I appreciate the reminder to not immediately dismiss work just because some of the conclusions can be silly, as there's still very good work involved in the other parts!
The more you pay attention, the more is like that. There is _something_ not quite exactly right in almost everything. We try to minimize that as best we can.
Speaking of moon time sequestration: When I worked in Collections, NMAI, Smithsonian, there were certain objects that could not be touched by female coworkers. I and another male would always have to check these organic mammalian ritual objects for any insect or other infestations. We also had a special vented room where tribal guests could perform blessing rituals using burning tobacco, cedar bark, and other incense type items. If any of the women coworkers that attended were having their moon time, they would be politely asked to leave the room. I worked there from 2000-2004. Most of my coworkers (90%) were of the female persuasion. When I worked in Conservation on a temporary assignment, I was the only male in the Conservation Lab.
It's kinda like when there are modern traditions that are culturally observed and are protected/obscured out of concern for how it might change things for themselves and in the future.
I rarely comment, but have been a fan of this channel a while. I live in south Ga. USA - lots of evidence of precolonial occupation here, chert and pottery shards mainly... stone was traded down, nothing like it for many miles, i line near to the Okefenokee. Anyways love the breakdown and analysis, and the beautifully worded critique. I am just a dude interested in this kind of stuff, and I appreciate good information. Thanks for letting us peek into this world of evolving knowledge.
There is a little museums in Waycross next to the forestry museum, I don't remember the name but they have what is left of a dug out cypress canoe that is 1000s of years old. I'm not sharp on the history of what people inhabited the area that long ago but I'm pretty sure it predates the Creek people. It was just wild to me that something so old was in a little community center but I think it's great it stayed there and not somewhere far away that charges admission or sold into a collection
@@ericbest9562 Yeah, shell mounds on the coast were so big, people mined them as a resource. Built Tabby houses, and other structures. People have lived around here for many thousands of years.
@@mrskinner8473 but were they? Genius? Were they islanders who got here by boat, Asians that continued to migrate and travel. Can you tell us all, without a doubt, 100% positive who came from where and when, and when did They become native American?
Hey Nathanael, would you be able to point me to and or make a video about granite tools? Or any hard stone type tools of these cultures? You've mentioned them in other videos. I find it interesting and useful for citation.
I grew up north of Pittsburgh , Pa. on a farm . It was near Fall Run Park . After we moved away , my dad told me that after he would plow the one field and it rained , many , many arrow heads would turn up . The farm is a plan of houses now . Carnegie museum would come out a get them by the bushel basket , according to my dad . I wish I had just one of them . Who were they ?
This was mentally refreshing! A wonderful look at scholarly debate! You were fair and balanced with both criticism and praise. In today's world it's so nice to see a collegial perspective vs an adversarial one! i found everything You said rational and logical. Your colleague has an emotional attachment to the subject. She makes connections that She wants to be there. But what do i know? i'm just an old man with a love of higher learning. Thank You. i look forward to the next one !:-)
I don't think it's at all fair to dismiss her as having too much emotional attachment to the subject. She's changed her thinking about a lot over the years as new evidence comes in. She just thinks about things differently than most of us.
We all have emotional attachments. They are just different for different people. We can see them in other people more easily than in ourselves. They can see ours more easily than we can, and we typically resent being told.
@@NathanaelFosaaenPoint well taken. You have a much better perspective on Your colleague than i. It was merely an attempt to contrast the two of You. i should have left off at my main point. i admire You very much 🙏💜⚡
Just found your channel friend and love this information you are providing. I've a question for ya. I live in north Georgia and have found a quartz spear tip and many old pottery pieces from the Chattahoochee river on fishing trips. I also do a lot of metal detecting for history. There is an area that's rather large near the Little Mulberry Park in Dacula Ga. where there are hundreds of large stacked rock mounds. The park claims they do not know what they are on a sign posted. Outside of the park I went detecting and discovered hundreds more that had all been dug up leaving holes you could park a Honda Civic in. I found nothing around any of the area but it was obvious that folks had brought in trucks and been highly interested in getting whatever was under those mounds leaving no stone unturned literally. I talked to a guy a couple miles from there a while back that said he had them all over his property too and wondered what they were and offered to let me come detect around them but I never made it over there as of yet. Any ideas on what could have been of such value to dig all of those things up?
Off-topic, but... I have only just learned of Tim Rowe's Hartley mammoth butchery site, notable for heavy use of bone-chip knives and paucity of worked-stone tools, and its firm date of 37kya. Why does no one mention it? Rowe's most interesting offhand remark, in his presentation, was that dozens of North American mammoths are going un-excavated because they have been considered too early to be cultural sites. Maybe you know of some of those in your own stomping grounds? Rowe suggests that the earlier population was from a south-Asian maritime group which lacked or lost the stone tool industry later carried in overland by Siberian migrants. A survey of other potentially cultural mammoth sites you know of would be most welcome. I only learned of the site from an offhand mention in a paper on a phylogenetic analysis of North American native languages, identifying several waves of migration, with the Na Dene family finally arriving only 5kya. Such a late arrival would seem to account for the otherwise mysterious resemblance between Pacific Northwest and central Asian languages, notably Ket.
Crazy to think that I randomly stumbled across your channel, and it's as popular as it is. We met at SEAC in Little Rock a couple of years ago. Excited for Time II?
Good video. Interesting. Your opinion. Could it be a dry cooler place for pregnant women to weave linen, dye cloth,make common oils, and medicines while they are heavy pregnant. Maybe the plants were ingredients for end products. Very interesting
This was an excellent video.. very well broken down and explained.. it is a reminder that our personal biases can give a big lean on our take on somewhat ambiguous information.. And, the more ‘unusual’ the person, the bigger assumptions that can be made.. personally I’d have a lot of “impressions” about it, but that’d be drawn from the mixture of education and life experience, as a woman, who’s had babies, and has now moved to the next stage of not exactly middle age.. but a literal lifetime of ‘bushcraft’, wild edible and herbal remedy study, gardening, small scale farming, and self sufficiency interest, while working as a professional handywoman.. in other words, I see things thru the lens of practicality and survival, but I know from education that the ancient people had a different understanding of their environment. The author of this paper has been making ties with basically unrelated people, it illustrates that sometimes there is a point where a little TOO much information can be distracting.. This was very interesting, I’m glad I found your channel, I’ll have to try and catch up on your catalog.. ATB
I appreciate Nathaniel a lot I think he's an expert at his study ...but the study of the faces and images on Stone is further back than what his study covers... I have many many stones in my rock room that I have not shown ..yet I show the ones with images on them... which both the patina and my surmise is much older than what is called the Woodland time... I have found evidence that folks were on this hill over 10,000 years ago.. but seriously my majority of stone tools are and these are ones I have not shown on a video ...yet they are from a older era than possibly the Woodland area of 4,000 BC... which I might say here also is 3,000 years older than the omec Society ...so one must question what society influenced the other... the thing I'm trying to say is I doubt that Nathaniel runs across tools that are older than 4,000 years ago ...because they looked different ..I think they're there but maybe they're not looking for those type of tools ..and they just step on them and go on... which sounds silly... if they're doing it right those stones are in some Warehouse or something ...I do not know I just know for what came off the top of this hill ...that's all I got to go by ...what I'm saying is maybe he doesn't run across tools that have images on them... but we damn sure know that they are but they're on tools that sometimes has extinct animals on them which could easily place them 10,000 years older than the Woodland. Like What He studies I don't know ..maybe I'm just talking out of my.... whatever
@@rljatfrogpondschool7283 I spoke with Nathaniel and his utube friends a little while back and ya , we clashed at first , then we found respect ! I'm not good at finding and recognizing woodland periods . I wonder why I find the older stuff and don't find too much woodland at all except for the occasional rudementy tool or tip with no imagery or anything . I know more about the ice age than the woodlands . It shows me what the professionals do and know , the way they manage it ! That's why I watch this amazing channel ! I don't bring up my stuff here anymore . It's too controversial and out of time like you said Ray !
Hi Ray ! I wasn't expecting to converse with an ice age friend here ! Nathaniel's channel is one I like because I didn't know as much about the woodland periods as I thought . I keep my experience separate , we find and study much older and controversial artifacts . I try not to confuse the two or let my own experiences cause bious . This is where I learn the woodlands from a free scholarly perspective ! I admire the dedication and honesty of this channel ! Fantasy can cloud reality , I admire the way Nathaniel deals with everything . It looks stressful sometimes but why wouldn't it be .
Yes I agree it's very important to study diligently every aspect of the ancient people I love his channel and there's others that teach me much also about geology about mythology about anthropology I love to learn Nathaniel is an excellent teacher I trust his knowledge because he is a straightforward talking person
Would it make sense that, in early use, foodstuffs were brought to a favorable location and later grew from refuse, and use as well as farming? Like volunteer tomatoes come up next to my deck in late summer?
I think volunteerism was the original inspiration for agriculture, which, given the hand work, was more like serious gardening than what we now thibk of as farming. All human powered, organically fertilised, hand harvested and processed, stored using whatever resources were available for drying, preserving, and containment. Also, the separation during menstruation could easily be by preference on the part of the women, and the whole 'harm the crops/bring bad luck' thing a handy excuse.
I can see why you might think that, but Claassen cites several documented cases of indigenous women going into seclusion during menstruation. "The Alabama ...say that when a woman’s monthly sickness (holotci’ taye’ha) came on she took a blanket and went away to a small house near some stream or spring to live until it was over. . .When the time was passed she bathed and washed all of her clothes thoroughly before returning home (Swanton 1928:360)." Ritual seclusion was also practiced among the Ojibwe, and the practice was banned by the government in the 1800s. (Rosalyn LaPier (Blackfeet, Metis) cites Kim Anderson's "Life Stages and Native Women" on that.) This could be a practice that wasn't adopted until influences from colonization started, but I've never heard of any practice in the Christian tradition in which menstruating women leave the house and stay at a designated "menstrual hut". There's really not much Christian or Eurocentric about it.
@@gnostic268 it's existed in many unconnected cultures, worldwide. I still think it's a great way for women to take a monthly break from the rest of us. Or do i mean, a great way to avoid the monthly....9h, never mind, never mind. She's home now. Gotta go.
This video reminded me of 3 things: 1. Alexander Graham Bell said that he put a great deal of thought into this subject and every advance in science has been made in 3 steps-see something, remember what you see, and compare things to it. 2. In Darwin's trip in the Beagle the Indians around South America were going through a famine. It bothered Darwin that they would eat the old women before they ate their dogs. When he asked "Why?" they said that "dogs catch seals". Women would sometimes figure out they were the next meal and take off. I just saw an 80 year old viking woman who died and her slave woman was burried with her in her viking ship. I wondered what when through the slave woman's mind when the old woman died). I bet she wanted to run for the hills-but I'm assuming. 3. There is a young RUclips Archeologist who spoke of the Bagdad battery. Another Archeologist who works in that field made a video showing better sources which revealed other examples of the "battery" to be message containers for prayers, which blew away the younger archeologist's video. They spoke of "rituals" often being the "go to" excuse for everything. (The young archeologist did a reaction video of the older Archaeologists video of him-numbering 3 combined). I liked this video you just made. We have shelters on every other hill near my place in western PA. They were like outpost hunting camps.
You're referencing Milo Rossi's work on the Bagdad Battery content. I'm a big fan of his work even though he sometimes bites off more than he can chew.
Marija wasn't as wrong as she might have been, and her students like JP Mallory have straightened out her original errors. I think there's a comparison to be made between the two, but not a super strong one.
Great video….I have acreage in pulaski county kentucky near Pittman creek and the Cumberland River….I’m an outdoors man mushroom and animal hunter….my land has 2 over hangs both you can see where fires have been set under I’ve found w arrow heads, theirs a area if you sit their long enough you can almost make out a “village” I dunno how to explain it theirs places that look like old fire pits lined with rocks …2 boulders stick out of the ground adjacent to each other the sticking out part is flat about 4 ft high and big as a double bed at least.. they both have rocks stacked up on the tops of them another 3-5 feet…weird stuff like that …I’ve found 2 arrow heads both broken I guess they would actually be spear heads or blades they are to big for arrows…also when I was tilling a field I found this bowl like deal and a “tool” beside it …Itwas impacted with this yellow powder…..the bowl is dark “rock” I sent pics to uk they said it was a tree root fossil…the tool beside it is a white colored rock one end is rounded like and worn the other wore down to a point…has several marks on it but that’s what it looks like to me just marks…..if you were me what would you be looking for anything particular?any advise is appreciated thanks
Enjoyed this one very much. I actually like that she reaches so far with her speculations. She may not be right but it opens a path/ possibility than can lead somewhere valid. Is connecting Aztec too big of a reach? Maybe not, we have been told so many times that the migration into the americas took place in a certain way, at a certain time, from a certain place … not sure I believe that but if true, I can see that it would be reasonable to expect a belief system across all of the americas to have originated from the same culture and have some commonalities.
I definitely do appreciate how you break it down for us. Without the background education, it is easy to just take for granted that everything is accurate.
Nate, retired researcher here from an entirely different discipline. Peer reviewed papers for decades. Question: does that type [extent] of speculation get by reviewers more easily than in other sci fields? Is the journal legit? Solid analysis, thanks.
What was your field? It's rare for anyone to go so far into left field like she does these days. You should read the actual paper that I linked to in the description. I will say that in the 80s and 90s we went through a phase of indulging much more speculation than we do now because of the influence of some English archaeologists whose work disgusts me thoroughly. But that's a rant for another day.
@@NathanaelFosaaen.. oh now that is brain teaser.. saying you can’t stand some English archeologists and not saying who😁.. I hope you do at least touch on some of that rant.. lol Educated perspective is what draws us past the fluff ‘documentary’ into looking for videos like yours.
The "R" word.... The fireplace mantle may be a vistigial, ritualized, former workspace in today's culture... But you do not have to go back many decades here in Appalachia to find its original function. Before rural electrification and this new-fangled room called "kitchen", the fireplace was where cooking was done, and the "ritual space" called mantel served a definate "working" function, as smoke control, gantry crane for spits and pots, warming and drying rack, and a host of other duties now relegated to "kitchen countertop".
17:08 thank you for the definition of “ritual space” but I have to say that I know people who *do* store TP on their mantels, and their power tools on the dining room table… ahhh. civilization.
I know I am late to this party, but I did have a question and I was wondering if anyone could answer. Once, many years ago, someone told me that mensuration was much more rare in pre-industrial communities. The argument was that women would almost always be nursing or pregnant, and the times when they were neither were likely to be associated with famine. Everyone in the comment section is sort of talking about this like it was a monthly event, but if it was more like, 2 or 3 times between each child, that gives it a very different sort of rhythm. It would also be something that happened more as you aged, because it typically takes longer to get pregnant any more. On the other hand, there's also the time after birth and during and after a miscarriage. Our modern perspective is that mensuration is common and that birth and miscarriage are exotic. I wonder if that would have held.
Partially because it's well stratified. Back before radiocarbon dates were really practical, the Russell Cave excavations made it possible to understand material culture change as it took place over 10,000 years. It's a foundational site for southeastern archaeology.
I can see the need to take into account evidence from multiple sites that have varying accumulations over time of artifacts of similar cultures in order to determine the potential usage of the sites. This particular account would also seem to act as a warning to avoid going into a site with a predetermined narrative in mind. I understand that a certain amount of speculation is required in order to begin the discussion of the potential usage of a site but that it’s also questionable to draw conclusions without direct evidence.
That's not quite what's going on here. If you read the actual paper (link in description) she talks about how her interpretations changed as she was reviewing the site data.
Strangely, I woke up this morning thinking about this video. LOL. I think she does the same thing I do in that I come up with a novel idea, that very few do, then I over shoot it. I have the gut feeling she is right but goes too far. You gave an example of a child burried between slabs to refute, in a way, her ideas around that child in the cave yet nothing to refute the distances along the back wall. Have you ever seen pits against a back wall seemingly equidistant from each other? Surely, its either common or unusual. As I'm in that "race is nearly run" part of my life I see parallels I never imagined in my youth. They say there is a tiny thread between genius and crazy and I now think I know why. That same part of my imagination that tells me to glue a spoon to the roof of a microwave to stir soup as it heats and spins is the same imagination that now make me hear things that aren't there. We're all human.
I have long thought that the field of archaeology would be improved by the inclusion of more. women. It is refreshing to see the results. Clossen has pointed out a long held female tradition of retreating during exclusively female times. This retreat goes back at least to biblical times. Men have to be specifically trained to look for female influence at ancient sites. Across the world, throughout time, a girl's first menstruation is a special time between mother and daughter, and it is celebrated; just as it was with me and my mom, and me and my daughter. Ritual. The field of archaeology has a lot of rethinking to do.
Well said! Yeah the weird thing is that women have been super influential in the field since the early 20th century. It's kinda surprising that the Patty Jo Watsons and Madeline Knebergs didn't get on this stuff first until you actually look at the kinds of research they were interested in.
about the thoughts on women during their cycle causing food to go bad, i have to tell you that people in europe thought that at about the same time. and northern indigenous peoples had trade networks so the idea that people would have heard stuff from far away isnt that crazy.
I would like to know both you and Dr. Clawson (sp?). I can see her out in left field seeking evidence of an inspiration or an inspiration to explain new evidence. I hope there’s time for it … but in an academic treatise? “Why not?” says the naivety within me. Maybe she doesn’t care. Maybe she can get away with it at her level, and she counts on it, following inspired bread crumbs in hopes that her footnotes will lead Hansel & Gretel to a millennial discovery long after she is gone. I love it. I love you, Nathanael, for what you do for the sake of my understanding. BTW, I’m an MD. The better half of medicine is listening to people in hopes of helping... ‘Tis pure bread crumb at times and lovely to distraction.
@@NathanaelFosaaen You need to take a history lesson man. Did you not learn the poem "in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue" in grade school?! I think you need to go back to 3rd grade Mr. "archeologist"🙄
Is these shelters for women menstruating and pregnant? Or women menstruating and giving birth… being pregnant and giving birth are very different… and only two of them involve blood. Menstruating and giving birth
Do you somehow imagine that these women are waiting for their water to break to hike up a mountain and give birth in the shelter? Claassen is saying they're going there in late-stage pregnancy to give birth.
@ yes… that’s what I was thinking… instead of just staying there the whole time… “pregnant women” is just an ambiguous longer term time period… Also, in many coastal Salish communities the after birth would be buried in a specific location… but it was very hush hush knowledge where that was to be buried… seems like there are probably a lot more “rituals” around birth giving than lay people (like me) know..
@ also… these areas can’t be too far from the community… I really can’t imagine a late term pregnant woman hiking up a mountain to get here either… I think I need to re-watch this video..
@@NathanaelFosaaen There are two very different perspectives there, though; one is that pregnancy is inherently a cause for seclusion, which means the issue is deciding when pregnancy really starts. Quickening? The other is that childbirth (and recovery) are the reason, and that women would go to the retreat earlier because, as you said, they couldn't wait until they were in labor. I do wonder about miscarriages and pre-term labor. Those can be pretty messy and traumatic, and the onset can be pretty quick. It would be a test of cultural priorities, I guess, to see how much it was worth investing in getting a woman into these shelters in the midst of a medical emergency. I would suspect there were stop gaps--places you could go outside of the community that were not so far away, and perhaps you retreated further when you were able. Places like that could be much less permanent.
Nothing changes but the cast and setting. As always, the men were away to work - hunting and dying. Women stayed behind, gossiped and played at politics.
The supernatural idea of women and a destructive gaze reminded me of the tale of the White Buffalo Calf women. That does establish a belief systems in a Indian culture. In the tale men were looking to mate with a women that didn't desire it? In regards to a group of medicine women living, working together. I can say there is some truth to that in some tribes. My great grandmother was one as was her mother. The idea of separating women and using medicines to possible aid fertility or hinder fertility seems plausible. As for rituals it could also be seen as a way to offer a fetus that did not survive back to the goddess in hopes of better survial rates for future fetuses tribes often offer a sacrifice in hopes of better hunting of wildlife and dead fetus would be considered a bad omen. I looked up the goddess referenced and that would make sense from a perspective of one who would teach native tribes hygiene. Says she was of the dirt that ate feces and urine. Guys take it out of the cave or it's nasty full of diseases lol!
Maybe you shouldn’t say it. I’m not saying you’re wrong, mind you. I’m saying you don’t have to say (or write) everything you think. [looks around nervously]
Dude, you would do best by giving the facts, and let us figure out what we want to believe. I like your videos, but when you go off bashing other people for half your video. You stopped making your point and have lost my attention! I have to try very hard too finish your videos. I took the time to tell you too help save your message. Most of the people you are spending half your videos talking about. I have never heard of! You are their best advocate. Maybe come up with something more interesting than talking about other's? Can't lesson to anymore. Sorry bro, when you evolve maybe you'll still be around and I can check you out again.
Didnt watch for his opinions
From my own experience, I can confirm that pregant women do indeed have death rays that they can shoot from their eyes. Great presentation!
😂
I appreciate the reminder to not immediately dismiss work just because some of the conclusions can be silly, as there's still very good work involved in the other parts!
The more you pay attention, the more is like that. There is _something_ not quite exactly right in almost everything. We try to minimize that as best we can.
I live about 20 minutes from Newts Kash. Am glad you made this video so I could learn about people who were here long before me.
Speaking of moon time sequestration: When I worked in Collections, NMAI, Smithsonian, there were certain objects that could not be touched by female coworkers. I and another male would always have to check these organic mammalian ritual objects for any insect or other infestations.
We also had a special vented room where tribal guests could perform blessing rituals using burning tobacco, cedar bark, and other incense type items. If any of the women coworkers that attended were having their moon time, they would be politely asked to leave the room. I worked there from 2000-2004. Most of my coworkers (90%) were of the female persuasion. When I worked in Conservation on a temporary assignment, I was the only male in the Conservation Lab.
It's kinda like when there are modern traditions that are culturally observed and are protected/obscured out of concern for how it might change things for themselves and in the future.
I rarely comment, but have been a fan of this channel a while. I live in south Ga. USA - lots of evidence of precolonial occupation here, chert and pottery shards mainly... stone was traded down, nothing like it for many miles, i line near to the Okefenokee. Anyways love the breakdown and analysis, and the beautifully worded critique. I am just a dude interested in this kind of stuff, and I appreciate good information. Thanks for letting us peek into this world of evolving knowledge.
There is a little museums in Waycross next to the forestry museum, I don't remember the name but they have what is left of a dug out cypress canoe that is 1000s of years old. I'm not sharp on the history of what people inhabited the area that long ago but I'm pretty sure it predates the Creek people. It was just wild to me that something so old was in a little community center but I think it's great it stayed there and not somewhere far away that charges admission or sold into a collection
@@ericbest9562 Yeah, shell mounds on the coast were so big, people mined them as a resource. Built Tabby houses, and other structures. People have lived around here for many thousands of years.
Yea it's called native Americans genius
@@mrskinner8473 how about we just call this stuff "human ingenuity" and enjoy what our ancestors may reveal to us.
@@mrskinner8473 but were they? Genius? Were they islanders who got here by boat, Asians that continued to migrate and travel. Can you tell us all, without a doubt, 100% positive who came from where and when, and when did They become native American?
Another awesome video. Such an underrated channel
I've stored power tools on my dining room table before, and that is because they are very important to my ritual.
Sounds like Dexter lol
“What the crackhead hell”is now permanently added to my list of favorite terms of reference. Thank you 😂
Me, too! 👍🏻
Holy Gregg Allman! I found a new archeology channel. Nice.
Hey Nathanael, would you be able to point me to and or make a video about granite tools? Or any hard stone type tools of these cultures? You've mentioned them in other videos. I find it interesting and useful for citation.
I grew up north of Pittsburgh , Pa. on a farm . It was near Fall Run Park . After we moved away , my dad told me that after he would plow the one field and it rained , many , many arrow heads would turn up . The farm is a plan of houses now . Carnegie museum would come out a get them by the bushel basket , according to my dad . I wish I had just one of them . Who were they ?
Thank you very much for pointing out that ritual is not what most people think it is.
Great video! Thank you.
Impressive commentary. Thanks, Nathanael.
This was mentally refreshing! A wonderful look at scholarly debate! You were fair and balanced with both criticism and praise. In today's world it's so nice to see a collegial perspective vs an adversarial one!
i found everything You said rational and logical. Your colleague has an emotional attachment to the subject. She makes connections that She wants to be there. But what do i know? i'm just an old man with a love of higher learning. Thank You. i look forward to the next one !:-)
I don't think it's at all fair to dismiss her as having too much emotional attachment to the subject. She's changed her thinking about a lot over the years as new evidence comes in. She just thinks about things differently than most of us.
We all have emotional attachments. They are just different for different people. We can see them in other people more easily than in ourselves. They can see ours more easily than we can, and we typically resent being told.
@@NathanaelFosaaenPoint well taken. You have a much better perspective on Your colleague than i. It was merely an attempt to contrast the two of You. i should have left off at my main point. i admire You very much 🙏💜⚡
Just found your channel friend and love this information you are providing. I've a question for ya. I live in north Georgia and have found a quartz spear tip and many old pottery pieces from the Chattahoochee river on fishing trips. I also do a lot of metal detecting for history. There is an area that's rather large near the Little Mulberry Park in Dacula Ga. where there are hundreds of large stacked rock mounds. The park claims they do not know what they are on a sign posted. Outside of the park I went detecting and discovered hundreds more that had all been dug up leaving holes you could park a Honda Civic in. I found nothing around any of the area but it was obvious that folks had brought in trucks and been highly interested in getting whatever was under those mounds leaving no stone unturned literally. I talked to a guy a couple miles from there a while back that said he had them all over his property too and wondered what they were and offered to let me come detect around them but I never made it over there as of yet. Any ideas on what could have been of such value to dig all of those things up?
Off-topic, but...
I have only just learned of Tim Rowe's Hartley mammoth butchery site, notable for heavy use of bone-chip knives and paucity of worked-stone tools, and its firm date of 37kya. Why does no one mention it?
Rowe's most interesting offhand remark, in his presentation, was that dozens of North American mammoths are going un-excavated because they have been considered too early to be cultural sites. Maybe you know of some of those in your own stomping grounds? Rowe suggests that the earlier population was from a south-Asian maritime group which lacked or lost the stone tool industry later carried in overland by Siberian migrants.
A survey of other potentially cultural mammoth sites you know of would be most welcome.
I only learned of the site from an offhand mention in a paper on a phylogenetic analysis of North American native languages, identifying several waves of migration, with the Na Dene family finally arriving only 5kya. Such a late arrival would seem to account for the otherwise mysterious resemblance between Pacific Northwest and central Asian languages, notably Ket.
Crazy to think that I randomly stumbled across your channel, and it's as popular as it is. We met at SEAC in Little Rock a couple of years ago. Excited for Time II?
Very excited! What did we talk about?
@NathanaelFosaaen Music mostly. I remember you were at UT-Knoxville, but not what you were studying, unfortunately.
Good video. Interesting. Your opinion. Could it be a dry cooler place for pregnant women to weave linen, dye cloth,make common oils, and medicines while they are heavy pregnant. Maybe the plants were ingredients for end products. Very interesting
Practical !
Another really great video! Thank you, Nathanael.
Any idea on how many years it takes to make those mortar cups in boulders 6" deep?
Depends on the pestle material and how regularly and intensively they were used. Also how deep they were ground out in the first place.
I'm liking your perspective on learning that you display in yourself.
This was an excellent video.. very well broken down and explained..
it is a reminder that our personal biases can give a big lean on our take on somewhat ambiguous information..
And, the more ‘unusual’ the person, the bigger assumptions that can be made..
personally I’d have a lot of “impressions” about it, but that’d be drawn from the mixture of education and life experience, as a woman, who’s had babies, and has now moved to the next stage of not exactly middle age.. but a literal lifetime of ‘bushcraft’, wild edible and herbal remedy study, gardening, small scale farming, and self sufficiency interest, while working as a professional handywoman..
in other words, I see things thru the lens of practicality and survival, but I know from education that the ancient people had a different understanding of their environment.
The author of this paper has been making ties with basically unrelated people, it illustrates that sometimes there is a point where a little TOO much information can be distracting..
This was very interesting, I’m glad I found your channel, I’ll have to try and catch up on your catalog..
ATB
Some people just see what they want to see . Thank you for keeping this grounded !
and some people don't look around at all.
I appreciate Nathaniel a lot I think he's an expert at his study ...but the study of the faces and images on Stone is further back than what his study covers... I have many many stones in my rock room that I have not shown ..yet I show the ones with images on them... which both the patina and my surmise is much older than what is called the Woodland time... I have found evidence that folks were on this hill over 10,000 years ago.. but seriously my majority of stone tools are and these are ones I have not shown on a video ...yet they are from a older era than possibly the Woodland area of 4,000 BC... which I might say here also is 3,000 years older than the omec Society ...so one must question what society influenced the other... the thing I'm trying to say is I doubt that Nathaniel runs across tools that are older than 4,000 years ago ...because they looked different ..I think they're there but maybe they're not looking for those type of tools ..and they just step on them and go on... which sounds silly... if they're doing it right those stones are in some Warehouse or something ...I do not know I just know for what came off the top of this hill ...that's all I got to go by ...what I'm saying is maybe he doesn't run across tools that have images on them... but we damn sure know that they are but they're on tools that sometimes has extinct animals on them which could easily place them 10,000 years older than the Woodland. Like What He studies I don't know ..maybe I'm just talking out of my.... whatever
@@rljatfrogpondschool7283 I spoke with Nathaniel and his utube friends a little while back and ya , we clashed at first , then we found respect ! I'm not good at finding and recognizing woodland periods . I wonder why I find the older stuff and don't find too much woodland at all except for the occasional rudementy tool or tip with no imagery or anything . I know more about the ice age than the woodlands . It shows me what the professionals do and know , the way they manage it ! That's why I watch this amazing channel ! I don't bring up my stuff here anymore . It's too controversial and out of time like you said Ray !
Hi Ray ! I wasn't expecting to converse with an ice age friend here ! Nathaniel's channel is one I like because I didn't know as much about the woodland periods as I thought . I keep my experience separate , we find and study much older and controversial artifacts . I try not to confuse the two or let my own experiences cause bious . This is where I learn the woodlands from a free scholarly perspective ! I admire the dedication and honesty of this channel ! Fantasy can cloud reality , I admire the way Nathaniel deals with everything . It looks stressful sometimes but why wouldn't it be .
Yes I agree it's very important to study diligently every aspect of the ancient people I love his channel and there's others that teach me much also about geology about mythology about anthropology I love to learn Nathaniel is an excellent teacher I trust his knowledge because he is a straightforward talking person
Thanks Nathaniel 👌. A definite Like 👍. Cheers from 🇨🇦🍻🙏.
Would it make sense that, in early use, foodstuffs were brought to a favorable location and later grew from refuse, and use as well as farming? Like volunteer tomatoes come up next to my deck in late summer?
Of course!
I think volunteerism was the original inspiration for agriculture, which, given the hand work, was more like serious gardening than what we now thibk of as farming. All human powered, organically fertilised, hand harvested and processed, stored using whatever resources were available for drying, preserving, and containment. Also, the separation during menstruation could easily be by preference on the part of the women, and the whole 'harm the crops/bring bad luck' thing a handy excuse.
@@armandbourque2468Separation during menstruation is a Eurocentric and Christian concept that didn't exist in Indigenous cultures.
I can see why you might think that, but Claassen cites several documented cases of indigenous women going into seclusion during menstruation.
"The Alabama ...say that when a woman’s
monthly sickness (holotci’ taye’ha) came on
she took a blanket and went away to a small
house near some stream or spring to live until
it was over. . .When the time was passed she
bathed and washed all of her clothes thoroughly
before returning home (Swanton 1928:360)."
Ritual seclusion was also practiced among the Ojibwe, and the practice was banned by the government in the 1800s. (Rosalyn LaPier (Blackfeet, Metis) cites Kim Anderson's "Life Stages and Native Women" on that.) This could be a practice that wasn't adopted until influences from colonization started, but I've never heard of any practice in the Christian tradition in which menstruating women leave the house and stay at a designated "menstrual hut". There's really not much Christian or Eurocentric about it.
@@gnostic268 it's existed in many unconnected cultures, worldwide. I still think it's a great way for women to take a monthly break from the rest of us. Or do i mean, a great way to avoid the monthly....9h, never mind, never mind. She's home now. Gotta go.
Facts matter. Thank you . I always enjoy your work.
This video reminded me of 3 things:
1. Alexander Graham Bell said that he put a great deal of thought into this subject and every advance in science has been made in 3 steps-see something, remember what you see, and compare things to it.
2. In Darwin's trip in the Beagle the Indians around South America were going through a famine. It bothered Darwin that they would eat the old women before they ate their dogs. When he asked "Why?" they said that "dogs catch seals". Women would sometimes figure out they were the next meal and take off. I just saw an 80 year old viking woman who died and her slave woman was burried with her in her viking ship. I wondered what when through the slave woman's mind when the old woman died). I bet she wanted to run for the hills-but I'm assuming.
3. There is a young RUclips Archeologist who spoke of the Bagdad battery. Another Archeologist who works in that field made a video showing better sources which revealed other examples of the "battery" to be message containers for prayers, which blew away the younger archeologist's video. They spoke of "rituals" often being the "go to" excuse for everything. (The young archeologist did a reaction video of the older Archaeologists video of him-numbering 3 combined).
I liked this video you just made. We have shelters on every other hill near my place in western PA. They were like outpost hunting camps.
You're referencing Milo Rossi's work on the Bagdad Battery content. I'm a big fan of his work even though he sometimes bites off more than he can chew.
Awesome breakdown! Learned alot! Thanks so much for sharing your understanding.
2:21 Just for reference, are we speaking prof. Marjia Gimbutas level of conclusions?
Marija wasn't as wrong as she might have been, and her students like JP Mallory have straightened out her original errors. I think there's a comparison to be made between the two, but not a super strong one.
Loved this. In my rather "male, pale and stale" world I crave a different insight into living.
@18:30, Dr. Digsdirt throws down.
"It's about time."
Great video….I have acreage in pulaski county kentucky near Pittman creek and the Cumberland River….I’m an outdoors man mushroom and animal hunter….my land has 2 over hangs both you can see where fires have been set under I’ve found w arrow heads, theirs a area if you sit their long enough you can almost make out a “village” I dunno how to explain it theirs places that look like old fire pits lined with rocks …2 boulders stick out of the ground adjacent to each other the sticking out part is flat about 4 ft high and big as a double bed at least.. they both have rocks stacked up on the tops of them another 3-5 feet…weird stuff like that …I’ve found 2 arrow heads both broken I guess they would actually be spear heads or blades they are to big for arrows…also when I was tilling a field I found this bowl like deal and a “tool” beside it …Itwas impacted with this yellow powder…..the bowl is dark “rock” I sent pics to uk they said it was a tree root fossil…the tool beside it is a white colored rock one end is rounded like and worn the other wore down to a point…has several marks on it but that’s what it looks like to me just marks…..if you were me what would you be looking for anything particular?any advise is appreciated thanks
You might get in touch with Joe Endonino at Eastern Kentuky University. He uses sites like that to teach field schools.
Brodi what kind of pills are we taking 😀
Enjoyed this one very much.
I actually like that she reaches so far with her speculations. She may not be right but it opens a path/ possibility than can lead somewhere valid. Is connecting Aztec too big of a reach? Maybe not, we have been told so many times that the migration into the americas took place in a certain way, at a certain time, from a certain place … not sure I believe that but if true, I can see that it would be reasonable to expect a belief system across all of the americas to have originated from the same culture and have some commonalities.
I definitely do appreciate how you break it down for us. Without the background education, it is easy to just take for granted that everything is accurate.
It may have been an iteration of a "sweat shop". Making textiles, processing lipids, possibly cradle board manufacturing, etc.
This was excellent! Thank you!
Nate, retired researcher here from an entirely different discipline. Peer reviewed papers for decades. Question: does that type [extent] of speculation get by reviewers more easily than in other sci fields? Is the journal legit? Solid analysis, thanks.
What was your field? It's rare for anyone to go so far into left field like she does these days. You should read the actual paper that I linked to in the description.
I will say that in the 80s and 90s we went through a phase of indulging much more speculation than we do now because of the influence of some English archaeologists whose work disgusts me thoroughly. But that's a rant for another day.
@@NathanaelFosaaen.. oh now that is brain teaser.. saying you can’t stand some English archeologists and not saying who😁.. I hope you do at least touch on some of that rant.. lol
Educated perspective is what draws us past the fluff ‘documentary’ into looking for videos like yours.
The "R" word....
The fireplace mantle may be a vistigial, ritualized, former workspace in today's culture...
But you do not have to go back many decades here in Appalachia to find its original function.
Before rural electrification and this new-fangled room called "kitchen", the fireplace was where cooking was done, and the "ritual space" called mantel served a definate "working" function, as smoke control, gantry crane for spits and pots, warming and drying rack, and a host of other duties now relegated to "kitchen countertop".
17:08 thank you for the definition of “ritual space”
but I have to say that I know people who *do* store TP on their mantels,
and their power tools on the dining room table…
ahhh. civilization.
And for those people, the mantel is either a different kind of ritual space, or not a ritual space at all.
I know I am late to this party, but I did have a question and I was wondering if anyone could answer. Once, many years ago, someone told me that mensuration was much more rare in pre-industrial communities. The argument was that women would almost always be nursing or pregnant, and the times when they were neither were likely to be associated with famine. Everyone in the comment section is sort of talking about this like it was a monthly event, but if it was more like, 2 or 3 times between each child, that gives it a very different sort of rhythm. It would also be something that happened more as you aged, because it typically takes longer to get pregnant any more. On the other hand, there's also the time after birth and during and after a miscarriage. Our modern perspective is that mensuration is common and that birth and miscarriage are exotic. I wonder if that would have held.
What was so special at Russel cave that it became a National Monument?
Partially because it's well stratified. Back before radiocarbon dates were really practical, the Russell Cave excavations made it possible to understand material culture change as it took place over 10,000 years. It's a foundational site for southeastern archaeology.
@@NathanaelFosaaenThx 🌿
I can see the need to take into account evidence from multiple sites that have varying accumulations over time of artifacts of similar cultures in order to determine the potential usage of the sites. This particular account would also seem to act as a warning to avoid going into a site with a predetermined narrative in mind. I understand that a certain amount of speculation is required in order to begin the discussion of the potential usage of a site but that it’s also questionable to draw conclusions without direct evidence.
That's not quite what's going on here. If you read the actual paper (link in description) she talks about how her interpretations changed as she was reviewing the site data.
@@NathanaelFosaaen I’ll give it a shot.
Strangely, I woke up this morning thinking about this video. LOL. I think she does the same thing I do in that I come up with a novel idea, that very few do, then I over shoot it. I have the gut feeling she is right but goes too far.
You gave an example of a child burried between slabs to refute, in a way, her ideas around that child in the cave yet nothing to refute the distances along the back wall. Have you ever seen pits against a back wall seemingly equidistant from each other? Surely, its either common or unusual.
As I'm in that "race is nearly run" part of my life I see parallels I never imagined in my youth. They say there is a tiny thread between genius and crazy and I now think I know why. That same part of my imagination that tells me to glue a spoon to the roof of a microwave to stir soup as it heats and spins is the same imagination that now make me hear things that aren't there. We're all human.
But Querida, why must you go to the women’s seclusion camp?
Dearest, it’s for your safety. I don’t want to scorch you either my eye beams.
My kitchen table has a power tool on it right now. And for the past 2 weeks.
This tells me that your kitchen table isn't the same kind of ritual space as my mom's is.
Granite is protectiin from plasma . In the dug out with granite roof. I believe they were used for shelter from massice plasma lightning storms
Greeting from the BIG SKY.
I have long thought that the field of archaeology would be improved by the inclusion of more.
women. It is refreshing to see the results. Clossen has pointed out a long held female tradition of retreating during exclusively female times. This retreat goes back at least to biblical times. Men have to be specifically trained to look for female influence at ancient sites. Across the world, throughout time, a girl's first menstruation is a special time between mother and daughter, and it is celebrated; just as it was with me and my mom, and me and my daughter. Ritual. The field of archaeology has a lot of rethinking to do.
Well said! Yeah the weird thing is that women have been super influential in the field since the early 20th century. It's kinda surprising that the Patty Jo Watsons and Madeline Knebergs didn't get on this stuff first until you actually look at the kinds of research they were interested in.
The Leakeys trained up generations of female anthropologists and archaeologists.
@@sciptick The Leakey's were trying to find the bones of first humans in Africa; a far cry from "Blood, Crops, and Weaving in Ancient Appalachia."
Am picturing an indigenous version of the Oracle or the vestal virgins...
That hawk was dope!
about the thoughts on women during their cycle causing food to go bad, i have to tell you that people in europe thought that at about the same time. and northern indigenous peoples had trade networks so the idea that people would have heard stuff from far away isnt that crazy.
I would like to know both you and Dr. Clawson (sp?). I can see her out in left field seeking evidence of an inspiration or an inspiration to explain new evidence. I hope there’s time for it … but in an academic treatise? “Why not?” says the naivety within me. Maybe she doesn’t care. Maybe she can get away with it at her level, and she counts on it, following inspired bread crumbs in hopes that her footnotes will lead Hansel & Gretel to a millennial discovery long after she is gone. I love it. I love you, Nathanael, for what you do for the sake of my understanding. BTW, I’m an MD. The better half of medicine is listening to people in hopes of helping... ‘Tis pure bread crumb at times and lovely to distraction.
12:44
"What the crack head hell,..." 😂😂😂😂😂
How can there be archaeology in America we've only been here since 1492.🤷♀️
You're joking, right?
@@NathanaelFosaaen Joking about what
@@dpelpal people have been in America for over 20,000 years.
@@NathanaelFosaaen You need to take a history lesson man. Did you not learn the poem "in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue" in grade school?! I think you need to go back to 3rd grade Mr. "archeologist"🙄
@@dpelpal this is premiem tier troll content. 🤣
Festooned is a good word ☆
Is these shelters for women menstruating and pregnant? Or women menstruating and giving birth… being pregnant and giving birth are very different… and only two of them involve blood. Menstruating and giving birth
Do you somehow imagine that these women are waiting for their water to break to hike up a mountain and give birth in the shelter? Claassen is saying they're going there in late-stage pregnancy to give birth.
@ yes… that’s what I was thinking… instead of just staying there the whole time… “pregnant women” is just an ambiguous longer term time period… Also, in many coastal Salish communities the after birth would be buried in a specific location… but it was very hush hush knowledge where that was to be buried… seems like there are probably a lot more “rituals” around birth giving than lay people (like me) know..
@ also… these areas can’t be too far from the community… I really can’t imagine a late term pregnant woman hiking up a mountain to get here either… I think I need to re-watch this video..
@@NathanaelFosaaen There are two very different perspectives there, though; one is that pregnancy is inherently a cause for seclusion, which means the issue is deciding when pregnancy really starts. Quickening? The other is that childbirth (and recovery) are the reason, and that women would go to the retreat earlier because, as you said, they couldn't wait until they were in labor. I do wonder about miscarriages and pre-term labor. Those can be pretty messy and traumatic, and the onset can be pretty quick. It would be a test of cultural priorities, I guess, to see how much it was worth investing in getting a woman into these shelters in the midst of a medical emergency. I would suspect there were stop gaps--places you could go outside of the community that were not so far away, and perhaps you retreated further when you were able. Places like that could be much less permanent.
Nothing changes but the cast and setting. As always, the men were away to work - hunting and dying. Women stayed behind, gossiped and played at politics.
The supernatural idea of women and a destructive gaze reminded me of the tale of the White Buffalo Calf women. That does establish a belief systems in a Indian culture. In the tale men were looking to mate with a women that didn't desire it? In regards to a group of medicine women living, working together. I can say there is some truth to that in some tribes. My great grandmother was one as was her mother. The idea of separating women and using medicines to possible aid fertility or hinder fertility seems plausible. As for rituals it could also be seen as a way to offer a fetus that did not survive back to the goddess in hopes of better survial rates for future fetuses tribes often offer a sacrifice in hopes of better hunting of wildlife and dead fetus would be considered a bad omen. I looked up the goddess referenced and that would make sense from a perspective of one who would teach native tribes hygiene. Says she was of the dirt that ate feces and urine. Guys take it out of the cave or it's nasty full of diseases lol!
Women troubled by emotional PMS do have that crazy look, just sayin.
Classy.
Maybe you shouldn’t say it. I’m not saying you’re wrong, mind you. I’m saying you don’t have to say (or write) everything you think. [looks around nervously]
Flint Dibble kick GH ass.
As far as the death ray vision goes, I think there are a lot of men out there who would agree women on their periods have death ray vision.. 😂😂😂
The drunken arkiologist 😂😂😂😂
I thought it said bloods, crips, and weaving 😂
Dude, you would do best by giving the facts, and let us figure out what we want to believe.
I like your videos, but when you go off bashing other people for half your video. You stopped making your point and have lost my attention!
I have to try very hard too finish your videos. I took the time to tell you too help save your message.
Most of the people you are spending half your videos talking about. I have never heard of! You are their best advocate. Maybe come up with something more interesting than talking about other's?
Can't lesson to anymore. Sorry bro, when you evolve maybe you'll still be around and I can check you out again.
What?
I don't know about your theory but women did all the work.
Are you drunk again 😂😂😂