Having dozens of Zeff era ZAPCO amps, EQs, etc in my collection, this is painful to see. Similar to PPI being sold to DEI. It hurts to see kids spend their treasure on trash and say "bruh, I just wanna bang".
same as Sound stream they where top level until they sold out. Robert Zeff Started Arc audio and they are the real deal just like his Zapco amps use to be.
@@PoXFreak It was prior to that when they bought PPI (which is coincidentally now owned by Epsilon, the same parent company as Soundstream and Power Acoustic. Directed was always flea market fodder. Their crap worked, but not well and not for long.
If you look at 2:54 one of the legs of the bottom right transformer of the 6 isn’t even attached to the board.. you can see it moving free from the board when he brushes it against his finger!! From a brand new amp from the factory.. WOW!! Would've never expected to see zapco is going down the drain like this!! What a shame!! Awesome video as always and love your content my brotha!! Keep up the awesome work!! This one genuinely hurts in the heart a bit.. 🥺😭😔💔
Don't worry, that was just me lifting the 12v auxiliary wind so that I could power the amp on and off 50 times while looking for the delay timing cap without unnecessary stress to the output mosfets 😁
Unfortunately, it's not just the Turn-On thump that was and is the issue, it is the overall poor build quality and design overall...especially for this price.
I have a small alpine amp for my four mid-high speakers and if I turn on the car instantly, I get a POP, but if I turn on the ignition, a second later, start the car, no pop. Not sure a hundred percent if the same exactly, but thank you for sharing and the detailing. It's inspirational and makes me want to learn more, as much as possible. Take care and nice video. 👍
Eventually when the Deep Bass drops expect the relay to “Chatter “ a lot. Has a customer years ago with a similar type set up driving 2 15” Subs . Complained the amp was bad , it turned out the extreme Bass notes were triggering the relay armature . Just sad 😢….
I gave up on zapco when the DC reference line came out and it had volatile memory for the dsp. Then they launched cheap I-force amps and thats when we started selling Arc Audio.
I'm sure not all the zapco amps are the same either. This is a zapco geaed towards the spl side, hence being an old school generic design being used. Although it would be interesting to see what the 4 channel amps do geared toward SQ.
Wow, you know some major shit regarding all the components inside of an amp and what their functions are and what they do. That's super cool. I'd like to know how and what those things do. Much respect, you have some serious k knowledge in my opinion.
I knew Robert personally. He would not let a "little" audio issue leave the factory. John or one of the other techs would have caught the issue before the amp was boxed. As for the board flex. Where talking about a man that has a 2 ton granite boulder on the side of the production line, he uses to see if his product distorts when heated to operating temperature......product is just ran on top the granite for a day. Measurements are taken to see how much the heatsink, and bottom plates expand and contract. If a man is going to put a amplifier into 3 separate enclosures ( aka Zapco 3 piece amps ) so as to get the best sound. He is not going to have "little" defects leave his shop. As a person that's used/sold/modified Zapco products for over 45 years this is how Zapco used to be: "Hello Zapco. Could I get my product re-silk-screened I painted the amps the colour of the car?" "No problem." "Hello Zapco. Could you put two of your PX equalizers on 1 face plate?" "No problem". They had a flat rate repair charge....never over $65.00. Only product I had to send in for repairs. Was customer damaged PEQ's.
You are so trustworthy in amplifier repairs. Is there any particular reason why you won't take business from outside of the UK? I live in the United States and if I ever have any issues with my amplifiers.I would prefer to send them out to you. Great videos
Not to 2nd guess, but its odd the mute circuit causes a thump. Wonder if something else is awry in that circuit. Leaky coupling cap etc. Wonder if another zap 3k would exhibit the same issue? No argument on the lackluster build quality though, yikes.
This amplifier uses the same circuitry for its delay and muting that I do in my DIY amps. Its sensitive to the DC input voltage as a fixed reference is being used to determine when the relay pulls in (usually a zener) and a fixed RC value. This means that the time it takes to charge changes with input voltage. Additionally, this can potentially cause issues with the relays as the switching time becomes more protracted as the capacitance is increased or the voltage is reduced, leading to a lazy pull-in and potential chatter and arcing. The design works much better when the voltage references for the turn-on thresholds are kept well away from the incoming rail voltage so that the charge waveform is a ramp and not an exponent, usually just using the transistor junctions themselves or a small signal diode if its a fet. Edit: They may have it set up like that to act as a really lazy under-voltage lockout circuit. Voltage too low, relays wont pull in.
What amazes me even thought you have been doing this for some years now is that you know what to look for & how to correct it, i'm completely lost & wouldn't know where to look to find such a problem & an easy fix. I followed your video of the JBL14001 upgrade with no success, runs fine at low volts but then switches on/off continually once above 11.5-12 volts. Need some help with that one.
So many companies these days are riding their reputations built over many years. After the trust has been built, the company decides to go a cheaper direction but keep their previously justified higher prices. We ran into this with our 2022 Honda CR-V and our 2023 Toyota Camry XLE Hybrid. I remember Zapco selling for a premium because they were premium. What a bummer to see them using the cheapo $100 Amazon straight from China pricing in design, but continuing to charge their premium brand price.
How do the Z-AP series compare to these? I have a couple and now I want to pull the covers off and take a good look at the board mounting and transformer windings....😅
Another somewhat nasty thing about these older designs is pretty much no real protection for the switching transistors since they are based on older PWM chips. Sure it will "shut down" but only after its managed to nuke everything downstream. One of the nice features of newer SMPS/amplifier technology is the ability to switch faster and do cycle-by-cycle monitoring to detect faults which allows shutdowns in a matter of a few hundred nanoseconds. This means if something goes wrong it wont blow every single damn transistor that was on at the time of the fault. Car audio stuff really is in dire need of a design overhaul. It would not only make it more reliable, but also potentially cheaper as the designs could be more modular.
I want someone to make an Amp with the best possible components avaliable for each piece without defective design in this range. 3k for 3k watts. Please. Everything is junk for the money. Cheap isn't always wanted. Show me a 3k bass Amp with top shelf components.
Hey Sam it may be time for you to start looking at your own design, I think you got the pre req for sure. Use the audio community to your advantage. Maybe make a amp with more versatility. I'm doing as much R&D on this.
@johnstarks5323 no they use not the best components through the whole design. They always skimp on something, caps, resistors. You see home audio amps costing 50k for 200 watts. Why isn't there that level of quality and craftsmanship in the car audio community.
@@numlockkilla Ok, that Arc audio 4k was $3k, and your examples of $50k amps. The point is You can desire something all day. But if there's not enough demand to justify that expense. corporations won't build it. most companies are smart today, knowing the market is saturated with too many car audio products. we are now in a quantity over quality, a race to the bottom market. & with EV on the horizon, the 12v platform could face extinction.
What do you think about them macrotechs in the back ground? lol I have one running my center channel and my high low subwoofer in my HT! Ive been extremely happy besides the loud fans
My concern is safety, fires and damage cost money. The amount of power involved is just down right deadly not moving. It will be a matter of time when we start to see the budget builds get deadly and the news is all over it and car audio is a new target. Uhh lets hope not, im just starting my biggest build yet...
Not giving zapco a pass here, but the real conundrum is that most users don't have this in depth understanding of amplifier design, and quite frankly there's not enough folks like you pulling back the wool to empower consumers.
dam i spent alot on my zapco z-150.4 II, thought it would be better than skar audio class AB, I will say it does sound good tho but Ill probably have to keep repairing it to make up for it's initial cost
Great Video! Is it possible, that they delayed the pre-amp after the relays, so that the relays won't take damage when the amp is rurned on with a high signal on the input? I don't know if it's a problem, but could it fuse the relay contacts together when turning the amp on with a high signal? Over all sad, to sell this design for so much money.
The signwave from the preamp @ 7:36 looks awful. Is it, or is that a scope artifact? You could use a 12v zener from the RC delay to the base of the the relay on transistor & or a resistor in parallel with the RC cap. Nice work BTW.
There's like 3 or 4 z series. I have a z150.4 lx. The one with the emblem, no crossover, and individual gain pots. Are they all the same crap? I know the ii series came with crossovers.
What a waste of everybody's time, resources and money. I just repainted an OG Bazooka BA1300. I had no idea back in the day that they had water cooling built into the chassis heatsink as an optional upgrade.. trying to find on original one for last 2 weeks.
Truly curious. Could’nt we coat the coils with a non conductive glue to help isolate vibrations?? I get your not gunna flow hot glue or whatever inside the coil but outside?
@@melissathompson7229No, no. That's something completely different. A conformal coated board is simply a clear protective layer over the small components on the circuit board. This is to protect them from moisture. You typically see that on marine applications or circuits used in adverse environments. What we are talking about here is a simple high temperature glue or elastic material that is put on to and around the inductors or coils to stop them from vibrating.
It’s 2024 lads! The amp reviewed as per the serial number visible is 2017 (first four digits is the year of manufacture). This model was out in 2014. I’ve used it then and it was a good amp for its time and I personally got very decent support from Zapco. I think it’s not fair to compare it with current offerings and seems rather biased. Old stock capacitors will depreciate over time causing the pops. That’s a known fact. And humidity (especially for us in the tropics, it’s a pain) does not help the board glue, etc. The model reviewed was a good product for its time. We need to move on to more current offerings.
Thanks for calling out the poor designs and build quality of this one. Is there much that can be done about the board flex? Glue in a long peice of plastic the the heatsink underneath the board?
This flaw is a byproduct of "lego" engineering. You have two separate sections, or modules, of the amplifier that are not properly integrated and thus fail to work properly as a system. The use of delay timers and such is a reflection of just how old and simplistic this design is. The correct approach (and what many modern, high quality amplifiers do) is to have an MCU control the relays and the MCU doesn't engage them until all subsystems have reached a nominal state.
yep I agree, although the only issue with MCU is that when it fails its almost impossible to replace unless the manufacturer stocks surplus spares and is willing to sell them to 3rd party repair centers
@@barevids Yeah. Unfortunately the bane of electronics repair in general. The code for the supervisory MCU isn't anything unique or proprietary - the manufacturers could easily make the image available for download but the high-end manufactures are going to resist that every step of the way. The best option is for the lego OEMs to just standardize it so that it is just another easily replaceable daughtercard. This would be cheaper in the long run but it would require some engineering work... why bother with that when people are still paying premium prices for flawed 20-year old designs?
@@timothyanderson1132To be fair, D4S just comes off as an uber shady company. Fools parting with their money is what D4S is all about. Hopefully you've learned from your mistakes! I know I did! ❤
You might need to be more specific as there's a lot of variation in the xdi series. I've got an xdi 805 and the components are really packed in tight, it's pretty hard to work on.
Yeah the Rockford is absolutely lightyears ahead. A proper bespoke designed amplifier using great technology. However, it's still a stupid amount of money to pay for 3krms when you can just get a Smart 3 Bass which is also superb 😂
That amp won’t be great. It’s literally the same as other 3k Korean amps just with a zapco badge. It just another cookie cutter amp with a different brand and price. Great amps are designed in house and then produced. Now companies pick a price point and pick out colors, heat sinks and try and make as much money as possible. It’s like someone going to a Ford factory and picking interior and paint on a truck and then they let you put whatever “brand” you want on the truck. It’s still a Ford and the same as everyone else’s.
I just realized my facmogu 8808.1 monoblock has the same color pcb and zed board revision #'ing 🤔 totally different than this but sure looks like the same build house
steg k1.2500/5000 cost less money but build quality is much better.. and k 5000 can run without problems 0.5.. running now 3 years 1.2500 without problems… had zapco 2k blown up after 7 months.. put back in place steg..
@@bbfoto7248 the new current ones. I have the 4 channel and 1000 watt mono amplifier, I like them but it's always nice to get the expert opinion from someone like barevids
Hey man i am about to run 8-4500's a guy told me I can run the dd zvl and set all amps to slave could u do something to demonstrate this I do not understand this
Are you using a different brand of amplifier than DD? If so, it looks like you can run up to 10 mono blocks from a single dvl. You would turn down the subsonic and turn up the crossovers on all of your amplifiers. The dvl would then perform both of those functions as well as let you use a single remote Bass knob. The one step you'll need to do is calibrate the gain knob on each of your amplifiers to a set voltage so they are all identical.
My question would be why there's 8k worth of discrete devices and components in what's referred to as a 3k amp. I've watched you repair probably a dozen or more half bridge amps with 6 transformers in the power supply and more than a dozen mosfets in the output section, and they've all been rated for over 5k or more.
I'm sure you could save some money by using inferior, lower rated components and just add more of them to compensate. I don't know if that's the case in this amp, but it could be.
Scale doesn't come across well in the video, the transformers are very tiny here compared to say a 5k+ similar model. This circuit is an older architecture that uses lower current fets so needs more of them. You can make 3krms with just a pair of IGBTs rather than x16 older MOSFETs.
That's really sad, i was planning to buy a pair of Zapco Z-150.4 AP amps. Is there anyone left still producing the highest quality AB class amps that i don't need to apply a bank loan for?
No, just the opposite. It's good to have a lot of different brands competing with each other. That's what keeps prices low. Imagine there was only one brand, they could charge whatever price they felt like charging and you couldn't do anything about it. Car audio today is the best it's ever been.
@@JasonWW2000Curious: What brands are properly priced these days and not just the same Korean/Chinese crap that people pay $60 an amp for and then sell for 10-20x for?
@@orangejjayIt's all personal preference. The amplifiers that I run are Rockford, Kicker, Arc Audio, Focal, Digital Designs and Alpine. I can definitely recommend these brands. If your wanting extremely low cost amps your gonna have to look at a clone design. A few of the better brands off the top of my head are Stinger, Recoil, Skar and the JP D4S amps. I don't know what your budget is, but buying an amp second hand is a great way to save money.
For this expensive of an Amp it should not be a cookie cutter type board. It is sad someone is taking this brand and digging their own grave. Ppl buy these amps and act holier then though because of their premium product and it is nothing but a name on a unoriginal board.
Your energetic movements and incorrect guidance remind me of a jumping jack. To properly manage the DC offset, it's crucial to delay the oscillator's startup at the CSD pin. This approach allows the offset to stabilize before the oscillator is activated, ensuring that the DC conditions have settled by that time. Consequently, there's no necessity to alter the relay or the signal board. Moreover, I'm fairly certain that the presence of the DC offset is intentional. It likely serves as an audible pulse, click indicator, or pilot tone when the amplifier is initially powered on-a common feature in many amplifiers. It's surprising because there's approximately 1V of DC, yet the amplifier will be emitting sound at over 90 dB near DC regardless. The relay is reserved for significant failures.
I appreciate your insight but this is wrong on so many levels. The issue in this video has nothing to do with the muting delay on the oscillators CSD. In this instance that is working perfectly, and yes of course you want a delay on this going low so that you can ensure all of the supply voltages and circuits are up to there normal operating behaviour before starting the very delicate class D self oscillation. To actually demand a audible sound from the amplifier during power up is barbaric, as this actually will lose you points in many world renowned sound quality competitions. This is actually why the amplifier was sent to me. The turn on pop caused a deduction of points. I've also been sent amplifiers in the past notably an alpine PDX 4 channel class D full range, that isn't fitted with relays to isolate the speaker terminals during power up, so the client was experiencing a small pop as class D switching activates across all speakers, and he wanted this gone as again points were deducted previously for this. The relay is not only for failures to protect a loudspeaker from significant DC offset, but also to prevent the pop coming through the sub when class D initialises. We know this for a fact because the relay activates on a designed delay. If this wasn't one of the the intended functions of the relay then it would simply engage the second the remote was applied.
@@barevids It's important to distinguish between audio competitions and engineering design decisions, focusing on the functionality and reasoning behind them. The mute node on the CSD is utilized to stabilize the loop and introduce hold functions. Although I've designed circuits using this exact chip, I won’t insist you adopt my perspective. You may have resolved the issue using a "brute force" approach, which is fine, but I'm here to explain that there are more optimal engineering grade methods.
Развлечения
The UK is lucky to have you as their amp repair guy
No kidding. Would be nice to find someone like him in the states.
@@N-light-end-1 true 👍
Having dozens of Zeff era ZAPCO amps, EQs, etc in my collection, this is painful to see. Similar to PPI being sold to DEI. It hurts to see kids spend their treasure on trash and say "bruh, I just wanna bang".
same as Sound stream they where top level until they sold out. Robert Zeff Started Arc audio and they are the real deal just like his Zapco amps use to be.
@@colintrenker8772 Save for the Arc KAR amps (equally trash) yah, I had an Arc G/H amp for a while then traded it for a Zapco C2K.
Directed wasn't all that bad some 10-15 years ago, but they went downhill after they bought Orion.
I'm glad Orion was able to make a comeback though.
@@PoXFreak It was prior to that when they bought PPI (which is coincidentally now owned by Epsilon, the same parent company as Soundstream and Power Acoustic. Directed was always flea market fodder. Their crap worked, but not well and not for long.
All the good Zeff designs have gone to ARC Audio in the past twenty years.
Sad to see the big names from my childhood slowly purchased out and watered down into over priced items that are living on the name alone.
The Best Repair Guy Known!
This video will be very educational for the owner of zapco
I can send him the R&D bill 😂
@@barevids 😆
@@barevids😂😅💪🏽💪🏽
@@barevidshad a look at the new us amps stuff yet? 😊
@@MatthewGuynn-ki8rn not available in the UK
If you look at 2:54 one of the legs of the bottom right transformer of the 6 isn’t even attached to the board.. you can see it moving free from the board when he brushes it against his finger!! From a brand new amp from the factory..
WOW!! Would've never expected to see zapco is going down the drain like this!! What a shame!!
Awesome video as always and love your content my brotha!! Keep up the awesome work!!
This one genuinely hurts in the heart a bit..
🥺😭😔💔
Don't worry, that was just me lifting the 12v auxiliary wind so that I could power the amp on and off 50 times while looking for the delay timing cap without unnecessary stress to the output mosfets 😁
@@barevidsOhhhh!! I gotcha now!! Thank you so much for clearing that up for me haha!! I really appreciate that!! Your the freaking man!!!
❤️❤️❤️❤️🤗🤗🤗🤗
A turn on thump has never really bothered me...
But for THAT price! No way!!
Unfortunately, it's not just the Turn-On thump that was and is the issue, it is the overall poor build quality and design overall...especially for this price.
Seems to happen often. The top quality brands turn on the marketing machine. Sells go up, then quality goes down, but price goes up.....
In 89 I had a complete Zapco system installed in Modesto california at original Zapco dealership still have the amps and the wiring
If you ever wanna sell... 😁
Can we get pics? Are they the multiple piece amps?
Would love to see pics
I just got an ARC AUDIO system , Robert Zeff now designs for Arc Audio in Modesto as well ..
Good of you to call them out! 👍🙏
Great information. Expensive doesn’t always mean it’s good
I shake my head and think "oh my zapco what have you guys done?" good one Sam and one to put into the notes.
After Zapco sold out years ago Robert Zeff started Arc audio. Arc audio/Robert Zeff makes bad ass amps like og Zapco build quality/performance.
Thanks for that info! I'm looking at Arc Audio now. 👌🏽
I have a small alpine amp for my four mid-high speakers and if I turn on the car instantly, I get a POP, but if I turn on the ignition, a second later, start the car, no pop. Not sure a hundred percent if the same exactly, but thank you for sharing and the detailing. It's inspirational and makes me want to learn more, as much as possible. Take care and nice video. 👍
When the Quality control guys lose to the bean counters in accounting.Zapco was the big deal in early mid 90s
I from IRAN , i love you man❤
You're great 🔥
Thanks for sharing your repairing methods ❤❤❤
Eventually when the Deep Bass drops expect the relay to “Chatter “ a lot. Has a customer years ago with a similar type set up driving 2 15” Subs . Complained the amp was bad , it turned out the extreme Bass notes were triggering the relay armature .
Just sad 😢….
Not if the b+ is stable..
@@davidstevens7809 True
Great video.....great explanation.
You have such a good way of explaining things as you go through the steps.
Excellent video!
Excellent ! Very well explained .
Excellent information. I think anything other than the AP amps are pretty commercialized and even the APs have not changed in a very long time.
Love your vids ❤
Wow nice work mate
I gave up on zapco when the DC reference line came out and it had volatile memory for the dsp. Then they launched cheap I-force amps and thats when we started selling Arc Audio.
Wasn’t Arc designed by Zeff after he sold Zapco?
@@gseivert Robert Zeff has been designing all of the Arc Audio amps through his engineering company. I do not believe he is an owner of Arc.
You should start an Amp company. I would buy your designs even if they aren't innovative but are conventional but high quality choices.
Meeee too!
ps sound needs to see this as they do sq builds
I'm sure not all the zapco amps are the same either. This is a zapco geaed towards the spl side, hence being an old school generic design being used. Although it would be interesting to see what the 4 channel amps do geared toward SQ.
This isn't a "sq" amp...But he might be one of the guys to show ZAPCO they're going the wrong way...
Great insights
This video sent shock waves through my SQ audio groups.
Always Luv-ya man👍 Nice job for sure😁
Wow, you know some major shit regarding all the components inside of an amp and what their functions are and what they do. That's super cool. I'd like to know how and what those things do. Much respect, you have some serious k knowledge in my opinion.
I like how that amplifier looks.
I knew Robert personally. He would not let a "little" audio issue leave the factory. John or one of the other techs would have caught the issue before the amp was boxed.
As for the board flex. Where talking about a man that has a 2 ton granite boulder on the side of the production line, he uses to see if his product distorts when heated to operating temperature......product is just ran on top the granite for a day. Measurements are taken to see how much the heatsink, and bottom plates expand and contract.
If a man is going to put a amplifier into 3 separate enclosures ( aka Zapco 3 piece amps ) so as to get the best sound.
He is not going to have "little" defects leave his shop.
As a person that's used/sold/modified Zapco products for over 45 years this is how Zapco used to be:
"Hello Zapco. Could I get my product re-silk-screened I painted the amps the colour of the car?"
"No problem."
"Hello Zapco. Could you put two of your PX equalizers on 1 face plate?"
"No problem".
They had a flat rate repair charge....never over $65.00.
Only product I had to send in for repairs.
Was customer damaged PEQ's.
You are so trustworthy in amplifier repairs. Is there any particular reason why you won't take business from outside of the UK? I live in the United States and if I ever have any issues with my amplifiers.I would prefer to send them out to you. Great videos
Because it cost so much to ship back and forth that it's not worth it
Shipping & Import tax/duty costs, and that i'm unable to offer warranty on them
Always fun & interesting 🤙
2k for a 3kw is ridiculous
Not to 2nd guess, but its odd the mute circuit causes a thump. Wonder if something else is awry in that circuit. Leaky coupling cap etc. Wonder if another zap 3k would exhibit the same issue? No argument on the lackluster build quality though, yikes.
Would be interesting to check for sure, but I'll be damned if I am paying two grand to find out 😂
When corporations need continuous profit growth, something has to pay that price, it's usually quality.
This amplifier uses the same circuitry for its delay and muting that I do in my DIY amps. Its sensitive to the DC input voltage as a fixed reference is being used to determine when the relay pulls in (usually a zener) and a fixed RC value. This means that the time it takes to charge changes with input voltage. Additionally, this can potentially cause issues with the relays as the switching time becomes more protracted as the capacitance is increased or the voltage is reduced, leading to a lazy pull-in and potential chatter and arcing. The design works much better when the voltage references for the turn-on thresholds are kept well away from the incoming rail voltage so that the charge waveform is a ramp and not an exponent, usually just using the transistor junctions themselves or a small signal diode if its a fet. Edit: They may have it set up like that to act as a really lazy under-voltage lockout circuit. Voltage too low, relays wont pull in.
I would definitely buy an amp or 10 from you if you ever sold some. 😁💯
What amazes me even thought you have been doing this for some years now is that you know what to look for & how to correct it, i'm completely lost & wouldn't know where to look to find such a problem & an easy fix. I followed your video of the JBL14001 upgrade with no success, runs fine at low volts but then switches on/off continually once above 11.5-12 volts. Need some help with that one.
So many companies these days are riding their reputations built over many years. After the trust has been built, the company decides to go a cheaper direction but keep their previously justified higher prices.
We ran into this with our 2022 Honda CR-V and our 2023 Toyota Camry XLE Hybrid.
I remember Zapco selling for a premium because they were premium. What a bummer to see them using the cheapo $100 Amazon straight from China pricing in design, but continuing to charge their premium brand price.
awww thanks for the info
I love the concept of the video, but would you mind mentioning a product that has the solutions at the end?
Thanks.
Have you had any of the memphis viv amplifiers very good quality for still reasonable prices they are also dsp controlled
Is like the old zapco sp3000.1 idk if was sold in uk, but in Italy back in the days was very popoular
I love your explanations ✊👊 absolutely unbeatable guy on car audio magician section ✅
How do the Z-AP series compare to these? I have a couple and now I want to pull the covers off and take a good look at the board mounting and transformer windings....😅
Send me some pics of the guts! Facebook.com/barevids
Great vid. Can you point to a korean amp that has the same tech. I want to buy one.
Another somewhat nasty thing about these older designs is pretty much no real protection for the switching transistors since they are based on older PWM chips. Sure it will "shut down" but only after its managed to nuke everything downstream. One of the nice features of newer SMPS/amplifier technology is the ability to switch faster and do cycle-by-cycle monitoring to detect faults which allows shutdowns in a matter of a few hundred nanoseconds. This means if something goes wrong it wont blow every single damn transistor that was on at the time of the fault. Car audio stuff really is in dire need of a design overhaul. It would not only make it more reliable, but also potentially cheaper as the designs could be more modular.
Good info here folks. @barevids what's the story on the Amcron amp behind you? Looks like a Crown copy
Not a copy, just sold to different market such as Opel/Vauxhall
I want someone to make an Amp with the best possible components avaliable for each piece without defective design in this range. 3k for 3k watts. Please. Everything is junk for the money. Cheap isn't always wanted. Show me a 3k bass Amp with top shelf components.
From what ive heard, taramps, sundown, etc, there are many good brands
Hey Sam it may be time for you to start looking at your own design, I think you got the pre req for sure. Use the audio community to your advantage. Maybe make a amp with more versatility. I'm doing as much R&D on this.
They Did, Arc Audio 4K-SE
@johnstarks5323 no they use not the best components through the whole design. They always skimp on something, caps, resistors. You see home audio amps costing 50k for 200 watts. Why isn't there that level of quality and craftsmanship in the car audio community.
@@numlockkilla Ok, that Arc audio 4k was $3k, and your examples of $50k amps. The point is You can desire something all day. But if there's not enough demand to justify that expense. corporations won't build it. most companies are smart today, knowing the market is saturated with too many car audio products. we are now in a quantity over quality, a race to the bottom market. & with EV on the horizon, the 12v platform could face extinction.
What do you think about them macrotechs in the back ground? lol I have one running my center channel and my high low subwoofer in my HT! Ive been extremely happy besides the loud fans
Yeah the fans need to be replaced for modern silent ones lol. They're alright amps, but heavy and inefficient by today's standards.
My concern is safety, fires and damage cost money. The amount of power involved is just down right deadly not moving. It will be a matter of time when we start to see the budget builds get deadly and the news is all over it and car audio is a new target. Uhh lets hope not, im just starting my biggest build yet...
Not giving zapco a pass here, but the real conundrum is that most users don't have this in depth understanding of amplifier design, and quite frankly there's not enough folks like you pulling back the wool to empower consumers.
dam i spent alot on my zapco z-150.4 II, thought it would be better than skar audio class AB, I will say it does sound good tho but Ill probably have to keep repairing it to make up for it's initial cost
Great Video! Is it possible, that they delayed the pre-amp after the relays, so that the relays won't take damage when the amp is rurned on with a high signal on the input? I don't know if it's a problem, but could it fuse the relay contacts together when turning the amp on with a high signal?
Over all sad, to sell this design for so much money.
That's a great suggestion!
The signwave from the preamp @ 7:36 looks awful. Is it, or is that a scope artifact? You could use a 12v zener from the RC delay to the base of the the relay on transistor & or a resistor in parallel with the RC cap. Nice work BTW.
Just noise on the screen from the smps and class D oscillation nearby to the probe. It's not actually there on the waveform itself 🎉
This amp reminds me of my lanzar Opti 7000.1
There's like 3 or 4 z series. I have a z150.4 lx. The one with the emblem, no crossover, and individual gain pots. Are they all the same crap? I know the ii series came with crossovers.
What a waste of everybody's time, resources and money. I just repainted an OG Bazooka BA1300. I had no idea back in the day that they had water cooling built into the chassis heatsink as an optional upgrade.. trying to find on original one for last 2 weeks.
They just dont put pride into anything anymore.
Truly curious. Could’nt we coat the coils with a non conductive glue to help isolate vibrations?? I get your not gunna flow hot glue or whatever inside the coil but outside?
Yes there are various epoxies and silicones that can be used to keep everything from vibrating. A lot of amplifier companies do that from the factory.
It's called a conformal coated board
@@melissathompson7229No, no. That's something completely different. A conformal coated board is simply a clear protective layer over the small components on the circuit board. This is to protect them from moisture. You typically see that on marine applications or circuits used in adverse environments.
What we are talking about here is a simple high temperature glue or elastic material that is put on to and around the inductors or coils to stop them from vibrating.
It’s 2024 lads! The amp reviewed as per the serial number visible is 2017 (first four digits is the year of manufacture). This model was out in 2014. I’ve used it then and it was a good amp for its time and I personally got very decent support from Zapco. I think it’s not fair to compare it with current offerings and seems rather biased.
Old stock capacitors will depreciate over time causing the pops. That’s a known fact. And humidity (especially for us in the tropics, it’s a pain) does not help the board glue, etc. The model reviewed was a good product for its time. We need to move on to more current offerings.
Cheers
Wholly crap is this guy ever the complete 100% version of 'The Amplifier Whisperer'
Thanks for calling out the poor designs and build quality of this one.
Is there much that can be done about the board flex? Glue in a long peice of plastic the the heatsink underneath the board?
This flaw is a byproduct of "lego" engineering. You have two separate sections, or modules, of the amplifier that are not properly integrated and thus fail to work properly as a system. The use of delay timers and such is a reflection of just how old and simplistic this design is. The correct approach (and what many modern, high quality amplifiers do) is to have an MCU control the relays and the MCU doesn't engage them until all subsystems have reached a nominal state.
yep I agree, although the only issue with MCU is that when it fails its almost impossible to replace unless the manufacturer stocks surplus spares and is willing to sell them to 3rd party repair centers
@@barevids Yeah. Unfortunately the bane of electronics repair in general. The code for the supervisory MCU isn't anything unique or proprietary - the manufacturers could easily make the image available for download but the high-end manufactures are going to resist that every step of the way. The best option is for the lego OEMs to just standardize it so that it is just another easily replaceable daughtercard. This would be cheaper in the long run but it would require some engineering work... why bother with that when people are still paying premium prices for flawed 20-year old designs?
I’d like to see you go through a JP 83 and show it’s design flaws
No UK distro
@@barevids they suck anyway clip light stays on the wireless bass knob and they call it user error
@@timothyanderson1132To be fair, D4S just comes off as an uber shady company. Fools parting with their money is what D4S is all about. Hopefully you've learned from your mistakes! I know I did! ❤
Thought maybe it had a DC servo engaging after the unmute
WHAT AMPS ARE TOP NOTCH BASS AMPS I THOUGHT YOU MENTIONED POWERUS . DID I HEAR RIGHT ? THANKS
Yeah powerus are my number 1 recommendation at the moment
Whats your opinion on Arc audio amps? Such as the xdi series
You might need to be more specific as there's a lot of variation in the xdi series. I've got an xdi 805 and the components are really packed in tight, it's pretty hard to work on.
@@JasonWW2000 i mean in general. Such as the quality of components used and build quality
@barevibs have you ever fix a sounddigital 6500.1?
Yeah
👍👍
Hey Sam, I have an old school Zapco ag1000 that needs some work. Can you help???
If you're in the UK, sure! Facebook.com/barevids
What would you recommend fires a good 8K amplifier who makes a good one
Ruthless audio 8500 or 10k
@@1-Six-dee cool I was just looking at those
Similar prices, what do you think about the Rockford Fosgate 2500.1 bdcp?
Anyone can tell you, it's definitely a quality amplifier that will probably do closer to 3,000 watts. I'm curious what Sam is going to say about them.
Yeah the Rockford is absolutely lightyears ahead. A proper bespoke designed amplifier using great technology. However, it's still a stupid amount of money to pay for 3krms when you can just get a Smart 3 Bass which is also superb 😂
Thats good to know, thank yo🫡
The best way to turn on your amplifier is to use a deal relay on the remote. 👌🏾
LOL no!
@@barevids i have been doing it for years 😁😁 if i have pop when the amp come on but you are the doctor of amplifier so i will take your word 👍🏾
haha in this case the pop was due to internal issue, doesnt matter how you turned the remote on externally
@@barevids true
Looks like you could offer a 'pre Reno' service (fix the cap and glue everything down) - making Amps great again...
That amp won’t be great. It’s literally the same as other 3k Korean amps just with a zapco badge. It just another cookie cutter amp with a different brand and price.
Great amps are designed in house and then produced. Now companies pick a price point and pick out colors, heat sinks and try and make as much money as possible.
It’s like someone going to a Ford factory and picking interior and paint on a truck and then they let you put whatever “brand” you want on the truck. It’s still a Ford and the same as everyone else’s.
I just realized my facmogu 8808.1 monoblock has the same color pcb and zed board revision #'ing 🤔 totally different than this but sure looks like the same build house
steg k1.2500/5000 cost less money but build quality is much better.. and k 5000 can run without problems 0.5.. running now 3 years 1.2500 without problems… had zapco 2k blown up after 7 months.. put back in place steg..
What’s the best sound quality amps right now?
Look out for some new amplifiers coming soon from the UK... Not me just to clarify lol
Shame to see zapco going cheap, I was looking at zapco amps since my DLS was stolen :(
Cool 🆒
Can you recommend an affordable 3K amplifier?
Big boss 3 🙌 or PW3500
What is your opinion on the sony mobile es amplifiers?
I would love to hear this as well
@jasx1485 The current new designs or old school?
@@bbfoto7248 the new current ones. I have the 4 channel and 1000 watt mono amplifier, I like them but it's always nice to get the expert opinion from someone like barevids
Hey man i am about to run 8-4500's a guy told me I can run the dd zvl and set all amps to slave could u do something to demonstrate this I do not understand this
Are you using a different brand of amplifier than DD? If so, it looks like you can run up to 10 mono blocks from a single dvl. You would turn down the subsonic and turn up the crossovers on all of your amplifiers. The dvl would then perform both of those functions as well as let you use a single remote Bass knob. The one step you'll need to do is calibrate the gain knob on each of your amplifiers to a set voltage so they are all identical.
My question would be why there's 8k worth of discrete devices and components in what's referred to as a 3k amp.
I've watched you repair probably a dozen or more half bridge amps with 6 transformers in the power supply and more than a dozen mosfets in the output section, and they've all been rated for over 5k or more.
I'm sure you could save some money by using inferior, lower rated components and just add more of them to compensate. I don't know if that's the case in this amp, but it could be.
Scale doesn't come across well in the video, the transformers are very tiny here compared to say a 5k+ similar model. This circuit is an older architecture that uses lower current fets so needs more of them. You can make 3krms with just a pair of IGBTs rather than x16 older MOSFETs.
what about those crowns macros😍
Anyone know where to get the power and ground connectors they use for amps like these? The pcb mount 1/0 terminals?
A doner amp lol
@@barevids lol damn
Please come out with a line of amplifiers
Yeah maybe one day..
Why anyone wouldn't run class D in 2024 is beyond me. You almost deserve it. Zapco knows what's up. They're getting it while they still can.
I do the exact same thing when replacing SMD caps. Install through hole electrolytic caps. Shorten leads and bend them outward. Done deal.
That's really sad, i was planning to buy a pair of Zapco Z-150.4 AP amps.
Is there anyone left still producing the highest quality AB class amps that i don't need to apply a bank loan for?
US Acoustics is producing the same stuff Zapco does at a third of the price. It's decent stuff.
I hear Arc Audio is where it's at now.
How simple it would be if there was just only ONE amplifier brand with only 10 models available.
But the audio world is a huge clusterfuck!
No, just the opposite. It's good to have a lot of different brands competing with each other. That's what keeps prices low. Imagine there was only one brand, they could charge whatever price they felt like charging and you couldn't do anything about it.
Car audio today is the best it's ever been.
@@JasonWW2000Curious: What brands are properly priced these days and not just the same Korean/Chinese crap that people pay $60 an amp for and then sell for 10-20x for?
@@orangejjayIt's all personal preference. The amplifiers that I run are Rockford, Kicker, Arc Audio, Focal, Digital Designs and Alpine. I can definitely recommend these brands.
If your wanting extremely low cost amps your gonna have to look at a clone design. A few of the better brands off the top of my head are Stinger, Recoil, Skar and the JP D4S amps.
I don't know what your budget is, but buying an amp second hand is a great way to save money.
For this expensive of an Amp it should not be a cookie cutter type board. It is sad someone is taking this brand and digging their own grave. Ppl buy these amps and act holier then though because of their premium product and it is nothing but a name on a unoriginal board.
Dont tell PS Sound :)
This is probably an old design and its not at all true for their products....
He’s reviewing an old Azz Amplifier idiot Not their New stuff , and not their top line stuff 👋😉💯
I see this with spl it's like the good companies put all the money into SQ and in not made about that
Such a shame.. though I will say their AP series is still proper zapco. These z series amps seem to be generic catalogue fillers xx
Behind you, I see Banda Viking 15 K 😊 4min 40sec
Yep, you'll see more of that on the channel soon 😂😭
Your energetic movements and incorrect guidance remind me of a jumping jack. To properly manage the DC offset, it's crucial to delay the oscillator's startup at the CSD pin. This approach allows the offset to stabilize before the oscillator is activated, ensuring that the DC conditions have settled by that time. Consequently, there's no necessity to alter the relay or the signal board.
Moreover, I'm fairly certain that the presence of the DC offset is intentional. It likely serves as an audible pulse, click indicator, or pilot tone when the amplifier is initially powered on-a common feature in many amplifiers. It's surprising because there's approximately 1V of DC, yet the amplifier will be emitting sound at over 90 dB near DC regardless. The relay is reserved for significant failures.
I appreciate your insight but this is wrong on so many levels. The issue in this video has nothing to do with the muting delay on the oscillators CSD. In this instance that is working perfectly, and yes of course you want a delay on this going low so that you can ensure all of the supply voltages and circuits are up to there normal operating behaviour before starting the very delicate class D self oscillation. To actually demand a audible sound from the amplifier during power up is barbaric, as this actually will lose you points in many world renowned sound quality competitions. This is actually why the amplifier was sent to me. The turn on pop caused a deduction of points. I've also been sent amplifiers in the past notably an alpine PDX 4 channel class D full range, that isn't fitted with relays to isolate the speaker terminals during power up, so the client was experiencing a small pop as class D switching activates across all speakers, and he wanted this gone as again points were deducted previously for this. The relay is not only for failures to protect a loudspeaker from significant DC offset, but also to prevent the pop coming through the sub when class D initialises. We know this for a fact because the relay activates on a designed delay. If this wasn't one of the the intended functions of the relay then it would simply engage the second the remote was applied.
@@barevids It's important to distinguish between audio competitions and engineering design decisions, focusing on the functionality and reasoning behind them. The mute node on the CSD is utilized to stabilize the loop and introduce hold functions. Although I've designed circuits using this exact chip, I won’t insist you adopt my perspective. You may have resolved the issue using a "brute force" approach, which is fine, but I'm here to explain that there are more optimal engineering grade methods.
Really disappointed with the quality of the Zapco amp, always thought Zapco was top quality