Or when the regular road locomotives are too heavy to go on lighter spur trackage so a smaller unit has to be part of the consist. It then gets cut off to do the switching. CNW used to have to do that in Oconto, WI.
@@killerbee6310 Speaking of lighter units, my friend says that he used a bulldozer or something like it to pull a bunch of cars in a manufacturer's yard. Does that seem possible? If so, then what is the smallest thing that could pull 1 or 2 cars? I figure that a pickup truck on metal wheels is pushing our luck, but might be able to. I ask, because this could be a way for a small startup short line to cut corners.
Dropping cars was one of the moves that was made illegal durning my career. Them doing that took a lot of fun and excitement out of the job, so I can understand what banning alcohol use meant to the old heads.
@@cdavid8139 That is why ya carry some 2x4 s. So you can use the engine to "pole" the cars out of the way. We called that failed drop "frogging yourself in." The other interesting drop we used to do was a pull car was in a spur with a facing point switch. We would leave our drag on the main, reach in nose first and pull out the car. Then we would kick that car up the main (uphill), line the switch and run the engine back into the spur. Gravity would then let that car stop and start rolling back against your drag. Don't be like me an forget to line the switch back for the car to roll by. We called that move a "Dutch" drop
@@GrumpyOldRailroader I hear ya grump. I've never 'poled' a car or at least I won't admit to it. I have worked jobs with a 'pole' or '4x4' but never a 2x4. I have done a 'dutch' drop though we did not call it that. And while I never forgot to line a switch on a drop, it is possible I missed a few over the years
@@cdavid8139 We carried a pipe also. Came in handy when you run through a switch and need to fix it but doesn't work on those heavy duty main line switches
Great Video, yes there is always a way to switch any car, you just have to have time, brains, and a train. Also, has this railroad not herd of weed killer, lol
Thank you for this switching demonstration. I enjoy watching train crews making switch moves. I am fascinated by the way that the conductor determines what must be done in each situation and then he proceeds to get the job done in the least number of movements. (Posted on 17 September 2024 at 2125 CDT.)
@@killerbee6310 It is fascinating to watch the E&LS switching gondolas at the Alter Metal plant in East Kingsford, Michigan when Jason Asselin catches the crew switching that location. Switching the Alter Metal plant is done by a northbound train because of the location of the switch. The position of the empty gondolas in the train determines how the crew will perform the switching moves. (Posted 17 September 2024 at 2159 CDT.)
Well, as a conductor, you have to do a lot of work outside and you usually work 12 hour shifts every single day. Our goal is to get back in that locomotive with our work done as quickly as possible allowing for safety!
@@zackbobby5550 Well said Zack. I always said a good conductor is like a good chess player...you are always working several moves ahead in the mind. I remember early in my training an engineer (who was also a conductor) shouted at me over the radio to "Hey....let the locomotive do the work" ..which was his way of saying I was walking too much. Never forgot it.
On the railroad we call this a "two engine move" because, of course, it can only be done with 2 engines lol. Very useful in lots of cases, but extremely annoying and time consuming.
Could you explain how multiple engines work together, is there more than one engineer? Are they producing full power without a engineer? How does that work...thank you Dean
The big fat MU (Multiple Unit) cable connecting the two locos allows an engineer on the controlling locomotive to control the other units that are MU'd in the consist
Piggybacking off Mr Grumpy's comment, whatever the engineer in the lead engine does with the throttle, brakes, sanders, etc, the trailing units in the consist will mimic. The m.u. cables from engine to engine relay the instructions back to each trailing unit.
Piggybacking off of what both of them have said, I wouldn't be surprised if radio signals are also used. At 1 time, in the train yards, a big cordless control box was used to control an engine for rearranging [switching?] cars. Also, sometimes, other engines are just being pulled to somewhere else, and are not using their power, if I understand correctly.
@eugenetswong 3 different things. MU controls all locos in a multi engine consist. RCL is remote control locomotive controlled by a person on the ground with a controller. DPU is Distributed Power which allows the engineer on a train to control the lead consist and 1 or 2 helper consists
Locals just pick up the cars from the industries as they get 'em. It's the yard crew's job to worry about the car order once the local is back in the yard and the cars from the local are either being assembled into pickups for passing mainline freights or being assembled into a mainline freight originating from the yard.
@@davidwhiting1761 Agreed Mr. Whiting. Of course all railroaders have experienced situations where locals might "re-block" some cars in transit. As with anything in railroading there is the 'norm' and the 'exception'
I had to laugh - because on a model railroad after you get frustrated you can just pick up the cars and set them down where you want them. Once at WC one of our Sales-Marketing ladies was recounting a conversation she just had with a customer. The customer wanted us to do all sorts of specific car placements and spotting and shuffling around of cars. The Sales-Marketing lady finally grew frustrated and said "Look - what do you think this is - a f***ing model railroad??"
Why not rebuild the 22 crossing and wye? You'd eliminate the shuttle crew and a significant number of moves. It could be done for a reasonable price if bid out to a local outfit, and there's funding programs if you can fill out the forms.
Let's estimate that to rebuild the crossing (if the state let you) it would cost $1 million. True you could then eliminate the switch move. But how often does this happen> What is the health of the industry receiving the cars on this move. Is the move infrequent enough so that crew time isn't really a factor?
I stared at the thumbnail for so long being like “unless my engine can teleport or I have a second engine, I have no idea” and then it just turned out to be a second engine lol
The RJ Corman Greenville line has a similar situation only they sometimes handle unit trains of ethanol. It takes that over an hour to gather all the cars from the PRR line to the NYC line. No highway or anything. Just short sighted Conrail never considered a large customer moving in.
A little tugging and pushing and the problem is solved. A bit of patience and work it through in your mind and a more experienced crew can make it look easy. If all that grain is headed to the same location then you shouldn't have to worry about reshuffling in the yard. The Milwaukee Road had a unique customer in Elm Grove WI on the Airline. That had a two-car dock on the back of the building that crossed a diamond that served at least six doors on the side of the building and then when they were rebuilding the freeway by the new stadium the line was severed and they had to back their train down to serve the customers and I don't recall any passing sidings to run around. Sadly it often worked at night but luckily most switches faced the same direction and this train did rate a caboose
Splitting the power is what saves this situation. It could not be done with a single engine, and that's what makes it look impossible in the first second.
So instead of investing a little and putting the siding back in across the road, they consistently do it the hardest and only way possible turning a 20 minute move into probably close to 2 hours. They must love the overtime.
Putting the track back thru the highway could be a substantial investment in both legal fees and MOW . I don't know how much traffic moves this way and I am not familiar with the crew agreements in place. Maybe they make this move without overtime. I don't know how much track would have to be put back in and whether or not the state would put up a fight over tearing up the roadway to put the siding back in. So many unknowns. My money is on the railroad management having figured out that, at least for now,, what you see in the video is the most cost efficient way to handle it.
@@The_New_IKB That is a "big if" and I agree. If the state paved over the crossing without permission, then the railroad has bargaining power. Indeed decades ago I opened up a small paved local road by just shoving loaded cars VERY SLOWLY thru the asphalt. The local community was not happy but they were in the wrong. Not sure what the circumstances are here. My guess, and it is a guess based on decades of experience, is that if this were simple the railroad would have already taken the step to open the siding back up.
They probably don’t do it often enough to warrant the cost of putting the north end of the siding again. They could also wye into the main, easier than going across the highway.
@@whiteknightcat In my experience JA's videos draw a significant number of the 'bad' railfans that do nothing but trash the railroad, it's employees and the way the run things. I've seen railfans call ELS employees fat, lazy and the management greedy and much worse. Crews are not unaware. Even though it might be a small minority, those people are vocal and crews get tired of it.
@@whiteknightcat Always a few 'bad apples'. RIGHT? LOL. Another point is that "bees" videos tend to be educational and focus on the positive effort associated with operations like this one. Yeah. The track needs work. Yeah a dose of roundup would make things better. Management and the crews know that. But they are railroading for a living and the thrust of this videographer's work tends to be more informative than ready to point out the negative.
Wonder long it'll be until rail crews are routinely given small, man-portable offroad electric bikes or some kind of scooter to speed up all the back-and-forth between engines during shunting jobs like this.. They're getting cheaper and more powerful every year, and could save a lot of time
I worked with one large switching operation that decided to do this with ATVs. The crews hated it. The paths they had to ride on were bumpy and seldom maintained. A good crew, like those on this video, can make these moves shown here with minimal walking. You spend most of the time just making the couplings or riding cars.
With all due respect, that would be more trouble than it's worth. I can walk 15 cars in about 3 minutes, 5 if the ballast is garbage. Plus once you get some experience you learn how to save a few steps all while not tearing things up.
I had to go to maps to figure out WHY they cut the siding in half. I had assumed route 22 was an overpass, But i see it is a grade crossing and of course you can't set cars across a grade crossing so it was cut. I filmed a switching maneuver just yesterday which was odd because the three cars were not evenly distributed in the middle of the train. so there was a bit of back and forth.
Thanks for sharing that - I had similar questions. Around here, it seems like the railroads are used to bringing their federal preemption to every fight and being a bully in general, so I was wondering what circumstances would lead to a state route being allowed to slice something like that.
@@hatchetation Couple of possible answers but given I don't know the particular's here I am just guessing based on similar situations. The first is that this is a short line and doesn't have the clout or need to fight. The second is that the short line may have negotiated a favor in another location. I've done this several times in the past. I'll make things 'easy' for the state/county/city here if they do me a favor over 'there'.
Typical comment from a railfan. How hard can it be? Maybe $500k. A million? And how many times a year do they make this move? I don't know the answer to that myself but my guess is the railroad management does know and they have weighed the time cost of this double switch move against the cost of rebuilding the crossing
@@thomasstonge3758 Do you work for the railroad so you know the volume? And more importantly, do you know the additional crew costs associated with this fairly simple move? And if you do know that crew cost do you know the cost to 'fix it'.
![YoungBoy Never Broke Again - Missing Everything [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dTYeMZGzOzw/mqdefault.jpg)
I used to love big, mainline running; long trains, big power, etc. Now, I’m a sucker for some branchline switching.
Yes, there is a lot to be said for it. I'll have more such videos coming.
It's kinda addictive. I used to be the same way, now I can't stop switching, yard and mainline.
I didn't realize THAT was the direction of that switch. I never seen that done. That explains a lot!
We called this "splitting the power". Very useful when making a pickup from a facing point stub track.
Or when the regular road locomotives are too heavy to go on lighter spur trackage so a smaller unit has to be part of the consist. It then gets cut off to do the switching. CNW used to have to do that in Oconto, WI.
@@killerbee6310 Speaking of lighter units, my friend says that he used a bulldozer or something like it to pull a bunch of cars in a manufacturer's yard. Does that seem possible?
If so, then what is the smallest thing that could pull 1 or 2 cars? I figure that a pickup truck on metal wheels is pushing our luck, but might be able to. I ask, because this could be a way for a small startup short line to cut corners.
Dropping cars was one of the moves that was made illegal durning my career. Them doing that took a lot of fun and excitement out of the job, so I can understand what banning alcohol use meant to the old heads.
Drops (or flying switch) definitely made things easier at times. But when they didn't work it could be a pain.
@@cdavid8139 That is why ya carry some 2x4 s. So you can use the engine to "pole" the cars out of the way. We called that failed drop "frogging yourself in." The other interesting drop we used to do was a pull car was in a spur with a facing point switch. We would leave our drag on the main, reach in nose first and pull out the car. Then we would kick that car up the main (uphill), line the switch and run the engine back into the spur. Gravity would then let that car stop and start rolling back against your drag. Don't be like me an forget to line the switch back for the car to roll by. We called that move a "Dutch" drop
@@GrumpyOldRailroader I hear ya grump. I've never 'poled' a car or at least I won't admit to it. I have worked jobs with a 'pole' or '4x4' but never a 2x4. I have done a 'dutch' drop though we did not call it that. And while I never forgot to line a switch on a drop, it is possible I missed a few over the years
@@cdavid8139 We carried a pipe also. Came in handy when you run through a switch and need to fix it but doesn't work on those heavy duty main line switches
@@GrumpyOldRailroader Yep. LOL. Of course I never ran thru a switch but heard of people who have! ;>
Great Video, yes there is always a way to switch any car, you just have to have time, brains, and a train. Also, has this railroad not herd of weed killer, lol
They have 'heard' of it...just can't justify the cost. Roundup is not cheap
In the late 80’s I briefly had a small Lionel switching layout on top of several dressers in my bedroom and I actually enjoyed running it.
Great solution to the problem.
Weed control does not appear to be a priority on the ELS
it sure don't
Or any other track Maintenance
Roundup isn't cheap
@@cdavid8139
that can be said for EVERYTHING associated with running the railroad...
but it's all part of the cost of doing business
It’s such a low priority it’s on the back side of a blank sheet
great video you have the best channel for railroad operations
Cool - thank you for the validation of my efforts.
Thank you. Would really enjoy seeing any other videos you may do on switching. Maybe a grain or malting facility
Indeed more are coming - video has been filmed for two more so far.
i wondered how they managed it there thanks Killer Bee !
Wonder no more. You are welcome. Glad to oblige.
Thank you for this switching demonstration. I enjoy watching train crews making switch moves. I am fascinated by the way that the conductor determines what must be done in each situation and then he proceeds to get the job done in the least number of movements. (Posted on 17 September 2024 at 2125 CDT.)
They are experts at doing a lot with little
@@killerbee6310 It is fascinating to watch the E&LS switching gondolas at the Alter Metal plant in East Kingsford, Michigan when Jason Asselin catches the crew switching that location. Switching the Alter Metal plant is done by a northbound train because of the location of the switch. The position of the empty gondolas in the train determines how the crew will perform the switching moves. (Posted 17 September 2024 at 2159 CDT.)
Well, as a conductor, you have to do a lot of work outside and you usually work 12 hour shifts every single day. Our goal is to get back in that locomotive with our work done as quickly as possible allowing for safety!
@@zackbobby5550 Well said Zack. I always said a good conductor is like a good chess player...you are always working several moves ahead in the mind. I remember early in my training an engineer (who was also a conductor) shouted at me over the radio to "Hey....let the locomotive do the work" ..which was his way of saying I was walking too much. Never forgot it.
Well done.
Appreciate - thank you
On the railroad we call this a "two engine move" because, of course, it can only be done with 2 engines lol. Very useful in lots of cases, but extremely annoying and time consuming.
Naaaa..real easy...just go zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip, zip and you're done!!
Now I know what my model layout is gonna be based off
But wait!....There's more.....
That ROW ! Looks like the ELS.
Nice! Great video.
Thank you as always Mr. Kazoo.
well shot
Thank you. Well commented !!
Could you explain how multiple engines work together, is there more than one engineer? Are they producing full power without a engineer? How does that work...thank you Dean
The big fat MU (Multiple Unit) cable connecting the two locos allows an engineer on the controlling locomotive to control the other units that are MU'd in the consist
Piggybacking off Mr Grumpy's comment, whatever the engineer in the lead engine does with the throttle, brakes, sanders, etc, the trailing units in the consist will mimic. The m.u. cables from engine to engine relay the instructions back to each trailing unit.
Piggybacking off of what both of them have said, I wouldn't be surprised if radio signals are also used. At 1 time, in the train yards, a big cordless control box was used to control an engine for rearranging [switching?] cars.
Also, sometimes, other engines are just being pulled to somewhere else, and are not using their power, if I understand correctly.
@eugenetswong 3 different things. MU controls all locos in a multi engine consist. RCL is remote control locomotive controlled by a person on the ground with a controller. DPU is Distributed Power which allows the engineer on a train to control the lead consist and 1 or 2 helper consists
@@GrumpyOldRailroader Thank you!
Excellent, thank you !
You are indeed your welcome
Interesting, I guess it will work out if the order of the cars is not important.
When picking up cars on the road you usually do not re-sequence them out in the field. You do that back in the yard. Not the term 'usually' here
Locals just pick up the cars from the industries as they get 'em. It's the yard crew's job to worry about the car order once the local is back in the yard and the cars from the local are either being assembled into pickups for passing mainline freights or being assembled into a mainline freight originating from the yard.
@@davidwhiting1761 Agreed Mr. Whiting. Of course all railroaders have experienced situations where locals might "re-block" some cars in transit. As with anything in railroading there is the 'norm' and the 'exception'
This is an easy switch move to do in model-railroad. It will take a good 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour to do properly.
I had to laugh - because on a model railroad after you get frustrated you can just pick up the cars and set them down where you want them. Once at WC one of our Sales-Marketing ladies was recounting a conversation she just had with a customer. The customer wanted us to do all sorts of specific car placements and spotting and shuffling around of cars. The Sales-Marketing lady finally grew frustrated and said "Look - what do you think this is - a f***ing model railroad??"
Why not rebuild the 22 crossing and wye? You'd eliminate the shuttle crew and a significant number of moves. It could be done for a reasonable price if bid out to a local outfit, and there's funding programs if you can fill out the forms.
i guess they don't wanna deal with the headaches associated with HWY 22
Why had removed that at all?
Let's estimate that to rebuild the crossing (if the state let you) it would cost $1 million. True you could then eliminate the switch move. But how often does this happen> What is the health of the industry receiving the cars on this move. Is the move infrequent enough so that crew time isn't really a factor?
I stared at the thumbnail for so long being like “unless my engine can teleport or I have a second engine, I have no idea” and then it just turned out to be a second engine lol
LOL - yes, a lot of times it can be simple once you know the secret. Glad I gave your brain a few moments of workout and thank you for commenting.
The RJ Corman Greenville line has a similar situation only they sometimes handle unit trains of ethanol. It takes that over an hour to gather all the cars from the PRR line to the NYC line. No highway or anything. Just short sighted Conrail never considered a large customer moving in.
The crews know how to make it work...so infrastructure improvements never get made because "it's working now."
A little tugging and pushing and the problem is solved. A bit of patience and work it through in your mind and a more experienced crew can make it look easy. If all that grain is headed to the same location then you shouldn't have to worry about reshuffling in the yard. The Milwaukee Road had a unique customer in Elm Grove WI on the Airline. That had a two-car dock on the back of the building that crossed a diamond that served at least six doors on the side of the building and then when they were rebuilding the freeway by the new stadium the line was severed and they had to back their train down to serve the customers and I don't recall any passing sidings to run around. Sadly it often worked at night but luckily most switches faced the same direction and this train did rate a caboose
True, when you switch it day in and day out, you know what to do and make it look easy.
I assume that the hiway has a bridge over the rail line or the road must be blocked for a good long stretch of time.
Nope - grade crossing. The highway isn't blocked for very long.
Former CNW trackage?
Yes and no... Stiles Junction to Oconto Falls is former CNW, Green Bay to crivitz is former Milwaukee Road.
How much more has ELS spent on extra moves at Stiles versus what the state was charging for a second grade crossing?
no idea.
Splitting the power is what saves this situation. It could not be done with a single engine, and that's what makes it look impossible in the first second.
I am glad to hear I had you stumped - if even for a second !!
Ok, that's funny.
Now, how would you do this with one engine?
Unless you can roll cars by, you really cannot.
So instead of investing a little and putting the siding back in across the road, they consistently do it the hardest and only way possible turning a 20 minute move into probably close to 2 hours. They must love the overtime.
Putting the track back thru the highway could be a substantial investment in both legal fees and MOW . I don't know how much traffic moves this way and I am not familiar with the crew agreements in place. Maybe they make this move without overtime. I don't know how much track would have to be put back in and whether or not the state would put up a fight over tearing up the roadway to put the siding back in. So many unknowns. My money is on the railroad management having figured out that, at least for now,, what you see in the video is the most cost efficient way to handle it.
@@cdavid8139 did the state have permission to cut the siding when they resurfaced the high way? If not the RR should make them pay to put it back!
@@The_New_IKB That is a "big if" and I agree. If the state paved over the crossing without permission, then the railroad has bargaining power. Indeed decades ago I opened up a small paved local road by just shoving loaded cars VERY SLOWLY thru the asphalt. The local community was not happy but they were in the wrong. Not sure what the circumstances are here. My guess, and it is a guess based on decades of experience, is that if this were simple the railroad would have already taken the step to open the siding back up.
They could have also put in a turnout and switch connecting south instead of north
They probably don’t do it often enough to warrant the cost of putting the north end of the siding again. They could also wye into the main, easier than going across the highway.
Terms highway and mainline seem to be used rather loosely!
It is the northwoods....LOL
When I was looking at the puzzle on the thumbnail, it did not occur to me to separate the engines and do it that way!
Excellent - then there was an unexpected outcome to the video !! I'll be doing more.
Highway 22 (@3:20) does not look like it has much traffic 😛
Actually it does.
You were video'ing ELS crews? And they didn't cuss you out or make obscene gestures at you?
I was video'ing ELS trains and occasionally the crew will get in the shot but it is incidental.
@@killerbee6310 I was thinking of how much the ELS personnel hated Jason Asselin. I was under the impression they also disliked the public in general.
@@whiteknightcat In my experience JA's videos draw a significant number of the 'bad' railfans that do nothing but trash the railroad, it's employees and the way the run things. I've seen railfans call ELS employees fat, lazy and the management greedy and much worse. Crews are not unaware. Even though it might be a small minority, those people are vocal and crews get tired of it.
@@cdavid8139 Thank you for that. This gives me a fuller picture.
@@whiteknightcat Always a few 'bad apples'. RIGHT? LOL. Another point is that "bees" videos tend to be educational and focus on the positive effort associated with operations like this one. Yeah. The track needs work. Yeah a dose of roundup would make things better. Management and the crews know that. But they are railroading for a living and the thrust of this videographer's work tends to be more informative than ready to point out the negative.
Now do it with 1 locomotive
You can speed this up if you have enough crew to move both engines at once.
there are exceptions, but in general short line operations can barely afford the 2 man crew they have
Some guys working as conductors are also engineer qualified so they do that - all depends on who is in a given crew that day.
@@killerbee6310 True. In the "old" days when engineer certification was much easier than it is today there were so many more crew who could do both.
Wonder long it'll be until rail crews are routinely given small, man-portable offroad electric bikes or some kind of scooter to speed up all the back-and-forth between engines during shunting jobs like this.. They're getting cheaper and more powerful every year, and could save a lot of time
Don't know how well a bike would do at this particular location-LOL
As a railroader, probably never lol. Oh the injuries that would be sure to follow...
I worked with one large switching operation that decided to do this with ATVs. The crews hated it. The paths they had to ride on were bumpy and seldom maintained. A good crew, like those on this video, can make these moves shown here with minimal walking. You spend most of the time just making the couplings or riding cars.
Thanks for the replies, learning a lot!
With all due respect, that would be more trouble than it's worth. I can walk 15 cars in about 3 minutes, 5 if the ballast is garbage. Plus once you get some experience you learn how to save a few steps all while not tearing things up.
I had to go to maps to figure out WHY they cut the siding in half. I had assumed route 22 was an overpass, But i see it is a grade crossing and of course you can't set cars across a grade crossing so it was cut. I filmed a switching maneuver just yesterday which was odd because the three cars were not evenly distributed in the middle of the train. so there was a bit of back and forth.
The sad part is the crossing was redone recently so there was the opportunity to restore the siding across Hwy 22...but alas, no.
Thanks for sharing that - I had similar questions. Around here, it seems like the railroads are used to bringing their federal preemption to every fight and being a bully in general, so I was wondering what circumstances would lead to a state route being allowed to slice something like that.
@@hatchetation Couple of possible answers but given I don't know the particular's here I am just guessing based on similar situations. The first is that this is a short line and doesn't have the clout or need to fight. The second is that the short line may have negotiated a favor in another location. I've done this several times in the past. I'll make things 'easy' for the state/county/city here if they do me a favor over 'there'.
typical in-efficient stuff our government and railroads do. Just put the siding back together how hard can it possibly be
Typical comment from a railfan. How hard can it be? Maybe $500k. A million? And how many times a year do they make this move? I don't know the answer to that myself but my guess is the railroad management does know and they have weighed the time cost of this double switch move against the cost of rebuilding the crossing
$$$
If you think about how much time we spend doing this, And how much volume is coming out of ofalls, it would pay for the fix , to do it.
@@thomasstonge3758 Do you work for the railroad so you know the volume? And more importantly, do you know the additional crew costs associated with this fairly simple move? And if you do know that crew cost do you know the cost to 'fix it'.
The video is great, that track setup is NOT
Thus showing there is a prototype for every model railroad.
OK let's start again, Railway wagon shunting exercise. Correct terminology please.
All depends on your perspective I guess-LOL
Given this video was shot in North America...with a North American challenge....I see nothing wrong with the terminology.