1:10 This was my thinking as well: one of the main uses of a central nervous system must be transmit alarm signals to the brain. If you have a brain, you feel pain. Great work Phil.
I went through HS biology in 1964. There was NO doubt or question that fish did feel pain according to our teacher at that date. In biology in college, in 67-70 there was a major change in the taxonomic structure, but the fact that fish could feel pain was not questioned. I have a hard time believing that someone could be so ignorant of basic biology.
There are a lot of papers in the scientific literature from pretty well informed scientists that they dont feel pain. We think we can prove them wrong and this is explained in the film but they have got their views into the literature.
It is a fact of life that every living thing feeds on the death of other living things. Some are wholly or partially consumed even while they are in the process of dying and feeling the pain of that process. Reality is, nature doesn't care about feelings.
Pain perception seems like it would be the first evolutionary step. Prevention of death in relation to un-necessary harm due to pain. Even humans don't experience pain in deadly circumstances, such as deadly gas inhilation.
just to assume fish are merely reactionary, and don't register pain consciously seems to me completely asinine. but what do i know, in my humble opinion.
I'm using this video to enhance my note-taking skills while also learning something new. The content is presented in a very clear and logical way, as usual, so this is excellent practice material. I love the other videos which I've seen as well. Thank you!
People would probably have an easier time accepting this intuitively if they could scream. Fish body language is just so divergent from tetrapods (obviously).
Fishes may not be able to scream but it should be plainly apparent to any reasonable person from the fish's body language that they are in distress/pain when they are being harmed. Most people are just so culturally programmed to believe that fishes aren't sentient that they fail to even question it. Fishing is presented as a peaceful pastime when it is anything but that.
@@PhilHalper1 "There was a time when doctors performed surgery on infants without anesthesia. And I don't mean centuries ago. This happened in the 1980s, and it wasn't rare. Somehow, despite babies crying or screaming, the medical community had convinced itself they couldn't feel pain. A lot of the reasoning had to do with the belief that infant brain pathways were too immature to register the sensation. And a massive contributor to the horrifying misunderstanding was that the tiny patients couldn't verbalize their emotions. They couldn't say: "I'm in a lot of pain. Please help." Then in 1987, the American Academy of Pediatrics finally deemed the practice we'd now consider barbaric to be unethical. Study after study showed that infants do feel pain like us. And I know I'm not alone in my shock that this practice wasn't remedied sooner." www.cnet.com/science/biology/bees-get-anxious-and-octopuses-feel-pain-why-do-we-look-away/
17:20 ive often wondered this about animals. It makes sense that an animal without communicative abilities like humans would benefit from a stronger sense of pain. Im no scientist tho.
Thank you again for the interesting video. The final comment (that pain serves the survival purpose of avoiding harm) is hard to doubt, and the earlier ideas in the video of isolating components which fish pain deniers say are necessary for feeling pain were also very clever (the analgesic-seeking experiment was also very good). But, what would you say to a fish pain denier if they'd argue that a specific combination of those components is needed to experience pain? Perhaps the person with the brain damage still had other brain regions active which the fish lack, and that is causing the pain, or perhaps some combination of nerves and brain regions is needed, and that combination is not there for the fish.
They would have to say what those other brain regions are and we can investigate that. But they have said ACC and insula , both of which Roger lack so that shows they cant be necessary.
The next step is to recognise the moral imperative that flows from realising fishes and other animals are sentient. At the absolute minimum we should not needlessly exploit, harm or kill these beings regardless of how "normal" we have come to think of doing just that at industrial scale in our farms, fisheries, laboratories and elsewhere. Imagine we'd been able to work out that fishes can feel hurt without us having to hurt them :(. And imagine that realising they can feel pain didn't motivate us towards using them even more aggressively as research models :( My conversation with Mark Solms might be of interest: ruclips.net/video/lcrxdHOVLQQ/видео.html
well these guys think that www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130808123719.htm and in science we need to counter their arguments and not just say well its obvious
I was tought as a young child that fish don't feel pain, a foolish way to think. I believe we need nutrients to survive but I would want to make it as peaceful as possible.
Interesting. But pain is a human word and the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. The words we use to describe reality is not reality. Maybe they are right, and I don’t doubt other species having an inner experience, but I think they are interpreting too much. Is what we call pain descriptive too this system that is there to protect the individual animal from harm? Maybe it has other functions too but that one seems pretty obvious. What is it like to be a fish? We don’t know that anymore than about being a bat. I’m not arguing for doing whatever one wants to other living beings. I’m just saying to me these people are interpreting this from a very human centric point and making assumptions.
@@PhilHalper1 well if you wanna go all the way, all "you" know is that there is an experience happening. Maybe its inside your own head and the rest doen't really exist. Sure. Thats also possible. But to keep it to what I understood was the point of your video. As a human you of course have a very good idea of how other humans work, if nothing else, on the basis of yourself. You have no idea if a concept like pain, which exist for us with a definition, exists for them in the same way. If they didn't have an alarm system they would die out, but is that pain as we experience, or at least understand pain. These people are describing something and thinking about it in the terms of being a human superimposed onto a fish. Thats what it sounds to me when they are describing their findings. The words describing reality is not reality. My interest is consciousness and in that sense I find the video interesting.
@@thobraa People tend to think that humans are so special. We're animals, too. There's no good reason to think that pain would be experienced so differently in other species who are so biologically similar to ourselves. Fishes also have far greater mental capability than most people realize. They should certainly be given the benefit of any doubt that they can physically and mentally suffer pain in ways that matter, as the scientific evidence indicates.
@@maryfinelli9390 it’s not really a point I disagree with. Rather I’m saying that they are making assumptions based on concepts that are human,. Getting away from one room it usually prefers to another because of pain killers means that it indicates that the animal feels pain. Is this pain as we understand it? It is obviously a system of survival but from there to pain is a leap for me. How can we imagine being a fish? I cannot ask the fish. I can ask other humans l. I can imagine a whole lot of things my cat does and create human stories from it, but I really have no idea what it’s like to be a cat. I strongly believe it’s capable of feeling pain that is similar to us. But I can’t ask it. I have no idea what it’s like. With fish the leap is much larger. I would love to know at what level this pain, as we know it, how developed an animal must be to feel pain. Because this thing I imagine must be very primitive, in order to help all of our ancestoral species stay alive. Is/was there something proto-pain? It has nothing to do with me saying it’s ok to be cruel to living beings. Whether it’s animals in the water, on land or in air. I just don’t think these guys have proven that what we call pain is the reason for the behavior they saw. An example is industrial fish farming, i think it sucks and also that the fish definitely wants to get away, they get diseases etc but i don’t know if it’s pain. I ramble :) sorry about that.
More like go humane, considering the entire circle of life is based on consumption of other animals / plant life. Lions don't care about pain when they are eating prey.
I’m going chip shop and will ponder this while I’m feasting on battered cod and mushy peas… but should I be worried about the peas felt pain or just enjoy them
Phenomenal information. Thank you so much!
you are very welcome
1:10 This was my thinking as well: one of the main uses of a central nervous system must be transmit alarm signals to the brain.
If you have a brain, you feel pain. Great work Phil.
thanks
I went through HS biology in 1964. There was NO doubt or question that fish did feel pain according to our teacher at that date. In biology in college, in 67-70 there was a major change in the taxonomic structure, but the fact that fish could feel pain was not questioned. I have a hard time believing that someone could be so ignorant of basic biology.
There are a lot of papers in the scientific literature from pretty well informed scientists that they dont feel pain. We think we can prove them wrong and this is explained in the film but they have got their views into the literature.
@skydivephil they must all fish as a hobby.
Thank you so much. Fishes sentience matters.
your welcome
But have you considered the fact that it would make us feel so much better if they didn't? Case closed sir
indeed
It is a fact of life that every living thing feeds on the death of other living things. Some are wholly or partially consumed even while they are in the process of dying and feeling the pain of that process. Reality is, nature doesn't care about feelings.
@@eriolduterion8855 yep that is true but we do , or at least some of us do
Right@@PhilHalper1, compassionate people do.
Highly interesting and relevant. Great compilation and presentation of the evidence.
Pain perception seems like it would be the first evolutionary step. Prevention of death in relation to un-necessary harm due to pain. Even humans don't experience pain in deadly circumstances, such as deadly gas inhilation.
Well, this significantly hollows out the ethical arguments for pescetarianism.
thanks
just to assume fish are merely reactionary, and don't register pain consciously seems to me completely asinine. but what do i know, in my humble opinion.
I quit catch and release fishing. Abuse (for my enjoyment) is an accurate description ....
💜💜💜 Thank you. Eat your food, don't play with it. 🐈
@@EllyTaliesinBinglehow about don’t eat it at all? Why can’t we just respect sealife and let them live?
I'm using this video to enhance my note-taking skills while also learning something new. The content is presented in a very clear and logical way, as usual, so this is excellent practice material. I love the other videos which I've seen as well. Thank you!
your welcome thanks for your comment,
Succinct, clear, jumps right into the science. Fascinating video.
People would probably have an easier time accepting this intuitively if they could scream. Fish body language is just so divergent from tetrapods (obviously).
yeah thats a good observation
Fishes may not be able to scream but it should be plainly apparent to any reasonable person from the fish's body language that they are in distress/pain when they are being harmed. Most people are just so culturally programmed to believe that fishes aren't sentient that they fail to even question it. Fishing is presented as a peaceful pastime when it is anything but that.
@@maryfinelli9390 I agree
I think we should assume all vertebrates feel pain
a safe assumption but where there are so many doubters for fish pain we need to provide the evidence and in this video we do
Agree... Didn't we also operate on infants with no anesthesia very recently? It gives me shivers down my spine!
@@elfootman what's recently? Any references for that?
@@PhilHalper1 pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23548489/
@@PhilHalper1 "There was a time when doctors performed surgery on infants without anesthesia. And I don't mean centuries ago. This happened in the 1980s, and it wasn't rare. Somehow, despite babies crying or screaming, the medical community had convinced itself they couldn't feel pain.
A lot of the reasoning had to do with the belief that infant brain pathways were too immature to register the sensation. And a massive contributor to the horrifying misunderstanding was that the tiny patients couldn't verbalize their emotions. They couldn't say: "I'm in a lot of pain. Please help." Then in 1987, the American Academy of Pediatrics finally deemed the practice we'd now consider barbaric to be unethical. Study after study showed that infants do feel pain like us. And I know I'm not alone in my shock that this practice wasn't remedied sooner."
www.cnet.com/science/biology/bees-get-anxious-and-octopuses-feel-pain-why-do-we-look-away/
Fascinant.
thanks
Can human feel pain?, may be its just biological response.😂
lol
17:20 ive often wondered this about animals. It makes sense that an animal without communicative abilities like humans would benefit from a stronger sense of pain. Im no scientist tho.
ruclips.net/p/PLJ4zAUPI-qqo2sz5RuXkZ2mZdHQ5Pxgxb&si=PmybbiidJqO6tMYk
Thank you again for the interesting video. The final comment (that pain serves the survival purpose of avoiding harm) is hard to doubt, and the earlier ideas in the video of isolating components which fish pain deniers say are necessary for feeling pain were also very clever (the analgesic-seeking experiment was also very good). But, what would you say to a fish pain denier if they'd argue that a specific combination of those components is needed to experience pain? Perhaps the person with the brain damage still had other brain regions active which the fish lack, and that is causing the pain, or perhaps some combination of nerves and brain regions is needed, and that combination is not there for the fish.
They would have to say what those other brain regions are and we can investigate that. But they have said ACC and insula , both of which Roger lack so that shows they cant be necessary.
@@PhilHalper1
Thank you for the response. So the burden of proof would be on the fish pain denier, since they are making the claim?
@@alittax the burden of proof depends on your prior probabilities I guess and they can be different for different people
At 15min you mention a debate. Is that available to view anywhere?
William Lane Craig will say they feel pain but dont "suffer"? It sounds like b.s. I think if you feel pain then you suffer.
I agree
Excellent work, thank you for this video
you are welcome
The next step is to recognise the moral imperative that flows from realising fishes and other animals are sentient. At the absolute minimum we should not needlessly exploit, harm or kill these beings regardless of how "normal" we have come to think of doing just that at industrial scale in our farms, fisheries, laboratories and elsewhere. Imagine we'd been able to work out that fishes can feel hurt without us having to hurt them :(. And imagine that realising they can feel pain didn't motivate us towards using them even more aggressively as research models :(
My conversation with Mark Solms might be of interest: ruclips.net/video/lcrxdHOVLQQ/видео.html
This has got to be one of the dumbest questions I've EVER heard asked in my entire life right along 'are dogs conscious'.
Why?
Who could honestly think they didn't? You can see a fish suffer.
well these guys think that www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130808123719.htm and in science we need to counter their arguments and not just say well its obvious
@@PhilHalper1thanks
I was tought as a young child that fish don't feel pain, a foolish way to think. I believe we need nutrients to survive but I would want to make it as peaceful as possible.
Interesting. But pain is a human word and the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. The words we use to describe reality is not reality. Maybe they are right, and I don’t doubt other species having an inner experience, but I think they are interpreting too much. Is what we call pain descriptive too this system that is there to protect the individual animal from harm? Maybe it has other functions too but that one seems pretty obvious. What is it like to be a fish? We don’t know that anymore than about being a bat.
I’m not arguing for doing whatever one wants to other living beings. I’m just saying to me these people are interpreting this from a very human centric point and making assumptions.
I could equally say I don't know what it's like to be you so I don't know that you feel pain
@@PhilHalper1 well if you wanna go all the way, all "you" know is that there is an experience happening. Maybe its inside your own head and the rest doen't really exist. Sure. Thats also possible.
But to keep it to what I understood was the point of your video. As a human you of course have a very good idea of how other humans work, if nothing else, on the basis of yourself. You have no idea if a concept like pain, which exist for us with a definition, exists for them in the same way. If they didn't have an alarm system they would die out, but is that pain as we experience, or at least understand pain. These people are describing something and thinking about it in the terms of being a human superimposed onto a fish. Thats what it sounds to me when they are describing their findings. The words describing reality is not reality.
My interest is consciousness and in that sense I find the video interesting.
@@thobraa People tend to think that humans are so special. We're animals, too. There's no good reason to think that pain would be experienced so differently in other species who are so biologically similar to ourselves. Fishes also have far greater mental capability than most people realize. They should certainly be given the benefit of any doubt that they can physically and mentally suffer pain in ways that matter, as the scientific evidence indicates.
@@maryfinelli9390 it’s not really a point I disagree with. Rather I’m saying that they are making assumptions based on concepts that are human,. Getting away from one room it usually prefers to another because of pain killers means that it indicates that the animal feels pain. Is this pain as we understand it? It is obviously a system of survival but from there to pain is a leap for me. How can we imagine being a fish? I cannot ask the fish. I can ask other humans l. I can imagine a whole lot of things my cat does and create human stories from it, but I really have no idea what it’s like to be a cat. I strongly believe it’s capable of feeling pain that is similar to us. But I can’t ask it. I have no idea what it’s like. With fish the leap is much larger. I would love to know at what level this pain, as we know it, how developed an animal must be to feel pain. Because this thing I imagine must be very primitive, in order to help all of our ancestoral species stay alive. Is/was there something proto-pain?
It has nothing to do with me saying it’s ok to be cruel to living beings. Whether it’s animals in the water, on land or in air. I just don’t think these guys have proven that what we call pain is the reason for the behavior they saw. An example is industrial fish farming, i think it sucks and also that the fish definitely wants to get away, they get diseases etc but i don’t know if it’s pain.
I ramble :) sorry about that.
Well done. Very convincing but seriously flawed. The generic statement "fish feel pain' is meaningless.
eh?
what do you call a fish with no "i"'s?
ouch!
aren't humans weird.
Several species of fish that live in underground streams/bodies of water have no eyes.
Good video. Go Vegan
More like go humane, considering the entire circle of life is based on consumption of other animals / plant life. Lions don't care about pain when they are eating prey.
@prodtr3v Do you think we should based our behaviors on lions ?
@@cultofscriabin9547 I do not, but we have control. I am fully for harvesting meat, but why not do it in a less harmful way?
I’m going chip shop and will ponder this while I’m feasting on battered cod and mushy peas… but should I be worried about the peas felt pain or just enjoy them
no i dont see any evidence peas feel pain
Are crocodiles wrong for eating fish to survive.. we all know that animals feel pain but if I’m hungry enough I’ll eat YOU
they don't know any better, we do.