Why the Greeks Glorified Violence (And We Don’t)
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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We don’t??
was this made b4 the left confessed to be pro hamas?
"I have to study politics and war so that my sons can study mathematics, commerce and agriculture, so their sons can study poetry, painting and music." John Q. Adams. And another line can be added: "and so their sons can disavow it all."
Unfortunately the society that only studies poetry, painting, and music will be defeated by the society that studies politics and war.
@@mumpor4057or trade.... someone sells painters tools or poet's pen/ipad.
@@mumpor4057just curious are there any examples that you know of when “peaceful” societies were wiped out by a more violent one. I can only think of the Minoans.
@@joea7590 Just change "pacific" for "decadent/vibrant & diverse/egalitarian/vegan"...
“The coward believes he shall live forever,
If the fight he faces not;
But age shall not grant him the gift of peace,
Though Spears may spare his life.”
We kind of still glorify violence though. We're just a lot more dishonest about it.
We do still glorify violence, quite openly. It’s still the cornerstone of entertainment in films, video games etc. And UFC is getting more and more popular. I’m also not sure about the central thesis of the video that the ancients glorified war per se. I always read the Iliad more as a tragedy. The Trojans certainly don’t glorify it and the Greeks only went to war because they felt compelled to.
It's more of an unconscious thing, we like to be hypocrites about it.
@@josefk332 I actually think mutually consensual martial arts competitions like UFC don't even qualify as violence proper. I was indeed thinking of stuff like entertainment in films and TV shows, but also of state propaganda. Even democratic states (not to mention non-democratic ones) pretty consistently glorify violence as long as it's against "the right people". I guess it's kind of a given for a social institution to do that if literally its entire raison d'étre lies in its monopoly on the use of violence.
@@tarvoc746 if I may ask an unrelated question, what compels you to advertise your sexuality? Are you proud of it?
@@nanashi7779 Because putting a hammer and sickle in my profile picture instead would give me even more negative reactions.
The other thing to bear in mind about ancient v’s modern motivations for war is that formerly there was a definite economic benefit (to the victors) for doing so. They captured territory, livestock, trade, slaves (which was very important) etc. Today there is a far weaker economic case due to integrated/global supply chains and economies.
What about the industrial military complex? Or is that just an American thing?
@@zacharyriley4561 US spends 3% of GDP on defence. Just so happens the US has a huge economy. And when it actually uses its army it usually ultimately doesn’t benefit i.e. Vietnam, Iraq War, which were economic (and geopolitical) disasters for them.
@@josefk332 Wait then why do we have a MIC (Short for Military Industrial Complex) if it’s a economic disaster?
@@zacharyriley4561🛢
@@josedanielherrera7115 Okay yeah that makes sense.
"It is entirely seemly for the young man to lie mangled by the bronze spear. For in his death, all things appear fair." - Homer
"..all things appear fair"
Now that's an interesting line.
How is war fair?
Maybe Homor says this because the rules of war are much easier to understand than the rules of men. The former is simple, while the latter is convoluted.
War is the return to the natural state of things, as Hobbes says: _bellum omnium contra omnes_ . Conversely, civilization is an artificial system propped up by innumerable social conventions which allow men to exploit one another in ways they cannot even fully conceive.
At least in war, the guy who kills me is direct and honest about it and "kill or be killed" is a basic tenet we both abide by out if necessity.
So in a way, war is more fair than peace.
Nietzsche underestimated the speed at which things would change. He was not 200 years ahead, but 100.
Communication tech
Let us hope, for our sake, because I don't know how much more of this I can take.
@@gammadion same dude, this world is so tiresome and alien to me
They glorified warriors, not violence. They raised Athena in high esteem and the greater God of War, while they were ambivalent to Ares, whom was the God of War representing violence.
The Greeks were not a single monolithic entity. In Sparta Ares was their patron god, and the most important one.
@@thevisitor1012 That's straight up wrong. Their patron god were the Gemini, Castor and Pollux, which led to the fact Sparta had 2 kings. Besides this, Zeus, Athena, Apollo, Artemis and the Gemini were all of way greater importance than Ares. The most important shrine in Sparta used for the religious initiation of youths was that of Artemis Orthia. Apollo and Artemis had the most important festivals. Ares had a small shrine OUTSIDE Sparta, while Athena had a huge temple on the Spartan acropolis.
It's clear you know literally nothing accurate about ancient Greece.
whats the difference between a warrior and a soldier?
A Warrior is practicing an art whilst a soldier is a field of work@@jmgonzales7701
@@jmgonzales7701 Warrior is a complete way of life. Soldier is a profession, usually of limited time. The warrior in the garden is still a warrior. The soldier in the garden is just a gardener. Any person of any identity can become a soldier, the warrior is a warrior whether he's soldiering or writing poetry. If you want to simplify it, warrior is that person's religion, it doesn't change with his job.
Great video as always, but halfway through I can’t help but comment on the Ancient Greek position on war-they both glorified and abhorred it, and that dichotomy/conflict is ever present in the Iliad. And does Achilles not become driven with rage when he sees the illustrated shield? He even says he would rather be a peasant on Earth than king of the underworld…
Refer to Carl Jung about dichotomy and Gegensätze, i.e. opposite/opposing forces
@@ilonabaier6042 thank you! I am adding the word "Gegensätze" to my voculary and future scholarly work. Sorry about ear-hustling. Peace!
Yes great points, I briefly mentioned it in the video. There is a tragic ambivalence in the Iliad, and the Greeks weren’t simply berserk-going barbarians who killed for the fun of it. And it’s clear Achilles goes overboard esp. As he desecrates the body of Hector. But his entire life is about attaining glory on the battlefield, seeking revenge, and living short. He was a heroic figure for the Greeks who sought to emulate him. I could’ve talked about it for longer, maybe in another video, but I believe the point of the vid still stands
Ancient Greeks did not abhor war, they lamented the tragedy that necessitates from it and were aware that Ares always kills soldiers on both sides. These are VERY different positions.
War was a fact of life, it doesn’t mean they liked it. To them, you were not even a grown male, much less a citizen or free person of any repute, if you did not go to war. A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do even if he doesn’t enjoy it
The Cretans are among the very few Europeans still not accepting gun laws. I'd say that I'm a rather peaceful man, but you shouldn't be so over-civilized that you become a slave.
I'm a peaceful man too, but I believe in the idea of defending oneself from harm
"He who has no sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one" Luke 22:36
Crete in modern day just full Bri'ish
@@lewakar Sad to hear that.
The cretans are a wonderful people.
@@sillyname6808 I haven't been there since 2003, but I hope it's still like back then.
"War is the father of everything"
Heraclitus
Wish that particular Father would leave to get some milk.
"Struggle is the father of all things"
- Austrian painter.
I thought we lost all of Heraclitus works, where the heck did you get this?
@@thevisitor1012 small parts of his work (like 200 words or something) have been recovered
Other than that, yes, everything is lost from him
Does anyone have a deeper analysis on this saying?
Good video, but I disagree with what you said about the Greeks. I think their attitude to violence is just as complex as it is today. There are parts in the Iliad where violence is glorified, like the bit with Achilles shield, but there are also parts in the poem where violence is disapproved of, as when Zeus describes Ares as the most hated of all the gods because of the terrible suffering that war brings. Also, the scenes of violence in the Iliad are so graphic that many have called the Iliad an 'anti-war' poem in consequence. Another example of violence not being glorified in Ancient Greece is in tragic theatre. Violence was never shown on stage and was certainly not celebrated. Oedipus was never shown blinding himself and Medea was never shown murdering her children. Both of those acts occurred 'indoors', that is, off-stage. Many of the audience of ancient Athens had served in the military and had no wish to relive acts of violence outside of war at the theatre. I think that, like us, sometimes the Greeks glorified war, sometimes not. Post-world wars, we view war and violence as terrible and ugly things, but this doesn't stop us from enjoying people being shot, killed, and blown up in movies, books, and video games.
Many more would disapprove with calling the illiad anti war
Be careful you don't apply modern morality to ancient narratives.
Very good video. Violence has indeed changed from the ancient to the modern, because we have entered the realm of the Titan from the Olympians. Empires and nation states no longer exist (in name only), heroes no longer exist because those require kleos (glory), glory requires poets and poetry, poetry requires memory. We have none of these things. We have the machine and we have forgetting.
“We have the machine and we have forgotten” that’s a fantastic quote dude, very true
bullshit, look at the list of all wars the US in particular and the west in general go to in the last 50 years
" *nation states no longer exist (in name only)* "
We have quite a few nation states around where I live, so speak for yourselves.
We do have all of them.
why every ancient culture glorified violence and why youtubers pretend gen z doesnt. there i fixed the title
Babe wake up weltgeist finallllly posted
In what world do we not glorify violence? We have the largest military in the world by a wide margin, we have been at war for the last 20 years, we have entire genres of video games and movies dedicated to hyperviolence, we even have special awards and ceremonies for those who die “in service of their nation”. Not to mention the memorials, the political speeches, rapidly militarizing police, more guns per square mile than people, etc, etc, etc.
Honestly, reading the Iliad and Odyssey as someone who grew up in the shadow of 9/11, I was struck not by how violent it was but by how familiar that violence was to me- how little has changed in the 3000 odd years since the time it was set. All that’s changed is that we have a few more rules for violence; in 2023, Odysseus would have called the cops on the suitors in his home and let them decide who to spear to the wall.
I believe that war back then, though bad, was different than it is now. Sure being trampled in the mud in a massive clash was different but it gave you a bigger sense of purpose and while being sniped by arrows is a possibility, the true hopelessness as a human in modern war is just... Insane. It feels even more out of the control of a grunt
When a boy wishes he could be one of Xerxes’s loyal nameless slaves whipped onto a Spartan spear at Thermopylae because he feels ‘meaningless’ today.
@@Adsper2000thats not the only way to interpet that. its not just feeling meaningless. youre comment contributes to such
@@Adsper2000I don't think the Achaemenid Persians had slaves but the Spartans did
@@Anglisc1682 "Under the Achaemenids, Persian nobles in Babylonia and other conquered states became large slave owners. They recruited a substantial number of their domestic slaves from these vanquished peoples. The Babylonians were required to supply an annual tribute of 500 boys."
Everyone had slaves for most of human history.
Reading Jungers works on the mechanisation of war
In parts of the rural Deep South , it's still shameful to call the police, you settle it yourself. It's still expected that you respond to violence/disrespect with violence.
As it should be
In all fairness, eliminating dependence on police is a major step toward freedom. It doesn't work at large scales, so you can only have it in small settlements. At large scales such as cities, the anonymity brings out the profoundly antisocial side of humanity and authority is the only way ever devised to deter that. It still happens all the time, though.
People talk about eliminating pollution or eliminating dependence on fossil fuels, but a VERY important part of the advancement of mankind is eliminating authority. That's because authority and life-destroying corruption go hand in hand.
Because it's based
It seems to me that the ancient Greeks perceived violence and warfare as a way of life and the nature of all things. And for them it pretty much was.
Real life madalorian huh??
They lived in a world inherently more brutal, cruel, impoverished, and underdeveloped than our own; and at the same time simpler, purer, open, and in line with fundamental aspects of human nature we, in modern times, try to cover up. At the end of the day we’re no different than them, we’ve just deluded ourselves into thinking so. Personally, I wouldn’t mind if I was born into a wealthy/upper middle to upper class family in ancient antiquity, Greece or Rome
But 90 plus % were poor farmers or slaves . Your point is you want to be rich and powerful. Why should you be special?
thank u for not minding to be born into wealth. u are so unique
@@georgenelson8917 And 90% of the world today lives in underdeveloped third world countries, yet I was born in a first world country in The West. In a 360* view, global sense, I already am.
@@MenOn13 No problem
Antibiotics thogh, I'd miss them for sure lol
I guess war has become transposed from the military to the business world in our modern capitalist society, and our urges to conquer and amass have become sublimated within the capitalist system. Anyway there's a Chinese proverb, 商场如战场 shang cang ru zhan chang, which means "the marketplace (business world) is like a battlefield". Though this is not a uniquely Chinese sentiment by any stretch.
Kinda true but not really cause there was always commerce and competition. War did allow you to get gold and glory back in the day so you’d be motivated to participate in it so you have a shot at a good life kinda like goin to college
modern wars are bankers wars.
unlike the glorious wars of the past
“The weak will suffer what they must and the strong will do what they can.” - Melian Dialogue
“Woe to the vanquished” - Roman saying, originating from a legend of the Gallic sack of Rome.
Lol, we don't glorify violence? Was that meant to be a troll?
more like, our society glorifies cowardice and weakness
Anyone who can't see that postmodern American culture glorifies violence as much if not more than the ancient Greeks isn't a reliable interpreter.
Definitely among blacks.
@@floridaman318 Let's not neglect Warner Bros. cartoons, The 3 Stooges, and WWE
@@floridaman318 Crazy how you ignore Country, Metal, and rock music. Not to mention most media produced by white people
Hmm not really honestly blacks mostly just seem to act on instinct it’s not a philosophy for them.
Sometimes I feel there is no better mythical creature to symbolize our species than that of the phoenix. For just like it, we constantly see cycles of new life and vigor, aging and entropy, death then rebirth.
An interesting perspective that I have been pondering is thay violence can have different targets. This video focuses on human-human violence, but it can occur between anything that a person can have relations with, with devastating effects. For instance, iconoclasm and urbicide are things that inflict great but indirect harm, and are forms of violence against things and materials. Abstracting this beyond these two examples, violence can happen in many ways that we do not usually consider
It's because Christians are against human-human violence but not violence against ideas or materials (at least not in principle). See Ephesians 6:12.
@@Dungeon-uh4ph are you suggesting that Christianity is why we don't glorify violence, and its absence is why the Greeks did?
@@andrewbowen2837 Isn't that the thesis of the video? It was too long so I didn't watch it.
@@Dungeon-uh4ph I don't even remember to be honest with you. I know it's built off of someting Nietzsche wrote though
@@andrewbowen2837 That makes sense. The channel seems to have a Nietzsche theme.
Sure we glorify violence; we just have to pretend to feel bad about it.
Plenty of people still have the mentality of a Western or an 80’s action movie when it comes to solving complex problems.
As for our attempt to change, much of it definitely came from war being filmed. It’s interesting the Shield of Achilles was written by a WWI veteran. Cameras mixed with the destruction of modern warfare killed a lot of romantic ideas of warfare
I think the distinction to be made is how a culture views death.
“It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures.” - Blood Meridian
A fool who doesn’t learn from his past does not have a future.
Have you looked at a good chunk of the music industry? Violence is a core element in heavier music & rap (especially drill) and they're significant parts of popular American culture.
Or films. It's pretty hard to find a major production or renowned work that doesn't involve fetishized violence.
It seems that Nietzsche has only extrapolated the tendency of his time into the future. He is no prophet and his word should not be treated as scripture.
Like Marx who predicted the rise of the proletariat. But he probably never envisioned how it ended.
Generally I am very critical about what I consider to be „philosopher worship“. The second act of what is to come is unpredictable and could be very different from what those prophetic philosophers expected.
I think it's worth considering that you're only talking about the Western world here. A lot of Eastern cultures today still glorify violence. There is the whole idea of violent _jihad_ or _shahadat_ (martyrdom) in the Islamic world, for instance.
Yeah....especially the Chinese government.
Lol. When the hell did Islamic culture get lumped in the "East"?
jihad died out sometime during the 8th century no muslim nation has actually managed to accomplish what the early muslims could
Right now the chinese didn't make themselves explode in my country but the muslim did for more than a decade so stop being a brainwashed US puppet and look at the world like it really is.@@mingthan7028
Right. The análysis is based on Europe. The Middle East is centuries behind Europe and therefore havent broken through the idea of religión. They exist at the same time as the Europeans but havent developed the same.
Anyway, you are right. Islam and its influence is centainly an obstacle in the thesis of this video, at least World Wide. For Europe this still applies, unless Islam takes a hold of it, which would be a catastrophe, but wouldnt be a surprise seeing how sterile Europe has become.
We still glorify violence, but with extra steps & in more subtle ways all to maintain our self-image of “civility” & a semblance of “lack of barbarism”. Just watch the current political conflicts that the west engages in the news, the interest in mma/ ufc … fighting sports or the interest in hunting/ shooting as a hobby whether irl or in games. I’m not saying this is fool-proof evidence of us glorifying violence, but rather to explain why I think that asserting that we don’t glorify violence anymore seems rather self-deceptive to me. We just do it in seemingly more “socially acceptable” contexts that do not threaten or offend our supposedly more civilized “modern mind”. Also, I would make the point that this self-image is merely how we have been conditioned and that it is easy to become reconditioned into barbarically glorifying violence the same way we once did. Our brain and central nervous system hasn’t changed at all structurally so we are still slaves to the more primitive parts of the brain the same way our violence-glorifying ancestors where. We just haven’t been pushed (yet) by society into situations that cause us to glorify barbarism openly like in the past. As I said, I think we only do it more subtly now due to societal conditioning and that can easily change if society allows us to devolve into more open forms of violence glorification (the potential is there, heck we are more technologically advanced so our potential for barbarism is far wider than the ancient Greeks was)
A semblance of lack of barbarianism?? Do we happen to treat POWs the same way? Do we happen to kill or murder each other as much? Do we enslave each other as much and as often?
No. Of course not.
We live much more comfortable and safer lives than the Ancient Greeks and their contemporaries from other regions.
Do we glorify violence? Yes. Because no matter the changes, we still know that being unable of violence is being weak and helpless, and reliant on others to commit violence on our behalf.
Even with all that it is still not the same as Ancient Greece. From a comparison standpoint we do not glorify violence. We're of a totally different mindset now than in Ancient Greece. This is seen by adverse people are to anything perceived as violence like all social media sites being heavily censored of "foul language" because the prevailing thought in society is that words are violence and violence is bad. There's also the plentiful amount of anti-war protests that happen that simply would've been unthinkable in Ancient Greece
@@MrFredstt : At the end of the day,violent tendencies are still deep embedded inside of us,we just learned to vent them out in relatively harmless ways but all it takes is to take a look at any heated discussion on the internet to understand that we are nothing more than great apes with a wi fi connection.
11:09 That is very sad. Young men being shamed into fighting in WW1... That was probably the same way the German Empire was shaming their men into war.
And the fact of the matter is, neither the British nor the German Empires leadership was morally superior - they both treated people in the colonies as subhumans and tried squeezing all the resources they could as fast as possible... So the victory of either side was basically pointless, nothing more than a way to re-draw colonial borders on a map for the elites who treated normal people like cannon fodder.
WW1 was an imperialist war, and soldiers who refused to bomb, shoot, and cut innocent people (including both the civilians and the soldiers in the "enemy" trenches, by the way, most of whom were also just forced or brainwashed into wanting to fight), despite shame brought on them by the propagandists, are the real heroes. Period.
Wouldn't you agree that fascist ideologies like Italian Fascism and National Socialism were consistent with Nietzsche's glorification of war? They are opposite to Nietzsche's ideas in other areas, but it seems to me that these were some of the few philosophical movements that tried to revive the vigor for war, which is no wonder why they also promoted Nietzsche's writings for a while.
No, like all things it was seen as a means to a end not a thing in and of itself.
It was meant to end it.
‘You must be forced into it, like spending stuff on wine and other things!’
Violence is a Luxury.
Something they Marx and all his ilk to this day can’t imagine… see how Marx believed ‘no they want to be utilitarian with their money and spend it well, not on anything else or anything useless… capitalism must be forcing them to spend it this way’
It is Wilson’s war VS teddy Roosevelt on war.
‘We must have a war for the right reason’ vs ‘we must join in the war to prove our strength!’
The latter would’ve done more good. End to the war, no idea pushing, and so no WW2, no USSR, no Vietnam or war in the Middle East under Wilsonian intervention.
Check the video ‘what if Wilson lost the election’
Read: the birth of tragedy.
In the last days of Socrates you see his take on the Marxist and Italian BS.
It’s a hollow farce that even those that demand it become victims to it, demanding oneself not to do stuff for ‘fun’ or ‘pleasure’
Marx, Fascism, Socrates are all deaths to tragedy and the myth, the music we make.
Good points, of course I’ve been wanting to do a video on that for the longest time but I’m not sure how RUclips will deal with such a sensitive topic. I considered making one for Patreon but then only a few people will see it. Maybe I’ll just release the script in text-form somewhere
@@WeltgeistYT do a April fools video of censorship comedy for RUclips
Violence? On no that’s violins, oh the art of violins? That’s a violinist
M3rd3r is a horrible word and shouldn’t be used, it’s more appropriate to call it despawning, moved to storage, clearing disc space
Adolf? Oh you mean the censor bar mustacheo man? Also known as mistacheo man? Or MM
:3
Love of war is not about the conflict in itself, its about having real values that you are consciously ready to fight for. The ideologies you mention merely replaced the christian god with the state.
Putting it in another way, the state should be born out of a love of life, not the other way around.
No they are not. Only people that misunderstand Nietzsche and fascism think that. Fascist used human principle to manipulate the masses and Nietzsche talked about human principles, but if you break it down like that then you might see that anything could really apply hear. You can say that fascism was founded on both the Bible and Freudian psychology if you’re gonna think about things that way
Obviously the Judeo-Christian culture we’ve grown up in frowns upon violence of any sort. However I believe when WAR specifically became looked down upon, was in WW1. Specifically the new technology like the Tommy machine gun or tanks. When it was men on horseback or with swords, there was still an idea of honour and glory. But seeing the wastelands made on no man’s land, and the countless lives that were cut down with a single magazine of a machine gun, suddenly there was no glory, and it became truly horrific. If the Greeks had the technology we have today I strongly believe they’d view war and violence differently too, not as something respectable or heroic, but something barbaric to be avoided
"Honor and glory" in war was the propaganda told to the people in the aftermath.
Since when does Judeo-Christian culture frown on violence? Remember that whole reconquering of Judea talked about in the Old Testament? Do you think they just walked in with level nine emissaries and regained the land their believed was theirs through diplomacy or do you think they did it with the sword? Maybe you are speaking to a more modern culture? But there's still plenty of preachers out there spreading hate and violence be they Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
May want to rethink that opening statement - that's all I'm sayin'.
Depends on culture and the current challenges/goals they face. East Asian cultures have been spiritually antiwar for millenia, as in conflict avoidant is a core tenet. The realities, however, is they still wage war whenever the elites stand to gain something from it. The Chinese god of war was emphasized in his capacity for protection, benevolence and loyalty, not warfare for example.
It's when a nation exhaust their (perceived) capacity for expansion with current technology that glorification of war slow down. Europe pretty much got done with it in ww1 and esp after ww2. US? the most recent lowest point was after Vietnam and most recent high was War on Terror. Russia? Still going at it since ww2. China? Glorification slowed down during early market reform and now, back on that train as their capabilities are building up and their goal switched.
Great video, I really liked it.
By the way, I guess you are going to talk about dionysian pessimism/ pessimism of strength in your next video, is that right?
I always wanted to make a video about it since I have always disliked how so many people disregard pessimism as a whole as something negative and life denying, then they think optimism is the answer while never making the question if there can be a form of pessimism which loves life.
It’s because pessimism is used as a slang word, obvi no one understands or even knows about the philosophy
im more interested to know your ideas about pessimism.
are you really, unironically referring to nietzsche like he's some kind of pythoness? some death of grand narratives that is
Very interesting topic, I wasn't sure how it related to Nietszche at first but as usual your superb writing style drew me in when it all began to make sense about 3/4ths of the way into the video.
I found your description of glory being the motivating factor for the ancient Greeks, particularly to Achilles, especially interesting. In the modern world "glory" as a motivating factor is ridiculed, perhaps because of our internalized Christian ideal of being selfless. How do you think the concept of glory, and ambition more generally has evolved since ancient times?
It should be pointed out, regarding Elizabeth's editing of The Will to Power, that while she espoused anti-Semitism, Nietzsche himself frequently criticized it in his works.
In the Iliad, they were all aristocrats, they were all wealthy, of prominent families, and cities, they all stood to gain even greater wealth and favor if they achieved their military feasts.
All these war poems and such were by or for men who stood to gain a lot from their military incursions, merchants, governors, kings, princes, all sorts of royals and politicians as well as businessmen, little by little as more poetry was ever given to us by least important men, at least regarding their positions in the war and their respective entities, and their wealth, we are soon to see the poetry of or for those who seem to stand very little to gain from most modern conflicts amongst or by first world nations, people that do not longer feel cheerful once they begin to see death left and right and experiment sufferings on wars that do not longer seem to make much sense for them, as opposed to those higher in the geo-politics hierarchy that are far more aware of the economics and logistics and reasons behind it all, like for example Otto von Bismark who wrote "a Franco-German war must take place before the construction of a united Germany could be realized" on his own personal notes, had he been a poet as well, or had a poet of Homers caliber near him, writing aristocratic poetry for and about his own, he would have written perhaps a poem about the history of Germany, of the key players, of the bankers and kings of the time, and a warning of how it could all turn sour ending in a first world war just as it did, and just as Otto himself said "One day the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans" and this is the kind of insight only great poets like Homer but also men well versed in the understanding of more modern geo-politics would have written about today.
The closest thing of such a man I could think of, was, perhaps, Enock Powell, which failed to become a British Prime minister, and had all the makings of modern Otto Von Bismark and a Homer, and was an intellectual, a soldier, and a politician, if anything he failed at becoming a British PM, and also a failure to amass great personal wealth (or coming from a wealthy family) despite his passion for economics, although, in modern times, I guess that's unnecessary as once one acquires political power, the wealth of the state is at one's will after all, or very much under one's influence if nothing else... so you see, we might not have another Homer ever again, the closest things we have are the notes and memoirs and publications by or at least of famous powerful men, such as John D. Rockefeller, Henrry Ford, or Baron Rothschild, and all the way down to more modern men not necessarily as powerful or as open, but still the type, such as Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates.
You needed to go to war to be considered masculine and for people to trust you as a leader
Nigga use periods
“In the days of old, as I began saying, dreadful deeds were done among the gods, for they were ruled by Necessity; but now since the birth of Love, and from the love of the beautiful, has sprung every good in heaven and earth.” (Agathon in Plato's Symposium)
I mean we still do, every action movie or TV show has good guys beating up or killing bad guys. You can pump out as many anti war films as you want everyone still going to watch it for the express purpose of watching the battle scenes. It ain't just the guys either, even women are extremely obsessed with true crime podcasts.
Id say we glorify violence more today than any other time before. For 3 simple reasons. 1 it's in our nature to do so. 2 The human population is many times greater now. And 3 we have a greater ability to both communicate and spread information.
Just by virtue of scale, there are far more people today who glorify violence than the entire population of greece at any particular point in aincent history.
If this were true we would not have such an intense anti-bullying agenda in schools. The west in particular would not be so anti-war and have protests against it all the time. We would not have equated words to violence and thus have so much censorship on social media in order to protect people from said word-violence. Historical figures like Ghandi would not be revered. Peaceful figures like Jesus would not be worshipped. The list goes on. Yes, we in some ways are still fascinated by violence like with combat sports as that's the nature of things but as a society we are no where near levels of glorification as Ancient Greek
The story I heard from my Philosophy professor on The Will to Power was that Frederich Nietzsche was writing things down and throwing them away as he was going insane and realizing what he wrote made no sense. Then his sister was secretly retrieving these writings from the garbage to assemble into a book.
Ares actually was considered a coward, malicious god spare perhaps sparta and even there war was not glorified this much. It possibly was the different opinion of the each individual in the end.
We don’t glorify violence? I didn’t know we canceled MMA,Wrestling and action movies.
We have rap music and if you give it a listen then you will find that we definitely glorify not only violence but all manner of vice and depravity.
I don't enjoy the Iliad like I do the Odyssey: it doesn't have the same grand structure
of exile and homecoming. The caprices of beautiful Goddesses and the glory of war doesn't have the same significance. This video essay certainly helps put the Greek glorification of violence in perspective.
"Achilles' childhood friend" yeah, they were roommates.
Cousins
The same people that think men are weaklings now are also arguing that ancients didn’t glorify violence like we do now.
This title is laughable. The U.S. has been almost perpetually at war since WWII. Our TV shows, movies, video games, and rap music are insanely violent. The Greeks glorified courage and comradery, not senseless violence.
I've heard some people describe greeks as a people who do not glorify war and violence, at least compared to the romans, and then some stating instead that the greeks do in fact glorify and romanticize war and violence just as much as the romans, they simply didn't have the resource to back up their violence just as much as the romans (and as us, due to industrial production).
What most people get wrong is that the greeks, ALL of the greeks, were not as homogenous as we believe them to be, and each tribe ("ethnos") saw many aspects of life wildly differently than their neighbor of a different ethnic and dialectical group. What the dorian thought of war, philosophy and poetry, was not the same as what an ionian considered normal of the same topics, and the further you moved up north towards Macedonia and other similar tribes and kingdoms, more similar to the thracians and illyrians than their southern greek cousins, the more rural and warlike (and even somewhat "rude") the culture became. The fact of the matter is that we humans of today (at least in western Europe and the USA) are living far more comfortable lives as our ancestors that lived in iron age Europe, who were concerned about daily survival most days of their lives and subject to the whims of nature when the risk of starvation or floods arose.
Ok ok man, you missed a little bit between ancient Greece and modernity - notably humanism. Not nihilism, but an understanding that maybe chopping each other up on the orders of your king is a cruel way to live, that perhaps it is better to find common humanity and reduce suffering. Sure, we seem skeptical nowadays about some grand narratives, especially when they demand your own life and death, but that is the progress of civilization from barbarism. And we have a long way to go still.
Lol most common people weren't murderers back then
Humanism is GAY
Artillery, gas, automatic weapons, etc. seem to have obviated marshal morality which grows exclusively from the realities of hand to hand combat.
How about an Oswald Spangler video? I think it's on theme.
Nietchze lived way too far in the future to have a proper concept of the Greek culture of Homer's time
* But, did the Ancient Greeks really glorify violence?? ... Ares (their god of war) is often portrayed as a spoiled belligerent SOB..... when the Roman World wanted to enact gladiatorial events in the conquered territories of Ancient Greece, the Greeks totally stood against this. The Romans glorified violence, the Ancient Hellenes (Greeks) only had to co-exist and accept violence as their reality as a people at that time in the world... (There's a BIG difference).
You don’t know what you’re saying. Your whole comment is cope because you’re unable to understand how such smart people could be in love with violence
@@homelesskiller If they were "so in love with violence" why did they deny Gladiatorial games in Greece??? Duuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh lol
@@homelesskiller ....Compared to the Romans who conquered them, no way in hell did they glorify or "love" violence in that manner... to the point where they also actively banished the greatest warriors who won for them such as Themistocles and others. Can you provide actual examples or counters based on their history (or is your entire "knowledge" on this subject based on superficial RUclips videos).... prove me wrong!
@@homelesskiller this guy just made you sound like an idiot, get off the net and go get a real education
@@quantum_parker mannnnn.... now you're just being disingenious. themistocles was exiled because his rivals feared him. it was a politically motivated move. Greeks were competitive and they did anything to outdo their peers. Alcibiades bit his opponent during a wrestling much to prevent himself from taking a fall. when his opponent made fun of him and said that he bit like woman, alcibiades retorted and said that he bit like lion. competitiveness like this was common during ancient greek. this is why greeks didn't see tyrants negatively, they just saw them as people who outdid their rivals and made it to the top.
Who said I dont?
The reason we don't glorify sacrifice, violence, war, and death for a greater cause anymore is because our culture today is so pathetically Nihilistic that they don't believe in anything being greater than themselves. The highest "good" in the postmodern west is simply the avoidance of pain and the maximisation of pleasure, i.e. hedonism
its not just the west but every culture in the world, because why would anyone want to not live a life of pleasure
@@jmgonzales7701every culture in the world??? name all of the cultures of the world that do that
@@jmgonzales7701 this is true only with the non-western cultures who are strongly influenced by the postmodern west i.e. korea, japan, latin america, etc
@@homelesskiller asia, the Americas, europe, some parts of the middle east.
@@emZee1994 no wonder most of those nations do well. They practically made life easier than those who glorify violence and war. aka midel est and aprica.
They lived in a violent time. You either were capable of violence or you were dead or enslaved.
To be honest i prefer an honest society that makes clear sentences and actions. The greeks wanted war and thus they made war and art followed it.
Now peopel we dont know decide that men go to war that dont want to for a reason they dont know or care.
But yes we as a society are disgusted at war and violence but still act like the barbarians we are.
No we are worse then Barbarians, we are the aggressors and then later we frame our soldiers as victims in our propaganda.
There is no glory in getting lied to and tricked into a war that has no just reason and after that when you come home you get treated and portrait as a victim of PTSD.
Pretty sure we glorify violence. Or else why we censor boobs but not people getting gunned down, or car explosions etc? Marvel movies are focused on violence and they made billions.
Strength is a Virtue.
Weakness is a Sin.
Weakness is not a sin.
Strength is not a virtue.
Pride and Hatred are sins.
Charity and Mercy are virtues.
@@SuperGreatSphinx
Fair enough, but a weak person can not be virtuous is my point. As the ability to commit evil and chooses not to is a virtuous person.
What?? No.
You are confused with the Romans.
For example war and violence was a animal instinct for the Greeks.
Even Zeus says to his son Ares that he is the most hated of all the gods and that if he was not the son of Hera he would have been banished from Olympus.
On the other hand Romans praised the Roman version of the God of war Mars and consider him a major God in their pantheon and culture.
Excuse me but who is "we" and what makes you think whoever "we" is do not glorify violence?
We dont glorify violence, we all try to glorify peace and diplomacy as much as possible
@@tecategpt1959 you didn't answer his question
@@tecategpt1959Dont we glorify our actions in WW2? taking Iwo Jima, Stalingrad, Berlin for few examples... Hell just look at WW1 and Verdun
Lots of comments in this vein, I’ll address them in a future vid
The Achilles heel of Nietzsche is just materialism.
Great video. But can anyone please tell me why people feel the need to self-censor the word ‘rape’ and yet ‘kill’, ‘slaughter’ or ‘torture’ are deemed acceptable?
Few folk have the time to write that kind of lengthy reply, and fewer still can provide a correct answer.
RUclips is weird about what it notices and can demonetise you almost at random. 'Rape' is usually considered a no-go on RUclips.
@@dale6947 Thanks, I thought it might have something to do with YT.
The answer is feminism
RUclips yeah. I dislike having to do it but I don’t want to risk demonetization/throttling of the vids reach over a word
You should have included that Pope was the translator of these excerpts of the Illiad.
Nietzsche was right about the coming Nihilism and the consequences of Nihilism, but his solution is pretty shallow (although some parts are excellent) because he accepted Nihilism as someting like "the ugly truth of reality", here I must insist he was wrong. Yes the Christian metaphysics were wrong, but Nihilist metaphysics are wrong too. Nevertheless Nietzsche is a must read, but one must go beyond him as there is absolutely Divinity and meaning in this world
N. accepted nihilism? He was all about overcoming nihilism.
@@joejohnson6327 no I completely agree, my criticism was that his solutions are hit and miss. Some of them (ubermensch for example) and great, others fail or are better used like tools in a broader philosophy. His issue was he accepted nihilistic atheism, this bound his hands and made philosophising about meaning next to impossible . With his rejection of the spiritual and the metaphysical his solution for mankind to overcome Nihilism was doomed to never be deep enough to actually move hearts
Take much of what this channel says with a grain of salt, most philosophy it covers is that of Nietzsche. So it’s natural that it will lean to Nietzsche’s worldview
Because they're awesome and we're lame.
18:51 We couldn’t discuss philosophy if not for the brave men in ancient times.
Why is your channel name Hegelian If you dislike Hegel
'And we don't?' Are you sure about that? 🤔
1. Nietzsche hardly ever lived up to his own philosophy. From what I read, when he served as a nurse in the Franco-Prussian War, the sight of blood made him so ill he had to be sent home. So much for his vision of the revival of the good old bloody ways of the ancient Hellenes.
2. If the ancient Hellenic outlook on life was so 'cool' (as gentlemen like Nietzsche made it out to be), it would seem strange that the Hellenes should eventually be subsumed by the Romans, who in turn should accept the Christian religion. One would have thought it should all go in the opposite direction then.
3. It is at least debatable if the nihilistic view constitutes a valid account of our collective predicament and the world we live in. Certainly modern thinkers, scientists and authors like Whitehead, Eddington, Schroedinger, Solzhenitsyn etc think otherwise. Why should I submit to Nietzsche's opinions instead of those others? Don't their views also carry weight?
4. We Asians have our own narratives and intellectual destinies to pursue, and it will be greatly appreciated if the gentle people of the Western world acknowledge this and kindly refrain from imposing their narratives on us (again). Thank you. (Going back to good old Confucius.)
(Edit)5. From what I read, Achilles pursued and killed a young kid named Troilus who could not fight back. Real heroic, huh?
The greeks were among the least numerous of ancient people and yet left a greater legacy than the romans, as Rome itself took from them and spread their culture. They were clearly the stronger ones, specially on a mental level, and as is always the case they were few
@@bomba-gk7ut Any achievements of Greek culture pales in comparison to Western European culture. While Greek culture spread as far as the outskirts of India and the Spanish coast, Western European culture has reached every coastline on Earth, leaving almost nothing left to explore. Spain, Portugal, France, UK and Germany combined can't compare in terms of population to USA, China or India, but it's undoubtedly that their legacy, their technologies, philosophers and art span the whole globe.
@@constipatedwonka8061 ancient Greek culture is about 1/3 of the basis for western european culture (and gave Europe the framework for creating and keeping a strong, innovative society that could outcompete all others) so I don't see your point. The US, the world's most powerful nation, was founded on greco-roman principles and took heavy inspiration from the roman republic (which in turn was so heavily influenced by the greeks that their religion became a parody of greek beliefs)
@@bomba-gk7ut The Western world today absorbed a whole lot more than what came from the Hellenes. There were also Islamic, Indian and Chinese influences. Take these away and the modern West would be *very* different. And my original qualm remains unanswered as to why the Hellenes themselves didn't continue along their original line of development if they were such an amazing people.
Of course, the heritage of the Hellenes is undeniable. And in this respect it's interesting to note that, just as the Hellenes shone brightly for a few centuries and then ran out of steam after the Peloponnesian Wars, so likewise after a few centuries the modern West is also going downhill. Just take a look around you.
It's equally interesting to note that just as *slavery* was an essential part of Hellenic civilization (the Hellenes were the first ever to institutionalize slavery), so likewise the exploitation of other peoples has been and continues to be a hallmark of the modern West. Especially America.
Yup. the Modern West does seem to be recovering many aspects of Hellenic civilization. Dear Uncle Nietzsche ought to be so proud.
@@gwang3103 yeah the greeks had slavery, so did every single people at that time save for the persians lol. Also I agree that the West is in a decadent state, maybe we should borrow some of that Greek vitality to give it back it's power and strength
The way of the warrior is to master the virtue of his weapon, thus attaining fame and power for himself or for his lord.
Can I just say that the real meaning of this story is that of the power of the tiger mom.
Proclaiming the death of grand narratives is itself a grand narrative...
In my opinion, sacrifice is what they held in high regard. Violence,expressed through war, is ultimate sacrifice for something greater than themselves. It is what brings meaning to life. We have lost the meaning of this sacrifice so the world is sick. Drowning in cowardice.
It's more complicated then that, it's not the sacrifice in itself that was meaningfull (that would be a rather christian idea still) nor was it for "something greater then themselfs" which is still a platonic way of thinking. It's about the fact that they loved some things with such vigor that they were ok with dying for them, while people nowadays are completely hedonistic.
@@adamastor9869 when you love something greater than yourself and are willing to die for it is sacrifice. That's not just a Christian idea. People today are individualistic. The only person they would die for is themselves. They have become cowards.
@@shawngoins1129
"oh no people love life and don't want to die how can they"
>what brings meaning to life
Literally no. Death can't bring meaning to life. Life is meaning in itself
@@fwarinben7418 it's not the death that brings meaning, it's the sacrifice. The fact that you don't understand this says a lot about you.
@@shawngoins1129
How much you sacrificed?
The average span of life in ancient Greece and Rome was between 28-35 years of life. I hope this explains the different perspective. One would marry and have children at 14-16 (women), take part in battles offensive or defensive or they would be merchants or labourers or artists or if they were slaves they would spend their lives in the fields tending to agriculture and livestock farming. There was not much to live for, compared to life in the present world. We cannot fully comprehend the situation.
Ah yes, the *_best friends,_* Achilles and Patroclus.
find me the part of the iliad that says that they were what you imply they were
No they weren't *those* kind of friends.
Ah yes, your profile picture says it all with that deceitful character assassination attempt for such a great friendship of two men.
@@user-fy1vn1vh1b If you don't read the sanitised "Christian" version of it, you will know they have that kind of relationship. Contrary to what your religion tells you, the Greeks frequently indulged in bi relationships. It *IS A THING* no matter what you believe. Also, there are a number of peer reviewed research papers that delve into this very topic. You're just too american to understand that.
@@olympusentertainment2638 Ah yes, and you who hide behind a statue's picture think you can judge me based on my pic and comment. News flash for you, dear one: you're opinion is invalid. And if you think that the Greeks never indulged in gay relationships, then brother you have been brainwashed to oblivion.
Who in hells bells is this “we” you keep saying? All humans then now and to come have all loved war. When I received my basic training and AIT in the military the warrior mentality was everywhere. My people, in Bangladesh celebrate the war of independence. Martial glory is everywhere. WWI was, for all its overblown gore, just one war, all who fought in it are dead and gone. In centuries to come it and its participants will be just a historical footnotes.
Who says that "we" don't? You ever watch sports on TV?
Who says we don't do it?
cool thanks i was wondering about this recently
"We don't" bro we make movies about Snipers/ War veteran like they Superheros or forgotten heros.
We glorifying the use of deadly force as young as it used for our benefits.
But we don't burn anymore the nearest city from ours. 😅
They kinda didn't though. I mean, in the Illiad, everyone shits on Ares constantly
Ares is a very specific aspect of war. Specifically, totalizing and honourless violence. Think Hector’s corpse being desecrated. However, violence and war beyond this was valourized.
Really good video, can't wait for the next one!
Now: violence is only allowed by the state..
Just one question. How and where do u get your music and pictures from? I mean how do you choose the music and images.
Not that it needs to be glorified, but accepting it.
In the denial of it, we reached the weak society we have today.
To the ancients, the gods were real. Myth was of the most importance in justifying the way the world was in those times. Imagine how different life would be with this always in the back of your mind. Now imagine war, disease and famine being just a season away from your door step.
All the war movies and shows out there prove ur title wrong
I would disagree. Most countries still glorify their militaries, and that's pretty much the same thing. Maybe not in the conquering way anymore.
Comparing modern warfare waged by democracies of the last centuries to the wars engaged in by the Greeks is a hard comparison. War and battles of the past were not near the brutal meat grinders of the modern age. The glory has been removed by the methods.
What "how" could withstand violence in a world without a "why"?
Wym?
Perhaps we are too humancentric.
His take on war, which I know is a much more elastic conception than mere physical conflict, and like so much of his thought, is aimed towards the over-man. He's not glamorising violence per se but rather, whatever it takes to nourish the soil from which the over-man may spring forth. It may sound horrific to our modern ears ( that's the point) but remember always that this is neither an egalitarian nor soft- petalled philosophy but one for those rare individuals in history that for him were/are the pinnacle of humanity. Neither him, you or myself. I mean, lets not fool ourselves. Also, don't forget how truly horrifying nihilism is or how tragically unimpressive a world full of last-men would be (is).
Can Christianity really stand that much in contrast to this greece? Wasn't it Christian societies who took "Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori" to heart from Constantine to WW1? Maybe that's why the decline of Christianity did not solve the problem, but only made it worse.
Another aspect to keep in mind when comparing ancient to modern are their function in the society/culture. Like for instance, us today view works like the Iliad and the Odyssey as literature(something of merit/worthy of study), but to the ancient Greeks it was essentially their T.V.. Travelling bards, relying on guest-friendship (ξενια), would preform these epics works for aristocracy, and common people. Meaning, a more comparable analysis would be how modern media like movies, shows, video games or plays portray violence.
Another aspect to mention is how different the ancient world was compared to today. War was ingrained into societies, be it defense, offensive, or preemptive. A far more chaotic and dangerous world, and if we are talking about ancient greece, opposing government structures, ethnic rivalries, hordes of pirates, bandits. And that is not including vendettas that could be stoked for centuries. The point being, violence was present in everyday life, even if as a city state you chose to be pacifist. (Side note: I am not saying the ancient world was some sort of hellscape of violence, merely pointing to the contributing factors as to why it is integral)
Today we certainly have influences continuing on from the aforementioned poems or even "The Hollow men" being another famous one. The inglorification of war having roots even earlier. However, we still certainly have glorification of violence within our media and I would argue we do as well for our violence in the real world. But this is where it becomes nuanced.
So while war and violence was impossible to escape in the ancient world, in the modern we potentially do not have to, or possess other alternatives, yet we still actively engage in conflicts. Justifications for the purpose of violence becomes paramount. Once opposing power and people feel they are justified in their action(Depending on the modern case I agree with doing this). As well, some produce propaganda to further propagate their position. Once justification of purpose is met and satisfied(remember these may not be ethical or truthful) glorification follows just not quite in the same way. Anecdotally, look back to how the west viewed terrorists and its conflict in the middle east, or the execution of osama bin laden, or Saddam Hussein. This is not to say that the conflict should not of happened or these weren't bad people who deserved justice. More presenting the nuances of conflict and how we are not much better now just different with more dangerous toys.