Not being a powermeter user myself I must admit I still love the crazy in-depth work you put in to these test! Brilliant 👏 I wish I could see a picture of you from the side riding with the head unit on stick I front of the bike though 😜
Do you want: ✅ Accuracy up to +- 40% ✅ Weird left/right balance ✅ Dropouts ✅ Calibration fails ✅ Battery issues Get the Stages dual L/R power meter now! Seriously. The only good thing they have going is their support.
I never have any intention of buying any of these power meters but I really enjoy these videos if nothing more as validation for my purchase of the Assiomas :)
Hey Mickey, I am so close to ordering a set of the Assioma pedals, is they anything negative you have noticed about them? Any major do's or dont's to consider? This will be my first power meter so any advice would be awesome.
@@kiowa21 literally nothing at all. The supplied cleats could be a little more durable but replacing them with Look ones works great once those wear out. Two of my teammates agree with me too! They're top quality products that I will be replacing when they die.
Wish I'd seen this video before I committed to a Stages 3 LR 50/34T setup and I appreciate your attempts to keep manufacturers honest. This issue isn't as crucial for me because I'm a fitness rider and was simply looking for another way to measure my cycling improvement over time. In that regard, I'm very glad I took the plunge. Over 6 months of usage and reporting I have noticed my Right side output and balance is consistently lower than my Left. I recently went from the stock 2X chain ring configuration to a 1X configuration using a 40t Wolftooth offset chain ring. I had to clearance this chain ring a bit for the Stages PM 'pod' and gave it .003" all the way around, plus some more on the leading and trailing side of where the 'pod' nestles for possible fore/aft crank arm movement under load. Calibrated from the Garmin head unit much as I do at least every other ride. I've only put 70 miles on this new configuration but am seeing far more consistent output and balance readings side to side. Have you (or has anyone else) done any edge case testing with aftermarket chain rings or 1X configuration?
I have 4 left-sided PM meters (gen 2 and 3), and I've never had any issues. Back in early 2017, I did have dropouts, but it was a matter of Garmin v. Stages and simply moving the head unit closer. Eventually a software update was created and never a problem since. However, other than that I have NEVER had a calibration fail or sync with either the Garmin or Stages APP. I love the company and their PMs.
Excellent. That's in line with my data from both the 105 and DuraAce LEFT only meters. The right side power meter data is a different story. It didn't love me back.
I love how recently all bar the 4iiii review have turned into basically, buy the Assioma :-) considering its price point those guys seem to have really nailed it!! Love the way you dig into these issues, as someone else mentioned and you alluded to, there must be a certain element of the construction/rigidity/property of the right side that most companies just aren't accounting for properly in their algorithms (except 4iiii, another company selling at a decent price point)
just upgraded my stages ultegra left only power meter to LR and am seeing consistent 5% difference between LR and after seeing your vid I think it's due to the error you have observed and not a problem with my pedaling balance. Will send ticket to stages!
Really seems to be asymmetric deflection in the DS crankarm at different points in the pedal stroke. My bet is the torque readings at TDC and BDC are off when there are temporary accelerations within the pedal stroke. I would definitely try some more indoor lab tests with ERG in high and low gear ratios and high/low cadence (or specifically try circular pedaling vs more downstroke heavy pedaling.)
From just looking at the differences between the Left and Right crank, the right looks to be far bigger dimensions and have the spider built into it. this could make it say10% stiffer than the left with smaller dimension and no spider. So maybe with this added torsional stiffness the strain gauges aren't reading correctly as this hasn't been accounted for.
Great! Thx for the comprehensive review. Been hanging out for this vid for awhile. Yes just not good enough for me to buy the right hand unit yet. My left has worked flawlessly over the 1.5yrs that I've had it, so was keen to get the right hand unit to go with it. Hopefully in the next little while they can sort it.
Thank you! You're continuously making great content! After watching your excellent Left-Side-Only review, I assumed I was stopping here--before purchasing--only to hear flawless praise. Thank you for saving me $K 😅 Maybe they've improved the right-side issues in the last year?
I have both a Duraace 9100 L/R and an Ultegra 8000 L/R power meters on two bikes. The 9100 was a factory install on my 9100 I owned where the Ultegra was purchased from Stages. The right on both is lower than the left, but the Ultegra is more so. The duraace shows 52/48 to 50/50 on my rides. The Ultegra shows 56/44 to 54/46. I have an open ticket with stages when I came across this video.
Stages should develop their own, Stages branded, LR crankset power meter with exchangeable axle and spider (modular). They already have their own left only carbon power meter compatible with different axles. They should go in that direction wit LR option. Trying to figure out Shimano based L/R power meter seems hopeless after all those years they worked on it.
I think this (long, but bare with me) quote from Ray is very important regarding Pioneer's new dual/Right side Dura Ace power meters: "Pioneer has ever so subtly changed the strain gauge design for the latest generation of Shimano cranksets. Now, as opposed to using the same design for the left and right sides, they’ve shifted to having different designs for each side. The reason? Starting last year with the latest Dura-Ace models they were seeing variances in flex from the materials that Shimano was using for the R9100 generation units, with clear differences between the left and right sides (which could and would impact accuracy). In fact, Pioneer quietly introduced this change last year with those units on those R9100 cranksets." the quote is from this page: www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/09/pioneer-announces-new-color-mapping-gps-bike-computer-plus-new-power-meters.html
Had the same issue with my right arm reading lower on my Ultegra LR when the left arm battery died and I was too lazy to change it. I had put it down to my leg imbalance (left leg has always shown to be stronger) and didn't put any extra thought into it. Now this has me doubting my past years worth of data (not that it truly matters since this is the only power meter I use and seems to be consistent).
As you say: your recent videos turn to advertisement for the favero assioma 😜but they seem to be really good! If I haven’t my Power2max NGeco I would get a pair of assiomas for sure 👍🏻
Hi, I have Stages dual sided PM Ultegra R8000. It worked fine for 4 years, now over night the calibration value on the R side changed fron 890 to 850 and my L/R balance changed from 49%/51% to 43%/57% in favour of R side. The R side is obviously reading too high. My bike might have fallen in the garage on the R hand side, because my rear derailleur hanger was bent. Could this be the reason for inacuracy and how to fix it? Many thanks for the answers.
Cheers. I love the process... but the results usually get me shitlisted as I'm not giving the glowing/marketing/everything is fine reviews that companies love.
Been waiting for your test. I have the ultegra version and for me the right side also reads low. I also tried to calibrate each side seperat but with no luck. Hope stages will solve it soon
Shane, very deep study on your unit. Here it is my take on it. I own second generation of the left side only. I have also noticed that my unit shows lower values than reading out of my Tacx Genius. Does it bother me? A little. Does it disqualify the unit? Not really. I believe that we should use power meter as a reference tool. If I test my FTP with that unit and then I am using reading during the ride in reference to it, I find it consistent and therefore it does not bother me because I can still ride to my reference number. Do I want to compare to my fellow riders power readings? As a competitive male for sure, but does it really matter? No. Regarding the misreading between left and right side I think (my theory) that it could be coming from different placement of tensiomètres on the left and right crank arms and that manufacturer did not spend too much time on firmware to provide compensation for it. Should we as consumers expect better job for over $1200 price tag? IMO we should. But from the global perspective will that discrepancy change the way we ride or make this unit useless? Well, perhaps it proves the point that we should not spend extra money for dual sided unit? Well thanks to your test and my conclusion of it I will not be upgrading. For these people who want to know how much better is their right leg versus left you should go for the pedal power meter as it is much easier to accomplish balanced set due to the symmetry. It would be interesting to see how does it 4iiii between left and right side meters as there is similar tensiomètres placement on the crankshafts as Stages. Just from science perspective... Again IMO it changes nothing for the rider.
So I wanted the Stages to be good, I really did, but my own experience with a Gen3 hasn’t been either. My LBS damaged my old 4iii left side and got me a Stages to replace it. (At the time I didn’t know any better and the 4iii was going to take 2-3 extra months to arrive). I haven’t been happy with it. It’s been replaced once thus far and same sort of issues you got. It’s not consistent on steady state mode (I use Trainerroad) but normal riding it’s fine. Seems if you ride the way team Sky did (in the saddle, steady attacking) you’re fine. Although they just did get a new power meter sponsorship......
Does it make sense for power meters to necessarily give the "3 dimensional power"? If you're exerting forces that are not in the plane that the Stages is measuring i.e. in the plane of the crank rotations, that force is just going into flexing the crank laterally rather than driving the bike forward. I guess it's more of an "effective power" vs. "total power", but maybe it would be a cool metric to see the difference between the two to minimize "wasted" lateral forces when sprinting.
Theoretically, a "good" engineered load cell will ignore forces NOT in the designed measurement direction. This, on a strain gauge based sensor is done thru having multiple bridges on the gauge which cancel out the unwanted forces. You can increase this cancellation, or isolation if you will of the desired forces, with the placement of the strain gauges. Ideally, placement on the neutral axis effectively removes forces not in plain. For a simple rectangle the neutral axis would be on the center. Typically, you would machine a pocket into the part to create a surface there allowing you to mount the gauges. OBVIOUSLY, on a crank arm, you would NOT want to do this. So you are left with the bridge design. With more radical angularity during a sprint, I think the issue becomes more one of twisting the crank arm. Strain gauges experience changes in length that can be measured in electrical resistance that can be calibrated to force. There are plenty of good online resources for a more in depth explanation.
Thanks for the another great test and video. I've moved from LH only gen. 1 Stages PMs to the Favero Assiomas DUO about 3 weeks ago. Improved accuracy and easy to transfer between road and TT bikes. The only downside is moving from Speedplay to Look cleats and pedals. Did the Stages techs/engineers comment on the different temp. and ADC values you recorded when you did the zero offset via the app. as shown in your video? Although both ADC values (923 & 880) are in the acceptable range of +/-50 from 890 that they quote in their support notes, I'm wondering whether there should be that degree of separation in temp. and ADC values when the zero offset is done simultaneously. Apologies if you have also been down that rabbit hole as well. Cheers, Paul
Was really hoping to watch this video and have you say Stages fixed the issue with the low readings. I have the R8000 LR and have suspected the power readings were low while I was on the Kickr. On my TrainerRoad workout tomorrow I’ll record both Kickr and Stages together to see. For those that received new R side PMs from Stages, were they reading then correct?
Very good video. Good review. I know I'm coming back to this but you have no idea how I find weird that I know 4 guys (myself included) with Neo's 2 and 2T and all have their neo reading 10-20w lower on steady state (around 100W on a 900/1000w sprint) when compared to favero, quarq and neo 1. It really messes up with my nerves comparing this experience with what I see as the most known youtube reviewers on the matter. They are sending you (youtube reviewers) controlled units. Be aware of that please.
I have the exact crankset duel sided stages power meter, I have nothing to compare it to. I did have battery issues, the left side ran out of battery in the first 40 hours, then I replaced and got maybe 100 hours out of it all while the right side was full battery. Hopefully it lasts this time or I have an issue.
Any plans on testing the verve infocrank Shane? My stages has always under read when I compared it to Tax or Kickr. So on the look out for a new power meter
Hi Great video as always, I have a single side stages and I sometimes forget to calibrate my meter before heading out. So my question is how far out could my meter be, if I don’t calibrate it before a ride and also same question about my kickr snap. Thanks Andy
Been using this exact PM on my Venge VIAS Disc for almost a year. It's been rock solid and working perfectly. Stages really does make some of the best PMs on the market. Their support is also fantastic.
@@gplama Yes, I have dual sided S-Works cranks on my new S-Works Tarmac Disc (PM modules are by 4iiii but branded Specialized) and they track almost identically to my Stages PMs. Never had an issue with either PM, even in rain.
@@johntrussell7228 ok. I'm not out to burn Stages. I'm out to understand the issues I've had when comparing power meters together on the same bike. Comparing two cranks at once isn't possible.
Hi Shane, always a good review like always !! I owned a single sided gen 2 stages 105 crank 4 years ago and i'm pretty happy of the unit so far !! I then recently bought a ultegra r8000 groupset to mount on my new TCR SL bike but the colour of the crank doesn't match anymore with the rest of the groupset... I had the idea of painting the 105 stages crank to have the same colour (covering all the tech and electronic abviously ahah) but I might have to sand and then paint the crank in order for the paint to "stick". Is this process can damage the powermeter, it's accuracy etc.. ??
I just spotted a story idea - I see you have a BB386, I’ll wait for the fixing a creaking bottom bracket video in a few months time. (Trying some Loctite currently)
Hey, thanks for the video and I want to share my thoughts. I have a Stages Ultegra R8000 on the left side only for about a year and have the feeling that it does not display the correct data, in my case it is also about 10 watts missing The last time I sat on my Kickr 5 and it was the same compared to Kickr & Zwift when I was sitting in the normal position on the handlebars, but as soon as I sat upright and straight and didn't touch my handlebars, it turned out that the wattage is now correct . Did you notice anything like that too? I got myself a Stages R8000 right crank arm to see if it was still the same because I was thinking about L / R issues and differences in my case, but I didn't see this video before I got it bought. I got it today so haven't tested it yet. And here's another question for everyone: do you know how to change the big chainring? I could only get a 53/36 (fits my outdoor carbon bike) but I have to switch to 50/34 for testing now so I don't have to change the derailleur on my old bike on the Kickr. But unfortunately I can't remove the 53 chainring because of the mechanics on the crank arm ...
How did you view the Left-Right power balance? When I try to watch/see that via Shimano e-tube Ride, it stays at 0 on both sides. I do see Auto-Pause blinking sometimes but I never could see the Left-Right power balance. I also could not see it on Garmin Connect. What I am doing wrong?
You’ve reviewed the Shimano options - Shimano power meter, Stages for Shimano and have found issues with both. I have the Ultegra group set and my bike shop is still recommending Shimano Dura-Ace Power meter as my best option. What would you go for ?
I still can’t trust the data from any Shimano dual sided meter. Single side is a better option if you want to stick with the Shimano crankset and can live with a single sided meter and the compromise with left x2 power data.
Shane can you show how it will appear on your Garmin device? Also can you do a comparison with the shimano and say pioneer or a other crank based power meter. To see how stages compares
Garmin devices: It shows up as a single ANT+ device to pair. Comparison with other power meters is limited to what I cant test at the same time. This is why the pedals and a smart trainer are good reference points. I've covered the Shimano Power Meter in another video (tldw; similar issues). I've also covered the Stages Gen 3 Shimano 105 Left only in a video that had good numbers for a left only unit.
Shane, I'm considering going this exact route: replacing a standard Ultegra crankset with Stages Dura-Ace LR cranks. I've watched a ton of your videos and TBH, I don't know what to believe regarding power meter readings! Yes, the Tacx & Assioma readings are closer to each other, but are they more correct? Or is the Stages? Maybe the left crank is more accurate than the right in which case save a ton and just get the L version, right? Ray @ DC Rainmaker does recommend this product, amongst others. So, how do I figure out the bottom line here? And ultimately, does it matter? Even if I'm putting out 220W and the cranks say 210W, is that a material difference? It's maybe material in bragging rights, but I'm not competing with anyone, just trying to improve my power output and control it on climbs. And if the trend is positive regardless of the absolute values (within reason) then that's good too? Cheers!
Good questions. And this does my head in on a daily basis. For me, yep, it matters as I need trusted sources of power to compare other power meters to. At this point, NO Shimano based power meter I've tested gives readings I'm happy with from both sides. Mostly it's the right hand side. If it's my L/R being wonky, then I can't explain why the P1/P2/AssiomaDUO/Vector3/4iiii crankset (etc) don't show this issue. And most times I have those installed on the bike at the same time. Same pedal stroke. Different readings. Early data from the replacement StagesR shows the same issue as the first. My next video is yet another three days of 'wtf'ing. That should be live soon. I don't have any answers. I have data. And sometimes that's enough. See my video on the WattTeam G3 Dual for a true rabbit hole and discovery of an issue the engineers themselves knew about but didn't disclose. At the end of the day, none of this matters. Riding bikes is more than numbers.
@@gplama thanks for the - speedy - honest, data-driven response. And yes, I agree about riding bikes, but I've now got the power meter bug (after recording just about every other variable). Will look forward to the next rabbit-warren vid.
Hi Shane, did you ever manage to get this issue sorted? I have the same sort of a crank, but split them up over two bikes, and cant really tell if any discrepancy between them cause the two bikes are vastly different. I never used them as a dual unit so I cant tell either. Do you reckon you got a faulty unit? I really enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work and stay healthy :)
This issue is related to the design of the Shimano ride side crank. It'll never be resolved. I've had 15-16 Shimano based L/R cranks with the same issue. See my technical report and details by Keith Wakeham (his name is on the patent for this very design of power meter) here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
I recently installed the stage L/R duel power meter Ultegra crankset. My Garmin 830 shows almost half the cal burned then before. What could be the problem?
I'm experiencing the exact same thing with Stages Ultegra R8000 Gen 3 LR. Both sides are reading low compared to Assioma Duo and Kickr 18. Right side even lower. Also, during standing efforts it reads way too low. Check the 13:53, 13:59, 14:20 timestamps of this Trainerroad Erg workout : analyze.dcrainmaker.com/#/public/d40b817c-a5a3-4df5-72ad-1d2de6f73d58 I submitted a support ticket to Stages a few days ago, no response yet.
Good afternoon, will the total average power at the end of say a TT be correct? Or will the inconsistency on L and R affect the totals negatively or produce lower results? Thanks for your time.
That depends. Given the readings I see in steady state ERG, yes. The issue with L/R is usually less in SIM and riding outside. I’m still not confident in any Shimano Right crank as an accurate source of power across all ranges of power and cadences.
Oddly, didn't someone have similar issues with the right side when it was the Shimaino power meter? wonder if there's something in the manufacturing process of the right hand crank.
I owned one of these and had to return it because it stopped working. First, one side got wet and had to be replaced and then the new one would just not work.
Do you know if the dual sided 4iiii has any issues, like the Stages? I don’t want to purchase a product that give inaccurate power measurements. Thank you.
Have you any follow ups from this testing? Seemed a bit dot-dot-dot at the end and wonder if your experience with it has remained or if it’s been improved in manufacturing or firmware? Thanks, as always!
is this the kind of problem that firmware updates can correct? if you want L/R power it's more cost effective to buy the stages unit for LR upfront and use as single sided until they fix this issue, assuming it can be fixed...? any thoughts? (would just go for assioma pedals if battery in them was replaceable long term...)
Do you know if Shimano have done anything about the Dura Ace right side under reading that you and DC rainmaker reported Shane? Sorry for all the questions trying to weigh up the best shimano option for my bike. It still seems the best shimano option without changing BBs, cleats etc is 4iii
On the Shimano power meter? No idea sorry. Given the same issues were reported independently across a number of reviews, I'd assume they'd have addressed it and had people re-test / re-review. I've heard nothing myself. I'm hoping to get a hold of the 4iiii Shimano unit(s) to put through my testing soon.
1 year on do you think stages fixed the right side power, because I own this stages durace power meter. There has been lots of updates since and surly they would have fixed it.
@@gplama ok, well I'm glad it's not just stages it's the Shimano R cranks in general. So I would have been better off if I got left only for more accurate power which does feel pretty crap. But technically I could just remove battery in the right to single sided and you would never know but that still doesn't justify why I spent so much on the crankset... Cheers for the reply Shane
Couldnt this just be a warranty issue with the right side. I have this exact power meter on my bike and for me its close enough, only issue is, my left side has only been lasting about 50hrs, I replaced the left side battery 4 times and the right side once.......
@@gplama thanks for the reply shano, I'm very keen to see an update video if there is an answer for this, I hope a software update will sort this issue. I don't care for 15 watts but it's true and simple, it should be accurate like most of your other llama lab tests
I need some advice... My brand new 11k bike came with a lemon of both the crankset and the crank based PM pods. The bike manufacturer will replace with a stages gen 3 Dura - Ace set and the Ceramic Speed BB30-24mm Shimano road BB to make this happen. I was ok with this, until I watched this video. I just talked to Stages in Boulder Colorado and they insist that Shane had a bad set of cranks and that they stand by their product. My question is.. Did Stages fix these issues? Did they work with Shane regarding this? Is anyone else having the same issues currently?
Oh no Shane 😅, I'm interested in buying a power meter and I was going to buy the Stages Ultegra LR. But now it's definitely not my first choice anymore. What would you recommend instead of the Stages? I'm looking for total power (not necessarily with left and right distinction) and I don't want to buy pedals because of the cleats.
Matthew25 Power2max is pretty good. You can read DC rainmaker’s review about both NG and NGeco models. Quarq is another solid option but they are more expensive than power2max for Shimano users since you do need to replace the bottom bracket.
I'm a SPD-SL cleat fan too.. but don't let that stop you from choosing a good power meter solution. The Stages Right is being replaced this week.... I'll see how that goes. I'm also trying to get a hold of the 4iiiii Shimano unit to see how that stacks up (the Podiiiium was on the FSA carbon crank).
Power2Max are bloody hard get a hold of. Direct to consumer means no retail store/company has them. If I can get a hold of one, I can put it through my tests.
Thanks for the answers, power2max seems great but as I understand they are not directly compatible with Shimano. Also for me it's kind of a problem if they sell only online since I wanted to buy from a bike shop. Anyway, I'll see what the shop has, and in case I'll even try Stages so if they have problems I can return them pretty easily. Otherwise I'll switch to pedals with the Assioma Duos, I live 100 kilometers away from Favero so I think I could also buy directly from them.
Shane Miller - GPLama my only beef with 4iiii is no temp compensation. They literally say on the website to leave your bike out where you will be riding for a while before you calibrate. As we all know riding conditions change fast (sun/no sun). Seems a bit behind the curve if you ask me.
I'm having the exact same problem with my Ultegra LR cranks. Right reads low, overall numbers are 10-20 watts lower during steady state efforts when compared against my Wahoo Kickr Core. Stages support is great though, so if anyone else is having trouble, reach out to Stages.
Scott Dickey i followed their instructions and sent pics of the crank arm without battery in. Then the calibration screenshots. Now they want several fit files, honestly this is very frustrating and I will never buy stages again.
@@supertampon5 I'm at the same stage. I provided several .fit files with the meters both linked and un-linked and compared against my Kickr for reference. They're trying to tell me it is differences in my individual leg power that is the cause of the discrepancy, which makes no sense as when the units are linked the overall reading is still 20 watts lower than the kickr.. The communication has been good though. Hopefully they will come through for us.
Updare - After a lot of back and forth, Stages sent me a prepaid shipping invoice for my R8000 LR crank to go back to be re-built. Hopefully this fixes the problem. I'll post back in 2 weeks or so with an update
This review is proof that Stages haven't learned anything from their previous adventures with Gen1 & Gen2. They have rushed to the market yet again with a flawed sub-standard product and now leave it up to the user to contact their support team to tell them of the issues they were already aware of. This is not a question of L/R imbalance in this product. It's the company's mindset. They don't care about their end users so they're perfectly happy with causing unnecessary frustrations and disappointments, let alone wasting our time. They'll happily take our money and then it's up to us to chase their support team to beg for a replacement and waste more time and money. I urge anyone considering a power meter, or anything Stages produces, to please look elsewhere. We cannot allow companies that market poor quality products to thrive. This has to change and only consumers, we, can drive this change.
IMVHO Ultegra LR setup will give better numbers. Dura-Ace is the lightest SHIMANO crankset and it bends easily. It could be very hard to calibrate in the factory lab..
Has anyone had strange issues after a few month use? Mine just started playing up and the right side is reading really low mostly int he 50W range off actual. That thing is pretty much useless now. If anyone has other ideas than software update, zero reset, hard reset and new battery please let me know.
Shane, looking for your recommendation. I have a rights stages r8000 but I am not happy with it. Should I buy a left stages r8000 or go for quarq Dfour dub. But for that I need to change BB to Dub bb30.. your comments please
The right side R8000 power meter design from Stages didn't test very well, only the newer R8100 (and R9200) with the updated gauge placement report numbers I've been happy with. Quarq is always a good option.
thanks, @@gplama I just got Quarq dfour. but now the compatibility is a question with my Scott having bb86 shell. This is turning out to be quite an experiment.
thanks, @@gplama again, I got a BB86 Dub bottom bracket for the frame, and I am waiting for delivery. Do you second the reviews of BB86 Dub bearings' durability problem? is it for real?
Disappointment face that you didn't go down the LR temperature discrepancy rabbit hole. I noticed in your screenshot that there was 4 degrees Fahrenheit difference between the left and right side (70.8 and 74.8), and on my own unit have noticed temperature discrepancies of up to 6 degrees, even when the crankset has been stored inside my temperature controlled building for days, giving both sides plenty of time to reach the temperature of the room. I called Stages on it over a year ago, and they grabbed the unit they keep in house to see if it was doing the same thing. They said it WAS but assured me that it wouldn't effect power readings.... hmmmmmmmmm.
Sky has won x TdF with this power meter. Yeah but they always just sit in the saddle and pedal at constant cadences. They don't jump up and throw the bike around. And that said...perhaps that's the issue really. Are the power meter companies seeing this but saying that in that use case, you're not going to be staring at your power meter numbers. So why does it matter? As long as it is correct and consistent when you're putting out steady state that's all that matters. Again, not my thoughts exactly but I wonder if that's how they feel that it's fine as opposed to a problem. I think in the end the reality is that it DOESN'T matter if they all match as long as you're consistent in what you're using for your training/racing it will be fine. If the Stages is 10 watts lower in an out of the saddle full gas sprint because the right side is off...how does that impact your training? It doesn't really. Now if one bike has the Stages and then you jump on a Neo indoor bike to train....yes you can't directly compare the numbers. And yes it would be best if it matched. Is my thinking wrong here?
Shane Miller - GPLama I totally understand your testing and love to watch the results of all the different meters. My point is if you only had one and did you testing on that one then your levels would be set based on that low reading and it wouldn’t really matter. Now as soon as you throw in a second source of power that’s all thrown out. Best case yeah they all match. Personally I have a KICKR 17 and then bought PowerTap P1 pedals. I had been training with the KICKR for a year before i decided to try the pedals as my power source and it really threw a wrench in the works as they do read slightly different from my KICKR and TrainerRoad’s “Powermatch” really wasn’t able to deal with the differences. I’m now back to using the KICKR for power for my training and I use the P1s for power tracking and pacing when outdoors. But I never really train outdoors so hitting a specific power number isn’t that important. Keep up the great work and reviews. Awesome content.
@@gplama Awesome. I am trying to decide if I even want to know if my right side is reading low. I use my LR to control my Kickr, so I have the same readings both inside and out. Ignorance may be bliss for me haha.
@@gplama Did you get a replacement driveside crank? I would love to know if they resolved this as I need to make a choice between 4III and Stages for a replacement Dura-Ace crankset that my brand new bike manufacturer is going to pay for.
@@jeffbarco4394 Yes. Same issue. It's an underlying design issue with Shimano right side cranks that's the issue. See my report here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
I'm still looking for answers myself. There is physical differences with the left and right cranks on the Shimano range. The left will 'flex' more than the right due to the design. This shouldn't be an issue with correct placement of the strain gauges (and quality firmware code!). I have a replacement Right on the bike at the moment collecting more data.
@@gplama Yes, I would have predicted that the left one would be more likely to be off. I for one get everything I need from. PM by just monitoring the left side. I can pace rides and monitor my own efforts and training stress, and track improvements. I'm not sure if it would be even possible to correct some of what a two side system might tell you about your pedal stroke. On a different topic, there is no way I could hold 500 W as long as you did in that video. Chapeau.
Not being a powermeter user myself I must admit I still love the crazy in-depth work you put in to these test! Brilliant 👏
I wish I could see a picture of you from the side riding with the head unit on stick I front of the bike though 😜
You need to be a power meter user! C'mon man! They don't weigh that much.... honest! ;)
Shane Miller - GPLama 😂.....🤔
Rides in Japan the master in being a weight weenie😂😛, love your channel to Rides😉
Do you want:
✅ Accuracy up to +- 40%
✅ Weird left/right balance
✅ Dropouts
✅ Calibration fails
✅ Battery issues
Get the Stages dual L/R power meter now!
Seriously. The only good thing they have going is their support.
SOLD! Wait.... that's not a good shopping list. ;) The 105 Gen3 Left was pretty good.... so was this once I'd split L/R.
I never have any intention of buying any of these power meters but I really enjoy these videos if nothing more as validation for my purchase of the Assiomas :)
Hey Mickey, I am so close to ordering a set of the Assioma pedals, is they anything negative you have noticed about them? Any major do's or dont's to consider? This will be my first power meter so any advice would be awesome.
@@kiowa21 literally nothing at all. The supplied cleats could be a little more durable but replacing them with Look ones works great once those wear out. Two of my teammates agree with me too! They're top quality products that I will be replacing when they die.
@@mickeyshulkin5478 thanks for the advice, I decided to go for it. I have a set of assioma on order now 🙂. Have fun out there.
Wish I'd seen this video before I committed to a Stages 3 LR 50/34T setup and I appreciate your attempts to keep manufacturers honest. This issue isn't as crucial for me because I'm a fitness rider and was simply looking for another way to measure my cycling improvement over time. In that regard, I'm very glad I took the plunge. Over 6 months of usage and reporting I have noticed my Right side output and balance is consistently lower than my Left. I recently went from the stock 2X chain ring configuration to a 1X configuration using a 40t Wolftooth offset chain ring. I had to clearance this chain ring a bit for the Stages PM 'pod' and gave it .003" all the way around, plus some more on the leading and trailing side of where the 'pod' nestles for possible fore/aft crank arm movement under load. Calibrated from the Garmin head unit much as I do at least every other ride. I've only put 70 miles on this new configuration but am seeing far more consistent output and balance readings side to side. Have you (or has anyone else) done any edge case testing with aftermarket chain rings or 1X configuration?
I have 4 left-sided PM meters (gen 2 and 3), and I've never had any issues. Back in early 2017, I did have dropouts, but it was a matter of Garmin v. Stages and simply moving the head unit closer. Eventually a software update was created and never a problem since. However, other than that I have NEVER had a calibration fail or sync with either the Garmin or Stages APP. I love the company and their PMs.
Excellent. That's in line with my data from both the 105 and DuraAce LEFT only meters. The right side power meter data is a different story. It didn't love me back.
Your video editing is top notch. Like the sound effects that sounds like putting on tires with an impact drill when assembling the crank.
I love how recently all bar the 4iiii review have turned into basically, buy the Assioma :-) considering its price point those guys seem to have really nailed it!!
Love the way you dig into these issues, as someone else mentioned and you alluded to, there must be a certain element of the construction/rigidity/property of the right side that most companies just aren't accounting for properly in their algorithms (except 4iiii, another company selling at a decent price point)
Agree, but my only hesitation is, the battery's are not replaceable, so how long will they last before you literally have to buy.... New pedals???
just upgraded my stages ultegra left only power meter to LR and am seeing consistent 5% difference between LR and after seeing your vid I think it's due to the error you have observed and not a problem with my pedaling balance. Will send ticket to stages!
I haven't had problems with mine, hopefully that gets sorted with your replacement right!
99% of the time I watch these comparison video’s, I am vindicated of my Assioma purchase.
I have the Assioma Uno left side and so are very impressed with the reliability and accuracy.
Really seems to be asymmetric deflection in the DS crankarm at different points in the pedal stroke. My bet is the torque readings at TDC and BDC are off when there are temporary accelerations within the pedal stroke. I would definitely try some more indoor lab tests with ERG in high and low gear ratios and high/low cadence (or specifically try circular pedaling vs more downstroke heavy pedaling.)
From just looking at the differences between the Left and Right crank, the right looks to be far bigger dimensions and have the spider built into it. this could make it say10% stiffer than the left with smaller dimension and no spider. So maybe with this added torsional stiffness the strain gauges aren't reading correctly as this hasn't been accounted for.
I have found the exact same issue with the Ultegra 8000 LR version.
Great! Thx for the comprehensive review. Been hanging out for this vid for awhile. Yes just not good enough for me to buy the right hand unit yet. My left has worked flawlessly over the 1.5yrs that I've had it, so was keen to get the right hand unit to go with it. Hopefully in the next little while they can sort it.
Thank you! You're continuously making great content!
After watching your excellent Left-Side-Only review, I assumed I was stopping here--before purchasing--only to hear flawless praise. Thank you for saving me $K 😅 Maybe they've improved the right-side issues in the last year?
I have both a Duraace 9100 L/R and an Ultegra 8000 L/R power meters on two bikes. The 9100 was a factory install on my 9100 I owned where the Ultegra was purchased from Stages. The right on both is lower than the left, but the Ultegra is more so. The duraace shows 52/48 to 50/50 on my rides. The Ultegra shows 56/44 to 54/46. I have an open ticket with stages when I came across this video.
More light reading here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
@@gplama Thanks, I'll have to take a few minutes to digest the link.
Stages should develop their own, Stages branded, LR crankset power meter with exchangeable axle and spider (modular). They already have their own left only carbon power meter compatible with different axles. They should go in that direction wit LR option. Trying to figure out Shimano based L/R power meter seems hopeless after all those years they worked on it.
Yeeeep. So nice to see that I wasn't crazy and imagining things.
I think this (long, but bare with me) quote from Ray is very important regarding Pioneer's new dual/Right side Dura Ace power meters:
"Pioneer has ever so subtly changed the strain gauge design for the latest generation of Shimano cranksets. Now, as opposed to using the same design for the left and right sides, they’ve shifted to having different designs for each side.
The reason? Starting last year with the latest Dura-Ace models they were seeing variances in flex from the materials that Shimano was using for the R9100 generation units, with clear differences between the left and right sides (which could and would impact accuracy). In fact, Pioneer quietly introduced this change last year with those units on those R9100 cranksets."
the quote is from this page: www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/09/pioneer-announces-new-color-mapping-gps-bike-computer-plus-new-power-meters.html
Has Stages also adopted a different strain guage to take into account the different materials?
This is a very good question. I don't know. (I'd have hoped so, for the price)
Had the same issue with my right arm reading lower on my Ultegra LR when the left arm battery died and I was too lazy to change it. I had put it down to my leg imbalance (left leg has always shown to be stronger) and didn't put any extra thought into it. Now this has me doubting my past years worth of data (not that it truly matters since this is the only power meter I use and seems to be consistent).
As you say: your recent videos turn to advertisement for the favero assioma 😜but they seem to be really good!
If I haven’t my Power2max NGeco I would get a pair of assiomas for sure 👍🏻
Hi, I have Stages dual sided PM Ultegra R8000. It worked fine for 4 years, now over night the calibration value on the R side changed fron 890 to 850 and my L/R balance changed from 49%/51% to 43%/57% in favour of R side. The R side is obviously reading too high. My bike might have fallen in the garage on the R hand side, because my rear derailleur hanger was bent. Could this be the reason for inacuracy and how to fix it?
Many thanks for the answers.
You are the best, thank you man
Thanks for the info. I’ll save $500 and buy a left only Stages power meter!
Great review Shane!
Cheers. I love the process... but the results usually get me shitlisted as I'm not giving the glowing/marketing/everything is fine reviews that companies love.
@@gplama I have a feeling that the consumer puts you on nice list.
If you could test this powermeter from specialized,it would be a great comparison =>Specialized S-Works Carbon Power Crank - Dual Sided Powermeter
Seems that Trek going with Sram is looking like a good move
I'll stick with my left side only.
The hidden gem is that the L crank only Gen3 is good.
The Stages Shimano 105 Left only crank was a thumbs up from me. So is this Dura-Ace Left. The investigation of the Right continues.... stay tuned!
Been waiting for your test. I have the ultegra version and for me the right side also reads low. I also tried to calibrate each side seperat but with no luck. Hope stages will solve it soon
Did they ever solve it?
Did stages solve it with the latest firmwares?
Shane, very deep study on your unit. Here it is my take on it. I own second generation of the left side only. I have also noticed that my unit shows lower values than reading out of my Tacx Genius. Does it bother me? A little. Does it disqualify the unit? Not really. I believe that we should use power meter as a reference tool. If I test my FTP with that unit and then I am using reading during the ride in reference to it, I find it consistent and therefore it does not bother me because I can still ride to my reference number. Do I want to compare to my fellow riders power readings? As a competitive male for sure, but does it really matter? No. Regarding the misreading between left and right side I think (my theory) that it could be coming from different placement of tensiomètres on the left and right crank arms and that manufacturer did not spend too much time on firmware to provide compensation for it. Should we as consumers expect better job for over $1200 price tag? IMO we should. But from the global perspective will that discrepancy change the way we ride or make this unit useless? Well, perhaps it proves the point that we should not spend extra money for dual sided unit? Well thanks to your test and my conclusion of it I will not be upgrading. For these people who want to know how much better is their right leg versus left you should go for the pedal power meter as it is much easier to accomplish balanced set due to the symmetry.
It would be interesting to see how does it 4iiii between left and right side meters as there is similar tensiomètres placement on the crankshafts as Stages. Just from science perspective... Again IMO it changes nothing for the rider.
It seems to me the difference in density of the two crank arms is causing the difference in readings.
faveira assioma's seem the way to go
So I wanted the Stages to be good, I really did, but my own experience with a Gen3 hasn’t been either. My LBS damaged my old 4iii left side and got me a Stages to replace it. (At the time I didn’t know any better and the 4iii was going to take 2-3 extra months to arrive). I haven’t been happy with it. It’s been replaced once thus far and same sort of issues you got. It’s not consistent on steady state mode (I use Trainerroad) but normal riding it’s fine. Seems if you ride the way team Sky did (in the saddle, steady attacking) you’re fine. Although they just did get a new power meter sponsorship......
Good video Shane
Does it make sense for power meters to necessarily give the "3 dimensional power"? If you're exerting forces that are not in the plane that the Stages is measuring i.e. in the plane of the crank rotations, that force is just going into flexing the crank laterally rather than driving the bike forward. I guess it's more of an "effective power" vs. "total power", but maybe it would be a cool metric to see the difference between the two to minimize "wasted" lateral forces when sprinting.
Theoretically, a "good" engineered load cell will ignore forces NOT in the designed measurement direction. This, on a strain gauge based sensor is done thru having multiple bridges on the gauge which cancel out the unwanted forces. You can increase this cancellation, or isolation if you will of the desired forces, with the placement of the strain gauges. Ideally, placement on the neutral axis effectively removes forces not in plain. For a simple rectangle the neutral axis would be on the center. Typically, you would machine a pocket into the part to create a surface there allowing you to mount the gauges. OBVIOUSLY, on a crank arm, you would NOT want to do this. So you are left with the bridge design.
With more radical angularity during a sprint, I think the issue becomes more one of twisting the crank arm. Strain gauges experience changes in length that can be measured in electrical resistance that can be calibrated to force. There are plenty of good online resources for a more in depth explanation.
Thanks for the another great test and video. I've moved from LH only gen. 1 Stages PMs to the Favero Assiomas DUO about 3 weeks ago. Improved accuracy and easy to transfer between road and TT bikes. The only downside is moving from Speedplay to Look cleats and pedals. Did the Stages techs/engineers comment on the different temp. and ADC values you recorded when you did the zero offset via the app. as shown in your video? Although both ADC values (923 & 880) are in the acceptable range of +/-50 from 890 that they quote in their support notes, I'm wondering whether there should be that degree of separation in temp. and ADC values when the zero offset is done simultaneously. Apologies if you have also been down that rabbit hole as well. Cheers, Paul
Was really hoping to watch this video and have you say Stages fixed the issue with the low readings. I have the R8000 LR and have suspected the power readings were low while I was on the Kickr. On my TrainerRoad workout tomorrow I’ll record both Kickr and Stages together to see.
For those that received new R side PMs from Stages, were they reading then correct?
Very good video. Good review. I know I'm coming back to this but you have no idea how I find weird that I know 4 guys (myself included) with Neo's 2 and 2T and all have their neo reading 10-20w lower on steady state (around 100W on a 900/1000w sprint) when compared to favero, quarq and neo 1.
It really messes up with my nerves comparing this experience with what I see as the most known youtube reviewers on the matter. They are sending you (youtube reviewers) controlled units. Be aware of that please.
I have the exact crankset duel sided stages power meter, I have nothing to compare it to. I did have battery issues, the left side ran out of battery in the first 40 hours, then I replaced and got maybe 100 hours out of it all while the right side was full battery. Hopefully it lasts this time or I have an issue.
Any plans on testing the verve infocrank Shane? My stages has always under read when I compared it to Tax or Kickr. So on the look out for a new power meter
If I can get a hold of one... I haven't to date.
So thankful I watched this before ordering a crank this morning... Time to search for another power meter :/
Hi Great video as always, I have a single side stages and I sometimes forget to calibrate my meter before heading out. So my question is how far out could my meter be, if I don’t calibrate it before a ride and also same question about my kickr snap. Thanks Andy
Hi Shane, thanks for the review and info. Do you know if firmware updates have resolved your issues? Cheers
No they haven’t.
Shane Miller - GPLama Damn. Thanks for the quick reply!
Been using this exact PM on my Venge VIAS Disc for almost a year. It's been rock solid and working perfectly. Stages really does make some of the best PMs on the market. Their support is also fantastic.
Have you compared the power numbers to any other sources? Stand-alone the unit would be as you say.
@@gplama Yes, I have dual sided S-Works cranks on my new S-Works Tarmac Disc (PM modules are by 4iiii but branded Specialized) and they track almost identically to my Stages PMs. Never had an issue with either PM, even in rain.
@@johntrussell7228 ok. I'm not out to burn Stages. I'm out to understand the issues I've had when comparing power meters together on the same bike. Comparing two cranks at once isn't possible.
Hi Shane, always a good review like always !!
I owned a single sided gen 2 stages 105 crank 4 years ago and i'm pretty happy of the unit so far !! I then recently bought a ultegra r8000 groupset to mount on my new TCR SL bike but the colour of the crank doesn't match anymore with the rest of the groupset... I had the idea of painting the 105 stages crank to have the same colour (covering all the tech and electronic abviously ahah) but I might have to sand and then paint the crank in order for the paint to "stick". Is this process can damage the powermeter, it's accuracy etc.. ??
Hmm. Not sure. One for Stages and/or Shimano to answer.
Great review as always! Keep up the great work. Have you tested the pioneer L/R power meter?
I have..... the user experience video is in progress.
I just spotted a story idea - I see you have a BB386, I’ll wait for the fixing a creaking bottom bracket video in a few months time. (Trying some Loctite currently)
Hambini is the man for this one! His bottom brackets solve problems.
Hey, thanks for the video and I want to share my thoughts.
I have a Stages Ultegra R8000 on the left side only for about a year and have the feeling that it does not display the correct data, in my case it is also about 10 watts missing
The last time I sat on my Kickr 5 and it was the same compared to Kickr & Zwift when I was sitting in the normal position on the handlebars, but as soon as I sat upright and straight and didn't touch my handlebars, it turned out that the wattage is now correct . Did you notice anything like that too?
I got myself a Stages R8000 right crank arm to see if it was still the same because I was thinking about L / R issues and differences in my case, but I didn't see this video before I got it bought. I got it today so haven't tested it yet.
And here's another question for everyone: do you know how to change the big chainring? I could only get a 53/36 (fits my outdoor carbon bike) but I have to switch to 50/34 for testing now so I don't have to change the derailleur on my old bike on the Kickr. But unfortunately I can't remove the 53 chainring because of the mechanics on the crank arm ...
How did you view the Left-Right power balance? When I try to watch/see that via Shimano e-tube Ride, it stays at 0 on both sides. I do see Auto-Pause blinking sometimes but I never could see the Left-Right power balance. I also could not see it on Garmin Connect. What I am doing wrong?
Power balance is shown on most head units / GPS. I also review the data with a tool that splits L/R.
so for now Do you prefer stage dual or rotor inpower spider with aldhu crank?
I was going to ask if a gen 1 LH stages is compatible with a RH gen3. But looks like I'd gain nothing from paring them up.
You’ve reviewed the Shimano options - Shimano power meter, Stages for Shimano and have found issues with both. I have the Ultegra group set and my bike shop is still recommending Shimano Dura-Ace Power meter as my best option. What would you go for ?
I still can’t trust the data from any Shimano dual sided meter. Single side is a better option if you want to stick with the Shimano crankset and can live with a single sided meter and the compromise with left x2 power data.
because right side is more stiffer then left side of that crank set .....
Yep... but that shouldn't be a problem with the correct gauges, calibration, and data processing.
Shane can you show how it will appear on your Garmin device? Also can you do a comparison with the shimano and say pioneer or a other crank based power meter. To see how stages compares
Garmin devices: It shows up as a single ANT+ device to pair. Comparison with other power meters is limited to what I cant test at the same time. This is why the pedals and a smart trainer are good reference points. I've covered the Shimano Power Meter in another video (tldw; similar issues). I've also covered the Stages Gen 3 Shimano 105 Left only in a video that had good numbers for a left only unit.
Shane, I'm considering going this exact route: replacing a standard Ultegra crankset with Stages Dura-Ace LR cranks. I've watched a ton of your videos and TBH, I don't know what to believe regarding power meter readings! Yes, the Tacx & Assioma readings are closer to each other, but are they more correct? Or is the Stages? Maybe the left crank is more accurate than the right in which case save a ton and just get the L version, right? Ray @ DC Rainmaker does recommend this product, amongst others. So, how do I figure out the bottom line here? And ultimately, does it matter? Even if I'm putting out 220W and the cranks say 210W, is that a material difference? It's maybe material in bragging rights, but I'm not competing with anyone, just trying to improve my power output and control it on climbs. And if the trend is positive regardless of the absolute values (within reason) then that's good too? Cheers!
Good questions. And this does my head in on a daily basis. For me, yep, it matters as I need trusted sources of power to compare other power meters to. At this point, NO Shimano based power meter I've tested gives readings I'm happy with from both sides. Mostly it's the right hand side. If it's my L/R being wonky, then I can't explain why the P1/P2/AssiomaDUO/Vector3/4iiii crankset (etc) don't show this issue. And most times I have those installed on the bike at the same time. Same pedal stroke. Different readings. Early data from the replacement StagesR shows the same issue as the first. My next video is yet another three days of 'wtf'ing. That should be live soon.
I don't have any answers. I have data. And sometimes that's enough. See my video on the WattTeam G3 Dual for a true rabbit hole and discovery of an issue the engineers themselves knew about but didn't disclose.
At the end of the day, none of this matters. Riding bikes is more than numbers.
@@gplama thanks for the - speedy - honest, data-driven response. And yes, I agree about riding bikes, but I've now got the power meter bug (after recording just about every other variable). Will look forward to the next rabbit-warren vid.
Nice work, that's lots of time spent collecting data.
Makes me feel good about going down the P1 pedals route. They’re ugly as hell but the data is rock solid.
Hi Shane, did you ever manage to get this issue sorted? I have the same sort of a crank, but split them up over two bikes, and cant really tell if any discrepancy between them cause the two bikes are vastly different. I never used them as a dual unit so I cant tell either. Do you reckon you got a faulty unit? I really enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work and stay healthy :)
This issue is related to the design of the Shimano ride side crank. It'll never be resolved. I've had 15-16 Shimano based L/R cranks with the same issue. See my technical report and details by Keith Wakeham (his name is on the patent for this very design of power meter) here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
Is there any chance you could do a video about if you can use the Garmin vector 3 with q rings?
Anyone know if Stages have tried to correct these problems with firmware updates or something like that?
I recently installed the stage L/R duel power meter Ultegra crankset. My Garmin 830 shows almost half the cal burned then before. What could be the problem?
One for Stages or Garmin Support.
I'm experiencing the exact same thing with Stages Ultegra R8000 Gen 3 LR. Both sides are reading low compared to Assioma Duo and Kickr 18. Right side even lower. Also, during standing efforts it reads way too low. Check the 13:53, 13:59, 14:20 timestamps of this Trainerroad Erg workout
:
analyze.dcrainmaker.com/#/public/d40b817c-a5a3-4df5-72ad-1d2de6f73d58
I submitted a support ticket to Stages a few days ago, no response yet.
Good afternoon, will the total average power at the end of say a TT be correct? Or will the inconsistency on L and R affect the totals negatively or produce lower results? Thanks for your time.
That depends. Given the readings I see in steady state ERG, yes. The issue with L/R is usually less in SIM and riding outside. I’m still not confident in any Shimano Right crank as an accurate source of power across all ranges of power and cadences.
Oddly, didn't someone have similar issues with the right side when it was the Shimaino power meter? wonder if there's something in the manufacturing process of the right hand crank.
Yep.... but the Shimano one read low in steady-state outside, in the saddle. I'll need to loop back on that one again one day.
I owned one of these and had to return it because it stopped working. First, one side got wet and had to be replaced and then the new one would just not work.
Do you know if the dual sided 4iiii has any issues, like the Stages? I don’t want to purchase a product that give inaccurate power measurements. Thank you.
When installed on a Shimano crank, yes. More details here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
Shane Miller - GPLama Thank you for the info! Looks like the ASSIOMA DUO is the way to go.
Have you any follow ups from this testing? Seemed a bit dot-dot-dot at the end and wonder if your experience with it has remained or if it’s been improved in manufacturing or firmware? Thanks, as always!
Zero follow up from Shimano. Keep clear of this one.
is this the kind of problem that firmware updates can correct? if you want L/R power it's more cost effective to buy the stages unit for LR upfront and use as single sided until they fix this issue, assuming it can be fixed...? any thoughts? (would just go for assioma pedals if battery in them was replaceable long term...)
That’s one for Stages. Let’s see if a replacement right crank resolves this one.
hope so! i like the idea of stages for my setup. thanks for all the work you do!
Do you think it is possible to calibrate whilst pushing up on the pedals to get a more accurate but artificial calibration. Just thinking.
If the issue was uniform, then it’d be an offset error. Easy fixed. This is more complex.
Do you know if Shimano have done anything about the Dura Ace right side under reading that you and DC rainmaker reported Shane? Sorry for all the questions trying to weigh up the best shimano option for my bike. It still seems the best shimano option without changing BBs, cleats etc is 4iii
On the Shimano power meter? No idea sorry. Given the same issues were reported independently across a number of reviews, I'd assume they'd have addressed it and had people re-test / re-review. I've heard nothing myself. I'm hoping to get a hold of the 4iiii Shimano unit(s) to put through my testing soon.
Thanks Shane, fantastic as always.
Can you disconnect the left, calibrate the right and then reconnect the left? Great video though.
The mobile app does a zero of both sides, so nope that won't resolve this one.
1 year on do you think stages fixed the right side power, because I own this stages durace power meter. There has been lots of updates since and surly they would have fixed it.
No.
@@gplama What! your joking. Lots of my riding is out the the saddle doing short sprints. I would hate to be lied to about my power.
It’s complicated. gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
@@gplama thanks heaps I'll read through.
@@gplama ok, well I'm glad it's not just stages it's the Shimano R cranks in general. So I would have been better off if I got left only for more accurate power which does feel pretty crap. But technically I could just remove battery in the right to single sided and you would never know but that still doesn't justify why I spent so much on the crankset...
Cheers for the reply Shane
Couldnt this just be a warranty issue with the right side. I have this exact power meter on my bike and for me its close enough, only issue is, my left side has only been lasting about 50hrs, I replaced the left side battery 4 times and the right side once.......
This isn't an issue with their warranty. I'm still looking for answers on why the right, and the replacement right does the same thing.
@@gplama thanks for the reply shano, I'm very keen to see an update video if there is an answer for this, I hope a software update will sort this issue. I don't care for 15 watts but it's true and simple, it should be accurate like most of your other llama lab tests
8:41 You have 4deg F difference between left and right? That seems like a lot if you are inside.
I was breathing heavy on one crank... sorry. ;)
I need some advice... My brand new 11k bike came with a lemon of both the crankset and the crank based PM pods. The bike manufacturer will replace with a stages gen 3 Dura - Ace set and the Ceramic Speed BB30-24mm Shimano road BB to make this happen. I was ok with this, until I watched this video. I just talked to Stages in Boulder Colorado and they insist that Shane had a bad set of cranks and that they stand by their product. My question is.. Did Stages fix these issues? Did they work with Shane regarding this? Is anyone else having the same issues currently?
Wait.... they said that? Please forward me those emails. gplama at gmail.com
Oh no Shane 😅, I'm interested in buying a power meter and I was going to buy the Stages Ultegra LR. But now it's definitely not my first choice anymore. What would you recommend instead of the Stages? I'm looking for total power (not necessarily with left and right distinction) and I don't want to buy pedals because of the cleats.
Matthew25 Power2max is pretty good. You can read DC rainmaker’s review about both NG and NGeco models. Quarq is another solid option but they are more expensive than power2max for Shimano users since you do need to replace the bottom bracket.
I'm a SPD-SL cleat fan too.. but don't let that stop you from choosing a good power meter solution. The Stages Right is being replaced this week.... I'll see how that goes. I'm also trying to get a hold of the 4iiiii Shimano unit to see how that stacks up (the Podiiiium was on the FSA carbon crank).
Power2Max are bloody hard get a hold of. Direct to consumer means no retail store/company has them. If I can get a hold of one, I can put it through my tests.
Thanks for the answers, power2max seems great but as I understand they are not directly compatible with Shimano. Also for me it's kind of a problem if they sell only online since I wanted to buy from a bike shop. Anyway, I'll see what the shop has, and in case I'll even try Stages so if they have problems I can return them pretty easily. Otherwise I'll switch to pedals with the Assioma Duos, I live 100 kilometers away from Favero so I think I could also buy directly from them.
Shane Miller - GPLama my only beef with 4iiii is no temp compensation. They literally say on the website to leave your bike out where you will be riding for a while before you calibrate. As we all know riding conditions change fast (sun/no sun). Seems a bit behind the curve if you ask me.
I'm having the exact same problem with my Ultegra LR cranks. Right reads low, overall numbers are 10-20 watts lower during steady state efforts when compared against my Wahoo Kickr Core. Stages support is great though, so if anyone else is having trouble, reach out to Stages.
Same issue with a 9100 I reached out
@@supertampon5 did you come to a solution with them? I'm in the midst of sending .fit files back and forth. Very time consuming
Scott Dickey i followed their instructions and sent pics of the crank arm without battery in. Then the calibration screenshots. Now they want several fit files, honestly this is very frustrating and I will never buy stages again.
@@supertampon5 I'm at the same stage. I provided several .fit files with the meters both linked and un-linked and compared against my Kickr for reference. They're trying to tell me it is differences in my individual leg power that is the cause of the discrepancy, which makes no sense as when the units are linked the overall reading is still 20 watts lower than the kickr.. The communication has been good though. Hopefully they will come through for us.
Updare - After a lot of back and forth, Stages sent me a prepaid shipping invoice for my R8000 LR crank to go back to be re-built. Hopefully this fixes the problem. I'll post back in 2 weeks or so with an update
Do you anticipate that a firmware update will fix the problem or is this a hardware problem
I have no idea. That's one for Stages Support.
This review is proof that Stages haven't learned anything from their previous adventures with Gen1 & Gen2. They have rushed to the market yet again with a flawed sub-standard product and now leave it up to the user to contact their support team to tell them of the issues they were already aware of. This is not a question of L/R imbalance in this product. It's the company's mindset. They don't care about their end users so they're perfectly happy with causing unnecessary frustrations and disappointments, let alone wasting our time. They'll happily take our money and then it's up to us to chase their support team to beg for a replacement and waste more time and money. I urge anyone considering a power meter, or anything Stages produces, to please look elsewhere. We cannot allow companies that market poor quality products to thrive. This has to change and only consumers, we, can drive this change.
Meanwhile IQ2 are claiming to have made their first production units. *Laughs in kickstarter*
2 years later they have yet to deliver
Any updates on the right side?
Does this crank power meter have the integration with Garmin 830?
Yes
IMVHO Ultegra LR setup will give better numbers. Dura-Ace is the lightest SHIMANO crankset and it bends easily. It could be very hard to calibrate in the factory lab..
I’d love to test this theory 👍🏼
Has anyone had strange issues after a few month use? Mine just started playing up and the right side is reading really low mostly int he 50W range off actual. That thing is pretty much useless now. If anyone has other ideas than software update, zero reset, hard reset and new battery please let me know.
Shane, looking for your recommendation. I have a rights stages r8000 but I am not happy with it. Should I buy a left stages r8000 or go for quarq Dfour dub. But for that I need to change BB to Dub bb30.. your comments please
The right side R8000 power meter design from Stages didn't test very well, only the newer R8100 (and R9200) with the updated gauge placement report numbers I've been happy with. Quarq is always a good option.
thanks, @@gplama I just got Quarq dfour. but now the compatibility is a question with my Scott having bb86 shell. This is turning out to be quite an experiment.
@@husnainanwar514 DUB needed? You can get press-fit DUB bearings for a BB86 shell.
thanks, @@gplama again, I got a BB86 Dub bottom bracket for the frame, and I am waiting for delivery. Do you second the reviews of BB86 Dub bearings' durability problem? is it for real?
@@husnainanwar514 They've worked ok for me. I haven't done a ton of kms in shitty conditions though... I guess it depends.
Disappointment face that you didn't go down the LR temperature discrepancy rabbit hole. I noticed in your screenshot that there was 4 degrees Fahrenheit difference between the left and right side (70.8 and 74.8), and on my own unit have noticed temperature discrepancies of up to 6 degrees, even when the crankset has been stored inside my temperature controlled building for days, giving both sides plenty of time to reach the temperature of the room. I called Stages on it over a year ago, and they grabbed the unit they keep in house to see if it was doing the same thing. They said it WAS but assured me that it wouldn't effect power readings.... hmmmmmmmmm.
With proper ATC it shouldn't be an issue.... in theory (and in practice).
Fair enough. Still a bit wonky though, and it doesn't make sense as to why there is that discrepancy.
Any improvement in this set as years have past?
Nope.
Popcorn. Check. Ready for some rabbit holes! :) Oh, and First!
Was there any update on this? Did they fix it?
They fixed it with the 9200.
I thought it was my left right balance was wonky until seeing this...
any updates that maybe fixed that issue?
Nope.
Is there any update from stages ? Thanks.
Sky has won x TdF with this power meter. Yeah but they always just sit in the saddle and pedal at constant cadences. They don't jump up and throw the bike around.
And that said...perhaps that's the issue really. Are the power meter companies seeing this but saying that in that use case, you're not going to be staring at your power meter numbers. So why does it matter? As long as it is correct and consistent when you're putting out steady state that's all that matters.
Again, not my thoughts exactly but I wonder if that's how they feel that it's fine as opposed to a problem.
I think in the end the reality is that it DOESN'T matter if they all match as long as you're consistent in what you're using for your training/racing it will be fine. If the Stages is 10 watts lower in an out of the saddle full gas sprint because the right side is off...how does that impact your training? It doesn't really. Now if one bike has the Stages and then you jump on a Neo indoor bike to train....yes you can't directly compare the numbers. And yes it would be best if it matched.
Is my thinking wrong here?
If I need to do 250W ERG and the power meter is reporting only 235W. I have a problem with that. That's not within +/- 1.5% and I want to know why.
Shane Miller - GPLama I totally understand your testing and love to watch the results of all the different meters. My point is if you only had one and did you testing on that one then your levels would be set based on that low reading and it wouldn’t really matter. Now as soon as you throw in a second source of power that’s all thrown out.
Best case yeah they all match. Personally I have a KICKR 17 and then bought PowerTap P1 pedals. I had been training with the KICKR for a year before i decided to try the pedals as my power source and it really threw a wrench in the works as they do read slightly different from my KICKR and TrainerRoad’s “Powermatch” really wasn’t able to deal with the differences. I’m now back to using the KICKR for power for my training and I use the P1s for power tracking and pacing when outdoors. But I never really train outdoors so hitting a specific power number isn’t that important.
Keep up the great work and reviews. Awesome content.
Any further update on this, Shane?
Nothing I want to report on... yet :) Soon. I have a replacement right that I'm throwing everything at.
@@gplama Awesome. I am trying to decide if I even want to know if my right side is reading low. I use my LR to control my Kickr, so I have the same readings both inside and out. Ignorance may be bliss for me haha.
@@gplama Did you get a replacement driveside crank? I would love to know if they resolved this as I need to make a choice between 4III and Stages for a replacement Dura-Ace crankset that my brand new bike manufacturer is going to pay for.
@@jeffbarco4394 Yes. Same issue. It's an underlying design issue with Shimano right side cranks that's the issue. See my report here: gplama.com/2019/06/29/shimano-crankset-power-meters/
Nice background. Looks like cnn news
Any one with experience with the Pioneer Dura-Ace dual sided crank set ????
Lots. Don’t touch it.
But why only on the right side? Strange.
I'm still looking for answers myself. There is physical differences with the left and right cranks on the Shimano range. The left will 'flex' more than the right due to the design. This shouldn't be an issue with correct placement of the strain gauges (and quality firmware code!). I have a replacement Right on the bike at the moment collecting more data.
@@gplama Yes, I would have predicted that the left one would be more likely to be off. I for one get everything I need from. PM by just monitoring the left side. I can pace rides and monitor my own efforts and training stress, and track improvements. I'm not sure if it would be even possible to correct some of what a two side system might tell you about your pedal stroke. On a different topic, there is no way I could hold 500 W as long as you did in that video. Chapeau.
What a shame, $1,300 and still not right