Hydrogen for heating our homes
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2019
- Following on from video #59, which looked at energy storage in hydrogen, this week we discuss some of the feedback and comments that were expressed by you on the subject of hydrogen as part of the renewable energy project. We also focus on the potential of hydrogen for heating our homes - something that is being enthusiastically embraced by the UK government.
Research Sites
www.theccc.org.uk/2019/05/02/...
ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ene...
www.theccc.org.uk/2019/05/02/...
ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ene...
www.theccc.org.uk/wp-content/...
www.boilerguide.co.uk/hybrid/...
www.theengineer.co.uk/domesti...
assets.publishing.service.gov...
www.economist.com/business/20...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-euro...
www.newscientist.com/article/...
www.greenmatch.co.uk/boilers/...
www.glowgreenltd.com/blog/hyd...
matthey.com/inspiring-science...
www.gasworld.com/project-to-e...
climatenewsnetwork.net/uk-urg...
www.theccc.org.uk/wp-content/...
#hydrogenheating . #renewableenergy #climatecrisis
Another informative video. The stat that 50% of total UK energy use is for heating is a real eye-opener. It highlights the massive importance of upgrading the insulation of existing buildings.
That figure is somewhat skewed by Britain's industrial collapse. A lot of the energy consumption attributable to the people of the UK now takes place in Asia, where so much of the energy intensive manufacture for UK consumers now occurs. This has increased the percentage of energy consumed within the UK for space heating faster than improving insulation standards for buildings have made it fall.
@Marc Jackson The actual charging of a lithium ion battery at modest charge rates is about 99% efficient, up to the point where it is nearly full. If you want to charge really fast, the efficiency drops, due to ohmic losses in the internal resistance of the battery. Much of the loss you see in real world applications is actually in the charging control circuitry. There are choices there. For low power chargers people usually choose cheap and not very efficient. For high power ones people can get the losses quite low, but it makes the hardware more expensive.
@Marc Jackson Where do you find a "science figure" that says the battery itself achieves only 90% charging efficiency as modest charge rates? Most batteries charge at 90% efficiency overall, with the charge electronics dissipating most of the heat. If you spend more on the controller you can reduces those losses. I've developed charge control for some simple lithium ion battery setups, and the losses in the cells themselves are impressively small.
@Marc Jackson Now you are changing the topic. Charge discharge efficiency is not 99%. That has two losses chained together. The charge efficiency is not 99% all the way to full, either. I did specifically say charge efficiency was 99% up to nearly full. The exact definition of "nearly" varies from cell type to cell type. 99% charge efficiency, which you can measure using a calorimeter and an electrical energy meter (because all the input energy either ends up stored or as heat), is what you get at modest charge rates (i.e. low enough to keep the ohmic losses to a small fraction of a percent), over a large central section of the charge curve.
But it cannot be done
This is a really high quality production. Informative and detail rich but coherently presented. Rivals the best BBC productions.
@Richard Phillips yeah but if you really knew the facts you might not think so
Totally agree with you.
Insulation is also REALLY important!
not too much, bec. that stuff you put on your houses cant breathe, will cause mouldy walls , plus after 30 years that insulation-plastics is special waste ,that is expensive to get rid off. Building with wood , even for high rise houses seems the only sustainable option
@@freydenker6335 That's what vapour barriers are for. Modern houses will have vapour barriers built into warm side of the external walls of the house. They prevent water vapour inside the house migrating through the building fabric to cold condensing surfaces within the building fabric.
Modern timber framed houses are well insulated and typically last for many decades. My own house is 26 years old, timber frames and insulated. I've not seen any problems with mould or rot, and believe me when I say I've inspected the floor voids, roof spaces and opened up some of the external walls. They're healthy.
However insulating old houses is a big challenge. The problem isn't so much moist air inside the house that condenses on the way out, it's more a problem of having rain penetration from the outside getting in. That's your major cause of failure - especially if you have wall ties getting rusty in a cavity wall space. Breathability helps in that case, but it's far better to prevent the rain getting into the cavity space in the first place by installing external insulation instead of cavity wall insulaiton.
But in my own house, I'm adopting an "insulate first" strategy. A heating system will typically be replaced every 12-20years (especially with modern heat exchangers). Good insulation on the other hand will last the whole life of the building.
@@anthonydyer3939
There is such thing as the zero energy house. They do not need heating or cooling systems. They cost no more to build than any other house. Look up Passiv Haus. Of course the heating/cooling business would be against them.
Approx' half the energy use of the UK is in heating buildings.
@@johnburns4017 I'm fully aware of Passiv Haus constructions. However these concepts are only cost effective with new homes.
For my house, a 1993 built Bungalow, there's only so much I can do in terms of insulating the walls and the floor before things get really expensive and disruptive. For instance, a passiv haus has 300mm of insulation built into the walls using double stud construction to avoid cold bridging. My house has 80mm deep exterior stud framing. If I'm going to upgrade to a passiv haus. I'm looking at a full rebuild of the interior stud wall framing as well as the exterior rendered concrete blockwork in order to accommodate 300mm of wall insulation. It's simply not possible to retrofit my house to that standard without writing off most of that investment. Indeed it's probably cheaper to demolish my house completely and start again.
That's going to be the situation for most existing buildings. Cost effective retrofit Passiv Haus in most instances means a complete scrap and rebuild of the property. You can go so far with insulation in the existing building fabric, but you still need a heating system to make up the shortfall.
The major problem you have is with the housing market. A well insulated house simply doesn't fetch enough of a price premium to pay for the investment that you make into passiv haus grade insulation. I've seen plenty of properties on the market the same size and price, but with wildly different EPC ratings. People just don't seem to care about building performance.
If you want to introduce Passiv Haus as a viable retrofit concept, I think it's not enough to think about energy cost savings along. You most likely need to introduce taxation - probably along the lines of a Council Tax surcharge for inefficient buildings, and a discount for efficient buildings. Also a subsidy would need to be introduced so that poor households can upgrade their property without being penalised.
@@anthonydyer3939
The UK has the oldest and least insulated buildings in western Europe. There is scope to improve on the poor carbon footprint by demolition and rebuilding.
As you highlighted there is scope to improve, but a cut off point of no return. You can insulate, and stop air leaks, as much as possible, which will make a difference in heating bills, meaning a cut down heating system.
You are right. A tax on inefficient buildings is the answer. That will spark some of it off.
But why do we have these old buildings still hanging around? Relaxed planning laws and a full Land Value Tax, no taxation on the buildings, only the _values_ of the land - that will shift matters quickly.
Considering the 'one off' cost of insulating properties to be far more efficient would surely be a profoundly better option regardless of the fuel source for heating. Drastically reducing demand drastically reduces the o going costs.
Thinking along the lines of passive house standards. Cost of the house would raise but heating is way down.
The match was on when hydrogen met oxygen on the field. The final score was 2 to 1, when the game was called off from rain.🌞💧
Good video, I particularly like the inclusion of the slide at 10:10. There are lots of videos that discus converting to a 100% hydrogen network but I have yet to fine a single one, except this one, that mentioned the challenges in utilization that will/would have to resolved. Flame speed and limits of flammability are two issues that I remember from the town gas days, and the problem of flame liftoff on the early natural gas conversion designs. I have raised this issue in various comments on other presentations but none have been answered, I wonder how many actually understand the problems. The 3rd and probably most important for the UK at least is the capacity of the distribution networks and domestic internal pipework. Hydrogen has a calorific value by volume of around a third of that of natural gas meaning the pipework would need to have the ability to pass 3 times the volume than it does for natural gas which I simply don't see as feasible without huge disruption and cost let alone the time and manpower to carry it out. Significant pressure increases to offset this I would suggest are out of the question. I accept that various technologies and large scale insulation of buildings would help reduce demand but I cannot see any simple way of squaring this circle.
Congratulations on the new subs. It's a testament to your communication skills and reasonable and optimistic attitude towards the subject at hand. I also like the way you review the feedback you've received.
Thanks Chris. Much appreciated. All the best. Dave
you mean morons who can't think for themselves.
Thank you a real insight into using Hydrogen for heating its a mine field still ,love your informative videos.
This is really good. Informed and impartial discussion. Brilliant!
Extremely well done!
My concept for home hydrogen production is on the lines of solar PV electrolysis, storage in an adsorber like some type of synthetic zeolite, and then those newer appliances or retrofits. To make it all viable add a pipeline of commercially produced H2, and finance the upgrades for home heating envelope efficiency There are some attractive easy-to-install options like wall "foamboards" made by growing mycelium on barley hulls, just pop onto existing inside walls or ceilings, add extensions for outlets and opening trim, and be sure to seal tightly so warm moist air doesn't get through.
Your videos are very informative, accessible and engaging. If nothing else, it will help focus people's minds to what the next innovative challenges are. Thanks! I would love to see some discussion on nuclear genV.
I use off-peak storage heaters. (Steffes brand) They have salt filled bricks that are heated electrically to around 2000 degrees at night when the power price is low. Then the room thermostat controls a fan that blows room air up threw and back down over the bricks. A air mixing system keeps the exit air temperature down to a safe level. On the whole they work quite well, but the old ones I have are manually controlled and I have to adjust them based on the upcoming outdoor weather. The modern ones do that automatically. For the future I am looking at a solar heat collecting troughs along with large storage tanks with candle wax to store a week of heat.
Great content and detail. Different and more in depth than other channels. More please!
Thanks Martin. Much appreciated. Plenty more to come 🙂
thank you for the videos's very informative for the bigger picture. I'm studying a PhD on hydrogen technology and there is some real progress being made.
Great video Dave. OMTEC can make all the hydrogen needed for home heating..
I am so taken with your production, content, knowledge, research and presentation, thank you. You put the BBC et al well into the shade. I would be truly interested to hear / see your thoughts on Ammonia as a replacement for fossil fuels now that low cost and straightforward methods of production are available, or so I have read!
Great show!
One of the main problems for hydrogen in gas burning is piping or tubing that can be used. Hydrogen gas will eat through most standard steel pipe and tube, so Stainless Steel has to be used.
Hydrogen enters the microstructure of the steel, and reacts with the carbon present to form larger methane molecules.
There are plastic tubing systems that can take hydrogen pressures up to 700 bar and temperatures from -40 °C to +80 °C. new design will have to consider connection types and sealing systems to reduce possibilities of accidental leaks.
Almost 20.000 sub’s 👍🏼 and going up. Thanks for another good and informative video.
8:12 yes!
Excellent video and presenter. Subscribed.
Another good presentation. Keep them coming
I thought about this yesterday and today youtube is suggesting this video.
My main concern with hydrogen is the quality of the gas network. Given how much more explosive hydrogen is over natural gas it would present a significantly increased risk both where network issues occur but also in the home where appliance failures or even carelessness occurs. I would personally keep hydrogen in the industrial sector only where it is far easier to regulate and manage.
That may indeed be how it ultimately transpires. We shall see.
Natural gas is going up in price all the time where as hydrogen will start to come down
Great Video, it confirms my wish to do a hybrid air source & gas boiler heating system. The thing I am really passionate about promoting is hybrid trolley/ battery bus and hgv’s . The overhead electrical source is put onto main atrial routes around cities so buses can run on direct power plus charge and between cables on batteries. This simplifies the cable system and gives buses flexibility plus no down time to charge. This can also work for Hgv’s with cables down the motorway etc then finishing deliveries by battery. No worries about vehicle range.
We had these in the 1940's so nothing new. (Apart from not having batteries).
Informative video A offered thought to add to the pros and cons is the portion of the combustion energy that leaves in the exhaust gasses. Assuming ideal combustion of a hydrocarbon the waste gasses are CO2 and H2O. As one burns shorter hydrocarbons the ratio of H2O increases with H2 combustion producing no CO2. Point being CcO2 remains a gas in our operating limits whereas given a cool enough ambient air supply to a condensing heater burning H2 could recover sufficient heat of vaporization to raise the thermal efficiency of the heater above 1.0.
British Dr. Karl !! Keep up the great work 😀
The explosion of the Hydrogen fueling station in Norway just the other day should give your viewers pause. The Fuel cell powered vehicles are perhaps the safest use of hydrogen that are intended to be used in close proximity to our homes and yet those refueling stations tend to be located at a safe distance from housing. Bringing the volatile rocket fuel right into our homes and condominiums may be literally playing with fire. My suspicions are with that government study you cite in the UK. Could it have had this usage, not excluding steam reforming, added on behalf of the energy conglomerates?
While hydrogen can be burned it is a much better idea to use that fuel for fuel cells at the point of use as they not only produce electricity but also produce a considerable level of heat that is waste energy. That's why some hydrogen fueled buses look like "Stanley Steamers". This combined with heat pumps mean a air source heat pump would provide heating well below-15C while providing air conditioning in the summer. This is doable now.
One cautionary note, hydrogen embrittlement is very real so iron lines and steel cylinders can get so hardened that they can actually fracture so retrofitting needs to be evaluated very carefully considering some installations used cast iron, a product already brittle. All to say that this is a real option.
This idea is nothing new. I've been aware of diesel generators being used as a home heating plant, same as a boiler, to produce heat and power. This is just a slight modification of the process and would also produce absolutely pure water as the byproduct.
A few years ago honda had a video on hydrogen fuel, not just for car's but also for home and so on.
Hello. I really enjoy your channel, and often end up having a think. Just a tech tip that could help about production. While i enjoy the warm look of wood as a backdrop to you, it is almost the same colour as you in the video. I am incouraging you to consider a different colour, behind you.
Never the less, there were certainly ideas in the show that gave me ideas to have a think.
He has changed the set, this is from over a year ago.
Great video as always.
Another great video, you have another new subscriber!
Thanks Ben. Much appreciated. Welcome to the channel :-)
Good one... Thank you
Carbon Capture and Storage is an option worth looking into. Especially if other new technologies are able to turn it into a resource. There was a video in here somewhere that was talking about using carbon as a building material; or at least a component in new concrete replacing materials. Which sounds like a good option to me.
As long as the future use of carbon doesn't end up releasing it back into the atmosphere
I Romberg when the uk switched from town gas to natural gas. Over a period of two years every home had to be inspected, decisions made on every installation to determine if each appliance could be modified and if so what material was required, or was it more economic to replace the unit. Then the kit was sent out to every household and a conversion date set. Then teams of engineers moved down the country switching every household and every installation. Conversion cost was funded by the government, so no one had to pay. The swap over went well, and every unit was successfully replace. So a major switchover is possible, and within a short time everyone had settled back and got on with it.
Great video!
Great video! The hydrogen subject really interests me. Have you considered discussing Hydrogen in transport? Privately owned and public transport?
Using hydrogen in a fuel cell produces electricity and the waste heat from the cell can heat water. This is efficient and avoids the problem with flames
Well put...the fuel cell would require a hydrogen storage unit at the home...I'm not sure I'd like to have a incredibly high pressurised tank near my house...but an interesting idea!!.😎
Hydrogen fuel cells are the future.
@@fivish doh!
@@fivish Bu they are not very efficient unfortunately
Hydrogen seems at this moment the most well positioned source of energy at the starting of XXI century to take a large stake in coming decades.The transition from fossil sources to clean sources will be political disruptive in many countries, but it will be no doubt, a major part of the decarbonized era we are entering now.
In order to help people interested in such subjects, to understand better the constraints involved, it woud be very interesting to have one or more presentations comparing solutions in terms of cost at present stage of technology development, as most of the discussions in the media today are not free of fake information.
Thanks for your excelent presentations.
Jorge S M
If the temperature in your country is 3+ °C you can install boiler on the roof of your house. Where i live the temperature can go under zero but this winter was warmer and we had free bath water all year. The boiler cost was 300-350euro photovoltaic if the temperature is positive and the day wasn't rainy you will have 40-45 °C, throughout the summer is 99.
A boiler that creates its own hydrogen at point of use, no storage nor distribution problems.
That is how it should be, but then you are no longer dependent. And they don't want that. You must and will pay.
Some problems with hydrogen are: 1.a hot flame but low heat capacity. Anything with carbon has at least twelve times more energy. 2. open flame produces too much nitrous oxide which is bad for your health. 3. It is hard to contain because the molecule is so small almost everything is porous to it. Valves and pipes must be pricision made to contain it. Hydrogen can be converted to heat or to electricity and it can be stored in other different ways, like a heat release molecular sponge or something.
Very high quality presentation. How do you make your animations?
Another excellent thought-provoking video. Thanks.
Like many fiscal conservatives & their victims, you're using (at 11:33) the household budget model of government finance. Yes, it's frightfully common misconception supported by any amount of propaganda on behalf of the establishment and the capitalist class. A bit of reading on Modern Monetary Theory will disabuse almost any open mind of the notion that tax or government borrowing spent on one thing necessarily means a dollar for dollar or pound or pound or euro for euro sum that cannot be spent on something else. It works differently if the state chooses to control the money supply - one example of which is a little thing called quantitative easing, which has been in the news in recent years.
hybrid air/ground source heat (exchange loop) pump would probably always be more efficient than any combustion boiler scenario. - choose the heat exchange loop for the highest quality of heat - depending on what tasks are being performed - air or water heating or cooling...
Heat pumps can manage in new heavily insulated homes. Not for most of our existing housing stock. We keep talking solar but not much sun in the winter which is when our homes require heating.
I'd like to point out that this efficiency is measured based on current understanding on dealing with hydrogen. We been burning gas for ages therefore we developed high efficiency and hydrogen has bright future yet to come. Hydrogen is everywhere and that's the freaking problem. They will lose the control as if it is everywhere theoretically everybody is able to capture it in his own home with the right equipment so that's a huge no no for control. We see it especially on Russia vs Ukraine war how control of gas can impact lives of people.
Great video, very helpfull. One of the things to think about. If we use electricity to power a boiler in winter times, the E net will not be able to support this. If you imagine 1 m3 or gas if equivalent to 10 kw of e power. A normal size house used about 10 m3 natural gas on an average winter day. Thats is 100 kw per day per house. This is massively more then the E grid can support. One advantage of this scenario. All the road will be free of ice because of the heat produced by the electrical grid in the ground to supply all the houses....
Correct, plus the fact that people don't want more power lines everywhere.
José Manuel Gómez Gómez You are correct in stating the efficiency of the electrical grid is very high (though not as high as the pipeline grid for transport of same amount of energy with hydrogen). My point is the Electrical grid we have today, was never designed to handle power loads we will get if we heat our houses this way with electrical power in the winter time. And if we try, this grid will become “red hot” (so to speak), and will be a lot less efficient.
@@peetvane it already happens, transmission lines dip. There's a lot of regulation around it too. 20s at this power, 2 weeks at another.
The most important action to take is reduce direct wastage in the heating process, Insulate , then insulate again.
My recently built house has twice the specified levels of insulation, with extra thick walls, 200mm of floor insulation, and double glazed high performance windows. It has underfloor heating sourced from Air source heat pumps, (electric) and solar thermal tubes on the roof. Full mechanical heat recovery ventilation with an 'ground pipe' pre-warming system. The total heating 'cost' in electricity works out at nearly one third of a conventional Gas fired boiler system with radiators, etc. .
ALL of the house power comes as electricity , brought from a company that owns most of its renewable supply chain.
During a very cold spell a couple of years go the heating failed, but thanks to the insulation my wife did not notice for five days!
So again INSULATE.
In what country is your new home? Doesn't sound like the US.
@@climatedeceptionnetwork4122 I live in the south of the UK. Near Portsmouth.
Yeah, great but......"high efficiency" houses are sweatboxes in the summer
@@evanleebodies Not if you get the design right. My house does include an 'earth pipe' ventilation system whereby the incoming air is precooled as it travels along buried ducting. I also take incoming air from the void under the floor. The result is that air coming into my house enters at 16-18 degrees when the outside temp is 21-23. All for the cost of a solar powered fan.
I will agree that the house can become a little warm, the main benefits are when the outside temp is in the minus areas and the house can be heated for minimal cost.
Check out passive house standards and construction..
Exactly right on the existing fossil fuel industry wanting to keep things centralized, hydrogen would suit that desire very well. Decentralized energy sources like home solar or wind on a large scale would make deep cuts into the current power generation industry's template.
Would it be cheaper to mass roll out renewables and use a sunamp hot water battery plus change to electric cooking where needed?
Enjoyed the video. Just subscribed.
Hi Paul. Thanks for subscribing. Much appreciated. I guess the UK and other governments will need to work out the best solutions as we go through the 2020's and beyond...
From my take, the best place for hydrogen is as a means to suck up energy when there is excess capacity from clean energy sources.
First fill the batteries, then ramp up hydrogen production.
If you hit a point where your hydrogen stockpiles are full, then further upgrade it into other liquid and gaseous fuels.
Allen, Pretty much agree. The only amount of stored hydrogen you would likely need would be for reliably fulfilling local needs for niche fuel or chemical uses and as backup for energy generation. As for general use fuels, hydrocarbons are a much more convenient form of energy.
It should also be noted, that with the pure hydrogen you would also be creating large quantities of pure Oxygen. Whether you use this for industrial purposes or to fuel cleaner energy production are likely only some of the options.
District heating with seasonal heat storage.
Land cost is another issue
Seasonal heat storage? I know you can store heat for a day or two but I've never heard seasonal. That would be impressive
One thing that amazes me about the UK is the small electric heaters you have on cold water strings to provide hot water for sinks in toilets. That is so much more clever than a central heater and a circulation pump that runs all the time to provide instant hot water in summer. This is much more efficient than a central boiler gas or electric. However using a valuable fuel just for heating, is still wasteful, when a Fuel cell that also produces electricity as well as heat, or simply a Stirling generator or even a small combustion engine could provide your electricity needs at no extra cost.
Thank you from 'H2 Innovation Lab' H2IL - technology for a green sustainable hydrogen future.
Water vapour, produced by burning hydrogen, is a greenhouse gas. Most of Earth's greenhouse effect is from H2O. Have you calculated the impact on climate of burning hydrogen?
😬😬😬
With battery systems so much more efficient from wind turbine to user, it would seem that hydrogen is a non starter. And it doesn't have to necessarily be Li ion batteries. A couple of other technologies are liquid metal batteries and Zinc bromide batteries. Both of these do not degrade over time and do not self discharge. They, of course, have their weak points and are not likely suitable for mobile applications (except perhaps for storing energy in static facilities that powers electrified trains).
Hydrogen + Solar = Seasonal energy storage. A golden goose.
Use excess summer solar (currently wasted), to convert water to H2 throughout the summer. Store it. Then in winter, run the H2 through a fuel cell to create electricity for the heat pump. Effectively a hydrogen battery. Power grid eliminated.
HVAC is 80% of household energy consumption here in Canada. Huge issue to solve.
In my opinion, the future of heating homes is either RNG or Blue/Green Hydrogen. The inefficiencies of transporting hydrogen can be solved by sending it through natural gas pipelines, where it can be used for trucks, steel production, shipping, or heating.
Hydrogen is very leaky and may not be suitable for existing nat gas transmission systems.
With regard to domestic heating there is a trinity of parameters. One of these is consistently ignored.
1) Heat source. (Could be hydrogen)
2) Prevention of heat transfer. (Non-flammable wall and roof insulation and double glazing)
3) Ventilation. (Forced with heat exchange)
Modern double glazing is very efficient, but “The Powers That Be” became worried about 3 (above). So we have double gazing with trickle vents.
Question: What is the difference between trickle vents and draughty windows?
Answer: Very little. (none)
In a time of COVID we (should) have become conscious of the importance of ventilation, but in any case it is vital to have a ventilation system designed to refresh the air while maintaining the ambient temperature.
I have a system of ventilation with heat exchange in my UK apartment which is probably highly inefficient. It has a simple cross flow heat exchanger where it should probably have a heat pump. Does it not make sense to forcibly remove hot damp smelly air from kitchen, bathroom and drying cupboard while recycling the heat in that air back into the building?
Consider the case of hotels, hospitals, places of entertainment in connection with cross-infection control.
In the UK, and we do not traditionally go in for air conditioning, but it is perhaps about time that we did. Air conditioning is a heat pump. This device recycles the air within a room as it lowers the temperature and humidity. Heat removed by air conditioning is wasted. Could it not be used to heat water? Also could this not be a ventilation device?
I also have a house in Greece which has “normal” air conditioning and solar heated hot water.
Is it not about time that a comprehensive integrated system was designed to cover the trinity above to give a healthy domestic environment anywhere in the world?
Come on, it’s not rocket surgery!
Excellent debate. I have always thought Hydrogen is the way forward and nature has given us it in huge quantities (h2o) which, as we all know is returned when the Hydrogen is burnt. Nature is trying to give us the lead and we need to follow it. There has to be a way.
Instead of making hydrogen from solar, use solar heat storage in insulated banks of earth below ground and beneath homes and businesses. If you insulate the ground around a home, you develop a heat "umbrella" beneath the home that allows direct piped extraction with fans or use of heat pumps. Coupled with superinsulation for the home, and solar windows, and triple panes with shutters and you have a home that heats and cools itself. Given hydrogen inefficiencies, the only thing recommending hydrogen is that it is non-carbon if it comes from renewables.
Why not just use methane instead of hydrogen🤷....and use that as a battery. Space stations use electric devices that converts Water + CO2 into Methane and Oxygen, using electricity obtained from solar panels. The same device can be used in reverse as a fuel cell to produce electricity (and a lot more efficiently than burning Methane...more than 70% effiencient).
Theoretically, you'd be able to power your house with Methane that's currently being piped to houses. Theoretically. I'm not saying it's a good idea. But theoretically, it's possible and it'd be at least 2x more efficient than a powerplant burning it.
Anyway, renewable methane would be carbon neutral since it sequesters CO2 out of the atmosphere in order to produce Methane.
And during the electricity producing phase, the CO2 is a lot easier to capture since it's not being burned...the other byproduct is water. And one could pump that capture CO2 underground, etc. If one does it that way, the entire process would be Carbon negative.
We'd be removing more carbon from the atmosphere the more electricity we use.
@@tylerdurden3722
You're right except that it's not as efficient as battery storage. We lose lots of solar power doing that.
@@rstevewarmorycom it's not far behind Li-ion effiency.
Plus effiency can be improved with heat capture. 🤔
@@tylerdurden3722
But less than 50% isn't good.
A couple thoughts. I work for a large multinational power company (as an electrical engineer) and they are seriously considering the hydrogen market. There was 2 main bodies of discussion regarding the overall grid. 1) hydrogen can be blended with NG up to about 15-20% without ill effects like leakage or irregular burning 2) In areas of high renewables like California, the excessive production causes grid instability and the "Duck Curve" one idea was to build multiple Industrial scale electrolysis hydrogen plants using the ocean as a water source, storing the hydrogen in massive tanks and then using either electric turbines or Industrial sized fuel cells to provide power during peak load effectively allowing renewables to be dispatchable and reliable.
Hi Nathan. Thanks for your feedback and very interesting information. One way or another it seems to me that the powers that be are determined to get hydrogen into the energy mix in a big way as part of the carbon reduction plan. The UK government's plan for carbon zero by 2050 will only work if they go full-on with hydrogen for heating. We shall see...
@@JustHaveaThink BTW I wanted to say I really enjoy your show and thank you for the response. I feel like the next couple of years will almost be like 110 years ago when everyone had horse and buggy... then suddenly vehicles everywhere.
......hythane fuelled vehicles have been around in Australia. Hythane is hydrogen/methane blend at 1:4 ratio . the tanks need only be twice the gauge thickness of LPG tanks . It works cos the hydrogen can remain dissolved in the liquefied methane, otherwise hydrogen storage is a problem . . For storing pure hydrogen ,the best strategy I've heard of is use of graphitic nitride to contain it as intercalated hydride .
Thank you so much. A bit dissapointed not to see any mention of Combined Heat and Power (CHP) systems already used on a commercial basis. At the heart of such systems is a fuel cell to produce electricity and the heat generated in that process used to heat your water, building or house. Current installations use either Natural Gas or Hydrogen. Many hospitals, apparently use the technology already and I thought that Panasonic had developed a micro CHP boiler. Love your series; wish more of it appeared on mainstream TV etc instead of half the junk we get.
The fuel cell could ofcourse charge your car battery etc overnight. The heat could keep your outdoor pool heated and your jacusi hot. 👍👍
Are you familiar with the Hazer low-emissions process to convert LPG or biogas to hydrogen and capture the carbon as high quality graphite?
Hi Dave, a really informative video and I like the way you addressed peoples various opinions at the start. I was gobsmacked to learn that hydrogen domestic boilers do not exist yet. When I read that UK report for making use of hydrogen for heating homes I don't recall it mentioning it was suggesting the use of technology that does not exist. You know me and my thoughts on non-existent technology to mitigate climate change . I can't help thinking that when Hammond announced it would cost in excess of GBP 1tn to cover the costs of net-zero carbon by 2050 he was basically saying "Do you want to pay for this?" and "Who is going to pay for this?" cos it isn't going to be us. You mentioned the UK government would need to finance to some degree the research to create these domestic hydrogen boilers. Honestly, I don't see it happening for 2 reasons. First, the hydrogen needs to be delivered to the houses (how? Can we utilise the same gas pipes?) and secondly, people will be scaremongered by the press into believing they are unsafe - and I would expect a few explosions along the way (remember the guy who shoved a carrot into the end of his gas pipe to seal it up!!!). So lets be really optimistic, five years to develop and start a manufacturing plant for building the boilers. Five years to introduce them into new homes, then 10 years to start getting them into older homes. 2040 before they start to make a difference and not taking into account the delivery system for the hydrogen from source to destination. I don't see it happening apart from within pilot towns or villages perhaps. Overall I think it will just be too dangerous to burn the hydrogen. Perhaps it could be converted back into electricity and water at the home destination. Good video and I want to learn more about heat pumps now.
Hi David. Thanks for your feedback as always. It certainly seems like an ambitious plan on the face of it, especially as the government doesn't appear to have kicked off any kind of public awareness programme yet to assuage some of the perfectly reasonable concerns that you outline. The quandary they have is that they are about to (hopefully) sign into law the pledge to get the UK to Carbon Zero by 2050, and without this hydrogen aspect in the mix, the plan is screwed. So I have a feeling that it will be enforced in the coming year. They can, apparently, use the same pipelines, but there is a challenge with hydrogen in that it tends to make metal conduits brittle, so they've got that one to solve too! They're gonna be busy!
Clean green hydrogen is going to be competitive when Sunlight and Water is harnessed soon. We are looking at HYSR, based in Santa Barbara, California.
Are there eletrolysis available for making hydrogen for home heaters?
Great video. Heating is the elephant in the room when it comes to climate change. It's the biggest contributor to emissions but rarely gets mentioned. I reckon air source heat pumps are the way to go. We already have them in our houses i.e. the fridge.
Hydrogen is a good option.
Always enjoy your informative videos
We are already seeing so much solar energy come online that we have no place to put it, and are forced to curtail production mid-day. This surplus is a made-to-order energy source for electrolyzing and pressurizing hydrogen; after you've pumped your hydro, charged your batteries, spun up your flywheels, and hoisted your weights up the mine shaft, of course.
The natural gas combi (combination) boiler which combines hot water and heating output, is highly efficient in fuel efficiency and size. Natural gas contains a lot of energy. A combis in a small white box on the wall that can supply all the hot water and heating _on demand,_ with no heat storage. To have an electric combi giving _on demand_ heat, it would need cables as thick as your wrists - a three phase electrical supply would be needed. So electric _on demand_ combi boilers are generally thermal stores - the incoming cold water is instantly heated by passing through a heat exchanger immersed in a store of hot water. These tend to be large and floor mounted.
Interesting as always
I can see using hydrogen for the industrial users first, before it changes over to the average household. That would economize the production and also speed up the development of appliances. I do believe we need to stat with improving the efficiency of our construction techniques for houses first. I would also like to see the adoption of the garbage burning system that Sweden uses. They re now importing garbage to recycle and reuse for the production of electricity. We should be concentration on getting rid f our landfills. My 2 cents worth :)
I think hydrogen should be used for long term energy storage at grid level. Meaning that excess wind and solar energy is converted into hydrogen, stored in salt caverns or other large structures and converted back to electricity when needed. This could stabilise the grid between summer and winter even and really allow much more wind and solar power to be used. For stabilising the grid between noon and evening (flow) batteries can be used. Then no hydrogen household inftastructure is needed.
Hi Rene. Sounds like you are agreeing with my previous video then?
Yes, very much so! My compliments to your video's. Hope this is noticed by as many people as possible. I still hear many people talk about hydrogen as if it is an energy source, instead of a way to store energy.
I was under the impression that hydrogen, being the smallest molecule, diffuses more easily thru container walls, making long term storage problematical and increasing wastage and costs. Does anyone have any comments about this?
You're right. Leakage is a problem.
Have you got any info about the efficiency of Heat battery boiler systems using electricity and phase change materials to provide on-demand heat? They use electricity from either solar or overnight cheaper rates. I've only seen a company called Sunamp promoting this idea but it seems like the perfect answer for hot water boilers.
The future is solar, and capacitors. Zero moving parts, limited maintenance.
Storage can also be potential energy. GE getting a patent though seems strange
@Jan van Coppenhagen You missed the key word "Future."
I read something about using solar panels to produce electricity(1), then use the electricity on a utility scale to produce hydrogen(2), then adding the hydrogen to produce a liquid hydro carbon, that can be pumped through existing liquid pipeline infrastructure to where it it is to be used(3), then reversing the process through catalyst to produce hydrogen gas (4) to be run through a fuel cell to produce electricity(5).♻️💫
Hi David. I think that's right, yes. Essentially 'storing' the hydrogen in a transportable liquid that has far weaker bonds than water and then separating it at it's destination point back into hydrogen. It's an interesting option. I believe ammonia works too.
Most all European boiler manufacturers have diversified into heat pumps and district heating, at their own expense. I think that says all we need to know about the viability of Hydrogen boilers. In fairness though, I think maybe the primary goal of putting hydrogen into home heating is to provide a large, but most likely temporary market use, for growing the production infrastructure for hydrogen. Once hydrogen production and distribution gets more established it will be far more useful to use it in more difficult to decarbonise applications like long distance road freight and backup generation for renewables on the power grid.
You know what is a "silver bullet" solution? New nuclear. New nuclear energy generation is safe, clean and has the potential to scale with demand, especially utilising new technology to roll-out a network of smaller reactors. Imagine, every neighbourhood having its own nuclear power station in the hundred megawatt hour range. It could be a glowing focal point for the neighbourhood, a shining beacon of radiant hope for generations to come! maybe.
Good video, but why is there no mention of cogeneration (combined heat and power)?
It can be applied on different scales - individual houses or municipal. Using the hydrogen to generate electricity, and the waste heat for heating, results in very high combined efficiency. Generating heat and power close to the consumer -> less transmission losses.
In the ideal case, a CHP facility for a neighborhood/town could generate its own hydrogen when power prices are low. Remember: curtailment is a real issue in many places and as more renewables go into the energy mix it will become more frequent. (Curtailment - solar/wind farms being forced to shutdown when there is too much energy in the grid. At those times power is effectively free). This way power can be stored cheaply and for long periods of time.
If the need for heating is low, relative to power, there is also the option of using adsorption chillers - cooling units powered by heat, not electricity. It is an old, but not popular technology, recently seeing some uptick in interest.
There are many approaches to cogeneration, both in terms of scale and technology (fuel cells or combustion), the best ones will still have to emerge and become cheaper as the technology gains traction and becomes more popular. That being said, there are likely way over 100,000 of such devices globally, with Germany being the leader in Europe in recent years en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_combined_heat_and_power#Market_status
One thing that people miss when reviewing the new technology around electrification is how we get the electric power. It’s not just a simple as plugging your electric car into the mains. Mass adoption of electric loads like cars and heat pumps are going to increase the load on the grid and I’m not just talking about power generation. Sure at the moment we use 50% gas to power the grid so all those electric car owners thinking they are green are not with so virtuous, but when you have large loads on houses you can end up with an unbalanced supply. Three phase does stranger things when the supply is unbalanced. Heat pumps are not so much of a problem since they are constant loads but when your house is not using one and your neighbour has a heat pump and a electric car then your going to see some issues. I’m not saying we shouldn’t consider electric but we need to the picture for what it is, more complex than just flicking a switch. We are all going to be poorer to accomplish net zero and in the interim or reduction is going to be swallowed by India and China so what we do won’t make any difference to global emissions other than making the general population poorer.
The net result will be that the rich get richer and the poor are giving that money to them. Then again as talkyToaster says “what else is new”
I haven't seen your other video so I don't know if you mentioned it. But there is talk of using the old natural gas lines to transport the Hydrogen in the UK. This is something that makes me go "Hmmmmmmm" on account of the fact that Hydrogen escapes welds really easily.
What is the efficiencies of convert hydrogen into to electricity in the home, I see the gas network of piping is being up graded in our area of Shrewsbury this year, and so this would suggested the idea of using hydrogen to pump around the country is serious. I use inferred panels, and wood fire, as a back up to our oil system. We are currently trying to get an Air Source Heat pump, but the industry is poorly set up and lagging behind with the government current program. But if I opt for in the main electricity as a means to power my home rather than burning things, would help me make up my mind about what direction to go for!
Ultraviolet and infrared sensors were developed and miniaturized a long time ago. I deal with burners every day in my 40 year career. The only reason we don’t use hydrogen in our everyday life is that it takes too much energy to produce sufficient amounts and to much time to generate the amount needed
Nice stereo - loving the content - speaking from the future..lol.
It’s a much smaller molecule...it will leak out of normal hydrocarbon piping and equipment. But I hope it works
You said that there's no commercially available hydrogen boilers. How about Giacomini HydroGem? I haven't purchased one yet, but it sounds like they have a commercial product. Because they use a catalytic reaction rather than a flame, they avoid some of the problems you mentioned with flame based hydrogen heating.
Great content again .... need a solution for exceeding PV energy ... cause I get no money for it
We do , the feed in tariff, you feed it back to the grid in the uk
I suspect there would be low takeup of "Hindenburg" (I.e. H2) boilers due to safety fears. Also the main attraction of gas is that it is better for cooking, but that is not applicable to H2. As such it might be better using scarce resources to focus H2 use elsewhere and instead electrify homes.
Agreed. I suspect its best application might be large transport vehicles, like cargo ships. It would be safer and simpler to just electrify everything in the house and put panels on the roofs.
Heating and cooling of buildings uses a massive percentage of the worlds energy production, but there maybe a way to change this. It would seem meta-materials can be made that are extremely efficient in giving off infra red radiation, able to cool the material even in direct sunlight. You either use this cooling of the material or the radiation given off depending on if you require heating or cooling. This material could also increase many machines efficiency by cooling them.
Personally I can't see hydrogen as a piped-in domestic energy supply - but compressed hydrogen bottles maybe. It looks like hydrogen for domestic energy supply will be best effective as storage of renewable electricity & release to the grid as required. Hydrogen's other effective application is likely to be fuelling trucks, for which the electric option is ineffective because of battery/weight ratios.
Hi Mike. I imagine the hydrogen for heating thing will vary greatly from country to country, but I completely agree with your point on fueling trucks (and ships, buses, trains, and even short haul planes - all of which are either in existence today or a long way into their development.)
In most situations storage in batteries will be dominant, but for weight sensitive applications the inefficiency of the H2 cycle would be an acceptable trade off. For airlines it might be the only solution, but the inefficiencies might make high speed trains more attractive than airlines.
It is discouraging that people only think government bureau is the answer to all of our problems. I have found that government is an answer looking for a problem. Let the free market work and figure out things. It seems that people always get angry when bright minds through hard work and sacrifice create something and profit from it.
The transportation issue could be solved by local smaller size production centres, then the cost of transportation will go to minimum levels almost uneffecting the overall efficiency. You could also have the production of hydrogen on demand in small quantities and the boilers could be installed in a stateless steal compartment so if there is an explosion, no harm will be done. Also technology to improve prevention and early detection of any leaks etc could be improved and AI could be used too.
Saw somewhere on interwebz hydrogen atoms extremely teeny weeny tiny size leaks thru existing piping systems etc.. AND since it has no smell BOOM!
wrong, scaremongering. Coal Gas (town gas) has a lot of hydrogen in it, and is what we grew up with prior to the changeover in 1968. Copper pipes don't leak substantially and don't need changing. I've got the same pipes as we had here in 1960. Nothing has ever blown up or leaked.
and actually, if you look up methane, it's described it as odourless if it's pure. Most people can't smell it if it's pure and doesn't contain ethanes, alcohols or heavier fractions. But I can smell it, as can a substantial proportion of the population. Hydrogen also has a smell that some people can detect, and you could always add something to make that universal, say a tiny amount of SO2 or m/ethanol, detectable at sub-1 ppm.
Hydrogen has problems with both hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion. Hydrogen has an active electron, and therefore behaves somewhat like a halogen.[9] For this reason, hydrogen pipes have to resist corrosion. The problem is compounded because hydrogen can easily migrate into the crystal structure of most metals.[10] For process metal piping at pressures up to 7,000 psi (48 MPa), high-purity stainless steel piping with a maximum hardness of 80 HRB is preferred.[11]
Composite pipes are assessed like:
carbon fiber structure with fiberglass overlay [1].
perfluoroalkoxy (PFA, MFA).
polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
fluorinated ethylene propylene (FEP) [2].
carbon-fiber-reinforced polymers (FRP)
Fiber-Reinforced Polymer pipelines (or FRP pipeline) and reinforced thermoplastic pipes are researched.[12][13][14][15]
@@dickhamilton3517 Because it's so small, Hydrogen can diffuse into metals and cause embrittlement. Even copper is affected, though slower than e.g. steel.
Hydrogen Embrittlement is something the fossil industry is already struggling with, and have been for a very very long time (there was a time when there were many Hindenburgs flying around). So far, the most effective method to slow down Embrittlement is to reduce temperatures to -200°C.
Hydrogen is very reactive. It acts like a halogen because it has a single electron in the first orbital. In other words, it's corrosive.
Acids are corrosive on the basis that it releases a Hydrogen ion into a solution.
Hydrogen is the special ingredient in Acids that make all Acids acidic.
@@dickhamilton3517 Town gas and natural gas are bonded molecules (Hydrocarbons) which are hundreds of times bigger than hydrogen atoms this is why town gas and natural gas will not leak out of systems that would in effect act like a sieve to hydrogen atoms. Comparing molecules to atoms is like comparing a grain of rice to a melon. Hydrogen atoms are so small you cannot use steel pipes for transportation as the hydrogen atoms slowly migrate into the crystalline structure of steel which over time seriously weakens/damages its structure leading to failure on pressurised systems.
I remember the introduction of natural gas, or "North Sea" gas to replace town gas. That was a lot of work, and the change to hydrogen is a significantly more difficult engineering challenge. But in the interim mixing in some hydrogen and a lot of biogas into the mains has the potential to steadily reduce carbon emmissions in the meantime.
I always wondered if most of the things being said about [insert renewable /new tech here] were being said about the switch from coal gas to natural gas.
What about the catalytic process of hydrogenation for combining carbon dioxide with hydrogen to form methanol, a liquid fuel.
The costs per mile of the ionide battery or hydrogen fuel cells are exclusive of fuel duty which is very high in the uk and one day will need to be transferred from diesel and petrol to other fuel sources.
once again we are looking at energy production and not energy conservation ie insulating houses. I can remember we never had central heating in our house just one coal fire providing heat and hot water and I would argue we are more healthier for it
Healthier maybe, except for the respiratory problems caused by coal smoke.