Samurai Katana TOTALLY DOMINATED by European Rapier & Dagger?
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
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Does the European Renaissance rapier and dagger combination totally dominate the Japanese katana?
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Easier to train many with a rapier quicker. Only a select few were allowed Katanas. I would imagine the japanese would adapt to weapons and start making shields. They would sacrifice themselves just for one kill to retrieve your weapon to study. First encounters would go to rapier.
but what if one of them were a southpaw 😋
Would not Daishou vs Rapier & dagger be a fairer equivalent of comparison Matt?
A daitou & shoutou paired forming daishou meaning long & short pairs usually a tantou zx the daishou under a shaku/Japanese foot with a daishou usually a uchigatana of 2 shaku to 3 shaku.
Mind an dress sword of 47inch much less an English rapier of 51inches paired with a parrying dagger is at a great advantage for a minimum of a foot=12 inches cannot be ignored.
European parrying daggers lay shame to a tantou.
Japanese blades/nihontou are certainly aesthetic but they are outclassed by the practicality & metallurgical ingenuity of European blades!
I focused more on English staff & pole arms personally though familiar with swordsmanship it is not my forte!
I'd rather an Indian Talwar over an uchigatana the lament calls katana which refers to any single edged blade including Chinese Dho & sabres as they are all eventfully the same thing bar geometric & differences concerning mass.
I will State I much prefer a buckler, targe or any shield to a parrying dagger but give me a pistol or revolver over a shield any day in my off hand.
Why duel when you can use a gun?
Melee weapons from polearms, bayonets, swords etcetera are the last means of offensive for defence in my mind as ranged weaponry you can offend without directly engaging.
I'd prefer a hatchet to a dagger just to chuck at the fella before closing to make point as people make mistakes when something sharp & or hard is thrown at them.
If you want to fight a duel use the Rapier and Dagger, if you want a war weapon use a Katana or an Arming Sword. A Rapier is not meant for fighting armor and its flexible blade makes for a poor piercer of armor.
Fun fact, there exist a japanese left hand weapon called Karakuri jitte, basically a mix between a spear and a truncheon, effectively a short folding main gauche, that Musashi's father allegedly developped.
Japan also had shields, their existence however does not denote commonality.
the karakuri jitte was incredibly rare, as is period descriptions/discussions of it.
The traditional jitte is much more commonly attested in period documents, and serves a similar purpose.
@@harjutapa very true
Wasn' t jitte a pure Police weapon?
@@harjutapait probably was not rare as there are many varieties when it comes to this weapon, but more of a secret weapon not taught outside of school to The wider public, true for a number of other weapons or techniques regarding traditional Japanese martial arts schools.
I very much appreciate the inclussion of Viggo Mortensen's Alatriste in the thumbnail 👏🏻
Such a hidden gem. The books even more so
@@addictedtochocolate920 The main problem of that movie is that they didn't do a movie per book. There is a TV series but it is greedily bad.
Cannot see that movie enough. The books by Pérez-Reverte are all quite good, too.
Loved the film.
When they came for him and he told her "nobody can take me away from you" such great scene.
I absolutly love how this sword vs sword discussion on youtube has changed in the passed 10 to 15 years...
back in the days computer neerds with limited gaming experience tryed to discuss what has a advantage and what is better... slowly educated experienced guys showed up showing the weapons and effects and did endless mysth busting about completely wrong information...and over the years this has changed completely into a very adult global discussion with real experts from all around the world taking part, testing and trying and giving their point of view. Thats so refreshing and I am absolutly thankfullto have the opertunity to follow this
Gotta love keyboard warriors. I'm sure I've been sullied in this way and have some ideas, or at least had some wrong ideas and impressions from games and bad information. This guy and his brethren (except shativeristy) are much appreciated indeed.
I think the Easton family need to pack up some practice swords and vacation in Japan. Can you take that off your taxes in the UK as a business expense? :) I would love to see a video of Shogo showing you guys the sights and food followed by some sparing and discussion with Seki Sensi.
Their master uses a Longshore video was awesome. I agree. Let's end the debating and get some skilled warriors pitted against eachother!!!
Matt: "Wakazashi massivley helps redress the imbalance..."
Musahi: "Step into the kill as you step into your house"
Destreza: "Step in you say, fascinating..."
Ah yes, Diestros, the swordsmen that could prove you wrong mathematically, scientifically, phylosophically and empirically one after the other.
spaniards use that as maths
He brings up the very strongest 'points.' And I'm not kidding. When it comes to dueling without armor, he brings up the most horrific aspects of dueling with swords, which are related to angles and circling. I think the arms of the samurai armor, which are unrivetted maille, can be very illuminating here.
As a Kenjutsu nerd, i think If the Individuals are of equal skill and the duel properly starts in an environment which wouldn't limit the rapiers usage, It would have a significant advantage. If you add a dagger to the mix, tight spaces and close quarters which limit the rapiers effectiveness would be no problem either. The katana would need a Wakizashi to balance the field in this instance, and we're back to the same results as just Rapier vs katana due to reach difference.
That is to say, I'm not going up against these death needles unless you give me a Nodachi/O-katana
I wonder how armor would affect the result. It would probably come down to a tantō vs dagger argument at the end of the day, i think.
The thing about bringing armour in, is it works for both sides. It brings the same problems (or very similar ones) for both, and both Europeans and Japanese were wearing some degree of armour at this time.
@@scholagladiatoriai believe it would end up with grappling, halfswording, and probably the smaller blades doing someone in at the end, not the rapier or the katana. If we're talking Knight vs Samurai, the Samurai has more weak spots, but the scenarios in which these two would clash normally don't involve heavy armor (to my limited knowledge on naval battles and skirmishes).
At the end of the day I am, also, giving the overall win to Europe, unless some Kenjutsu expert comes around with some very good arguments. As much as i love Kenjutsu, I'm not delusional.
@@addictedtochocolate920 It really depends on the style of armor, the types of blade and many other factors. Japanese armors varies much more than European one on the regional level especially if you compare the eastern vs the western regions during the sengoku period.
I saw some experience kenjutsu practitioner absolutely demolish an equally trained rapier one, the video is on you tube, so I am really not sold at all on the advantage. If you put armor into context is even more messy, especially considering all the variables.
@@lucanic4328i have oftentimes seen the opposite. In those cases i believe it comes down to experience and skill, as well as having experience on how to deal with this specific opponent. Someone who has experience fighting opponents who hold the reach advantage may do so with extreme effectiveness compared to people who are familiar with fair circumstances. Reach is, nonetheless, and no matter the culture or martial art, a massive advantage if the environment allows for it; it cannot be questioned, and it is the reason why polearms dominate swords, and in turn firearms/bows dominate melee weapons.
Maybe the weapon you saw go up against the rapier was an O-katana? In which case the greater control and leverage a two handed sword offers against a single handed one of equal length is definitely a substantial factor. Not defining, but substantial.
@@addictedtochocolate920 It was a very regular katana. In the video they follow up with a commentary available with english subtitles in which they address the range issue and bring a point that I have not seen addressed in any of Matt's video, which is the ease that a Katana can displace the rapier blade away
ruclips.net/video/_gndIJnmS5o/видео.htmlfeature=shared
I used to combo a Colichemarde with a Main Gauche and it always surprised others when, as he states, I would simply block with the sword and step around to the left stab them in the side with my dagger. I was blocking, sidestepping their attack, and attacking simultaneously and to great effect. Minimal movement for maximum effect. In many cases with a charging attacker I didn't even need to step forward so much as lean to the left and turn as their own momentum brought them into dagger range.
I'll do that almost instinctively whenever an opponent tries to suppress my rapier with both of their weapons for too long.
It works pretty well, unless against a left hander, because you'll wind up stepping past their rapier point and away from their dagger side.
I fought a lot of single point v sword and dagger. I got pretty good at it! I do mostly longsword now, so that stuff is rusty to me, but I remember I had to learn to attack differently, and have quick repost. And also, using my off hand. But I died a lot.
Coming from a Japanese martial arts perspective, I think you're largely right that katana and wakizashi weren't commonly used together. There are a number of kenjutsu schools that teach how to use them together, even aside from Musashi's niten ichi ryu, e.g. katori shinto ryu and tendo ryu also teach two-sword techniques. But Musashi is really unique in that he viewed this as the preferred option, while other schools taught you how to do it but more as low-frequency option. Also, the vast majority of kenjutsu ryuha include no two-sword techniques at all.
It's actually a subcategory for many schools more popular in the past than it is now since most are incomplete, musashi was not unique in that he preferred it he just opened a school that was more specifically on it, in fact in his opinion it was better off use in a multiple opponents situation which others did not agree.
@@eagle162 It was still pretty rare proportionately and comparatively. Rapier and dagger was just kind of how you fought a lot of the time, to the point that numerous specialized parrying daggers meant entirely to be used in tandem with a rapier were developed. Katana and wakizashi was never like that. It was a tactic that existed, not THE tactic. A katana is, first and foremost, a two-handed weapon.
@@KaleRylanas far as I know solo rapier was the more common method, and also it was a popular subcategory no point in carrying two swords if you're not going to learn how use them specially if you're going up against somebody who favors it, there were different weapons used in combination with katana as well, katana is actually more of a bastard sword in fact one-handed version was popular with foot soldiers name katate uchi.
@eagle162
@@eagle162 Another thing that did make Miyamoto Musashi unique was throwing his swords. In fact, he did it to kill an opponent wielding a kusarigama.
We do a lot of smallswords at our club and one of our instructors pointed out that the smallsword might be a good foil (no pun intended) to the katana in a sense that it was a civil weapon used by the gentry to settle disputes and so I was wondering if there were any sources that mention and compare these two weapons
George Silver published a book called "Paradoxes of Defence" in something like 1600. It was about the smallsword and it's advantages vs. the rapier, despite its short stature. I think he also mentioned that the quarterstaff was a great compliment to the smallsword, as a leading weapon. I don't think he mentioned anything about Japan, but I did find the book among books about Japanese Budo, and other period works.
Matt: I truly appreciate you putting things in their appropriate context! Thank you for teaching by example, that we can explore and discuss history and martial arts with nuance.
The only thing I could think of was I hope Sensei Seki does an answering video. Good video, thanks Matt.
Akademia Szermierzy recently posted a video that shows Antoni Olbrychski using hussar sabre against rapier & dagger. Olbrychski beat Marta Sokół 5 to 2 & went 4 to 5 against Aleksander Dynarek. Olbrychski & Dynarek are both very high-level fencers. It's interesting that hussar sabre did so relatively well. It is notable that either it was an extremely long sabre or a short rapier, because the video lists only 10cm of difference between weapons. So it's not analogous to katana vs rapier & dagger, but it does suggest that skill & stats matter more than the weapon. &, as folks mentioned previously, there's that 김상윤 video "Rapier VS Katana Expert Sparring" that surprisingly shows the rapier at a disadvantage.
It's not such a surprising result that the sabre did so well, when you realize that sabres eventually ousted rapiers in day to day battlefield use.
Yeah that was a great vid. So many people would say rapier/dag would DOM n ATE. Well...not so many people, maybe, but I would have said rapier/dag have a big advantage. Nope. Ability and skill are still much more important.
@@Washeek battlefields and duels are two entirely different kettles of fish though, rapiers or other poke poke swords in various iterations lasted a very long time in civillian use and for duels
I don't see rapier being in any kind of disadvantage against katana especially if you add a dagger to the rapier. in case you saw most likely guy with a katana was simply more skilled or he was more used to fight against opponent in opposite stands than the one with the rapier (which makes sense to me because fencers generally fence with other fencers with both of them having rapiers. those with katana on the other hand fight against larger verity of weapons and often times find themselves facing opponent in opposite stands) with the rapier if you are right handed you stand with right foot forward with katana if you are right handed you stand with your left foot forward. when guy with a rapier has his lead foot on the outside of the opponent's lead foot he has an advantage. he has a better angle its easier for him to deliver hits and he can use hiss dagger effectively to block the katana. with the katana's hits not being as fast as they normally would be because attack would require to turn the katana. if the guy with the katana on the other hand is on the outside. he has a better angle and his opponent can't use the dagger as effectively because his dagger is on the other side. so the battle of the foot becomes quite important and the guy with katana probably faced more opponents in opposite stands than the one with the rapier.
as far as hussar saber I'm not surprised it did quite well. in a duel rapier with a dagger still has little bit of an advantage but not much and a skilled fighter with a hussar saber will win against less skilled fighter with a rapier. guy with the katana also can win against guy with a rapier its just not easy in both cases. and if you compare Hussar saber to a katana for example they are more less equally matched. and both are better in a battle than the rapier (although in my opinion rapier is by no means useless in a battle with many soldiers). as far as of the horseback hussar saber is actually best of all three.
Interestingly, Antoni Olbrychski is the grandson of the famous actor Daniel Olbrychski, familiar to many youtube viewers from the famous saber duel scene from the classic film “The Deluge”.
Thanks a lot. Like very much, that you try shed light on different aspects.
Fascinating! Thank you, Matt! ♥
Few things:
-Musashi wasn't really special. Well, he was special but not because he was dual wielding. He only made it popular
-Samurai ALWAYS had two "weapons", even if they didn't have wakizashi with them for some reason, they still would have saya (scabbard) and was trained to use it alongside their blade.
Not sure if it change anything, but it should be noted at least.
Yes, by law (Edo Period), they had to carry both weapons by their station AND had to have witnesses.
In nambokucho and earlier, it was generally Tachi (longer - 30-36+" edge) and a bit closer to saber; more focused on horseback or armored combat) paired with Tanto or Aikuchi (armor-piercer). After the end of nambokucho (~1385-1600 i.e. Oei and Muromachi/Monoyama) katana became more prevalent (and one-hand uchigatana); lots of tachi were shortened - typical size was 26-27". Warfare became much more ground based as opposed to horseback, which changes the equation. Wakizashi become more common, though not as much in warfare as in day-to-day, which gives an alternative that's more effective in constrained indoor locations.
Naginata and bow were primarily a focus of battlefield warfare in Nambokucho and earlier; spears and bows took precedence in Oei/Muromachi (with swords as a backup), towards the end of Muromachi and Monoyama Tanegashima (matchlocks) became a huge battlefield weapon, along with spears. On the battlefield, katana/tachi were secondary for most. Cavalry might use them more, perhaps.
In Edo, everything changes. Combat is much more likely to be unarmored, one on one or a few. Blades get thinner and sharper (but more prone to chipping or breaking compared to Koto blades (as a generalization)). Flamboyant hamon become more common. Two swords are required. Women samurai practice with naginata. Blades get fancier. Merchants can only own a short sword, but wanted fancy ones by important smiths. Commoners were largely stopped from owning swords by Hideyoshi's "sword hunt" in the late 1500's.
I would very much like to see a sparing match between yourself and seki sensei, then another where you swap weapons.
this would definitely show the relative merits of each weapon, based on my watchçing his first experience of using the longsword.
I think it would also make a fantastic debrief document as to the conclusions given by both of you.
As cool as that would be, they live in England and Japan, respecitvely, and afaik neither is fluent in the other's language, either. That would be a very large project to set up.
Their battle would be legendary, but i think a more realistic possibility is them reacting to each other content, which has happened. I do hope to someday see them have a little chat through a translator
The problem is kenjutsu people generally do not spar at all, certainly not at full contact like HEMA people do. With that in mind I have very little faith in Seki Sensei putting up any fight in a pressured scenario against Matt, who has fought plenty with many weapons in both blossfechten and harnsichfecten. If anything, it would probably be down to Matt to hold back just enough to not make it look as lopsided.
I say this as a HEMA practitioner who has nothing against kenjutsu or its practitioners, but who has been exposed to it and the tendency of its practitioners to stick to theory rather than practice.
@@perrytran9504also a big age difference
My understanding is that the carry of wakizashi as a secondary/tertiary sidearm as relatively standard practice mostly occured post-Musashi in the Tokugawa Era... famous as a period predominantly characterized by low martial activity and heightened economic and artistic activity, wherein samurai were predominantly businessmen and landlords.
Rapiers are generally a lot less useful in confined spaces, grapples, and are much slower to draw (which may be important in self-defense) than katana, and their reduced cutting capacity _can_ be a relative disadvantage against multiple opponents. Rapiers also have immense difficulty where armor beyond thick clothing is involved. It is unsurprising that a weapon heavily specialized for predominantly unarmored, often civilian, one-on-one conflicts (and to a large degree, formal and arranged duels), is advantageous for that purpose at the expense of its performance in other contexts.
The rapier is indeed a terrible tool for multiple opponents
But for enclosed spaces? Not at all if we are talking about corridors, rapiers are excelent in corridors
@@felipercalvo In corridors, yes, they are actually quite good due to the space being strictly linear and thus both predictable and the rapier scarcely needing macro-redirections. Most confined spaces are not strictly linear, such as halls or corridors, but in small rooms with a bunch of furniture, ceilings and walls often impeding its ability to move. Linear confined spaces are largely liminal spaces-by definition, places people spend small amounts of time in, and largely in urban environments. Most of the population during the period either of these were used lived in rural areas.
@@nevisysbryd7450 a rapier is not a tipical rural weapon, it is pretty much a court one, and more than that, a dueling weapon.
A closed room is bad for any long weapon, not specifically for the rapier, and i don't see how furniture is more of a problem to the rapier than it is to any other sword
Against, say, desperate peasant mob with bamboo spears, katana is, actually, bad. But rapier in this case is even worse, dagger or no.
Don't underestimate a quick thrust from a rapier no matter its weight or length, sure a lot of historical finds weren't made for effectively cutting through anything more than clothing, but it's shockingly easy to put a proper rapier point through most things
We need to get out of the idea that rapiers were just gentrified dress swords or primarily duelling weapons, they were used in war and having learnt to use one I can say they would be very effective even against opponents in armour
Good to see another video about dual wielding! It makes me curious about the difference between a dagger and a wakizashi as off hand weapons. It seems wakizashi tends to be longer and more cut oriented and dagger is better for very close combat.
Wakizashi and Katana also just wasn't a common style of fighting particularly. Katana are two-handed swords and are meant to be fought with as such. So the question isn't simply how effective the off-hand weapon is, but also how effective the main-hand weapon is at being a main-hand weapon used with an offhand weapon.
@@KaleRylan Katanas were ALWAYS meant to be used in both ways. Two handed was obviously predominant, but dual wielding was thing basically from very beginning. In matter of fact whenever you see someone with katana you should assume they might use two weapons or you might be unpleasantly surprised when they bash you in head with their sheath (which might be even more common off hand weapon for japanese swordsman than wakizashi).
Well, just because all above doesn't mean katana is as easy to be wielded in one hand as in both, but making sweeping argument that it is mean to be used only one way is inaccurate.
@@KaleRylan Sigh...
You cannot even distinguish between weapon being made to accommodate two hands and being often used that way and being straight down two handed. You should study cold weapons more.
@@TheTenzen12 hmm... did someone say it couldn't be used one handed? I didn't see that. Did you? Maybe I missed a comment somewhere.
@@KaleRylan Difference is that Katana is DESIGNED to be used both ways. It's not whether it can be used one handed, but if it were meant to be used that way.
Katana is certainly more wieldy both handed, I don't deny that, but still since it's conception it was made to accommodate both ways, thus calling it two handed is as basically same as calling "bastard" sword one handed. Neither is accurate.
I hadn't realized you used a shot from Alatriste for the thumbnail! It got me so excited because i love that movie (being a Spanish speaker and quite a big fan of the Spanish tercios). Has anyone here watched it? If not, i greatly recommend it. I just don't know if there's an english translation for it.
It is on my to-watch list, at least.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Hope you enjoy it. Good Spanish/Latin American movies rarely get the spotlight outside of their countries
One of my all-time favourite films. And yes the DVD with English subs is widely available. The director did an incredible job capturing the aesthetic of Velazquez' paintings. There are so many beautiful frames throughout the movie with the chiaroscuro lighting. Oh and the sword fights are great!
Matt, could you make a piece comparing the possibilities of a fight between katana: szablya / shamshir/hanger (or even kilidj)?
I would love to see a video speculating on the atgeir. I've been wanting to make one but there is no concrete description of them
Your channel deserves more views & subscribers! Always love the content! I really hope you have some more collabs with IGN about games & movies coming up!
Would love to see Matt expand the discussion to include smaller more generic side arms; tanto and tessen, and misericorde and the Rondel dagger.
There are some Japanese two handed sword fighting disciplines, such as Niten Ichi-ryū. It would be fun to see equally competent practitioners of that and rapier/ dagger face off against each other
Due to training practices, I don’t think you would normally find the same skill level.
@@desertpunk6705 true, would not be same, but similar.
@@unclebob540i3 Here is a video of a duel between a rapier and a dagger against a saber, and the matter is a bit more complicated...ruclips.net/video/vhB-HQK28GY/видео.html&lc=Ugy6iGyM1n0cLy61w7l4AaABAg.9yGndAD5mTR9yMLGMRLoqR
The meta is usually dual stick beats single stick, shield beats dual stick, and big stick beats shield. And that's usually because of mechanical brutalized advantage.
There's also an Okinawan weapon called the sai that resembles your dagger. They'd typically fight with on in each hand and have a third available for throwing.
In my kendo experience fighting Nito (using Katana and schort sword together) doesn't give you an advantage against someone who uses only one shinai.once the other person is inside the reach of your primary sword you simply doesn't have the time to use your short sword in the offense as a secondary weapon before getting hit, it only works as defence. Butt you need much more training using two swords than only one.
Using two weapons makes things much more complicated, at first for the person using them.
I have that feeling with kendo also. But given that the only legal thrust is to the throat-pad (right?), it is difficult to get a legal thrust with the wakizashi. It's much easier to get a legal 'men' with it, which is ironic given I don't think it would do much against a helmet.
@@AndrewMilesMurphy both Kendo and Kenjutsu as we know them today were developments of the peacefull Edo period when helmets were no more around.
Would love to see a rapier vs longsword video similar to this one
they need to do duel Rapier & Dagger vs two- handed Samurai Katana so we get to see how many time they win or lose and after Rapier & Dagger vs Katana & Wakazashi duel would be awesome on youtube.
Does that Zweihänder with the red handle in the back have an axehead for a pommel?
Looking forward to your review of the new “Shogun”
Is that the Spes officer Jacket you are wearing? If yes we got the same jacket, for mine came today :)
Where does one get the coat you are wearing? Or do you have a name for the style of coast to try to find it? It's really cool looking!
Consider katana + scabbard (shirasaya) vs rapier + dagger. Scabbard length much longer than dagger. So the duel could become more complicated.
Those globes are amazing. I was given one about five years ago. The main video didn't suck too bad either. ; ) 🍻
With the Japanese jitte even though it's not the same as a Chinese bar mace and is not as long I would say that much like the Chinese bar mace if something like that is swung hard enough and it's robust enough it's still a weapon that seems like it could still potentially be fairly dangerous even if theres a helmet on somebodies head and even if it doesn't necessarily dent the helmet and also something I noticed about jitte is that when you look at older or antique examples many of them look a bit more robust and a bit more bulky then many of ones you see in martial arts related shops which were more likely made with primarily training in mind as opposed to being made to be a serious weapon.Even the jitte or hachiwari would probably make for a good video subject.
Matt is their evidence of the use of the scabbard being used. As part off the defensive style in war. Or was it discarded at contact with the enemy
Slow blade penetrates the shield. I’m glad you’ve found the mood.
here's how you beat a rapier in general from experience in sparring rapier vs something like a cutlass: grab the blade with your hand and move in to hit them with your own weapon, because no matter if a rapier can cut or not if i get a grip on it you can't cut me with it (i have actually tested it because yes i am THAT stupid to test if i can grab and grip a sharp blade without getting seriously hurt)... but the guy with a rapier and dagger that will be much harder
One thing I don’t see talked about often in this match up is the capability of the rapierist to stab the hands of the katana user, even in rapier on rapier duels it’s a common target so I imagine with even less hand protection it would be an incredibly valuable target
I think one advantage for the katana wielder you forgot to mention, is draw time. Getting the dagger out and then getting the rapier out is not instant, and katana wielders that even cut directly from the scabbard could destroy the rapier and dagger wielder in a surprise attack or ambush. So I guess the Europeans had to watch out for sudden surprise attacks. It would be nice to see some katana vs. rapier and dagger sparring, both starting with weapons out and starting with weapons sheathed.
I actually really want one of those globes lol. That´s a really neat sponsorship - nothing unethical, just a cool knick-knack. I'll check out their stock!
How about a small scimitar in the off hand and a long scimitar paired like the rapier and dagger in a duel?
What about the rapier ("capa y espada ") used with a cape? Remember the "Sai"? Cheers
Weapons aside, styles have a major factor too. I fenced epee for years before I studied kendo. The tools were the same. We both had shinai. But when i began...a retreat thrust, a low lunge thrust scored 9 times out of 10. In fact, the longer I studied, and I got use to kendo...I actually did "worse". There are clear advantages to the types of swords, sure. But techniques and styles can be just as important as the tool used.
Sword in one hand has a tremendous reach advantage, sword in two hands has the advantage in the bind, the left hand dagger really tips the scale, I have done a lot of playing with this pairing with a friend that has a black belt in kendo. Rapier is easier for both of us, the dagger makes it unfair. 😊
Main advantage for two hands is increase movement speed and precision. Maintaining point control is vital for a successful thrust.
@@haldorasgirson9463 true, but you get much more authority in the bind, and you give up reach (or at least potential reach) which is tough going against some experienced with a rapier.
Hey, is that in the back a Zweihänder with a tiny axe as a pommel? Genius!!! 🤣
Hey Matt, if you're familiar with the Dark Souls games, there's a technique you can use in which you can wield a rapier and a medium/heater shield, allowing the user to thrust behind the shield as if it were a shield. How practical would this be, and was this ever used historically? I'm thinking it might have been used conquistadors or something.
I can't remember the spanish name for them, but there were rapier and small shield fighters in the spanish Tercios whose role was to parry and close in on pikemen, I've seen videos of their techniques where they cover their sword hand with the shield as they strike, very similar to the dark souls animation
That is what everybody did if they had shield and sword. It is not some special technique. You want to hold the shield in front of you all times
Seki Sensei just did a test and he found the raiper was harder to block owning to its smaller profile.
I wonder why the Katana and a single Sai were never combined? Sai are basically blunt parrying daggers.
Maybe Katana or Wakizashi and a Jitte!
@@bennyb.1742 Miyamoto Musashi developed a school of kenjutsu that focused on using the katana and wakizashi in tandem. Even today, not many people can utilize it effectively, but it is very effective in the hands of those who can.
@@h0m3st4r Musashi did not invent it, nor claim he invented use of two swords
What if the katana welder also has a wakazashi or tanto? Thats what im really curious about.
Dear Mr. Easton, I am a newcomer to your channel but since you mentioned Miyamoto Musashi I hope that you can bring me to knowledge. I had a copy of The Book of Five Rings once, and there was a picture of him and with a caption stating that is was a position known as, "Open on All Eight Sides." It added that there was no possibly for an attack on Musashi. And I, the ignorant Gai-jin, was thinking, "The man is just STANDING there." Can you elucidate? Many thanks!
I neat comparison to me would be how the katana stacks up to a falchion/hanger or later cutlass. Those weapons would have similar performing blades to the katana but the various types of hand protection they might have would through in interesting mixes.
Katana would rule until the European pulled out a left hand dagger or buckler and wins.
I have a question - in the section about using both rapier and dagger to block a blow from a heavy weapon (e.g. twohander) - does that actually work? I mean .. there is awful lot of momentum in a strike with large and heavy weapon like that.
Feels like something that needs to be tested, cus London longsword pulled a source which recomends not doing that, that is good way to get your rapier broken and adviced a different approach.
There’s ways to deflect the incoming swords energy with the dual blocking, but a static block, while technically possible, is not advised.
Just came after watching rapier n dagger vs saber spar. Not exactly the same since saber isn't katana but nonetheless highly instructive and makes me doubt whether it would be as one sided as Matt makes it out to be. In this case both were highly experienced European hema fighters, in fact the rapier guy was slightly more experienced, yet the spar was very close even though rapier did win. But close enough that i can see saber winning if they sparred again. In any case rapier did not have an easy time. In fact the sabers performance is even more remarkable considering that it was rapier AND dagger vs just saber by its lonesome
I was thinking the same thing, but it's worth noting that the Akademia Szermierzy video lists the sabre as 95cm & the rapier as 105cm. It doesn't say whether it's overall length or blade length, but either it's a very long sabre or a very short rapier.
Rapier versus dagger is not lost cause for dagger, but my educated guess is that you prefer to have rapier, not dagger.
From what I recall Errol Flynn once choreographed a rapier vs katana fight.
TBF, the rapier and dagger is kind of designed to be the ultimate dualist kit, whereas the katana was mostly used as a side arm or in self-defense. Duels with the uchigatana emerged more during the Edo period, and at that point because warfare was relatively rare in comparison to earlier periods, swordsmanship and swordsmithing was more about preserving the peace and traditional practices. It's kind of like asking what would be better in a self defense role, a precision made revolver for handgun hunting or a lightweight polymer pistol with over a dozen rounds. You can learn a lot from using both, but at the end of the day one is better for volume of fire and the other is there for accuracy, you are gonna have a harder time getting the Bullseye on the light automatic, but the target revolver is going to have a worse rate of fire. Both are excellent for their intended purposes.
Love the channel. An idea for an experiment. You often pit one weapon against another. What this misses is the skill of the two opponents. Can you run several rounds and then switch weapons and run several rounds again. Keeping scores with enough rounds should help cancel out the relative skill levels. Makes the assumption a skillful swordsman is also a skilled spearman for example, but I think you will get my point. Pardon the pun. 😊
Maybe you have touched upon this in another video? But how much do you think our idea of the length of a katana is affected by the Japanese of the time being comparatively short?
has modern kenjutsu increased the size of the swords as Japanese people on average have been getting taller and taller?
It's just a thought really, but I always felt like a Nodachi or something would be a more fair comparison, so long as it behaves kind of like a katana for a bigger person?
As a side note about Mysashi (at the risk of missing the forest for one dual-wielding tree), there is some historical evidence to support the conjecture that Musashi may have primarily used his wakisashi by THROWING it, with startling accuracy, owing to the distinct possibility that he may have been *left handed*. I'll have to hunt down my source for this, but I know it's kicking around the library somewhere...
Having some experience with all things mentioned here, I have to agree with Matt
Perhaps next video analysis could be a Rapier & Dagger & crossbow vs Katana who would dominate! 😁
Thanks for the good video
I’m pretty sure there were some schools in Japan that taught using two blades. Whether the second blade was a Wakazashi or Tanto I have no idea. I had heard or read that the idea of fighting with two blades was picked up by the Japanese from watching the Portuguese sparring.
Great video. Not sure if it is because of my limited training, watching Sword RUclips or watching movies, but a rapier and left hand dagger seem like the ultimate dueling weapons because you can defend yourself while also being extremely aggressive. The combination just instantly comes into my mind with the word "duel." That said, I'd be extremely irritated to be all issued such a long, clunky sidearm as a secondary weapon unless I was also issued a horse to carry it around. A katana or a hanger are just way more convenient if you are using a polearm or are in the artillery. As someone who has worked with boats, a rapier would be a huge headache to wear or even use at sea.
Rapier dagger was certainly used & effective, but it's unclear that it really has that big of an advantage other sidearms. Rob Childs did very well with longsword against another high-level fencer using rapier & dagger. &
Akademia Szermierzy recently showed how a high-level sabre fencer went 4 to 5 against a high-level rapier & dagger fencer, & a beat a less experienced, but still very good, rapier & dagger fencer 5 to 2. In both cases, the rapier had only a modest reach advantage. Skill & stats appear to trump weapon when it comes to popular sidearms of roughly similar length.
The thing is, rapiers as commonly conceived weren't really weapons of war, but civilian duelling weapons. They wouldn't really be issued to soldiers in any regular sense.
There's side swords, or rapiers of war, but that's something somewhat different.
Basically, it didn't happen.
@@scottmacgregor3444 The lines between swords & rapiers are quite blurry. Luis Pacheco de Narváez, an iconic writer in the Spanish rapier style La Verdadera Destreza, wrote that knowing how to fight with the sword alone particularly applied to soldiers because they often just had a sword as a sidearm. He didn't make a big deal about the difference between swords & rapiers, & simply used the word "espada" (sword). Even in English, a language that did distinguish between rapiers & swords, Joseph Swetnam wrote that a rapier could serve well enough in war.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 "as commonly conceived."
"Somewhat different."
Yes, I'm well aware of that.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Do note that the sabre fencer was complaining that the saber was at a disadvantage in both duels.
And the experienced 2nd rapier fencer commented on the weakness of the rapier that showed on the first fight & according to his obsrvations, he decided not to allow the advantage of the saber. I am sure that if the first rapier fencer would compete again, she would score more points. It was evident that the rapier had a big advantage, thought it wasnt clear cut (as the longsword vs saber for instance, where the longsword had a way bigger advantage).
Done anything on Rapier vs Spear ?
Moral of the story is dual wield is twice as cool. Duuuuuh knew that already.
Seems like there's some common themes here. In 1v1 in space reach is King. But in a chaotic mass melee or in confined spaces, you want a relatively short, choppy weapon. Looks like my weapon load out is going to be a spear and a messer on the hip!
Love your stuff Man, been a fan for ages, recommend you to my students often, but please dude, move that mic somewhere else, it's really hard to listen to with headphones :)
It would be fun to see Katana vs Fioretto.
16:40 I'm pretty sure 99% of the reasoning of changing the Japanese military swords from European style sabers to katana'ish swords, was mostly nationalism
Next up: *Rapier and Pistol vs Katana*
A single action army would be most appropriate
@@Kinetic.44 Of course, a pistol from the late 19th century is the perfect match for your sword from the early 17th century.
@@atom8248ok but, hear me out? Single actions and katanas definitely interacted with each other.
@atom8248 Yes, it is. Learn about Japanese self isolation and how the US forced them to play with us, and the rest of the world. Commodore Matthew Perry, thanks you.
@@Kinetic.44 The rapier (1500s-1600s) was never used with the single action army (1873).
When the country opened for trade with western countries in the 1850s the gun you're talking about wasn't even invented yet.
I spent the entire video looking at the poleaxe in the background. ;)
Thanks for that one. I watched because there's ongoing speculation as to how Musashi Miyamoto was inspired to develop the Niten-Ichi-Ryu two sword style. I've heard (all poorly sourced and Musashi doesn't credit any inspiration at all in his writings) a) the Jutte b) Taiko drummers and c) witnessing Portueguese fighters with rapier and parrying dagger, in which case Musashi's Niten-Ichi-Ryu style might corroborate your conclusion that Rapier and dagger are superior for duels, not warfare. I'd be interested if you ever look at the Book of Five Rings and compare Musashi's description of guard positions, which he describes in the book of water as analogous to Rapier guards, maybe adapted for Katana's predominantly slashing blade.
I wonder if there is a familiarity problem to contend with. A western combatant has likely trained with and against swords quite similar in many ways to a katana (longsword, saber, messer, etc) but the likelyhood of a samurai training and practicing against a weapon and style similar to a rapier would probably be very small. The closest analogue I can think of would perhaps be a Jian (wielded quite differently) and to some degree spear technique. I think the disadvantage of novelty would favor the western combatant far more than it would the samurai. Not insurmountably, but many of us have encountered the problem when coming against a fighter that just doesn't play the way we expect them to (the guy who just won't enter the bind with sword and buckler or german longsword, or the opposite being the guy who doesn't want to swordfight and just closes to wrestle immediately). If you only get one chance at a thing, that novelty can massively throw you off.
Just to point out the obvious: The rapier is not the run-of-the-mill standard battlefield sidearm for Europeans of that era - especially not for the cavalry. I would, however, be very interested in a video of Naginata vs Halberd / Poleax.
As a sword fanboy over all, I think your approach is very fair because there is no bashing, but a fair comparison. With HEMA background I don't find any significant points of criticism. I also think it's good that the advantages of the katana are highlighted in the CQB of battle, which closes the gap between the Zweihäder and the Katzbalger in comparison to the European setup.
Critically, he never says anything about one sword being better than the other nor about one system being more effective. The fact that the rapier has several advantages over the katana doesn't mean that a kenjutsu master won't be able to overcome those advantages, only that they will have an extraordinarily uphill battle to do so.
One point I think that could be mentioned is that the katana will have far greater leverage than the rapier, which doesn't negate the other factors, but it is a point of potential leverage.
I think the important thing that Matt forgot to mention is that pretty much all of the points also apply to most other comparable weapons, most notable longsword. I.e. you could replace katana with a longsword and most of disadvantages and advantages still be the same. Reason for it, of course, that "true" rapiers hyper specialized for dueling at expense of every other application.
This is the best one yet in the Rapier vs Katana series...
its funny, i wanted to bring a straight Katana and a Sai to to a local Hema(esque) group and see how well it would work with rapier and dagger techniques and just found this video looking up said techniques.
To the best of my knowledge, Musashi created his two sword school after watching Portuguese playing at rapier and dagger. Before that, the katana and wakazashi were not really used together. Old schools don’t teach it that way. But, I could be wrong about that.
Musashi did popularize sentoryu or fighting with a sword in both hands but it’s been said that he didn’t come up with his two sword style, until after he basically retired and wrote the book of five rings, and started teaching disciples, and I’m pretty sure it was stated that there was no actual evidence of him ever using both swords in any of the duels he participated in despite what movies would make you think
I started learning Jujutsu and the Japanese sword, mostly Ken and Iai over 20yrs ago now in my early teens and have only recently in the last 6yrs started crossing over into our European martial arts and can honestly say, whether it's just my preference or it's a fundamental thing as you're saying Matt, my shell hilted english rapier IS a better weapon than my Katana so I'm with you entirely here
One of my uncles is a Kendo and Iai champion and it's been so hard to even touch him when we spar, but since I've been learning the rapier I've had him a few times.
I think that the mixing of established martial arts was meant to happen because of things like this, they compliment eachother so well despite their differences I'd love to know your thoughts Matt? 🙂
Problem with these X Vs Y weapon challenges it's not the weapon but the user and their skill that it put to test.
For example I've had a sparing bout where I used a knife against a staff and dominated not because the knife was a better weapon but because I had more experience than the staff user
I agree that the katana had the advantage in a melee or more chaotic fight. And i think European hisorical fighters would have agreed. shorter cutting swords like cutlass, hangers, and sabers became more popular as fighting circumstances changed
I agree with this as though it would be easier to kill someone with a rapier due to the nature of people often no noticing during a battle that they have been stabbed the lack of cutting and stopping power of the rapier would make it an ill fit for a battlefield.
Cutting vs thrusting is always a fun discussion. Cutting kind of went away in European arms as armor developed, then when firearms made armor kind of pointless it came back. Thrusting is still pound for pound probably more effective, but when you don't have time just hacking and chopping at unarmored foes goes a long way.
I agree with many of your statements and your analysis of the two weapons. But I do think that the one factor that is often overlooked in comparing swords is the person using the sword. I feel that someone who has trained for a lifetime can over come a weapon that has a reach advantage. Experience on the battle field or in dueling is a vital factor in any encounter. If those two combatants are of equal experience and skill with their weapons then yes the weapon can tip the balance.
Matt said this in his video more than once. His analysis is predicated on opponents of equivalent skill, focusing on the attributes of the weapons in question.
@@robertharding5972 You're right. I missed it the first time I listened to the post. But don't you think it is odd that so many "sword sites" not nearly as academic as Matt's fail to take this into account when comparing weapons?
Those mova gloves guys should make a "palantir" like thing....for a friend.
If I'm going to look at it from an objective view I think the rapier with parrying dagger will still have an advantage over the katana with wakizashi purely because the parrying dagger removes the one big disadvantage the rapier has against the katana which was explained in a previous video with the katana needing to deflect the rapier and close in. Even if the katana has a wakizashi the rapier is still a longer blade and the dagger removes the disadvantages the rapier singularly has. But yes the katana does also gain a lot of advantage with an offhand wakizashi, but then again the katana is mostly meant to be held with two hands while the rapier is meant to be held with one hand so the katana loses power if it's dual wielded making it even harder to deflect the rapier in order to close in.
I agree. I once watched a video (not sure who by, not important anymore though) where two kendo practitioners practiced, where one of them had a flimsy olympic-style rapier and the other had their practice sword. The one with the rapier NEVER held one before (he even said it) and their conclusion thus was "the rapier is inferior", which is an incorrect conclusion.
For unarmored my personal experience in order of effectiveness arrow, spear, rapier. However, an aggressive opponent with a two handed saber has terrifying stopping power!
Feel like an arrow is a bit of a cheat. My personal choice is always going to be the projectile weapon in really any circumstance.
Just in general though distance, distance, distance. The further I am from my opponent, the more room I have to breathe and think and react. If that's a long pole, cool. If it's half a mile away behind a scope and under cover, better. If it's half a world away with a button and a computer screen, well now we're getting into some moral conundrums, but in terms of my SURVIVAL (which is my first goal, not gonna lie), that's WAY better.
I mean, you can add shotgun before arrow as well, or hell lever action rifle depending on the time period in question.
That’s Captain Alatriste. Very good film.
13:51 in warfare the primary backup weapon was the tanto, the wakizashi made it breakthrough in the peacefull Edo period.
you talked about the prevalence of sabres during the era slightly after this, and that seems to be very similar for the katana, too bad you didn't mention it
The better comparison would be an uchigatana with an wakizashi. Also uchitatanas vary a lot in lenght and would be longer if made for a taller user, like an european. So you should compare a longer uhcigatana if comparing against a weapon like the rapier if you want to be fair. Maybe a tachi would be a better weapon for such a comparison, since it's basically a swiss saber (two handed heavy saber).
The comparison presented isn’t much different than simply comparing an european long sword versus rapier and dagger, actually. Reach is always an advantage, no matter the weapon.
Musashi did not pioneer the use of the katana-wakizashi in his Niten Ichi Ryu school. This was also described much earlier by the Asaygama Ichiden Ryu. I have been teaching the classic Musashi school and European sword since 1978.
Humm.....So a sword that evolved as a mainly military weapon, for use in battles, is better in battles, as compared to a sword that evolved as a civilian weapon, for use in duels, which is better in duels? I loved how honest you are in this video, and agree. Also love the way you take 20 mins to basically say; "Yes."
But he says yes, so conditionally, with proper context, a couple of time each. That's part of what we love.
@@haldorasgirson9463 oh, it wasn't a criticism, of Mr Easton, far from it.
Another reason you don't generally see people dual wielding in actual war (So a battlefield with masses of soldiers on each side) is that you need way too much room to your sides to make an off hand weapon effective. Contrast this to shields which can be used effectively without needing all that lateral room, and can even be used for shield walls, and well, it just doesn't make much sense to spend all the time mastering a dual wielding style of combat that you aren't going to be able to use if you're a soldier.
For *dueling* it's far more useful, as you don't have friends to either side of you watching your flanks, and whom you need to worry about hitting. But something like Florentine style fencing, or Daisho style katana and wakizashi (Or katana and jitte) is just not terribly useful for actual battlefield formation style fighting.
Your thoughts very much align with my SCA rapier experience. In a 1 v 1 duel, rapier and dagger is a very effective system, but in a grand melee, the dagger isn't much good at all. Bucklers and shields are much more useful in surviving a battlefield.
This is very accurate and well-put but I have to say, it's kind of a long way of saying 'because dual-wielding isn't that effective outside of duels.' In most situations, a single weapon just gets the job done (excepting shields, which isn't usually what people think of when they talk about dual wielding, though it really is a version of it)
@@KaleRylan Well I went a bit longer with it because a lot of people wouldn't understand why something that's quite good in single combat would be poor for massed combat. A LOT of people don't understand how close you stand to the people on either side when fighting in formation. Their only idea of how this stuff works is what they've seen in movies and TV, which is almost never anything like how a proper army would fight. So they're imagining some nonsense like that big battle from season 1 of The Witcher where the two armies run at each other willy-nilly and spread out and it turns into a whole lot of 1v1 combats, which isn't realistic at all (And don't get me started on all the other nonsense from that scene)
There are a few historical accounts of sword & dagger in war, & of paired sabres or even paired odachi (?), but it does seem to be have been relatively rare. Sir John Smythe wanted pikers to draw their swords & dagger together & to use the dagger to stab up under the armor. He specified that these should be simple daggers of modest length, not alehouse daggers or parrying daggers. So it was a form of sword & dagger, but rather different from civilian styles. Francsico Pizarro fought with sword & dagger in battles in Peru, & also in the smaller-scale encounter where he perished.
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Right, but the first example is, as you noted, not the same as something like Florentine style fencing, but a more direct forward attacking style, and the second example is a commander who's not generally going to be standing shoulder to shoulder with the men on the front line.
You can of course find historical examples of dual wielding in war but these are usually from fighting forces that the Romans would have considered "primitive", so more warband style groups that didn't use tight formation style combat.
The Japanese pirates grabbed the pike, but in the Battle of Cagayan in 1582, the Spanish soldiers oiled the pike to make it harder to grab. Is it possible that Japanese pirates grabbed military rapiers? Spanish Rapier has many cutting attacks, so it may be difficult to grab it.
Military rapiers may have had many slashing attacks in countries other than Spain.
The material qualities from the time period alone should make it decisively a defeat for Katanas, but it's nice to see people theorycraft about the shapes and styles.