How are you liking the PowMr inverters? Which ones did you get? Im looking into those as well. I may need to still incorporate my 15kW low frequency inverter just for my well pump.
Its not the inverters... its the battery... you just have to add another battery. Most batteries come with a 100ah bms. Or u could change the bms to a 200ah if buying another battery is not an option
@@jojoowumanmensah1733 Yes dividing the load does help but even batteries are designed to only surge so much. which is why you have to design the system for the load. Cheers.
Is your system fully off grid or grid/tie? I have not yet tested but my 15kW low frequency inverter should easily handle the 5hp well pump that is sitting 100ft down in the well. I also have a mechanical soft start which has saved me loads of money as I was replacing the electronics nearly every year or two from the hard starts destroying my electronics.
What are your Locked Rotor Amps for the pump motor? I know my AC in my RV has a locked rotor amperage of 63Amps, according to the manual. It only needs that draw for a fraction of a second, but it can be a huge draw. 63Amps at 120VAC means the 12VDC batteries have to provide 10x that number of Amps, which is 630Amps! I have 4x100Ah Battle Born lithiums powering an AIMS 2500W inverter (7500W surge), and they can start the AC no problem.
@@RetroElectric Oof. If it is pumping a 300ft column of water, that's more than 9 atmospheres of pressure and nearly 140psi. That's probably a substantial pump motor, and motors typically have high locked rotor amps (the amperage that it takes to start the motor rotating). Seems like you are probably just overwhelming the surge power rating of your inverter. Some of the pricier multimeters (in the $100 range) have an ampmeter with a surge amperage reading ability. If you have one of those, or buy one, you could capture the max amps pulled when the pump starts, multiply it times the voltage, and figure out how many watts it draws on startup. Then compare that to the surge rating of your inverter. If you are over, or even close to, the maximum surge rating of your inverter, that's likely the problem.
Agreed. I think a pump controller (including a cap) would reduce the inrush a lot. Next time you replace your well pump; look to get a slow-start pump (Grunfos), which draws much less at startup. Also elimnates the anti-torque fitting in the well.
I ran into a similar problem starting the generator in my motorhome after I installed a custom built 560ah LiFePo-4 battery. I originally installed a 120a BMS which was inadequate. I replaced it with a Heltec 330A BMS (that urges to 1,200a for engine starting) which fixed the issue. That's a good lesson for those who use pre-made batteries - be sure to get one with a big enough BMS for power surge needs, not just your running amperage draw.
Yes. I only have 2500w of solar and when the sun is out at all it seems to be adequate for starting the motor so the bms that’s in there is just barely inadequate it seems.
@@RetroElectric Take a look at the SQ series of Grundfos submersible well pumps. They have a built-in soft start. Great for systems that can't handle the large inrush current of electric motors.
If you look at your motor and find the nameplate. On there is a FLA full load amps or LRA locked rotor amps. Multiply this by 6 and that should be close to your starting amps. Your system needs to be able to handle that surge. example lra/fla = 3 amps on a 240v that is 18ish amps surging. convert that to for a 12v system that's 360 amps on 12v batteries. 180amps on a 24v system. your motor could be different depending on the nema code which is also on the name plate.
If your looking for LRA range, we usually multiply the FLA x 5.5 and FLA x 8. This will get you a better indication of what is acceptable and if the pump is starting to seize up. This can be used for most loads compressors, pumps and motors. ( really helpful when no LRA is listed).
Motors have a letter code that specifies the multiplication factor. That should be the worst case. My well pump has a 14x multiplier. It doesn't take that much to start it any time I've been measuring. 3x to 4x is typical but I have seen a 10x one time.
We have the powmr as well. We are trying to connect up the parallel split to run 240v for using our well pump off it. Can you help. We cant seem to get it to program without going into standby mode
that pump must use at least 200amp at startup. Add all the batteries you want if you can't pull 200 amps thru the bms of all batteries don't buy junk your screwed
Just use a variable frequency controller and let the pump slowly ramp up in 10 seconds or so to avoid the power peak that it would draw from instant start, they are quite inexpensive, i run a 4000 watt rated 3 phase pump of a 3000va single phase Victron (2600 watt) inverter without any problems.
I don’t see any external fusing on those DC cables run into those inverters. Also, you have both positive and negative leads going underneath the lid of an AC load center and it is in a precarious position, and if it was short out, it would not be a good result. Any single phase induction motor like that requires something around 5 to 6 times that start current than the run current . It’s better to actually have a soft start circuit in between the inverters and the induction motor. You should put 125 amp fuses on all of those batteries before you parallel them together . Otherwise, keep learning you’re on the right track finding loose. Wire connections is very important.
I have 4 battery banks. 280ah cells 14,300kw each capable of putting out 250 amps each. All 4 go to a busbar and I have BMS set to 100 amps in/out max. I never go over 50 amps each to power 2 5k inverters. most people think they can just daisy chain batteries. To truly get equal power from each battery bank (mine are 16s1p 280ah cells) you need equal lengths of DC wire to busbar. if longest one is 7 feet for positive then all must be 7 feet from battery to busbar. If negative is 6 feet then all must be 6 feet. From bus bar same goes to each inverter for pos and neg cables. I always recommend 2-4 batteries for each inverter depending on big the cells are. 100ah cells I recommend 4 batteries per inverter. that means 0.25C per battery. Since I have 280ah cells I have 4 for 2 inverters and at full load 0.2C is most being used or charged into.
@@RetroElectric Okay so each battery has a capacity most likely your cells are 100ah and BMS are 50 -100 amps in and out. 3 to a busbar from each means 150-300 amps possible. that will power any well pump. Then from the busbar you can go to each inverter. I power my whole house. My well pump only uses 600 watts so I am not sure what you got for a well pump or if you have to be able to pump from a mile down and require a huge pump.
I suggest also look into how to properly parallel batteries for better load sharing, and consider up-sizing your D.C. cables. My inverter says it should have a 250amp D.C. breaker, and wiring with 1/0 AWG adequate up to 5ft or for up to 10ft use 2/0 AWG. I wired with 10ft of 4/0. If the battery voltage is low and the inverter needs to supply a large surge you don't want excess voltage drop in the D.C. wiring to the battery.
They aren’t Daisy chained, and they are hooked with the same length cabling. With the starting amps, I need I would not want a busbar application with those two batteries it would force me to run one wiring set to one battery and still jump them with Daisy whereas I’m running one cabling from one inverter to one battery and the same with the other inverter to the other battery with a parallel jumper between the two batteries.
@RetroElectric Then store the water in a holding tank and use a 1/2 hp pump to supply pressure to the house. Collecting rain water does not require a pimp.
@@RetroElectric They use higher voltages to start a motor to reduce your starting amps . They are a form of energy storage like batteries but they discharge very quickly but also charge back up quick . There maybe a day capacitors replace batteries in things like EVs
How are you liking the PowMr inverters? Which ones did you get? Im looking into those as well. I may need to still incorporate my 15kW low frequency inverter just for my well pump.
I like them a lot.
If it's not one thing it's the other lol high frequency inverters just don't surge well and the battery always has to be sized for the load.
Your right.
Its not the inverters... its the battery... you just have to add another battery. Most batteries come with a 100ah bms. Or u could change the bms to a 200ah if buying another battery is not an option
@@jojoowumanmensah1733 Yes dividing the load does help but even batteries are designed to only surge so much. which is why you have to design the system for the load. Cheers.
Is your system fully off grid or grid/tie? I have not yet tested but my 15kW low frequency inverter should easily handle the 5hp well pump that is sitting 100ft down in the well. I also have a mechanical soft start which has saved me loads of money as I was replacing the electronics nearly every year or two from the hard starts destroying my electronics.
Yes. A soft start can really reduce a starting load on electronics.
That inverter should work.
What are your Locked Rotor Amps for the pump motor? I know my AC in my RV has a locked rotor amperage of 63Amps, according to the manual. It only needs that draw for a fraction of a second, but it can be a huge draw. 63Amps at 120VAC means the 12VDC batteries have to provide 10x that number of Amps, which is 630Amps! I have 4x100Ah Battle Born lithiums powering an AIMS 2500W inverter (7500W surge), and they can start the AC no problem.
Don’t know. It’s 300 ft in the ground
@@RetroElectric Oof. If it is pumping a 300ft column of water, that's more than 9 atmospheres of pressure and nearly 140psi. That's probably a substantial pump motor, and motors typically have high locked rotor amps (the amperage that it takes to start the motor rotating). Seems like you are probably just overwhelming the surge power rating of your inverter. Some of the pricier multimeters (in the $100 range) have an ampmeter with a surge amperage reading ability. If you have one of those, or buy one, you could capture the max amps pulled when the pump starts, multiply it times the voltage, and figure out how many watts it draws on startup. Then compare that to the surge rating of your inverter. If you are over, or even close to, the maximum surge rating of your inverter, that's likely the problem.
Wonder if a start capacitor would help.
Agreed. I think a pump controller (including a cap) would reduce the inrush a lot. Next time you replace your well pump; look to get a slow-start pump (Grunfos), which draws much less at startup. Also elimnates the anti-torque fitting in the well.
The pump has a control box with I’m sure it’s rated caps. A VFD was an option I considered
I ran into a similar problem starting the generator in my motorhome after I installed a custom built 560ah LiFePo-4 battery. I originally installed a 120a BMS which was inadequate. I replaced it with a Heltec 330A BMS (that urges to 1,200a for engine starting) which fixed the issue. That's a good lesson for those who use pre-made batteries - be sure to get one with a big enough BMS for power surge needs, not just your running amperage draw.
Yes. I only have 2500w of solar and when the sun is out at all it seems to be adequate for starting the motor so the bms that’s in there is just barely inadequate it seems.
Would a soft start circuit for the well pump be a viable option?
It would and I considered it. But I couldn’t find very many options for a single phase VFD.
Yea , those PowMr stuff is not what the nameplate says.
Battery BMS is inadequate maybe just. 100amps with no surge rating.
You get what you paid for
No doubt but what is?
You should have bought an EG4 6000XP 😂
lol why? I’m not having inverter problems. EG4 are just up marked Chinese inverters. There’s Literally no Inverter that doesn’t come from China.
You need a pump with a soft start to reduce the start current in rush.
Would probably need a VFD but I don’t have enough experience to experiment on someone’s 300ft well.
@@RetroElectric Take a look at the SQ series of Grundfos submersible well pumps. They have a built-in soft start. Great for systems that can't handle the large inrush current of electric motors.
If you look at your motor and find the nameplate. On there is a FLA full load amps or LRA locked rotor amps. Multiply this by 6 and that should be close to your starting amps. Your system needs to be able to handle that surge. example lra/fla = 3 amps on a 240v that is 18ish amps surging. convert that to for a 12v system that's 360 amps on 12v batteries. 180amps on a 24v system. your motor could be different depending on the nema code which is also on the name plate.
If your looking for LRA range, we usually multiply the FLA x 5.5 and FLA x 8. This will get you a better indication of what is acceptable and if the pump is starting to seize up. This can be used for most loads compressors, pumps and motors. ( really helpful when no LRA is listed).
That’s why I said depending on the motor it can be even more
Motors have a letter code that specifies the multiplication factor. That should be the worst case. My well pump has a 14x multiplier. It doesn't take that much to start it any time I've been measuring. 3x to 4x is typical but I have seen a 10x one time.
@@Sylvan_dB I wonder what kind of service factor you have on that motor, too me it sounds like a heavy duty version with >1.25 SF
@@supermrt I think it is 1.0. Nothing is specified which means 1.0, and 1.0 is typical for a submersible well pump.
We have the powmr as well. We are trying to connect up the parallel split to run 240v for using our well pump off it. Can you help. We cant seem to get it to program without going into standby mode
Yes. Six one 6 9one4 eighty39two
Call me
that pump must use at least 200amp at startup. Add all the batteries you want if you can't pull 200 amps thru the bms of all batteries don't buy junk
your screwed
Lol
Do you only have 1 battery? Think yo may need two to get full amp output.
Yes one 180ah battery probably a 100a bms
Just use a variable frequency controller and let the pump slowly ramp up in 10 seconds or so to avoid the power peak that it would draw from instant start, they are quite inexpensive, i run a 4000 watt rated 3 phase pump of a 3000va single phase Victron (2600 watt) inverter without any problems.
I considered it actually bought a few VFD’s but there is not a lot of options for single phase VFDs
I don’t see any external fusing on those DC cables run into those inverters. Also, you have both positive and negative leads going underneath the lid of an AC load center and it is in a precarious position, and if it was short out, it would not be a good result.
Any single phase induction motor like that requires something around 5 to 6 times that start current than the run current . It’s better to actually have a soft start circuit in between the inverters and the induction motor.
You should put 125 amp fuses on all of those batteries before you parallel them together .
Otherwise, keep learning you’re on the right track finding loose. Wire connections is very important.
Thanks for your feedback. Good points.
I have 4 battery banks. 280ah cells 14,300kw each capable of putting out 250 amps each. All 4 go to a busbar and I have BMS set to 100 amps in/out max. I never go over 50 amps each to power 2 5k inverters. most people think they can just daisy chain batteries. To truly get equal power from each battery bank (mine are 16s1p 280ah cells) you need equal lengths of DC wire to busbar. if longest one is 7 feet for positive then all must be 7 feet from battery to busbar. If negative is 6 feet then all must be 6 feet. From bus bar same goes to each inverter for pos and neg cables. I always recommend 2-4 batteries for each inverter depending on big the cells are. 100ah cells I recommend 4 batteries per inverter. that means 0.25C per battery. Since I have 280ah cells I have 4 for 2 inverters and at full load 0.2C is most being used or charged into.
I understand but a Busbar would be worse than the way I have them wired right now.
@@RetroElectric Okay so each battery has a capacity most likely your cells are 100ah and BMS are 50 -100 amps in and out. 3 to a busbar from each means 150-300 amps possible. that will power any well pump. Then from the busbar you can go to each inverter. I power my whole house. My well pump only uses 600 watts so I am not sure what you got for a well pump or if you have to be able to pump from a mile down and require a huge pump.
I suggest also look into how to properly parallel batteries for better load sharing, and consider up-sizing your D.C. cables. My inverter says it should have a 250amp D.C. breaker, and wiring with 1/0 AWG adequate up to 5ft or for up to 10ft use 2/0 AWG. I wired with 10ft of 4/0. If the battery voltage is low and the inverter needs to supply a large surge you don't want excess voltage drop in the D.C. wiring to the battery.
Thanks. Cabling is fine and oversized. If it wasn’t I would be having other issues.
Get yourself a bussbar and wire each battery with same length cables vs daisy chain.
They aren’t Daisy chained, and they are hooked with the same length cabling.
With the starting amps, I need I would not want a busbar application with those two batteries it would force me to run one wiring set to one battery and still jump them with Daisy whereas I’m running one cabling from one inverter to one battery and the same with the other inverter to the other battery with a parallel jumper between the two batteries.
You need to use a low powered pump to fill the holding tank and connect a smaller pressure pump/tank to the holding tank.
There’s no such thing for a 300ft well. It takes 2-5 hp motor to push the water that high.
@RetroElectric Then store the water in a holding tank and use a 1/2 hp pump to supply pressure to the house. Collecting rain water does not require a pimp.
Try adding some capacitors to take care of the inrush
Good idea thanks.
Thanks good idea
You maybe be able to use a larger start capacitor
What exactly do start caps do on ac motors?
@@RetroElectric They use higher voltages to start a motor to reduce your starting amps . They are a form of energy storage like batteries but they discharge very quickly but also charge back up quick . There maybe a day capacitors replace batteries in things like EVs
Here is a way to fix this problem add a bank of AGM Battery with the lithium battery AMG would give it enough amps to start the pumps
I’ve mostly given up on Lead stuff. Lithiums too cheap.
your meter wont be fast enough to measure peak surge amps, thats the realm of a scope and a wizard to read it.
I’ll bring Gandalf with me next time. 😁
Just a add a super capacitor bank to the battery.
Know of any 48v ones?
@@RetroElectric Maxwell 48V 165F Super Capacitor Battery 18pcs 2.7V 3000Farads With plastic case, ebay
put a soft start on the pump
I considered a VFD
You have a pump motor problem. That's way too much start current for that size motor. Contact the manufacturer for start-up inrush current specs nah.
It’s a long 300ft wire run and it’s trying to start with 500lbs + of water it needs to push up.
Start is 3 times run amps
I’ve heard lots of different things. I’m sure the application of the motor changes with the starting amps actually are.
Soft start and probably a 24v or 48 volt system. Gotta tell ya that mess looks like a fire waiting to happen. Big inverter and big wire help too.
I considered putting a VFD in, but there isn’t many options for a single phase VFD.