I'm a 787 Captain for a major U.S. carrier and recently had a trip with a friend in his Cessna 414 from L.A. to Calgary. On the way back we got some pretty good ice. I was shocked at how ineffective the boots were. Guys please be careful in these small planes, especially when flying over high terrain. You have limited options to get out of it when things don't go so well when your MEA is 12,000ft and the freezing level is 8,000ft. If you are lucky, you may be able to climb to get on top if you still have the performance. My personal opinion is that on these light twins, the anti-ice systems are designed to give you some time to get out of icing conditions and not for sustained flight into "Known Icing". Also, remember that severe icing by definition means that you are accumulating more ice than the aircraft is capable of removing. One man's severe may be another man's light. Our big jets are designed for all-weather conditions and even have automatic icing detection and protection on the 787. Stay safe and know the plane's limitations and your own!
Flight 3407 had loads of issues inside the cockpit... but one thing that could have made their job easier would have been effective anti icing. That night was awful and the ice was thick, those boots never would be able to catch up on that Q400.
The issue is that he activated them too early. There needs to be around 1/4 of an inch of ice on the leading edges before you activate the boots. Otherwise, the ice stretches around the boots but doesn’t break off which is what happens here. Very ineffective in this case.
@@benmcdonough4340 In my training, we were told to use them early and often. In 2008, NTSB published a safety alert recommending pilots to use the boots as soon as you encounter icing. Seems to be a heavily debated topic by the looks of it.
@@h3sh926 According to the PHAK, (7-40) Bridging was possible on earlier boots and older airframes but not likely on modern installations. So it depends on the aircraft ultimately.
They aren't. Bleed air systems are much better and are adjustable on the fly. But below a certain size, and in certain conditions, you have no other choice. The OP states in the description that this is a "known ice" certified Cessna, which is a higher standard (with the airframe certified for a certain level of ice build up, not sure exactly what). Clearly whatever small visual effect the boots have is considered significant enough in effect by the FAA to warrant special permission to fly where others would be prohibited.
@@automotivetv9861 3 inch thick is insane amounts of ice. You will be in serious trouble if you think you can fly with 3 inches of ice before using de-icing.
I used to fly Purolator packages and canceled checks in a Cessna 402 and a Piper Aztec in 1981/82. Both aircraft had inflatable boots, hot plates or alchohol on the windshield and hot props. I operated in the upper mid-west. In the winter, we always had icing conditions. It was just a matter of how much. Both Cessna and piper were low wing aircraft. I needed the ice to come off when I blew the boots because I was flying multiple stops on a schedule Monday through Friday. In other words, getting a deice in between legs wasnt going to happen. My employer at the time was experienced old school that had flown since the late 1930s. The man knew every trick in the book. He taught all his freight drivers to treat the boots with floor wax before entering icing conditions and in between every stop we had to use a hardwood stick to lightly tap on and clear away any residual ice. At intermediate stops we were taught to use a spray can of table top wax such as Lemon Pledge on the leading edges including the props. If my boots were expanding properly(sometimes they didnt) the ice would fly off the greasy Lemon Pledged surfaces and leave all the leading edges nearly clear. Pulling the props back would also help to get the ice to release. Dont screw up and pull them back too far. Also cycling the props would only work a few times then it was diminishing returns. Time to land if you werent hearing the ice hit the fuselage when you pulled the props back. Dont be lazy and just maybe you wont screw the pooch and auger in.
"Auger in." Now, I haven't heard that one in a long time. "Lawn darts" is what we used to call the Blackhawk helicopters back when they were still trying to figure out their "automatic" tail elevator 'problem.'
Your story is almost identical to mine. I used to fly Purolator packages in the region around their hubs at Indianapolis and Columbus, OH in 1981-82 in Aztecs and Twin Beeches. The Beech had alcohol props and windshield, but the better part was that the boots would extend out much farther than is typical on other planes, and so they were a lot more effective. On intermediate stops with the Aztec, I also had to get out and manually remove ice off all the leading edges. Typical boots on fairly modern planes are tricky to use and you have to be very careful about when you blow them. If I had lots and lots of money and wanted a plane, I wouldn't get one that didn't have hot wings.
And please, young pilots: de-icing systems are for emergency purposes. What happens when you're in a rush, tired, hassled, and the de-icing system has a mechanical malfunction? If you're at all worried about conditions, don't fly. If anyone laughs at you, don't worry, you'll be at their funeral soon enough.
Just curious. I know nothing about planes . Why would one’s confidence be low with a high stress level? It looks like it would be a safety device for the wing, no?
@@MrBehnke1987 not much ice was really removed. More ice means more weight (or drag depending on the shape of the ice). When ice builds up on the wings planes have to land at faster approach speeds because the ice changes the aerodynamics of the aircraft otherwise they stall!
These are actually de-icing boots which allow a build-up of ice before they are inflated by a cyclic timer to shed the built-up ice. In contrast, an anti-icing system uses either hot-air bled from the engines or electrical heaters to heat the leading-edge to prevent any ice build-up.
@@savagedabs8536 No, it's not obvious because if you read all of the comments for this video, there's a lot of confusion between anti-icing and de-icing. That's why I explained the difference. Thanks for your comment anyway😁
@@lalruatfela3394You're definitely not cool enough to be Captain Obvious. That's not how any of this works, you don't give yourself that title. Imagine not knowing this was satire? But I missed the point, right?😂😂😂
@@scottycatman The statement that icing needs to build up actually caused a stall and crash. Manufacturer states to activate as soon as icing occurs, the exact best practice varies by speed and conditions, but rather sooner than later. ruclips.net/video/YLrzz2VY6w8/видео.html
Looked to me the boots were used before a decent layer of ice had accumulated. If the ice is thin the boots blow to up without removal and when the boot is deflated the ice remains but now the boot is completely ineffective behind a layer of ice. I used to fly an Aztec E and got severely iced once, the only thing that saved me were the boots, heated props and good luck. The tailplane stalled twice on approach, closest Ive been to going in.
"usually on aircraft rated for unknown icing conditions" Not quite... Boots are used on many airplanes (including some jets) that are "known icing" certified. The plane in this video is a "known ice" equipped Cessna 210. Most heat based de-icing systems are on jets and use bleed air - not electrics - to heat the wings.
2 many responses hear from folks who were never in ice. When boots are inflated too soon you may experience "bridging". That is an initial thin layer of ice merely rises off and will end up collecting more ice on its own surface with the initial ice still adhering to the air frame. That is what is happening in this video. As one res-ponder said below you need to wait for ice to build up to certain thickness before popping the boots will be effective. Only experience in ice can teach as to when to activate the boots. Also, don't forget to use that goop that Good Year recommends to grease the boots up with (it makes a big difference). I've logged over three months of my life (meaning over 2000 hours) in IMC in the winter in New England, New York State and Pennsylvania in light aircraft. My total flight time is much more. Be careful out there. When you're alone in the sky, with nature, in a tin can that's icing up...WOW, I really can't convey the feelings that rush through. 3 biggest fears are fog, T-storms and ICE. The rest is cake walk.
That is logical; if the a/c is able to maintain height long enough for leading edge ice to build to a certain thickness such that it achieves rigidity, it is less able to flex with the boot and more likely to catch the breeze and break away. i recall reading the memoirs of a '30's test pilot who tested many devices, including prototype leading edge air bladders for exactly this purpose. He also tested wingtip automatic cutters for barrage balloon cables, tasked with deliberately flying into them. He survived this, and survived the war..
Non-pilot here. Why are organizations like the AOPA, NTSB, and FAA so insistant that ice bridging doesn't happen with properly functioning boots? Especially if its certified to fly into known icing conditions
This is not necessary with modern airframes and the belief has been a contributing factor in multiple accidents so please don't perpetuate this belief. The most you can say is that on some older planes unlikely to be in use anymore this might be the case.
As a commercial pilot with thousands of hours using boots, this video is tragic. If you have not been trained to use dicing boots, please leave the switch alone. You MUST let the ice build, then activate to split and peel the ice off. If you activate too early like this person is doing you may have tragic results.
Love the icing demo.......you have bigger cajonies than I do........lol........the only drawback to the IFR ticket is you have to fly in that junk on occasion ............the good part of IFR is breaking out on top of a shallow marine layer into the bright sunshine.......one of lifes grand moments.......and a real treat only for aviators.............
This is why the ice boots need to be maintained according to the BF good rich schedule, and ICEX should be used when you know you’re going into icing. for those of you that do not know, ICEX is a polish that helps the ice release, it’s kind of like armor all on your on your car tires.
Basically: ice on the wings of an airplane disrupts airflow and decreases lift. It is extremely dangerous and has cost many lives over the years. De-icing boots inflate, breaking up the ice on the leading edge and letting it fall away: this partially solves the problem. As well, if you’ve ever been on a plane in the winter flying somewhere to see your family, and you notice them spraying the wings with something? That’s basically antifreeze, to melt ice accumulation before they leave.
The point IS knocking the ice off. Boots are DE-icing devices not ANTI-ice devices. You want to destroy the ice you already got; if you want to prevent ice build up you would need heaters. Pitot, prop, stall vane heaters are ANTI-ice devices.
Literalmente não entendo nada de motor de avião e aqui aprendi que gelo é um problema aeronáutico mesmo no Brasil e que pilotos de poltrona (que evitei, não sou abutre) já comentavam sobre isso ser gelo antes mesmo de sair a notícia no avherald
de-ice by engine bleed is a proven concept, but for the smaller jets like citations sometimes de-icing boots its the only way to go without incurring a substantial performance loss, especially if the engines are small to begin with.
In the first deice video of the right wing, I see multiple things going on. 1st, This is probably not his ‘first’ deice cycle, judging by the remnant chucks of ice scattered along the wing. 2nd, By watching the wisps of clouds go by, and the blue sky above, he’s running through the tops of the clouds, which is almost the worst place he could be. Best to climb a little higher, to assure full time VMC conditions. If that’s impossible, then descend maybe 500-1,000 ft. back into the clouds, you’ll probably pick up more ice during the descent, if still above the freezing level, but less ice than running through the tops. In this particular case, I believe there’s a lot of ice that was ‘not’ shed with previous deice cycles, therefore from observing this picture and video of the right wing, I think that this wing is in bad shape. If it were me, I would climb higher to assure full time VMC, and eventually, this ice already on the wing, will slowly sublimate away, but it will take awhile. If a higher climb is ‘not’ possible, and a different direction of flight is not possible, then at least descend to prevent further ice accretion by running through the tops, “if” indeed the aircraft is still building more ice. If it’s not, and you can’t climb, then just stay there, and don’t give up altitude. If you have to descend then, #1 try blowing the boots again with a higher IAS during the descent, especially if you’re accumulating more ice on the boots. Maybe the extra airspeed, with the thicker ice layer will peel the ice away in bigger chunks, as you cycle the boots, but maybe not. If this doesn’t work then you’ve got a problem. You may want to get this aircraft on the ground as soon as possible, preferably on a runway at an airport. How much time you’ll have to work this out, depends on what your KIAS is once level at some lower altitude. I don’t know the numbers on this C-210, but some similar aircraft have absolute minimum speeds like 1.67 VSI = 105 KIAS, before the aircraft “stalls” &/or rolls over into a spin, and 1.75 VSI = 110 KIAS for minimum emergency climb speed, and 1.9 VSI = 120 KIAS for an all around “minimum” level airspeed before having to do something different. Anyway, if you could not maintain these minimum airspeeds, and you were not able to get below the freezing level and still be at or above the MEA or MSA according to ATC, and you could not find solid VMC, non precip conditions, then an immediate diversion to an airport would be necessary, if you were not able to make it to an airport, then an “off” airport landing, as ugly as that sounds, would be a better choice than allowing the aircraft to stall, or even roll over into a spin !! 3rd, You can see some ‘runback’ of ice on the bottom of the wing, aft of the deice boot. This runback is indicative of icing conditions “beyond” what is certified or safe for this aircraft, requiring some action by the pilot to exit those conditions, either by climbing to VMC conditions, or descending to better icing conditions, or below the freezing level, or to VMC. Or staying at that altitude, but changing the direction of flight to enter VMC conditions. 4th, This black rubber deice boot was most likely NOT “saturated” with ICEX prior to departure, hence the ice will not slid off as easy as it should if properly treated before takeoff. 5th, The ice will peel off better the faster the “indicated” airspeed is. Some may have heard of pilots diving the airplane before blowing the boots, so this is why that’s sometimes done. For example, a C-210 such as this aircraft, already iced up, at altitude, is probably “not” indicating 150 kias as it might be with a clean wing at a lower altitude. It might only be showing 130 kias or even 120 kias. At these low IAS’s there is not enough airspeed to peel the ice off in chunks, especially so with “non” ICEX’d boots. A fast twin piston or turboprop aircraft indicating 180 KIAS or more, will have an easier time shedding the ice with the “force” of that much IAS tearing away the chunks of ice. 6th, I certainly can’t tell from this video, but the OAT plays a “huge” part in planning icing flight strategies. This starts on the ground during preflight planning by looking at the winds aloft temps, then planning your IMC trip completely below the freezing level if possible, or partially below the freezing level, then above the freezing level as MEA’s dictate, and aiming for -15 C or -25 C as appropriate, as I’ll talk about later, near the end of this article. Incidentally, when viewing these winds aloft forecasts, if the 6-hr. winds aloft forecast time period “times-out” during your flight, or is close to the next 6-hr. time period, you might consider using a figure closer to that next 6-hr. winds aloft forecast period, as it may prove more accurate. Once airborne, it’s really not a bad idea to just write down the observed OAT’s every 1,000 ft. while climbing to your cruise altitude, maybe starting around +06 C, and then ‘every’ 1,000 ft. after that, up to your ‘final’ cruising altitude. You find out several things by doing this, # 1-the actual temperatures you find, (OAT’s), may not match the ‘forecast’ winds aloft temps. #2-the standard lapse rate of 2 C per 1,000 ft. may be different, which can mean many things. #3-it may be nice to know at what altitude the warmer temps “actually” are at, or were at, as opposed to where they were forecast to be. Although on a longer trip, if flying over different terrain or through different weather systems, then this obviously could change, so a reference back to your winds aloft temps forecast, and soliciting current pireps from ATC for freezing levels and temps at different altitudes would be prudent. Although the “probability of icing forecast maps” can be a great product to use, keep in mind that “anytime” you’re above the freezing level in precip, or IMC, icing conditions may be present, and sometimes, rather ugly. So, if the “probably of icing forecast maps” says it’s bad, then it’s best to assume that, “Yes”, it ‘is’ bad, or could be bad. If the maps indicate not so much ice, or ‘no’ ice, then take that information with a ‘grain of salt’ and consider the OAT’s you’ll be flying through vs the terrain, and/or convective vs ‘non’ convective stratoform clouds. Obviously, flying below the freezing level, or in VMC conditions would be the best, but short of that, flying in ‘very cold temps’ at altitude can definitely help the icing situation. In “non” mountainous areas, and in “non” convective clouds, flying at an altitude which yields an OAT of at least as cold as -15 C will usually reduce your chances of ice accumulation by 90% !! You will definitely pick up ice on the climb out, from around the freezing level up to the -15 C altitude, so you’ll have to deal with that. But there’s a 90% chance of not accumulating ‘any more’ ice on top of what you already picked up on the climb-out. But the 90% number also means that there’s a 10% chance of “anything go’s”, meaning that “Anything” could happen, including Heavy ice, or worse ! So, “Always” have an out in mind, a “bailout” plan, just in case. This is due to the complexities and dynamic nature of icing, there’s lot’s and lot’s of variables involved. When flying in and around Mountainous terrain, or in and around Convective clouds, this magic 90% ‘No ice’ OAT changes dramatically, like around -25 C or even colder sometimes, so here one must tread lightly and cautiously, or better yet, avoid “if possible”, these 2 most treacherous areas and conditions.
There are de icing and anti icing boots on aircraft. These are de icing boots, they remove ice as it builds up by expanding using compressed hot air. Anti icing systems use heated leading edge that prevents ice from firming in the first place.
Yes that's true. Hot air is 'bled' from the engines and fed via picollo tubes to the leading edge of the wing (and on some aircraft, such as the Bombardier Challenger the front of the engine cowls).
That's actually terrifying at how ineffective the boots are at removing the ice. It's an ancient technology, why not have electric or kerosine powered heaters on the wings for these smaller planes?!
The right wing ice didn't dislodge, which is bad. The ice will continue it's buildup on top of the non-dislodged layer, then the boots can inflate all they want but no ice will be dislodged. You waited too long to knock the ice off, at lest on the right wing, left seemed to mostly come off.
There are 2 types of equipment...DE ice or ANTI ice. Get your facts! I avoid ice with anything but a jet with hot wings. Ice is scary and can bring an aircraft down in minutes. I descended through a 1,500ft thick cloud layer once and had enough ice that I could not arrest the rate of descent. Resulted in a very hard landing.
You mean anti-ice. The boots are De-icers, usually on aircraft rated for unknown icing conditions, while the hot electrical systems are Anti-ice, and are on aircraft rated for known icing conditions. Subtle but important difference. :)
Read the book Fate is the Hunter, the chapter "Ice". This is proof that these type of boots have been this way since the late 30's. The whole book is excellent but that chapter and what almost happens to them in a DC-2 will make a believer out of anyone who knows anything about ice and airplanes
On turbofan aircraft it's not uncommon to use some air bled from the compressor stage (rather hot) to keep the wings ice free. Although on smaller aircraft with piston engines or small turbofan or turboprop engines it's not as fesible as they need all the power they can get.
He’s using that to soon. Have to let the ice build up more. Good demonstration of how not to use a boot. How it will build a tunnel if applied to soon.
So in flight school they told us to wait till the Ice is a little thicker so that when the boot inflates it will break and fall away. I guess these guys never learned the importance of waiting till the rite moment to use the boots. Well lesson learned now.
Hi there, it's Dominic from the Mentour NOW! channel, can we get your permission to feature this video in one of our upcoming videos? We will of course provide full back-links to your channel?
You didn't wait long enough !! They work MUCH better if pilot waits until there is a pretty thick sheet of ice to break, they it pops right off -- I know from experience and it wasn't fun, but they got the job done several times... scary
Was looking into why this got recommended all of a sudden since I have no interest in booted ices (Brazilian, the ATR 72 crash, now Indirectly learned armchair pilots are putting all their chips on icing issues)
What you're looking at is the leading edges (front ends) of the wings. The "boots" are made of rubber and are inflatable. When they are inflated, they crack the ice that has built up and it falls away. The boots are then deflated again and return to their normal shape.
if i was designing this system i would divert glycol from the engine cooling jacket into the wings leading edges so it would act as deicing and radiator cooling for the engine. if it was a turbine engine i would have a heat exchanger on the turbine exhaust divert some of the heat into glycol/water and just feed it into wing leading edges. it just seems like the most simple yet reliable solution.
@@unguidedone Called a heat muff and commonly used to heat the interior of the plane. I doubt there's enough heat to be extracted to cover the entire wing effectively. It's a pretty crummy heat exchanger, as nobody wants to give up anything on planes this size as you would with an exhaust restriction necessary to make a good heat exchanger. .
@@pontiacg445 I'm honestly surprised we don't see more electrical powered wind edge heating element solutions out there. Its not like cars haven't had anti-ice windshields for decades by now. A few wires crossing across the surface (or under a jacket over the wing edge) that get heated might do the trick.
@cirebackwards1 yea, that's actually very dangerous because if the ice doesn't break off, it just forms a hard shell that the boot can't break. and then ur really screwed. The boots are already to small on most aircraft. Anti-icing development is behind the times seeing as they don't even use CFD.
The pilot did activate the boots a bit to soon. Also coating the with silicone spray helps at the first view releases. But it could be the last bust of ice as it appears to fly on top of the clouds. But well what do you know. Not many pilots do know how to work that boot system well as they don’t receive training not make experience. For this pilot he didn’t have any ice to worry about as all is gone after a view blows
@chaseme81871 There are inflatable rubber boots on the wing leading edge that are inflated at set intervals to break off the ice, which would otherwise cause catastrophic deterioration of the flight caracteristics of the aircraft.
@chaseme81871 he is showing the operation of the de icing boots, but the point is that he actuate them too early, to be efective, you got to wait till the ice is thiker and flies off as a chunk, not as flakes, like it did in the video
Actually boots on the be200 work quite well. The problem in this video is they were used prematurely. You risk the danger of ice bridging if you don’t wait until you have a more substantial buildup. “Army training”not my opinion.
@ernk72 They have temp sensors, although on the 210 I think it's just a little knob the pilot can see which will build up ice and let the pilot know he's flying in icing conditions.
It takes a while for the leading edge to heat up and start melting the ice. And some boots swell and then heat up. And the same goes for the engine leading edges.
1. The boots are called De-icing boots not Icing boots! 2. Wait until til the ice has built up a little more to crack it off. Running the boots early like this can create an airspace behind the ice and the boot will not be able to crack it off.
I'm a 787 Captain for a major U.S. carrier and recently had a trip with a friend in his Cessna 414 from L.A. to Calgary. On the way back we got some pretty good ice. I was shocked at how ineffective the boots were. Guys please be careful in these small planes, especially when flying over high terrain. You have limited options to get out of it when things don't go so well when your MEA is 12,000ft and the freezing level is 8,000ft. If you are lucky, you may be able to climb to get on top if you still have the performance. My personal opinion is that on these light twins, the anti-ice systems are designed to give you some time to get out of icing conditions and not for sustained flight into "Known Icing". Also, remember that severe icing by definition means that you are accumulating more ice than the aircraft is capable of removing. One man's severe may be another man's light. Our big jets are designed for all-weather conditions and even have automatic icing detection and protection on the 787. Stay safe and know the plane's limitations and your own!
Sal Crocker Are you really a pilot?
@@AdventureswithaaronB most likley
couldve been a de icing bridge.
So which sim do you fly? LOL
Flight 3407 had loads of issues inside the cockpit... but one thing that could have made their job easier would have been effective anti icing. That night was awful and the ice was thick, those boots never would be able to catch up on that Q400.
The title should say: "Ineffective De-icing Boots in Action."
The issue is that he activated them too early. There needs to be around 1/4 of an inch of ice on the leading edges before you activate the boots. Otherwise, the ice stretches around the boots but doesn’t break off which is what happens here. Very ineffective in this case.
Rob S good job my degree in aeronautical engineering and 18,000 hours on jets mean I do understand. Muppet.
@@benmcdonough4340 In my training, we were told to use them early and often.
In 2008, NTSB published a safety alert recommending pilots to use the boots as soon as you encounter icing. Seems to be a heavily debated topic by the looks of it.
@@h3sh926 My company says otherwise but there may be different rules of thought. I was told if you use them too early then you get an ice bridge.
@@h3sh926 According to the PHAK, (7-40) Bridging was possible on earlier boots and older airframes but not likely on modern installations. So it depends on the aircraft ultimately.
Icing Boots: No need to thank me
Pilot: But you didn't even do anythi--
Icing Boots: Sorry, I can't hear you-- **freezes over**
hahaha this is hilarious
What? It removed a lot of the ice
LOL
Since when can icing boots fuckin talk?
Tony Stark: "Did you solve the icing problem?"
Aircraft Engineers: “No”
Icing problem?
@@ethanspaziani5269 *punches head*
@@ethanspaziani5269 “Might wanna look into it...”
came for this comment
Is this “Icing boots in action” or “Icing boots inaction?” 😜
Yes
LoL, you just destroyed iceboots 😂😂
The video ended and I was like: "wait...did it do it yet?"
Nailed it
This comment wins.
Doesn't look very effective, still ice especially on the first one.
it's because the ice was too thin at the time they "de-iced"
Yeah, who needs leading edge after all ? !
That's because they're just showing you how they work. Usually you have to wait till you get 3 inch thick ice before you deploy them.
They aren't. Bleed air systems are much better and are adjustable on the fly. But below a certain size, and in certain conditions, you have no other choice. The OP states in the description that this is a "known ice" certified Cessna, which is a higher standard (with the airframe certified for a certain level of ice build up, not sure exactly what). Clearly whatever small visual effect the boots have is considered significant enough in effect by the FAA to warrant special permission to fly where others would be prohibited.
@@automotivetv9861 3 inch thick is insane amounts of ice. You will be in serious trouble if you think you can fly with 3 inches of ice before using de-icing.
I used to fly Purolator packages and canceled checks in a Cessna 402 and a Piper Aztec in 1981/82. Both aircraft had inflatable boots, hot plates or alchohol on the windshield and hot props. I operated in the upper mid-west. In the winter, we always had icing conditions. It was just a matter of how much. Both Cessna and piper were low wing aircraft. I needed the ice to come off when I blew the boots because I was flying multiple stops on a schedule Monday through Friday. In other words, getting a deice in between legs wasnt going to happen. My employer at the time was experienced old school that had flown since the late 1930s. The man knew every trick in the book. He taught all his freight drivers to treat the boots with floor wax before entering icing conditions and in between every stop we had to use a hardwood stick to lightly tap on and clear away any residual ice. At intermediate stops we were taught to use a spray can of table top wax such as Lemon Pledge on the leading edges including the props. If my boots were expanding properly(sometimes they didnt) the ice would fly off the greasy Lemon Pledged surfaces and leave all the leading edges nearly clear. Pulling the props back would also help to get the ice to release. Dont screw up and pull them back too far. Also cycling the props would only work a few times then it was diminishing returns. Time to land if you werent hearing the ice hit the fuselage when you pulled the props back. Dont be lazy and just maybe you wont screw the pooch and auger in.
"Auger in." Now, I haven't heard that one in a long time. "Lawn darts" is what we used to call the Blackhawk helicopters back when they were still trying to figure out their "automatic" tail elevator 'problem.'
Some great info here. Many thanks for sharing.
Your story is almost identical to mine. I used to fly Purolator packages in the region around their hubs at Indianapolis and Columbus, OH in 1981-82 in Aztecs and Twin Beeches. The Beech had alcohol props and windshield, but the better part was that the boots would extend out much farther than is typical on other planes, and so they were a lot more effective. On intermediate stops with the Aztec, I also had to get out and manually remove ice off all the leading edges. Typical boots on fairly modern planes are tricky to use and you have to be very careful about when you blow them. If I had lots and lots of money and wanted a plane, I wouldn't get one that didn't have hot wings.
And please, young pilots: de-icing systems are for emergency purposes. What happens when you're in a rush, tired, hassled, and the de-icing system has a mechanical malfunction? If you're at all worried about conditions, don't fly. If anyone laughs at you, don't worry, you'll be at their funeral soon enough.
Man I wish I had a pilot license so I could try all those tricks. Somebody's gonna be able to utilize them
Confidence Level: Low
Stress Level : *High*
Just curious. I know nothing about planes . Why would one’s confidence be low with a high stress level? It looks like it would be a safety device for the wing, no?
Fuck that lol
@@MrBehnke1987 not much ice was really removed. More ice means more weight (or drag depending on the shape of the ice). When ice builds up on the wings planes have to land at faster approach speeds because the ice changes the aerodynamics of the aircraft otherwise they stall!
@@master1387 it’s not trying to remove it , it’s trying to prevent more
These are actually de-icing boots which allow a build-up of ice before they are inflated by a cyclic timer to shed the built-up ice.
In contrast, an anti-icing system uses either hot-air bled from the engines or electrical heaters to heat the leading-edge to prevent any ice build-up.
Thanks, Captain Obvious!
@@savagedabs8536 No, it's not obvious because if you read all of the comments for this video, there's a lot of confusion between anti-icing and de-icing. That's why I explained the difference.
Thanks for your comment anyway😁
@@125brat Why wouldn't you want to be Captain Obvious? He rules. Good day, sir
@@savagedabs8536let me also be Captain Obvious - You completely missed the point of the comment.
@@lalruatfela3394You're definitely not cool enough to be Captain Obvious. That's not how any of this works, you don't give yourself that title. Imagine not knowing this was satire? But I missed the point, right?😂😂😂
I had the impression they worked a lot better than that.
You're supposed to have more buildup before using it
@@scottycatman The statement that icing needs to build up actually caused a stall and crash. Manufacturer states to activate as soon as icing occurs, the exact best practice varies by speed and conditions, but rather sooner than later. ruclips.net/video/YLrzz2VY6w8/видео.html
@@scottycatmannope that's dangerous statement modern deice boots don't have bridging problems
I usually wait until i'm full throttle, nose pitched up 20 deg, and i'm losing 100 FPS altitude.
That's good thinkin'!
sure you do dummy.
ROFLMAO x3
You're either a liar or a dumbass. You choose.
Flip them suckers on and let em hum while you get your butt out of there.
@Togapower So is he Mr Obvious
Read that as 100 frames per second...
Looked to me the boots were used before a decent layer of ice had accumulated. If the ice is thin the boots blow to up without removal and when the boot is deflated the ice remains but now the boot is completely ineffective behind a layer of ice. I used to fly an Aztec E and got severely iced once, the only thing that saved me were the boots, heated props and good luck. The tailplane stalled twice on approach, closest Ive been to going in.
co polot! open your window and jab the ice with my "back scratcher!"...
larry
At 0:16 I thought, "Why show this, there's no ice". Then the boots inflated and - whoa! - there was the ice.
ICY what you did there.
touché
I hate this but you get a like
More like what you failed to do there lol
ha !
"usually on aircraft rated for unknown icing conditions" Not quite... Boots are used on many airplanes (including some jets) that are "known icing" certified. The plane in this video is a "known ice" equipped Cessna 210. Most heat based de-icing systems are on jets and use bleed air - not electrics - to heat the wings.
You made a lot of people upset by posting this video. Thank you
2 many responses hear from folks who were never in ice. When boots are inflated too soon you may experience "bridging". That is an initial thin layer of ice merely rises off and will end up collecting more ice on its own surface with the initial ice still adhering to the air frame. That is what is happening in this video. As one res-ponder said below you need to wait for ice to build up to certain thickness before popping the boots will be effective. Only experience in ice can teach as to when to activate the boots. Also, don't forget to use that goop that Good Year recommends to grease the boots up with (it makes a big difference). I've logged over three months of my life (meaning over 2000 hours) in IMC in the winter in New England, New York State and Pennsylvania in light aircraft. My total flight time is much more. Be careful out there. When you're alone in the sky, with nature, in a tin can that's icing up...WOW, I really can't convey the feelings that rush through. 3 biggest fears are fog, T-storms and ICE. The rest is cake walk.
That is logical; if the a/c is able to maintain height long enough for leading edge ice to build to a certain thickness such that it achieves rigidity, it is less able to flex with the boot and more likely to catch the breeze and break away. i recall reading the memoirs of a '30's test pilot who tested many devices, including prototype leading edge air bladders for exactly this purpose. He also tested wingtip automatic cutters for barrage balloon cables, tasked with deliberately flying into them. He survived this, and survived the war..
Non-pilot here. Why are organizations like the AOPA, NTSB, and FAA so insistant that ice bridging doesn't happen with properly functioning boots? Especially if its certified to fly into known icing conditions
@W4t3rf1r3 Cause they ain't ever been in the hot seat when Mother Nature is askin' you to clear all the ice outta the sky!
This is not necessary with modern airframes and the belief has been a contributing factor in multiple accidents so please don't perpetuate this belief. The most you can say is that on some older planes unlikely to be in use anymore this might be the case.
@@W4t3rf1r3 because it's outdated advice that it could happen and waiting has caused accidents
As a commercial pilot with thousands of hours using boots, this video is tragic. If you have not been trained to use dicing boots, please leave the switch alone. You MUST let the ice build, then activate to split and peel the ice off. If you activate too early like this person is doing you may have tragic results.
The best part is when they aren't doing their job.
Stark: How did you figure out the icing problem?
Stane: Icing problem?
Tony stark punches head and says. "Might wanna look into it"
Love the icing demo.......you have bigger cajonies than I do........lol........the only drawback to the IFR ticket is you have to fly in that junk on occasion ............the good part of IFR is breaking out on top of a shallow marine layer into the bright sunshine.......one of lifes grand moments.......and a real treat only for aviators.............
Former C-117 crew chief: You have to let the ice build up a good thick layer before turning the boots on.
Wrong! These are not icing boots. These are deicing boots. You definitely wouldn't want icing boots on your plane.
RUclips recommendation : Have you ever though of ice forming on a plane ?
Now you do
This is why the ice boots need to be maintained according to the BF good rich schedule, and ICEX should be used when you know you’re going into icing. for those of you that do not know, ICEX is a polish that helps the ice release, it’s kind of like armor all on your on your car tires.
Time to kick some ice with mighty boot.
I really expected to see more ice shed off the wing.
Excusez moi je sors de la douche
Boy that really inspires confidence...
I don't care what its certified for, I'm not flying any GA into known ice lol
That is very cool. I had no idea of their purpose until now
I was expecting more than that honestly
Fascinating!I know little about aircraft so this just interests me...
Basically: ice on the wings of an airplane disrupts airflow and decreases lift. It is extremely dangerous and has cost many lives over the years. De-icing boots inflate, breaking up the ice on the leading edge and letting it fall away: this partially solves the problem.
As well, if you’ve ever been on a plane in the winter flying somewhere to see your family, and you notice them spraying the wings with something? That’s basically antifreeze, to melt ice accumulation before they leave.
@@TheEmeraldMenOfficial Thanks for the info this is all fascinating,And yes,I did see them one time spraying the wings before we flew!Thanks again!
The point IS knocking the ice off. Boots are DE-icing devices not ANTI-ice devices. You want to destroy the ice you already got; if you want to prevent ice build up you would need heaters. Pitot, prop, stall vane heaters are ANTI-ice devices.
curioso o youtube me recomendar esse vídeo após o acidente o ATR.
Literalmente não entendo nada de motor de avião e aqui aprendi que gelo é um problema aeronáutico mesmo no Brasil e que pilotos de poltrona (que evitei, não sou abutre) já comentavam sobre isso ser gelo antes mesmo de sair a notícia no avherald
Boots were inflated too soon. You've got to wait for sufficient ice build up.
As old as it is, this is amazing technology
If you inflate too soon then you can't break the ice off
looks like the icing boot is more efficient with thicker ice on the wing, but the plane would be in the mountain already with the ice that thick.
de-ice by engine bleed is a proven concept, but for the smaller jets like citations sometimes de-icing boots its the only way to go without incurring a substantial performance loss, especially if the engines are small to begin with.
R5H4D0W - C-130Js have a boot on the bottom of the stab, and they do not fall into the "not a lot of power" category at all.
Engine bleed is not de-icing, it's anti-icing.
kinda depends on what it's applied to and when, don't you think?? 'course, using bleed air as DE-ice on the nacelles would be kinda silly, heh-heh.
In the first deice video of the right wing, I see multiple things going on.
1st, This is probably not his ‘first’ deice cycle, judging by the remnant chucks of ice scattered along the wing.
2nd, By watching the wisps of clouds go by, and the blue sky above, he’s running through the tops of the clouds, which is almost the worst place he could be. Best to climb a little higher, to assure full time VMC conditions.
If that’s impossible, then descend maybe 500-1,000 ft. back into the clouds, you’ll probably pick up more ice during the descent, if still above the freezing level, but less ice than running through the tops.
In this particular case, I believe there’s a lot of ice that was ‘not’ shed with previous deice cycles, therefore from observing this picture and video of the right wing, I think that this wing is in bad shape.
If it were me, I would climb higher to assure full time VMC, and eventually, this ice already on the wing, will slowly sublimate away, but it will take awhile.
If a higher climb is ‘not’ possible, and a different direction of flight is not possible, then at least descend to prevent further ice accretion by running through the tops, “if” indeed the aircraft is still building more ice. If it’s not, and you can’t climb, then just stay there, and don’t give up altitude.
If you have to descend then, #1 try blowing the boots again with a higher IAS during the descent, especially if you’re accumulating more ice on the boots. Maybe the extra airspeed, with the thicker ice layer will peel the ice away in bigger chunks, as you cycle the boots, but maybe not.
If this doesn’t work then you’ve got a problem.
You may want to get this aircraft on the ground as soon as possible, preferably on a runway at an airport.
How much time you’ll have to work this out, depends on what your KIAS is once level at some lower altitude.
I don’t know the numbers on this C-210, but some similar aircraft have absolute minimum speeds like 1.67 VSI = 105 KIAS, before the aircraft “stalls” &/or rolls over into a spin,
and 1.75 VSI = 110 KIAS for minimum emergency climb speed, and 1.9 VSI = 120 KIAS for an all around “minimum” level airspeed before having to do something different.
Anyway, if you could not maintain these minimum airspeeds, and you were not able to get below the freezing level and still be at or above the MEA or MSA according to ATC, and you could not find solid VMC, non precip conditions, then an immediate diversion to an airport would be necessary, if you were not able to make it to an airport, then an “off” airport landing, as ugly as that sounds, would be a better choice than allowing the aircraft to stall, or even roll over into a spin !!
3rd,
You can see some ‘runback’ of ice on the bottom of the wing, aft of the deice boot. This runback is indicative of icing conditions “beyond” what is certified or safe for this aircraft, requiring some action by the pilot to exit those conditions,
either by climbing to VMC conditions, or descending to better icing conditions, or below the freezing level, or to VMC. Or staying at that altitude, but changing the direction of flight to enter VMC conditions.
4th,
This black rubber deice boot was most likely NOT “saturated” with ICEX prior to departure, hence the ice will not slid off as easy as it should if properly treated before takeoff.
5th,
The ice will peel off better the faster the “indicated” airspeed is.
Some may have heard of pilots diving the airplane before blowing the boots, so this is why that’s sometimes done.
For example, a C-210 such as this aircraft, already iced up, at altitude, is probably “not” indicating 150 kias as it might be with a clean wing at a lower altitude.
It might only be showing 130 kias or even 120 kias.
At these low IAS’s there is not enough airspeed to peel the ice off in chunks, especially so with “non” ICEX’d boots.
A fast twin piston or turboprop aircraft indicating 180 KIAS or more, will have an easier time shedding the ice with the “force” of that much IAS tearing away the chunks of ice.
6th,
I certainly can’t tell from this video, but the OAT plays a “huge” part in planning icing flight strategies.
This starts on the ground during preflight planning by looking at the winds aloft temps, then planning your IMC trip completely below the freezing level if possible, or partially below the freezing level, then above the freezing level as MEA’s dictate, and aiming for -15 C or -25 C as appropriate, as I’ll talk about later, near the end of this article.
Incidentally, when viewing these winds aloft forecasts, if the 6-hr. winds aloft forecast time period “times-out” during your flight, or is close to the next 6-hr. time period, you might consider using a figure closer to that next 6-hr. winds aloft forecast period, as it may prove more accurate.
Once airborne, it’s really not a bad idea to just write down the observed OAT’s every 1,000 ft. while climbing to your cruise altitude, maybe starting around +06 C, and then ‘every’ 1,000 ft. after that, up to your ‘final’ cruising altitude.
You find out several things by doing this,
# 1-the actual temperatures you find, (OAT’s), may not match the ‘forecast’ winds aloft temps.
#2-the standard lapse rate of 2 C per 1,000 ft. may be different, which can mean many things.
#3-it may be nice to know at what altitude the warmer temps “actually” are at,
or were at, as opposed to where they were forecast to be.
Although on a longer trip, if flying over different terrain or through different weather systems, then this obviously could change, so a reference back to your winds aloft temps forecast, and soliciting current pireps from ATC for freezing levels and temps at different altitudes would be prudent.
Although the “probability of icing forecast maps” can be a great product to use, keep in mind that “anytime” you’re above the freezing level in precip, or IMC, icing conditions may be present, and sometimes, rather ugly.
So, if the “probably of icing forecast maps” says it’s bad, then it’s best to assume that, “Yes”, it ‘is’ bad, or could be bad. If the maps indicate not so much ice, or ‘no’ ice, then take that information with a ‘grain of salt’ and consider the OAT’s you’ll be flying through vs the terrain, and/or convective vs ‘non’ convective stratoform clouds.
Obviously, flying below the freezing level, or in VMC conditions would be the best, but short of that, flying in ‘very cold temps’ at altitude can definitely help the icing situation.
In “non” mountainous areas, and in “non” convective clouds, flying at an altitude which yields an OAT of at least as cold as -15 C will usually reduce your chances of ice accumulation by 90% !!
You will definitely pick up ice on the climb out, from around the freezing level up to the
-15 C altitude, so you’ll have to deal with that. But there’s a 90% chance of not accumulating ‘any more’ ice on top of what you already picked up on the climb-out.
But the 90% number also means that there’s a 10% chance of “anything go’s”,
meaning that “Anything” could happen, including Heavy ice, or worse !
So, “Always” have an out in mind, a “bailout” plan, just in case.
This is due to the complexities and dynamic nature of icing, there’s lot’s and lot’s of variables involved.
When flying in and around Mountainous terrain, or in and around Convective clouds, this magic 90% ‘No ice’ OAT changes dramatically, like around -25 C or even colder sometimes, so here one must tread lightly and cautiously, or better yet, avoid “if possible”, these 2 most treacherous areas and conditions.
These boots are much better than my system, when I am having any trouble I just send my girlfriend out there with an ice scraper.
whats a girlfriend?
Is that effective? Asking for a friend.
Girlfriend so cold...he's always in icing conditions!
Tony Stark: How'd you solve the icing problem?
There are de icing and anti icing boots on aircraft. These are de icing boots, they remove ice as it builds up by expanding using compressed hot air. Anti icing systems use heated leading edge that prevents ice from firming in the first place.
Yes that's true. Hot air is 'bled' from the engines and fed via picollo tubes to the leading edge of the wing (and on some aircraft, such as the Bombardier Challenger the front of the engine cowls).
So cool! Thank you for sharing!
I see what you did there
Ok.....at what moment is the ice removed??
That's actually terrifying at how ineffective the boots are at removing the ice. It's an ancient technology, why not have electric or kerosine powered heaters on the wings for these smaller planes?!
"Mission failed, we'll get them next time"
They looked like they were de-icing to me.
The right wing ice didn't dislodge, which is bad. The ice will continue it's buildup on top of the non-dislodged layer, then the boots can inflate all they want but no ice will be dislodged. You waited too long to knock the ice off, at lest on the right wing, left seemed to mostly come off.
"How did you fix the icing problem?"
"Icing problem?"
"Might wanna look into it."
Did the ice get off?
- Not what ICY.
Things like this are what the internet was made for
There are 2 types of equipment...DE ice or ANTI ice. Get your facts! I avoid ice with anything but a jet with hot wings. Ice is scary and can bring an aircraft down in minutes. I descended through a 1,500ft thick cloud layer once and had enough ice that I could not arrest the rate of descent. Resulted in a very hard landing.
You mean anti-ice. The boots are De-icers, usually on aircraft rated for unknown icing conditions, while the hot electrical systems are Anti-ice, and are on aircraft rated for known icing conditions. Subtle but important difference. :)
Why didn't they deice earlier? Why was the wing already iced uo?
@HereHaveACupOfWater I thought it would be boots that stick to ice so you can walk up an icy hill or something
it looks like your activating the cycle a tad too early.
Looks like they’re just shit no matter how they’re operated.
Myth. Educate yourself. It's impossible to activate a deicing boot early.
Too early..., maybe he should wait and drop out of the fucken sky just for you
nice video, I will use it in my aviation class as a good sample .
Read the book Fate is the Hunter, the chapter "Ice". This is proof that these type of boots have been this way since the late 30's.
The whole book is excellent but that chapter and what almost happens to them in a DC-2 will make a believer out of anyone who knows anything about ice and airplanes
ICY we are in trouble
Never heard of ice boots but that's kind of kool
PSYCHO PUPPIE .. technology from the 30s that still works.
Interesting. I had expected they would clear the ice completely.
On turbofan aircraft it's not uncommon to use some air bled from the compressor stage (rather hot) to keep the wings ice free. Although on smaller aircraft with piston engines or small turbofan or turboprop engines it's not as fesible as they need all the power they can get.
He’s using that to soon. Have to let the ice build up more. Good demonstration of how not to use a boot. How it will build a tunnel if applied to soon.
Popped them too soon
There's no thing as too soon with icing boots. Source: Comair 3272
Unresolved Sexual Tension Lol didn't expect someone with a Scarce avi would watch Air Crash Investigation.
That's what she said
@@visionist7 When I was in 5th grade ... 50 years ago. Shit's getting old.
Outdated information since '97, deadly in two known airliner crashes. FAA says use your boots early and often.
No ice was harmed during making of this clip
Good stuff. Very deadly that ice
I refuse to believe video was that good back in 2009.
So in flight school they told us to wait till the Ice is a little thicker so that when the boot inflates it will break and fall away. I guess these guys never learned the importance of waiting till the rite moment to use the boots. Well lesson learned now.
The absolute most pain in the ass job that ive done thus far was replacing them on King Airs. Much rather do an engine change than that crappy job.
Hi there, it's Dominic from the Mentour NOW! channel, can we get your permission to feature this video in one of our upcoming videos? We will of course provide full back-links to your channel?
You didn't wait long enough !! They work MUCH better if pilot waits until there is a pretty thick sheet of ice to break, they it pops right off -- I know from experience and it wasn't fun, but they got the job done several times... scary
As a non pilot, the one thing I've learned from this video and comments is: grease your boots.
This is one reason I no longer fly on a turbo-prop aircraft like an ATR-72. They can't get above the weather and avoid icing such as this.
Was looking into why this got recommended all of a sudden since I have no interest in booted ices (Brazilian, the ATR 72 crash, now Indirectly learned armchair pilots are putting all their chips on icing issues)
@@Mordecrox The armchair pilots won the jackpot considering the preliminary report that was recently released
Wish I knew what I was looking at there.
What you're looking at is the leading edges (front ends) of the wings. The "boots" are made of rubber and are inflatable. When they are inflated, they crack the ice that has built up and it falls away. The boots are then deflated again and return to their normal shape.
*Pushes ice out a little* "De-iced!"
Can’t you just open the window and use the scraper thing?
Humanity recommends that you turn on your deice boots prior to entering icing conditions and leave it on until you are out.
if i was designing this system i would divert glycol from the engine cooling jacket into the wings leading edges so it would act as deicing and radiator cooling for the engine. if it was a turbine engine i would have a heat exchanger on the turbine exhaust divert some of the heat into glycol/water and just feed it into wing leading edges. it just seems like the most simple yet reliable solution.
Where exactly might I locate the cooling jacket full of glycol on an air cooled engine??
@@pontiacg445 wow your right, why not recover some heat from the exhaust with a heat exchanger.
@@unguidedone Called a heat muff and commonly used to heat the interior of the plane. I doubt there's enough heat to be extracted to cover the entire wing effectively. It's a pretty crummy heat exchanger, as nobody wants to give up anything on planes this size as you would with an exhaust restriction necessary to make a good heat exchanger. .
@@pontiacg445 I'm honestly surprised we don't see more electrical powered wind edge heating element solutions out there. Its not like cars haven't had anti-ice windshields for decades by now. A few wires crossing across the surface (or under a jacket over the wing edge) that get heated might do the trick.
Some systems actually have a liquid glycol tanks that sprays the leading edges I know that is not what you are saying but it reminded me
Idk what i just watched but it looks cold
New title: "Boot does nothing to help" lol.
@cirebackwards1 yea, that's actually very dangerous because if the ice doesn't break off, it just forms a hard shell that the boot can't break. and then ur really screwed. The boots are already to small on most aircraft. Anti-icing development is behind the times seeing as they don't even use CFD.
very cool. First time I see that!
I lost 14 friends a dozen years ago when the C208 they were in iced up and augered in.
The pilot did activate the boots a bit to soon. Also coating the with silicone spray helps at the first view releases.
But it could be the last bust of ice as it appears to fly on top of the clouds.
But well what do you know.
Not many pilots do know how to work that boot system well as they don’t receive training not make experience.
For this pilot he didn’t have any ice to worry about as all is gone after a view blows
@chaseme81871 There are inflatable rubber boots on the wing leading edge that are inflated at set intervals to break off the ice, which would otherwise cause catastrophic deterioration of the flight caracteristics of the aircraft.
Thanks. I was still trying to figure how are they actually supposed to work but was unsure until I read your comment.
Just fly closer to the sun, problem solved.
@chaseme81871 he is showing the operation of the de icing boots, but the point is that he actuate them too early, to be efective, you got to wait till the ice is thiker and flies off as a chunk, not as flakes, like it did in the video
Mach Tuck ... No. Flip em on and go about your business. They cycle continuously.
I don’t think I would want icing boots on my plane. I think I’d rather have deicing boots.
that ice looked a little thin on some of those boots, you can see how a layer of thin ice was pushed out but not removed from the wing.
De-icing boots work better, obviously.
Actually boots on the be200 work quite well. The problem in this video is they were used prematurely. You risk the danger of ice bridging if you don’t wait until you have a more substantial buildup. “Army training”not my opinion.
It happens so fast... Just instantly.
Ice will cause aerodynamic flow problems. It also increases the weight of the aircraft and can exceed gross weight limits.
@ernk72 They have temp sensors, although on the 210 I think it's just a little knob the pilot can see which will build up ice and let the pilot know he's flying in icing conditions.
Yeh, but they're not actually getting rid of ice build-up, are they????
It takes a while for the leading edge to heat up and start melting the ice. And some boots swell and then heat up. And the same goes for the engine leading edges.
1. The boots are called De-icing boots not Icing boots! 2. Wait until til the ice has built up a little more to crack it off. Running the boots early like this can create an airspace behind the ice and the boot will not be able to crack it off.
Need to wait a little longer for ice accumulation for the boots to be effective