Some Major Automakers Are Delaying EV Goals & Embracing Plug In Hybrids - Who, Why, & How!
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- Опубликовано: 29 май 2024
- Episode 376: Join Francie as she talks about the most recent EV auto-manufacturers that have announced plans to delay EV goals and even hinted at a larger focus on plug-in hybrids. What do you think about delays and re-strategizing like this?
Sources used to support today's show:
- Images sourced from respective automakers
EV sales for 2023: www.coxautoinc.com/wp-content...
MB World article: mbworld.org/articles/mercedes...
Cadillac sustainability goals: www.cadillac.com/electric-lif...
Detroit Free Press article: eu.freep.com/story/money/cars...
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Legacy brands were never serious about EVs. The consistent half-hearted attempts that lacked (and in some cases still lack) features that a 2012 Tesla Model S had are proof of this. People aren't buying their EVs not because they don't want EVs, but because they don't want EVs that are more expensive and offer a worse experience than they can get in a Tesla. Now, instead of reading the room and doubling down on their EV efforts, they're giving up.
And yet it's Tesla sales that are tanking.
I want turn signal and wiper stalks, a driver focused instrument cluster, at least some physical buttons and above all else, a car that's screwed together properly. Tesla is a non-starter for me.
@@SirOsisofLiver You don't own a Tesla but know so much about them being "screwed together properly". My 2023 Y has no panel gaps, or rattles and the software is the best in the EV world. Buttons??? This isn't 1974 anymore.
@@SirOsisofLiver Tesla alone makes up half of US EV sales (with only two models- the Model 3 and Model Y- making up 95% of that), making them by far the most popular EV brand. The fact is, the average American who's in the market for an EV is considering Tesla above any other brand.
@@directorjustin And Blackberry was the first widely held smart phone before Apple and Samsung stepped up their game. Being first to market has advantages, but also disadvantages.
The Model S and X sales have dropped off a cliff. Where are the replacements? The model 3 and Y are being propped up with price cuts and government subsidies. The refresh of the 3 was nice, but it still looks like a 6 year old car. Where's the product pipeline? It's really hard to say at this point whether Cybertruck will actually sell or end up being a rolling punchline. The Semi program is stalled while the big truck makers have product on the streets right now, and more on the way.
The legacy automakers, and Rivian have new products in development to replace and upgrade their current cars. Most of the talk about what's coming out from Tesla is AI and self driving bullshit.
@@melvinholland9656 There are a pile of studies now that come to the same conclusion that some controls are much better left as physical buttons. Customer feedback has been consistent too. People hate things like wiper controls being limited to screens.
I've seen and been in enough Tesla products to get a feel for their quality. Some are okay, some are a mess. Owner feedback to Consumer Reports puts them mid-pack at best on reliability, well behind Toyota hybrids and ICE vehicles.
Dec 2021 snowing. I had just gotten my first EV (mach e) a week ago. I had been charging at home on a level 2 and wanted to try out a fancy DC fast charger. The only one in my town was at an Audi car dealership, so I waited till after hours cause I didn't want to look stupid figuring this new tech out 😒 with an audience, especially not an audi sales team audience. So I find it and jump out and wrestle the frozen heavy cord. Feeling great cause I figured out to pull the little flap down that blocks off the CCS portion from the j1772 part, plug it in and jump back in the car. Nothing happens. I thought Ford had the plug and charge ability (but that was only at EA and this wasn't EA). So I jump back out and in true human fashion decide to try reading the directions on the screen. In true CCS charger fashion the screen is non responsive except to say the credit card reader was out of order. Getting back in the car with my wife we decide to see if we can use the app to start the charging. At this point, this might as well have been an IKEA project with two people going in multiple directions and shouting random "helpful" suggestions. Between the car touchscreen, Ford App, brand charger App, and youtube videos we finally are just writing it off as a failed attempt. Frustrated and without a coat (cause I thought this would be like a 1 min fun plug in and test trip) I got back out in the cold and snow and try to unplug, but after a few yanks the connector is not releasing.... Back to the car and youtube... after some more attempts and wondering if I'm just going to leave my car here I finally get the connector to release after pushing the connector in while holding the release button then pulling it out. Today I really don't think twice about DC fast charging. It is no longer the adventure it was that first time even when coming across broken chargers. I always try to remember that first time when dealing with non ev drivers who are hesitant about EVs. Gas or Ev, they are both just cars to me.. today, but its a whole different world when its your first time with this "new tech".
Should have got a tesla...Ford is still learning how to make an ev
Francie thanks for another excellent podcast. My concern with PHEV is that you have all the complexities and cost of two propulsion systems. Yes it may resolve the unnecessary range anxiety in the minds of some. But will the user interface to optimise use of two power trains negate the advantage. With a 50mile on electric PHEV mean people will charge up every (or at least most) so the majority of driving is done on electric? I guess the difference is on whether the EV tariff vs gas prices means it is so much more advantageous to use electricity whenever possible.
I call it rolling back plans of staying in business
yep, it's called reality
Most auto makers are pivoting away from EV and towards more IC because they CAN. EV-only makers are going bust because they cannot make this transition. Producing a competitive modern engine isn't like wiring up some batteries to a motor- it's a little more complex. The same thing happened over 100 years ago, history repeating itself.
They are doing it because they CAN'T build evs at a competitive price.
@@stevey_z Nobody can, hence the subsidies
I think the sweet spot to get more interest in EVs would be 30k-40k with 450-500 mile range or $6+/gal gas throughout U.S.. As an only EV household I lost the range anxiety a while ago but I still remember it and it does take a mental effort to take that first step in switching. Big range vehicles are a baby step I think some/many are needing (even if it is completely wasted) hence the desire for hybrids. Also DC fast chargers in many of the national parks so the "American Family Vacation" is still available. I would also say many of the legacy manufacturers are struggling to dial in the EV vehicle itself. From what @KyleConnor was saying Ford does improvements or their model year is actually half a year and they are still only starting to get NACS in their vehicles in 2025 and that is not even for every model? Others 2026+? These companies may have too much bloat and can't shift quickly enough with the market. EVs may just be too big of a change to handle quickly.
The problem is cars like the Cadillac Lyriq and Audi E-tron just have mid EV specs compared to the mass market brand equivalents. People just weren't seeing the point of paying 20-30k more for an EV with less range or less efficient charging for more luxury features. I drive an ID.4 and there's not a lot of benefit to upgrading to an Audi outside of more luxury options that I could do without.
I have been trying to make people understand that by putting the tariffs on Chinese EVs all that will happen is that US auto makers EV development will languish
Hopefully, it won’t languish. But, if you let Chinese EVs come into US, they will kill the US auto industry causing a tax payer bailout. We’ve seen that before. It is bad for every American citizen. We must NOT give our auto industry to China.
Exactly that was the goal: having to change nothing, continue BigOil's, union's, Detroit3's profits,
choking Tesla -
but collect supposed votes and blame China for everything.
I use my Ioniq 6 for commuting (30 miles a day) and my ICE Chevy Impala for road trips. I don't make recommendations to others but I do believe in voting with your dollar. I do exhibit my EV at Cars and Coffees and EV shows.
Ioniq 6 is a great choice, awesome EV
@@Aztasu Thanks, I LOVE it.
I think everyone saw what Tesla was doing and came out guns-a-blazing and then realized if you put out crappy, expensive EVS no one’s going to buy them. Great analysis Francie!!!!
High costs and capital requirements in this economy are surely a part of these decisions. For the US specifically, the tax rebates are very friendly to plug-in hybrids, even with tiny batteries. The term "electrified" is starting to drive me nuts. I generally am against hybrids with tiny batteries. I have softened my view on hybrids with larger batteries that also are able to drive EV only up to highway speeds so you many can do their daily work commute and around town driving purely EV.
I love my 2013 Volt but it's *crazy* to me that its specs are still comparable to brand new PHEVs. I feel that there should have been so much more progress by now.
@@directorjustinrealistically they are not even comparable. Many plug in hybrids cannot run fully on ev at any speed. Most are ice first with an electric assist.
Hi Francie. I find this topic very interesting. I am a retiree from Stellantis Canada and I am in the company car program. I am looking forward to driving an EV. Stellantis has a number of EV introductions scheduled. The Ram Rev, the RamCharger, the Charger, the Wagoneer S, and the Jeep Recon are all scheduled for this year. The new Jeep Cherokee is scheduled for 2025 and a new Jeep Compass is also on the schedule. I hope they stick with their plans and they have at least one of these EV's on the car program. I would drive a PHEV if I had to, but they haven't offered any in the car program yet. The plant where the Charger is being built is 15 minutes from my house as well as the battery plant that is under construction. A Charger EV would look great in my garage.
The STLA large platform by Stellantis even offers 800V architecture. All of these new vehicles will be awesome for sure, tho they might be a bit pricy
If the said car makers are rolling back on there Ev’s then two things will happen. One the Koreans and the Chinese will take the sales and two they will be paying huge fines for not selling 22% of there sales and next year 28% Ev sales of there total sales.
The entire EV market is only 7% (down from 8% last year) and costs manufacturers and taxpayers a fortune to keep afloat. I say China is welcome to that market if it wants it.
I would either get a Hybrid, or a BEV. I see the PHEV as less effective as either an EV and a Hybrid. You have less range than a BEV and less efficiency than a non-plugin Hybrid. I see the PHEV as a more expensive and less efficient Hybrid, you still have both EV and ICE systems. I acknowledge that there are edge cases where the PHEV is the better solution, but I expect most will not see a return on the extra cost of the PHEV. The PHEV is likely has a lower purchase price than the BEV, but I would expect the running costs to be lower for the BEV.
Cars are phones. Gas/diesel cars are landline phones. EVs are smartphones. Plug in hybrids are flip phones with big buttons. Legacy automotive OEMs and many older or less EV-savvy Americans are hedging their bets and opting for something more efficient and advanced than gas/diesel cars, and less radical a change than full EVs. Something like a less costly and not too daunting flip phone with big buttons. Nokia and BlackBerry make/made smartphones too. However, their production and features are/were a little too little and a little too late.
Cars are not phones...lol
Not really. Evs have a lot of draw backs for the end user while cell phones vs landlines didn’t……. Cell phones and smart was a major improvement for the end user while evs are just a different way to drive with added learning curve and limitations
What are you smoking
Great video Francie, big car companies rushed form the start and just wanted to be first, market will settle itself
I have been thinking about this over the last day, and I am really starting to wonder if these automakers "failed" their EV goals on purpose. I feel like any decent analyst could have predicted that cars north of $60k would have difficulty selling in this market, especially when other cars exist with better range/charging/etc. Maybe the car companies wanted to be able to say "see? there isn't a demand for electric vehicles so we have to keep making ICE."
PHEV is a step in the right direction, for customers that upgrade their vehicle every few years, it will get them a partial electric experience. and in all likelihood their next vehicle will be all electric.
however, imo PHEVs should not qualify for EV tax credits because they are not full EV. but instead take those $ and put them towards building up level 2 charging for those that don't have access to home charging, such as apartments and townhomes that would otherwise not be able to charge where their vehicle is parked at most of the time. these people are less likely to switch to BEV if they can't charge at home, and if their home is not something they can put in charging at themselves, then we need to put a carrot out to the ones that will put them in for them.
GM has a good PHEV platform. VW has good PHEVs in Europe. Looking forward to see what is coming up.
Hello from Seattle the problem is inventory its not moving when you have cars like Mercedes EQB sat a lot for 287 days and it's priced at $38,000 6.3k or 2023 Audi e-tron Q4 297 days on the market Lexus RZ Premium 4WD 363 days but it's ice Vehicles as well. There are deals in the EV car market and you need to make sure that you're not paying any more than you need to and be prepared to walk away when you're negotiating and get that out the door price before moving forward to financing
Legacy brands, including Harley-Davidson cannot shake the traditional way of selling, servicing and marketing their product. The EV divisions "hate" dealing with dealers, sales and service managers who haven't bought in to the EV product and culture. Just the other day the Service Manager said to me and my wife, who we just bought a new EV from, "I don't know anything about these, we have only sold eight of them." We were recently in the DC area and saw a car carrier full of new Mach-e's, that were coming from a dealer in Minnesota heading north east from DC.
How can the service manager say he doesn’t know anything about EVs. Don’t they get factory training?
Several years ago, I read that Chevy Volt owners averaged more electric miles per year than owners of the Nissan LEAF. At the time, the Volt had a 16 kWh battery while the LEAF had a 24kWh battery.
The ICE "range extender" in the Volt made this possible.
In 2013 the Volt had an EPA rated electric range of 38 miles while the LEAF's rating was 75 miles.
As a Volt owner, you could charge to "100%" and drive to "0%" every day with no concerns. If you wanted the battery in your LEAF to last a long time you limited yourself to an 80% charge and were probably uncomfortable dropping below 10%, for fear of entering turtle mode. This dropped the effective range to 70% of 75 miles, resulting in 52.5 miles.
I commuted 36 miles round trip in metro Detroit in my 2013 Volt 10 months of the year, burning about 10 gallons of petrol per year to get through the cold months. There's no way I could have used a 2013 LEAF for that job.
Fortunately, it's not 2016 anymore and the only choice is no longer a first Gen leaf with no battery management, no thermal management, and missing many truly baseline electric features.
Don't need a range extender to go 35 miles in sub zero weather in an EV. Don't even need a range extender to do long road trips in sub zero weather in an EV. You really just don't need a range extender, unless you are in a very, very, very small subset of people who have home charging, regularly go 200+ miles a day, and yet also have absolutely no access to fast charging along that route. They exist. Vanishingly rare.
For me it’s simple. The manufacturers that take ev’s seriously will be rewarded over time and those that don’t will probably have to play catch up. I personally don’t care if manufacturers want to add more phevs or hybrids (even though I think it’s shortsighted) as long as their ev’s are well engineered and have full support.
Knowing the weight of my IONIQ 5 I’m always taken back when reviewers (RUclipsrs) that comment about EV weight negatively skip the sentiment when they announce the weight of an ICE vehicle they are covering that weighs more. EV weight is an old crutch🩼 I promptly and politely use in the comments like “5,400lbs, oh…I didn’t know my EV that seats the same amount of people, is quicker and weighs so much less.” No it’s not a Miata or Porsche light weight but compared to similarly cabin sized ICE vehicles with similar purposes it is a light weight. Using my OBD Scanner data I accurately state “I AC charge 95% electricity (vs 5% public charging electrons) while I asleep and can go 0% to 100% for $13 bucks.” So many “journalists” state the dozen or so hours the included EVSE charges and possible adopters roll their eyes and quit considering. Tesla quit including EVSE that could hinder this but Hyundai includes a 50A ChargePoint which starts the conversation with owners to step up and get that outlet or have it direct wired. You can swap in a J3400 later if the inlet you use changes. I’m not converting many because that is not my mission. Mine to use the EV’s strengths by charging and choosing right. Curious individuals will be reminded with my positive truthful comments that considering only the negative comments about any product review with leave you not purchasing regardless if it’s a toaster, grill or computer. Public charging speeds is important but less so if you leave at 100% and have to charge only once to 80%. Charging a second, third or fourth in a day on a road trip raises the displeasure of ownership if you don’t pick a quick charging EV for that occasional road trip. Infrastructure for the 5% of my charging needs improvement no doubt but it’ll be the owners positives experiences that open someone’s consideration more that zealots preaching EV’s to save the planet. They won’t. It’s a cheap to operate means of transportation. As Tom says “the right tool for the right job.” 12:50
Hard to read, but lots of good points. 1) home charging in the US is still basically a prerequisite. Not a mandate, but strongly encouraged. And if you're considering PHEV, you HAVE to have home charging. 2) I've noticed the misleading weight stuff too. I think batteries are heavier, no don't. But it's like people forgot that Americans buy big heavy cars as a preference. Now, all of a sudden, that's going to ruin the road and their tires XD hahaha. 3)yea, ultimately, having a friend with an EV is going to do so much more evangelism than a thousand people screaming in the comments.
However.. A thousand people spreading misinformation might prevent that friend from getting that EV in the first place..
In America 🇺🇸 that is - not in the EU and China
Which for muricans, Thats the whole world
Non road trip people need affordable EVs and lower income folks have the most to gain by getting rid of their gas bill but can't manage the car payment for available EVs. To be fair there are almost no affordable ICE cars either so they ware in the used market. The issue is the only source of cheap EVs is China and the problem is that people who can afford more expensive cars will also buy them if we let them in. It's not like you can put an income cap on buying something.
Biggest hurdle is PHEVs. People buy them and think they have a BEV. Then they get tired of plugging in every 25 miles.
The problem is governments backtracking on their legislation for stopping production of ice vehicles by 2030. I think manufacturers were all geared up for that move and then several governments rowed back and as ev’s aren’t necessarily a car of choice right now, most manufacturers will need to continue producing cars which most people want(as a business). You can see in Europe the number of new ev’s coming to market which have all suddenly had their production dates delayed.
Manufacturers are a business who do need to listen to the customer. The customer is controlled by the government in what they are and aren’t allowed so blame the governments
Biggest hurdles? Misunderstanding & fear. Also lack of multi family housing charging. Apartments need chargers. And FFS if people would stop vandalizing them that would be great. If you’re a home owner, you should absolutely get an EV!
Personally, I like the serial hybrid concept of the good old BMW i3 range extender. You won't need it most of the time, and you don't want to need it in the time you need it, but it has you covered just in case, all without a huge weight and maintance penalty.
Hi Francie, coming from the PEV world, i.e Onewheels electric unicycles, etc a major concern I've always had is range anxiety. So last summer when I was thinking of going EV, my range anxiety got the better of me and I ended up buying a new 23 Mitsubishi Outlander phev. It's been a great bridge for me because I've learned a lot about EV's since then and it forced me to get a 240-volt outlet installed on the outside of my garage for level 2 charging. I drive 90 to 95 % of my miles on pure EV and just charge it up on level two when needed. I also have DC fast charging on it if needed. I save the battery for bumper to bumper traffic and city driving where it's more efficient and use the hybrid at highway speeds. Now that I've learned much more about EVs through the Out of Spec channels and my own other research, I've noticed that a lot of the pure EVs are very expensive so Im holding off buying a new one for now until they come down in price and in the meantime I have this beautiful phev that I drive on 90% electric anyway.
Wonderful explanation. I did not know that PHEVs could DC fast charge. That's great that you can mostly drive on battery.
@@dianewallace6064 thank you, I believe the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV with the exception of 1 Mercedes is the only phev that has level 1, level two, and DC fast charging. It's pretty cool.
@@mikeintampa250 Thanks, I did not know that. So cool! I will look for one at my charge stops in North Carolina which are rare. I had just put a comment for Francie that "I use my Ioniq 6 for commuting (30 miles a day) and my ICE Chevy Impala for road trips. I don't make recommendations to others but I do believe in voting with your dollar. I do exhibit my EV at Cars and Coffees and EV shows.
"
Can I ask what your driving profile is like that you're using gas on the highway? Do you manage 90% electric because you're never on the highway? Or because you regularly do 100 daily miles on the highway? Kinda surprising numbers.
@@Cyrribrae my pure EV range is 40 to 45 MI ish. I probably drive 10 to 20 miles a day so it's pure EV. But when I go on a longer ride like to Disney which is about 130 Mi round trip, I use the EV for slower sections and for bumper to bumper traffic on the highway that develops. My vehicle has the ability to save battery for later so I save it for those situations on longer trips and then I cruise on the highway 70 mph on b0 ( the least Regen) while in hybrid mode.
Hybrids are nothing more than a gas car with a tiny battery. Maintenance cost is unchanged. It’s the same as putting performance tires and racing strip on a vehicle and calling it a “sport” model. Slightly better than lipstick on a pig.
PHEV is much different though. Normal hybrids still reduce emissions and increase MPG so both are benefits.
Most people consider the bottom line. The cost of a hybrid and the time it takes to recoup a more expensive EV through gas savings, takes a long time. An Avalon hybrid vs a Model S is a big gap. That's what the average buyer considers. High end gt sedans are closer in price to an S and at that point people in that range become adopters and switch as they may demand higher performance. The difficulty comes with hybrid SUVs. They don't get much better mileage than their all gas siblings and you have to put up with the clunky system. Choice is good and Tesla selling 500k per year means somebody is able to make EVs work.
@@LarsDennert Owning 2 EVs and planning to get a 3rd later this year, my incentive is far greater than gas savings. It’s the quiet, smooth acceleration when passing or entering a highway. It’s charging at home which is faster and much more convenient than going to a gas station. It’s the ability to leave AC on when stopping at a store and much greater technology than ICE cars.
Or nothing more than an EV with a tiny gas engine...either way it doesn't seem to make much practical sense, but then they are the result of regulations.
price! + misunderstanding of charging and battery safety, I think plug-in hybrids are something that could work EVEN me but (cost$$) so I don't think it's going to work long term but definitely think there's value in some plug-in hybrid scenarios for some people.
Less portion of factory has to be retrofitted to build hybrids vs electric vehicles . They know it’s a last gasp of air but they refused to lose money for 6 years while reaching economy’s of scale AND PAY TESLA regulatory credits at the same time….. hurts don’t it
VW ID7 is a sedan/station wagon in Europe. Even sedan is not going to be brought to the USA.
Nothing to surprise me if Vinfast is out of North America soon when they can not complete with high demand on Reliability, price and suitable for average folks to commute on daily basic.
Great job, Francie. So, what happened to the big changeover to NACS? Let me guess... Tesla firing the Supercharger team and casting doubt on the future of the network maybe? I was interested in buying an EQE SUV late last year, but I told the dealer to let me know when they would have the adapters and could charge on the Tesla Supercharger network. That was supposed to happen in 2024. It is now June and I am still waiting. Same with all the other manufacturers that were due to gain access this year. And, are they still all changing their charging sockets to NACS for 2025? I haven't heard anything new on that recently. It seems that big NCAS adoption has gone into limbo, unfortunately.
Legacy should thank their lucky stars for Elon being Elon. If it wasn't for him turning so many people off of Tesla, these legacy groups would be in even more trouble.
Electric is 100% great when tethered to home. But can be very stressful when road tripping! Not for most people.
All these brands ignore the segment of cars under 30,000 euros in their offer. VW made a mistake when it discontinued the e-Up and its clones. There is a demand for small city EV. A lot of people just need something cheap to commute up to 50km on workdays and for them an EV is still out of the question. It's no coincidence that Dacia has sold over 140,000 units of the Spring EV, but the car is still 30% more expensive than the base ICE cars. Similar situation is in Japan, where the Nissan Sakura is the best-selling electric car with 64,000 units.
The main reason is the evolution of battery technology is not as smooth as predicted 5 years ago. Only KIA/Hyundai offer fast charging at "normal" prices and even they won't bring it to the affordable segment like EV3. The situation in Europe is further complicated by energy prices, as one country has decided to depend on natural gas imports from an enemy country and shut down its nuclear power plants before the end of their technological life. So the whole region has higher average electricity prices and running a car on public EV chargers is more expensive than running a similarly sized car on diesel.
Proponents of EV's are always very fast to point out how EV prices have fallen and that they're now comparable to gas car prices. That's fair enough if you're comparing a Tesla model 3 to a BMW 5 series or something similar.
What they fail to understand is that most people in the world can't afford either of those in the first place! The biggest car segment, globally, is small cheap hatch backs and small SUV's. Just look at the top sellers from legacy auto. Toyota's Corolla and RAV4, VW Golf, Polo and Tiguan, The Honda Civic and CRV... the list goes on. While you might laugh, for many people, even buying one of these is just a dream.
The mid and upper market has been flooded with EV options. And I mean flooded. That leaves the cheap car sector left. That's a heck of a sector to cash in on. Already, those cars are cheap to run from a fuelling and maintenance perspective. They're relatively "Green" and they also have pretty good resale value, as a rule, and I'm guessing that most buyers of these types of cars couldn't give a dog's breakfast as to the performance credentials of their vehicles. They are price and value driven buyers.
I've got to say, I'm so disappointed in Tesla not targeting this market, despite the challenges. They had the opportunity to produce the VW Beetle of the 21st. Century. Instead, we got the Cyber Truck. All four thousand or so, to date. And it couldn't have landed at a worse time, on the back of record cost of living pressures when austerity is starting to become fashionable because it has to. Cost of ownership now, is everything.
They can go ahead and fall back, and see how well GM sells with their upcoming EVs.
I think the volt was an amazing stepping stone, 30 miles doesn't do crap, 60 to 100 would be an amazing gateway drug for Americans as I've seen it several times with the volt (which is why they didn't want to do it I'm sure)... I think infrastructure, hestency for change, and a concerted effort by media and others to villianize EVs. It ain't gonna win the war but it is slowing down the inevitable.
Short term thinking.
That's the American Way of business. Sadly, in the American business model, long-term thinking is next year, not five or ten years. 😥
@@wingsounds13 There is no 10 years if you are broke in 2 years.
@bob-qi4nr There is no 2 years if you don't plan for 10 years. Short-sightedness is death.
@@wingsounds13 Wow you are sooo smart.
@@bob-qi4nr thank you for recognizing and acknowledging this.
Plug in hybrids are the worst of both worlds. They only make sense for a very small segment of the US population. I also suspect most people with a plug in hybrid will operate it as a typical ice car.
Who will have significant EV offerings in 10 years. Outside of Rivian, Tesla and the Chinese, I'm thinking only Hyundai, Kia and maybe Volvo? That's it.
Significant? (Almost) All of them still alive. Perhaps not EV-only. But significant.
In 10 years I wonder if Tesla will have updated the S, X 3 and Y on an entirely new ground up vehicles platform by then. Their entire lineup looks old rigth now.
It's a disappointing step back and I think they are making a short sighted mistake based on a temporary slowdown in growth, which has still has been growth I might add.
I think legacy US auto brands were too optimistic for growth. Prices need to come down, range increased, and infrastructure expanded before EV growth will expand. We own two EVs, will never buy ICE again, and later this year plan to get a low cost EV for business use. Charging at home or office makes an EV much more attractive.
Hybrids are nothing more than a gas car with a tiny battery. Due short range on battery, many owners can’t be bothered with charging. You have all the same maintenance as a gas car when driving hybrid. They do not deserve any tax credit or rebates.
No automobile purchase should get a tax credit or a rebate, regardless of what fuels it. The concept of taking a dollar from every taxpayer in the country and effectively giving it to a new car buyer is nothing short of being corrupted communism. We should be using those funds to improve public transport infrastructure or to remove our dependency on fossil fuel generated thermal power rather than taking from the all and giving to the one. It's a disgrace.
Statistics do seem to show that most PHEVs rarely get plugged in. They often just get operated as a standard hybrid, wasting any plug-in advantage.
@@wingsounds13 Agree, I’ve read same reports. When the battery is low, they run on gas identical to ICE.
after 14mths of EV ownership I would suggest the major issues are; charging infastructure, charging speed and battery performance in cold and windy weather..........my next EV wont be until the next major leap happens to resolved aformentioned issues
What do EVs have to do with wind?
At what point would you go back to gas, if these issues are not resolved?
@@user-jb2om7cm8m i wouldnt go back but change EV brands especially if theres delay in supercharger availability for CCS cars
EVs wouild be great if you didn't have to charge them.
Quality except for Tesla
One of the main differences between hybrids and BEVs is how electricity is generated. In hybrids (and fuel cells), an on-board engine generates the required electricity locally; in BEVs, the grid serves as an “external engine” generating the required electricity remotely.
BEVs, with all of it’s virtues, also has it’s flaws; one of them being WHEN the “external engine”, aka the grid, fails for extended periods of time, those vehicles will become useless. Keep in mind causes for “external engine” failures are selective blackouts or forces of nature.
Electrification is a common goal, but we need both local and remote power generating solutions and we need to let individuals decide which works best for them.
That's.. a weird conclusion. That "external engine" is substantially more efficient than a car engine. Even a coal plant - worst of the worst - can be cleaner than what comes out of a tailpipe. Let alone renewables or even natural gas.
Secondly, gas availability and pricing is also affected by external factors. Storms disrupt shipments to stations. Conflicts a world away block tankers through the Red Sea. Russia goes insane and prices skyrocket.
And remember, gas stations require electricity to run and most don't have huge generators. These are not reasonable things to plan your car purchase around. You don't worry about them when you buy your ICE car and EV owners should worry even less.
@@Cyrribrae On argument #1: You are using efficiency and emission as counter arguments to my argument which is about grid resiliency. In regard to efficiency, natural disasters don't care about that; as a matter of fact, hurricane Maria efficiently wiped out the grid in Puerto Rico in such a way that the whole island was without power for months and certain sectors for at least a year. In regard to emissions, the consensus is to move away from petroleum based fuels to sustainable renewable fuels that are carbon neutral and some even carbon negative.
On argument #2: While storms can disrupt fuel distribution, stations still have dispatchable fuel which in many cases is enough until roads are cleared to stabilize. Since you bought up politics, which I was careful not to bring up, some of the leading countries that supply critical minerals for batteries are not examples of model citizens either.
On argument #3: In some states, it is required by law to have generators to at least supply power to the pumps in the event of power outages. The required electricity to power gas pumps is orders of magnitude less than for charging stations. The pumps are powered only during the couple of minutes the fuel is being dispatched. For your last two sentences, you have to live in an area exposed to selective power outages and/or risk of natural disasters to realize how big of deal it is when buying your next vehicle.
BEVs are not “Lord of the Rings” one powertrain to rule them all. We need to let customers decide what’s best for them.
@@joebestproductions what a strange response. Feels like you didn't even read your original comment. Your post was on why hybrids make sense. Not only did I not say "ONLY BEV!", I even said pure combustion is better than hybrid in some cases, even though I think BEV is better than both on average. Hybrids don't make sense for most people.
Politics? Huh?? You brought up a bunch of catastrophic hypotheticals to explain why you think electricity doesn't work. I simply explained why thinking this way is silly - that's NOT how we assess risk. I don't factor in the probability of nuclear war into my car purchase.
A BEV has 200-300 miles of range. Let's say you only keep 50% or even 30% in the battery. If you can't get to a stable grid within 100 miles and you don't think it's coming back for DAYS, then we're taking apocalypse level problems here. Gas stations are probably packed full and nightmare factories anyway. Your piddly generators aren't keeping up with fuel demand. Hell freeways are probably jam packed and car transport is a nightmare.
You know what might be the best option? Using the V2H system to run my home's electricity off the EV's battery for a week or so, completely disconnected from the grid.
Point is.. trying to bring up really weird edge cases makes no sense. It's not just unrealistic, it's counterproductive.
@@Cyrribrae I know what I originally posted which can be summarized that hybrids must be part of the solution. Talking about not reading your own post, please point to me where on your response to my original post you wrote or even hinted that "pure combustion is better than hybrid in some cases".
Hypotheticals? Good to know that the hurricanes I've experienced in Florida and Puerto Rico (like Irma, Maria and Ian just to mention a few) are now known as hypotheticals and I guess the Pacific counterparts know as typhoons are also hypotheticals. While I wouldn't either factor in the probability of nuclear war into my next car purchase (straw man argument), natural disasters HAVE knocked out power for days, weeks and even months. This would definitely be a deal breaker if my only vehicle was a BEV. So to be clear, I'm bringing real world experience and not "catastrophic hypotheticals”.
My objective was to bring another reason why we need both fueling and charging solutions. For the millions of people living around the world that endure hurricane/typhoon season every year, if they can only buy one vehicle, would it be a BEV? Some will, but others definitely not. For those that don't, well it's your propagative to see that line of thought weird, strange, silly and hypothetical.
So let's do some role play as dealer and potential customer based on the arguments we presented to this point:
- Dealer: hey I have a great BEV that has a 300 mile range. Are you interested?
- Customer: nah, I prefer a hybrid because I live in an area exposed to hurricanes that in the past has caused power outages for long periods of time.
- Dealer: Come on! I find your argument weird, strange, silly and hypothetical. Not buying a BEV just because of a silly hurricane can hypothetically knock out power for a few days? That's a weird edge case that makes no sense. This BEV has 300 mile range and even if you only keep 50% or even 30% in the battery you'll be able to find a charger within a 100 mile radius. Also you can use your $70K vehicle as a battery to power your home until the grid stabilizes.
- Customer's response cannot be posted here and leaves the dealership.
GM finally realized that they hitched their wagon to the wrong horse (so to speak 😏).
Funnily enough, horses are still far more popular than EVs in the US 😁
Poor charging infrastructure, high prices, uncertain life cycle costs, and a big change in one’s personal life are the reasons widespread adoption will be bumpy and a long-time coming.
Lol. All of it is so manufactured. Not intentionally, perhaps. Big manufacturers see Tesla's runaway success. They announce aggressive targets that we all knew were overly ambitious. They do this not because they really can hit them but because it juices their stock prices temporarily. People get scared because of the overly ambitious timelines. FUD gets spread by people who aren't ready for such a dramatic shift in culture - that was never going to happen that quickly anyway. Manufacturers experience years of covid-driven sky high prices on cars, meaning their low cost ice vehicles are huge profit machines. Manufacturers "pull back" on their overly ambitious timelines that they were never going to hit anyway. People spreading FUD feel vindicated and spread it even harder. Manufacturers throw up their hands and sigh and resign themselves to making a boatload of cash now.... (not paying their workers or preparing for the onslaught of cars that are going to be way ahead of the curve).
Short sighted. All of it. And intentionally so. Which has the side effect of driving all this media about the death of EVs when nothing of the sort is happening.
All of the car companies selling EVs in the US market are going after the same customers. No wonder that market is saturated. There's an old rule of thumb that dropping the price $5k will double the number of customers. The current offerings of cars are overdesigned with technology. The R&D for doing this greatly increases the price, a deal breaker for most.
Also, there still is a shortage of public chargers. This is a big hinderance for those who cannot charge at home or work.
This is the best possible news. I traded my Tesla for a RAV4 Prime and no regrets. EV around town and easy gas refill on road trips. It doesn't get better than that. This is the best short term solution for most people.
Like many, I lost interest in EVs. I'll reconsider in a few years if things improve. For now, I'm sticking with gas powered cars.
Price EVs are more expensive than gasoline vehicles and when you add in the infrastructure issues people are reluctant to get them.
Americans are more convence oriented than environmental. We want to refuel our vehicles in 5 minutes or less and not wait for 30 minutes to gain 100 miles of range.
The big hesitations for me of full EV are range, uncertain charging infrastructure build out / reliability, and depreciation beyond normal. Around 350 miles would be okay if that range was at 75mph in 0 degree (F) temperature with winter tires. I’m still holding onto hope for solid state batteries. As for charging, I’m just concerned that once EV adoption really soars the charging infrastructure won’t keep up with the increasing demand.
I’d love an EV forester that keeps the same size/dimensions.
You want 350 miles range in the least efficient driving mode at significantly below freezing? Lol. Glad to see you're being reasonable 😂
Where in the hell do you live that you need 350 miles on winter tires???
@@Cyrribrae Certainly many of us in Michigan, who might actually want to be able to travel up to 175 miles from our house, without getting stuck at a public charger.
@@user-jb2om7cm8m so.. Again.. You want to do a sub freezing roundtrip road trip and you want to do it without stopping. Why? What a ridiculously niche use case. You can't spend 30 minutes toasty inside your climate controlled EV on your 8 hour back and forth drive? Lol cmon.
You see how far you have to stretch to make this seem reasonable in the slightest?
@@Cyrribrae I can stop at the back of a parking lot and waste 30 minutes in my gas car any time I want. I never have, because my car doesn't demand it and I have better things to do- like get to my destination. It's hardly a niche case, its the reason most don't want EVs, they have lives.
Hybrids suck.
Pure full-on PANIC, right here on display. These “delays” are a RX for DOOM 💀🪦. Hybrids: Service Departments $$ will LOVE THESE! Those who travel, and who only have one vehicle - OK. Two years from now, plenty of DCFCs to go anywhere in the U.S. Most customers can’t believe VW is in trouble. Do research, watch Francie! CHEVY looks to be going forward, with dispatch. Local small-market GM Dealer, with only modest allocations, now has both a few Blazers, AND now Fresh-Baked Equinoxii, and both models are getting good reviews. Drove the 2-motor Blazer - 👍🏿👍🏿 - Perfect “Mom SUV” - a nimble TANK. CHEVY looks “committed”, and no “delays” are apparent. New ‘23 BOLT, (The White Unicorn) in the garage. . .🤗. Love hearing SpringRoll 😢 updates. F, you are “purpose-bilt” for this job of education, and look excellent full-screen! 🙏🏻🎯🔋👊🫶🏿