Will 240 18650 cells in parallel be better than 80 in parallel?
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Creating one 320P14S battery from three 80P14S batteries to see if larger batteries stay more balanced and give extra capacity - IT WORKED, it needs heavier cables between batteries to make one true battery but I'm dead pleased with the results.
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Pete
#diypowerwalls #hbpowerwall #18650ed #diypowerwall
5:02 You're an absolute madman for running that without any shoes on. You had me cringing the entire time.
Anyway, watching your videos has inspired me to start building my own pack. I've been salvaging cells from old laptop and modem packs for a few years now, and I've gotten a few hundred of them tested and ready to go. I'm going to make a relatively small battery to run an inverter for power outages.
Shoes are optional lol
DIY Tech & Repairs did a multi-pack -> one-pack balance youtube with small wires - and discussions I've seen is that even though its counter-intuitive, you just don't need hi-amp wires to 'balance' between packs. The power to run the house will follow the buss-bars -> inverter wires etc as it always did and will not flow thru the balance wires. However, I'm excited to see this experiment on a powerwall in real life :) Thanks for this video series!
kenneth almond,
hbpowerwall is not worried about current going to the inverter or vice versa. his statement was quite clearly that he thinks a thin wire will not balance as much.
however i don't think thicker wires will do much more balancing if any at all. the longmons wires are very thin too and take 2amps. the thin wires are for safety in a case of short circuit, they quickly burn out before doing much damage.
also, hbpowerwall seems to have much experience in burning out wires.
Just found your site tonight, can’t wait to get started on my own banks and save a ton, the cheapest 24v 100Ah is above the 1100$ range around here.. but will have to buy one of those to get my solar array actually working 😃
Been looking into lto batteries, 18650 size are ranged atound 2.3-2.4v 1.5Ah per cell
Thanks for another great video. When you cut your grass my daughter said "Daddy, he has no shoes" LOL.
It seems like every other video i do is in no shoes for some reason lol
yes, noticed this too, it highlights hbpowerwalls safety aspects, in other things as well.
@@ursodermatt8809 Please do not try to spin my fun comment into something negative. I personally thin HBPowerwall is extremely safe in all things.
@@DavidPozEnergy
i wasn't spinning anything, i was serious. you obviously totally understood. that was my intention.
safety first, whether it is boeing, davidpoz or hbpowerwall.
I noticed that too. Pete you look so relaxed in thongs (sandals). I cant even go bare footed in my house without being uncomfortable.
Good idea. I thought that from the start but you have a very big system. So who was I to say anything. Ps. Mine is still going strong. 330$ credit so far. Fit is $0.20 so very happy. All thanks to you.
Holy cow so many battery banks awesome 👏 👍 Cool video
a few dozen lol
Thanks heaps for the update. Great to see what you're up to!
Still active with building packs I just think the content is getting stale - hence the mini
WOrks for me the more I add in parallel the easier it is to keep the balance up to 384p now. Most I have seen is 7 amps but usually it is .7 or less
it works, i have portions of my system wired this way.
Thing is i don't think it is working :( well not well at anyrate
@@HBPowerwall interesting, maybe you have a few cells with to high resistance and as you charge they use up more power to take the same charge.
I defiently have a few poor packs and found one heater yesterday :( That's the first thing to fix
@@HBPowerwall Haha sick, love your system
A low cell has higher capacity or resistance? If we say that it has a higher capacity then it takes more power to reach from for example 3.9v to 4.0v but if we say that it has higher resistance generating internal heat rather than stored energy, the same amount of power brings all the individual cells to 4.0v however, the cell with higher resistance remains at 3.9v. Also, keep in mind that high resistance while charging without heat production generally means high capacity.
I'd really like to see a schematic of the entire wiring setup.
I don't see how that could be making any difference, but it clearly is. I'd also be interested to know what the resistance of those little leads is, if your meter is sensitive enough or you're interested in doing a load test to calculate it.
Those little cables are near useless and will need to re-do it with larger cables with suitable fuses... The idea behind it was more usable capacity with little to no expense.
@@HBPowerwall yeah I understand what you're going for, I'm just surprised that you didn't end up with long mon smoke/errors or bright yellow little wires :)
Great info here. If a single cell goes flat, I wonder how to track that one down and replace it, without mangling up the whole pack by disconnecting each cell in parallel. I'll keep watching vids. Thanks.
Lots of videos on my channel, I use a flir thermal camera to find faulty cells as most of the bad cells are self discharging and get warmer than the rest.
@@HBPowerwall I'm definitely subscribing, liking, and commenting more on your vids. That's a very intelligent approach, noting internal resistance considerations. Cheers bud and bravo on the accomplishments. 💪🤙
The geezer really knows what he s doing must be an electrical engineer of some sort i haven t a clue with lithium batts only use led agm s on my solar
I'm just a guy in my workshop having a crack..
This is unrelated but regarding the MINI EV CHANGEOVER if you are looking into having regen through your batteries then you should look at implementing MAXWELL 500F @16.2v Ultracapacitor 6 packs in series. I use them in Offgrid Solar situations where huge amp loads are being drawn on a 12v 1200 Ah Lead Acid battery bank while using a 240v twin element Induction Cooktop which when looking at 3500w drawn at 12v is 322 Amps. Each 16.2v 6 pack can transfer 170 Amps which I have 3x 6 packs in parallel meaning that they can handle up to 510 Amps of continuous current which a Lead Acid could not handle at all but if you have most of the 3500w coming from the solar panels feeding from the Solar Charge Controllers directly into the capacitors & then going into the Inverter the power drawn from the batteries is minimal.
When you use the capacitors in a regen situation on your car the huge amounts of regen power fills up the capacitors instantly which whatever type of chemistry batteries you are using cannot normally take that power without damaging the cells or shortening their life critically. This is why most EV cars dial down their regen amounts because they don't want to cook the batteries. Tesla has involved itself with MAXWELL for this reason to reduce the current amount of batteries in favor of using a split system whereby they can use the maximum amount of regen to put back into the car without needing to have such a huge battery & also they are working on a drycell battery that has the capabilities of a supercapacitor which can be recharged instantly at high current plus have the benefits of storage capacity of typical batteries.
What happens is the resistance of the pack gets lower by adding more batteries in parallel. This cancels out the lower capacity cells more and more and the voltages are better matched.
You really need to have fuses on them wires that run in between each battery to protect the wires should there be an over-current senario. Also, not save to remove the longmons... If one of those wires were to burn up (or fuse blow if you add fuses...) you would never know based on looking at the Batrium. With one longmon on each pack still, they're all protected.
I really have to re-think this idea! It worked well in my head
Wouldn't running them in bigger cell counts just hide bad cells more easily? Granted, bigger cell count per group reduces BMS cost/complexity and how often you have to troubleshoot a pack.
THAT was exactly the thinking starting out, but the bigger batteries stay more balanced for longer. That and I built with what i knew and understood at the time. But the community has come a long way and the bigger batteries are lasting longer and are FAR more balanced in the lower voltage range
@@HBPowerwall Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind when I build my wall.
@@HBPowerwall thanks for sharing 🎉
Cool
Life has a way of getting in the way sometimes....looks good thus far
It sure does - thank Lou
Sex with the wife is a pain when I just want to soldier.
You’re DNA is broken Jamie lol
@@HBPowerwall my DNA has had three kids and I lost both testicles 2 years ago in a motorbike accident so I can't ejaculate so an orgasm is out of the question so I found orgasmic pleasure from being alone in my workshop.
Please excuse my ignorance here, but does having more cells in parallel simply mean you cannot see the detail any longer and that is why they appear more balanced? Yes the pack is more balanced, but not necessarily the individual cells ability to cope. The more apples in the barrel, the more difficult it is to see the rotten one?
THIS ! this is the exact reason i made 80p packs in the first place - BUT they are much harder to keep balance, especially the way I did it in the early days.
@@HBPowerwall ummm, not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing, not that it particularly matters to me.
I just finished 100p 7s battery, with 2500-2900 mah cells, and do not have anything to test them thoroughly, they should be in the 280+ ah range, my charger tester times out before I get below 3.7v, going from 4.0 to 3.7v takes 24hours, and is near 50ah they all seem close in capacity, and all have nos cells, ( new old stock) from new modem Batteries, I have the ISDT T8, and been using it constantly for about 6 months! Charging and testing 8ah lipo, and the 18650 packs, and I also have a Nissan leaf bank that is modified to 2 packs of 7s, they are only about 40 ah each, so 80 ah total, I have another 100p 7s to assemble! I need to figure out a BMS, I have balance leads on everything, and capacity testers, and volt meters to keep a check until I do get a decent BMS! I'm thinking about connecting every cell together like a big battery, also to halp with balancing, and to allow a single BMS. I also thought about doing it like Going off grid did his, with multiple cheaper BMS,
Great vlog Peter. Wish I could get another 1400 batteries.
You and me both! Thinking i need 100kwh of storage :)
Hey Pete, what you did makes cents. I had exact idea for my wall upon it getting bigger. All for the same reasons. The theory is the bigger the pack means less drift. I would think you may get away with the size of link wires but stress them quite quickly under load, then later burn out.
I couldn't see where the cable come from the packs to the breakers switches, but if I can suggest the take positive and negative from the most diagonally opposite ends off the packs to replicate as an individual pack for better heat distribution, not that there should be any to speek of.
Dose this sound plausible?
I don't know 🤔
This sounds like a good idea, BUT in the short term before you take out the bad cells is there not a risk of those bad individual 18650's bringing them packs down faster under heavy loads and possibly overloading the balance ability or if the balance copes with it perhaps the bad 18650's could turn to heaters or worse.. just idle thinking here mate, not trying to scare ya. Let me know what ya think. Your the one with a working system after all. :)
The bms I used wouldn't allow me to make them all separate. So my battery is hooked up in a 500p 6s pack
I can't wait to see the results, I'm interested to see what happens when you double up the small wires? Will it carry 4 amps or stay at 1.7 amps?
Very interested! Great video and very informative, God bless you and your family!
This worked VERY well considering the 2 hours work and a few dollars in parts - still need to make some bigger wires and retest all my batteries but that takes time and ... lots of it lol BUT very much worth the effort i think
@@HBPowerwall My concern is that linking the cells across the packs is that you are reducing the "breaking capacity" effectiveness of the main fuses which were previously dedicated to only a single pack. Adding fuses to the interlinks may help, but it gets complex trying to work out were the failure modes will shunt the current, If you are making it into a single string, then you are going to need a fuse with a very high breaking capacity, say 3000 amps, for about 10 amps per cell
What you are up to is more dangerous than before. The behavior of a 18650 doesn't change, just the number of cells. A bad cell that thermally endangers the other cells rises. The resolution on your monitor will also be less clear. The drift as it is now is good for you. Because it shows you better the aging of the cells.
I agree totally - and i'll be redoing it to a degree - the end goal was to have more usable capacity with out having to upgrade cells. Like if you were on a desert island and had not other choice. (is that a good explanation? )
@@HBPowerwall The problem is the performance adjustment. You do this when measuring the capacity by combining the same sizes. This behavior remains, no matter what size.
However, the risk of heat build-up due to containers that are too large increases. I strongly advise permanent temperature monitoring. An exploded cell is enough for a chain reaction.
Once they are balanced you could increase the wire diameter a lot and then they will be truly bigger packs.
@HBPowerwall what's the discharge rate you can run on setting up batteries like this.. for instance, if I had 4 "packs" like yours in an rv.. would it run a 4k watt inverter?
On this battery I can happily pull 100 amps all day till she is flat with out warming up the cells, you COULD run a 4k inverter but you probably shouldn't if you want your batteries to last.
Good 👍 ❤ from VietNam 🇻🇳
Thank-You
Have you done a video for batrium? Would love to learn more
Heaps of videos about the BMS love them about to upgrade to a WM5 & MM8 from Batrium
You should avoid using those ring terminals or any type of terminals at all really due to losses & resistance. It would be cheaper plus less resistance in any connections if you cut a longer amount of cable sheaf to twist the wire into a ring then solder the ring. You can still put a small tube of heat shrink tubing over the twisted end that loops back around the straight part of the wire so that it is insulated up to the point where the ring goes under a washer or nut or whatever.
perhaps but that takes too long.. and the idea in my head was these active balancers only move one amp so this would work well.. since found out its a stupid idea. Time for V2
@@HBPowerwall what was stupid about it?
any plans for lifepo4 or something else. thinking ive got to do something better than lead.
u mm so the wiring is the same through out just now you are linking jumpers to paralel the other packs to make 7 s 240p
have i got that right ?
14s just wires top to bottom on each terminal
@@HBPowerwall sorry yeah 14 s
ok
presumably you will hasve to re route the thicker power wires too at some point
Been trying to follow alone for a while now.. quick question.. do you have only one longmon per 80 cell pack? Also how does it get the battery temp when it is installed on the plastic part of the battery holder and not attached directly to the batteries?
I still have 3 per 'battery' so to say really need to reduce it down to only one as that's all it needs it's just i know you don't mess with cabling unless there is an issue! lol There are so many temp sensors that you can see the differences from the bottom of the shed to the top and left to right so you can see a problem well enough and a lot better than nothing at all. Also even if it was direct to cells might get a better temp on the cells under it but not the other 99% - also have the issue when in bypass it will heat the cell.
Consolidation is good! However, with the cells in a cellgroup now physically far apart, and 1 longmon for them, you can't monitor all the pack temperatures anymore.
I think the last 4 years is testimony that this might not be a big problem.
Should still be able to tell you if the building is on fire or not though... :-)
Hi.. Can I use 2 bms parallel ?
hey, how can i get some of your cell?😁😁😁 im newbie building a small set up, btw nice video..
You don't want mine, but you can buy your own :P
A bit puzzled
Your monitor shows 56 cells, but in your shed you have 42 cells? Are cells 43 through 56 part of some other battery?
There are 42 in the battery shed as I call it, and another 12 behind the monitor in the 'powershed'
what's the best 18650 battery to use ?
U should build 18650 battery pack with BMS for EV.
nar, that's madness - just buy Tesla Modules
I feel like you have taken charge of this battery wall
It was a very good idea, but really should have (and still havent) remove 28 of the longmons..
Will you charge and discharge yourebatterys below freezing ?
I don't think that day will ever come here in Brisbane Australia
18650😍
Hello friend, I have a Watchmon 4 on my Nissan Leaf battery, it was working good, i add 7 more cells of battery, so i had to change few things on the software , when i was doing that my Watchmon 4 lost all the LED's and no communication with my laptop, how do i recover it back, do you had this kind of issues , please let me know if you have.. much appropriated .keep up the good work by giving second life to all the used batterys.
if you lost communication on your watchmon 4, one of the volt sensing cables might be faulty.
have you reprogrammed the watchman 4 for the added 7 cells and device synced? if the green lights stop flashing somewhere along the chain, that is were that particular cell is disconnected.
i got a whole load of faulty cell wires from batrium. the ones that have hotmelt glue on the plug. it caused me problems no end and years later they still fail and have to be exchanged for new ones
@@ursodermatt8809 Thanks a lot for your reply, all my voltage sensing boards have green lights, only supervisor has no lights at all, when i go to the software , it says my USB is not connected, i try new USB cable too same thing.. it has no communication with the computer, therefor no LED lights on the watchmon supervisor.I will check all my wires for loose connection tomorrow morning, just to make sure, it is Sunday night here in California, however much appreciated any feed back Sir.
@@TheKandyGuy
try wifi, as i remember you have to tell the software whether to use wifi or usb
Can I connect 24v 100ah gel battery and a 24v 200ah battery to the same busbar
Technically yes. Not the best idea tho
I think I beating you, I would have a max of 360p 14s but I know you got more cells than me. I am taking a rest for a bit because waiting for a shed (actually a 10ft shipping container turning into an office type), so I can fit all my batteries in there.
hi, do you think a cooling mechanism is required at such high voltage/wattage? thanks
Depends on many factors. For my configuration and load it’s fine with no cooling at all
cool man
👍
Is your powerwall batteries safe in a shed outdoors??
Have you done any large loads on that powerwall?
It's now been in service for 6 years or so, yes it's outdoors, has BMS, has 120 temp sensors, has large loads applied daily, we use around 20 kwh out of the battery bank each night or when the sun isn't shining much more.
how much electricity do you need to watch electricity?
one watt?
How big or should i say what is your total KWhour now?
Total useable 75kwh - but only 50 in service
looks like HBPowerwall's insurance is very risk friendly
it's not the most enjoyable part of the hobby...
Oof mate, the sped up footage of you doing some weed whacking with the Ryobi was a real ear bleeder. Consider leaving that out in the future. =) Cheers!
no problem with my ears.
Headphones? I do take care to tripple check audio these days. I'm sorry
@@HBPowerwall Yeah, I'm not usually on headphones when watching youtube, but I was the day I watched this latest update. Perhaps that's why the sped up weed whacker came across as especially obnoxious to my ears where it didn't bother other viewers. Either way, always appreciate your content and looking forward to the next vid in your mini build series, cheers!
Good hell did we need that weed whacker whining and screeching at us? Otherwise good stuff.
Necessary evil unfortunately lol
How to contact you, I want to learn and help people who really need this all, maybe we both can travel together and do it
Sorry bud to busy to travel sorry but i have 100's of videos that you can use to learn from my successes and mistakes
Why you say meaw instead of normal Now?
Editing/Mic/Lazy i'm guessing
so out of balance...why and using the Batrium...from the uk x
shit batteries lol
Batrium is cool thing, but OMG 27 dollars for each cell monitor?
It is SO expensive ...
Unfortunately it kills all profit of the product
Sound like you work for free :) I know I don't, my inverter company doesn't, hell I have to pay for water..
@@HBPowerwall Not all people have sallary like in the USA. And if you have salary 100-200-300$ - this amount is HUGE for any project. I am sure that this price can be lower, and the amount of sold items could be bigger.
did 80litre of gasoline is better than 50l of gasoline ?
Depends if your BBQing or burning a forest...
@@HBPowerwall sorry ive just simply trolled title , because for me , no matter circumstances MORE amps is always better :) ive not even view video , it was like , so spontaneous , take this as a friendly joke have a nice day
240 insead of 80 . is like 3X more Amps hours ready to serve , just take my cash and give me somes battries lol
Dude you're gonna lose a toe edging barefoot
35 years of this dodgy process and still not stupid enough to go near my feet with it.. Don't worry I got this!
did anyone else cringe when he started using a string trimmer with no shoes.
I'm a big boy, and done it that way for too may years :P
He must work for a battery scrap company...
He does not.....
@@HBPowerwall 😂😂😂
You lost me 🤷🏼♂️🙈
At what point - how can I explain better?
I have been subscriber of your channel for a long time now, i dont really watch your videos, because its irrelevant for me. What i have noticed over long time that your powerwall project is cool and stuff but it requires a lot of monitoring and maitenence. Its nice project but i would never use something like this for myself, its just too much of a headache.
Understandable, the money it's saved me in powerbills along plus the learning curve it awesome - also the community interaction is preaty cool so it's not all about the wall.
You might as well have done your toe nails with the strimmer whilst you were there.
That would have been a time saving idea... Just gota make stuff work :)
and again bore feeth lol
car died due to spark plug? why the hell aren't you driving an EV? haha
Working on it dude!
@@HBPowerwall awesome . model 3 owner here
Never own a model 3 owner here! lol
too much time taken for no real benefit, ypu just like playing with Tech.
Defiantly a few hours lost - but learnt something so not so bad.