Yes, it is hard to read it now because we are the most pampered society of our time, but it is impossible to interpret any historical book correctly anytime we impose "our" worldview upon the text.
Thanks for this video! Having been raised by parents who trusted Christ for salvation, being instructed at home, in church and a Christian School through 9th grade I had all kinds of knowledge about the Bible. However, as an older adult, revisiting old testament writings I became very perplexed with topics such as those addressed in this video. This information has really helped me today. Thanks again.
Unbelievably honoring to God with how this was explained! We will never be able to understand the ways of God but in humility we realize He is sovereign and we are but mere mortals! Thank you for explaining this!
"We will never be able to understand the ways of God.." It sounds like you are saying the answers given in this video are intellectually unsatisfying. I agree they are.. but THIS particular topic IS capable of being understood. There WAS justice in Israel including even the children in their targeting, because even the children were guilty. God does not command the killing of the innocent.
This video cleared up an immense amount of questions i had always carried regarding the story of Lot and his daughters, AND the story of Abraham's discussion with God as well. I really needed this information! I will use it as ground zero, as I continue to study The very essence of the questionings I have in this regard. Alicia and Clay, I know you did the video over 3 years ago. However, if you are reading this now, you need to know that you truly affected me, and blessed me 3 minutes ago. I will be doing more investigation into both of your channels. Thank you for each of your decisions to serve the living God.
Thank you Alisa and Clay! I have a trauma background myself. I had a feeling Clay was going to say, "Trauma induced Sexual Aberrancy is nearly impossible to reverse." He is absolutely right. There are multiple studies on childhood trauma that support this. Its a terrible truth to comprehend. Thank you for speaking truth.
@@amandamcgovern5744 ? I think we had a misunderstanding. I was trying to point out that God’s heart is always for children, no matter what. It’s okay if you disagree. We might be talking past each other. Not trying to be a bother, just thought you would like a thoughtful perspective.
Of the many important points that Clay makes, the most important is how warped our view of sin has become over the past hundred or so years. It's beyond our comprehension that God would actually punish sin through violence. As such, it's easy to understand why those (like Peter Enns) who interpret the violence against the Canaanites as entirely a cultural misunderstanding of God's will by the Israelites at the time are also the same people who reject eternal damnation. Their presupposition is that God is not the sort of God who would do that. Even many evangelicals have unwittingly bought into this view of God, even if they don't draw the conclusions (yet) that Enns draws. You can certainly find this view in most megachurch pulpits.
"Their presupposition is that God is not the sort of God who would do that." If God is an angry hateful god full of revenge ready to do genocides when he can´t control himself, and Jesus would therefore not reflect God in any way" then i do not follow that god even if he existed. But if Jesus is a reflection of what/who God is, and the genocides are ancient peoples interpretations of God, then I will continue to follow Jesus.
Thank you, Alisa and Clay. I am mid 50's and was blessed to be raised in very sound theological Christian home, sunday school and Christian school. I always had these questions but was taught to honor, respect and fear God (not to ask too many questions, but always had a ton of them in my head) and was taught His Character qualities early on. So I knew a Holy God could not tolerate sin and He had to judge sin to balance out His Justice and Mercy. Thank you for clear, biblical, historical based answers that aids a serious follower of Christ along the paths of Wisdom and Understanding.
Proverbs 3:5-6 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
God says that He is good, I trust that He is good. His ways are not my ways, and I may never understand Him fully, but I trust that He is good and just always.
@@alexnunn1932 I have a God who laid His life down for me and suffered so that I could live in paradise with Him. He also happens to be the same God that holds all of creation in His hands and I’m like one human amongst the billions that have existed throughout history. I definitely trust Him more than myself
Could the "uncertainty" be in that one theological view says "God ordered a genocide, but let´s call it something nicer" and another theological view says, "humans 3000 years back interpreted that God initiated a genocide". And you have followed the first theological view, but it seems a bit weird, as you realize that things may not actually be like that.
What a sad world we live in, so true that sin these days is taken so lightly and God who is holy and just has to pronounce judgment against it. God is indeed merciful for not annihilating us all for our wickedness. It's only through Jesus's sacrifice that God was appeased . Thanks so much, Alisa for your helpful podcast. God bless you 🙏💖
@J. Lo You did not listen or do your research before your comments. The text in question says nothing about the Israelites torturing babies. It was the Canaanites who were doing this to their own children--a reason God’s judgment fell on them
@@jonatandjurachkovitch460 religion tells you you are a bad person. As they say... “Christianity tells you your sick then offers the cure..”.. it’s nonsense and I encourage using your brain to think about it for.. 5 milliseconds. You are on here endorsing child and baby genocide. Talking about how you need Christianity (the faith that forces you to support this genocide) in order to be a better person. Step outside yourself for a second. Get a shred of self-awareness. And PLEASE realize how absurd that is.
@@amandamcgovern5744 I'm endorsing God's righteous judgement. Just as when He judged Sodom and Gomorra, he destroyed a nation whose cultural unrighteousness had gotten to that extreme point (they were sacrificing their children. If that custom had continued a few more generations, even more children would have been killed) I have thought about the sickness and the cure a lot, and my conclusion is that the sickness is real, and has extreme consequences. Have you kept the ten commandments?
I thank God for you and your life and all the turmoil you have gone throught in your life. God took you through it for a reason and also blessed you with lots of talents so that you are in this position to tell us your story and how God has gotten you through it and blessed you the other side. May Our Father continue to bless you and your family continually.
AMEN! This truth became so apparent to me when I was reading/studying the Levitical laws. There were laws that offended me. But I had to realize that because of my sin and skewed understanding I can’t fully comprehend God’s holiness.
I got so much from this discussion, particularly the subject about killing the children. Taking us through scenarios of what happens when children are adopted paints a realistic picture. It allowed me to expand my thinking beyond emotions which were naïve. It gives me a more rounded view based upon the Scriptures. Thank you!
I have long shared Clay Jones' video on we do not know what sin is on this topic, so I am delighted to see him on this program. Jones explains well the perspective we should have. God always knows what he's doing and he never does anything that is not wise or just.
Incredible show thanks Alisa and Clay! I am gonna use both of your resources to help someone 'searching' right now but this very topic is the major hangup.Thanks again.
I was reading an eyewitness account of the holocaust the same time my devotions had me in Numbers. It was so hard not to compare the two. I understood the Cannanites practiced idolatry but didn’t understand the depth of their other sins. Thank you for helping me to distinguish between the two
A friend just recommended this video yesterday as we were discussing this very topic. I'm so glad she did! Clay and Alisa, you both have brought light to a very difficult subject and helped me to understand a bit more fully on why God chose to punish the Canaanites with death. Thank you and looking forward to more teaching so we may be prepared to give an answer to the HOPE that lies within us. Blessings!!
So sad we really do still get people defending genocide, making all sorts of excuses, but no explanations. Sadly history has had too many apologists, not enough humanists.
Hey Alisa, I want to thank you for your book. I’ve been reading through it these past couple months, and it has been such a blessing. I encountered Progressive Christianity last year while working, and it challenged my faith like never before. Your book has really helped me in my Christian walk, and I thank you for the hard work you put into it. May our Lord Jesus bless you and your family in these coming years.
A God who wanted the Israelites to ethnically cleanse the entire Canaanite people sounds more like Adolph Hitler to me. To me its a story that reminds us of how dangerous the human animal can be, and how we can use any excuse within our disposal to unleash appalling acts of horror on people, all because they belong to a different ethnic group, culture or religion. Its a story about tribal hate, and nothing to do with the universal God of abiding love and mercy towards all humans, animals and our planet.
Alissa, thanks for the interview. I'm a conservative Christian, and I think your conversation partner made good points. However, I think the biggest discomfort I have with these texts is NOT that infants and children were killed, but that the ISRAELITES THEMSELVES had to do the killing. it's just very difficult for me to imagine being an Israelite soldier in that position. This is why I have no difficulty with the Flood (done by God), but more unease with this passage. Not that it's causing any fundamental slide away from the faith for me, since I've struggled with this for decades. But if you perhaps have time to speak to this, that'd be great!
@@etiennebisset5642 Let me affirm for the record that God has every right to administer justice by the hands of the Israelites. I'm just being honest and saying that I'm glad I've never been asked to do that myself.
Al, everyone who is employed owes their employment to the employer, and must perform according to the rules of that employer, not their own rules otherwise they will be fired from that organization; and that is the right of every employer. Do you remember when God used Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians to chastise Israel? Do you remember when God used the Assyrians to chastise Israel? Everyone created by God, and that does include everyone, owes their very existence to God and He has the absolute right to make sure that they live according to His rules. As far as the children involved are concerned two things should impact our understanding here. The first is the difficulty Moses and the Israelites had leaving Egypt with a mixed multitude (people including themselves in the exodus for totally opposite reasons because they had totally opposite worldviews). The second is the widely held mindset held here in the USA that, even despite the evidence, there is only a blob of tissue in the womb not a baby. So, how are we not like the Canaanites?
Great discussion overall. I did find it strange how Dr. Jones had so much insight into why the Canaanite children needed to be included in God’s judgment on Canaan, and then turned around and said that they deserved eternal glorification because of an age of “innocence.” I agree that they could very well have been saved, but not because of “innocence.” Simply put, our second birth is a work of the spirit, who like the wind, “blows wherever it pleases.” We don’t know what happened to those children, but we do know that God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful.
This was really good. I love that he preached the Gospel towards the end. I always listen to the Gospel presentation as if it was my first time. Such a great reminder.
This is it in a nutshell... those who are offended at God for being God, and bringing judgment upon sin, are not worthy to be called by His name for one very simple reason; they hold the sanctity of man above the holiness of God. That, my friends, is backwards. He is God, not you.
Listening to this breaks my heart...because I shared it with my son and he says he disagrees with your premise and its acceptance of its necessity, making it a list of ancient practices we would either find abhorrent or fine, depending on where we are on the earth....he is so lost. Please pray for him. Culture and Intellect are his gods.
I think he is using his mind. What is wrong with questioning or trying to find out why things are troublesome. It is a normal process of having a mind that allows you perceive, analyse and question. If I had a son like that I would encourage him to read, listen, research those things he questions and let truth lead him where it may. Good luck.
Laurel Webster, I will pray for your son. My son would probably say the same thing and I haven't had a chance to share this with him. He was raised in a loving, Christian home, Sunday School and Youth Group but his present World view does not show it. 🥺😰 it is definitely heartbreaking! 💔
Mildred Martinez, I myself love to study, dig, research and learn and I question stuff all the time, from news, to politics, to my pastor's sermons, to internet information. I would strongly encourage someone to do that. Sadly, my own son and many of his generation do not want to study, research or engage in friendly, intellectual discusson. They seem to want to argue or press their view, without hearing anyone that disagrees with them. I would love to sit down with my own dear son and be able to have a meaningful conversation and bounce ideas off each other. I keep hoping and praying for that anyway. And with this particular information, I feel hopeful that maybe we finally can. 🙌🙏
Perhaps your son is naive to how grave sin really is. Coming from a broken home and having experienced many upsetting things in my upbringing, I often think some children who are sheltered (with the best intentions of their parents) have a poor understanding of how devoid of any good and depraved some people can be, so they find God’s judgement and laws to be ‘too harsh’, not realising what those laws and judgements truly restrain. But, it may just be he has to go through a time of having his eyes opened to these things, before he can return to you and appreciate your position.
This brought tears to my eyes. So much truth in this discussion. GOD REVEALED something to me from this great conversation. GOD BLESS you both. It all made so much sense to a trye BORN AGAIN believer. 🙏📖
I was adopted and sexualy abused as a child by two different women. I didn't come to know some biblical truth until the age of 21. Then I was a Jehovah's Witness until January of this year. I have been brought to the Lord. Please listen to me when I Clay states that you become who your parents or abusers are. I too became sexualy active with children my own age, due hopefully to being abused by these women, I knew no boundaries, I was and am to this day a broken vessel. I thank God that I have been rescued. I thank Jesus Christ so much!! Because some days I too feel as though I could be a Canaanite. When Satan (Molech) breaks people down, we lose our moral compass. I understand today, why Yahweh had those men, women and Children killed. And for this I'm grateful. I too have died to myself. If it were not for the love of Christ, I too would be deserving of death. And this is okay, I get it. It is not my place to argue with our Creator. It is ever so important to know the facts, so as to be able to defend the facts. As an abused and broken person who has also perpetrated this abuse onto others as a child and teenager due to the abuse I experienced, believe what you hear. It must be so easy having grown up in a model family so to speak. But, when you have grown up with nothing but abuse and disfunction, it takes years and years and years of Christian teaching to get any normal semblance of being whole again. I cannot thank you Jesus Christ and my heavenly Father enough for seeing what good there was left in me and redeeming me for I was as good as dead and wicked to the core. This damage still manifests itself today friends in having impure and wicked thoughts which thankfully do not trouble me nor impact anyone else. I really hope that this helps Christians who have grown up in normal homes understand how and why our loving father had no choice destroying these people and their children. At least the children would have been saved and are now living in heaven until we receive our new earth and live forever with the Lord of lords and kind of all king's, come Lord Jesus come. Amen. And thank you having mercy on a sinner like me xxx
@Gabriel76 Reading your comment reminded me of Psalm 111: _The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise_
Both Paul and Jude reference 1 Enoch in their respective epistles and held the book in very high esteem. I strongly recommend reading it to get a fuller view of the origin story of the giant clans (Nephilim) that arose due to the transgressions of the Watchers (angels) in Genesis 6. When you understand just how irredeemably evil these beings were, it is completely understandable why God would tell Joshua to devout them to destruction (annihilate them all).
This woman. One of the best shows on utube as good at the long form interview as Dr Sean McDowell, Megyn Kelly, or anybody. Great guests. I learn so much here. So encouraging. God bless her, what a gift to find this show.
Ethnic cleansing is fine if "god" gives the order ? Please, just listen to yourselves. 37:20- "It is not always wrong to kill the innocent." This is sick.
@@rainbowgames1 1) In the example of the mother, it could be a necessity to choose, if one life will end and the other go on, or even both could die. 2) In the Hiroshima example, it is not a necessity to bomb, it is an act. There was also no guarantee that the bomb ended the war and saved lives.... it could have created a domino effect where other nations would have come to defend Japan against the bigger evil - who dropped the worst bomb in human history. 3) In the case of God, there was no necessity to kill the people, even if SOME of them had sinned. In the examples and bible places given, God is claimed to have said that the Israelites should not do the sins that are done in Egypt, nor should they do as the Canaanites. * What does this mean? The Egyptians (some of them) were as big sinners as the Canaanites, but God decided to kill just one group of people. Fair? Just? Then if you think further... does anyone seriously think that EVERY HUMAN being in that town or group of people were as sinful? Children, and the victims of rape, child molestation, abuse were also killed, like if they were the bad guys????? seriously?????
Pjotrill - you went over your head on the Hiroshima comparison. two bombs dropped. Each with a death toll of roughly 250,000 after 10 years. Option B if no bombs dropped was mainland invasion. Every single Japanese town prepare to fight to the death. They were trained to even use farming equipment. Estimated death toll 10 million over many years. but to the bigger point if you really want truth and you pray to the creator to show you who He really is, He will. And yes He is Jesus and yes Jesus did die for the sins of all mankind and yes Jesus is God and yes He rose from the grave and yes He is the only way. Unless you open your heart to that truth you will continue to use your creative mind to distort reality as you have done here
@@1doceth Your argument isn´t an argument against what I said "Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) was not a NECESSITY! Do you agree? It was a choice - that was what I claimed. Secondly I claimed that there was no guarantee in that moment of decision to drop the bomb(s) that it would bring peace. In your OWN claim you say that the Japanese towns were ready to fight until death.... they did not do that, they stopped after the bombing. You claim an ESTIMATED death toll for an invasion... again, an invasion is an act, not a necessity. Just as unscientific, I could say that if the US made an invasion to two towns showing their force, killed only 5000 Japanese they COULD HAVE surrendered, spearing the lives of 245.000 people. WE DO NOT KNOW... maybe threatening to use the atomic bomb, unless Japan would have made a peace deal would have accomplished that... there are thousands of choices to act, and the decision to drop atom bombs on a country was one of them. NOT A NECESSITY! I don´t distort reality - Jesus said HE is the truth, so the truth is what I stand for. Any time someone distorts the truth, I will point that out. Follow the truth and you stand with Jesus.
We also need to remember that at one point the canaanites knew God and worshipped Him. Just like Israel, they walked away from the truth and judgment came 400 years later. I think that’s also an important point to make.
Wow I did not know the depth of this about the Canaanites. THANK you for this video. This helps to understand so much. My daughter and I hear so many questions and comments about the Bible. I have started listening 🎧 to Frank Turek who also has answers to so many questions. THANK you both.
This guy is speaking the truth, even though it's a very hard to hear. I was adopted at birth, met my mother at age 16 and my father at age 27--I found out that we have SO much in common, it's crazy. I was always drawn to think about my biological family before I knew them. On the other hand, my adoptive parents took in three girls ages 5, 3, and 1, whose mother committed suicide--all 3 girls had different fathers who had left the mother, and there was substance abuse, sexual abuse, and also neglect. My mom who raised me always wanted a lot of children and just assumed that she'd raise these girls in the church and give them plenty of love and support and that would break the cycle of generational sin. Unfortunately, as adults, all three girls have been in and out of jail multiple times, involved in substance abuse and sexual promiscuity, etc. It's like they've been predisposed to follow in the sin of their past---and because their past is somewhat mysterious, it's like they yearn for it, even if they don't want to. (added for clarity) Yes, I agree that Jesus does not view people as completely hopeless, and nor does Jesus justify abortion, or genocide. I'm sorry that my story is so offensive. I maintain a relationship with my sisters, pray for them, and treat them with respect, and not as hopeless individuals who were offered the short hand of the stick.
@@melvinsorensen4587 The effects of sin continues throughout generations, but the life of Jesus shows even more how he came for those who've been hurt by the effects of sin. "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for ALL people- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who WANTS ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL people. " 1 Timothy 2
@@melvinsorensen4587 So, is Jesus the cult leader that you are referring to? Because, we follow Jesus, not Clay Jones. Clay Jones doesn't even follow himself and doesn't have followers. He follows Jesus. Jesus shows everyone HIS way, it's a new way, a way of humility and love. He gives everyone the opportunity to choose life instead of death and welcomes everyone who acknowledges Him as Lord to live in this new way--this way without murder, but even further, without hate, and yes, without genocide. The old has gone and the new has come. Jesus opens his arms to those who've been born into sin, those whose parents have taught them to sin, those who've been victims all their life and even if they know better, they feel entrapped by sin...he welcomes them, makes them new, and adopts them into the family of the Kingdom of His life. This is the new covenant in his blood that Jesus himself talks about and refers back to prophecies from the Old Testament (which is also called the Old Covenant) Jeremiah 31 ,“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” That scripture is also referenced in Hebrews 8, and 10 Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Luke 22:20 20 In the same way, after the supper he (Jesus) took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
@@melvinsorensen4587 That's fair for you to not believe Jesus is real. So what do you believe? Yes, you've already said you're anti-cults. I'm gathering that you're really into psychology. What do you believe about spirituality, and about God?
@@songsgardensbyjenniferlynn3242 excellent question, metaphysical/spiritual/god are not provable/tangible/corporeal and is completely subjective, therefore is evidential only to the beholder... Whereas, the observable universal objective truth principles and laws of knowledge, logic, and reason that transcends history, cultures, and cannot be denied or refuted. Thus one can reasonably accept it as truth.
Before I became a true Christian I heard a statement that stunned me. The individual said that God was the greatest murder that ever existed. He mention the killing of the Canaanites especially the children and babies., I almost agreed with him but I didn't have much bible knowledge., With God's grace a few years later I became a repentant born again Christian and was fortunate enough to attend a verse by verse teaching bible church. Besides the regular Sunday teachings we also had bible studies on Wednesday and Friday. In one of these studies we were in this section where the Canaanites were killed. The pastor pretty much explained, as you two did, and I came away with a better understanding of God's mercy and justice. To God be the glory.
Thank you for the video! Perfect timing, I was just reading This in the Bible last week and was asking God for clarity on it and was pleasantly surprised right now by the video and to make things better Clay Jones is the one being interviewed. I really love his work!
Just reflect for a few seconds... if you happened to be born as a Canaanite, yes you saw some bad people, but you also knew good neigbours and family, you got some children and worked for them to get food, and tried to teach them something, and then God decided that he will send a group of people to totally destroy everything, and kill everyone, including your children. Can you explain to me what CLARITY and PLEASANT SURPRISE you have found in that? As for me it is clear that it is quite evil. If I acted as God was described to do, would you say my actions were good?
@@nathanaelh4750 One thing is if deals with the issue, another thing if the arguments are good enough to be taken seriously, or if they are like "hey we need to find a spin how to get out of this". There are many unsolved problems with the claims made. If I was in court and had those two as my lawyers, I would be afraid I am loosing the case. As an example the reference to flight 93 is very weak, as flight 93 was destined for a suicide mission = all people onboard would be killed ANYWAY, so taking down that plane was 1) not for the purpose to kill them all 2) the pilots lives could save more lives on the ground. When God orders to kill (against his own commandment ?????) it is not with the purpose to save lives, it is a brutal genocide, where the victims of rape (they tried to describe) were also chosen to die, as if they were the perpetrators.
@@nathanaelh4750 I asked you a question and you ran for the hills for some reason. Nathanael, why was it ok to slaughter the innocent babies and young children?
@@nathanaelh4750 let me ask you a hypothetical: is there ANYTHING the Bible could say that would make you think critically? In the video, the apologists suggest that if a reader doesn't understand something in the text it is ALWAYS the readers problem (epitome of cult thinking I might add). What if the Bible said explicitly "raping children is holy" and then gave instructions on how to do it.? Would that passage just be something to which you said "I don't understand yet but that is my problem and I'm sure God had a good reason."? Or would that cause you to question whether or not the text was actually from a god. This is an important question to consider. IS THERE ANYTHING THE BIBLE COULD SAY THAT WOULD MAKE YOU RECONSIDER ITS DIVINITY?
Thank you so much for this biblical and truth filled explanation. I have wrestled myself as I read through scripture with why God took the lives of a whole nation and why He took the children. But this explains so much. Thank you 💕
So kuch to think about here! I happened to read this very passage this morning, then found this a few hours later. Really good info, and helped a lot to think through some difficult issues! Thank you!
Christians of RUclips who don’t think this video was sick: Is there ANYTHING the Bible could say that would make you question it’s divinity? Anything at all?
The fact so many 'pastors' do not teach why God sent His people to judge Canaan is an indictment of those 'pastors'. The fact is, they don't know. They either haven't read the scriptures dealing with it or they haven't understood them. The same problem so many of them have with Genesis first eleven chapters relating to Creation etc..
Ok, you are not going to like what I am going to write. I am a going to be blunt. I am going light you both up. I was a marine who saw combat. After the war, I took a decade to process, to evaluate my life and my decisions. One war experience ties with this topic of this video and changed the direction of my life. A fleeing group of people were killed in combat. In the Marines, we are taught the laws of war that are founded in basic morality. We are not allowed to target non-combatants. This is a war crime. As a marine we are duty bound to reject all orders and authorities that advocate for war crimes. I reject god for ordering the command to complete a war crime of the darkest most evil sort. So here we are with two people on RUclips advocating war crimes. They sit in air conditioned rooms in front of cameras and defend, on an individual close combat level, the hunting and killing of infants. With glasses of ice water at their side, they defend the hunting of children through the desert after these children witnessed the killing of their families. I learned one thing on the desert of Kuwait, Islam is a terrible religion and then I discovered to my surprise that Christianity is just as bad. This video is an example of that.
Thank you, this cleared up so much for me about the reason God would call for the deaths of children. I have friends who have either adopted or fostered and the children wanted their biological parents just as you said.
This was a great podcast. Very insightful and informative. I have been deeply contemplating this podcast for a couple days and now have a legitimate concern. Particularly about the children. As I was thinking about how we've come to this conclusion that God ordered the killing of innocent children for the good of Israel's sake, and that in doing so God was merciful to them in ultimately saving them, how can I present this to someone without them turning around and saying to me, "Then why are you against abortion? Wouldn't this logic justify abortion?" Any insight would be appreciated, thanks.
Christian, I'm thinking through your concern in context of the information shared in this video and I have a couple clarifying questions... 1. Who would Israel be (God ordered the killing of children for Israel's sake) with regard to the abortion situation? 2. Do you think it makes a difference whether it is God ordering the killing vs a man or woman who doesn't want it? If so, what is the difference? 3. With the abortion scenario, if God isn't the one ordering it, then who is the one being merciful to the children being killed? These are not scarcastic questions, I'd really like to know your thoughts. Blessings to you!
What an edifying conversation and fantastic perspective on so many angles! Know what else is fantastic? That we can KNOW where we go when we die... Are you going to heaven? Most people would say that they’ve been good enough to get into heaven. Would you pass the test? Let’s take a quick look! 1. How many lies have you told in your whole life? 2. Have you ever stolen anything no matter how little the value? 3. Have you ever use the Lords name in vain (like OMG)? These are three of the 10 Commandments and if you answered yes to these questions that would make YOU like the rest of US. Judged by God’s standards, would you be innocent or guilty? Heaven or hell? The 10 Commandments are God’s moral law and we’ve all broken them. The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) which means we have all earned death (hell). But because of God’s love he has provided a way to heaven (1 Timothy 2:4). He sent his son Jesus Christ to pay the price for us. Jesus lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins (1 John 2:2) and rose bodily from the grave three days later to give us life. Jesus took the punishment we deserve on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). If we believe and put our trust in Him we too can have eternal life in heaven (Acts 16:31). Repent (which means turn from your sins and not live the life of a hypocrite) and trust Jesus today!
I don't get if. If you don't actually think these justifications can withstand scrutiny (which you don't, otherwise you would have eagerly listed one), why are you still ok with it? That's what is baffling to me. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm relieved you understand that these rationalizations don't make sense, but still... were you just wanting an explanation soo soo bad that you were willing to accept anything? Imagine your country announced that it was bombing its enemy and, the children were going to be parentless so, they were going to send in troops to each house to stab the kids and babies in the heart. Sound just fine with you?
@@amandamcgovern5744 This is to me the really scary part - that Christians who follow Jesus, the truth, who said we should not HIT BACK, we should LOVE and care for others, forgive, not 7 but 77*7* times, can, because of ONE untrue claim, come to the conclusion that God wanted a genocide, defend it and seek untrue twisted explanations to defend it. If a Christian cannot see that there is something really dizzy behind these excuses, then I wonder if that person walks in the truth and light, or if they are like a blind person who cannot lead another blind. What else could they be mislead about?
@@PjotrII after watching this video I immediately went to the comment section expecting to see push back from Christians. How naive. What I saw instead made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Blind acceptance. Incredible. Don’t they understand that the excuses in this video can and have been used to justify every genocide in history? Terrifying.
@@amandamcgovern5744 I expected mostly the comments we can read... " oohh , now I understand it"... "oooh, now it is ok"... the reason is that there is more fundamentalism in the US, than what we have in my country. I also became really happy to see your text, because it shows someone is thinking, and dear to speak truth, and question claims. Which again are not things that are highly regarded in fundamentalist circles. As I said, it scares me (not that we have different opinions inside Christianity) but that ONE FALSE CLAIM can lead otherwise honest people totally astray, and be blinded, even defend what is evil. And as you say, ANY genocide could be justified by saying - well they sinned. A nuclear attack on North Korea or Iran or anybody, Mexico (who will not pay for the wall) could be justified by "well they sinned" - and therefore this genocide is OK. It is VERY similar to the other big threath in the US, Qanon believers. Anything Q says is true, and if you would show proof of the opposite "you are wrong and Q is right"? Why - they have decided it is so. You can´t use reason and argue with that type of thinking. Christians should be educated, and they should embrace science, then we can debate and discuss different views in a serious environment. Everything good to you Amanda! At least I am confident that you won´t start the next genocide in the name of God.
Thank you for this! The pastor at the church I currently attend said that God was using Hyperbolic War Rhetoric and didn’t mean that ALL canaanites needed to be killed. This didn’t sit well with me, as the tone was similar to… “Did God really say…?” This helped to clarify! The comment about it not always being morally wrong to kill the innocent seems hard to digest. Especially as I’ve just finished Scott Klusendorf’s book The Case for Life, which bases it’s argument against abortion as it being morally wrong to take the life of an innocent human being. I’m curious to know how CJ would reconcile these two topics that stand on similar ground. Thanks!
Thank you! Yes! I love how completely you explained all this. I'm just beginning to read your book on Evil. I particularly appreciate that you covered that the children likely went to heaven. When we look at the age God separated the children of Isreal who lived to see the Promised Land and who died in the Wilderness, it gives us clues to age of accountability. In this light, God IS merciful in taking out the children of Canaan. This seems consistent with His character, too. He is good and He is just. His ways are higher than ours.
When I was very young, between 3-7 my family read the Bible and talked to me about the Bible and stories from it. My first real and only church experience was at 7. My grandparents took me to Catholic church. During this service when the "father" began reading from the book of Revelation my eyes literally closed. The More I tried to force my eyes open to read revelation I got a worse and worse headache. After this I went home and prayed. God told me to read the entire book before I read Revelation. So I began. Over the next 17 years I read and studied the Bible in its entirety, but eventually focused on the new testament, specifically Matthew Mark Luke and John.....during this time between 7 and 24 years old many times I tried to read revelation, even just a few sentences. And every time I tried to read it my eyes would physically close and I would get a headache. However, I did read the first few verses of revelation MANY times over that period as I started the book of Revelation a thousand times, but I couldn't get past the first 4 or 5 verses when I tried. Sometime in the summer of 2000, when I was 24, I began trying to read the book of revelation and this time God let me. No more headaches or eyes closing. It was then very shortly into reading it something stuck out, But I didn't know exactly what, It was a feeling in my gut, so I asked God what am I missing.. He said "Listen closer." After reading the beginnning of revelation numerous times I finally realized I recognized a phrase, Rev...1:3. "for the time is near". Until this point I even though I had read it numerous times before, I was so focused on reading more before my eyes would close and a headache would start I didn't hear it closely until this point. I immediately began searching where else I heard that phrase. Soon I found it; In Luke chapter 21, verses 7-8: This is where Jesus Christ specifically tells us to not follow the many who come in his name claiming 'I am He' and "the time is near"- Jesus says do not follow those who use that exact phrase. I eventually googled the phrase and found that the author of revelation uses that phrase twice. I asked God if what He was showing me is proof that he warned US about Revelation and that it is a false prophecy- He said "what does My Word The Bible say?" Listen, the reason how I know this doesnt matter because it doesn't change what Jesus says; Jesus says do not follow the many who come in His name claiming 'the time is near' - the author of Revelation then uses that EXACT phrase TWICE, once in the first chapter and again in the last chapter: effectively sealing the entire prophecy called Revelation with a phrase JESUS CHRIST tells us not to follow anyone who uses it. Since 2000 I have been quietly talking to people and showing them this. Whomever will listen- which hasn't been many. In August of this past year(2020) I asked God what else am I supposed to do. He said make a video and tell everyone. So, I did. ruclips.net/video/SN5GjLnW2SY/видео.html If you have questions, ask away. your brother, Adam A
Hello my friend the verse says "I am He AND the time is near". So people claiming to be God and predicting the apocalypse. As an ex New Ager I can tell you that in my old community people regularly said I Am Christ consciousness etc and they said the time is near. They called it the great awakening. The Apostle John never claimed to be God my friend. I think if you were willing to look at the Greek the words are most likely different but they're same in English because our language is way more simple than Greek. John is not the anti-Christ. I also saw what you said about how you couldn't read revelation with out getting a headache and getting drowsy. The sounds like demonic oppression to me and I actually felt a bit drowsy and spaced out watching your video which is a big red flag and leads me to think that there is a demonic spirit behind your video. Please do some prayer and fasting and pray for deliverance.
If people read the Bible in its ANE context (the way it’s supposed to be read), understanding the Conquest narrative is not difficult. The issue is much of the western Church has opted to divorce the supernatural components of the Bible (Genesis 6:1-4 for instance) to take a views more palpable to our modern minds (Augustine’s Sethite view of the same passage). We lose so much when we divorce the Bible from its intended context.
Years ago I struggled with these questions; why does the Lord destroy a nation or a people? Why would the Lord kill Uzza, when all he did was try to keep the ark of the covenant from falling. The book of Judges is excellent for revealing the cycles of disobedience and obedience. We're no different and must be warned repeatedly. Romans 11:22 KJV - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Isaiah 63:10 ESV - But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Romans 15:4 ESV - For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
I'm taking the Unseen Realm class that Dr. Heiser has online. The first 15 week class was awesome and covers the first half of the book. I'm in the second 15 week session now. We just went through the Israelite conquest of Canaan. Definitely a problem with the Nephilim that needed to end.
For me also Capitol Punishment is saying in effect that we can't handle this person here so we give them to God who may perfect and redeem them on the other side in ways we cannot do here.
Can you have a guest on to discuss the concept of slavery as it is outlined in the OT? The differences between Hebrew and non slaves, etc. This is something a lot of us struggle with and I know unbelievers struggle with it too.
This was truly insightful. At the same time, I think this is another example of something that was intended to inform the future. Which is why we should be grateful.
Why are these passages difficult for Christians? Don’t you trust God? He commanded it, and everything He does is good, so it must be just. Why does God need to explain? He doesn't. He told you He’s just so why ask any more questions? Why do you need an explanation? Just have faith. If people left the faith because of these difficult passages, then it’s cause they didn’t have enough faith in God’s character. 20:03 - "God knows who will repent." Oh, so it's okay for God to kill them then? Rejecting God in the long term means its ok to be killed? Why create them at all in the first place? That would eliminate their evil ways on earth, their practices, the people they kill or injure, and it eliminates the need for Israelites to kill people and children. 22:57 - "You. Don't. Know. That." Clay's response to those who think there must have been good people in Canaan. Which is an odd response if you had contrary evidence to point to. And you can't use the Bible to support the Bible. So Clay, do YOU know that there were not good people in Canaan? How do you KNOW? Or are you just trusting what the Bible says? Did he give any evidence for the Canaanites raping everyone, including children and animals? I didn't hear any. Clay even stated that not all Canaanites were that bad. 28:40 - "the Lord says straight out, 'if you dont kill them all, then they're going to corrupt you." But if the Israelites are attacking one of the "less bad" Canaanite cities outside of the promise land, and one of the Israelites sees an attractive woman amongst the captives, he's allowed to marry her (Deut 21:11). Is she more or less likely to corrupt an Israelite than children are? Israel took in 32,000 virgin girls from the Midianites in Numbers 31. Did they not worship false gods? Moses commands all the boys to be killed in this instance so they must've thought they were a threat or very wicked. Why not the 32,000 virgins? ~38:00 - the morality of shooting down Flight 93. We are humans who are not all powerful. We can only operate within our power. Sometimes we have to make those hard decisions. It's life. Now, is God bound by the same limitations that we are? In the Flight 93 situation, God could have many things that humans cannot. He could have softened the hearts of the hijackers. He could have made sure that plane couldn't fly that day. He could have killed the hijackers in their sleep the night before. He could have caused the plane to crash but miraculously save all the innocent people. SO WHY DIDN'T HE? Why did He make us have to decide if we should kill innocent people? Humans have to let some innocent people die because we are extremely limited. All we can do is hope that we are saving more people than we are hurting. What is God's excuse? If humans could have done any of those things, then we wouldn't have to considered shooting down a plane full of innocent people. What is God's excuse? 40:29 - children under a certain age go right to heaven and are saved. Please tell me how this doesn't support abortion if the child is from a bad, abusive, or unstable home? If you're against abortion, then stop being so focused on this life. Stop being so "here an now" focused.
Perfect timing. I just finished Joshua and had trouble understanding all the mass killings. The Old Testament has always been so difficult for me to grasp.
Bcuz its crazy violent humans writing shit and saying God wrote it down to kill innocent peoples/children, and give 10-14yr old virgins to soldiers (Numbers), and marriage was a money wager between men...SICKning. “God” also tells how slaves should be owned, and MARK 10:18- Jesus says, “Why do you call me good, only God alone is good.” ✅mate. RUclips has killed the Bible and exposed all the bullshit abominable behavior by “God.” OF COURSE God DIDNT WRITE ANY OF THAT SHIT, pyschopaths in the Middle East did. Durh. Thats how u understand it bub / Roman James. In the year 150a.d. the Flavian Ceasars/Romans created Jesus to calm down the Jewish Messianic crazies that were breaking the Roman Laws with the Messiah silliness...200-300 dying and rising messiahs around Jesus’s time. Look up the documentary on RUclips- Flavians Romans created Jesus. Dare to watch it to see.
@@350yardteeshotsmakesgolfez Thats a lot to take in, I don’t agree with gods wrath in the OT but apparently majority of the killings were done to Fulfill his promises to his people. Of course I don’t believe the selling of any human is acceptable under any circumstances today, but the culture was entirely different. Honestly I don’t have a good understanding of the OT so I can’t really debate on what’s right and wrong. I completely disagree with the ending of your comment, I do believe in the prophecies that Jesus Christ did fulfill!
@@PjotrII Thats tough to answer, there are many things I don’t agree with in the OT but that’s because I’m allowing my feelings to get in the way. This verse does help me see things a bit clearer Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts
"Wipe them all out and take their land by force"? How can this be divine punishment if the animals, the children, the babies, the women and others noncombatant are killed or taken captive as well? That is the textbook definition of genocide, ethnic cleansing and supremacy. That's utter nonsense and I remain unconvinced by your argument Clay. What's more likely is that this story was made up by people after the fact to help justify why the Israelite have settled in that piece of land in the Old Testament. This piece looks to me like intellectual gymnastic and post -rationalization.. Not convincing at al!!
There's something in the distorted heart of humanity that desires to usurp God's sovereign authority over what is truly just. We say that we want justice but really haven't considered the implications for our own lives. I would much prefer God's mercy in the Gospel rather than a Christ-less justice.
Including the Aprocrypha (the contested books which are included in the Roman Catholic Bible but disregarded from the Hebrew version), the total number of people that were killed by God in the Bible for which specific numbers are given is approximately 2,821,364. By comparison, Satan's kill count is 10 (The 7 sons & 3 daughters of Job), & even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it in what appears to be a part of a bet. Job 1:1-19 seems to indicate that both Satan & God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. Justification for these killings includes disobedience, burning of incense, complaining, homosexuality etc. God has many methods of killing; animal attacks, plagues, famines, falling walls, war, fire etc. This, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No numbers are provided to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc. If we assign numbers by estimation to the un-numbered killings by God in the Bible, the approximate number is around 25-28 million people killed by God & only 60 by Satan.
Clay Jones has monumental task of explaining intent for God's plan Judgement, redemption and salvation. At what point do the transgressions of the individual corrupt the corporate body entirely. Incest, beastiality, human sacrifice, demon worship and the question becomes why did it go on so long. A loving God could be no longer loving and judged worthy to ignore absolute moral depravity. Strong arguments here thanks and gratitude in Jesus's name no one else was found WORTHY....👆🤍👰♂️
@J. Lo they were abused and would become the abusers of other children- this is sin- this is the heart of man- ‘the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?’- God does-He gave them centuries to change (repent)- they were more interested in idol worship and depravity--God saved future generations of children being abused and other nations around Canaan who would want to copy their customs-and don’t forget it was Satan behind these ugly abuses becoz he hates mankind
There is a basis to this topic which is very evident in most, if not all, 1st world countries. It is the same issue that was brought up in the Book of Job, chapter 38, pride and ego. Who created everything, including us? Who has the right then, the absolute right, to govern that which was created? The Creator or us? For example, everyone who is employed owes their employment to the employer, and must perform according to the rules of that employer, not their own rules otherwise they will be fired from that organization; and that is the right of every employer. Everyone created by God, and that does include everyone, owes their very existence to God and He has the absolute right to make sure that they live according to His rules or they can be fired. His timing for any correction or judgment, which is His choice, is His timing according to His purposes. His methods are His methods according to His purposes and according to His perfectly just justice. I defer to the Book of Job, chapter 38.
Alissa there is no theological excuses no justification for killing childrens. "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do." Jesus of Nazareth
The brave israelites ran through babies with swords, dashed them against walls and celebrated. Oh, don't adopt children is a message here. How can I accept this? I have to?>>>I have trouble believing God is good as it is due to my traumatic experience with Scupulosity, which is caused by mental illness, a topic the Church is silent on...Maybe I'm just too angry to think straight right now. As if anyone cared.
These are hard truths to accept but i believe scripture bears out their accuracy. I have often wondered if abortion hasn't done more to fill heaven than the churches. That is a sad indictment on our generation but a beautiful demonstration of the heart of mercy in our God.
Thank You Lord. I was just reading this YESTERDAY, and was confused. I thought that was the promised land? I was struggling to move on from this passage. I looked up a few commentaries, but they didn't resolve my dis-ease with it. Thank you for helping me.
This was a super helpful video in general! One part confused me and I’m hoping for clarity. Is Clay Jones against adoption? I know this topic isn’t the point of the video, but how he discusses modern day adoption and a accompanying article of his, makes it seem like modern day adoption is bad in some way. Can someone clarify if you know what part of the video I’m referring to?
what do you think the best rationalization was for actively murdering children? which one was it that put your mind at peace? if you think it can withstand even slight scrutiny, you should have no problem explaining what it was.
@@PjotrII I know what you need, my friend. Look up "Crucifixion of the warrior God“ in 2 volumes by Greg Boyd... There are also several excellent videos on RUclips, named after the books, of him explaining his conclusions after years reading the Church Fathers etc. He will help you have some clarity about what is going on and how to interpret it. Brilliant and humble guy. I know it will help. Take care 😃
This is God getting rid of bad seed, there are certain bands these days referring to boast of being of bad seed. Today is the gathering of the harvest.
It's hard when we read scripture through the lens of our culture and time.
Yes, it is hard to read it now because we are the most pampered society of our time, but it is impossible to interpret any historical book correctly anytime we impose "our" worldview upon the text.
@@rocketscientisttoo I'd say it's hard because we have become smarter and don't just accept such silly nonsensical barbarisms that easily anymore.
@@pelgrim8640 -but it will come again.
@@masada2828 Unfortunately, yes, religious superstition keeps rearing its ugly head.
But the "nons" are fortunately growing in numbers.
So if your God told you to kill babies who can't even walk or talk yet you will do it?
Thanks for this video! Having been raised by parents who trusted Christ for salvation, being instructed at home, in church and a Christian School through 9th grade I had all kinds of knowledge about the Bible. However, as an older adult, revisiting old testament writings I became very perplexed with topics such as those addressed in this video. This information has really helped me today. Thanks again.
Unbelievably honoring to God with how this was explained! We will never be able to understand the ways of God but in humility we realize He is sovereign and we are but mere mortals! Thank you for explaining this!
"We will never be able to understand the ways of God.."
It sounds like you are saying the answers given in this video are intellectually unsatisfying. I agree they are.. but THIS particular topic IS capable of being understood. There WAS justice in Israel including even the children in their targeting, because even the children were guilty. God does not command the killing of the innocent.
This video cleared up an immense amount of questions i had always carried regarding the story of Lot and his daughters, AND the story of Abraham's discussion with God as well.
I really needed this information! I will use it as ground zero, as I continue to study The very essence of the questionings I have in this regard.
Alicia and Clay, I know you did the video over 3 years ago. However, if you are reading this now, you need to know that you truly affected me, and blessed me 3 minutes ago. I will be doing more investigation into both of your channels. Thank you for each of your decisions to serve the living God.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable to you GOD...
Thank you Alisa and Clay! I have a trauma background myself. I had a feeling Clay was going to say, "Trauma induced Sexual Aberrancy is nearly impossible to reverse." He is absolutely right. There are multiple studies on childhood trauma that support this. Its a terrible truth to comprehend. Thank you for speaking truth.
I hope you’re doing okay!!
I’m confused by this comment. Are you saying you should have been killed?
@@amandamcgovern5744 ?
I think we had a misunderstanding. I was trying to point out that God’s heart is always for children, no matter what. It’s okay if you disagree. We might be talking past each other. Not trying to be a bother, just thought you would like a thoughtful perspective.
@@samanthajeffers9339 what are you referring to here?
I would just like to point out that absolutely nothing is impossible with God. and that's a fact.
Of the many important points that Clay makes, the most important is how warped our view of sin has become over the past hundred or so years. It's beyond our comprehension that God would actually punish sin through violence. As such, it's easy to understand why those (like Peter Enns) who interpret the violence against the Canaanites as entirely a cultural misunderstanding of God's will by the Israelites at the time are also the same people who reject eternal damnation. Their presupposition is that God is not the sort of God who would do that. Even many evangelicals have unwittingly bought into this view of God, even if they don't draw the conclusions (yet) that Enns draws. You can certainly find this view in most megachurch pulpits.
It’s definitely a testament to how we take God’s mercy for granted in this day and age. He is truly long-suffering.
@@melindamercier6811 Long-suffering indeed. Very well said.
"Their presupposition is that God is not the sort of God who would do that." If God is an angry hateful god full of revenge ready to do genocides when he can´t control himself, and Jesus would therefore not reflect God in any way" then i do not follow that god even if he existed. But if Jesus is a reflection of what/who God is, and the genocides are ancient peoples interpretations of God, then I will continue to follow Jesus.
@@PjotrII God is Holy.
@@PjotrII Then you are following a "Jesus" of your own making. Besides, Clay and Alisa explained why this was not genocide.
Thank you, Alisa and Clay. I am mid 50's and was blessed to be raised in very sound theological Christian home, sunday school and Christian school. I always had these questions but was taught to honor, respect and fear God (not to ask too many questions, but always had a ton of them in my head) and was taught His Character qualities early on. So I knew a Holy God could not tolerate sin and He had to judge sin to balance out His Justice and Mercy. Thank you for clear, biblical, historical based answers that aids a serious follower of Christ along the paths of Wisdom and Understanding.
This is hands down my favorite episode of this podcast. So informative and interesting. Can't wait to read Clay's book.
Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
God says that He is good, I trust that He is good. His ways are not my ways, and I may never understand Him fully, but I trust that He is good and just always.
You sound like you have a serial killer boyfriend.
Amen! I pray for that kind of faith!
@@alexnunn1932 I have a God who laid His life down for me and suffered so that I could live in paradise with Him. He also happens to be the same God that holds all of creation in His hands and I’m like one human amongst the billions that have existed throughout history. I definitely trust Him more than myself
@@SincerelyHannah9 how do you know any of that?
Could the "uncertainty" be in that one theological view says "God ordered a genocide, but let´s call it something nicer" and another theological view says, "humans 3000 years back interpreted that God initiated a genocide". And you have followed the first theological view, but it seems a bit weird, as you realize that things may not actually be like that.
What a sad world we live in, so true that sin these days is taken so lightly and God who is holy and just has to pronounce judgment against it. God is indeed merciful for not annihilating us all for our wickedness. It's only through Jesus's sacrifice that God was appeased . Thanks so much, Alisa for your helpful podcast. God bless you 🙏💖
Amen. To us belong judgment but God is merciful!
@J. Lo There are no "good people". I myself am rotten to the bone. For a bad person to do good, that takes faith.
@J. Lo You did not listen or do your research before your comments. The text in question says nothing about the Israelites torturing babies. It was the Canaanites who were doing this to their own children--a reason God’s judgment fell on them
@@jonatandjurachkovitch460 religion tells you you are a bad person. As they say... “Christianity tells you your sick then offers the cure..”.. it’s nonsense and I encourage using your brain to think about it for.. 5 milliseconds.
You are on here endorsing child and baby genocide. Talking about how you need Christianity (the faith that forces you to support this genocide) in order to be a better person.
Step outside yourself for a second. Get a shred of self-awareness. And PLEASE realize how absurd that is.
@@amandamcgovern5744 I'm endorsing God's righteous judgement. Just as when He judged Sodom and Gomorra, he destroyed a nation whose cultural unrighteousness had gotten to that extreme point (they were sacrificing their children. If that custom had continued a few more generations, even more children would have been killed)
I have thought about the sickness and the cure a lot, and my conclusion is that the sickness is real, and has extreme consequences. Have you kept the ten commandments?
I really enjoyed Clay's biblical insight! Thank you so much for standing on and promoting God's truth!
I thank God for you and your life and all the turmoil you have gone throught in your life. God took you through it for a reason and also blessed you with lots of talents so that you are in this position to tell us your story and how God has gotten you through it and blessed you the other side. May Our Father continue to bless you and your family continually.
I love that concept - if I don't understand or agree with God's word, I need to check into what's wrong with ME, not wonder about God's goodness
AMEN! This truth became so apparent to me when I was reading/studying the Levitical laws. There were laws that offended me. But I had to realize that because of my sin and skewed understanding I can’t fully comprehend God’s holiness.
If I wonder if genocide is wrong, then I turn to myself and wonder what is wrong with me, for questioning the pure goal of a genocide.
watch the whole video he deals with your argument
I got so much from this discussion, particularly the subject about killing the children. Taking us through scenarios of what happens when children are adopted paints a realistic picture. It allowed me to expand my thinking beyond emotions which were naïve. It gives me a more rounded view based upon the Scriptures. Thank you!
I have long shared Clay Jones' video on we do not know what sin is on this topic, so I am delighted to see him on this program. Jones explains well the perspective we should have. God always knows what he's doing and he never does anything that is not wise or just.
thank you for tackling the difficult issues. This is the stuff I want to understand most! Your work is so appreciated
This was sooooo good. WOW. Loved how this was explained. So confirming and makes so much sense. I could not stop "yes-ing" during this show. ❤❤
This was very helpful. Thank you for tackling this difficult concept.
Incredible show thanks Alisa and Clay! I am gonna use both of your resources to help someone 'searching' right now but this very topic is the major hangup.Thanks again.
Might be the best treatment of this topic I’ve ever heard.
I was reading an eyewitness account of the holocaust the same time my devotions had me in Numbers. It was so hard not to compare the two. I understood the Cannanites practiced idolatry but didn’t understand the depth of their other sins. Thank you for helping me to distinguish between the two
A friend just recommended this video yesterday as we were discussing this very topic. I'm so glad she did! Clay and Alisa, you both have brought light to a very difficult subject and helped me to understand a bit more fully on why God chose to punish the Canaanites with death. Thank you and looking forward to more teaching so we may be prepared to give an answer to the HOPE that lies within us. Blessings!!
So sad we really do still get people defending genocide, making all sorts of excuses, but no explanations. Sadly history has had too many apologists, not enough humanists.
Hey Alisa,
I want to thank you for your book. I’ve been reading through it these past couple months, and it has been such a blessing. I encountered Progressive Christianity last year while working, and it challenged my faith like never before. Your book has really helped me in my Christian walk, and I thank you for the hard work you put into it. May our Lord Jesus bless you and your family in these coming years.
Yes it's a good book. I just read it this week and thought it was really good.
A God who wanted the Israelites to ethnically cleanse the entire Canaanite people sounds more like Adolph Hitler to me. To me its a story that reminds us of how dangerous the human animal can be, and how we can use any excuse within our disposal to unleash appalling acts of horror on people, all because they belong to a different ethnic group, culture or religion. Its a story about tribal hate, and nothing to do with the universal God of abiding love and mercy towards all humans, animals and our planet.
Alissa, thanks for the interview. I'm a conservative Christian, and I think your conversation partner made good points. However, I think the biggest discomfort I have with these texts is NOT that infants and children were killed, but that the ISRAELITES THEMSELVES had to do the killing. it's just very difficult for me to imagine being an Israelite soldier in that position. This is why I have no difficulty with the Flood (done by God), but more unease with this passage. Not that it's causing any fundamental slide away from the faith for me, since I've struggled with this for decades. But if you perhaps have time to speak to this, that'd be great!
How do you feel if you are going to fulfill a very clear commandment from God?
@@etiennebisset5642 Let me affirm for the record that God has every right to administer justice by the hands of the Israelites. I'm just being honest and saying that I'm glad I've never been asked to do that myself.
Al, everyone who is employed owes their employment to the employer, and must perform according to the rules of that employer, not their own rules otherwise they will be fired from that organization; and that is the right of every employer.
Do you remember when God used Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians to chastise Israel? Do you remember when God used the Assyrians to chastise Israel? Everyone created by God, and that does include everyone, owes their very existence to God and He has the absolute right to make sure that they live according to His rules.
As far as the children involved are concerned two things should impact our understanding here.
The first is the difficulty Moses and the Israelites had leaving Egypt with a mixed multitude (people including themselves in the exodus for totally opposite reasons because they had totally opposite worldviews).
The second is the widely held mindset held here in the USA that, even despite the evidence, there is only a blob of tissue in the womb not a baby. So, how are we not like the Canaanites?
@@rocketscientisttoo I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Just saying that I'm glad I haven't been asked to carry out that duty. Aren't you?
Great discussion overall. I did find it strange how Dr. Jones had so much insight into why the Canaanite children needed to be included in God’s judgment on Canaan, and then turned around and said that they deserved eternal glorification because of an age of “innocence.” I agree that they could very well have been saved, but not because of “innocence.” Simply put, our second birth is a work of the spirit, who like the wind, “blows wherever it pleases.” We don’t know what happened to those children, but we do know that God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful.
Apologies, Clay Jones refers to exactly my comment at around the 40th minute …
This was really good. I love that he preached the Gospel towards the end. I always listen to the Gospel presentation as if it was my first time. Such a great reminder.
This is it in a nutshell... those who are offended at God for being God, and bringing judgment upon sin, are not worthy to be called by His name for one very simple reason; they hold the sanctity of man above the holiness of God. That, my friends, is backwards. He is God, not you.
@Alisa Childers 😂😂. I know this isnt Alisa Childers.
Listening to this breaks my heart...because I shared it with my son and he says he disagrees with your premise and its acceptance of its necessity, making it a list of ancient practices we would either find abhorrent or fine, depending on where we are on the earth....he is so lost. Please pray for him. Culture and Intellect are his gods.
I think he is using his mind. What is wrong with questioning or trying to find out why things are troublesome. It is a normal process of having a mind that allows you perceive, analyse and question. If I had a son like that I would encourage him to read, listen, research those things he questions and let truth lead him where it may. Good luck.
@J. Lo some people say that that place was hyperbole
Laurel Webster, I will pray for your son. My son would probably say the same thing and I haven't had a chance to share this with him. He was raised in a loving, Christian home, Sunday School and Youth Group but his present World view does not show it. 🥺😰 it is definitely heartbreaking! 💔
Mildred Martinez, I myself love to study, dig, research and learn and I question stuff all the time, from news, to politics, to my pastor's sermons, to internet information. I would strongly encourage someone to do that. Sadly, my own son and many of his generation do not want to study, research or engage in friendly, intellectual discusson. They seem to want to argue or press their view, without hearing anyone that disagrees with them. I would love to sit down with my own dear son and be able to have a meaningful conversation and bounce ideas off each other. I keep hoping and praying for that anyway. And with this particular information, I feel hopeful that maybe we finally can. 🙌🙏
Perhaps your son is naive to how grave sin really is. Coming from a broken home and having experienced many upsetting things in my upbringing, I often think some children who are sheltered (with the best intentions of their parents) have a poor understanding of how devoid of any good and depraved some people can be, so they find God’s judgement and laws to be ‘too harsh’, not realising what those laws and judgements truly restrain. But, it may just be he has to go through a time of having his eyes opened to these things, before he can return to you and appreciate your position.
This brought tears to my eyes. So much truth in this discussion.
GOD REVEALED something to me from this great conversation. GOD BLESS you both. It all made so much sense to a trye BORN AGAIN believer. 🙏📖
I was adopted and sexualy abused as a child by two different women. I didn't come to know some biblical truth until the age of 21. Then I was a Jehovah's Witness until January of this year. I have been brought to the Lord. Please listen to me when I Clay states that you become who your parents or abusers are. I too became sexualy active with children my own age, due hopefully to being abused by these women, I knew no boundaries, I was and am to this day a broken vessel. I thank God that I have been rescued. I thank Jesus Christ so much!! Because some days I too feel as though I could be a Canaanite. When Satan (Molech) breaks people down, we lose our moral compass. I understand today, why Yahweh had those men, women and Children killed. And for this I'm grateful. I too have died to myself. If it were not for the love of Christ, I too would be deserving of death. And this is okay, I get it. It is not my place to argue with our Creator. It is ever so important to know the facts, so as to be able to defend the facts. As an abused and broken person who has also perpetrated this abuse onto others as a child and teenager due to the abuse I experienced, believe what you hear. It must be so easy having grown up in a model family so to speak. But, when you have grown up with nothing but abuse and disfunction, it takes years and years and years of Christian teaching to get any normal semblance of being whole again. I cannot thank you Jesus Christ and my heavenly Father enough for seeing what good there was left in me and redeeming me for I was as good as dead and wicked to the core. This damage still manifests itself today friends in having impure and wicked thoughts which thankfully do not trouble me nor impact anyone else. I really hope that this helps Christians who have grown up in normal homes understand how and why our loving father had no choice destroying these people and their children. At least the children would have been saved and are now living in heaven until we receive our new earth and live forever with the Lord of lords and kind of all king's, come Lord Jesus come. Amen. And thank you having mercy on a sinner like me xxx
@Gabriel76
Reading your comment reminded me of Psalm 111: _The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise_
Such a helpful, practical discussion of a very difficult topic in Scripture. I truly hadn't considered many of the points you two made. Thank you!
Both Paul and Jude reference 1 Enoch in their respective epistles and held the book in very high esteem. I strongly recommend reading it to get a fuller view of the origin story of the giant clans (Nephilim) that arose due to the transgressions of the Watchers (angels) in Genesis 6. When you understand just how irredeemably evil these beings were, it is completely understandable why God would tell Joshua to devout them to destruction (annihilate them all).
This woman. One of the best shows on utube as good at the long form interview as Dr Sean McDowell, Megyn Kelly, or anybody. Great guests. I learn so much here. So encouraging. God bless her, what a gift to find this show.
Ethnic cleansing is fine if "god" gives the order ? Please, just listen to yourselves. 37:20- "It is not always wrong to kill the innocent." This is sick.
38:41 clearly explains his context. Cherry picking from the video isn’t helpful to anyone.
@@rainbowgames1 1) In the example of the mother, it could be a necessity to choose, if one life will end and the other go on, or even both could die. 2) In the Hiroshima example, it is not a necessity to bomb, it is an act. There was also no guarantee that the bomb ended the war and saved lives.... it could have created a domino effect where other nations would have come to defend Japan against the bigger evil - who dropped the worst bomb in human history. 3) In the case of God, there was no necessity to kill the people, even if SOME of them had sinned.
In the examples and bible places given, God is claimed to have said that the Israelites should not do the sins that are done in Egypt, nor should they do as the Canaanites. * What does this mean? The Egyptians (some of them) were as big sinners as the Canaanites, but God decided to kill just one group of people. Fair? Just? Then if you think further... does anyone seriously think that EVERY HUMAN being in that town or group of people were as sinful? Children, and the victims of rape, child molestation, abuse were also killed, like if they were the bad guys????? seriously?????
Pjotrill - you went over your head on the Hiroshima comparison. two bombs dropped. Each with a death toll of roughly 250,000 after 10 years. Option B if no bombs dropped was mainland invasion. Every single Japanese town prepare to fight to the death. They were trained to even use farming equipment. Estimated death toll 10 million over many years. but to the bigger point if you really want truth and you pray to the creator to show you who He really is, He will. And yes He is Jesus and yes Jesus did die for the sins of all mankind and yes Jesus is God and yes He rose from the grave and yes He is the only way. Unless you open your heart to that truth you will continue to use your creative mind to distort reality as you have done here
Sure. See whatever you want to see. Good job..
And sick is what these people were doing.
@@1doceth Your argument isn´t an argument against what I said "Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) was not a NECESSITY! Do you agree? It was a choice - that was what I claimed. Secondly I claimed that there was no guarantee in that moment of decision to drop the bomb(s) that it would bring peace. In your OWN claim you say that the Japanese towns were ready to fight until death.... they did not do that, they stopped after the bombing.
You claim an ESTIMATED death toll for an invasion... again, an invasion is an act, not a necessity. Just as unscientific, I could say that if the US made an invasion to two towns showing their force, killed only 5000 Japanese they COULD HAVE surrendered, spearing the lives of 245.000 people. WE DO NOT KNOW... maybe threatening to use the atomic bomb, unless Japan would have made a peace deal would have accomplished that... there are thousands of choices to act, and the decision to drop atom bombs on a country was one of them. NOT A NECESSITY!
I don´t distort reality - Jesus said HE is the truth, so the truth is what I stand for. Any time someone distorts the truth, I will point that out. Follow the truth and you stand with Jesus.
We also need to remember that at one point the canaanites knew God and worshipped Him. Just like Israel, they walked away from the truth and judgment came 400 years later. I think that’s also an important point to make.
Thank you so much for this! It brought so much clarity
Wow I did not know the depth of this about the Canaanites. THANK you for this video. This helps to understand so much. My daughter and I hear so many questions and comments about the Bible. I have started listening 🎧 to Frank Turek who also has answers to so many questions. THANK you both.
This guy is speaking the truth, even though it's a very hard to hear. I was adopted at birth, met my mother at age 16 and my father at age 27--I found out that we have SO much in common, it's crazy. I was always drawn to think about my biological family before I knew them. On the other hand, my adoptive parents took in three girls ages 5, 3, and 1, whose mother committed suicide--all 3 girls had different fathers who had left the mother, and there was substance abuse, sexual abuse, and also neglect. My mom who raised me always wanted a lot of children and just assumed that she'd raise these girls in the church and give them plenty of love and support and that would break the cycle of generational sin. Unfortunately, as adults, all three girls have been in and out of jail multiple times, involved in substance abuse and sexual promiscuity, etc. It's like they've been predisposed to follow in the sin of their past---and because their past is somewhat mysterious, it's like they yearn for it, even if they don't want to.
(added for clarity)
Yes, I agree that Jesus does not view people as completely hopeless, and nor does Jesus justify abortion, or genocide. I'm sorry that my story is so offensive. I maintain a relationship with my sisters, pray for them, and treat them with respect, and not as hopeless individuals who were offered the short hand of the stick.
@@melvinsorensen4587 The effects of sin continues throughout generations, but the life of Jesus shows even more how he came for those who've been hurt by the effects of sin. "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for ALL people- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who WANTS ALL PEOPLE to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL people. " 1 Timothy 2
@@melvinsorensen4587 No. I'm saying that one's personal sin is never personal, but effects others around you and generations after you.
@@melvinsorensen4587 So, is Jesus the cult leader that you are referring to? Because, we follow Jesus, not Clay Jones. Clay Jones doesn't even follow himself and doesn't have followers. He follows Jesus. Jesus shows everyone HIS way, it's a new way, a way of humility and love. He gives everyone the opportunity to choose life instead of death and welcomes everyone who acknowledges Him as Lord to live in this new way--this way without murder, but even further, without hate, and yes, without genocide. The old has gone and the new has come. Jesus opens his arms to those who've been born into sin, those whose parents have taught them to sin, those who've been victims all their life and even if they know better, they feel entrapped by sin...he welcomes them, makes them new, and adopts them into the family of the Kingdom of His life. This is the new covenant in his blood that Jesus himself talks about and refers back to prophecies from the Old Testament (which is also called the Old Covenant)
Jeremiah 31 ,“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
That scripture is also referenced in Hebrews 8, and 10
Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Luke 22:20 20 In the same way, after the supper he (Jesus) took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
@@melvinsorensen4587 That's fair for you to not believe Jesus is real. So what do you believe? Yes, you've already said you're anti-cults. I'm gathering that you're really into psychology. What do you believe about spirituality, and about God?
@@songsgardensbyjenniferlynn3242 excellent question, metaphysical/spiritual/god are not provable/tangible/corporeal and is completely subjective, therefore is evidential only to the beholder...
Whereas, the observable universal objective truth principles and laws of knowledge, logic, and reason that transcends history, cultures, and cannot be denied or refuted.
Thus one can reasonably accept it as truth.
Timely video. This is the subject we are discussing in my college course right now. God is good!
Amen
God is good, but is the 3000 year old text depicting his actions good? Or is it a human interpretation?
This was helpful, I really appreciate that you're not shying away from these hard questions. I'm still struggling with this but I can see clearer now.
Thank you! I just finished Joshua and this is so timely and so wisely answered. Bless you both for being bold and gracious Truth-tellers.
Excellent!!! I look forward to checking out more of Clay’s teachings. God bless🕊️🙏🕊️
Before I became a true Christian I heard a statement that stunned me. The individual said that God was the greatest murder that ever existed. He mention the killing of the Canaanites especially the children and babies., I almost agreed with him but I didn't have much bible knowledge., With God's grace a few years later I became a repentant born again Christian and was fortunate enough to attend a verse by verse teaching bible church. Besides the regular Sunday teachings we also had bible studies on Wednesday and Friday. In one of these studies we were in this section where the Canaanites were killed. The pastor pretty much explained, as you two did, and I came away with a better understanding of God's mercy and justice. To God be the glory.
Thank you for the video! Perfect timing, I was just reading This in the Bible last week and was asking God for clarity on it and was pleasantly surprised right now by the video and to make things better Clay Jones is the one being interviewed. I really love his work!
Just reflect for a few seconds... if you happened to be born as a Canaanite, yes you saw some bad people, but you also knew good neigbours and family, you got some children and worked for them to get food, and tried to teach them something, and then God decided that he will send a group of people to totally destroy everything, and kill everyone, including your children. Can you explain to me what CLARITY and PLEASANT SURPRISE you have found in that? As for me it is clear that it is quite evil. If I acted as God was described to do, would you say my actions were good?
@@PjotrII watch the whole video he deals with this objection
@@nathanaelh4750 One thing is if deals with the issue, another thing if the arguments are good enough to be taken seriously, or if they are like "hey we need to find a spin how to get out of this". There are many unsolved problems with the claims made. If I was in court and had those two as my lawyers, I would be afraid I am loosing the case. As an example the reference to flight 93 is very weak, as flight 93 was destined for a suicide mission = all people onboard would be killed ANYWAY, so taking down that plane was 1) not for the purpose to kill them all 2) the pilots lives could save more lives on the ground. When God orders to kill (against his own commandment ?????) it is not with the purpose to save lives, it is a brutal genocide, where the victims of rape (they tried to describe) were also chosen to die, as if they were the perpetrators.
@@nathanaelh4750 I asked you a question and you ran for the hills for some reason. Nathanael, why was it ok to slaughter the innocent babies and young children?
@@nathanaelh4750 let me ask you a hypothetical: is there ANYTHING the Bible could say that would make you think critically? In the video, the apologists suggest that if a reader doesn't understand something in the text it is ALWAYS the readers problem (epitome of cult thinking I might add). What if the Bible said explicitly "raping children is holy" and then gave instructions on how to do it.? Would that passage just be something to which you said "I don't understand yet but that is my problem and I'm sure God had a good reason."? Or would that cause you to question whether or not the text was actually from a god. This is an important question to consider. IS THERE ANYTHING THE BIBLE COULD SAY THAT WOULD MAKE YOU RECONSIDER ITS DIVINITY?
Brilliant, thank you Clay and Alisa, it brings such clarity in a very simple way to understand :) God bless u as u continue to point people to Jesus
WOW, Clay Jones is awesome! Much appreciated!
Thank you so much for this biblical and truth filled explanation. I have wrestled myself as I read through scripture with why God took the lives of a whole nation and why He took the children. But this explains so much. Thank you 💕
Take the humble approach.❤️God put Job in his place for thinking he knew better. Thank you Alisa and Clay!
So kuch to think about here! I happened to read this very passage this morning, then found this a few hours later. Really good info, and helped a lot to think through some difficult issues! Thank you!
Christians of RUclips who don’t think this video was sick:
Is there ANYTHING the Bible could say that would make you question it’s divinity? Anything at all?
The fact so many 'pastors' do not teach why God sent His people to judge Canaan is an indictment of those 'pastors'. The fact is, they don't know. They either haven't read the scriptures dealing with it or they haven't understood them. The same problem so many of them have with Genesis first eleven chapters relating to Creation etc..
Ok, you are not going to like what I am going to write. I am a going to be blunt. I am going light you both up.
I was a marine who saw combat. After the war, I took a decade to process, to evaluate my life and my decisions. One war experience ties with this topic of this video and changed the direction of my life. A fleeing group of people were killed in combat.
In the Marines, we are taught the laws of war that are founded in basic morality. We are not allowed to target non-combatants. This is a war crime. As a marine we are duty bound to reject all orders and authorities that advocate for war crimes. I reject god for ordering the command to complete a war crime of the darkest most evil sort.
So here we are with two people on RUclips advocating war crimes. They sit in air conditioned rooms in front of cameras and defend, on an individual close combat level, the hunting and killing of infants. With glasses of ice water at their side, they defend the hunting of children through the desert after these children witnessed the killing of their families.
I learned one thing on the desert of Kuwait, Islam is a terrible religion and then I discovered to my surprise that Christianity is just as bad. This video is an example of that.
I can’t express enough the disgust I have with this video and with Christianity.
@@AWalkOnDirt its disgraceful watching these creeps defending an atrocity..u right...u havent burdened urself with this disturbing stuff..
Thank you, this cleared up so much for me about the reason God would call for the deaths of children. I have friends who have either adopted or fostered and the children wanted their biological parents just as you said.
What a sick notion, that this can somehow justify mass slaughter of children (they didn’t even adress infants)
This was a great podcast. Very insightful and informative. I have been deeply contemplating this podcast for a couple days and now have a legitimate concern. Particularly about the children. As I was thinking about how we've come to this conclusion that God ordered the killing of innocent children for the good of Israel's sake, and that in doing so God was merciful to them in ultimately saving them, how can I present this to someone without them turning around and saying to me, "Then why are you against abortion? Wouldn't this logic justify abortion?"
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks.
Christian, I'm thinking through your concern in context of the information shared in this video and I have a couple clarifying questions...
1. Who would Israel be (God ordered the killing of children for Israel's sake) with regard to the abortion situation?
2. Do you think it makes a difference whether it is God ordering the killing vs a man or woman who doesn't want it? If so, what is the difference?
3. With the abortion scenario, if God isn't the one ordering it, then who is the one being merciful to the children being killed?
These are not scarcastic questions, I'd really like to know your thoughts. Blessings to you!
@@s21854 great questions! They help me as I was also thinking about abortion. Blessings!
Sometimes evil gets so bad it has to be stopped. Some people blame God for not doing enough to stop evil then when He does they get angry about that.
What an edifying conversation and fantastic perspective on so many angles! Know what else is fantastic? That we can KNOW where we go when we die...
Are you going to heaven?
Most people would say that they’ve been good enough to get into heaven. Would you pass the test? Let’s take a quick look!
1. How many lies have you told in your whole life?
2. Have you ever stolen anything no matter how little the value?
3. Have you ever use the Lords name in vain (like OMG)?
These are three of the 10 Commandments and if you answered yes to these questions that would make YOU like the rest of US. Judged by God’s standards, would you be innocent or guilty? Heaven or hell? The 10 Commandments are God’s moral law and we’ve all broken them. The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) which means we have all earned death (hell). But because of God’s love he has provided a way to heaven (1 Timothy 2:4). He sent his son Jesus Christ to pay the price for us. Jesus lived a sinless life, died on the cross for our sins (1 John 2:2) and rose bodily from the grave three days later to give us life. Jesus took the punishment we deserve on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). If we believe and put our trust in Him we too can have eternal life in heaven (Acts 16:31). Repent (which means turn from your sins and not live the life of a hypocrite) and trust Jesus today!
I always wonder about this yet figured God had a good reason for it. Now i have a complete understanding🙏
Which rationalization was it that made you feel slaughtering innocent children was ok? I’m genuinely very curious.
I don't get if. If you don't actually think these justifications can withstand scrutiny (which you don't, otherwise you would have eagerly listed one), why are you still ok with it? That's what is baffling to me. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm relieved you understand that these rationalizations don't make sense, but still... were you just wanting an explanation soo soo bad that you were willing to accept anything? Imagine your country announced that it was bombing its enemy and, the children were going to be parentless so, they were going to send in troops to each house to stab the kids and babies in the heart. Sound just fine with you?
@@amandamcgovern5744 This is to me the really scary part - that Christians who follow Jesus, the truth, who said we should not HIT BACK, we should LOVE and care for others, forgive, not 7 but 77*7* times, can, because of ONE untrue claim, come to the conclusion that God wanted a genocide, defend it and seek untrue twisted explanations to defend it. If a Christian cannot see that there is something really dizzy behind these excuses, then I wonder if that person walks in the truth and light, or if they are like a blind person who cannot lead another blind. What else could they be mislead about?
@@PjotrII after watching this video I immediately went to the comment section expecting to see push back from Christians. How naive. What I saw instead made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Blind acceptance. Incredible. Don’t they understand that the excuses in this video can and have been used to justify every genocide in history? Terrifying.
@@amandamcgovern5744 I expected mostly the comments we can read... " oohh , now I understand it"... "oooh, now it is ok"... the reason is that there is more fundamentalism in the US, than what we have in my country. I also became really happy to see your text, because it shows someone is thinking, and dear to speak truth, and question claims. Which again are not things that are highly regarded in fundamentalist circles. As I said, it scares me (not that we have different opinions inside Christianity) but that ONE FALSE CLAIM can lead otherwise honest people totally astray, and be blinded, even defend what is evil. And as you say, ANY genocide could be justified by saying - well they sinned. A nuclear attack on North Korea or Iran or anybody, Mexico (who will not pay for the wall) could be justified by "well they sinned" - and therefore this genocide is OK. It is VERY similar to the other big threath in the US, Qanon believers. Anything Q says is true, and if you would show proof of the opposite "you are wrong and Q is right"? Why - they have decided it is so. You can´t use reason and argue with that type of thinking. Christians should be educated, and they should embrace science, then we can debate and discuss different views in a serious environment. Everything good to you Amanda! At least I am confident that you won´t start the next genocide in the name of God.
Very informative. Great episode. Thanks for all the both of you do.
Thank you for yet another great interview and content. Interesting, informative, intelligent and inspiring. 🤩🙏🏻📖🕊️
You are doing great work Alisa. I’ve been so confused by progressive Christians but you and your guests help me so much!
Thank you for this! The pastor at the church I currently attend said that God was using
Hyperbolic War Rhetoric and didn’t mean that ALL canaanites needed to be killed. This didn’t sit well with me, as the tone was similar to… “Did God really say…?” This helped to clarify!
The comment about it not always being morally wrong to kill the innocent seems hard to digest. Especially as I’ve just finished Scott Klusendorf’s book The Case for Life, which bases it’s argument against abortion as it being morally wrong to take the life of an innocent human being. I’m curious to know how CJ would reconcile these two topics that stand on similar ground. Thanks!
Thank you! Yes! I love how completely you explained all this. I'm just beginning to read your book on Evil. I particularly appreciate that you covered that the children likely went to heaven. When we look at the age God separated the children of Isreal who lived to see the Promised Land and who died in the Wilderness, it gives us clues to age of accountability. In this light, God IS merciful in taking out the children of Canaan. This seems consistent with His character, too. He is good and He is just. His ways are higher than ours.
When I was very young, between 3-7 my family read the Bible and talked to me about the Bible and stories from it. My first real and only church experience was at 7. My grandparents took me to Catholic church. During this service when the "father" began reading from the book of Revelation my eyes literally closed. The More I tried to force my eyes open to read revelation I got a worse and worse headache. After this I went home and prayed. God told me to read the entire book before I read Revelation. So I began.
Over the next 17 years I read and studied the Bible in its entirety, but eventually focused on the new testament, specifically Matthew Mark Luke and John.....during this time between 7 and 24 years old many times I tried to read revelation, even just a few sentences. And every time I tried to read it my eyes would physically close and I would get a headache.
However, I did read the first few verses of revelation MANY times over that period as I started the book of Revelation a thousand times, but I couldn't get past the first 4 or 5 verses when I tried.
Sometime in the summer of 2000, when I was 24, I began trying to read the book of revelation and this time God let me. No more headaches or eyes closing.
It was then very shortly into reading it something stuck out,
But I didn't know exactly what,
It was a feeling in my gut,
so I asked God what am I missing..
He said "Listen closer."
After reading the beginnning of revelation numerous times I finally realized I recognized a phrase,
Rev...1:3.
"for the time is near".
Until this point I even though I had read it numerous times before, I was so focused on reading more before my eyes would close and a headache would start I didn't hear it closely until this point.
I immediately began searching where else I heard that phrase. Soon I found it;
In Luke chapter 21, verses 7-8:
This is where Jesus Christ specifically tells us to not follow the many who come in his name claiming 'I am He' and "the time is near"-
Jesus says do not follow those who use that exact phrase.
I eventually googled the phrase and found that the author of revelation uses that phrase twice.
I asked God if what He was showing me is proof that he warned US about Revelation and that it is a false prophecy- He said "what does My Word The Bible say?"
Listen, the reason how I know this doesnt matter because it doesn't change what Jesus says;
Jesus says do not follow the many who come in His name claiming 'the time is near' - the author of Revelation then uses that EXACT phrase TWICE, once in the first chapter and again in the last chapter: effectively sealing the entire prophecy called Revelation with a phrase JESUS CHRIST tells us not to follow anyone who uses it.
Since 2000 I have been quietly talking to people and showing them this. Whomever will listen- which hasn't been many. In August of this past year(2020) I asked God what else am I supposed to do. He said make a video and tell everyone.
So, I did.
ruclips.net/video/SN5GjLnW2SY/видео.html
If you have questions, ask away.
your brother,
Adam
A
Hello my friend the verse says "I am He AND the time is near". So people claiming to be God and predicting the apocalypse. As an ex New Ager I can tell you that in my old community people regularly said I Am Christ consciousness etc and they said the time is near. They called it the great awakening. The Apostle John never claimed to be God my friend. I think if you were willing to look at the Greek the words are most likely different but they're same in English because our language is way more simple than Greek. John is not the anti-Christ. I also saw what you said about how you couldn't read revelation with out getting a headache and getting drowsy. The sounds like demonic oppression to me and I actually felt a bit drowsy and spaced out watching your video which is a big red flag and leads me to think that there is a demonic spirit behind your video. Please do some prayer and fasting and pray for deliverance.
If people read the Bible in its ANE context (the way it’s supposed to be read), understanding the Conquest narrative is not difficult. The issue is much of the western Church has opted to divorce the supernatural components of the Bible (Genesis 6:1-4 for instance) to take a views more palpable to our modern minds (Augustine’s Sethite view of the same passage). We lose so much when we divorce the Bible from its intended context.
It's difficult today because most people's understanding of scientific principles have increased since the Biblical story was written.
Dr Michael Heiser great on this.
Years ago I struggled with these questions; why does the Lord destroy a nation or a people? Why would the Lord kill Uzza, when all he did was try to keep the ark of the covenant from falling. The book of Judges is excellent for revealing the cycles of disobedience and obedience. We're no different and must be warned repeatedly.
Romans 11:22 KJV - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Isaiah 63:10 ESV - But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
Romans 15:4 ESV - For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
It’s getting rid of the Nephilim. Im surprised many Christians don’t know this. I wish Alissa would have dr Michael Heiser as a guest
And Douglas Hamp !
Many are beginning to wake up and have their spiritual eyes opened
I'm taking the Unseen Realm class that Dr. Heiser has online. The first 15 week class was awesome and covers the first half of the book. I'm in the second 15 week session now. We just went through the Israelite conquest of Canaan. Definitely a problem with the Nephilim that needed to end.
lol !
Yep. Amazing most modern day professors and RUclips hosts missed this. It’s nit hard to understand.
For me also Capitol Punishment is saying in effect that we can't handle this person here so we give them to God who may perfect and redeem them on the other side in ways we cannot do here.
Can you have a guest on to discuss the concept of slavery as it is outlined in the OT? The differences between Hebrew and non slaves, etc. This is something a lot of us struggle with and I know unbelievers struggle with it too.
Look for Paul Copan. His book is “Is God a Moral Monster?” Four chapters on slavery/servitude.
Yes Jesus sanctioned the taking of slaves throughout the OT.
@@Sldghmmr338 No. the Penalty in the OT for stealing people (kidnapping) is DEATH.
I don´t struggle with the slave issue... it is simply wrong!
@J. Lo Comparing that the the rest of The Law, I disagree.
This was truly insightful. At the same time, I think this is another example of something that was intended to inform the future. Which is why we should be grateful.
Hey SWZ, you recommended this video to me
2 months ago... Watching now. God bless.
@@gi169 Np. God bless you, too!
@@JiraiyaSama86
You are right, awesome video so far... Thanks for the recommendation. 👍👍👍
A most instructive discussion and thanks for sharing ✝️
Why are these passages difficult for Christians? Don’t you trust God? He commanded it, and everything He does is good, so it must be just. Why does God need to explain? He doesn't. He told you He’s just so why ask any more questions? Why do you need an explanation? Just have faith. If people left the faith because of these difficult passages, then it’s cause they didn’t have enough faith in God’s character.
20:03 - "God knows who will repent." Oh, so it's okay for God to kill them then? Rejecting God in the long term means its ok to be killed? Why create them at all in the first place? That would eliminate their evil ways on earth, their practices, the people they kill or injure, and it eliminates the need for Israelites to kill people and children.
22:57 - "You. Don't. Know. That." Clay's response to those who think there must have been good people in Canaan. Which is an odd response if you had contrary evidence to point to. And you can't use the Bible to support the Bible. So Clay, do YOU know that there were not good people in Canaan? How do you KNOW? Or are you just trusting what the Bible says? Did he give any evidence for the Canaanites raping everyone, including children and animals? I didn't hear any. Clay even stated that not all Canaanites were that bad.
28:40 - "the Lord says straight out, 'if you dont kill them all, then they're going to corrupt you." But if the Israelites are attacking one of the "less bad" Canaanite cities outside of the promise land, and one of the Israelites sees an attractive woman amongst the captives, he's allowed to marry her (Deut 21:11). Is she more or less likely to corrupt an Israelite than children are? Israel took in 32,000 virgin girls from the Midianites in Numbers 31. Did they not worship false gods? Moses commands all the boys to be killed in this instance so they must've thought they were a threat or very wicked. Why not the 32,000 virgins?
~38:00 - the morality of shooting down Flight 93. We are humans who are not all powerful. We can only operate within our power. Sometimes we have to make those hard decisions. It's life. Now, is God bound by the same limitations that we are? In the Flight 93 situation, God could have many things that humans cannot. He could have softened the hearts of the hijackers. He could have made sure that plane couldn't fly that day. He could have killed the hijackers in their sleep the night before. He could have caused the plane to crash but miraculously save all the innocent people. SO WHY DIDN'T HE? Why did He make us have to decide if we should kill innocent people? Humans have to let some innocent people die because we are extremely limited. All we can do is hope that we are saving more people than we are hurting. What is God's excuse? If humans could have done any of those things, then we wouldn't have to considered shooting down a plane full of innocent people. What is God's excuse?
40:29 - children under a certain age go right to heaven and are saved. Please tell me how this doesn't support abortion if the child is from a bad, abusive, or unstable home? If you're against abortion, then stop being so focused on this life. Stop being so "here an now" focused.
Really enjoyed this. Very informative and helpful
The main reason that I'm not bothered by the Canaanite Conquest in the Bible is that it never actually happened.
😆🤣😂😅😂🤣😆
Perfect timing. I just finished Joshua and had trouble understanding all the mass killings. The Old Testament has always been so difficult for me to grasp.
Bcuz its crazy violent humans writing shit and saying God wrote it down to kill innocent peoples/children, and give 10-14yr old virgins to soldiers (Numbers), and marriage was a money wager between men...SICKning. “God” also tells how slaves should be owned, and MARK 10:18- Jesus says, “Why do you call me good, only God alone is good.” ✅mate. RUclips has killed the Bible and exposed all the bullshit abominable behavior by “God.” OF COURSE God DIDNT WRITE ANY OF THAT SHIT, pyschopaths in the Middle East did. Durh. Thats how u understand it bub / Roman James. In the year 150a.d. the Flavian Ceasars/Romans created Jesus to calm down the Jewish Messianic crazies that were breaking the Roman Laws with the Messiah silliness...200-300 dying and rising messiahs around Jesus’s time. Look up the documentary on RUclips- Flavians Romans created Jesus. Dare to watch it to see.
And after this video, are you now OK with mass killings?
@@350yardteeshotsmakesgolfez Thats a lot to take in, I don’t agree with gods wrath in the OT but apparently majority of the killings were done to Fulfill his promises to his people. Of course I don’t believe the selling of any human is acceptable under any circumstances today, but the culture was entirely different. Honestly I don’t have a good understanding of the OT so I can’t really debate on what’s right and wrong. I completely disagree with the ending of your comment, I do believe in the prophecies that Jesus Christ did fulfill!
@@PjotrII Thats tough to answer, there are many things I don’t agree with in the OT but that’s because I’m allowing my feelings to get in the way. This verse does help me see things a bit clearer
Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts
This is a message that needs to be preached in every pulpit. Excellent show.
"Wipe them all out and take their land by force"? How can this be divine punishment if the animals, the children, the babies, the women and others noncombatant are killed or taken captive as well? That is the textbook definition of genocide, ethnic cleansing and supremacy. That's utter nonsense and I remain unconvinced by your argument Clay. What's more likely is that this story was made up by people after the fact to help justify why the Israelite have settled in that piece of land in the Old Testament. This piece looks to me like intellectual gymnastic and post -rationalization.. Not convincing at al!!
There's something in the distorted heart of humanity that desires to usurp God's sovereign authority over what is truly just. We say that we want justice but really haven't considered the implications for our own lives. I would much prefer God's mercy in the Gospel rather than a Christ-less justice.
Including the Aprocrypha (the contested books which are included in the Roman Catholic Bible but disregarded from the Hebrew version), the total number of people that were killed by God in the Bible for which specific numbers are given is approximately 2,821,364. By comparison, Satan's kill count is 10 (The 7 sons & 3 daughters of Job), & even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it in what appears to be a part of a bet. Job 1:1-19 seems to indicate that both Satan & God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings.
Justification for these killings includes disobedience, burning of incense, complaining, homosexuality etc. God has many methods of killing; animal attacks, plagues, famines, falling walls, war, fire etc.
This, of course, greatly underestimates God's total death toll, since it only includes those killings for which specific numbers are given. No numbers are provided to include the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, or the many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc.
If we assign numbers by estimation to the un-numbered killings by God in the Bible, the approximate number is around 25-28 million people killed by God & only 60 by Satan.
Thank you so very much 💛
Clay Jones has monumental task of explaining intent for God's plan Judgement, redemption and salvation.
At what point do the transgressions of the individual corrupt the corporate body entirely. Incest, beastiality, human sacrifice, demon worship and the question becomes why did it go on so long. A loving God could be no longer loving and judged worthy to ignore absolute moral depravity.
Strong arguments here thanks and gratitude in Jesus's name no one else was found WORTHY....👆🤍👰♂️
@J. Lo they were abused and would become the abusers of other children- this is sin- this is the heart of man- ‘the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?’- God does-He gave them centuries to change (repent)- they were more interested in idol worship and depravity--God saved future generations of children being abused and other nations around Canaan who would want to copy their customs-and don’t forget it was Satan behind these ugly abuses becoz he hates mankind
Rachel Held Evans was not an arrogant person! Please have a guest on with a rebuttal.
Thank you! That was so interesting and foundational.
What an amazing video! Thank you!
There is a basis to this topic which is very evident in most, if not all, 1st world countries. It is the same issue that was brought up in the Book of Job, chapter 38, pride and ego. Who created everything, including us? Who has the right then, the absolute right, to govern that which was created? The Creator or us?
For example, everyone who is employed owes their employment to the employer, and must perform according to the rules of that employer, not their own rules otherwise they will be fired from that organization; and that is the right of every employer.
Everyone created by God, and that does include everyone, owes their very existence to God and He has the absolute right to make sure that they live according to His rules or they can be fired.
His timing for any correction or judgment, which is His choice, is His timing according to His purposes. His methods are His methods according to His purposes and according to His perfectly just justice. I defer to the Book of Job, chapter 38.
Alissa there is no theological excuses no justification for killing childrens. "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do." Jesus of Nazareth
@J. Lo nonsense!
So very well handled! I gained so many new insights from Clay. Alisha is on spot. Many are the slain of progressive Christianity!
The brave israelites ran through babies with swords, dashed them against walls and celebrated. Oh, don't adopt children is a message here. How can I accept this? I have to?>>>I have trouble believing God is good as it is due to my traumatic experience with Scupulosity, which is caused by mental illness, a topic the Church is silent on...Maybe I'm just too angry to think straight right now. As if anyone cared.
These are hard truths to accept but i believe scripture bears out their accuracy. I have often wondered if abortion hasn't done more to fill heaven than the churches. That is a sad indictment on our generation but a beautiful demonstration of the heart of mercy in our God.
Amazing! Thank you both.... I learned so much.
Thank You Lord. I was just reading this YESTERDAY, and was confused. I thought that was the promised land? I was struggling to move on from this passage. I looked up a few commentaries, but they didn't resolve my dis-ease with it. Thank you for helping me.
Another blast of truth! The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fool despise wisdom and instruction !
Thank you so much for this! This just makes so much sense.
It does?
This was a super helpful video in general! One part confused me and I’m hoping for clarity.
Is Clay Jones against adoption? I know this topic isn’t the point of the video, but how he discusses modern day adoption and a accompanying article of his, makes it seem like modern day adoption is bad in some way. Can someone clarify if you know what part of the video I’m referring to?
Thank you for this interview. I go to a progressive christian university, and this is the #1 problem that people have with God. Very helpful.
Looks like u need to progress into a bigger brain. Eat 🌮 🥩 🧀 and itll grow, and lift some weights.
what do you think the best rationalization was for actively murdering children? which one was it that put your mind at peace?
if you think it can withstand even slight scrutiny, you should have no problem explaining what it was.
The progressives seems to have a problem with this, so... do I get it right, you don´t?
Hey.. if you’re gonna justify the genocide of children.. don’t be a coward about it. What rationalization(s) makes this ok? Say it out loud.
What is the name of the university?
Glad I'm not religious. Disturbing.
Wow, this was amazing. Thank you so much 👌🙏🌹
Yeah genocides are amazing, we are in the same boat.
@@PjotrII Just listen to the same chapters of an audio bible over and over again and you'll get used to it 😉🤣
@@PjotrII I know what you need, my friend. Look up "Crucifixion of the warrior God“ in 2 volumes by Greg Boyd... There are also several excellent videos on RUclips, named after the books, of him explaining his conclusions after years reading the Church Fathers etc. He will help you have some clarity about what is going on and how to interpret it. Brilliant and humble guy. I know it will help. Take care 😃
Very interesting about the adopted children. Allie Beth Stuckey talked a little about this on an episode of Relatable, though not in as much detail.
This is God getting rid of bad seed, there are certain bands these days referring to boast of being of bad seed. Today is the gathering of the harvest.