1.49 XXX Corps arrived at GRAVE at approx. 0820 on day three having averaged just over one mile per hour. From there to Heumen, the last intact bridge over the Maas-Waal canal, and on to Arnhem is approx. 25 miles. If XXX Corps had maintained the same pace it would have arrived at Arnhem bridge on the morning of the day Frosts men ran out of ammo and lost control of the north end.
As Nathan Bedford Forrest said in the US Civil War "Get there first with the most". Clearly Browning setting priorities incorrectly (if he had ever been in this area he would have understood how important Nijmegan bridge was).
Fun2 Drive Browning did know that Nijmegen bridge was necessary. That is why General Gavin assigned a battalion to take the bridge immediately, _"without delay"._ They never moved on the bridge. All down to Gavin.
Something I learned while watching your video. Watch out for the 107th Panzer Division. Sides measure victory differently and in this case, with XXX Corps pushing towards Arnhem, the Allies seem to have the upper hand. Although the 1st Airborne was getting decimated.
They were late then sat,the 82nd were fighting their asses off and Carrington oh l mean "LORD" CARRINGTON decides to ignore the open road that the Germans themselves said was theirs for the taking and chooses to sit - MONTY GARDEN
Please correct me here...I beleive the soldier image at the beginning of this video was awarded the VC for his incredible bravery and this gallant gentleman needed up being Jeremy Clarkson's father in law
If you mean the thumbnail image for the video - that's Major General R.E. 'Roy' Urquhart, photographed outside his 1st Airborne Division HQ at the Hartenstein Hotel in Oosterbeek. You're thinking of Major Robert Cain VC, commander of B Company 2nd South Staffordshire Regiment at Arnhem.
Infantry without Armour and Artillery can't be the aggressor. The allies had only medium tanks the Cromwell and the M4 here they needed a breakthrough tank. These were still 6 months away and then the war was over.
Charles van Dijk The Germans did not have tanks around Arnhem when they landing on the 17 September 1944. Why would you need a breakthrough tank when no tanks are there?
Does anyone stop to think, if Gavin takes Nijmegen, he would be encircled by 10.SS and all the scattered units to the south/west? I think, even if we submit that Gavin was wrong, it is quite possible he escaped the 82nd having the same fate as 1st Airborne. The Germans for once also seemed to have plenty of long range artillery support during this operation both 10.5cm and 15cm directed at Nijmegen. Am I wrong? Even if Hammel allowed the 101st to walk into Nijmegen, couldn't they have been trapped in a "Kesselschlacht", encircled and under constant artillery fire? I've read some, but by no means an expert.
The 10.SS-Panzer-Division only had a small bridgehead in Nijmegen formed after the 508th PIR should have taken the brudge with 1st Battalion,and was formed with Euling's panzergrenadier battalion (about 250 men), a company from the division engineer battalion (100 men), and four StuG IIIG assault guns from 7./SS-Panzer-Regiment 10 divided between the two bridges. Other forces in Nijmegen were from the Maas-Waal canal defence line, and after trying to defend the canal bridges or demolishing some of them, filtered back into Nijmegen to be organised into the German bridgeheads. The 10.SS-Panzer-Division were in a precarious position themselves, because Frost had captured the bridge (at Arnhem) on their supply line, making them totally dependent on a ferry crossing at Pannerden that was harassed by the air forces, after another ferry at Huissen had been used by Euling and then scuppered by the Dutch ferryman.
Where were the Tiger Tanks from? Formation wise? I know that Heavy Panzer Company Hummel was in Holland at this time, but were these Tigers from that group?
+KingSNAFU I actually don't know. I can't even be sure if they're from 9th or 10th SS Panzer Division. All I know is "Direct fire was brought to bear by the 88mm guns of a pair of 'Tiger' tanks which managed to nose their way through the wreckage of Graebner's attack from the southern bank." P177, Kershaw, It Never Snows in September.
+TIK They've been referenced a few times and the 506th Heavy Panzer Battalion wasn't committed till a couple days later, but they were equipped with Tiger II's. So my assumptions that they were from Heavy Panzer Company Hummel.
Nice find, SNAFU! I'm beginning to wonder if that sentence I quoted from Kershaw is either wrong or written badly. Did the Tigers cross from the south to the north, or the north to the south?
I think victory could have been still achieved if force of paratroopers (82nd Airborne) and tanks (30 Corps) supported by arty and little air support would have attacked together. It seems the real problem though was the arty support Germans received at Nijmegen. The sad thing about this operation is that Allied forces seemed to be so close to victory and defeat at this point. Yet some of the heads of the operation didn't really seem to try hard enough and push on to victory. Germans in the other hand fought very well, giving Allied forces in the north no chance to reinforce and giving their forces very strong arty support. I guess they were quite surprised to find out that so few men could hold on against their counter attacks at Arnhem road bridge, and so they had to stop British from reinforcing those few men with as much force as they could spare (at least it seems so because that was such an overkill).
+Ville “Villemaisteri” metsänmiettijä the artillery support from the Germans was unique. It was so effective, the commander of Artillery OB West visited the artillery command post to see it in action himself (according to Harmel) The Germans did fight exceptionally well. In almost all instances, they outfought the Allies with smaller groups of soldiers (or even non-soldiers) and inflicted serious set backs in all areas of the battle. There's several reasons for this, but it seems their commanders were free to use their initiative more, and the training the soldiers received was more practical (e.g. the troops weren't trained to march up and down in formation at this stage in the war) than that taught by the Allies.
+TIK never underestimates person with a gun right? Or in this case person with a great commander :D Very interesting to see what happens next because I actually have never known too much about this operation, (only the name and the goal and that it didn't go well) and so it's even a surprise for me to see some of the things that happened during this operation. And the presentation is so good and in detail that I'd say this is the best document I have yet seen.
1.49 XXX Corps arrived at GRAVE at approx. 0820 on day three having averaged just over one mile per hour. From there to Heumen, the last intact bridge over the Maas-Waal canal, and on to Arnhem is approx. 25 miles. If XXX Corps had maintained the same pace it would have arrived at Arnhem bridge on the morning of the day Frosts men ran out of ammo and lost control of the north end.
As Nathan Bedford Forrest said in the US Civil War "Get there first with the most". Clearly Browning setting priorities incorrectly (if he had ever been in this area he would have understood how important Nijmegan bridge was).
Fun2 Drive
Browning did know that Nijmegen bridge was necessary. That is why General Gavin assigned a battalion to take the bridge immediately, _"without delay"._ They never moved on the bridge. All down to Gavin.
Something I learned while watching your video. Watch out for the 107th Panzer Division. Sides measure victory differently and in this case, with XXX Corps pushing towards Arnhem, the Allies seem to have the upper hand. Although the 1st Airborne was getting decimated.
GT
XXX Corps were to reach Arnhem late morning on the 19th. The 1st Airborne were not being decimate up to that point.
They were late then sat,the 82nd were fighting their asses off and Carrington oh l mean "LORD" CARRINGTON decides to ignore the open road that the Germans themselves said was theirs for the taking and chooses to sit - MONTY GARDEN
What’s with the little support? This video is amazing why are there so little likes?
Please correct me here...I beleive the soldier image at the beginning of this video was awarded the VC for his incredible bravery and this gallant gentleman needed up being Jeremy Clarkson's father in law
If you mean the thumbnail image for the video - that's Major General R.E. 'Roy' Urquhart, photographed outside his 1st Airborne Division HQ at the Hartenstein Hotel in Oosterbeek. You're thinking of Major Robert Cain VC, commander of B Company 2nd South Staffordshire Regiment at Arnhem.
Infantry without Armour and Artillery can't be the aggressor. The allies had only medium tanks the Cromwell and the M4 here they needed a breakthrough tank. These were still 6 months away and then the war was over.
Charles van Dijk
The Germans did not have tanks around Arnhem when they landing on the 17 September 1944. Why would you need a breakthrough tank when no tanks are there?
Does anyone stop to think, if Gavin takes Nijmegen, he would be encircled by 10.SS and all the scattered units to the south/west?
I think, even if we submit that Gavin was wrong, it is quite possible he escaped the 82nd having the same fate as 1st Airborne. The Germans for once also seemed to have plenty of long range artillery support during this operation both 10.5cm and 15cm directed at Nijmegen.
Am I wrong? Even if Hammel allowed the 101st to walk into Nijmegen, couldn't they have been trapped in a "Kesselschlacht", encircled and under constant artillery fire?
I've read some, but by no means an expert.
The 10.SS-Panzer-Division only had a small bridgehead in Nijmegen formed after the 508th PIR should have taken the brudge with 1st Battalion,and was formed with Euling's panzergrenadier battalion (about 250 men), a company from the division engineer battalion (100 men), and four StuG IIIG assault guns from 7./SS-Panzer-Regiment 10 divided between the two bridges. Other forces in Nijmegen were from the Maas-Waal canal defence line, and after trying to defend the canal bridges or demolishing some of them, filtered back into Nijmegen to be organised into the German bridgeheads. The 10.SS-Panzer-Division were in a precarious position themselves, because Frost had captured the bridge (at Arnhem) on their supply line, making them totally dependent on a ferry crossing at Pannerden that was harassed by the air forces, after another ferry at Huissen had been used by Euling and then scuppered by the Dutch ferryman.
Do you have a Patreon account?
indeed he does :-)
Where were the Tiger Tanks from? Formation wise? I know that Heavy Panzer Company Hummel was in Holland at this time, but were these Tigers from that group?
+KingSNAFU Perhaps they were part of one of the independent Schwere Panzer Abteilungen?
+KingSNAFU I actually don't know. I can't even be sure if they're from 9th or 10th SS Panzer Division. All I know is "Direct fire was brought to bear by the 88mm guns of a pair of 'Tiger' tanks which managed to nose their way through the wreckage of Graebner's attack from the southern bank." P177, Kershaw, It Never Snows in September.
+TIK They've been referenced a few times and the 506th Heavy Panzer Battalion wasn't committed till a couple days later, but they were equipped with Tiger II's. So my assumptions that they were from Heavy Panzer Company Hummel.
+TIK I actually did find a website that does support my hunch: www.defendingarnhem.com/schpzkphummel.htm
Nice find, SNAFU! I'm beginning to wonder if that sentence I quoted from Kershaw is either wrong or written badly. Did the Tigers cross from the south to the north, or the north to the south?
I think victory could have been still achieved if force of paratroopers (82nd Airborne) and tanks (30 Corps) supported by arty and little air support would have attacked together. It seems the real problem though was the arty support Germans received at Nijmegen.
The sad thing about this operation is that Allied forces seemed to be so close to victory and defeat at this point. Yet some of the heads of the operation didn't really seem to try hard enough and push on to victory.
Germans in the other hand fought very well, giving Allied forces in the north no chance to reinforce and giving their forces very strong arty support. I guess they were quite surprised to find out that so few men could hold on against their counter attacks at Arnhem road bridge, and so they had to stop British from reinforcing those few men with as much force as they could spare (at least it seems so because that was such an overkill).
+Ville “Villemaisteri” metsänmiettijä the artillery support from the Germans was unique. It was so effective, the commander of Artillery OB West visited the artillery command post to see it in action himself (according to Harmel)
The Germans did fight exceptionally well. In almost all instances, they outfought the Allies with smaller groups of soldiers (or even non-soldiers) and inflicted serious set backs in all areas of the battle. There's several reasons for this, but it seems their commanders were free to use their initiative more, and the training the soldiers received was more practical (e.g. the troops weren't trained to march up and down in formation at this stage in the war) than that taught by the Allies.
+TIK never underestimates person with a gun right? Or in this case person with a great commander :D
Very interesting to see what happens next because I actually have never known too much about this operation, (only the name and the goal and that it didn't go well) and so it's even a surprise for me to see some of the things that happened during this operation. And the presentation is so good and in detail that I'd say this is the best document I have yet seen.