The BEST GameCube Games? Super Smash Bros Melee vs Wind Waker - Madness (The Legend of Zelda)
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- Опубликовано: 16 янв 2019
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Welcome to episode 2 of Madness Season 4: Best GameCube Games! We're trying to decide not only what are the best games that released on the Nintendo GameCube, but which is THE best game on the GCN. In this episode it's two powerhouses of Nintendo, Super Smash Bros Melee vs The Legend of Zelda the Wind Waker, but who will win?
In this season we have one guest:
Spacehamster of PB and Jeff : bit.ly/2ssNHAV
Madness is a discussion/debate show where we decide what we think is best in any given category of video games, movies, food or anything else. We make a tournament style bracket, and the winning subject of each discussion goes onto the next round until we find a winner.
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Credits:
Madness Theme by TheLivingTombstone
BGM by DJ Cutman & Karamel Kel & Ace Waters & HOME & De Lorra
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#SuperSmashBros #Zelda #GameCube 
Развлечения
Look me in the eye and tell me that Smash is the best Smash game.
Ultimately... Ultimate is the best smash game. It's just that every new smash sets a new bar of amazing. They're all good.
I prefer Ultimate and PM to Melee. But I also rate Wind Waker as #5 on my list of Zeldas. But I for one am happy to see you share your honest opinion regardless of whether or not I share it. You're always entertaining and informative.
I don't see any wind waker tournaments that people are getting excited about anywhere. Also the fact that the HD version is better than the original in every way conceivable kinda makes it a worse game imo. Melee on the other hand doesn't have a remake to overshadow it(ultimate is a sequel that is very different).
I can’t...
@@maximmarcoux8587 Yeah, you had the making of a good argument, and immediately lost it.
25:16 "I don't think Smash is the best Smash game." - Shane, 2019
He's right tho
This is based off of years of research
I agree with that. Every one knows that PlayStation All Star's Battle Royal is better
Melee isn't a smash game. Because years of research.
He's correct
Forrest was the only one to hear that sound foam falling at 11:25. His senses are peaked
Shane actually notices it first, and whispers something to Forrest!
I know right
His sight has gone so bad that his hearing sense became superhuman.
I love that the music in the background has a beat line up with the fall. Click on the time and you will see it fall with a sound queue from the music.
I'm pretty sure Peebs sees it about to fall too. :o
Jared's probably too much of a pro to let a something like a crumbling set to distract him from making content with his friends. xD
Well, this episode we learned that PBG is from a universe where Zelda was a playable character in Smash 64.
Nah he was having good memories of Melee but his cognitive dissidence didn't allow him to mention anything he liked about Melee or disliked about Wind Waker. w/e still love him but its not even a slight mystery how he'll vote if there is a main series zelda in the bracket.
Mandela Effect!
Billy M PeanutButterGamer thought Zelda was playable in Smash 64.
Well, from my childhood it was just:
Luigi
Mario
DK
Link
Samus
C.Falcon
NES
Yoshi
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
and Jigglypuff.
Mandela effect lmao
11:24 watch the background
This comment is a gift
I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that!! 😂
Glen Obryon That’s hilarious 😂
Furst saw it... first I guess.
Ghosts
That random Bracket Generator really is being a real *ugh* for this isnt it?
Just wait till Metroid Prime and RE4. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU CHOOSE BETWEEN THOSE TWO! I don't even like Resident Evil and RE4 is AMAZING but so is Metroid Prime. I think it has to go to RE4 if only for its influence on 3rd person shooters. There's hasn't really been an FPS that you look at and go "yeah Metroid prime was a big influence on this". There's many games inspired by 2D Metroid but not specifically Metroid Prime.
That could be an interesting discussion since for the starting bracket those two games are the most similar in terms of genre and gameplay. They're still really different of course, but not on a Pikmin 2 vs. Double Dash level.
The Pikmin 2 discussion is going to make me so sad.
@@DesignDoc Except Metroid Prime's influence has gone beyond its genre. Soulsborne is heavily inspired by Metroid Prime (Essentially just the Castlevania version of it), and those have inspired many games. Still, I wish it were Prime 2 up there, since I think it's the better of the 2 Prime games on the GC and better than Resi 4, but with Prime 1 it's too damn hard. I wish Johnny were here just so that Prime would win this entire bracket.
Yeah, not only is it hard to compare these two, but both of these could have easily made it to the finals.
This part of Madness was really nerve wrecking; glad Wind Waker made it out alive!
But its easy to see that comparing this and Smash Melee is just really difficult. They're both fun games!
*nerve-racking
You should put a poll in the description so we can vote and see how the fans' opinions compare to yours.
13:24 PBG and Jeff are true homebois, mouthing the word “adventure” at the same time
Link the Faces of Evil vs Sonic Boom
I mean for what it's worth Faces of Evil is still better than Skyward Sword and Boom is at least more engaging than Mania.
impossible!
@@bigmac5252 Better than Boom and Mania? Possibly. Better than Skyward Sword? No way, _mah boi_
At least you can beat Faces of Evil and get some entertainment from the crappy animations. Boom is just dull.
Oh hell no, Skyward Sword may not be OoT, but it’s pretty good.
Yeah, Ganondorf in Wind Waker was probably the best Ganondorf in all the games. The harshness of the lands he was born in was one of the things that motivated him to take over Hyrule. He didn't want to live in the harsh and unforgiving lands of the Gerudo Desert. Perhaps at some point, he had hoped that his people would not have to live in such a harsh land?
When Nintendo starts working on their next Zelda game, they should write Ganondorf in a similar fashion as to how they wrote him in Wind Waker. Hell, I'd kinda like to see them write the next Ganondorf in the style of Kain, wherein he starts out as a trickster-rival King of Thieves kind of character, but gradually comes to discover his connection to Demise, recognizing the cruel role that destiny had prepared for him, and endeavours to escape his fate as the Dark Lord. In his zeal to defy his destiny, his actions cause much of the conflict as he searches for the pieces of the Triforce, with Link always a step or two behind him.
In the end, Ganondorf manages to draw out and confront Demise, but is unable to take him down alone. Only by allowing his Power to work in tandem with Zelda's Wisdom and Link's Courage is Demise finally obliterated, the chains of destiny seemingly shattered at long last. In the following cutscene, we see Ganondorf walk away from the battle, content that he is finally free from the machinations of fate, only to stop if the player draws the Master Sword in his direction. He makes a remark about how Link seems to still be following the script of fate, before suggesting that he contemplate whether his actions are truly his own, then suggesting that the player not take such a rash course of action after all that has happened. Whether we let it all go, or continue the cycle, would be in our hands.
I feel like this particular "script" for Ganondorf would work doubly well if, in Nintendo's recent toying with fully-voiced characters in Zelda, Ganondorf ends up being voiced by Simon Templeton. Seriously, listen to him as Kain, then try to hear Wind Waker Ganondorf's lines read by Simon Templeton. IMHO, it would be perfect.
This is also one of the most badass Ganondorf's. In WW, there's no hint of dark power or connection to any eldrich horrors like Demise, he's just a really REALLY strong dude. As the ocean begins to collapse all around you, Link with the fully beefed up Master Sword and Zelda using the Light Arrows and Magic double team him and he's STILL winning for most of the fight; dual wielding katanas like he just came out of Soul Calibur. It felt like a real, desperate fight to the death and the finisher where you beat him with a counter attack into driving the Master Sword through his freakin' face was amazing. This Ganondorf and the one in Twilight Princess were the best ones and I like you I wish they'd do more with the character, especially since they're expanding on the story of the Zelda world now.
I agree. I've wanted to see for a while now how Demise and Ganondorf relate. Zelda being the reincarnation of Hylia I can accept because Zelda hasn't been fleshed out as a character. BUT I wouldn't be able to swallow the idea of Ganondorf as a reincarnation. I like how this character is fully realized at the end of his days. It would weaken him to be a mere reincarnation. I would like to see how he's absorbed Demise's hate but still remained Ganondorf. Remember that it's always the same Ganon but a different Link every time.
Its a good thing we have the two ganondorf dragmire animations by rwanlink
GmodPlusWoW I disagree, Ocarina Ganondorf is the best Ganon because he's a villain there. Wind Waker blows for Ganon because he's not really speaking as a big threat. Also we only see both Ganondorf in WW.
Ocarina of Time is the best because he actually achieved his goal and his presence can be felt throughout the whole game.
I love Madness. It's so cool seeing all my favorite RUclipsrs coming together and arguing about great games. :)
SEASON 3 will be the butt of the fanbase's jokes.
I wonder which game Jirard would have voted for.
@@Scorpion122178 Probably Wind Waker. He loves that game. I personally would've voted it also.
Jessie Basham, it was fine.
My mom’s boyfriend sold my copy of The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker not long after I received it for my birthday in 2005, because he didn’t like it... I was pissed. Most ironic part was that my mom bought it.
Did you make sure he couldn't give you any brothers or sisters?
mikallink He made sure of that himself, by cheating on my mom years later in ‘09 and marrying another woman less than a year from then.
Eww, I bet you guys lived in a trailer.
They needed more years of research.
Can't believe Salem's audacity. Saying Melee players aren't part of the smash community is ridiculous. Without us there may not even be a competitive smash scene. Melee popularized tournaments and the competitive mindset. Ultimate was given several tweaks to please more competitive players. Their target demographic for that tactic was Melee players. Salem basically owes his career to Melee.
@@philmur18 Look, what Salem said was stupid, especially the immature way he said it and some of the unnecessary and ridiculous personal attacks he made, but it came from a place of partially justifiable hurt at the way some members of the Melee scene have treated the other half of the community over the last decade. It's true that there were Melee elitists that were dismissive of Brawl, that harassed Brawl players for their choice of game being too casual or braindead, and that in turn created a chain effect of Brawl and 4 players hating that elitist attitude and driving a wedge into the community. (The irony there being that his initial statement would've only made that divide worse, had everyone not collectively told him to shut up.) He also made the reasonable argument that some Melee players used the hype around 4 to build their careers without ever taking the game seriously, then going back to Melee. Basically using the game while also bashing it, and he was worried that the same thing will happen with Ultimate. I recommend watching Omni's video on this, because he was the only one publicly showing the smallest hint of sympathy towards Salem, and dude's been around the block. Omni is one of, perhaps THE most knowledgeable public figures about the whole competitive community- Melee, Brawl, PM, and 4 (sorry 64).
Still, I can appreciate the memes, and Salem deserved the backlash he got. I just wish he presented it better.
philmur18, most of that is wrong lol, melee tournaments were awful until scar showed up and at that point brawl was already out and brawl actually killed melee for awhile, he does not owe anything to him and it is pretty clear that there was a brawl/smash 4 and a melee community.
Um, you're the one that's wrong my friend. Melee still started it all and brawl died out and melee came back. I'm fully aware of the entire history of competitive smash
This is looking like it's probably going to be the winner of the losers bracket vs. the winners bracket winner.
I know they've got links to the artists' various channels, but does anyone know what the song starting around 16:39 is?
It doesn't matter who won, like I said, very fleshed out opinions about the games before voting is important. And yes Furst you're right, sometimes it boils down to personal preferences in some cases, but as long as both games have had good valid points on their side before voting, that's when your personal preferences is valid. I really liked and enjoyed this episode!
Madness is the smash Bros of Normal boots
POWERnug 77
My favorite thing ever
anybody else see that drop from the ceiling at 11:25? lmao
I will point out, just in reference to Wind Waker having a slow sailing speed because of hardware limitations, that the Wind Waker randomizer hacked the Swift Sail from Wind Waker HD in to the gamecube game with zero performance lost. Even when playing on original hardware. The sailing speed was absolutely a deliberate choice to make the world feel bigger than it physically is.
Wind waker's best version is the wii u. The changes made it so much better and replayable. I wish they had mention the remake...
They can’t mention the remake, this is about the GameCube version.
@@biffyguybiffy6292 oh, I see. I said that because in the other episodes they mentioned remakes and such. But now they kinda created a rule to not compare. You are right.
Hearing ProJared and PBG say they're OG Wind Waker stans makes my heart happy.
This was a really rough bracket spot, for either game. Wind Waker is an amazing game, arguably my favorite in the entire series, and the sheer detail that went into it for a GameCube game is, like Jared said about the draw distance, jaw-dropping. The backstory of the characters, the components it added to the lore, and even just quality-of-life touches like Link's facial expressions make it an amazing package. It's one of the rare Zelda games that defied the initial hate and became beloved, and that's a merit in itself.
That said, I likely would have voted Melee, given that when you ask someone to name a Nintendo GameCube game to you, it's Melee 9 times out of 10. Akin to the N64 brackets, one of the GameCube's biggest strengths was its multiplayer - it may not have had a Halo (though TimeSplitters 2 was hype as hell), but with games like Double Dash, Kirby Air Ride, Custom Robo, and several Mario Parties, it was very robust. Melee was, and still is, the spearhead of that entire notion, and some of my fondest memories of the GameCube relate directly to playing it. It aged pretty well graphically, its play modes are robust, the character roster is strong, the soundtrack is amazing... all things we already know, but they came together to create what is IMO the consummate GameCube game.
(Still not mad that Wind Waker won tho
BensonMakesMusic Except Wind Waker isn't amazing when it's super slow and subpar compared to past Zeldas and even Melee.
The amount you guys try not step on any toes from either fan base is palpable haha I adore this series
the editing has improved even more! great job guys!
"Screw you, haters!"
Proceeds to hate on Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.
Me and my cousins used to do Great fox bats only
Really enjoy the set of this season and the presentation very cool and professional. This show is criminally underrated and it's just a joy to watch . Thanks for the good content
I find it funny that, back in the N64 season, Jared was basically saying Ocarina’s music isn’t good because it’s ripped off from A Link to the Past (which is not entirely true) and here, he is praising Smash’s music (even though Melee has like two original songs).
This truly is madness.
I can't believe they didn't discuss and compare these games' intros...
Melee - visually incredible for the GameCube; looks better than most wii-u games and gets your heart racing to play smash!
Wind Waker - sets the scene perfectly and has incredible music and story telling which just sucks you into the history and lore of Zelda.
Probably the best 2 intros to any games I've played
I can't believe they didn't talk about any of the problems with Wind Waker. Like how its pacing commits suicide during the most important part of the game with a long grindy triforce treasure hunt that consists of farming rupees for hours on end.
Like, yeah they are truly cool, but not important at all
A little tip: for the next seasons, put all the names of the games in a hat and pick names during a youtube/twitch livestream.
What happened at 11:24?
Honestly, the trophies in Melee are what make the game for me. Seeing all that Nintendo history is what made me a video game fan.
Is no one gonna say anything about the foam piece that fell of the Dragon Quest Slime Thing
When?
@@zoim4131 11:24
I think Lee fixed it towards the end too because while he's offscreen it gets fixed. xD
Did everyone else notice that piece of phome fall onto the slime plushie at 11:24
Ah, the matchup I dreaded, but I'm glad it's over.
You guys hit most of the points I was thinking of, which is great.
I think both games have huge staying power.
Wind Waker has it's unique style and heavy exploration-based play that you really can't get from any other game, I'd even argue it's still a largely different experience comparing to BoTW.
Smash 64 was the origins, Brawl has it's story, 4 has it's collectibles and Ultimate has it's fleshed-out character and "everything is here" mentality, but Melee really was the full package that balances every other game. A decent story, decent amount of collectibles, mostly-good character roster, and the abundance of extra modes. Melee had the best iteration of Break the Targets, Home-Run and Multi-Man.
11:24 we're did that fall from?
From the upper corner of the room, it’s acoustic foam placed in the corner to absorb sound and prevent echoes.
I'm glad the essence of thing has become a running joke lol
This was probably their best video of madness yet. I feel the GCs top 5 are all pretty interchangeable.
My Top 5 list would be:
1. Metroid Prime
2. F-Zero GX
3. Animal Crossing
4. LoZ: Wind Waker
5. Smash Bros Melee
1. Mario Sunshine
2. Pokemon XD Gale of Darkness
3. Harvest Moon A Wonderful Life
4. Mario Kart Double Dash
5. Wind Waker
TTYD, Melee, Mario Sunshine, RE4, REmake @@dytrus8203
I wholeheartedly agree with PBG here. A humanoid enemy is always more intimidating than a monster because monsters are evil because they're monsters but Ganondorf chose to do evil stuff. He makes a conscious decision to be evil and that's always way more interesting than a raging monster.
This season is so much better. Kudos on good discussions and debate
Please let Wind Waker win, please let Wind Waker win, PLEASE LET WIND WAKER WIN!!!!!!!
Edit: *SPOILERS*
I watched the video and it did. Woot :) Like has been said though in the video, it definitely is comparing a 98/100 game to a 99/100 game and not knowing which is which; preference will be what decides it more than anything else for your favorite.
Yea it did
As a fellow Persona fan
I am happy to see another one
As someone who knows Melee is even more timeless and better than WW
I am unhappy to see this comment.
@@darkthz2895 I can't even say I disagree, or at least in the timeless and better aspect anyways. I'd say both WW and Melee stand the test of time remarkably well, gameplay wise- minus the character imbalance- Melee is smoother than WW and while I like WW's soundtrack, Melee's is just better. I obviously still prefer Wind Waker, but I don't even wanna even try to argue that as anything other than my subjective opinion.
Plus it's always nice meeting another Persona fan. Even if I respectfully disagree in this instance I want to emphasize the respect; trying to argue the objective qualities of each game is a sure way to get someone feeling the opposite of that very quickly :)
@@GentlemanGamer94
Of course man
I actually genuinely apprecuate tge fact that you did not get all mad like many Zelda fans do
Same goes for Melee though
I think Smash has an unfair advantage over Zelda because of how much content it has
It is a very solid competitive game
A very fun casual one
Has single player
Has soundtrack from all over the place and so much more
Zelda is still great
@@darkthz2895 No problem; as my username might imply, I unironically do enjoy having discussions about favorite or preferred games/franchises/what have you vs. trying to have an argument about it. Discussions are fun; arguments just make me want to take my frustration out on a big bang burger.
And yeah, both games are great and yeah; I'd definitely agree that Smash has more content. It certainly has more staying power anyways; most of us who owned a GameCube have played Melee for dozens if not hundreds of hours and while many still occasionally play WW, many more still often play Melee.
How long that's gonna last in the wake of Smash Ultimate, I'm not sure. Still, the fact that this is a game still being competitively and even casually played 16 or 17ish years after its release is still impressive.
Oh no
I think I could have easily gone with either game here, although one thing about smash that may have swayed me that wasn't talked about much was how great it is at introducing games to people, especially new gamers. I can remember when I was younger and still somewhat new to gaming and spending hours looking at all the trophies and learning about different game series and getting interested and excited at the prospect of possibly playing them. In the discussion it was mentioned how the game made Fire Emblem popular in the states, and personally I loved playing as Roy and it made me want to play Fire Emblem. To me it sort of served as a database for all the best Nintendo games and characters which added to an already stellar game to play
Whats the song playing at 4:30
Very unpopular opinion here, but I feel like WindWaker is the only Zelda went from one of the most underappreciated Zelda games to the most overappreciated Zelda game. It's a good, well-designed games, but I just don't see it as a masterpiece like most other people make it out to be.
Madness!
Honestly. This is just about, if not the best, discussion you guys have ever had on this show.
This was a great episode. You guys probably could've gone on for another episode talking about these two.
Side note, the wind temple boss music is my favorite original score in video games period.
11:24 the thing fell on the dragon quest slime
I hope the thing makes a come back
@@Jordan-tu4ki w i l l n o p e
Come on Windwaker get the win even though melee is probably going to win by reputation.
Melee is a crucial piece of gaming history so I know what's gonna happen. Even though WW is a beautiful mythical world to get lost in that I wish would win.
@@Octambulism I actually disagree on melee being a crucial part of gaming (unless you mean in the competitive sense). Yea it is a fun party game that I played countless hours as a kid but it feels outdated and such. Windwaker on the other hand isn't my favorite 3d Zelda but it added to the action adventure genre in a way that I feel melee doesn't in its respective genre. I loved both games but Windwaker gets my vote.
@@notinthecartel I distinctly remember my younger brother inviting my friends to play smash when I had them over at my house and realizing it was his "safe space" to indirectly get to interact and know older people in a virtual space that was already comfortable and not an unknown to him. That is what Smash is: it is gaming's de facto place to hang out with people.
Not long ago a video was posted on how some COPS that were called in on a party decided instead to smash with the people there. That is the magic of smash: you might now know someone but chances are they know how to smash. Thus it doubles as a fun space to get know people and a comfortable activity to have as you hang with old friends.
And again, I say this as someone who vastly prefers WW and its immersive world. But Smash is to anyone under 35 what board games are to grandmothers: that space where you do something fun while hanging out with YOUR PEOPLE. And in what way is this not adding to the fighing genre? It added to the competing; it added fun even if you weren't the best at it.
@Groisu That's up to opinion so I will respect yours but Zelda games are extremely replayable in my opinion.
Jose Lagunes Agreed. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve played twilight princess
I wish that you guys would put the bracket on the normal boots website
I love the music in these videos! Where do you find these songs, so I can listen too? I know which games they’re from but it sounds like remixes and not like the OST.
Idk if remix is the right word, but like redone in a different way
I'm in 0:32 right now, but I want to say this: Fire is gonna rain from the sky if Melee goes to Losers. I'm not saying I'm gonna do that, though. I'm just saying that it could happen if many fanboys of this game watch this video and that situation happens, XD!
Like the title of the series: THIS, is MADNESS!!, haha
im pissed, melee is the perfect game and it lost, dislike, unsub.. jk I knew this would happen
tl;dr: Smash Bros is great but maybe not for the reason the creators wanted and isn't as polished as other Nintendo games. Game is still fantastic, but there are edges around it that maybe don't hold up. Also, very replayable.
Wind Waker is very polished, very fun, has a lot of elements that hold up today, and is one of the best games from one of the most important franchise in gaming history.
The Long Part:
So, on one hand you have Super Smash Bros Melee. A game so impactful, it began a competitive scene that, despite Nintendo's reluctancy to support, persists and thrives to this day. Melee began the tradition of including more characters and helped a lot of flagging franchises (Mother, Fire Emblem) find new life in the West (not so much Mother, but it did help get the game into the more public/general consciousness). Replayability is potentially infinite, since it's competitive by nature and very easy for newer players to get into and had a pretty high skill ceiling so the more hardcore can learn and grow. Also, with the inclusion of different characters from different franchises, it allows the game to feel like a celebration of Nintendo's past accomplishments. When a Smash game came out, going forward, it became an event. A party. However, the game is rushed and you do feel that when you play. There are also a lot of bugs and glitches that happen quite a bit if you're pushing the game and a lot of the "depth" that the more extreme players have found were mostly unintentional. So, it's a great game but not the most polished game Nintendo is known for.
Wind Waker on the other hand is one of the best games to come out of one of the most important franchises in Gaming History. The music is one of the strongest OSTs Nintendo has ever produced, the style of the art works in such a way you can still play it today and not say it looks bad in the slightest. An HD remaster only (mostly) added a different lighting engine and bumped up the resolution of the graphics. Also, the original game was a programming MARVEL! With the decision to go with that art style, it allowed for a much larger world and with some fantastic "tricks" the team figured out a way to have a game with nearly no loading screens. It's almost a seemless game. The characters are fun and colorful and full of expressions and personality. The gameplay is quick and responsive and with added counter attacks, you're never really left without options unlike in previous games (N64 Zeldas) where it felt you had to wait for an opening. Wind Waker allowed you to make your own. The only issue I can see and agree with is that the game is a bit long in the tooth and one of the quests you need to do in order to reach the last parts of the game is a bit long. And, of course, if you don't like the sailing, it's hard to enjoy the game. Also, the plot and story beats aren't too amazing. It's pretty standard "Good vs Evil" here.
Personally opinion here, I think Wind Waker should win. It's so polished, so well crafted and thought through. Melee was a great evolution but it was rushed and you do feel it in the polish and presentation. Melee doesn't quite hold up in a few regards but Wind Waker does.
Yeah, I respect people saying they'd prefer Melee over Wind Waker. It's still a very fun game.
"tl;dr" is usually slapped on the end of an essay, not in front of one.
I agree with you for almost everything! I just disagree about Melee helping Mother, because Ness was already introduced in the original Smash (and Lucas was introduced in Brawl), so I don´t believe Melee made such a difference. But I agree Fire Emblem has a lot of recognition because of Melee.
I would also add, that Wind Waker really gave personality to Link and Zelda, most Zelda games makes them cardboard cuts. In Wind Waker both have a lot a personality, and they carry the story amazingly because of that.
Personally, choosing Wind Waker would be really easy, I don´t have the attachment people have with Melee and I prefer the other entries of the Smash series. But what wins for me is how well made Wind Waker is, gameplay, characters, dungeons, art style, OST, companion, world, side quests... Man, what a great game, glad someone put in words what I was also thinking.
I respect your opinion but I just don't understand how anyone can say objectively that windwaker is extremely polished and has not "edges". Are we talking about the Wii U version? Because the Gamecube version I remember had a pacing killing quest right in the most important part of the game that made tons of people legit quite out of boredom. No one can tell me they had fun with the triforce hunting bit in the original game. The rupee farming for Tingle alone was enough to put me to sleep.
Hell no. I'll put a disclaimer that Wind Waker is a game I've played many, many times, including from start to finish in a single sitting, but the game (especially in its latter stages) is FAR from being polished. Most of the praise provided here are for the artistic style and but as for substance? Two dungeons where you have to annoyingly drag a partner around, a much-criticized triforce quest, a largely unfinished hyrule consisting of a single path, and a somewhat lackluster/ uninteresting final dungeon (apart from the final boss)... so there are fewer levels, and those levels are decidedly inferior in comparison to previous Zelda titles (Ocarina of Time & A Link to the Past). Combined with slow sea movement (unless you use the backward swim glitch... yes this game has some glitches too if you push the envelope), and lack of difficulty (the drawback of giving the option to use the A button is you can just wait for it to appear and it'll easy help destroy whatever bokoblin, moblin, or darknut is in your path... oh and you have to wait for it). Windwaker is still a great game and one of the best zelda titles out there, but it was also rushed and I can't see it being better than Super Smash Brothers Melee which, despite its very limited timeframe for development (13 months!!!), is a system seller (it convinced me to get the Gamecube), a huge leap forward for the Smash Bros franchise, an enormous step up in content and mechanics that presents (to this day) the sharpest gameplay that continues to be pushed in astonishing new ways.
Here's a fun idea for Madness: a quick one off episode with a certain bracket, where you put 2 games or whatever against each other, rapid-fire one after the other, and the guests get like 30 seconds to think about it, and vote. No debate. Just a fun quick video in between real episodes/seasons of Madness.
Tbh thought another window had opened with an EckhartsLadder video at 23:00. I was like where is this coming from there's no other tabs open lol. Then I realized it was from this video using the same song for BGM
Holy Ish, Wind Waker really won!!
Wind Waker is one of my favorite videos games in the world it best win I'm rooting for it I know that Austin can get this as the Zelda guy
Omg it's Ajoosh my favourite gamer boy
Omg it's syko hello !!
At the end I definitely heard the same music Eckhart's Ladder always uses.
Thoughtful Insanity resonance is the name of the song I think
I am so ready for this!
Welp, can't choose, it's a tie, Lee can choose both, he has too, you can't choose, it's impossible, both win.
Eh Melee
Umm... what?
Thank you ProJared for being the only voice of reason. Melee should have taken this.
It's all a matter of opinion dude, there's no objectively correct answer
Melee is a broken, unfinished game with mechanics that just don’t work. Wind waker is a complete game.
Broken unfinished game that doesnt work? Lmao dude the game is still the best esports smash game with an insanely high skill gap
James Naum, the competitive scene is more about breaking it than playing it.
@@biffyguybiffy6292 how sakurai was aware of wavedashing and shines
I just wanted to make a quick comment, especially to ease the minds of the dope creators putting this together. This Season is great! It's the way you guys handle these discussions that make returning for new seasons of this show worth it. I personally would have picked Smash, but the way you guys talked about both games, I'm not upset with this decision at all. It's the fact that you guys take the proper time to compliment and critique each game that I don't leave these discussions feeling disappointed. I. Love. This.
Really liked this episode, full of good comparisons, and I completely agree with the decision. Loving the points that Jeff is waiting for and then making, I really like how he has been waiting then saying what he thinks at the end, not to mention the points move the conversation along.
I just saw Jeff's long skinny anorexic-looking arms and I can't stop staring at them. Are they weird looking or am I just mental?
Edit: might be because he's next to big boy Shaun.
Edit2: no his arms are still weird.
I've put on like 30 pounds and my arms never got bigger - feelsbadsinthechatplz
Almost every single game boils down to personal preference FURST, but there is only one single objective answer to all this....Metroid Prime is the best Gamecube game and if it doesnt win im going to punch a Makar Plushie.
Nah. Its good and i love the chozo architecture but the backtracking is terrible
I love Metroid Prime, but I bet it won't make it far because this panel probably is not Metroid fans
PBG: "Was Zelda not in Smash 64?"
*camera pans to Nick dying*
Amazing thank you
I really like that the episodes are getting longer.
I know not everybody is into competitive melee, but the fact that the skill ceiling is virtually non-existent and the replay value, as a result, is theoretically infinite makes melee the better game. Without any hint of question.
Only if that's all a game is to you different people look for different things in games.
But replay value doesn’t make a game, especially when the replay value only applies to certain demographics, while Wind Waker is a lot more accessible.
Hbox def is the skill ceiling atm, and it's very telling that the year 20XX is still an alternate timeline we will never achieve.
On the realness though, Hbox shows that the skill ceiling is def there and there's been a plateau for a while. On paper, fox should practically always win but sadly that is not the case :/
In terms of standing the tests of time, Wind Waker easily wins. Looking at its HD remake on the Wii U and it looks like it was pulled directly from the GameCube, compared to the more realistic Twilight Princess. WW also proved that Nintendo was right in their decision to go with the cel shading since Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild are also cel shaded.
As for Melee, it Ultimate hadn't come out, I would say it's still the definitive Smash for me. While I'm not a fan of the "Final Destination No Items" bit (I always had Pokéballs active), I do see the merit of it. Unfortunately, the competitive scene is boring IMO. It's either Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon (I think) and no one else. Granted I was never a fan of the competitive scene in any game anyways.
Ultimately, my vote goes to Wind Waker. As said above, WW stood the tests of time and visually impacted Zelda in a lot of ways.
I disagree. I definitely prefer tp to wind waker. Im just saying if you hooked up a gamecube to a crt tv and played both games. Twilight princess is definitely the better looking game. Its a shame it wasn't originally released on one of the later consoles because then it would just completely obliterate wind waker in the art department. ..not that it still doesn't. Thats being said ive always loathed wind waker and i have not finished it to this day. Boring sailing. Unappealing art style. For me at least and the character designs just dont do it for me. Especially gannondorf. Looks much better in TP.
Melee also has Jigglypuff, Peach, Marth, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Yoshi, Samus and the occassional Ganon and Luigi mains popping up here and then. The games not as unbalanced as many people stretch it out to be but the fans still love watching the game despite its low cast cause of its depth that it still carries to this day. But still if you enjoy watching more characters over Melees gameplay, you do you. Either way Im glad Ultimates taken the path its done, Melee definitely had an influence in making the game less defensive and slow to where it can even be exciting to Melee folk.
jvstice56 Your reasoning for why melee should lose is pretty flawed. Just because better games in the series have come out later doesn't mean that a previous game is bad. By that logic, Wind Waker should lose because BOTW is better. Also: You clearly know nothing favor the competitive community if you genuinely think it's only Fox, Falco, and Capt Falcon, so you're in no position to talk about it (That doesn't mean that you can't have an opinion, it just means that your opinion on competitive melee doesn't mean much)
@@SeightJam this is very true, in pretty much every tournament you'll see at least a fox, Falco, sheik, Marth, peach, jigglypuff, ice climbers, samus, and a good amount of, docs, pikas, Luigi's, regular Mario's, and there is like that one Yoshi, ganondorf,roy, and young link player.
SeightJam took the words right out of my mouth
I miss this. I miss this dynamic
I'm glad that Shane pointed out that Melee's exploits aren't too different from speedrunning exploits.
Melee is overrated
My pick is definitely Wind Waker because I would rather just play Ultimate than Melee.
Id rather play BOTW than Wind Waker. Melee wins.
@@jayjax229 Right lol his logic makes no sense
So I would rather die than live sooooo....
My depression is eternal
And thats why I don't hold it against them, as a casual thats 100% understandable even though I like Melee more because I do play it seriously with people
Christian Eulinberg
Well that’s why he said it was his pick, not that Wind Waker was a better game, neither game is a better game than the other, it’s all up to personal preference and voting.
One thing The Wind Waker could have used: *Fishing*.
You're on an ocean; don't tell me that there aren't things living in it!
Anyone see Forrest Lee’s face when that piece of the wall fell in the background? 11:23
If you want to know who wins....
Turok
LET'S HUNT SOME MOTHER FUCKIN DINOSAURS
Melee is just superior
To anyone who says wavedashing, L-cancelling, etc are glitches
They aren't
They are exploits however
And even then
May I ask, what is the problem?
Why does that have to take away?
If anything it has provided life to the game by making it more of a challenge.
Melee will still garner thousands upon thousands of people to play and even more to watch.
high-level Melee is a spectacle to watch.
@Voidaken
Like Heaven, thanks for asking
Thats just the nature of fighting games. Someone might play botw once and smash every day and still think botw is better. Game time isnt a good indication of how good it is.
@@andrewhagen9343
Truly
From Ken to Leffen
It has truly been well over a decade worth of content
Yeah but Melee doesn't have piranha plant soooo
Pause at 0:07 (Jared's face)
When a kid who's been yelling and running nonstop in a restaurant trips, bangs his head, and starts crying.
Really loving this season. Top notch panel!
As much as I love Smash, I hope Melee loses. Not only is Wind Waker an Amazing game in its own merit, but Melee is an incredibly broken game. It suffers heavily from a very rushed development cycle, it has numerous flaws, its not polished, and its honestly a glitchy mess. Dont get me wrong, its a really fun game and i spent almost all of my childhood alternating between melee and double dash, but if a game like Melee was released today that had as many issues in similar ways, people would go insane over how much they hate it. Exhibit A: Fallout 76.
you just suck at the game
I cant believe its 2019 and people still think Melee is a broken glitchy mess smh
lmao how is melee a glitchy mess in any way?
Nah, wind waker is a garbage heap.
How the fuck is melee comparable to 76?? Take the glue out of your diet
Umm...... I love smash as much as the next guy, but umm... the winner is Zelda, No contest
minirob2 Lol not even close. Melee is easier a much batter game
@@SeightJam Yeah it's an amazing game. I actually put more than 2000 hours on that game vs the 100 or so I put on Wind Waker. Melee is awesome, but objectively to me Wind Waker is better. It's like comparing to 10 out of 10 games.
minirob2 Its hard to say objectively better when the game isnt even in the same genre, just doesnt add up.
Theres no real exact more correct answer when it comes to these 2, in the end it all adds up to prefferance which is why I feel objectively wouldnt be the correct word unless the games were at least similar but they arent.
minirob2 Yeah both games are so good that it's hard to pick just one, But I don't think it's "no contest" between the two. I personally think Melee is a better game overall
@@gatorssbm I know they're different genres but in their respective space I think Zelda is better. Yes it's opinion based and I'm not saying Melee is bad by any means, it's far from it actually. It's just Zelda is great.
Woo! So glad Wind Waker won.
I have such an axe to grind against competitive Melee that this match-up was a no brainer for me.
...Why would you hold "competitive Melee" against Melee itself? Madness is about judging the GAMES, not their fanbases.
The toughest first round match up by far. However, if someone were to tie me up, hoist me above their head, walk up to a pit of fire and said "Pick one or I'm throwing you in!", I'd have to go with Super Smash Bros. Melee.
neither choice is bad, but wind waker is definitely not the best LOZ game.
Jared has a deep seething hatred for PBG and its unsettling to watch them sitting so close to mutual choking distance
How do you know he hates pbg?
Well, I don't blame him.
PBG is absolutely cringe. His behaviour in the N64 season was deplorable. The worst kind of fanboy
I don't think it's a hatred for each other but their opinions; ProJared is critical based on what he likes versus PBG who is emotional... essentially.
I would also like to know this
Wait what? Aren't Jared and PBG known as THE duo of buddies in Normal Boots?
The Ultimate Bromance :
Jared mentioning the word "Adventure" and Austin & Jeff just look at each other and whisper "Adventuuure~".
Just wanna say, coming out of not being able to finish watching last season, this season has been amazing so far and appreciate the quality of the conversation so far.
Oh look. The most overrated Smash game and what was formerly the most underrated 3D Zelda. I wonder what's going to happen.
dude i love sailing for ten minutes to play the actual game
@@Darkliff2 And as a counterpoint, dude, I love a game that's fifty percent intended mechanics, twenty percent glitch, thirty percent jank. XD
@@tuvyamaeir4684 I don't get why everyone uses the unintended mechanics as a reason to call the game overrated? What, do beautiful mistakes not exist to you?
@@Wingsaber With my last comment I was returning snide cynicism with more snide cynicism. My honest opinion on Melee is that I find it the least fun to actually pick up and play out of all the Smash games, the physics are janky and not very approachable, and the character balance is weaker than all the others. (Except for Brawl, though even then, remove one and a half characters and problem solved.)
@@tuvyamaeir4684 git gud kid
I hate melee, downvote button is just below
It seems you've found some friends instead!
The sound foam fell as soon as Austin clapped his knees
The Great Sea music is the auditory definition of what Adventure feels like
This was an especially great episode because both of these games are considered masterpieces making it just feel like a huge debate and i am very satisfied with the outcome
I think what makes this matchup easy for me is the fact that it's a celebration of great games vs. a great game itself.
Love this! I really hope one day you guys cover the SNES! :D
I'm sure the entire time they were talking about wind Waker, Austin was just internally screaming about how nobody voted for Majora's Mask over Ocarina
as soon as Jared said he literally burned the smash soundtrack onto a CD to listen to while mowing the lawn, I knew what he was gonna vote for
Honestly, this should have been an hour long special.
I think the exploits and glitches in melee make it just a much richer game with tons of techniques, secrets, tricks to discover, people are still discovering new things in melee to this day, it’s incredibly impressive how deep this game is, especially for being made over ten years ago and made only in a about a year, and I know a lot people don’t really get the competitive scene as it may seem daunting but it’s so much fun learning all the secret and hidden techniques with your friends and using your newfound tech against them. the GameCube is my melee machine. *edit* the intro alone is divine, also two words TARGETS THEME.
Good discussions for a hard comparison. Glad to hear nearly nothing but positives for both games.