Yeah good point multiple are always trying to improve I mean I am so I’m always watching these videos because I’m trying to improve myself and do better in most things and most of the time 🎉
Couldn't agree more, Daniel. Being intentionally negative is just asking for rejection. It's true that some people have gotten away with it, perhaps because of their "fame" or whatever, but for most of us, it would be the wrong approach. Thanks for the always-good ideas.
I like that you are promoting a positive vibe. I remember the 90s and it wasn't like that. It was frustrating to be around a lot of negative people in the industry. I worked alot around magazines and art galleries back then. I hope the industry has changed.
Great topic Mr. Daniel Norton! I have to say 2 things have taken place. One compared to the old days of Film Point & Shoot cameras todays cellphones take pretty decent images. And two unfortunately the concept of DIY has taken over many things. I do agree that is better to approach potential clients in a positive manner and sometimes you even throw in a freebie to get them to see quality. Keep making great videos and thanks for loving what you do and share in your channel!
Thanks- I don’t think it’s just that the cameras are better, which they clearly are, it’s the fact that you can see the images right away that I think makes your average snapshot better than it was back in the film point and shoot days
" Old Sayings " really do have meaning, if we think about it, we will see that they are true and have meaning. After your video, which I really liked, the saying " Catch more flies with sugar " came to mind.
Yes, exactly what you said. This is business, this is not being an artist and trying to say your art is better. Telling a potential client that their current photos "suck and are not good", translates into the following: "you, the boss make bad decisions and you do not know what you are doing" - this means you just insulted the intelligence of the boss... I approached a company wanting to help, the boss was kind enough to educate me, saying it doesnt matter, he doesnt even need photos, and askes, will my photos increase sales? From that point, I approach from the angle of, "how can I help increase sales". A note to those who armchair complain (me too one time) all the photographers that we complain about, they got the job, we didnt. Its about how to provide an image that helps their business, not one that is technically better. ---- Your school event example is spot on!! kudos. -- this is how I worked my way up to head photographer for los angeles fashion week. I would shoot the runway for free, give a few sample retouched photos to the designers, and most important, I talked with the designers and I asked what their needs were, not here is me being an artist and you get what I give you.... That attitude of what does the client need, shot me up from sideline runway to head/house just a couple seasons. -- sorry for long rant
Thank you for your advice. I like the positive approach. I think being positive, being respectful and being humble is a good thing. That's how I got my gig at the animal shelter. I don't get paid for that but I love doing it and I think in the long run it will eventually help me get paying clients who want portraits of their pets. Don't get me wrong. I'm not doing the shelter work just to get paying clients. I love it when an adoptable pet gets his/her forever home. That makes it all worthwhile for me.
Great video, thank you! People buy people, so as you say, if your images are of a good enough standard, and they like YOU, you’ll get the work over an amazing photographer with a not-so-great personality!
Great video, I've made that mistake before! It's very tempting to tell the client how bad their current photos are. Seems like some people just don't appreciate what good photography can do for them and their business. Funniest response I got was "Yeah we deliberately didn't want good photos because we don't want too many enquiries"!!!
Thanks, Daniel - you're the coolest uncle I never had! 😄 Totally agree about the positivity side of things - I've had parents recommend me to their friends before they even saw the images because I dealt with their hyperactive kid so well haha... They said other photogs got grumpy at her or just gave up because they couldn't redirect her energy. I guess having been a teacher set me up with the right mindset. Thank you for the tip about the dance schools, you're right that they would be the best way to attract more parents - I tried the other way around but your way is smarter. See you next time, uncle Dan!
Excellent advice. Could you please make a video explaining how to negotiate cost of a commercial photo shoot? I recently had a new client tell me how much they are willing to pay for my services vs me letting them know my rates. Suggests please and thank you
I discuss that a bit here : Day Rates? How Commercial Photographers Charge ruclips.net/video/DLgczvQbAYQ/видео.html. But might be worth going into more detail for sure
Hi Daniel, thanks for the great advice and detailed examples. I just wanted to go deeper and follow up on what you say at 9:30, where you're talking about selling prints in exchange for covering an event like a school recital. What would you recommend as pricing for something like that, either on a cost per print basis, or if you're selling digital files to parents or the school? I'm sure it depends on the institution you're shooting for; perhaps a swanky Upper East Side private school might be 20 times the actual cost of printing so maybe $45 for an 8x10, or digital usage rights might be $40 per photo for parents-while a middle or lower income school in a more rural area might be more like 10 times the printing so $20 per 8x10 or per social media use? Should one use different rates for school social media vs. individual parents since the school will probably only use one or two? I'd appreciate your or anyone else's thoughts on this, as I haven't had much experience selling prints-it's always been digital deliverables for me, included as in the pricing of a package deal rather than per image. I could imagine that if you're selling in high volume, the markups I'm suggesting might be unnecessary and you might halve those rates, but without knowing how things like this sell, I wouldn't know. Thanks!
This video is very timely for me. I am in a position where I have to visit clients who don't know I have not been shooting their Builder Spec Homes. The people who have replaced me aren't particularly good and builders are calling my boss angry, wondering why I have been doing such poor work. Right now I am visiting these properties letting them know I didn't shoot their houses but if they would like, they can hire my company directly and they can have my work instead. This is a political mine field because sales agents are noticing the difference and are starting to scream. I know how to be diplomatic but playing fireman is not much fun.
You are so right but what if the client is so unorganized and unprofessional that it affects your work and your mood during the job and how do you still create a good experience for them.
true. one day I called to a local magazine and said that they got shitty covers and I can do better. they were furious and, of course, it didn't work. they continued to make shitty covers, and eventually the magazine closed :) it's a pity when an editor has no taste for photography
I have a different problem. I live in a Midwest small college town. Somehow, I got the reputation of being a FAMOUS photographer. I DID NOT START THIS RUMOR!!!! As a consequence, folks are afraid to ask me to shoot anything--OR--they want me to shoot FREE. It's either/or. Both ends with no local jobs.
In my experience the real trick is to show them what they are currently using sucks, without coming out and saying it. Telling people "those photos suck, I can do way better" is a sure path to them getting defensive. In your example of the lawyer/law firm advertising on a bus stop, they spent good money. Those ads aint cheap, particularly to a small firm, and no one wants to think they spent their money foolishly. Whenever I see an ad for a lawyer/realtor/etc with less than stellar images I make a note of their name/website/phone number, look them up when I get home and send them one of my 'special' mailers. Unlike my generic mailers, these are designed to make the targeted recipient question the images they currently use without specifically mentioning it. They're loaded with "Is it time to update your headshot?" or "Does your brand need a makeover?" kind of questions with before and after images(I've actually paid people to look like crap for the 'before' shots). I actually have a better response rate from those mailers than any of my other marketing because it is laser targeted at people who really do need better images and most actually come to that realization after seeing better work.
A negative approach usually means the person is insecure, the person being ragged on is a threat to them, which means he or she is a better photographer than the ragger is saying.
Hi Daniel, I like the way you approach "things" - how you - like in this video - approach (potential) customers. I do it kind of the same way (try to be positive - and in that successful most of the time... ;-) ) I also like the "calm" way how you explain "things" (technique, creating services, etc) - and most of the time when I watch your videos I think "I know everything what he is talking about - but it is great to actually HEAR it from someone else". That "underlines" my way of approaching things - and gives me a very positive "vibe". Thank you for your videos, also the Adorama sessions which I watch from time to time, just to "reassure" that what I am doing is right FOR ME. Best regards from Germany, Martin (www.martindiehl.de)
Even if they didn't take the picture themselves or even hire the person who took it, at some level, that picture that you're saying sucks represents them and/or their company. And nobody likes to be attacked. Even if _they_ don't like the picture, coming in and blasting it is an insult at some level. That's a bad place to start any relationship from.
Good point, just because they are using a certain photo they may not like it that much and may even know it’s not great. It’s all about the approach for sure
If someone told an art/photo editor the photos they used sucked, they can be sure those editor/directors will not hire them. Why leave a bad taste in someone's "mouth" to get jobs that are hard to get?
A negative salesman doesn't know anything about selling. If you were an IBM salesman in the 70s, 80s,and you were selling IBM's finest business computers, you would have found people within your prospective client organisations who were fans of Amdahl, or National Semiconductor or Itel, who all sold computers compatible with IBN's, or even worse, one of the BUNCH. You would have been trained to say, "{Burroughs, Univac, NCR etc} make fine computers, but we have some too. And here are some advantages.... There is no point in arguing with the customer. If I think you are being rude to me, you have had your last chance and you will be shown the door and invited to never return, If you have a boss, your boss will get the message too.
yup, figured out the menu system on my camera, now, I have to work on my people skills 😁
cheers 👍👍
Ha ha
I think you get fantastic results with people, especially the models, with your gentle good natured approach.
Thanks
Great advise, at the end of the day it’s a business, and by knocking their existing work you are knocking their judgement, will not end well for you.
Exactly
Yeah good point multiple are always trying to improve I mean I am so I’m always watching these videos because I’m trying to improve myself and do better in most things and most of the time 🎉
Couldn't agree more, Daniel. Being intentionally negative is just asking for rejection. It's true that some people have gotten away with it, perhaps because of their "fame" or whatever, but for most of us, it would be the wrong approach. Thanks for the always-good ideas.
Thanks Mike!
I like that you are promoting a positive vibe. I remember the 90s and it wasn't like that. It was frustrating to be around a lot of negative people in the industry. I worked alot around magazines and art galleries back then. I hope the industry has changed.
There will always be negative people, the trick is to try to be around the ones that are positive. And be positive yourself in my opinion
Great topic Mr. Daniel Norton! I have to say 2 things have taken place. One compared to the old days of Film Point & Shoot cameras todays cellphones take pretty decent images. And two unfortunately the concept of DIY has taken over many things. I do agree that is better to approach potential clients in a positive manner and sometimes you even throw in a freebie to get them to see quality. Keep making great videos and thanks for loving what you do and share in your channel!
Thanks- I don’t think it’s just that the cameras are better, which they clearly are, it’s the fact that you can see the images right away that I think makes your average snapshot better than it was back in the film point and shoot days
im a little bit addicted to his wisdom. light set ups, real life photography stories and his calmness. Thank you for sharing and have a great week.
Thank You for watching
" Old Sayings " really do have meaning, if we think about it, we will see that they are true and have meaning. After your video, which I really liked, the saying " Catch more flies with sugar " came to mind.
Indeed
Really appreciate what you’re sharing! Thanks a lot!
Awesome, thanks for watching!
Yes, exactly what you said. This is business, this is not being an artist and trying to say your art is better. Telling a potential client that their current photos "suck and are not good", translates into the following: "you, the boss make bad decisions and you do not know what you are doing" - this means you just insulted the intelligence of the boss... I approached a company wanting to help, the boss was kind enough to educate me, saying it doesnt matter, he doesnt even need photos, and askes, will my photos increase sales? From that point, I approach from the angle of, "how can I help increase sales". A note to those who armchair complain (me too one time) all the photographers that we complain about, they got the job, we didnt. Its about how to provide an image that helps their business, not one that is technically better. ---- Your school event example is spot on!! kudos. -- this is how I worked my way up to head photographer for los angeles fashion week. I would shoot the runway for free, give a few sample retouched photos to the designers, and most important, I talked with the designers and I asked what their needs were, not here is me being an artist and you get what I give you.... That attitude of what does the client need, shot me up from sideline runway to head/house just a couple seasons. -- sorry for long rant
Good points and examples
Great points to help people, as always. BTW I love your t-shirt! LOL.
Thanks!
great wisdom.. thank you.. & agree on the positive approach
Thanks
I appreciate this so much! Our core business principle is to BE NICE. Thank you for spreading this word!!
Cool!
Thanks Dan! Keep on
Thank You!
Thank you for your advice. I like the positive approach. I think being positive, being respectful and being humble is a good thing. That's how I got my gig at the animal shelter. I don't get paid for that but I love doing it and I think in the long run it will eventually help me get paying clients who want portraits of their pets. Don't get me wrong. I'm not doing the shelter work just to get paying clients. I love it when an adoptable pet gets his/her forever home. That makes it all worthwhile for me.
That’s awesome!
Great video, thank you! People buy people, so as you say, if your images are of a good enough standard, and they like YOU, you’ll get the work over an amazing photographer with a not-so-great personality!
For sure
Great video, I've made that mistake before! It's very tempting to tell the client how bad their current photos are. Seems like some people just don't appreciate what good photography can do for them and their business.
Funniest response I got was "Yeah we deliberately didn't want good photos because we don't want too many enquiries"!!!
Ha ha, wow. I wonder if they were serious or just snapping back to what was perceived as an insult.
Thanks for this perspective...sometimes seeing someone's work that is below and about average is already frustrating to "stand out"
I can understand that
Very wise, clever and juicy advises 👌.
Thanks
Great tips Daniel! More business/marketing tips and tricks please for us commercial photographers starting out :-)
Thanks
Thanks, Daniel - you're the coolest uncle I never had! 😄
Totally agree about the positivity side of things - I've had parents recommend me to their friends before they even saw the images because I dealt with their hyperactive kid so well haha... They said other photogs got grumpy at her or just gave up because they couldn't redirect her energy. I guess having been a teacher set me up with the right mindset.
Thank you for the tip about the dance schools, you're right that they would be the best way to attract more parents - I tried the other way around but your way is smarter. See you next time, uncle Dan!
Great! If only my Nieces and nephew felt the same lol
Excellent advice. Could you please make a video explaining how to negotiate cost of a commercial photo shoot? I recently had a new client tell me how much they are willing to pay for my services vs me letting them know my rates. Suggests please and thank you
I discuss that a bit here : Day Rates? How Commercial Photographers Charge ruclips.net/video/DLgczvQbAYQ/видео.html. But might be worth going into more detail for sure
Great info, Daniel!
Thanks!
Excellent points Daniel.totally agree, and I did get the deep reference on Kodachrome on the last adorama clip. Lol
As long as someone gets it, I’m happy 😂
Hi Daniel, thanks for the great advice and detailed examples. I just wanted to go deeper and follow up on what you say at 9:30, where you're talking about selling prints in exchange for covering an event like a school recital. What would you recommend as pricing for something like that, either on a cost per print basis, or if you're selling digital files to parents or the school? I'm sure it depends on the institution you're shooting for; perhaps a swanky Upper East Side private school might be 20 times the actual cost of printing so maybe $45 for an 8x10, or digital usage rights might be $40 per photo for parents-while a middle or lower income school in a more rural area might be more like 10 times the printing so $20 per 8x10 or per social media use? Should one use different rates for school social media vs. individual parents since the school will probably only use one or two? I'd appreciate your or anyone else's thoughts on this, as I haven't had much experience selling prints-it's always been digital deliverables for me, included as in the pricing of a package deal rather than per image. I could imagine that if you're selling in high volume, the markups I'm suggesting might be unnecessary and you might halve those rates, but without knowing how things like this sell, I wouldn't know. Thanks!
You have to look at what your market will support - basically what you said
Good advice Daniel
Thank You!
LOL what a great t-shirt and good advice
Thank You!
your channel is by far the best one, thank you
Thanks!
I know the ROI of these videos are not very good, but thank you and I have watched pretty much all of them :D
Thanks
Love the shirt man. Great topic too.
Thank You!
This is an awesome way to look at it! Thank you for the tips!
Thanks
Thank you for the information. I would do the positive idea. Might be harder to do. Then you could be the one they call back.
Yes!
Great message. I need to work on being positive.
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
This video is very timely for me. I am in a position where I have to visit clients who don't know I have not been shooting their Builder Spec Homes. The people who have replaced me aren't particularly good and builders are calling my boss angry, wondering why I have been doing such poor work. Right now I am visiting these properties letting them know I didn't shoot their houses but if they would like, they can hire my company directly and they can have my work instead. This is a political mine field because sales agents are noticing the difference and are starting to scream. I know how to be diplomatic but playing fireman is not much fun.
That is a tough place to be in, but good to see the clients notice your work as superior
You are so right but what if the client is so unorganized and unprofessional that it affects your work and your mood during the job and how do you still create a good experience for them.
I always just try to be positive, it does seem to rub off on them after a bit.
LOVE this advice!
Thank You!
my god that shirt! keep on rocking sir!!
Thank You!
The advice is good but the shirt is even better lol
P.S. I wear your puppet shirt when I go to shoot at the shelter. I wear Seth's too. They are my favs.
Thanks! I appreciate the support
First! Sorry Daniel, but I've never been first : ). Had to take it. Great video and very necessary topic. Thanks!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Once again good common sense advice!
Thank You!
Are you using a new video camera? New lens? Cleaned your old lens? This seems exceptionally clear.
Ha ha, I think it was just brighter out this time around so the image is clearer (lower ISO basically)
as momma always said - if you ain't got nothing nice to say, better not say nothing at all
For sure
true. one day I called to a local magazine and said that they got shitty covers and I can do better. they were furious and, of course, it didn't work. they continued to make shitty covers, and eventually the magazine closed :) it's a pity when an editor has no taste for photography
Yeah. It’s tempting to take that approach but in the end perhaps not the best
I have a different problem. I live in a Midwest small college town. Somehow, I got the reputation of being a FAMOUS photographer. I DID NOT START THIS RUMOR!!!! As a consequence, folks are afraid to ask me to shoot anything--OR--they want me to shoot FREE. It's either/or. Both ends with no local jobs.
🤔
In my experience the real trick is to show them what they are currently using sucks, without coming out and saying it. Telling people "those photos suck, I can do way better" is a sure path to them getting defensive. In your example of the lawyer/law firm advertising on a bus stop, they spent good money. Those ads aint cheap, particularly to a small firm, and no one wants to think they spent their money foolishly.
Whenever I see an ad for a lawyer/realtor/etc with less than stellar images I make a note of their name/website/phone number, look them up when I get home and send them one of my 'special' mailers. Unlike my generic mailers, these are designed to make the targeted recipient question the images they currently use without specifically mentioning it. They're loaded with "Is it time to update your headshot?" or "Does your brand need a makeover?" kind of questions with before and after images(I've actually paid people to look like crap for the 'before' shots).
I actually have a better response rate from those mailers than any of my other marketing because it is laser targeted at people who really do need better images and most actually come to that realization after seeing better work.
Good point on the targeting!
A negative approach usually means the person is insecure, the person being ragged on is a threat to them, which means he or she is a better photographer than the ragger is saying.
Indeed
Hi Daniel, I like the way you approach "things" - how you - like in this video - approach (potential) customers. I do it kind of the same way (try to be positive - and in that successful most of the time... ;-) )
I also like the "calm" way how you explain "things" (technique, creating services, etc) - and most of the time when I watch your videos I think "I know everything what he is talking about - but it is great to actually HEAR it from someone else". That "underlines" my way of approaching things - and gives me a very positive "vibe". Thank you for your videos, also the Adorama sessions which I watch from time to time, just to "reassure" that what I am doing is right FOR ME.
Best regards from Germany, Martin (www.martindiehl.de)
Excellent! Thanks for watching
Even if they didn't take the picture themselves or even hire the person who took it, at some level, that picture that you're saying sucks represents them and/or their company. And nobody likes to be attacked. Even if _they_ don't like the picture, coming in and blasting it is an insult at some level. That's a bad place to start any relationship from.
Good point, just because they are using a certain photo they may not like it that much and may even know it’s not great. It’s all about the approach for sure
I wouldn't put down another photographers work, rule #1. I would approach the "client" and show them my work
Exactly
If someone told an art/photo editor the photos they used sucked, they can be sure those editor/directors will not hire them. Why leave a bad taste in someone's "mouth" to get jobs that are hard to get?
Yup
A negative salesman doesn't know anything about selling.
If you were an IBM salesman in the 70s, 80s,and you were selling IBM's finest business computers, you would have found people within your prospective client organisations who were fans of Amdahl, or National Semiconductor or Itel, who all sold computers compatible with IBN's, or even worse, one of the BUNCH. You would have been trained to say, "{Burroughs, Univac, NCR etc} make fine computers, but we have some too. And here are some advantages....
There is no point in arguing with the customer. If I think you are being rude to me, you have had your last chance and you will be shown the door and invited to never return, If you have a boss, your boss will get the message too.
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻