Odon: "The Qur'an describes the CREATORS OF ISLAM"!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- It is obvious that there is a 'missing link', which Muslims don't like to admit exists, between the historical environment in the 7th century, and that which the 9th-10th Century's SIN scenario leaves us. Too often the Standard Islamic Narrative (SIN) simply gets the wrong people in the wrong places doing the wrong things and at the wrong times.
However, since Muslims don't think this is a problem, we are going to have to solve it for them.
Odon has been listening to your questions about this very problem in the description boxes, and wants to help many of you who are confused concerning who exactly were all these groups of people who had an influence on the origins of Islam between the 7th century and the 9th century.
Consequently, in this episode he has returned to define and discuss (using the Qur'an as his source) who the main players were, and how they helped to create Islam as we know it today.
You may not agree with Odon's descriptions and analysis, and may think he is wrong in his assumptions for that which he considered happened in the 7th - 8th centuries.
Perhaps you feel that he has misconstrued what the Qur'an was actually saying, or misinterpreted the peoples described in its pages.
If so, tell us why in the comment box below, and Odon will look at your comments and if they are important or valid he will come back to you with his rejoinders.
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2021
(56,680) Music: "Country Girl" by aleksound, from filmmusic-io
Just completed viewing this presentation, I think this is one of the most important videos ever on the origins of Islam. Utterly brilliant! Well done, Odon and Jay!
1:07:27 mins.
Christians & rabbicinal Jews labelled as enemy to the ummah/believers,(the are two Jewish Groups;those with Christ and those who are not).
Definition for Christian/mushrik,may have a better definition.
sorry not got reference,yet sh.r.k root may also mean Shine(I read it somewhere).
Odon reminds me of Inspector Jacque Kloosou in an investigation on the Origins of Izlam. Wonderful work from him. God bless him
I love it!! Notre inspecteur, par excellence!
Ajay I see you all over the places from Adam to Dr. Jay Smith channel. Great! me you are devout follower of Christ like me. Nice
I loved Sir Odon work which Mel has same things to say about the history of Jerusalem of same period.
@@anjaliroymukherji1086 Showers of blessing be upon you sister. When you see me again, please do greet me and I'll do the same in the live streams. Odon's work opening a whole level of understanding into the study on Izlamic origins. A real eye opener
Not a great idea to compare him with that bumbling idiot inspector Jacques Clouseau of the Pink Panther movies.
Maybe some other famous French detective?
This has to be one of the most enlightening hour and a half of my life. Thank you, Odon, for your research, and for compiling and presenting all the materials. It really does make sense. For someone who has always questioned the Standard Islamic Narrative, and trying yet failing to reconcile how the Islamic faith could be anything but an enemy to the Christian faith. It was always inconsistent how the standard narrative would paint the polytheists being the mutual enemies, with their initial Jewish and Christian allies (People of the Book), and later were warred upon after "betrayal" and breaking of treaties.
I live in a Muslim majority country, where defending your faith against Muslim theological attacks can be seen as an insult to the Islamic faith.
Thank you, Jay and Odon.
Thank you for standing strong in a Muslim country, where that involves such a sacrifice.
It would be interesting to see if some Muslims accept the revisionist history of Islam but try to keep the metaphysical claims. I’ve seen Mormons do this. They take some of the cutting edge theories in pseudo-physics like the possibility of multiple/infinite universes and apply it to the Mormon concept of many Gods of many planets.
As a man who grew up devouring every episode of Tintin or "Kuifje" as I knew the series more than 50 years ago I love seeing Odon and his pipe.
I feel like I stepped into the series.
Great work Odon.
It's important and constructive to study the historical Mohammed and the early Muslims. Something for good reasons the historians are afraid to do.
But the world simply has to take a critical look and analyze the ideology if it is to face it effectively.
To me the analogies between 20th century national socialist ideology and islam are more than obvious.
Imagine if the natsees (misspellings intentional) had been successful and the followers eventualy deify their leader Hytler. Their holy books are filled with inhumane horrors much the way the core-ann is filled with morally repugnant deeds, but for fear of retribution no one dares to point them out or take a look at the early founders of the religion in the early 20th century.
Then 1400 years later a man like Odon comes along looking at the historical evidence and begins to demystify the great prophet Hytler.
This is pretty much what brave modern scholars are starting to do and I am so happy about that.
Too long has this evil ideology been shielded from criticism.
Well illustrated!
Überhaupt mentiobs Kuifje.
Tintin.
Dis you know the song from Bianca Castafiore is ' ah je riz de me voir si belle dans cette miroir. '
It comes from the opera Mephisto from Massenet, where Fausto sells his soul to the devil for money and gives Margarita (La Castafiore) nice jewels.
The Jewelaria.
'
Odon should be Odon PhD. An immense amount of research and incredibly intelligent integration of information to reach these startling conclusions.
Isn't 2021 turning out to be another great year for exposing the origins of Islam? Great job guys! This is so exciting! 40 minutes in and I'm blown away how good this is. I think this is the clearest explanation Odon has ever given on these terms. It is so clearly explained.
Thank you Mel
It is a wonderful presentation, and amazing research, but I must confess, I'm a tad confused as to whether some presenters believe in the 'Mohammed of Islam' or not?
@@simonhengle8316 As I told Jay in our first video, the question of the existence of the "Mohammed of Islam" is not that relevant in order to understand the actual origins of Islam. Wether he existed or not, wether he preached or not some of the sermons we still find in the Quran, Islam would have emerged anyway. Should he have existed as a preacher (or one of the preachers) of what would become the Quran, we now know he was not preaching on his own, he was part of a group composed of Jewish-Nazarenes religious teachers and Arab preachers, that preached to some Arabs.
@@OdonLafontaine
Thank you so much Odon, that is interesting and very useful 👍
Its going to be an avalanche of apostasy soon.
From far away to the southeast, (I am from Banten Indonesia and I am born Muslim but study Islam orally through local Ulemas) I watched the vid till the end. Odon has explained clearly and succinctly the Qur'anic meaning of some words based on the historical context and setting of the audience referred by the Qur'an. I think I am definitely agreeable to what Odon has explained. There is not anything new to my understanding of the topic except the places and geographical setting, which Jay has been trying to expose that there is no reference whatsoever to Mecca in Saudi Arabia--- the proposition that I myself am wondering.
Immanuel Christ Iesous already returned, just as He promised. He returned to the original problematic "jerusalem," and stomped on the ieuds until His garments were saturated with their blood.
The sacerdotal fortified city of peace (a jerusalem) in the East was founded in the early 4th century AD, at a small ruined fort.
You're saying the Qhaz arrived in the later 4th century AD, just after the j😢4rerusalem was founded. They were literally contradicting Our Lord, so liars and murderers, just as He tells us. They were probably plotting to seize the Christian city and do exactly what they're doing now. They claim to be "jews, but do lie."
Oddly that word, "jew" was selectively added to the Holy Bible in the 18th century AD to confuse the unlearned. "Romans" are "the people of the Prince," Our Lord. None of the 3 "judahs" call themselves Ioudaios. Christ's royal line goes through to the royal lines of Greece and Persia to the judahites being called "Romans." They fulfilled prophecy when they ended the ieuds' AntiChrist Kingdom. They also rescued the few who weren't beheaded at the altar and cannibalized.
Further, they protected the family and friends of Our Lord from the ieuds who sought to murder them. Most of the apostles are buried in Europe, as is Abram.
Ioudaois were randoms, "those who inhabit," a geopolitical district called a judea or a iudeoRUM. There are many judeas and jerusalems, but the one in the Syrian desert is not Biblical Jerusalem. In fact, that Egypt isn't Biblical Egypt. That is Aeria, which was renamed Egypt by Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC. Biblical Jerusalem, Egypt, Syria, D'imasq, Persia, Babylon, Eden, etc. are elsewhere.
The promised Jerusalem is located by Rome, which was previously called, "The City." It is the city which established the hiero/heavenly peace/pax/salem.
The Holy Bible describes lands which in no way match the present lands.
@@lenormand4967 This is completely inaccurate and false. Please get yourself a KJ Bible and read it.
Off topic, but his English is improving really well!!!
Not a minor point... Odon is not an outgoing [corrected and sorry for my mistake] character to begin with... But being French I can assure you that he is struggling with English to get his message through! Big thanks to Jay for his facilitating role!
@@sebastiendefrance9986 What do you mean with "not an outspoken character"? I tend to be an outspoken person, on the contrary
@@OdonLafontaine My apologies! Tricked by my English 😂 I meant OUTGOING (extraverti) as compared with Jay! But OUTSPOKEN (franc) you are! Keep up the good work!
@@OdonLafontaine I think you have the demeanor of a gentle man. More of an introvert than an extrovert. I may be wrong, but you come across as a meek, gentle man. It could just be the accent that makes it seem that way
@@sebastiendefrance9986 👍
That was a fantastic episode. Kept my interest for the whole 90 minutes. Linguistic forensics is done all the time to the Bible, so it's great to see it applied to Islam. BTW, please tell Odon that his "Quranic Nazarene" term was not difficult for all of us. I understood the first time I heard you say it, it's Nazarenes in the world of the Quran. Similar to a Dickensian peasant or a Shakespearean villainess. A type of character endemic to a genre. If we treat the Quran as a piece of literature, we can probably squeeze more out of it. Thanks Jay and Odon.
ruclips.net/video/j4d8-AyDbeE/видео.html
@@umarmujaahid1136 Yes Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia. No, it's not near Mecca. A place isn't Mecca just because it's in Arabia. Your hadith tell you Allah sent no one to Arabia before Mohommad. No one -- no one -- no one -- was sent to Arabia before Mohammad. That's what your Mohammad said. You are calling your prophet a liar. You are sharing a video of an Israeli calling your prophet a liar.
Odon took a very dip dive further than what Yasir Quardi can ever dream of. Great work on splitting up the chaff (Well detailed).
To listen to the scholarly didactic lecture of Mr. Odon was an absolutely enlightening experience indeed ! Please continue with more no. of lectures in this series. Words of thanks are not enough to express my gratitude for Mr. Odon & Dr. Jay Smith both for your scholarly work.
You guys are doing world changing work.
they're not, staying inside of your home does not "change" nothing but going outside to meet people...........does.
ruclips.net/video/j4d8-AyDbeE/видео.html & ruclips.net/video/TZIEwUVQW8Y/видео.html
@@umarmujaahid1136 they reach thousands of people with every video lol
@@gavinadams4572 Again, only 20K views ? That's if the people are interesting on watching "religion" video.
Summon the elector counts!
My man@@MrDaftFunk
Quelle incroyable aventure totalement fascinante de linguistique comparative! Waaaaaou!
Jay, you are resting, yes?
Rest, Jay.
Man! This is exciting stuff.
Fell off my couch.
Thank you so much for this video.
Murad is suggesting that the first Muslims were from Central Asia. IT also may explain WHY most Muslims are NOT arabs.
I think what murad said was that the Umayyads were from central Asia..
that explains why earlier islamic writers were from central asia... the author of sahih bukhari for instance...
Also all the 12th & 13th century Asian influenced artwork & paintings.
Incredibly fascinating work! Well done gentlemen
Not since Richard the Lionheart have the Saracenes feared a Frank so much
Richard the Lionheart was Anglo, right.. that's what I see from the robinhood stories
ruclips.net/video/16TB1vSmNVY/видео.html
Now if only there was another Jan Sobieski.
@@roshlew6994 Yes, but of Norman descent.
@@moorek1967 My grandmother was Norman...
We need a scholarly text that outlines all these details and all the potential candidates in a timeline in one, all-encompassing book.
This is so gonna be good! 😁😁 Let's unveil this masquerade!
thanks Jay for organizing these presentations - Gob bless you & Odon
Thanks Odon for your incisive research and analysis. Excellent.
The Venn-like diagram on a timeline was quite novel to explain who is who when. Clever and helpful. Placing focus on Latakia and looking there in more detail is important to this discourse as we go on. The onomastic discussion was very good and important to understand what's going on. Superb work.
I would recommend featuring Dr Rev Christiaan Kappes who investigates historical pre Islam from a Christian perspective. Pa.
Epigraphy is my favorite. I love the coin discussions too. Can't wait for the video. It is a fascinating time.
Absolutely phenomenal. There is so much revelation and truth in Odon’s work. Bravo, cher frère!!
Just the unveiling of the word Kafir, coverers, puts so much of the SIN in a complete different perspective. For instance the traditional accusation of the corruption of the Bible could actually refer to the ‘ covering ‘ of the Torah by the Talmud. Fascinating! It is also impressive that the original Hebrew root was preserved in so many languages ( cover in English, couvrir in French). God’s unchanging and original intent for man to walk under the cover of his endless Grace! ❤️🙏
I'm not an expert, but everything Odon says makes sense. If, according to him, it is possible to understand Quran logically, I would very much like him to unpack the Islamic Dilemma. 😇 Question to Jay: if and where can all these slides can be downloaded? I would very much like to translate them into my language!
You can try this:
1. Screenshot the slide one by one
2. Convert them into one PDF file
3. Use Adobe Acrobat or else to recognize the letters
4. You can now use translator program or Google Translate
I use this trick, too
@@truthseeker7951 unfortunately it's too hard for me 😩
@@marekp8636 well let's hope Odon upload it on his website soon
He already did
Just looked at Dan Brubaker’s short video addressing those who objected to the portion of his book where he addresses the addition (or corrections) by inserting the word “Allah.”Looks like these are written to change the original wording stating “He” with Allah. If the early writings that later became part of the Koran were actually done with Jewish/Christian influences, then it is easy to understand why the later writers would want “Allah” to appear much sooner than it actually did to connect Allah back to creation.
Great Intellectual presentation and discussion backed with documentations and years of research !! Looking forward to lots more of eye opening Truths to be unveiled !! Kudos and keep up the good works you both !!
I agree with Jay: Odon's chart with the shifting meanings of the terms is a significant discovery. But...
What I see is that through 640 and the rupture of the failed apocalyptic Temple in Jerusalem Odon does an excellent job of bringing to light the initial motivations and actions of some of the Arabs who were the nucleus of what would become Islam. The correspondence between Nazarene and SIN theology regarding Jesus is striking (was the Messiah, was never crucified, is not God, will come back for the Last Judgment). And given the dating of the Sira, the Hadith and surviving Quran manuscripts, the SIN seems certain to have taken shape in the Abbasid period from 750. But the problem then is the next layer of the onion: the history from 640 to 750.
As a French speaker, I have the advantage of having been able to read Odon's book. This leads me to many questions, but I will concentrate on just one:
Odon mentions quite favorably the archeological and textual work of Dan Gibson on Petra as the original location of the Kaaba, as described in the Islamic tradition. But in Odon's work the linkage is unclear between qiblas pointed to Petra (which Odon cites) and the Temple built by the original Arab/Nazarene Umma.
Gibson, one could say, has largely attempted to rescue the SIN, claiming just one major rewrite, that of the location and identity of Mecca. Given Odon's work on the Nazarenes, this seems to undermine much of Gibson's work: Muhammad, inhabitant of Mecca and recipient of revelations, would not at all constitute the origins of Islam.
So, my question is: how did the cult surrounding the black stone come into the religion taking shape among the Believers? Odon, in his book, mentions Zubayr, as does Gibson. Odon agrees with Gibson that one should ascribe to Zubayr the selection of the site of the current Mecca and the transportation of the black stone away from Petra. But Odon does not really describe how a cult arose around Petra and the black stone, so much so that all qibla pointed towards it in the period 640(?)-750. If anything, Odon's work would seem to reinforce the much more widespread belief that the early qiblas point toward Jerusalem and the Temple of the Returned Jesus. After all, Gibson might have made measurement errors or, if Gibson's measurements are accurate, the convergence he found might be a coincidence due to the imprecision of tools from 640-750.
Given the reality that the black stone is a part of the SIN, this may be why Odon is ready to incorporate Gibson's work despite the apparent contradiction. It would appear to me that, given the early qiblas, the role of Petra may be larger than Odon has so far acknowledged. The Nazarene communities and the Quraysh communities were scattered in various directions, largely due to trade patterns, and perhaps the historical Muhammad did come from Petra. Perhaps in the period 570-640 the pilgrimage cult of the Nabateans towards Petra remained widespread among Arabs of the Levant and even had become syncretized with nascent Christian beliefs (this is in line with Arabs also being willing to abandon trinitarian theology, as Odon is positing). Perhaps in the aftermath of the failure of Jesus to return, Arabs reverted to pre-Christian belief systems.
So the Black stone that Muslims venerate isn’t even mentioned in the Quran?
I suspect that this coalition was a bit ecumenical, likely recruiting some non-Christian Arabs trying to find common ground between Jerusalem and Petra. When the coalition failed, the Arab believers retooled their beliefs to spin away from Jerusalem, and Petra was like an old comfortable shoe. We know the earliest qibla was Jerusalem, and then Gibson shows it became Petra after some sort of fallout. He wouldn't deny that. So it seems, after the coalition broke, the believers gave up on Jerusalem, spun away from the Jews, and turned to their familiar homeland of Petra. They descended on Petra to make that city the Jerusalem of the Arabs. This is probably where we get the hadiths of Mohammad cleaning out the kaaba. These new Arab believers were trying to legitimize their Arab culture to keep their old culture and make it monotheistic. Lo and behold, they do in fact treat it like a copy of Jerusalem, down to making a qibla for it. All of this actually fits in perfectly with Odon's model. In the fallout, they were in direct competition with Jerusalem, and suddenly "Mohammad" says Jews are the ultimate enemy. It was a polemic to steer believers away from Jerusalem. Gibson and Odon are actually proving each other.
@@hereweare9096 No, he definitely does bring up the black stone but it isn’t explained in any way.
@@CandanceIsMyName This makes sense. Given the scarcity of evidence, it may be impossible to figure out.
@@hereweare9096 Sorry I should have read your comment more carefully. I’m not sure if the stone is mentioned in the Quran.
Fascinating video. I would be interested in knowing the relationship of the Syrian ruling class today to the Nazarene sect that assisted in the creation of Islam. They claim to be Islamic but different from what is commonly proclaimed to be Islamic. Thanks for sharing Odon's work. In listening to many of your other videos you have made a lot of Petra as being central to understanding the progression of the Muslim religion south to Mecca. Odon does not mention this at all, maybe he will in future video's. Anyway thanks again.
This is an hypotheses suggested by the Lebanese scholar Joseph Azzi (Abu Musa al Hariri): the Nazarenes (Quranic Nazarenes) might be the ancestors of the Alawites (their Arabic name: Nosaïri, meaning "little Nazarenes")
The Alawite territories in Syria are the same as the Nazarene's.
One could find in the Alawatie creed (a very mysterious and secret creed) some common ground with the Nazarene creed
But apart from this (name+territories+very far fetched conjecture about a common creed), we have nothing. This is not very much to establish a relationship between Nazarenes and Alawites. But it is nonetheless an interesting and audacious hypotheses.
Good video Thank you for your efforts
Nevertheless, Surah 9 contains a lot of confusion, even in relation to the traditional Islamic narrative. We find that verse 30 of the same Surah makes Jews and Christians equally polytheists. On the other hand, in this surah, there is a verse that breaks all the conditions that were adopted in the process of collecting the Qur’an, one of the simplest (there must be at least two witnesses in order for the verses that will be added to the Othmaln version to be recognized). But verse 30 of Surah 9 has caused problems to this day, because a Muslim allows himself to marry a Christian or Jewish woman and she has the right to remain in her religion, but she must accept that her children to become exclusively Muslims, ((on the pretext that she is from the People of the Book)). While Muslims do not allow their women to marry a Christian or a Jew, even under the condition that their children to become Muslims, ((because they "Christian & Jewish" are polytheistic)).
This is a small part of the racial discrimination practiced against Christians and Jews in Islamic countries, while Muslims who immigrate to the secular West consider it a "legal right to practice these Islamic political traditions.". Unfortunately, Westerners, including most Christians, consider that there is absolutely no problem in marrying their daughters to Muslims or nonchristians in general, on the pretext that it is “personal freedom,” while Eastern Christians consider that this is in addition to being adultery, but it is acceptance of traitors who have joined their enemies but want to live among them, so this matter is completely rejected. And whoever practices it is considered outside his community and must be boycotted.. Rather, this matter was confirmed by the Apostle Paul himself in (Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14).
And this sura (parts of it) has also been found amoung the Sanaa manuscripts with a preaching instruction written at its beginning: _la taqul bismillah_ meaning "one does not say the basmala" ("In the name of God"). This is a unique feature that shows that this text was not considered sacred at the time of the writing of the Sanaa manuscripts (since one could write instructions in it as it were the actual text). It was something else. A sort of religious manual, or a catechism
@@OdonLafontaine As I explained in my second comment regarding the Quran, Hadith, Sunnah and Islamic history is like paradolia, the only thing that guarantees the survival of Islam is internal and external terrorism and left-wing hypocrites in the West today
@@ASHORSHEMAYA and oil money
Thank you, this is exactly how I feel in my spirit that it is inherently and morally wrong to allow those who offer up strange fire to a strange god, to be allowed to do so in Judeo-Christian nations. I am sickened every time I see this walking on the ground of YHVH’s people.
Interesting. The pieces are beginning to fall into place so we can see more and more of the whole picture!
Very Well Explained Odon...So we should expect more from u..Take time don't rush as u mentioned. GBU.
The early history of Islam is difficult and Odon is doing a great job of trying to make sense of it. My question would be - how come there was a split in the mid 7th century from the Quranic Nazareens and how come they became the enemy as the Muslims had a similar belief to them - they were basically Jews who believed that Jesus was a messenger but not a god, and that he would return. Very similar beliefs so how could they become enemies?
Just like Shia and sunni believe in the Quran and Allah , Muhammed And they are enemies 🤣🤣
So the Qureish were the nazarene from Lattaqie and maybe followers of Ali
And the Abbassides were nazarene from Jordan
Bhai ki baat mein dum hai. I think all the covenants between different groups were truly political and nothing to do with theology 🙏🙏👍👍
Amazing.. it all makes sense now..
More holes in standard islamic narrative..
ruclips.net/video/j4d8-AyDbeE/видео.html
@@umarmujaahid1136 so, you agree Islam is false 😅😂
Mecca didn't exist in pre-islamic times.🤔🥺
@@roshlew6994 "And it is He who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within [the area of] Makkah after He caused you to overcome them. And ever is Allah of what you do, Seeing." Holy Qur'an 48:24 talking about a city in Saudi. Mecca was there, before Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was born.
@@umarmujaahid1136 but, Mecca didn't exist in pre-islamic times bro🤗🤣😅😂
at 40:20 .. Mr. Odon, yes, there is one reference in Surah 5 to Christians in Verse 47, but in the same Chapter / Surah Verse 43 comes and concerns Jews and the Torah. But in Surah 2 and verse 113 he grouped them together, describing them as “both of them being the People of the Book.” but again in s. 13 v. 39 new form of word "ketab/ book" where it's said the Sourse / source of the Book "quran used the word .. mother .. of book the origin of books as torah gospil quran and others.
As you know that the Quran is a cumulative book that was collected in different circumstances and at different times, so even if we try to arrange the Quran or search for one word within the Qur’anic sentences and put those sentences in a special list, we cannot say that we have discovered the truth .. For me the Quran and Islamic history in general Like Pareidolia
Excellent 👍👍👍 Personally I for one belong to the community of Christians in India who trace their origin to Apostle Thomas. Here generally we're called 'nasrani', meaning the follower of Christ. According to our tradition Apostle Thomas established seven and a half churches in Malankara (part of present Kerala state). This church continued till it was discovered by Portuguese in 1498. Thereafter this church divided into Catholic and traditional churches. The resultant non-catholic church came under the Patriarch of Antioch. When British came, under the influence of CMS missionaries in Kottayam District in Kerala, reformation took place followed by a division of the Church into Mar Thoma Church (to which I belong) and the predecessor of the present Orthodox and Jacobite churches. Most of these facts can be seen from the judgments of various courts in the Church cases.
To be a follower of christ you are not to boast or purposefully put out " we are of the first ....... " its utterly meaningless and a Christian made today is as great as a Christian from yesterday. Has your south asian materialistic/prideful culture penetrated that of the principles of christ ?
Is Islam growing in India at all?
@@SimpleMinded221 Frankly I fail to understand how you're deciphering such an insinuation from my comment. If it has hurt your sentiment in any manner, I am sorry. However such parental admonition is uncalled for.
@@_John_P I don't know, can you enlighten me with facts?
@@roshinipe1967 ?
Very interesting, when you deal with a text of this sort, you can sometimes distinguish what people must have believed to be needed to be told this or that, e.g. who Christ was (known already) and that he was not a son of God (new information) and that helps locate who the speaker was and who his audience was. I sounds like Odon is some way down that path already.
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT VIDEOS. I salute Dr. Jay and Odon!!
There is a term used in South India called Nasrani used to describe Christians. this was initially used by Arab traders who traded in South India to describe Christians. i strongly believe that this has to do with the Root word nazarene or Nasara.
exactly. I think I spoke about them in my video.
Well done. This is the first time one has ever put things together, Jay. I have followed you in nearly all your presentations. Thank you for your work. Getting into the Qur'an itself to do analytic critique to unearth the 7th century has been fascinating. One thing is still not clear and that is Muhammad. Can this be presented in a brief and specific way to lessen confusion. Thanks.
Wow! Thank you Odon and Jay!
I have wondered for a long time about the link between the Nazarenes and Islam! The Nazarenes seem to disappear
from history just before the Temple was sacked in 70 CE; it is said they fled to Pella (site is located in NW Jordan).
This is highly interesting. Could you please explain in a future video how the Sabians, who were also people of the book, fit into all this?
Standard Islamic Narrative.
Love the acronym!
Note the words "Khan el-Quraiysiye". In Turkish and arabic, the ""khan" refers to an inn. In terms of what we have here, it is a post station as Odon points out. So, this is on a trade route with with other stations meeting the requirements to gas up the camels and grab some snacks. These post stations can be quite elaborate structures. So, how does this correspond to the trade route(s) out of this post station, I wonder?
2:45 music is going on too long Jay. iMHO Please turn it off more quickly. Thanks
Busra and the birth of MHMD as described in the Quran are particularly interesting. The story of the light coming from Amina's nethers and pointing to Busra, once during conception and the other time during birth, seems to fits more in the region of As-Sham and Latakia. Bohira (Bohaira) the Monk proclaimed MHMD's special nature during MHMD's caravan stop there. The story didn't come out of nowhere. Bohira could have been a source of not only the sermons discussed in the video, but the origin of MHMD.
Wow, how being able to disect history with truths is truly amazing, awesome work thank you
This one Video taught me more about islam ☪️ than many other before...Thanks Odon and Jay for this amazing and knowledgeable video...
ruclips.net/video/j4d8-AyDbeE/видео.html
What event occurred in 622AD, when the Islamic era is supposed to have begun? Is it the start of the alliance between the Quranic Nazarenes and Arab Unitarian Christians?
Or is the establishment of the Tayaye kingdom in mesopotamia? Destruction of the Sassanid empire?
Heraclius starts his campaign against the Sassanids
@@OdonLafontaine but why? Is it significant to the momineen (beleivers) movement? Has it something to do with recapturing of Jerusalem from Sassanid control?
@@OdonLafontaine is it the beginning of the covenant amongst the momineen, which gets broken in late 630's when the anticipated apocalypse doesn't occur after capture of Jerusalem?
@@OdonLafontaine is the breakage of the momineen covenant between Arab Unitarian Christians and judeo-nazarens (Quranic Nazarenes) reflected in the standard Islamic narrative in the stories of the Medina's Jewish Tribes?
@@roshlew6994 The campaign against the Sassanids left both sides very weak, creating a gap of power and control in the land in between both Empires that allowed Umar to sweep the region and take Jerusalem in 637.
I agree with Odon. Lots of Thanks for you both.
Having read the book in French (Le grand secret de l'Islam) a couple of years ago now, I was really glad that Olaf was put in touch with Jay and Mel. One thing that still intrigues me is with respect to point 6 in this video, the Nasaara as mentioned in the Quran, the Nazarenes. The root is ن ص ر that is: n, s (emphatic), r. The same triliteral is found in the name Ansar, the "helpers" whose origin are not really defined. It would seem to me plausible then, that the Nasaara and the Ansar designate the same group, with the Ansar possibly their military wing.
Thank you both! 🙏🏽💕
I want to give both a big thanks and a huge hug, Islam wanted to be like the New Jews hence they still follow the Jewish traditions but with a twist and new names... Gbu both..
History and truth and research are tools that God has given His children to find His Son Jesus Christ and to be infilled with the Holy Spirit. Thank you both!! 🙏🏼🏴✝️💪🏼🇬🇧⛪️
If the Quraysh were located in Syria, that explains why Jesus or Isa in Arabic is an Arabized pronunciation of Ishu (Ishoo), the Syriac name for Jesus/Iesous. What still mystifies me though is that Quraysh appears to be a common word for "Persians."
@Irritating Comment qiraysh is Aramaic for Cyrus
@Irritating Comment I am up past my bedtime! More correctly, Quraysh appears to be a slight variant of Hebrew Koresh (Cyrus) or the Persian name for Cyrus which is very similar and which derives from the Persian word kurush. Cyrus was held in extraordinarily high esteem by the Jews and is the only gentile whom the Bible refers to as "messiah."
Persian, "Kurush"; Babylonian and Susian, "Kurash" ; Hebrew/Masoretic, "Koresh"; Greek, Kuros/Kyros;
The Babylonian and Susian form is especially similar to Kuraish (or Quraysh if you prefer). Coincidence? Maybe, but I suspect not.
Such excellent material...
A very interesting presentation. If I remember correctly, Mel from Sneakers Corner said threre was evidence of the Quresh in China, If they were in China and in vicinity of Latika, this suggests that may have lived along the route of the Silk Road caravan route. If so the original location of "Mecca" might have been somewhere close to that route.
Should there have been a Mecca...
We tend to think according to the concepts of the Islamic Narrative. Why should there have been a Mecca? A unique place of origins? When you really look into it, the only reason would be to have a context for the "Prophet" and his prophecies. But we are unveiling this: there was no prophecy, there was no prophet. So is the search for the real Mecca that relevant?
@@OdonLafontaine Thank you for replying. Well yes, it’s entirely possible that there was no prophet or revelations, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there was no progenitor for the figure Mohammed. I would guess that if there was one he was more warlord than prophet, I understand that there were a number of warrior prophets in the period although the only one I can name is the Berber Prophetess queen of the Berbers.
Perhaps he led a group that carried out raiding in the run up to the Arab conquests.
The other thing that I wonder about is what happened to the Quresh tribe are they known by another name now. According to Wiki the name does live on as a family name now.
Always phenomenon.
Quite a lecture. Congratulations! Question: where do Arab polyteists fit?
They are nowhere to be seen in the 7th century. No temple, no trace, no source but for the Standard Islamic Narrative
II find it interesting that the Qur’an condemns those who “cover” (the Kufar) but we have seen Quranic text with COVERINGS! We have seen the insertions of the word “Allah” where is had been understood before but was not written. So the Muslims scribes did exactly what the Qur’an condemns: changing and covering the text. How interesting that Jesus tells His disciples that before you preach to others, to take the speck out of your brother’s eye, to remove the log from your own.
Yes, the Jews still do covering, but not in the way as they once did, for example, many Jews do not even know Isaiah 53 is in their Bible.
How ironic...
Odon, great mind blowing research!! maybe you could review a bit more about the failed apocalypse and how this led to the breaking of the covenant by these Arab believers and their subsequent hostile reaction against Jews and Christians in the next episodes casting them as infidels.
Failed Apocalypse?
This will be in the new video
Thank you sir and bro in Christ
@@OdonLafontaine Bonjour, you are getting closer . Very good.
Did you read the works of AJ Deus from the last 5 or 6 years, including the one 3 weeks ago .?
@@miguelsureda9762 I read Sura 2 many qiblas and The Nasara in the Koran. Let me check them again, as well as the last article (I did not know about it)
Joe of red Judaism has a theory about edumian Jews/Sadducees having some influence in creation of Islam. Were they same as Quranic Nazarenes?
Yes same people 2 diffrent names...Red Judaism even says that early Christians were saducee jews😃...who during the 7th century become partners with arab christians in conquering jerusalem to restore temple...
Thank you brother Jay and Odon for this incredible work. I have a question regarding the reading of "mushrikun" in the Quran. How are we to think about passages like 6:137-138, where it appears the SRK root may indeed refer to pagans/polytheists who, for example, offer their children as sacrifices? Or, is this also referring to Trinitarian Christians? God bless.
I am a Nazrani. I am a saint Thomas Syrian Christian from India. We are still called as Nazranis. We are told by our great parents that we are called so, because our Lord Jesus lived in a place called Nazrath."Nazrani" means a follower of "Nazaryan".And "Nazrayan" means one who lives in "Nazrath". Jesus is a "Nazrayan". Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read: JESUS OF NAZARETH , the king of the jews( John 19:19).
Being from Nazrath and being a Nazarene at the time of Christ were sort of equivalent. Nazarene at this time meant "descendant of David", and Nazrath was the city of the descendants of David.
Knowing this, you understand now how cynic Pilate was when he wrote the "titulus crucis" (notice fastened to the cross), which really meant "Jesus the descendant of David, king of the Judeans". This is why the Judeans protested...
Odom, by the 7th Century, should the Ummah be defined as the portion of the Arab Christian Trinitarians (Gazannids or Mushrikum) that stop being trinitatian and joined the Lackmids Arabs plus the Nomad Arabs of Central Arabia? These are to me the three historically defined large group of Arabs existing in Arabia per se that eventually coalesced to form the initial Ummah of the 7th century. Greetings from Puerto Rico.
Interesting take. Also keep in mind it’s attested in texts that there were 2 Arab armies
Wonderful explanation, according to Odon's search for Quraishis, i think Wadi Qandil in Latakiya is the most probable site for 'real' Mecca. Dr. Jay, Would you please elaborate the Wadi further?
I can't handle it with "Ahhhh Rhaaab". Everything else is fine. Jay please tell him! Great work.
Let's let him remain French, along with his delightful French accent, can't we?
@@pfanderfilms Respectfully "Ahh Rhaaab" is confusing in context with the importance of the subject matter. If someone is publicly speaking with their zipper open, it is polite to whisper in his ear to correct and not "allow" you understand.
@@richarddalbis3323 you should listen to English speakers trying to speak French, painful!!! Try to concentrate on the content rather than pronunciation.
@@raffam3559 I can accept most of it....but Ahhh Raaaab is horrendous. It KILLS content and context and needs to be corrected. Not even French intellectuals say Ahhh Raab.
@@pfanderfilms - it’s both quaint and nice to the ears!
The best one Jay and odon
The Jewish-Arab alliance (Quranic Nazarenes+Quranic Believers) that took over Jerusalem in the late 680's, was this group also called the Saracens??
Please turn up the sound. If it’s too loud for some they can turn down the volume on their device. But the rest of us can only turn it up so far.
You can use VLC player to listen to RUclips videos. And with VLC player, you can crank up the volume to unholy levels
Please in the next video can Odon please comment where, when & how the Sunni- Shia divide Came about and how it fits into his thesis
It took a lot of work, time and dedication to do this type of research. Good on him. ❤
When will this theory scale the citadel of academia.
never, unfortunately. That is just one part of the sad reality. The majority of the academia are afraid to offend, they rather want to fawn than to question.
@@kriscubero6778 Why there are numerous Chrisrian, or should I say a majority are Christian, I am referring to institutions of learning in Europe and USA, many in India, Australia, Canada, NZ, SA, African Countries, LA, Philippines, practically wherever Christians established colonies, who are they afraid of there.
Academia goes at a sedate pace... But forth it goes... 🤔 😂
My problem with the Quran being a Christian book is that there is only 3 references to the disciples and 136 references to moses. Shouldn’t there be more references to Paul and the apostles if it was a Christian book.
Then the Quran getting basic bible stories wrong.
Wouldn’t the Quran be more derived from the syriac Targums rather than the New Testament
The Quran is not a Christian book
It is a book which has been mostly made by the collection and edition of the sermons of a Jewish Nazarene group and of Arab preachers (taught by the Jewish Nazarene) to some Arabs.
To be more precise, the "raw material" which was used to edit the Quran were folios on which were notes and instructions and memory aids for those sermons
@@OdonLafontaine I was interested in the archaeology from the qureshi tribe was there a full report 😊
@@OdonLafontaine thankyou for your reply
Just sounds very convincing due to its details, linguistics, geography, and thoroughness.
When quran 5:116 speaks of Meryem and Jesus as gods besides God, it makes a mistake. The Holy Spirit is not the same as Meryem/ Maria.
Actually, it speaks of the "mother of Jesus". In Aramaic christianity, the trinity was described as the Father, the Mother and the Son.
If one accepts this, there seems to be a major mismatch between the desert armies that broke out of deep Arabia and conquered the Middle East in a couple of decades and the origins of Islam. It seems that their early military success may have predated their contact or adoption of Islam, the origin of which was to their more settled north. It looks like they conquered the birthplace of Islam and adopted it en route.
Copy of a response I made
Remember that Arab mercenary cavalry worked for both empires depending on tribes. The rapid "conquest" might simply be the turning of the mercenaries against their 2 formers and weakened masters...
@@sebastiendefrance9986 Were they adopting new tactics that they had not used as mercenaries? One might have expected to see them as decisive factors in a number of earlier battles as Roman or Persian mercenaries, but is there any evidence of this? And where does Islam fit into such an evolving scenario?
@@markaxworthy2508 sorry my knowledge expands only so far... And you might have more info on odon next release about coins. Arabs (some) apparently acted as tributaries for Byzantines, managing provinces in their stead...
When, with "proto Islam" as their ideological spine, they decided that Arabs had their own destiny they just had to stop paying tribute and keep the territories for themselves...
Supposedly both empires were exhausted by their long lasting conflict...
DR.Jay, I am convinced, since we met in London (4 years ago) and you asked me what is the name of this group, I had told you a sort of Ebionites sect.
I was following the work of brother Bruno Bonnet Eymar, on the substrates of the Cor'an. The deepest layer is biblical of the Syriac and Aramaic language, as Luxenberg and others believe. The error that occurs, let alone the RASM was forgotten, the transmitters (8th Century) thought in adding diacriticals and vowels, disrupted the true nature and content, the meaning of the Qur'an. If hopefully, I make sense of my french translation. François Tessier
Bonnet Eymard est un pionnier. Son travail est très intéressant, plus encore quand on le compare à celui de Luling, de Luxenberg et de Gallez.
Toutefois, la "couche la plus profonde" n'est pas strictement biblique: il s'agit plutôt de commentaire biblique
Watching this video again! Odon is correct with his definition of what a KiTaB is at 39:47 ! The word KiTAB is 'taken' from the (Yoruba)Paleo-Hebrew 'ìKhọ Thi ÀBá' = '(The) Writing of Prescriptions/Suggestions/words' e.g 'ìKhọ Thi ÀBá Thi oBaiDe-oYoHa' is known in English simply as 'The Book of Obadiah'.
Wow! What a presentation!
I think you need to also consider the hadith which states that Mohammad sent Zaid ibn Thabet to learn Hebrew to know the Torah and Syriac to know the Gospel at that time.
More excellent information! Easier to listen to at 1.5speed.
This is really excellent material.
What about nosserians the Jewish batipsmal sect rejecting Christ but accepting John the Baptist still existing in Iraq?
I supposed the missing link would connect the Arian Controversy to Abdul Malik bin Marwan?
Latakia is a lot closer to Damascus where a lot of the action was going on and why we have aramaic and syriac words or influences in the Quran.
This is my best effort at understanding the change of location of the birth of Islam from Syria to Saudi Arabia. Ibn al Zubayr was a fundamentalist Muslim who warred against what he saw as the immoral expression of Islam under the Umayyads. He made his last stand in Saudi Arabia. He had renewed worship at a holy place presumed to be Mecca but nobody knows for certain yet. He sent his son north to Syria and Persia to fight and spread a message of true Islam against the Umayyads. This attracted the Abbasids in Persia, who saw a chance to defeat the Umayyads on the basis of this ‘righteousness’ and did so in 750AD. My guess is that Ibn al Zubayr had cemented belief in the town in Saudi Arabia as the spiritual centre of Islam, distancing and differentiating it from the sinful centre of Umayyad excess. The Abbasids accepted this for the same reason but never held political residence there. Their power base was in Baghdad. It is alleged, then, that the story of the origin of Islam was transplanted to Mecca as the holy place renewed by Ibn al Zubayr, and Muhammad’s early story, along with the Quraysh tribe he grew up with, moved south to accommodate the new interpretation.
I think Ibn al Zubayr was not a "fundamentalist Muslim" but an illuminate who thought he was himself the Messiah
As for the choice of Mecca, keep in mind that it was not chosen at first to be "the spiritual centre of Islam". Up until the end of the 8th cent., (and even the 9th) the Standard Islamic Narrative is not complete yet (so no "revelation", and then no need for a "place of the revelation").
Mecca gradually became this "spiritual centre":
- at first as Ibn al Zubayr's place, and the place of the Black Stone
- then, when it was conquered by the Umayyads, they first kept it as a "reserve sanctuary"
- then it was made into Abraham's place instead of Jerusalem. This happened along the invention of the Islamic Narrative, when Arabs parted with their Nazarenes origins and claimed to be the new "choosen people", instead of the Jews. It could have happened in the 8th cent., before the Abbasids, or after.
- then it was made into the Prophet's birthplace, etc. This happened with the developments of the Islamic Narrative - end of 8th cent., and even later.
@@OdonLafontaine Fascinating - thank you!
I ask myself one question. Why are abrigated versus still in the Qur'aan?
Because the "abrogation" was invented with the creation of the Standard Islamic Narrative, way after the Quranic text had been assembled and edited.
@@OdonLafontaine so it needs to be altered again.
@@denniseijs Muslims have learned to live with it. They can still refer to the abrogated verses when they feel that the context they live in matches the one that the traditional narrative tells about those verses.
@@OdonLafontaine so they use the abrogated when they wish to. While they have been abrogated so null and void.
Great presentation.
What do you think when the (consonantal) Quran was finalized (so that it basically had more or less the form we have today)?
Did the preachers and the Arab "muminun" in the beginning believe and practice 100% the same things as the Quranic Nazarenes or did they only incorporate the main teachings of the Nazarenes?
Were these the Nestorians?
Amazing video and information. Thank you.
So, in all the English Koran translations (and other languages too)most of the names of the groups of people are wrong.
MANY CHAPTERS IN EXISTING BOOKS ON ISLAM MUST BE RE-WRITTEN (mine are 300+).
A CORRECT translation of the Koran would be very helpful.
20:47: Ras (رأس) means head or point according to Google translate, not river, which is Nahr (نهر). In the context of the map Ras could mean a point of land sticking out into the sea, for example a headland.
I would think the "R." is simply short for River.
Nahr is correctly used for river in the map at 20:33, although the name seems to be placed too far North to match the river on the 20:47 map. The R. Korásh must be identical with the present day Nahr al-Khabir al-Shamali, as it is the only river in the area major enough to be named on Google Maps. It flows from the North East towards the South West and into the sea south of Latakia.
Can we be sure that the river names in the two maps refer to the same river, or can they be similar names for two different rivers?
Very interesting point
Ras Korash could very well be a sort of headland. Maybe as the mouth of the river, the place where it flows into the sea. But René Dussaud described the Nahr el Qurashye as flowing into the Orontes river. He also points that, according to the syrian historian & geographer Yakut al Rumi (12th cent.), the inhabitants of Khan al Qurashiye were the Banu al-Qurashi
@@OdonLafontaine I've just found on Google maps a Karasu river running into the Orontes river in Turkey. The coordinates of the confluence are 36.252582,36.203896. This is in North East Antakya (Antioch).
There are several different rivers with that name in Turkey according Wikipedia, notably one which is a tributary to the Euphrates. The article about the one running into the Orontes:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasu_(Hatay)
The Karasu river went into Lake Amik before it was "[...] drained during a period from the 1940s-1970s."
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Amik
The oulet of the lake went south into the Orontes river.
Could this be the river René Dussaud mentioned?
The river's name Arabic is قره صو (Transliterated QrhSu without, and QarahSu with short vowels) which is sufficiently different from the name of the Quraysh tribe, قُرَيْشٌ, for me to dare to suggest the similarity could be coincidental, if this should be the river René Dussaud mentioned.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh
@@anderslvolljohansen1556 Let me check with Dussaud's book (746 pages...)
@@OdonLafontaine The village of Khan el-Qourashiyé must be the one on map IX called Khan el Qourshiye. The map has one central vertical line crossed by two horizontal lines. The village name is found below the bottom cross, with just two other names between it and the cross.
It seems a part of the final h has lost its top so it looks like an n because it is on the border between two parts cut and then fitted together again.
@@OdonLafontaine @Odon Lafontaine I've found an online version of the book, and judging from the described itinerary, the Turkish river I found on Google maps is not the one René Dussaud mentioned. Chapter III, section 5.
"Cette région ayant été rarement parcourue, nous donnons notre itinéraire à partir de Khan el-Qourashiyé, la Crusia de Maundrell, sur la route de Lataquié à Djisr esh-Shoghr. El-Qourashiyé est le nom de la localité dont Yaqout nous dit que les habitants s’appelaient Banou el-Qourashi et pouvaient être d’origine qoraishite; c’est aussi le nom de l’affluent de l’Oronte qui la traverse. De tout temps ce dut être la première...
Odon, Q4.171 which is also on the Dome of the Rock, first calls upon “the people of the book” and then tells them “don’t say 3,“ so it clearly refers to Christians not Jews, no?
When you really look into Q4,171, you realise it urges the People of the Book to believe in Jesus as being sent by God (i.e. the Messiah). However, by believing so, People of the Book should not become Christians by believing in the Trinity, believing that Jesus is the son of God.
Most translations (every translation indeed...) have it very wrong on "innamā l‑masīḥu ʿīsā ibnu maryama rasūlu allāhi wa‑kalimatuhu". Usually, it is translated as "The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word" whereas innamā means here "verily"
So a good translation would be "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was a messenger of God, and His word"
I understand your point. Thanks. But considering the fact that Abdl Malik put this on the Dome of the Rock in late 7th century, who was he trying to address? Who were his audience? My guess is that at that time there were not many Jews in Jerusalem and it was a Christian city. Could it be that this verse was a later addition to the earlier Quranic text by Abdl Malik? Or he re-interpreted “people of the book” as Christians?
@@traveleurope5756 He adressed the Jews of Jerusalem, who came back with the "Arab conquest", even though there might not have been that much. But since the city was opened to them, the Jewish pilgrimages must have resumed, particularly at the Temple Mount, their most holy place. So putting those inscriptions there would have been relevant for Abd al Malik, in order to make his statement as the new ruler, the head of the new religion that had "conquered all religions".
Besides, we cannot really know for sure that this phrase "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was a messenger of God" was already a sacred "verse" in a book, or just a common religious teaching among the Arabs (taken from the Judaeo-Nazarenes' teachings)
Very interesting
The messianic angle is very important. Unlike today, this was a hot topic throughout history.
Serpent (SATAN, Chi Xe Stiqma = 666 , Bismillah = in the name of allah, ) is the symbol of ISLAM, the enemy of human kind:
Genesis 3:1-8, 11-15 (JPOT)
1 Now the Serpent (SATAN = ISLAM = THE BEAST)
was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman said unto the serpent (SATAN = ISLAM = THE BEAST): 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'
.
4 And the serpent (SATAN = ISLAM = THE BEAST) said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die;
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
10 And he said: 'I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.'
11 And He said: 'Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?'
12 And the man said: 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.'
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman: 'What is this thou hast done?' And the woman said: 'The Serpent (ISLAM = SATANIC VERSES) beguiled me, and I did eat.'
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'
Looking for 100% consistency in these texts, as in the case of "mushrikun", would be the miracle in the Quran if you found it. There are too many contradictions and inconsistencies in general. Allah couldn't be consistent in his own voice. He blesses himself in the Quran or talks in the third person like John Kerry.