High stakes disclaimer... All the jokers tags minus mega baffoon pack and top up I'd rank a bit lower with the joker nerfs in gold. Investment is an easy S or high A. Easily the best Round 1 skip that will set up you econ for the whole run and requires less set up that double money. Voucher has niche use since it provides a resource that you don't normally have access to. Probably low C for me as I actually have used it. Orbital I place in B. When it hits it is the bomb. When it doesnt...just don't click it. Edit: As please thunk allow spectral Ante 1 or at least make it a jumbo
I think voucher can be good with "double tag" deck. Obviously negative is much better but sometimes I still end up taking the 3-8 x voucher since getting those good ones can make the difference between a weak and a strong infinite run.
The thing about 2 free common jokers is, i think, that they won't have tags unlike jokers from the packs. I would even rate them slightly higher than Mega Buffon in that regard considering common joker often helps early game massively and it would be the time of the run when we skip for these 2.
To clarify I think this done intentionally since it would really suck to generate an enternal joker randomly that kills your run. They can have foil, neg, polychrome, and holo though.
I find the voucher tag is very good late game, being able to invest your good economy (if it's good, of course) in passive abilities is often more useful than seeing a couple packs and jokers, especially if your joker combination is already set up. It could use a buff for the early game but to be honest the majority of the tags falls off dramatically after the first antes, maybe it's good to have one that more specifically late game/endless focused
Definitely more interesting to see the shift from a value bias to a tempo bias between your video and BU- Getting a free negative joker is something id regard as close to infinite value, so its very hard to pass up if you want to get the theoretical "most" out of a tag skip. However, a fully free shop or a holo joker provides a lot of immediate, guaranteed tempo-consider that if there was a 4 dollar joker that just gave a flat 10 mult, that would be an autobuy in ante 1-2. The difference in playstyles is definitely interesting and fun to see play out when people work out their tier lists
The biggest problem with the free jokers in the shop is the perishable tag. Almost every time I have skipped for one, they get the perishable tag, which is a complete waste if I'm trying to get my run going. I won't take those skips anymore until that gets fixed cause it's just a waste of a round. I can understand if they are eternal tagged, but not perishable.
Edit- opinion is from before the patch, obviously. Shop coupon aka Everything in the next shop is free tag... when in ante 1, I can suddenly afford everything in the shop including both booster packs and then even the voucher for that ante... which is definitely a cash value of more than what I would earn in the small or big blind, and then I am also getting 2 blinds that ante so I have that income as well. That's free money, and it's also before I care about specific hands or scaling jokers. I can't see a real reason not to take it if I have no specific deck, no jokers, and no money. Maybe it isn't great mid to late game but I can also buy stuff when I'm in debt with a debit card or I spent all my money on other things or I used a wraith or the boss blind set me to zero dollars, which will happen on most runs. Suddenly this tag acts like I have enough money for everything in the shop. Can be enough to keep me alive or give me more chips or mult or tarot cards to make a basic flush build more viable. I love that tag, and it stacked really well with the rare and negative joker tags before the update. I admittedly am not on the update yet, but dang. You can actually get a negative joker for free on the original build if this tag comes up directly before or after the negative tag. The coupon was my friend. I will see how I feel about this tag once the update changes the economics of the shops so radically. You couldn't be bothered with a rare or negative tag early on ante 1, was a trap back then.
They should let you bank the boss rerolls intead if instantly using them. Would make a good quality of life change and would prevent the double tag problem.
Some of the tags in the lower tiers become a lot better when playing anaglyph. Sure you could see a Tarot pack in the shop but getting 3 or 4 of those on one skip gets you well on your way with deck manipulation. Other tags in the higher tier do not work well with double tag mainly as you are quickly going to max out joker slots
I think coupon is amazing to get on small blind/ante 1/red stake or higher. S tier in that circumstance. It’s a way to immediately shift to saving mode all the way to big blind on ante 2
Yessss, I was waiting for this! Do you also plan to revisit your joker tier list with all the changes in mind some time after you've played on new patch enough?
Definitely can relate to overvaluing the skip early on. I thought it was really good until I got to yellow and was couldn’t win. Randomly decided to just fight every blind and my runs instantly shifted. I think it’s great that the (usually) optimal way to play the game is actually to PLAY the game, and not skipping. Smart design choice imo
Were you planning at all in separating your pre-patch content into different playlists from your new updated stuff? Guides and tier lists specifically? Might help reduce potential confusion from new players/viewers looking for help.
@@ZainoTVLive as long as you do a reminder at the beginning that this tier list ist made for patch x.y.z and things might have changed in the meantime, I think you are good. In old videos that you missed doing that, perhaps update title ("(1.0.0)" at the end for example), first line of description or as a sticky comment.
I rarely skip anymore but the voucher tag is one of my favorites. If I have double tags I’m taking it. Just pure joy seeing a 4 pack of vouchers to pick from.
I think the joker tags becoming free jokers devalued the coupon tag a bit. Before I would always take it specially in gold stake since things become so expensive but now it feels a bit worse since the jokers are less random. You're guaranteed to get what you skipped for.
I'm trying to think of what you have left to do a tier list for. Maybe re-visit the joker tier list post update? Or you could do a Balatro content creator tier list. I'm sure that wouldn't cause any drama lol.
i agree with most picks. I would put charm in B with mega buffoon though not C because realistically i only skip at ante 1 or 2 and the mega arcana guarantees good value and help, contrary to the joker/enhanced tags that over 1/2 times will enhance/create a rental/temporary/eternal joker. For that reason I would also put rare and negative tag in C (although top C, not low C). I mostly think in gold stake context but i think its not that different in low stakes, except negative which can be really good in low stakes especially with the anaglyph deck
A tier, with checkered and abandoned. It's not as easy of a win for high stakes but the endless possibility lifts it up (for the way I curate tier lists)
I can not disagree more on the voucher tag. White stake tryong to go endless. I literally want to double tag and find as many vouchers as possible. It is THE most powerful tag for endless. Full stop. I dont ever skip except for voucher in endless. For 8 ante, yeah prolly not worth it.
The voucher is basically the only one that I skip for after ante 1, but only if I've got my jokers online for baron-mime or retriggered idol. Then again I hardly ever think skipping is worth it.
I think its a good List but i would put Negative into low S because negative is really rare and also free and i think its more valuable than a rare joker
I disagree heavily on Celestial Tag. To me, two Planets is better than a Negative Joker- there's so many dead Jokers that hitting a Planet of a hand I will ever play is worth more than a random Joker.
Very good and solid points throughout the entire video. Though there are a couple of things im not quite sure id agree on though it all depends on personal playstyle as well. While yes getting the coupon tag there is a risk that you might not get anything out of it, picking it up on earlier antes and even maybe mid ones is just a must have for me. More times than not it would have either a decent joker or a pack or anything basically and if the joker isnt good i can also sell it. I dunno, personally id put it in A tier as the risk/reward for it so far has always been fairly fair and good from my observation. Juggle is a weird one as well to be fair as its a bit like the boss skip one. It can be extremely useful if youre towards the end of your higher ante runs as a last resort depending on your deck but i honestly havent really found almost any situation in which id really need do pick it unless i know for a fact that the next boss blind would probably screw me over unless i get what i need. For me personally id definitely put it on the same tier as the boss skip one as its only useful in extremely niche scenarios given how it only works for the next blind youre going into. As you said, its not a bad tag, not at all even but its extremely niche in my opinion. Im also in the same boat for D6. Ive also been underusing it and i feel like there is potential for it to be C tier but i could just never get it to work. Then again i havent been using it that much so it could just be a "skill issue" Kinda surprised you were thinking of putting orbital B though considering how yea if it does land on the hand youre building for, it is a very good pick, though the last time ive seen it land on the hand im building for was probably when i first started playing the game. Again, its a bit on the same boat as other tags where there is no middle ground for it. Its either a very good choice to pick or an absolute waste and considering the odds it has almost always been a waste. Even getting it very early on, id still not see it being worth it as you still need to build econ and need jokers to get everything going and just skipping for a tag that could upgrade a specific hand a couple of times while not being sure if the jokers that will come out after would even be possible to work around with that hand type just keeps it on the D tier for me. But i can definitely see it also being C and maybe this could also be cut down to a "skill issue" moment from my end. All in all though very very solid list and i agree with everything else on it spot on
Appreciate the comment, I replied to one other on coupon and I think I've let a few bad rng roles lead me to ignoring it. All-in-all I agree with all your points
I skip for negative like 80% of the time. If I'm comfortably beating the current boss blind it's like 95%. An extra joker with no downside is so powerful. Worst case scenario I sell it for like $5, but the upside is huge. If it's a good joker early enough you just build around it
"extra joker with no downside"... You skip a shop + gold rewards from a round + potential scaling of jokers (if you have scaling jokers). Negative tag is a bait most of the time imo, it definitely has downsides.
@Aquaniqua All overrated things. Shops are good if you have a glut of money and are getting lucky. Some shops are useless, others are great. And buying stuff in the shop negates the money you got in the round usually. The chance of hitting in the shop is about the same as hitting on a negative joker, but the negative is a buff to your top end while the shop really isn't. Scaling jokers are a meme. If missing one round of scaling is a huge loss then you have bigger issues and the negative is probably more important.
@ZainoTVLive I dunno. I think I've ended up selling maybe 10% of my negative jokers. The amount of jokers that are good enough to be extra but not good enough for a slot is pretty large. Econ jokers, tarot jokers, utility jokers, chip jokers, etc etc. The list of jokers that are flat out bad or useless is pretty small. The math just changes when they're taking up limited slots. A Hallucination or Mail in Rebate feel kinda crummy in the shop but are great as a negative.
It would appear you are not graduating balatro university with honors.. I love how much diversity the gameplay has, top players can actually have completely different ideas and they’re valid
How is Cloud 9 not in S Tier. It literally can make as much money as you want. I don't understand why you have gold joker higher than it. Its only $4. Cloud 9 can LITERALLY be hundreds if you want it to be.
NEW TIER LIST! Where do you agree/disagree?
High stakes disclaimer...
All the jokers tags minus mega baffoon pack and top up I'd rank a bit lower with the joker nerfs in gold.
Investment is an easy S or high A. Easily the best Round 1 skip that will set up you econ for the whole run and requires less set up that double money.
Voucher has niche use since it provides a resource that you don't normally have access to. Probably low C for me as I actually have used it.
Orbital I place in B. When it hits it is the bomb. When it doesnt...just don't click it.
Edit: As please thunk allow spectral Ante 1 or at least make it a jumbo
Do a tier list on card modifiers (enhancements/editions/seals)
I think voucher can be good with "double tag" deck. Obviously negative is much better but sometimes I still end up taking the 3-8 x voucher since getting those good ones can make the difference between a weak and a strong infinite run.
Zaino: *Puts negative tag in A tier*
Me: "And everything was lovely once again. Wonderful."
WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT, a Michael Rosen reference in the wild. Rather nice (I think you know what I mean).
Nice pfp
The thing about 2 free common jokers is, i think, that they won't have tags unlike jokers from the packs. I would even rate them slightly higher than Mega Buffon in that regard considering common joker often helps early game massively and it would be the time of the run when we skip for these 2.
I think they can now have tags but I'll test!
They cannot. Riff raff and top up are free from it.
To clarify I think this done intentionally since it would really suck to generate an enternal joker randomly that kills your run. They can have foil, neg, polychrome, and holo though.
You take negative tag on painted deck and it almost feels like your deck has no downsides
I find the voucher tag is very good late game, being able to invest your good economy (if it's good, of course) in passive abilities is often more useful than seeing a couple packs and jokers, especially if your joker combination is already set up. It could use a buff for the early game but to be honest the majority of the tags falls off dramatically after the first antes, maybe it's good to have one that more specifically late game/endless focused
I can see both Voucher and D6 as the "I have a lot of money now give me something to spend it on" options.
Definitely more interesting to see the shift from a value bias to a tempo bias between your video and BU-
Getting a free negative joker is something id regard as close to infinite value, so its very hard to pass up if you want to get the theoretical "most" out of a tag skip.
However, a fully free shop or a holo joker provides a lot of immediate, guaranteed tempo-consider that if there was a 4 dollar joker that just gave a flat 10 mult, that would be an autobuy in ante 1-2.
The difference in playstyles is definitely interesting and fun to see play out when people work out their tier lists
The biggest problem with the free jokers in the shop is the perishable tag. Almost every time I have skipped for one, they get the perishable tag, which is a complete waste if I'm trying to get my run going. I won't take those skips anymore until that gets fixed cause it's just a waste of a round. I can understand if they are eternal tagged, but not perishable.
Rental is even worse
Better than perishable. Nothing feels worse then getting a brainstorm or blueprint and it's perishable. @@surfinggarchomp2820
@@surfinggarchomp2820Rental is manageable if you have your economy on lock. You can still get value sometimes
I think free shop tag is very valuable early game. It can save you a lot of money.
Edit- opinion is from before the patch, obviously.
Shop coupon aka Everything in the next shop is free tag... when in ante 1, I can suddenly afford everything in the shop including both booster packs and then even the voucher for that ante... which is definitely a cash value of more than what I would earn in the small or big blind, and then I am also getting 2 blinds that ante so I have that income as well.
That's free money, and it's also before I care about specific hands or scaling jokers. I can't see a real reason not to take it if I have no specific deck, no jokers, and no money. Maybe it isn't great mid to late game but I can also buy stuff when I'm in debt with a debit card or I spent all my money on other things or I used a wraith or the boss blind set me to zero dollars, which will happen on most runs. Suddenly this tag acts like I have enough money for everything in the shop.
Can be enough to keep me alive or give me more chips or mult or tarot cards to make a basic flush build more viable. I love that tag, and it stacked really well with the rare and negative joker tags before the update.
I admittedly am not on the update yet, but dang. You can actually get a negative joker for free on the original build if this tag comes up directly before or after the negative tag. The coupon was my friend. I will see how I feel about this tag once the update changes the economics of the shops so radically.
You couldn't be bothered with a rare or negative tag early on ante 1, was a trap back then.
I think this is a good point, I think I've been unlucky with coupon and it's swaying my opinion too heavily.
They should let you bank the boss rerolls intead if instantly using them. Would make a good quality of life change and would prevent the double tag problem.
I tend to agree here.
Another great video. Very helpful. Thank you.
Some of the tags in the lower tiers become a lot better when playing anaglyph. Sure you could see a Tarot pack in the shop but getting 3 or 4 of those on one skip gets you well on your way with deck manipulation. Other tags in the higher tier do not work well with double tag mainly as you are quickly going to max out joker slots
i started typing when the coupon voucher went into C then had to delete it when it got back up to B. early game its really useful
I think coupon is amazing to get on small blind/ante 1/red stake or higher. S tier in that circumstance. It’s a way to immediately shift to saving mode all the way to big blind on ante 2
I think you're right I under sold it
I definitely agree with the thoughts on Ethereal tag. While it certainly might not work out, if it does work out it can have a really strong payoff.
Yessss, I was waiting for this! Do you also plan to revisit your joker tier list with all the changes in mind some time after you've played on new patch enough?
I do, I'm planning on it very soon 👀
Definitely can relate to overvaluing the skip early on. I thought it was really good until I got to yellow and was couldn’t win. Randomly decided to just fight every blind and my runs instantly shifted.
I think it’s great that the (usually) optimal way to play the game is actually to PLAY the game, and not skipping. Smart design choice imo
Reminds me of Slay the Spire.
Events are more interesting but opting for more combat floors is usually the optimal way to go about it.
@@wesnohathas1993 yeah, one of the biggest lessons I learned in Slay the Spire was the value of taking Elite fights. Changed that game so much for me.
Free shop gotta be higher. Most of the time it will give you 2 free jokers on top of the boosters
Were you planning at all in separating your pre-patch content into different playlists from your new updated stuff? Guides and tier lists specifically? Might help reduce potential confusion from new players/viewers looking for help.
For some stuff, maybe. Probably not tier lists though
@@ZainoTVLive as long as you do a reminder at the beginning that this tier list ist made for patch x.y.z and things might have changed in the meantime, I think you are good. In old videos that you missed doing that, perhaps update title ("(1.0.0)" at the end for example), first line of description or as a sticky comment.
POST PATCH CONTENT HYPE
I rarely skip anymore but the voucher tag is one of my favorites. If I have double tags I’m taking it. Just pure joy seeing a 4 pack of vouchers to pick from.
I want to try that sometime!
It's also the best tag for endless mode :)
I think the joker tags becoming free jokers devalued the coupon tag a bit. Before I would always take it specially in gold stake since things become so expensive but now it feels a bit worse since the jokers are less random. You're guaranteed to get what you skipped for.
My thought process as well
I'm trying to think of what you have left to do a tier list for. Maybe re-visit the joker tier list post update? Or you could do a Balatro content creator tier list. I'm sure that wouldn't cause any drama lol.
i agree with most picks. I would put charm in B with mega buffoon though not C because realistically i only skip at ante 1 or 2 and the mega arcana guarantees good value and help, contrary to the joker/enhanced tags that over 1/2 times will enhance/create a rental/temporary/eternal joker. For that reason I would also put rare and negative tag in C (although top C, not low C). I mostly think in gold stake context but i think its not that different in low stakes, except negative which can be really good in low stakes especially with the anaglyph deck
and I would put coupon in S tier too. it's the only tag i always take in gold stake ante 1 when i see it, and it usually means I will win.
I think with the new gold/orange stakes it may not be as valuable but I need to do more testing. Again I put it too low regardless
Is the update not available on PS5? None of the joker tags are free for me and investment is still $15...
Pending approval from Sony
This video put a lot into perspective for me. I thought skipping was a good strategy too 😭😭
WIth the changes to tag skips, how do you feel about anaglyph deck now?
A tier, with checkered and abandoned. It's not as easy of a win for high stakes but the endless possibility lifts it up (for the way I curate tier lists)
Playing the blind is s tier
I can not disagree more on the voucher tag. White stake tryong to go endless. I literally want to double tag and find as many vouchers as possible. It is THE most powerful tag for endless. Full stop. I dont ever skip except for voucher in endless. For 8 ante, yeah prolly not worth it.
The voucher is basically the only one that I skip for after ante 1, but only if I've got my jokers online for baron-mime or retriggered idol.
Then again I hardly ever think skipping is worth it.
I think its a good List but i would put Negative into low S because negative is really rare and also free and i think its more valuable than a rare joker
that tag is f tier bcs it is mostly some trash common
It doesn't even do anything though 95% of the time 😅. The expected value is basically 0 imo
@@Benjilovescats well maybe im lucky or somthing
Rare joker being free means that I'll probably just reset runs until I get a good rare joker
coupon in B is crazy
I disagree heavily on Celestial Tag. To me, two Planets is better than a Negative Joker- there's so many dead Jokers that hitting a Planet of a hand I will ever play is worth more than a random Joker.
Well. I skip every run I can and that's probably why my win rate is .0001%. thanks for explaining the theory
what's the point of having an s tier if your not gonna put anything in there??
To motivate the skip tags to do better and strive for greatness
Very good and solid points throughout the entire video. Though there are a couple of things im not quite sure id agree on though it all depends on personal playstyle as well.
While yes getting the coupon tag there is a risk that you might not get anything out of it, picking it up on earlier antes and even maybe mid ones is just a must have for me. More times than not it would have either a decent joker or a pack or anything basically and if the joker isnt good i can also sell it. I dunno, personally id put it in A tier as the risk/reward for it so far has always been fairly fair and good from my observation.
Juggle is a weird one as well to be fair as its a bit like the boss skip one. It can be extremely useful if youre towards the end of your higher ante runs as a last resort depending on your deck but i honestly havent really found almost any situation in which id really need do pick it unless i know for a fact that the next boss blind would probably screw me over unless i get what i need. For me personally id definitely put it on the same tier as the boss skip one as its only useful in extremely niche scenarios given how it only works for the next blind youre going into. As you said, its not a bad tag, not at all even but its extremely niche in my opinion.
Im also in the same boat for D6. Ive also been underusing it and i feel like there is potential for it to be C tier but i could just never get it to work. Then again i havent been using it that much so it could just be a "skill issue"
Kinda surprised you were thinking of putting orbital B though considering how yea if it does land on the hand youre building for, it is a very good pick, though the last time ive seen it land on the hand im building for was probably when i first started playing the game. Again, its a bit on the same boat as other tags where there is no middle ground for it. Its either a very good choice to pick or an absolute waste and considering the odds it has almost always been a waste. Even getting it very early on, id still not see it being worth it as you still need to build econ and need jokers to get everything going and just skipping for a tag that could upgrade a specific hand a couple of times while not being sure if the jokers that will come out after would even be possible to work around with that hand type just keeps it on the D tier for me. But i can definitely see it also being C and maybe this could also be cut down to a "skill issue" moment from my end.
All in all though very very solid list and i agree with everything else on it spot on
Appreciate the comment, I replied to one other on coupon and I think I've let a few bad rng roles lead me to ignoring it.
All-in-all I agree with all your points
Voucher should be pretty high, free rerolls should be in the last tier, and 2 free COMMON jokers should be second to last or maybe last not A tier
I think it's good there are no S tier tags in your eyes because ideally we should be playing the game more than we are skipping the game, ha ha.
I agree its a good game design decision IMO
I skip for negative like 80% of the time. If I'm comfortably beating the current boss blind it's like 95%.
An extra joker with no downside is so powerful. Worst case scenario I sell it for like $5, but the upside is huge. If it's a good joker early enough you just build around it
Its super low success rate but I think people are sleeping a bit on it
"extra joker with no downside"... You skip a shop + gold rewards from a round + potential scaling of jokers (if you have scaling jokers). Negative tag is a bait most of the time imo, it definitely has downsides.
@Aquaniqua All overrated things. Shops are good if you have a glut of money and are getting lucky. Some shops are useless, others are great. And buying stuff in the shop negates the money you got in the round usually.
The chance of hitting in the shop is about the same as hitting on a negative joker, but the negative is a buff to your top end while the shop really isn't.
Scaling jokers are a meme. If missing one round of scaling is a huge loss then you have bigger issues and the negative is probably more important.
@ZainoTVLive I dunno. I think I've ended up selling maybe 10% of my negative jokers. The amount of jokers that are good enough to be extra but not good enough for a slot is pretty large. Econ jokers, tarot jokers, utility jokers, chip jokers, etc etc.
The list of jokers that are flat out bad or useless is pretty small. The math just changes when they're taking up limited slots. A Hallucination or Mail in Rebate feel kinda crummy in the shop but are great as a negative.
It would appear you are not graduating balatro university with honors.. I love how much diversity the gameplay has, top players can actually have completely different ideas and they’re valid
True but BU is a class above right now, imo. We will have to have more challenges
I see negative, i skip
As simple as that
How is Cloud 9 not in S Tier. It literally can make as much money as you want. I don't understand why you have gold joker higher than it. Its only $4. Cloud 9 can LITERALLY be hundreds if you want it to be.
No excuses, I vow to do better in the future. I swear I'm done with white stake seeded runs.
@@ZainoTVLive I mean thats good and all but could you stop asking chat to type something in chat by typing in chat asking chat to type something chat?