What's the deal with Jenova? Final Fantasy VII Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 10 май 2023
- In this episode we look at heavens dark harbinger, the calamity from the skies, and the latent antagonist that causes much of the ills in Final Fantasy VII through its experimented cells - Jenova. Here we consider Jenova's design, its role in the FF7 story that helped elevated the game into the cyberpunk genre, and the future of Jenova and Sephiroth as the Final Fantasy VII Remake continues.
If you enjoy this episode you may enjoy my other Final Fantasy lore episodes:
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In this FF7 review we consider:
- Jenova and Sephiroth backstory
- Jenova reunion theory and Professor Hojo
- Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Jenova
- Sephiroth vs Jenova who's in control?
- Jenova origins
- Jenova design
- Lucrecia Sephiroth's mother - the real one!
- Jenova as B-Movie style sci-fi parasite and similarities to alien movies
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#FF7 #ff7Rebirth #Jenova 
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If Jenova were to be the one actually in control in the Remake series, or even if they weren’t, I think it’d be fascinating to see Sephiroth and Jenova come into conflict over their own specific motivations
I like this
This Is what is happening.
Jenova won in the OG Loop.
You mentioned the blob, but I feel like Jenova is more closely related to the alien from the movie “the thing”.
Both are shapeshifters. Both want to destroy the planets race. Both can have copies of themselves, are locked away until they are found and released into the world, and both turn into abominations when confronted.
Yeah, how can you miss out "The Thing"? Its like a 1:1 copy of that movie, of course the Carpenter 80ies version.
However, assimilation done by Jenova is more subtle, done with infusing its cells into the body and some mind games in dreams.
Its more like who goes there. While the thing was close, it never captures the malice or brilliance of the alien. It just feels like shapeshifting beast, not a superior organism in every fashion outwitting and killing the crew one by one.
Babe wake up a new Alleyway Jack video just dropped. And great topic. Sephiroth overshadows a lot of Jenova as one of the main enemies. Jenova is a good take on an otherworldly, alien, malevolent entity. Unlike Sephiroth, Jenova continues enigmatic with unanswered questions.
I think most people overlooked Jenova in favour of Sephiroth when playing the game. Jenova doesn't have a personality and easily comes off as this mindless organic thing, like a virus. It's very easy to assume that Sephiroth is behind everything.
But, I've seen a few analysis videos lately that bring up a good argument that Jenova was the mastermind the whole time and Sephiroth was just its puppet. And if one were to try to make Sephiroth sympathetic (which I don't really agree with) you would play into that plot more.
Framing Jenova as the puppetmaster is less to make Sephiroth sympathetic, but rather, to not make him a Villainous Gary Stu that overshadows the other antagonists of the game through contradictory willpower and "because magic" entirely offscreen. After all, if his will were so strong as to overpower an eldritch alien, he would never have broken down mentally over knowing that he wasn't what he was raised to think he was.
And if he gained all of the knowledge within the Lifestream, he would have known that Jenova was not his birth mother (for being thousands of years too old and too "dead" to carry him to term naturally) and thus would have learned of Lucrecia and Hojo. If he were in control of the Reunion, he would *doubly* know of Lucrecia as she's encased in crystal, and forced her to be part of the Reunion. Are we to believe that Lucrecia's own will is stronger than Sephiroth's that she would resist him? Instead she vaguely dreamed of him but never knew for certain whether he was dead.
Even then, if he were in control of the Reunion and those with Jenova's cells are gathering "to Sephiroth" as the "mastermind" of the phenomenon, the second iteration of the reunion would not still be centering upon Jenova's head in Advent Children and leading the remnants and children to Midgar; it would go to wherever Sephiroth's body still remained in the Northern Crater.
That's always how i understood it but it's not what Square wanted it seems.
Expect her only two spoken lines, are stating that sephiroth and cloud are both her and fates puppets.
Expect her only two spoken lines, are stating that sephiroth and cloud are both her and fates puppets.
It's fun to marvel at the way that VII balanced such a cast of personal and impersonal villains. Between Sephiroth, Jenova, Hojo and Shinra, all of them with distinct motivations and loyalties. They aren't an organized group of villains at all - and yet there is a strong coherence between all of them, even when Shinra nearly become anti-heroic and engage in some degree of atonement and redemption.
You can see how VII iterated off of how villains had been treated in past titles. It moved away from the "Man behind the Man" thing from III and IV (Cloud of Darkness & Zemus/Zeromus) - which pretty much what happened again in VIII and to a large extent IX. It was very ambitious, and you can see its influence in later titles, particularly in X with regard to having a Personal and Impersonal antagonist, with Yu Yevon/Sin taking Jenova's place and Jecht taking Sephiroth's.
Great stuff.
Given how Jenova appears in the Remake, I think it definitely fits the archetype of the “unknowable cosmic entity from the stars” that suddenly enters the midst of humans. It’s almost Lovecraftian in that way, particularly during the boss fight with Jenova Dreamweaver in how it projects itself into the heroes’ minds. I enjoy the mystery that surrounds it overall, and I think it adds a layer of menace when facing it directly.
I always saw Jenova as a JRPG version of "the thing" we will never know its true form or if it even really has one.
I can't remember where I read it. But I remember seeing that when Sephiroth fell into the lifestream he gained the knowledge of the planet. So he should know that Hojo and Lucrecia are his parents.
Also my theory ever since Dirge is that Jenova is a corrupt Omega Weapon from another planet
How so, even in the original it was shown that people infected by jenova cant reenter the stream, and it was shown that hojo ran tests on literally every one he meet that wasn't a executive. There would be no memories in the stream that would have this knowledge.
Without Jenova arriving and trying to kill the Cetra nothing in the lore would've happened. She is the main villain the same way Morgoth in Tolkein's mythology is the underlying main evil even though you never really follow it and interact with it too much. It is the catalyst for the whole legacy.
The thought of jenova silently shapeshifting into a form that would resonate with Sephiroth prior to their encounter is beyond eerie.
Jenova is Secret of Mana's Thanatos.
Thanatos.
Thanatos! (at least primarily).
While comparing Jenova to the Thing is fair (the lower tentacles do seem suspect in the Jenova Birth/Life/Death forms, although FFV's tree-like roots Exodus could be another influence), other influences are at hand (others in the chat have mentioned FFIII's Cloud of Darkness, which is accurate in terms of a feminine figure/Jenova's bareness in the tank).
The orb on Jenova's right shoulder also references Zeromus's orbs from FFIV (I believe) as well as foreshadowing the "orb" on Sephiroth's right shoulder as well on his one-wing in the Sepher Sephiroth fight.
But I have found odd design similarities between Jenova and Thanatos (presence of skulls/skull-masks, "hands" in the final form, even the collar and "head-dress", use of lasers, use of purple color in general, a cult formed from unwilling residents from a kingdom/village area (the Pandoran ruins/Nibelheim village).
The Jenova latin phrase/portmaneau "new god" is probably taken from Trials of Mana, as two of the main villains in the ending branches say it- "Jenova" is just an easier way of coining the term with a name.
4:00 To be honest, both Sephiroth and Jenova are homages to various Final Fantasy villains and even villains from the Mana series. Kitase DID work on Final Fantasy Adventure (Seiken Densetsu I), and even Sephiroth is trying to keep the legacy of his ancestors "alive" in the same way as Julius did in FFA, imo. And both are the "sole survivors" of said "empires".
4:25 Appendages that resemble the number VII or count to seven. Birth/Life/Death also has a skull mask with a half-fanged jaw (like a cat), except it has seven teeth.
Great videos man! I'm finding myself watch one by one of these
Always love hearing about Jenova. THX 👍
cant believe bro is still under 10k hes gonna be living in the alleyway forever
Like many things in Final Fantasy VII, they are obvious in the context of what came before in the series. Jenova is the same Evil Witch Archetype as the Cloud of Darkness from Final Fantasy III, just tweaked to be a space witch. Final Fantasy VII is also interesting because, in every single game prior, the villain's final transformation to that of a god/demigod was complete, but both jenova and sephiroth do not complete their transformations before being defeated. Jenova BIRTH would appear to be forming around the heart with fur, perhaps taking the form of a Sphynx or some type of beast deity.
Why yes, I did read the title like it was the set up of a Seinfeld joke
My opinion is just based on the raw 1997 version of FFVII not any sequels or prequels or the remake:
This is little bit like Larvos in Chrono Trigger, if you think about it. That alien did not have much of a personality either, had no use for cell infections, but was the Meteor all by himself, so he was allready summoned and his impact ended the reign of the dinosaurs.
And Magus was not the main antagonist either, but looked like one, both Magus and Sephiroth were playable, too in their games.
So, i don't buy into Sephiroth beeing the main antagonist, even if he is in control of Jenova's legacy he is just a very tragic character more like an antihero who did go rogue.
Compare this to Kefka in FFVI - Kefka was never known as hero, unlike Sephiroth, both have undergone some experiments that enhanced their performance in combat, but in Kefka's case some of those experiments went completly wrong and he got mad and evil doing really villain like things, more so than Sephiroth, he actually managed to destroy the planet and caused a lot of heartless crimes, before it.
Sephiroth on the other side, only went mad when he was close to Jenova at Niflheim, think about that one. The illusion of free will does not mean anything, if you still work for the greater cause, meaning destroying the planet to absorb the life stream, something Jenova planned for thousands of years.
If Jenova is indeed working like the Thing in Carpenters remake movie, Jenova is 100% in control of everything, but its more subtle done in FFVII, which i think was a great idea.
It might, be that its easier to portray Sephiroth as the villain in modern times for SquareEnix, because he is a humanoid to relate, to and make PR with, but it makes of course absolutely no sense whatsoever, in the context i have answered in my post here. He is no Kefka. He is not even remotely as evil as him he actually is the tragic hero in FFVII.
Nowaday i hear the The Thing theme in my head when it come to jenova.
By ilfana account, jenova could deceive her people by assuming any form...
Yunaleska from ffX is jenova in ff7. After the planet was cleansed from geostigma in ff7 AC. She slept in the life stream until she could recreate her body as a human summoner during ffX. Or, and this is a stretch…. But after being defeated in FFX, Yunaleska used the farplain/life stream to travel back in time to FF7 and take over the planet. She did it because normal ppl couldn’t Summon/use magic except for the cetra who were the only ppl who could use magic at the time. I’m figuring she traveled back in time because there were less ppl who could challenge her power.
Compare yunaleska’s 1st and second form to jenova’s 1st and second form…. 🤯
I find the question of, did sephiroth control jenova or did jenova control sephiroth to be very interesting 😊
There is no question. Not only does Hojo clarify that Sephiroth himself moved Jenova from the Shinra building. But Nojima (who wrote most of the story) confirms this as well in the ultimania.
@@ericrhodes5174 it could be a different story beat, or just an interesting twist to a story we all know that Sepiroth is the one in control, don't be such a Debbie downer
Good video but you forgot something?!? You forgot to mention the thing from another world that's probably the best reference to sci-fi horror!
What I find interesting is, Ultimecia of FF8 is heavily criticized for being passive and indirect as a villain. Jenova almost never gets that criticism. Jenova manipulates Sephiroth, fans applaud that. Ultimecia manipulates Edea and the other sorceresses and it gets heavily criticized.
Call me a douchebag if you like for what I'm about to say:
But I've always cringed at the idiots that idolize Sephiroth so much that can't even think that the "Sephiroth" that's always getting in Cloud's way, is not a Jenova clone.
This Sephiroth is always inviting Cloud to join "him", "embrace him" and let it into his mind and heart.
WHO COULD THAT BE BUT JENOVA?
It's even stated in the game when Sephiroth describes Jenova as having a "Smile with an Etheral Grace" at all times.
Which is exactly what "Sephiroth" started doing all the time after he went mad.
Jenova doesn't need to overcome Sephiroth's will if "she" could just let him believe he's in control while it pulls the strings behind his mind. So, sure ok. We think he's in command of Jenova but that doesn't bother "her" at all if it gets the job done.
I do love how you FINALLY point out that the name "Jenova" and "her" assigned gender and shape, are probably one of it's deceptions.
We don't know it's real name, and its real shape. The times we've fought it is just remnant biomass that is named "Jenova this and that".
But Jenova is a celular intelligence. You can't get rid of it until you find EACH and EVERY cell.
Like it usually says: "I'll never be a memory".
What if Jenova is actually Terra? From FF6?
😮
True answer to Sephy and Jenova:
Jenova isn’t pulling the strings, a common and easily made misconception, especially to those who haven’t read Nojima’s Ultimania Omega and who take the original game at face value. What was and is clear when this game came out and to this day, however, is that much of it is vague and open to interpretation without the proper lens, which lends itself well to being that artistic work of art in a literary sense. But I’m still happy to bring to you evidence to the claim using only the original game and it’s ultimania guide- It might seem long, but is made much shorter when you realize the next 4 paragraphs are the main premise: the second 4 paragraphs after are merely extra evidence to the claim, but lets begin:
So I took it upon myself to find the exact pages within the Ultimania Omega that pinpoint the Jenova/Sephiroth topic and have found some very interesting information that actually states that both Sephiroth and Jenova are involved together, but there’s a big asterix on the “both” and “Jenova” parts to this.
There are actually pages dedicated completely to parsing which specific Sephiroth sightings are Sephiroth or Jenova (pg. 212), but again, there’s still a caveat to the latter. I had a hard time translating that particular page, but I believe my simple layout in the next two paragraphs states it accurately.
Beginning with Sephiroth, anything and everything to do with Cloud and the Sephiroth clones who had Jenova cells injected into them (the black cloaked people who were mentally broken from the Nibelheim fire and experimentally tested upon by Hojo) are being controlled by Sephiroth. That’s confirmed clearly on pg. 211 on a picture excerpt, the second from the bottom. The exact quote states:
“Reunion is an ability as a
Jenova (part/cell), but orders to Sephiroth Copies are for (from) Sephiroth as their master.” (Direct translation, but anything in parentheses here is actually what I believe the imperfect translation is saying. I don’t think any of my additions are stretches, merely clarifications that make it easier to read).
It also explains why Cloud, at the end of FF7, has the final internal battle in his subconscious with Sephiroth in his most human form, flesh exposed to further emphasize his mortal image, with not a single sign of Jenova to be found nearby.
The other part to it is Jenova, more specifically her body parts (throughout the game, not including the one named SYNTHESIS at the end) which as I stated before, are confirmed to be acting purely on the impulse of mimicking Sephiroth’s will instinctively, even if there was a time thousands of years ago where she was alive and aware of the use of her abilities to shapeshift, deceive, close proximity, and infect. So during FF7 proper she’s not conscious of this, and also Sephiroth is not directly controlling her, but she is still carrying out his will instinctively because she’s instinctively mimicking his personality, memories, desires, and thus his will. She is simply a husk of her former self, the same way the Cetra are also not conscious anymore, but expressed now through the judgement of the planet. So instead of being more of a puppet being controlled by Sephiroth, she’s really more of a minion, albeit one for a super being who is congruent with her instinctive purpose. This is also clearly confirmed on pg. 211, on the second large paragraph of the page:
“Once upon a time (said in this way as to insinuate not anymore), Jenova used this ability to get close to the Ancients and plant a virus in them, causing them to die.”
Continuing in that very same paragraph, again on pg. 211, it’s even confirmed some of Cloud’s front/personality/memories during the beginning of FF7 that carry throughout the game are not just Zack’s, but the Jenova cells within him instinctively copying Tifa’s memory of Cloud whenever they met just before the start OG FF7 before Cloud agreed to help Avalanche, where he started acting very funny and unstable until he meets Tifa. Tifa elaborates on this before they really delve deep into Cloud’s subconscious in the lifestream if my memory serves me well. The quote on that page states:
“Not only Jenova itself, but also those who possess the cell have the ability to speak (not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean exactly), albeit imperfectly. Just before the start of the story, Cloud, who had a mental breakdown, returned to a seemingly normal state as soon as he met Tifa. By Jenova’s ability within him, because Jenova’s cells read Cloud in Tifa’s memory and Cloud's ideal image, it formed a new personality” (which is the personality Cloud is expressing in the start of the OG FF7).
It’s confirmed again on pg. 213, where the quote states:
“Cloud, perhaps because he was weaker than ordinary people both mentally and physically, could not become a SOLDIER and could not even maintain himself as a Sephiroth copy like the other residents of Nibelheim, and his spirit completely collapsed. After reuniting with his childhood friend Tifa in Midgar, he was supported by a false personality that was neither a copy of himself nor his original self.”
These examples are here to show how Jenova(‘s remains) can have her (their, in relation to her remains) abilities instinctively (also to say unconsciously) work in other aspects even outside of the Jenova/Sephiroth original debate.
So while both Sephy and Jenova are involved and shown in Sephiroth’s image, sometimes it’s Sephy actually taking control (like the cases of Cloud and those in black cloaks) and sometimes it’s an instinctive Jenova part, which instinctually mimics the shape, memories, and will of Sephiroth, again more like a minion, as Sephiroth isn’t actually directly controlling her 3 main parts, but she is robotically going through the motions of doing what she does as a mimic, and she has most likely instinctively mimicked what would most closely serve her instinctive purpose of destroying a planet and moving on to the next one to do the same. Sephy probably learns of Aeris’ death on his own, as she went back to the lifestream he was inhabiting when she passed (maybe Sephiroth also has some way of learning what parts of his will are carried out by her parts somehow as well? Not sure and can’t speak to it atm, but just a thought that came to my mind along this logical path of thought).
Something else that speaks to Sephiroth and his power is stated on pg. 213 regarding why some like Cloud get overcome, some like Zack don’t, but again mainly why Sephy has his power:
“The case of Sephiroth is extremely special. Until he learned the secret of his birth, he lived as a human despite his legendary strength, and five years ago he began to walk a different path from humans.
However, instead of being placed under Jenova's control, he seizes Jenova's initiative and controls their actions. This fact makes us feel the extraordinary strength of the life form Sephiroth.”
It’s also stated within the book that Sephiroth does officially die in Nibelheim 5 years ago (around the same pages mentioned already but if you want a specific passage I’d gladly go back in and find it), showing within FF7 proper itself how the great mechanic of the lifestream that speaks to the beautiful theme of life that the game is conveying is also what allows Sephiroth to be this Lovecraftian type fear and entity, one who does not die or completely cease, always looming, who can actually come back to the surface through the means of a weak/broken mind (or possibly even a willing participant).
Please let me know if you would like pdfs of these pages as well in case you would like to copy and paste them into translation programs to see it for yourself. Pdfs of the Ultimania Omega can also be found on google, as well as more translations about these topics and many other pages of support from the Ultimania Omega on gamefaqs.com (can also provide that to you as well). I’d also love to hear your opinion on all this as well. Let me know if you have anything you’d like to share.
"those who haven’t read Nojima’s Ultimania Omega"
Really? Let's look at what the Ultimania Omega for the original game says!
PG 52-53
*Sephiroth*
_A former hero who became the Planet's enemy_
"Five years ago, he learned the secret behind his birth and *underwent a sudden change. Behaving as if he were Jenova itself,* he enacts a brutal plan to seize the Planet's life and eradicate humanity."
*Situation*
"Sephiroth was a heroice figure [...] However, after discovering the secret behind his birth in Nibelheim five years ago, *he became Jenova itself, hell-bent on destruction.*"
*Personality*
"Although he acted cool and indifferent, he did possess a human side when he served as a SOLDIER. *However, after becoming the embodiment of Jenova, it seems his personality as an individual faded away.*"
---
No less than three different times is it mentioned that _Sephiroth became Jenova,_ not the other way around, and that his original personality has been subsumed.
Only one line, in the section of *Sephiroth's Will and Jenova's Will* frames the possibility that he took over as _a question:_ "but could it be that Sephiroth's will actually took control of Jenova?"
@@ultimamage3 This could also be found on page 53:
“Sephiroth Copies all over the world murmur the name of Sephiroth and gather for a reunion. It seems that Jenova's will ate Sephiroth's heart as a human, but in fact, Sephiroth's will is what supports Jenova.”
That being said, I don’t think we disagree on as much as you think we do. I can completely agree with the fact that Sephiroth was a normal human being before he spent a week reading Gast’s findings within the Shinra mansion, and it was only after that point did he start to lose a part of himself/his humanity.
At this point in the story of FF7, Jenova is a virus, one that is used for the purpose of enhancing strong-minded SOLDIERS to become physically stronger. However, if used on a specimen with a weak mind, it can run rampant through that person. The Jenova cells Sephiroth carried were completely dormant before that event in the Shinra Mansion. And he, not being able to not accept his origins, made himself susceptible to those Jenova cells within him as soon as there was a door to mental weakness. He then, as he starts to question his existence, starts experiencing mental lapses and mental breaks, grabbing his head in pain, not at all different from the mental breaks Cloud experiences.
I’m sure you’ve heard of “Ore Sephiroth vs. Watashi Sephiroth”, but I can quickly summarize. Simply put, it’s a difference in Japanese pronouns used at different times that separates the Sephiroth who is fully in control of his faculties (Ore- before he learned his origins) between the Sephiroth who, after becoming mentally vulnerable when having a difficult time accepting his origins, finally became susceptible to the Jenova cells he was carrying (Watashi Sephiroth). They then began to infect him as he cracked, again, no different to Cloud and his breaks. It is still Sephiroth regardless, just lost, no different to the way Cloud is still Cloud in FF7. He’s also just lost, but the journey of FF7 allows us to find him within himself. Sephiroth is not quite so lucky.
The Jenova cells within Cloud shattered him instantly due to his own personal trauma of witnessing his hometown burn, personal lack of self esteem, and personal failure. He was not mentally equipped enough to handle the SOLDIER treatment and was vulnerable from the start. The Jenova cells within him made him mirror a false personality, Zack’s personality, which Cloud seemingly used as a guide to cope and find some level of false foundation and protection in, but which also left him open to be deceived.
With Sephiroth, the Jenova cells within him made him continue to mirror his false (more like misunderstood) existence after he learned of his origins because he had no other guide to follow but Jenova’s, his supposed mother according to Shinra, and who Gast mistakingly believed to be a Cetra. She is clearly not. And Sephiroth respected Gast’s words way more than he did Hojo’s, so he continued to believe that he was an Ancient and that his family was wronged.
In both cases, they “mirror” these falsities because that is how the nature of Jenova, a shapeshifter/doppelganger, acts when literally within humans in this world. It creates deception (or opportunities for deception) through false realities and half truths (something Sephiroth himself embraces when deceiving Cloud, and the player, in the original). As I’ve evidenced already, Nojima has stated that Jenova is no longer living like she once was. And, even when she was in her unadulterated form 2000 years ago, was never able to “pull any strings”.
What Jenova used to do was shapeshift to the likes of the Cetra’s past loved ones, deceive them to close proximity, and infect them into monsters. She was never able to “puppet” them. It’s only Sephiroth who can hijack human bodies in black cloaks for control, as he is something Jenova isn’t, a human heir who was born of her and who inherited her abilities. What Jenova can control are her other body parts across the world while her head regenerates and resurrects into a new form at the Norther Crater the same way Sephiroth’s body does he same.
I had to give you all that information about Sephiroth and Jenova to articulate the nuance of their nature, because it’s not simply “she’s controlling him like a puppet and he has no control over his actions”. She also helped “control” Cloud to give Sephiroth the Black Materia on multiple occasions, but the correct word is not “control”, it’s really “influence”, as only Sephiroth has the potential to actually take over and control Cloud. Either way, Cloud was still Cloud, and Sephiroth is still Sephiroth. What this really has to do with that people are unclear about is how Jenova cells affect those within this world. However, Sephiroth is more intimately tied to Jenova than anyone else, being born of her from the ground up, so much so to the point that he inherited her nature and acts his own will in her name upon false pretenses/deceptive influence. They’re partners at best. You fight both of them at the end after all, where he is the final boss EVEN AFTER she’s defeated.
@@miki49 After Jenova is defeated and Cloud faces off against Sephiroth for the last time, it's a vastly inferior man who can be killed with a 1HP counterattack. For better or worse, Jenova made Sephiroth what he is, and after his mental break in Nibelheim, he's no longer himself in the way that matters.
The game makes a point to highlight that the difference of what makes someone a "human" and what makes them a "monster" is how they hold regard for their kin; that Sephiroth gave himself to Jenova makes him no longer Sephiroth or a human, unlike Cloud who was still himself in some capacity; Cloud's childhood memories could still reason with him, he remembered his hometown in Nibelheim, he recognizes Tifa, his image of himself as a SOLDIER is different than even Zack's personality as much as people say "he absorbed Zack's memories" (he doesn't already recognize Aerith, or Zack's parents in Gongaga, etc). Meanwhile, Sephiroth .... ?
Had Sephiroth an actual strong will, he would've just paid Hojo a visit and killed him, not done a whole 180 into "becoming Jenova" and having his human heart smothered by a xenovirus. Instead he went wholly into "eradicate life", died, gained the knowledge of the Lifestream for 5 years at which point he'd already know that Jenova is not a Cetra, _still_ was bent on eradicating life in the way Jenova wants, appears to not know who Cloud is when meeting him aboard the Junon ship, and while stewing in the Lifestream during the times of Advent Children, completely discards as many memories as he can, even his own sense of what he looks like.
He is not Sephiroth in the way that matters. The series makes it clear he's a husk of hate as much as Jenova is instinctually anti-life.
@@ultimamage3 No I’m not talking about when Cloud faces Sephiroth in the lifestream in his 1 v. 1 mind battle, I’m talking about Safer Sephiroth and the actual physical battle that occurs on the planet in the Northern Crater. The party fights Safer Sephiroth who continues to physically exist of his own accord as he would EVEN AFTER the party kills Jenova. That’s simply to say that he exists on his own, whether “himself in the way that you think it matters” or not. It’s to say that he is influenced by the Jenova cells within him, but he IS NOT somehow being “puppeted” by her. That’s what that point was intended to make clear to those who claim otherwise.
And it’s clear Sephiroth can’t be who he is, the way he is, without Jenova. We both know that and I’m not sure how mentioning that is evidence towards anything. Cloud could have easily gotten to that point of loss (of identity) if he didn’t have the friends or support to help him. In fact, he did reach that point, and Tifa was able to walk him through it within the lifestream at Mideel and even learned the truth herself, as she couldn’t remember since Sephiroth fatally harmed her. She would have died if Cloud and Zangan didn’t show up, but I digress. As far as Cloud taking on Zack’s memories goes tho, he took from Zack what he saw in him. It’s not simply that “Cloud absorbed Zack’s personality through psychological osmosis”. Not sure who is out there saying that, but Cloud doesn’t even have Zack’s personality. It’s some mannerisms and some memories from what Cloud saw when with Zack. It’s not that complicated my dude.
I’d also like to hear where you think the game specifically makes the point to highlight that “the difference of what makes someone a ‘human’ or a ‘monster’ is how they ‘hold regard for their kin’”. We know Cloud had some of himself, some capacity of his own personality and memories because the game showed us that perspective. We saw a younger Cloud within him trying to reach the outer layers of his being. We were shown nothing conclusive about any of Sephiroth remembering or not remembering anything about himself, or if he too had a possible voice trying to reach his surface. You can assume that he has no internal personality and voice calling out to his crazed side, that we see and know every side there is to know about Sephiroth’s psychological struggle, or that he’s past any point of return/hope to be open to the truth, but you don’t have as much evidence of that as you think you do, and I’m about to tell you why you don’t:
YES, SEPHIROTH DOES HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE ANCIENTS, but what does that mean exactly? The knowledge of the Ancients, essentially the lifestream, holds the information of all experience of all life that has lived and passed away back into the lifestream’s collective consciousness. The life energy brings life to the living, the living accumulates experience, and then it goes back to the planet. But who pertaining to the actual origins of Sephiroth’s has passed their life energy back to the lifestream? None of them. None at all. Hojo is still alive. Lucrecia is still alive. Vincent being a possible blood father of Sephiroth who was in a love triangle between Lucrecia and Hojo is still alive. Sephiroth still doesn’t know the truth of who his true mother and father are, and even we don’t have actual proof regarding who his father is with 100% certainty. All we have is Hojo’s word claiming he is, just assuming that Vincent and Lucrecia never slept together. So I believe that point doesn’t hold water like you think it does.
Yes Sephiroth does discard much of his memory as possible between FF7 and AC, but he still uses Cloud and his memory of him as an anchor to that image of himself that Cloud holds. I see you conveniently left that part out.
Not at all sure what you’re trying to say in your second to last paragraph about Sephiroth “actually having a strong will and just paying Hojo a visit”. That makes no sense to me why you think taking that action would somehow be the act that one with a strong will would take. How it unfolded seemed pretty natural to me and doesn’t require that much reading into, but I’d be willing to hear that point framed in a different way.
Lastly, I thought i made this clear, but when Sephiroth “doesn’t know Cloud” on the Junon ship, that’s because that isn’t Sephiroth, it’s Jenova, a part of Jenova that the head of Jenova is mentally moving in the image of Sephiroth. Pg. 212 in the Ultimania Omega even parses every single individual sighting of Sephiroth, specifying which one is actually Sephiroth and which is actually Jenova.
I’ve already put it simply that Sephiroth hijacks control of the black cloaked figures and that Jenova, whose head Sephiroth took with him into the lifestream in Nibelheim, which also regenerated (into what you fight at the end of FF7 proper), is what’s controlling her body parts, even including the body part of Jenova that killed Aeris. Sephiroth himself did not physically or mentally (by hijacking a clone) kill Aeris. Jenova did, as Sephiroth tried to use Cloud to kill Aeris, and he was almost successful, but was ultimately unable to. Sephiroth and Jenova believed it was in their best interest to have Aeris killed, and when Sephiroth couldn’t use Cloud to commit the murder, Jenova did her part and murdered Aeris herself, as Sephiroth and Jenova are working in tandem.
I watched a lengthy analysis of the tendency for Japanese video games to include a god that the player has to kill, and Jenova was extensively mentioned.
According to the author of that video, Jenova is a representation of capitalism, perceived in Japan as an alien (foreign) force that came to corrupt and consume the country. Capitalism being the newest "god" in a long line of false gods that plagued Japan with false promises.
This would be the reason for Jenova's name. It's a portmanteau of Jehova and Nova, so essentially it means "New God".