Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill: Making a Motor Mount & Installing a 10 HP Motor
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- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2022
- Lucas Horizontal Boring Mill: Making a Motor Mount & Installing a 10 HP Motor
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"It was in my pile of motors..." 😂 Thanks, Keith.
I hate my pile of motors- takes up a lot of room, and I rarely have what I need for a project (usually replacing dead/incorrect motors).
the Giant Machinist Square Reveal was one of the highlights of the channel.
I’d love to see that old motor in a museum, even if it doesn’t work. We had a big motor for the street elevator in the building my lab was. We used that for many years - DC too!. That was almost two feet by two feet with a shaft that was about three inches thick. The connector panel mounted at the back was made from two inch slate. The gear was two and a half feet in diameter, four inch wide teeth.
Or maybe give it to someone with nothing better to do that has the ability to restore it to running condition.
@@tsmartin it would have to be a shop that does motors. You can’t really rewind a motor by hand.
You can see a nice collection of big old motors at the San Antonio Museum of Science and Technology.
@@tpobrienjr I’d like to see collections spread around the country. Most of us will never get to San Antonio.
The elevator motor sounds intense and immense! Thanks, Mel, and I think you have a good idea for the destiny of that motor. It would be a shame if it was erased by smelting. If a mint sports car is sitting parked with a blown engine, it still looks good! :-0
I, along with most of your viewers, share your anguish for not using the beautiful, old-timey GE motor. But...you gave it your best shot, so good on you!
I'm a retired machinist. Ran a Lucas 3-inch spindle during my apprenticeship. Went on later to run a 8-inch skoda floor model machining Forging Press frames and other misc. over the years. Lucas was weird wrong-handed compared to other boring mills.
That looks like the ideal machine to clean up the steam stoker!
The speed of an AC motor is not set by the voltage but is the frequency x the number of poles. Running a 440V motor at 220V will make it run hot as it will draw more current.
Low voltage will affect the speed because it allows the motor to have higher than normal slip between the synchronous rotating magnetic field and the induced magnetic field in the rotor. This is also the reason for the higher amperage it will draw.
@@jimrankin2583 does it affect the flux capacitor 😬 joking of course 😆
@@jimrankin2583 Takes me back to the rotating machines lectures at uni some nearly 50 years ago.
That old motor was made in the GE plant that is about two miles from my house. Your band saw and radial drill bring back some memories. Bob Auer
This episode reminded me of my apprenticeship in a heat exchanger shop. I had a Marvel bandsaw and radial drill about the same size as Keith's, and I spent many hours fabbing up large equipment. The Marvel & Radial drill could process a tremendous amount of steel in a shift. I would weld up to about 20-30 pieces of 3/4" exchanger tubing together at one end (to keep them from spinning) and cut them to length with the Marvel in one pass. I can recall drilling 60" diameter tubesheets with about 3000 3/4" tube holes each; they would take days to do. Each hole would have to be drilled, reamed, and grooved and there was a quick-change adapter that could change from drill bit to reamer to grooving tool without powering off the drill. It worked similar to an air coupler. I'm sure that would be prohibited today or at least changing bits under power.. We also had a couple of large milling machines and a giant lathe in the shop. The lathe had a through-spindle hole big enough to put a piece of 6" pipe through it, and a swing of about 28". We would actually turn 24" heat exchanger bundles to line up the baffle plates. A bundle that size would weigh a couple of tons, and we turned it at about 20 RPM.
Later I worked in a more conventional shop and all the machinery seemed tiny. Good memories.
That would be fascinating to see! Did you drill and ream each hole before moving on to the next hole to drill?
There was an elevator in The Pioneer Building in Downtown Saint Paul. Open cage type; like riding in a jail cell except it was highly polished and the operator was a nice guy who was "In Charge." I'll bet one of those biggie motors was somewhere up high in "the cupola." Good times!
I’m glad you’re using an older motor
You have some amazing machines Keith! That huge drill is something new. I have never seen anything like that before!
What a shame about the old motor though... I hope you keep hold of it just in case you ever change your mind about using it in the future.
Rebuilding that motor would have been hard, I’m sure, but man what a great video/video series it would have made. Maybe a collaboration with another channel that does that kind of thing.
Eh, not hard, but expensive. Copper, much like diamonds is being heavily up-priced now by thieves in power. The actual operation itself is rather simple, it's only windings (seriously, easy, go look up a 'how it's made' video on motor windings) and keeping track of what you're winding where, and making sure your leads terminate properly (majorly sucks having to unwind a previous section if you messed it up). Source: I've like 4 big motors repaired under my belt now, and the cost of the copper windings is what's killing me. Fixing an ancient unit is cost prohibitive.
Yet another marvelous video. Really enjoyed this classical motor hook-up. Can't wait to see this machine in action.
i've got a friend who's got a bunch of those big ancient motors sitting in his shop . they're monsters
Kieth
during my apprenticeship ( 5 years) I spent 1 year in the stator/armature winding shop. this refers to both 3ph ac and dc motors Arthur my mentor then gave me a 5 hp Royce dc motor to rewind , ok I strippd it and noted the details , I asked him to check my work he got out his winding book and compared it to his , it was OK but he then referred me to the page heading 5hp -25 hp Royce , he then explained they are all 25 hp but when it was purchased new the store man stamped the name plate for the order . that why the old motors were on the big side. but wait this caused problems when the machines were updated to 3 phase ac 440v the drawing office looked at the job ,its got a 5 hp motor on it so just replace it with a 5 hp ac one , it would not run idle , they asked us to test the new motor its ok , with a smile on Arthur's face he informed them it ( the DC ) could be a 25 hp one . so its a case of caveat emptor with old 1900 era motor name plates
The HBM is my favorite machine it is used more than most realized once you start using it
*- I understand the budget issue, Keith.&
*- It sure would be interesting to have seen the shaft and bearing, and wiring rebuild.*
Love watching you bring these beasts back to life. The history behind these machines is so rich. If only they could talk. They'd probably cuss just like the guys that used them.
Enjoyed the video, I ran a slightly newer one for years. Loved that machine, it was my baby.
Mr. Rucker, if tap handles hurt you hands, we came up with a quick and semi comfortable idea, get you some surgical tubing or even soft gas/ heater hose that will push up on handles, takes alot of stress off your hands, know you said you had surgery on hands recently and hope that helps!!!
Very nice retro fit Keith. Ready to see that thing make some chips man.
Can't wait to see what the first job on this will be.
Been looking forward to seeing this HBM come to life for a long time. Be nice to have a tailstock.
Sad to think you weren't going to use the original motor but when you showed us it's problems I agree that you made the right decision!
You absolutely made the right decision.
Just a friendly idea. When you are working by yourself if you were to hang an appropriate sized chain fall (small as possible while having the capacity) to the hook of your engine hoist (provided you had the head room) you could make the major moves with the hydraulics of the hoist to get close then when at the load you can use the chain fall for the micro positioning while seeing and lining up the material. More fine control and you can work while standing out at the load you are trying to set.
That is brilliant. Well done!
The best idea I've seen follows this up. Have a second, much smaller 'leaver hoist' connected to your chainfall so you can use it to control the angle of a lift to get something into position. (Dosen't count for single point lifts like this, but there are a lot of places were an uneven lift has to be done or avoided.)
@@ElectraFlarefire yep…. I have used that for installing lifting attachments to the first stage concrete sections of the Benicia Martinez Bridge deep water footings. 1800ton concrete segments set “over” 8 each 6ft dia piles. The lifting attachments were plate weldments bolted to the footing that used a 14” dia pin to connect the lifting eye. To push and pull that pin there was a hydraulic cylinder off to one side that made them not hang level when being installed. We used a come-a-long to level the load when installing over the anchor bolts in the concrete footing. Would include a photo but no way on RUclips.
@@davidruss7702 Only seen that method used for small things, like assembling milling machines and engines into cars. Few hundred kilo lifts.
That is an impressive use of the same idea indeed!
This reminds me of what I did to my Cincinnati Monoset . The older Monosets had a 1/3 hp
motor and very much under powered for fluteing chips out on carbide end mills. I changed out the motor for a 3/4 hp three phase motor. With my phase converter it would cut hp to 1/2 hp . I had to do some fitting and change the heaters in the magnet start . Most shops change their machines over. The new style Monosets have a 1/2 hp motor when they come new .
Good Morning everyone
morning dude! ne uk
Nice work!
Thanks for sharing 👍
Thanks for sharing !
That bandsaw is excellent! Power feed. Nice.
Thanks for sharing
Paint your new motor with black (or other color) Hammerite Paint. I think that would help keep the old timey feel to it. Just a suggestion. Loved the video, Kieth! Thank You! Yes, Subbed.
great fabrication.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀
Thank you this will be great.
Hi Keith It will be nice to see the old HBM back in action.
This comment is for the YT logarithm.. Well done Keith..
Nice job
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
This was kind of fun to watch. I went though basically the same exercise about a year ago when I swapped in a 10hp single phase motor on my lathe.
I'll echo what others here have said. Don't scrap the old motor. Either shelf it or find someone else who might want it. Very few of those left.
That drill press is incredibly awesome.
Talking about replacing a old motor with a new modern one pulls out the new one and it still older than me 🤣🤣
If ya need more power transfer just make a five slot pulley for the machine. Id put the old motor together and set it up on a shelf for display .
good job keith
It's amazing doesn't matter how big the shop is we can always do with more.
nice video, like most jobs it's step by step.
I have quite an assortment of sizes of older Heimann transfer screws. They sit in one of my tool boxes sometimes for years on end. But when you need them, nothing else will work.
Love the bandsaw. Nice to see some sharp drills. ha!
Nice video, as always. Looks like as many as six grooves at 29.58 ...
Keith .Fix that motor with new Oil Lite bearings a Bearing supply probly can supply the right ones . I fixed my K.T. Band saw motor years ago and it's still going strong just sleeve the shaft DONE DID.
I’m probably not the only one who’s going to say this; but I’d keep the old motor in storage. The next owner might want to run it on 440, or to shell out for a rewinding. I can see a museum doing this. From an aesthetic and historical position it makes a big difference-especially with it being an exposed motor.
Ye, I was thinking the same thing, probably not in Keith’s lifetime but down the road a museum might want a fine example of a boring mill and the original motor, no matter what shape it’s in, would be a huge bonus.
You sure are a busy fella Keith.
My experience of small to large pulleys is that they can slip after a while when the drive end polishes up to a mirror finish. In my old 1930's engineering encyclopaedia there is a section to cover this issue by using wooden (teak) pulleys cross grain where the grain acts like bamboo shoots remaining sharp. Soft start with a VFD is also an option. That said a machine like this has no real load on start-up making problems less likely.
I recall a sticky spray product that used to be available to spray on belts to eliminate slip. Not sure if a similar product is still marketed.
@@ellieprice363 I think that was belt dressing spray, used for flat belts rather than V belts, but I stand to be corrected.
@@johnbewick6357 I think that’s correct but it could probably be used on slipping V belts if still available. If V belts are slipping they’re either very worn, not properly tensioned, or too few belts for the load. A little brake fluid on worn belts will often stop the squealing and slipping until they can be replaced.
They sell this for automotive belts-or they did a couple of years ago when I bought some.
We sell a sticky belt dressing at Deere it greatly increases the torque the belts can provide.
Interesting video
Good accurate info on the old motor, Just last year I had a 5hp newmann 3ph 2 speed motor new ball bearings and replace all 6 leads for a little over $300. the cost to repair that antique motor would easily double that and may be closer to triple with the cost of copper now days.
I have run several Lucas HBM. Most machinists say the controls are on the wrong side. I found it much easier to use my stronger right arm to load tooling.
I don't see an outboard spindle support. That is great for long bores. I also spent a lot of time running DeVliegs. All HBM's are plain fun to run and are very versatile.
Would love to visit your shop sometime. Great videos. Thanks
Keith on your battery drill tighten chuck turn back until it klicks it should hold better a friend of mine told me that it works keep up good work
Very interesting, and a lesson in changes over the years in what it takes to develop an amount of power. I recall the shops I saw (and was around in my Ordnance officer days), and a lot of what you do reminds me of what we did in those days. Actually, of course, except during training so we'd know what we were seeing, as a commissioned officer i didn't get to play with the machines, just watch others and be sure they were doing right. Oh well. really like your channel.
In re this machine - you need to salvage the data plate off the old motor and tack it up somewhere in the shop as a souvenir.
Nice machine, to bad you were unable to use the original motor. Got to admit they are very cool looking. But the newer motor will be much more efficient. Thanks for sharing.
Always enjoy your projects Keith, thanks! I just went through the expense of having the field rewound on a 213 frame motor that someone had done the same 3 wire 440 only rewind job. Like a fool I didn't ask up front the cost and just about fell over when I was handed the bill so you made the correct decision monetarily! I paid 3 times more than a new motor of the same rpm and horsepower would have cost, had one that fits this machine been available. Live and learn.
I guess there aren't many doing rewinds now - cheaper to buy new :(
@@millomweb There are plenty of rewind shops around for big motors (and REALLY big motors) where rewinding makes sense, but for anything less than maybe 50 or 100HP the labor to tear the old motor down, clean it up and rebuild it, and rewind it, just doesn't make sense. It doesn't help that the cost of copper in the US is about the same as gold. It's two or three times (at least) as much work to rebuild an old motor compared to building a new motor on a production line, so in many cases it does make a lot more sense to buy a new motor.
The 24" machinists square was comedy gold!
I was thinking "He's going to have to clamp a flat bar to the pulley and reference off that or something... maybe he's got a special tool for this." then Keith just slips off camera and re-appears holding a Machinists square about the size of his torso... so not special per se, but unusual and appropriate to the job.
A cartenter square would've worked fine. :-) But you're right, it's a nice square.
I think that 24 inch “machinist” square is commonly known as a “carpenter” square. If so it should be plenty adequate for aligning those pulleys. The smaller pulley will double the motor torque so it should produce more power than the original.
@@ellieprice363 No, the original motor had half the rpm and double the torque. The same power.
@@LambertZero Thanks for clarifying the way that works. I wasn’t sure how the speed change affected the horsepower. I suppose if the speed had remained the same the torque would double. Just another notch in my learning curve.
@@ellieprice363 No machinist squares have a rectangular stock base, and a thinner leg. Carpenter squares are a single piece.
Keith, make sure you salvage the brass plate off that old motor! Thanks for the great content
At 6:04 - MAN, look at all the oilers! I count 8 in this shot alone.
I kinda chuckled at that too, seems with a little plumbing and one bigger oiler he could have a surplus of small oilers.
Good idea to leave a few drive belts off. Belts drive by friction and sap power. Modern polyarimide belts last forever compared to the cotton and rubber of early 20th century.
I’ve got a 25hp Baldor running my RPC… it came with an adjustable motor mount that is just sitting on the floor - would trade for it if you wanted to throw in some feet to replace the mount to get it off the floor
When you look for a belt, look at the the joined version where the 3 belts are made as one. You will have less issues then getting 3 matched length belts and I think they drive better.
That was a real square you just show us. I have never seen any thing like that before. Is there any tool you don't have in your shop. Great job. Can't wait to see this machine working.
Hi Keith, the easiest fix for this motor is probably add a VFD to it 220/208 to 480, they are now very cheap and also gives the option of speed control. bushings seem to last for a very long time, usually they just need a good cleaning and lube.
Rich
A VFD would kill that vintage motor, as it is not rated for VFD use. You would get current generated in the rotor that would try to cross to the housing and take out the bearings in short order
You made the right choice with the motor. Sure, you could have done something with the shaft. Sure, you could have made new sleeve bearings. Sure, a good motor shop could have brought out the leads (if it was rewound for dual voltage) and re-dipped the motor. (the motor most likely needs to be re-dipped).
Now, if you were restoring this for the Smithsonian, your decision process would have been different. But, this machine is going back to work. Plus, with a more modern motor, you may have VFD options too.
In my motor shop,customers would request I only bring out 3 wires so their people could not make a mistake hooking it up.Especially a local feed mill.
Good job heavy stuff to work with like how you made the two brackets to mount the new motor to the base. Many moons ago I had to remove a motor from a industrial laundry that had the biggest washing machines you could ever think of, I had the motor in my panel truck to bring to the electric motor builder had it strapped down in the center of the truck now,driving stop at a traffic light normal speed and the straps broke that had the motor tied down it slid forward and hit my drivers seat ripped it out of the bolts and crushed me into the steering wheel. Fire Dept had to get me out of the truck. I think it was a 90 horse power electric motor. Never will I forget that.
Keith, Don’t through the old motor away! Your not going to live forever and the next curator of this machine might want to repair the old motor. It is really cool and adds tremendously to the vintage machine you have here. Looks like a great temporary fix to using this machine.
It would be great to see how you measure the belts. I am sure it is easy but I don't know how.
To be honest, Keith. Looking at that motor mount on the machine. I question if that motor actually is original to that machine. While the build is period and matches, I have a hunch that the motor was swapped in at some point and adapted. I say that due to the rewind, the shim stock sleeve for the drive pulley, and several other small details.
Upgrading to a modern motor was 100% the right move.
Motor brackets looked to be arc welded, and the plate was mounted with grade-marked bolts. Neither would have been likely before about 1940 at the earliest. That machine is clearly designed so it could have been run from an overhead line shaft if it had a flat belt pulley. The question is if it came from the factory with the V belt pulley. I suspect it could have. In that case I'd bet the motor was originally mounted on the floor behind the machine. I'm guessing that at some time in the 1950s or 1960s the motor mounting was redone.
You are fortunate to have such a range of center punchs.
by "fortunate" you mean he went out a bought them, they didn't just magically appear out of nowhere
A good quality set of transfter punches from 1/16 “ to 1” by 64ths costs $400-500, depending on source. Anyone doing the general type of work Keith does can justify the cost of a set quickly.
nice job, but wish you would get brush for brushing chips off. great job
adding a comment to help the algorithm
i see a lot of oilers on this old boring mill . I never have seen so many oliers in one spot
In case you don't have enough power transfer theres always a new project with a 5 groove pulley fabrication in the queue!
Love watching your videos. Curious, why couldn’t you just rotate the large plate 90 degrees? It looks long enough to reach the pulley.
Another great video! Smart move on replacing the old motor, considering your situation. Thank you for showing the old motor, maybe somewhere there is someone who could use it (or some of its parts) to upgrade a static display or even as part of a "cost is no object" type restoration. I'm sure that you know how to "spread the word" before actually scrapping it.
Sure hope you don't run into any more 'jake leg' repairs inside. Doing good so far. Glad to see it getting some attention.
im sure your workshop is a Tardis.... every time you turn around there is another honking great machine lurking in a corner!
You can have your apprentice strip out the old copper windings from the motor (and maybe a few others you have sitting around that are destined for the junk heap) and fire up your furnace, add some tin and make bronze ingots.
Shame about the old motor. About the voltage problem, used to work in a place that had a lot of odd equipment, read expensive, sourced from different places some even used 550 volts hey don't AK me why another of motors were odd frames so we just mounted a small transformer for the machine and stepped up or down to what we needed. Love the videos keep up the good work.
I'm sure you are aware that there are various qualities of V belts available and I can recommend Gates Quad Power or the latest version that should compensate well for the omission of the original 5No. 1900's V belts. They will be available from your local belt and bearing supplier.
My Great Grandfather was James Lewis Lucas. He and my Grandfather were machine tool rebuilders in Bridgeport, CT.. J.L. Lucas and Sons. (The other son, my Great Uncle, died at an early age). No relation to Henry Lucas, who manufactured this machine tool in Ohio.
Some would want that old motor if nothing else but an art display. It has a beautiful industrial look to it.
At the very least, salvage the data plate ‘cause it’s a beauty and could be kept on the machine as historical record.
Hiya Keith
That original motor is a monster. Maybe you can split the casing on it or somthing and make it into a sort of cover for new motor. For appearance sake, given the new motor is quite visible. Seems a shame to scrap it.
I think I wouldn't be so concerned with fewer belt grooves if you hadn't already reduced the drive pulley diameter as well. The combination condition might cause you some slippage during high demand conditions. Might be able to compensate by running a longer belt set and adding an idler on the slack side. This would give you additional contact. Don't overlook getting matched belt set instead of ordering individual belts of the same size. When they're that big and not a matched set, the lengths vary quite a bit and you end up with the shortest belt hogging all the work.
Good morning 2 u 2 from Germany
Interesting. While the motor may well have been original to the machine, I'm almost positive that motor mount was not. The brackets appear to have been arc welded, which is very unlikely in the 1918 date range. Also that 3/4" plate was mounted with grade-marked bolts, and I'm not sure that those were in common use before the 1950s or 1960s. I suspect originally the motor was mounted on the floor rather than physically to the machine frame.
Personally I think I'd have simplified the new mounting by losing the 3/4" plate and making the two bars a couple of inches longer, and mounting them directly to the two support brackets. That way I wouldn't have had a crooked plate on the machine. But of course what Keith did works just fine.
Yes, that crooked plate doesn’t look like the normal 1900’s quality of work. Someone has been playing around in there and it has the smell of some under qualified apprentice showing why they should always have their work ok’d.
You might what to confirm what other creators on youtube have said: Interactions(Comments/likes) no longer help the channel, only watchtime..
So you should maybe be encouraging people to watch to the end of your video without skipping parts. Though subscribing so they can watch it does help with that.
Sell it don't scrap it. The are a lot of great restorers out there. Perhaps some modern bearings and some custom machining could restore the old beauty.
PET THE DOGS AND CATS, GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO, SEE YOU NEXT TIME...