Gavin, this is a line of thinking that I've used intuitively for years. As a classical musician with degrees in composition and conducting, I've often said that no plausible naturalistic explanation of this world can possibly account for the existence of Bach's St. Matthew Passion. I marvel at the fact that, from a physical perspective, music is nothing more than the speeding up and slowing down of waves of air against our eardrum, and yet it has the power to elicit wonder, awe, sadness, poignancy, fear, etc. I think somewhere in Screwtape Letters, Lewis has the demons refer to music as vibrations that are meaningless to them. I'm very interested to see where you go with this, and the other topics you're investigating!
Very interesting! I have often heard professional musicians make an appeal like this, which is confirming of how I am thinking about it a non-musician. Yes, I also recall a passage in Screwtape in which the demons talk about how both silence and music are the stuff of heaven, whereas mere "noise" is the stuff of hell. Interesting.
Great comment!! Music touched me SO DEEPLY, back in the early Nineties, and had a huge impact on my discovery of the Creator. "Music induces in us, a sense of the infinite and the contemplation of the invisible" ( Victor LaPrade).
I have often experienced this in actually playing an instrument in that sometimes (and not always) the whole physical and mental process of playing and creating sound literally touches or reflects something profound beyond human experience.
Gavin, thanks for your video. As a orchestral musician I can so relate to what your are saying. I experience this transcendence all the time at work. When we play Bach, Handel, Mozart, Mahler, Bruckner and so many others I can’t help but think that it’s so obvious that music is a gift from God that transports, renews and even heals! Music does point to God Himself, absolutely!
This touched me in a way that I was not expecting... Thank you so much for your content, it has been almoast a year since I was born again in Christ, and your channel has been guiding me ever since Thanks Forgive me for my english...I'm from Brazi
“There is the Music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Therefore there must be God. You either see this one or you don’t.” - Kreeft and Tacelli from Twenty Arguments for the Existence of God
After plunging into the classical arguments for God's existence, I found some very compelling and others not as much. Overall, they managed to convince me, together with further personal experience and through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, to become a Christian again. Then I thought that music could be something that may be attributed to a transcendent beauty. But your video is the first time that I've actually discovered anything that supported my suspicion, so thank you for this
I'm liking your videos. Very thoughtful and well considered. With this one, I probably would have given it a different title, since the goal wasn't to prove that God exists via music, but to show (and hopefully help us experience) that the awe we feel through music is legitimised in a theistic worldview. I certainly experienced that transcendence with the second piece played, and the loss that comes from trying to interpret without my theistic lenses on.
Interesting video! In my own experience, the moment that God planted a small seed in my heart that would eventually (six years later) culminate in my conversion is when I experienced the overwhelming beauty of St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican. It's a kind of beauty that shouldn't even be possible from an earthly perspective. Arguments from aesthetics, while obviously not definite proofs, are nonetheless very powerful to those who have experienced that kind of transcendent beauty. Although I know you're not a Catholic like myself, Pope Francis actually talks a lot the "Via Pulchritudinous" or "Way of Beauty" as a powerful means of introducing the gospel to people. That's definitely been true in my own life.
Math works. Music "works." Funny how these things all work. Harmony, tension, resolution, rapture. It gloriously connects and "takes" us places. Thanks, brother. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks Rob! Yeah, I often think of math and music together in this connection, too. They are so different, and yet both seem to have a curious power to them.
As a musician myself this is an amazing argument, allthough I'm not convinced... Because your camera is tilted... I can't trust a man with a Dutch angle...
Honestly I was about to stop watching the video cause I couldn't understand most of the terminology, it was a little confusing to me personally. But that last analogy you used for music as a light and a hope is just awesome! The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Psalm 19:1
Paul and Silas did what while in Prison? Christians sing, Muslims don’t. The British at football matches sing and it is wonderful. A scientist whom I forget said that his access to the transcendent is thru music. Did Francis Schaeffer address music?
"People experience a sense of transcendence in music." Some people evidently do. And doubtless some other people *say* they do, so their sophisticated friends won't shun them. There's quite a bit of music that I enjoy enough to listen to it voluntarily. Certain pieces of music can trigger in me an urge to march, or to dance, or to relax. I've sometimes been able to stay focused on a particular piece of music for five minutes or more. But I suspect none of these experiences counts as transcendence. If that's correct, it seems a deeply satisfying experience has been denied to me. I wonder if there's a theistic explanation for that. Apologies for the long windup, but here, finally, is my question: Do you know of any reliable studies indicating what fraction of the population can experience a sense of transcendence in music?
The Chitauri are the only ones who hold the sacred knowledge of the multiverse.. they havnt been back to earth in over 30 000 years. But we know the Gods that teamed up to create everything have moved forward to other things and we are not of interest anymore
I’ve never understood how RUclips recommended videos.... But I’m glad it recommended this one... It’s unintentionally hilarious 😆 I love the current desperation of RUclips apologists.... You will grasp at any straw to try to validate your delusional beliefs... It’s sad in the most pathetic way
I truly do not understand people like you, Instead on engaging with the ideas presented or offering responses and rebuttals you resort to low Ad hominem responses by calling Dr Gavin pathetic and delusional …what a pity!
@@Roniyeeeagreed. Instead of explaining why this was a straw man he just resorted to mockery. Truly disappointing. It is important to note that this is not the argument that theism hinges on, it is merely just an interesting observation that can be made and strengthens the case for theism as whole. This is a... "side argument", if you will, much like the ontological argument. Most of the arguments for theism aren't meant to stand on their own two feet, save perhaps for the cosmological and moral arguments, of which there are a multitude. The hundreds of arguments for theism all work together to make someone think: maybe there is something to this.
@@Roniyeeethis argument, I also feel, is something that poses a potential question to naturalism. So, it can't as easily be dismissed as the OP did. I also don't understand how people like the OP can look at more powerful arguments for God, like the big 3(Cosmological, maybe Kalam or Contingency variations, Teleological and Moral) and just swat them away.
Gavin, this is a line of thinking that I've used intuitively for years. As a classical musician with degrees in composition and conducting, I've often said that no plausible naturalistic explanation of this world can possibly account for the existence of Bach's St. Matthew Passion.
I marvel at the fact that, from a physical perspective, music is nothing more than the speeding up and slowing down of waves of air against our eardrum, and yet it has the power to elicit wonder, awe, sadness, poignancy, fear, etc. I think somewhere in Screwtape Letters, Lewis has the demons refer to music as vibrations that are meaningless to them.
I'm very interested to see where you go with this, and the other topics you're investigating!
Very interesting! I have often heard professional musicians make an appeal like this, which is confirming of how I am thinking about it a non-musician. Yes, I also recall a passage in Screwtape in which the demons talk about how both silence and music are the stuff of heaven, whereas mere "noise" is the stuff of hell. Interesting.
Great comment!! Music touched me SO DEEPLY, back in the early Nineties, and had a huge impact on my discovery of the Creator. "Music induces in us, a sense of the infinite and the contemplation of the invisible" ( Victor LaPrade).
I have often experienced this in actually playing an instrument in that sometimes (and not always) the whole physical and mental process of playing and creating sound literally touches or reflects something profound beyond human experience.
Interesting! I wonder if this is a common experience for musicians.
Gavin, thanks for your video. As a orchestral musician I can so relate to what your are saying. I experience this transcendence all the time at work. When we play Bach, Handel, Mozart, Mahler, Bruckner and so many others I can’t help but think that it’s so obvious that music is a gift from God that transports, renews and even heals! Music does point to God Himself, absolutely!
This touched me in a way that I was not expecting...
Thank you so much for your content, it has been almoast a year since I was born again in Christ, and your channel has been guiding me ever since
Thanks
Forgive me for my english...I'm from Brazi
You're so welcome! God bless you!
“There is the Music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Therefore there must be God. You either see this one or you don’t.” - Kreeft and Tacelli from Twenty Arguments for the Existence of God
Nice quote Jackson! Here's one of my favorites: "Music can name the unnameable, and communicate the unknowable" (Leonard Bernstein).
There is the music of CardiB...
Therefore there is no god..
See how that works??
@@chrisgreen8803 Actually. all that proves is that her " music" proves that there is a devil.
@@jamestrotter3162
Wait...
So good music proves god
Bad music proves the devil?
@@chrisgreen8803 God good, devil bad.
When I listen to Bach or Palestrina I can't help but praise and worship God. Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring comes to mind.
You aptly give expression thru your short lecture to many of our thoughts about music and mathematics. Well done!
After plunging into the classical arguments for God's existence, I found some very compelling and others not as much. Overall, they managed to convince me, together with further personal experience and through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, to become a Christian again. Then I thought that music could be something that may be attributed to a transcendent beauty. But your video is the first time that I've actually discovered anything that supported my suspicion, so thank you for this
I'm liking your videos. Very thoughtful and well considered. With this one, I probably would have given it a different title, since the goal wasn't to prove that God exists via music, but to show (and hopefully help us experience) that the awe we feel through music is legitimised in a theistic worldview. I certainly experienced that transcendence with the second piece played, and the loss that comes from trying to interpret without my theistic lenses on.
Thanks for the good comment, Ryan. Glad to hear the video connected in some way.
I found some GREAT stuff in your "Christianese" playlist Ryan! Thanks for putting that together!
Such an interesting and well-spoken argument. I would never have been able to articulate that, but it rings true to my experience and learning!
Really good job, thank you so much.
Interesting video! In my own experience, the moment that God planted a small seed in my heart that would eventually (six years later) culminate in my conversion is when I experienced the overwhelming beauty of St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican. It's a kind of beauty that shouldn't even be possible from an earthly perspective.
Arguments from aesthetics, while obviously not definite proofs, are nonetheless very powerful to those who have experienced that kind of transcendent beauty. Although I know you're not a Catholic like myself, Pope Francis actually talks a lot the "Via Pulchritudinous" or "Way of Beauty" as a powerful means of introducing the gospel to people. That's definitely been true in my own life.
great insight, thanks Jack!
Oh this is spot on and the analogy at the is very helpful. Thank you Gavin!
Thanks Mina!
Math works. Music "works." Funny how these things all work. Harmony, tension, resolution, rapture. It gloriously connects and "takes" us places. Thanks, brother. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks Rob! Yeah, I often think of math and music together in this connection, too. They are so different, and yet both seem to have a curious power to them.
What recording of Prelude in C major did you use? It was quite nice.
This is all very philosophical...
I find the mathematical proof of music is even more compelling!
In the beginning , God created ROCK!
As a musician myself this is an amazing argument, allthough I'm not convinced...
Because your camera is tilted...
I can't trust a man with a Dutch angle...
Honestly I was about to stop watching the video cause I couldn't understand most of the terminology, it was a little confusing to me personally. But that last analogy you used for music as a light and a hope is just awesome!
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Psalm 19:1
Paul and Silas did what while in Prison? Christians sing, Muslims don’t. The British at football matches sing and it is wonderful. A scientist whom I forget said that his access to the transcendent is thru music. Did Francis Schaeffer address music?
I'll bet Tolkien and Lewis had this very conversation one day, and both decided to put it into their fictional worlds. 😂
"People experience a sense of transcendence in music." Some people evidently do. And doubtless some other people *say* they do, so their sophisticated friends won't shun them.
There's quite a bit of music that I enjoy enough to listen to it voluntarily. Certain pieces of music can trigger in me an urge to march, or to dance, or to relax. I've sometimes been able to stay focused on a particular piece of music for five minutes or more.
But I suspect none of these experiences counts as transcendence. If that's correct, it seems a deeply satisfying experience has been denied to me. I wonder if there's a theistic explanation for that.
Apologies for the long windup, but here, finally, is my question: Do you know of any reliable studies indicating what fraction of the population can experience a sense of transcendence in music?
The Chitauri are the only ones who hold the sacred knowledge of the multiverse.. they havnt been back to earth in over 30 000 years. But we know the Gods that teamed up to create everything have moved forward to other things and we are not of interest anymore
I’ve never understood how RUclips recommended videos....
But I’m glad it recommended this one...
It’s unintentionally hilarious 😆
I love the current desperation of RUclips apologists....
You will grasp at any straw to try to validate your delusional beliefs...
It’s sad in the most pathetic way
I truly do not understand people like you, Instead on engaging with the ideas presented or offering responses and rebuttals you resort to low Ad hominem responses by calling Dr Gavin pathetic and delusional …what a pity!
@@Roniyeeeagreed. Instead of explaining why this was a straw man he just resorted to mockery. Truly disappointing. It is important to note that this is not the argument that theism hinges on, it is merely just an interesting observation that can be made and strengthens the case for theism as whole. This is a... "side argument", if you will, much like the ontological argument. Most of the arguments for theism aren't meant to stand on their own two feet, save perhaps for the cosmological and moral arguments, of which there are a multitude. The hundreds of arguments for theism all work together to make someone think: maybe there is something to this.
@@Roniyeeethis argument, I also feel, is something that poses a potential question to naturalism. So, it can't as easily be dismissed as the OP did. I also don't understand how people like the OP can look at more powerful arguments for God, like the big 3(Cosmological, maybe Kalam or Contingency variations, Teleological and Moral) and just swat them away.