Star Trek Picard's NEW Guinan is Missing Something IMPORTANT!
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Sorry for the poor grammar, I wrote that on my cell phone :P.
People (actors) getting old. You can't use CGI all the time. So, the writers have to adjust.
No android Data. Aging omnipotent Q. Aging alien Guinan.
300 years is a lot of time to pass for character refinement, soul searching, and growth as an entity to gain a sense of peace within.
@@billkeithchannel just a few days in LA can make you go 'Woke' for an eternity.
My question is how did a bar that didn't exist until the 24th Century end up in 2024.
Guinan didn't remember anything from the other timeline, but the guy on the bus did have the memories from when Kirk & Spock were in SF?
Guinan did not interact with the Starfleet of 70 years before Picard's time.
What we were told about the Confederation may not have entirely been the whole historical truth. Empires and Unions fall or go bad. The changes that brought about the Confederation could have taken place after Kirk's time but before Picard.
@@billkeithchannel I don’t think that would make sense. The confederation is attacking Vulcan, which would be such a complete turn from the Federation. Reminder that Spock was the one to calculate with the computer how to travel through time, and without Spock, no time travel.
@@corruptsolstice340 But the events of Star Trek 4 would have happened more then one hundred years before so for all we know Vulcan could have been part of the Confederation back then or Spock could have been a traitor.
it's admirable how fans of nutrek stretch the common sense to excuse bad writing full of inchoerences and plot holes
For the guy on the bus, same timeline far as he is concerned. And he learned his lesson from spock. Its almost false equivalence.
But…the timeline isn’t gonna change for another 3 days right?! The same Guinan that met Sam Clements is the Guinan that met Picard in 2024 Ten Forward?!?
That's correct. Both possible future timelines share the same history prior to 2024. There is a causality paradox to consider but it's not treated consistently throughout the episode (e.g., bus punk).
@Brad Grant It's possible but remains to be seen.
If they're mucking with historical events then I would've preferred to see Guinan struggling with overlapping memories and somewhat recognizing Picard. This would have made more sense in their scenes together.
Remember, it was CAPTAIN Picard of the Federation that meets Guinan with Samuel Clements. GENERAL Picard of the CONfederation would not be in that scenario where he would have met Guinan in the 19'th century. We know that Guinan has perceptions that extend beyond time but that seemed to be somewhat limited, which would explain how she knew the name Jean-Luc Picard. We have yet to see how that plays out.
Wrong, the timeline has already been changed, in the future. Past-Q is actively doing things right now that will change it. What happens in three days is not "the change" it's the culmination of those events and the point of no return for the those involved (the new element) since they only get one shot at this (no do-over). Presumably past-Q screwed up and since we now see his powers are becoming less reliable or he might have tried to fix it himself; or, since even he can't cross his own timeline and undo his own f-up, he sends Picard back to deal with it.
@@kobayashimaru8114 Alternative scenario: this Guinan is really as young as she looks. The season will end with her job application as a Watcher being approved.
Picard: "Congratulations. Let me guess: 19th century?"
Guinan: "We met then, too?"
Picard: "You didn't recognize me."
Guinan: "I'll do my best."
I'm going to copy/paste my response to this subject from a post I made on FB, as it's long, and I'm too lazy to type it all out again... 😂
I understand the reasoning that the events of Time's Arrow never happened in the Confederation timeline. However it's been shown in multiple instances that events that happen before a timeline split can be affected by travellers from any potential future timeline. The alternate Tasha from Yesterdays Enterprise being one.. she appears in the past on the Enterprise C so from that perspective the timeline of the war with the Kilngons never happened, but she was still there as it was a potential timeline, just not the one that subsequently unfolded.
By the logic of the Federation not existing, Kirk and Co wouldn't have travelled back to the 80s to retrieve the whales. So how does the punk on the bus remember getting a Vulcan nerve pinch? It's because that crew came back from a potential future.
Even Back to the Future shows this - when Doc and Marty go back to stop Biff, the original Marty from the first movie is still there and not erased as a result of old Biff's meddling, because he's from a potential future. (And technically original Marty shouldn't had started to fade away in the first film because of this.. but that's a whole separate issue, lol)
My point is, the Star Trek writers have established it happens this way even in this very episode. Which is why I'm just gonna go with the explanation that Q's powers being on the fritz have jumbled stuff together 😂
The problem is bad writing, like with the show as a whole. What a waste of the Star Trek name...
maybe the federation does exist at first, but something happens between TOS and TNG to make it the Confederation. So Star Trek IV happened but not Generations.
plus the guy in the bus should not have remembered Kirk and Spock because that was in San Francisco, which is 380 miles north of the city they are in, which is Los Angeles. I suppose he could have moved to LA since then though. lol.
So here is a thought... a fine line, but could explain Guinan's personality change. When she met Data and Picard in the past, she was a different Guinan personality wise... a lil more energetic and open to discussions about humanities future. When she meets Data and Picard in Times Arrow and learns about what type of people or personality humanity adopts it is humbling to her, and gives a positive outlook for what humans are to become. So in away her whole personality and outlook for the future is defined as a firm setting... so living and dealing with humans less favorable moments in time were just hurdles to where she knew Data and Picard came from. The advanced knowledge alone is what would have had a greater impact on her sense of the future to come. This would have also fundamentally changes her views and perspectives... even humbling in a way. Since none of this happened her whole time line change and her decisions which might have been influenced by times arrow doesn't exist... so her personality might develop differently. Just some deep thought on this topic.
I like to think she did a good job.
@@jessebleuel7772 Oh for sure, the actress whom played Guinan did an amazing job with the material she was provided. :). I’m just bringing up my theory as to the personality change and the overall effects the initial meeting with Guinan actually had on her as a whole… especially when it comes to her own personal development. :D
The 20th Century is enough to jade anyone.
For a human, sure. This isn't a human though but a hundreds of years old alien that survived an extended war where her species entire empire was destroyed and assimilated by the Borg. Nothing that could have happened on Earth would be anywhere NEAR as bad as even a generic Borg invasion.
I just don't see how her personality changes so much when 99.9% of her hundreds of years of history is entirely identical...
This is an excellent explanation of the personality change. Well done!!
I was taken back by Guinan's behavior, but because the timeline has changed, and past events have changed and molded her in a different way then it becomes explainable; however; I still don't really like it. The personality change was just too much. In TNG Guinan did get emotional but not in the way the way she did in Picard. So I think to be more believable it should have been toned down.
Glad you covered this. I was scratching my head.
She didn’t forget him. This isn’t the same timeline. Picard didn’t go back into the past. He’s not an explorer he’s a warrior.
Exactly. The real oopsie the writers committed was having the mohawk punk reflexively reach for his neck when Seven told him to turn down the music--he should *not* have remembered that incident, since _Star Trek IV_ wouldn't have happened in this timeline, either.
Here is a twist. Picard and crew did not come from the federation timeline, they came back from the Confederation timeline. and if they fix it so the Federation is born - then they would never been in the timeline where they learn they need to come back and fix it. So if they never come back to fix it then the confederation timeline will exist, round and round.
@@Revan2908 That’s not necessarily a mistake. All we know is that STIV would have happened *differently*. Those aliens still would’ve come looking for Earth’s whales. Even if they’re authoritarians, the Confederation would want to save themselves. So a Confederation ship must have gone back in time to find George and Gracie. Spock or some other Vulcan could have been on that ship (even if Vulcan had been conquered, Vulcans could have served onboard ships. In real life, conquered people were often drafted into military service). And that scene with the punk could have still happened.
@@Revan2908 Maybe Confederation Spock and Kirk came back and were much MORE brutal to the mohawk punk.
@@armastat it’s time travel and it’s probably not possible, at least not the way it’s represented in Star Trek. If Star Trek time travel is correct they can never return to their timeline, all they could hope for is another timeline similar to their old timeline. Either their timeline stops existing or Picard and crew stop existing in that timeline.
Soooo...if Guinan didn't remember Picard, why does 'bus-guy' remember Spock's neck pinch, from Star Trek 4?
Theoretically, after the time incursion, Spock wouldn't have been allowed in Starfleet. 🤔
Because of terrible writing.
Its not that its a time frame change for the bus guy, so much as he was humbled by spock and learned to respect others. People can learn lessons.
Another thought: if there was a mistake made, and bus guynis a contradiction, it is a mistake, but bus guy is the mistake , even if it is a funny reference.
Good point.
If She Didn't know or remember Him then Why did She stop in Her tracks and Her attitude about helping Him do a 180° when She heard His name when He told Her??
Hi Christopher, yes this is a problem that we go into in the video. She shouldn't have those "feelings" yet. Good catch.
Ding ding ding ding. She knew the name and was injured in Time's Arrow so maybe her memory was fuzzy about that event. The explanation in the video makes zero sense since time has not been changed YET.
@@MikeTazz THink of it as echo much like Tasha Yar
She knew Tasha Yar wasn't supposed to be there and was supposed to be dead. She doesn't forget everything when time changes. So she would remember echos. Thats what we here when he says his name and thats how she realizes time has been changed.
I thought it was just implied that someone else told her about Picard, like the Watcher or someone related to the Watcher.
Kurtzman hasn’t exactly been careful with continuity overall
Absolutely not plausible. 3 days is the point where time changes the future. The 19th century visit was prior to this change in the time line. So as a result Guinean should have known who Picard was. You don’t need to cover for the writers.
What they are saying is that Picard didnt travel back from his future. He traveled back from the future where he was a General, and in that future he never went back in the episode Times Arrow. Whatever happens in 2024 could create a good future or a bad future but neither would be the same future Picard comes from in TNG. Its a whole separate timeline.
But to that I ask… what is the point in even messing about there? Its implying that Picards original time doesn’t interact at all with this timeline. So there is no point in being there at all, because nothing there can affect what happens in his separate timeline. He just needs to get out of there and go home.
@@timothyvreeland7477 My only comment to that has to do with space/time continuum. Timeline was changed at that point in 2024. That did not create a new back-history. It just meant that time from 2024 changed moving form there, creating the General Picard character. That doesn’t mean that Guinean didn’t have an interaction with Picard in the 19th century. Remember, she is “a linear” aware of all the timelines. She would / should have known of the changes but still held onto her memory.
Either way, interesting spin on the story. Can’t wait to watch it play out.
I get the tendency to think he never went back due to the change, but that is narrow thinking. but you dont have to leave the box to realize that he IS going to fix the timeline (they always do) and therefore he ALWAYS fixed the timeline and Always ended up going back to 1893. So regardless she should remember him.
The real question is how she ended up in a bar on 10 Forward street that didn't exist until the 24th century in the ORIGINAL timeline. Under your explanation AND mine - the bar should not be there.
Three days is when the change becomes impossible to fix. But the new timeline comes with its own past, present, and future. They are in the 2024 of the Confederation timeline. The only reason that Picard remembers Guinan is that "Q" preserved their memories of the old timeline.
@@emsleywyatt3400 Three days is when the change Happens. there is no Impossible to fix condition. you could walk up and shoot her dead at the last second OR offer 10 billion dollars to do it, either way. the past is only changed IF that timeline is created... And in three days we KNOW they will succeed in stopping the change (They always do), which means they always did.
But there is more to the story than we know. for instance the picard/Guinan meeting should not have been possible given that the bar they met in doesn't even exist until the 24th century in the Federation's timeline. Even under your rules of time, it should not exist because she never was on the enterprise so never created the Bar to begin with in the Confederation timeline..
Fair, objective analysis. Personally, this feels like the last season of Lucifer all over again. Heavy handed messaging that directly makes the storytelling worse. Contrary to Trek before Kurtzman, nobody will be smarter or have any new ideas or perspectives after seeing the "political commentary" in this episode. It's a shame, the first two episodes seemed like clear improvements over previous season, but we're right back where we started: edgy, immature and dark interactions and stories (Guinan's new personality fits the theme). At least they got rid of the genocidal android...? Like certain nitpicker has postulated, this all makes more sense if the normal timeline/universe of this show is actually the mirror universe.
Russia just announced a gold backed Ruble and the creation of the PetroRuble. That means the death of the fiat US Dollar and the fall of our current way of life. Dark days coming for sure.
no, no, he's saying the MODIFIED timeline is the mirror universe. The normal timeline is normal TNG. Something happened in 2024 to make it like the mirror universe.
The HollyWoke phase won't last forever. Once "real life humanity" gets back on track again, we may not be Q, but we have the increasing magical abilities of CGI, deep fake and other advanced technologies. We can literally go back and correct things, regardless of what actors and actresses may not be around / available when that time comes. Take a look at some of Corridor Digital's work in the here and now, as a sign of good things to come in the future. To paraphrase the Million Dollar Man TV show from the 20th Century: "we've got the technology, we can rebuild it!" ... and as hardware and software advances, it takes less time and costs less money to do these sorts of things.
@@billkeithchannel Ok, Russian orc bot, thanks for the "information". Too bad Russian economy is smaller than Italian economy, their "PetroRuble" doesn't really hold power to challenge anything. Not even during normal times, and even less now when rubble is having slight issues.
@@neutrino78x No, this particular idea goes beyond that, and also includes STD. Everything is so dark, edgy and conflict-ridden because the shows exist in the mirror universe. It would also explain Klingorcs and other inconsistencies. In this particular case, they just ventured into even darker timeline. :)
First thing I thought when I watched it! He could have went up and dug up Data's head for advice.
But the flip side is the whole different timeline explaination.
And also, Data doesn't appear to exist in the Confederacy Star Fleet.
The message needed to be "heavy-handed" as this culture (our current 21st century, as well as the one on screen) doesn't respond to change without being slapped in the damned face, and hard. This is the one time this review worked the wrong nerve. Maybe because I'm in that minority that has to watch this crap from the inside. Y'all really shouldn't get petty about the politics. It was what was needed. You asked me what I thought. This is it.
Lmao so you're saying that the writing has to be bad to get the point across. Thinking like this is why Hollywood is dying.
Let me give you some "heavy handed" feedback to your message since you seem to be saying that' s the only sort of communication you think works. If you slap the wrong persons face they will beat the hell of you for getting stupid with them.
Since “Time’s Arrow” never happened, Guinan never met Picard in 1893 in this timeline, so she had no idea that humanity was destined for a bright future. And without that certainty that mankind would overcome its pettiness, there’s no reason for her to be hopeful about humanity. And yes, 2024 is the straw that breaks the camel’s back. After witnessing the 20th Century and the first couple decades of this one, the sanctuary districts and environmental destruction happening in Star Trek’s 2024 is just a couple things too many. That’s why it’s called “the straw that broke the camel’s back,” and not “the calamity that broke the camel’s back.” As for the Nexus… if it’s not onscreen, it’s not canon.
How can you be sure it didn't happen? If you assume that Picard and crew will fix the timeline then as far as 1893 is concerned they will always travel back to then.
@@armastat They won’t have traveled to 1893 unless Picard fixes the timeline. 1893 isn’t set in stone. Every previous Trek time travel story either happened differently, or didn’t happen at all, in this alternate timeline. No City on the Edge of Forever, no Voyager traveling to the Nineties… the ONLY one we know for sure happened, is Voyage Home (and there, it would’ve happened differently, perhaps with a different crew going back to retrieve the whales). All of it will be reset once Picard fixes the timeline, though.
@@DarrinBell That doesn't work. This is a point in time BEFORE the Confederation's timeline was created. The change is 3 days away from the day featured in Episode 3. Before then, the two timelines would have been one, with the new one "splitting off" from the day of the change.
@@MrMikellsof88 It does work. Even if they traveled three days ahead of it, they are there to change something that, to them, already occurred. The divergence ALREADY happened, and we know that because we witnessed the timeline it created. If it hadn’t created that timeline, none of our heroes would be in 2024 right now. They’re not trying to prevent a future, they’re trying to change their new past that, thanks to Q, already exists. “Time’s Arrow” was not part of their new past. Which means it wasn’t part of Guinan’s either. This “divergence” isn’t a fork in the road, it’s a pebble creating ripples in a pond. Ripples into the future, and ripples into the past (changing any past events that involved time travel from a future that no longer exists).
@@DarrinBell But from the point of view of 1893 Picard Will come there. since he will fix the timeline he Always comes there
By meeting Picard in the 1890s, she was given hope for the future. Without that hope, she gave up.
My thoughts exactly!
The Guinan in 1893 was older than the one in 2024. So I assume Guinans timline is not linear. The older Guinan probably went hiding to not meet her younger self in the 2020s
She said she can age and de-age at will
@@DemonEyes622 Yes, but her timeline can be twisted like everybody else's timeline.
I love the quality of these posts. So good.
If you'll listen carefully in episode 9, you can hear Goldberg (or a verrry good impersonation) shading a few of Guinan's lines. Something in the vocal quality.
Their should have been an explanation in the episode
Because times arrow was one of the EPIC episodes which ties Picard and Guinan together...
I am perplexed
Aren't we all?
The problem isnt that she forgot him in another timeline where they may not have met, the problem is that she didn't sense something was off or different from another timeline where she knows picard, just like the way she knew tasha yar wasnt supposed to be alive in the split timeline she (also) was in.
Guinan should remember Picard, the timeline they are in is an offshoot of the original one, so anything happening before the divergence happened is the original timeline, unless the Borg Queen gave them the wrong time coordinates (as she took control of the ship when time warping). That is the only thing that makes Guinan not remembering him making sense.
No. Since the timeline is so radically different, there would never have been the "mission" to Devidia II, and therefore they never would have went back to old San Francisco to meet Guinan. Heck, we don't even see any indication of whether or not Data exists in this new timeline.
@@Revan2908 But for the timeline to be this radically different, wouldn't it be more than one thing that changed the timeline?
@@starvr You've heard of the domino effect, I assume? It all starts with one thing.
So sad how they dropped the ball on her. The watcher was like wow. Wonder what it is between them
You make some good points, and honestly... if it's due to the existence of the confederation that Data and Picard never go back to meet Guinan in 1883, that explains that plot point. As for the whales? Since the confederation is more militaristic, maybe they had advanced their weapons to a degree where they were capable of destroying the alien probe before it could destroy Earth (so no need to go back and rescue some whales).
Oh, and by the way, Guinan's species are the El-Aurian, not El-Alaurian (there's no L in the Aurian bit).
That makes a lot of sence actually, tell more people about it
Honestly I believe Guinan would've known who Picard was,I believe that bc Guinan seems to be existing in multiple dimension at the same time all the time. That's the only thing I can think of that explains her vast wisdom and her ability to seemingly just know what is going on like when she just knew that security chief Tasha Yar wasn't supposed to be in the timeline she was in. Guinan is a tough one to figure, but that's what I got.
Well what I don't get is considering the event that alters time is meant to be 3 days from when Picard and crew arrive why is Guinan different?
That's why The Popcast is IMHO totally wrong about the whole timetravel thing with three timelines and everything they deduct from that.
My Hypotheses would be that the events of “Times Arrow” technically do not matter since that future never came to be.
Let’s call it an Anti-Paradox.
I mean Q did help us understand “Anti-Time” via “All good things” Lol.
OK for everyone that's defending the Guinan-Picard change ... food for thought.
They state explicitly that the change that resulted in the new timeline will happen 3 days from the day the episode is set. Which means that for all intents and purposes, on that day, there was no Confederation timeline, just the Federation one. This, coupled with the punk remembering his encounter with Kirk and Spock, points to the obvious conclusion that Guinan should remember Picard.
Unless of course you're going to retort with the argument that the Confederation is the prime timeline in this case and that the "change to history" is merely a subjective fact from the point of view of people from an alternate timeline in which a Federation was born. The argument here being that Q's meddling aims to "restore the correct events" vs Picard and Co.'s efforts to "ensure the change happens" to create their timeline. This, however, is a flawed argument in that it is predicated on the Confederation timeline being the "proper" timeline in which Picard never traveled back in time and thus never met Guinan. However, in the divergent timeline (Federation) he did, travelling to a time before the divergence happened and thus meeting Guinan in a shared continuity.
And don't even get me started on 2024's "10 Forward" bar. She had that bar in 2401 as an homage to the fact that she was the barkeep of the Enterprise-D's recreational lounge, located in the forward-most section of Deck 10. Unless, again, you want to fling across the weak argument that she only agreed to do that because of the bar she had back on Earth, which just shows that you're trying to pander to incompetent writers.
And you are only the FOURTH person so far that has noticed (That I have seen over many review videos) and commented that the bar does not belong there.
First, the timeline has already been changed. What happens in three days is not "the change", it's the moment of no return. It's ALREADY CHANGED in the future, that's the reason they've returned: to prevent a change that has already occured. That's not bad writing. Second, you have no idea what circumstances led to Guinan setting up a bar on the Enterprise but contrary to your insistance, yes, she could have been asked "where do you want to set up the bar" and Deck 10 Forward was available so she went for it. Duh. All you and the likes of you are doing is showing your own lack of imaginations. That's why you aren't professional writers or critics, just a bunch of jealous man children who wail about others' successes in the arts.
New Guinan is awesome. One thing to be wise when everything is calm but it's another thing to be numb to what is happening in the now.
Picard went back in time from a different timeline (the Confederation not the Federation) than Time's Arrow. This is why Guinan didn't known Picard in 2024.
But back in time to a point before the timeline diverted to the darker future.
Until whatever caused the divergence takes place then the original timeline ought to be intact - in any event, Guinan still ought to have sensed the change just as she did in Yesterday's Enterprise.
This makes sense using the same quote used in every star trek time travel episode "sometimes cause happens after effect" Cause = Picard's don't go to Europa changing the timeline and creating the confederation, affect = time line changes in the 1800's due to Picard never travelling back in time to meet Guinan and changing her mind about humanity, just because it didn't change major history events doesn't mean the time line changed in three days, it just means the cause was in the three days and the change in Guinan was when the time line first changed.
If Pixard's Enterprise was changed, Time's Arrow might not have happned so it makes sense. It worked for me, including her time abilities.
Then the bus part don't work since Spock never went back to pinch him. They fucked it which ever way you look at it. They should of just had a quick thing with her remembering then carried on with the story as is and no one would be confused other then 10 Forward shouldn't have been there but thats a whole other issue.
I don’t understand this idea of pulling Guinan away from the nexus in a particular way and time that left her echo there.
The nexus is timeless, so everyone that has ever entered it, is always in it. If you, realizing you are in the nexus, decide to leave it, you still have technically been inside of it for all eternity as soon as you entered.
In other words, what leaves the nexus and what stays behind are always a kind of copy. Everyone whose ever been inside and exited, left something of themselves there.
you forgot one thing ...If it is that Guinan's long life is do to the energy ribbon that happend after the fact then how was she able to live so long up to that point giving the place for the changing time lines... It is a paradox
I think what many people are missing is that new Guinan did not recognize Picard, not "did not remember Picard" as she did appear to know the name once she had been told.
From my understanding, Guinan can in some way, communicate with herself through different dimensions, with this one appearing to be much younger that the Guinan that we have come to know.
And yes, it appears as if Picard did not go back to the 1880's to meet her, this is perhaps why she did not recognize him.
It also appears as if she will never serve on board the Enterprise in the 2360's as she is leaving Earth, this could also be another reason Picard needs to be on Earth in 2024, to make her stay.
Only 1 out of hundreds of thousand of possible theories.
I don’t know, her line about what’s so special about humans probably contributed to me still being here. Sometimes we get so caught up in catching writers gaffs we miss some good stuff
If the time line diverged wouldn't it mean Picard had no need to travel back in the past during Next Gen?
Yes of course, that's what we're saying.
Yes but a lot of people don't realize that
That Dr who on the TV is my favorite Dr who show, besides Tom Baker 4th Dr .
"Engines of Destiny" is a good illustration of how changing the present can change the future which, if time travel is involved, can then change the past. And then the present. It's not a great ST novel but is very on point for this discussion.
Kirk said, I think you had too much LDS. I think he has DDA...
Why would Guinan remember Picard if Data never went back to old San Francisco? But she did seem to remember something when he told her his name, almost like a time flash from Yesterday's Enterprise when she looked into the rift.
She reacts to the name Picard because she knows the Watcher and who she's watching.
Hopefully Alec Baldwin didn't check that prop shotgun before the scene was shot....
What about the fact that the bar in 2024 is still 10 Forward? Hundreds of years before Guinen worked in the bar in 10 Forward.
Spot-on, except for one thing. The timeline doesn't change for three more days. They landed in April 12, 2024. Until April 15, 2024, the Prime timeline is still intact.
If the Prime timeline did NOT change "yet," who came back, and why? You're thinking too linearly.
In our "timey-wimey" continuum, they are in a universe where the "change" has already happened shortly *in their future*: their mission us to make sure a different sequence of events occurred. Schrodinger intended his cat experiment to be a parody, not hard science. For them to be able to travel to this past, their future must already exist or there'd be no place to travel from. Remember, it is established in the episode that this is NOT an alternate timeline; quantum deviation is not in play.
I think that it's entirely possible that she could be forgiven for forgetting a face that she last saw from around 131 years previously, and then for only a few moments after being injured.
Another possibility is that time was in flux, and so multiple potential timelines were converging on that point.
This season looks alot better then season 1
There is just one Guinan and one Guinan only!
I‘m thinking the same! It’s logical! 🖖
Season is not over, so we'll have to wait to say anything, but all this "timeline hasn't happened yet" simply doesn't click with the entire concept of POINT OF DIVERGENCE: everything BEFORE the point is JUST HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. Unless there are more time travels/plot devices to be shown, this is one of those things I just can't pretend to not have seen. Which is awful for Ito. The role being recast is more than ok and she had to create her own Guinan from what the script demanded of her, but she risks being remembered as "the wrong Guinan" among the fandom because of this.
I'm always holding on to my thought for a second.
the elaurians are all star treks biggest secret villain
Doesn't seem fair to judge Picard show runners for not following a previously planned script from 30 years ago that never made it to TV.
No, they just made it to the movies and are referenced on the TV shows.
It's not just ignoring TNG, it's ignoring every other instance of Time Travel in the franchise. Those are the established rules.
Rather have a bottle of good wine than a tee shirt
Ole TEXAS Saying "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It". I Love Star Trek.
I’ve never had the opportunity to see any Picard Treks…was sorry I didn’t know enough about tech to connect with it. Nut what glimpses I saw from adverts…it’s so different form Trekking,,not sure I’d like it tho I do like the Picard character.
guinan not remembering problem is a little more problematic than you think, as if you watch times
arrow and generations again you will find that guinans whole existence here at this time is problematic. the guy on the bus could be remembering another encounter with someone that instead of a nerve pinch broke his shoulder instead, the unknown probe that
came to check on the whales would still be coming, the time travel event(Star Trek 4) COULD still occur only this time more violently.
But as to the elurion's get sick when time changes, that picard mentions, it does make some sense if he shortened it, because of information he just takes for granted about this particular member of the species. humans that went through the same process don't
appear to be effected in the same way. elurion's also do seem to already have a smaller time sensitivity they eventually developed time travel. as to her suffering the effects before she entered the nexius well this is a timeless place as such why would the
effects of the experience be only forwards in time. She may not of felt any effect of data being sent back to meet up with her simply because this was how it was meant to be.
Okay so did they ever found Data on this Federation Outpost than? IN this Toliterian Confed Timeline?
I think the orignal Guinan wouldn't care for "The View" version of Whoopi....
nuff said?
Everyone has a point of stress through time, doesn't mean we don't come out stronger if we don't snap scars don't heal but they do make us tuffer for future experiences. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Guinan is stronger she didn't give up hope.
The Federation never existed. Picard was kept separate by Q from the new timeline. Data never lost his head in 1893. Picard and crew never traveled to 1893. Moore’s statement about Guinan and the Nexus is beta-canon. Picard has memories from the original timeline Guinan does not.never took me out for a second. Anything done by the Federation in time travel is undone because the Confederation was there. The other stuff, sort out for yourself, but Edith Keelers absence could account for the Confederation, maybe the whale seeker could not penetrate the shield thrown up to aid Earths environment, the Borg hasn’t encountered the Confederation yet due to Q’s pulling a string, etc,etc.
THE BIG PARADOX is HOW does 10 Forward exist in 2024? ... it FIRST exists in the 24th century AFTER her time on the enterprise.
2024 is also the time of Gabriel Bell aka Captain Cisco.
Guinin need a SERIOUS memory Upgrade. At least meet Picard half way on the memory trail. This will be really boring to have her learn all this and keep the plot straight.
Did the bar Ten Forward exist before the bar on the 10th deck forward section on Enterprise?
nope. You are only the THRID person I have heard that even notice this.
no because the guinan of enterprise was not yet exposed to the nexus so she dosent have a time echo, and the guinan of the enterprise is from a different future, which would then result in a different past connected to that future.
So, the threads that weave and connect to that particular past does not exist, yet.
New Guinan is hot. And I had a bit of a problem with the original Guinan character being a trope. So I don't care if she's too emotional or too jaded or whatever
As the Federation timeline never existed, it makes sense that Guinan has no past memory of Picard. However that being the case, although very clever, there is a plot hole in regards to the punk on the bus. He is the same punk from Star Trek The Voyage Home film. Given the Federation never existed, the punk should have no recollection of the Vulcan nerve pinch that Spock gave him in the film’s earlier timeline after Seven tells him to turn down that noise in the Picard episode
"Should"? Why couldn't Confederation Kirk and Spock have done the exact same thing as Federation counterparts? You don't even have to go that far. Maybe the whales never went extinct in this timeline because of Human First or whatever and this guy took lumps from some other person possibly a Vulcan (T'Pol even). This is done primarily for comic effect anyway, I don't really see why anyone is taking that scene so seriously.
Where do I go to watch this series?
Don't forget about it that this timeline shes in is completely changed. So its no surprise at all that she also been frustrated and wanna leave this race of destructive humans here.
Sorry for being so "meta" here, but my guess is that there is simply no-one on the writing team having seen or remembering the content from TNG, even not the main actor, to know that Guinan should recognize Picard. And especially that she looked older in the 19th century than now in the 21st.
That is the least likely explanation and if you watched the entire video and this is specifically addressed. This Picard and Seven, etc came from a different future, one where they never went back to San Francisco and met Guinan.
I think her new attitude can be explained by the fact that she never met Picard and company in the late 1800s. Meeting them must have given her hope and knowledge that while humanity sucks now, they will eventually get better.
That explanation doesn't work. The change to the timeline has not yet happened, therefore the original timeline is currently intact.
In any event, Guinan ought to have been able to sense that the timeline had changed and recognised Picard as a sort of echo of the proper course of events.
I wonder 8f they ever considered Isis Carmen Jones as the younger Guinan - she played the younger version of her in the episide 'Rascals' and also the younger version of Whoopie's character in Sister Act.
new guinan could be interesting. i'd like to see more of her adventures. but with less crying.
not to worry , she gets over her Woke phase shortly after leaving California.
In the original timeline Guinan knew that there was a better future ahead because she met Picard and his crew 1893.... since she didn't meet him in this timeline, nor being the Nexus, she cannot "see" that the future is better place and is only "seeing" the injustices of the past and in the current time continue again and again...
But would Guinan not see the natural decrease in injustice? If you were to graph injustice from 1893 to 2024 would it not be a positive rise?
My only surprise is what Guinan brought to the gun show.
Re: kurtzman trek. Again
If there is any philosophical narrative that can be empirically verified, my sister-in-law was trying to explain to me that the Butterfly Effect was REAL. I initially scoffed at her and explained that some perceptions of the Butterfly Effect, the Mandela Effect, were just a faulty memory. But deep down I remembered John Wheeler once said time is nature’s way of ensuring that everything does not happen at once. And this is so strangely accurate. The effect is real once properly understood.
Have you considered the Beauty of our Eucharistic Adoration? Our Franciscan Spirituality invites us to reflect on the beauty of Eucharistic Adoration much like a Holy Tesseract back in time.
We have to go back to the Garden of Eden and GUIDE Eve to chose from the Tree of Life FIRST and give it to Adam. Thankfully the Virgin Mary already Crushed the Serpents head. Then it will be like no one fell from grace. Eve needs to chose from the Tree of Life FIRST and give it to Adam. Then Christ will be 'born again' through the Virgin Eve.
There is a ‘Present’ that is everywhere at once. Right now it is the Present. But if I wait a few seconds it is still the Present. And if I wait a Thousand Years, it’s still the Present. What divides the Past & Present yet retains so interconnected?
Once upon a time I’ll pass on to the next
For as soon as I am here I’ve left.
However this is merely how you perceive.
For I never really change and yet still continue to weave.
I am reminded of that old poem from long ago:
“Has it ever struck you that life is all memory, except for the one present moment that goes by you so quick you hardly catch it going?”
Tennessee Williams
Well if we go by this logic no one points out that the roswell newmexico crash never happened in this timelime I know it's a small detail but yeah.
I understand that people are p*$$ed about this/Guinan, but the real FUBAR is the mention of Spearhead Operations. Which is Russell Taylor's PMC from MacGyver. You can't fold the Trek and NCIS/Lenkov-verse together without creating a crap-ton of inconsistencies.
Guinan doesn’t know who Jean Luc is because the writers and show runners didn’t watch the original show.
No no no no you're wrong. The Guinan Picard goes back to meet is PRE-Confederation. That time split hadn't happened yet. So she should've known Picard.
Ito Aghayere nails the role, the writers however didn't. The new Guinan isn't bad but I prefer the old Guinan.
Turns out the watcher hates them all because they are also angry about trek being ruined.
I have given up in the new series.. well almost all.. lower decks started bad as well but the last few episodes were surprisingly better.
Since she met Picard way in the past, she knew about humanity's future the whole time she was on earth, so maybe she had an easier time looking past all the ugly on way there. But now without having met him, she doesn't have the benefit of knowing that humanity will improve. Over hundreds of years that cynicism makes her a different person.
Time paradoxes give me headaches.
Guinan is an or the Oracle of sorts it seems they are getting at with the character..
So if going back to the past only affects things that happen in the evil dictatorship future, then why go back at all? Picards original timeline doesnt affect the past, only the bad timeline seems to affect the past. Seems like Picard just needs to get out of that timeline because nothing there matters. He just needs to return to his own thread.
he's trying ot make it so there isn't an evil dictatorship future and instead there is the normal TNG future. :)
I think if she is so old, the last 80 to 100 years would feel like what 2019-2021 felt for us.
This is a younger and less experienced version of herself who is still gaining the wisdom and the resilience she will have later in life. Picard met her on a bad day (or decade?) maybe her 200’s are like our early 20’s.
Give me .a Freaking Break Guinan had not met Piccard back before he was born
oil, do you mean coal, all houses were heated by coal in the cities
@The Popcast- Occam's Razor: there's no great mystery here. The lead writer on Picard, Akiva Goldsman, can't write. He doesn't pay attention to continuity and prefers a "throw enough stuff on a wall, something will stick" approach. This is the guy who wrote the scripts of Batman and Robin, and Transformers: The Last Knight for Pete's sake and you want to know if this is part of some big overarching plot? You're treating this as if this is some big David Lynchian mystery. It's not. Goldsman even admitted he doesn't get ST TNG; he's nearly 60 and he's just learning to write Star Trek. This guy got in the TV/movie script business because of who he knows. Peter David was right! Goldsman can't write.
New Guinan…Amazing! Looking forward to more of this actresses’ refreshing presence! Engage.
So, since Q didn't send PicardBot Et al back before the branching of the timeline then in order to undo the branching that suggests there's some more time travelling intended from this point in the branch going back to create the branching in the first place. Interesting.
If the break in the timeline is 2024, then Guinan wasn’t saved from the Nexis because the Federation that saved her (with Kirk) didn’t exist either. So clearly you didn’t think about the implications far enough back in the timeline before you drew your conclusions.
The Guinan of TNG recognized that something was "off" about the timeline, this one did not. The ways in which Picard and Discovery piss on Star Trek canon are so plentiful and egregious that most of the nitpickers that have manage to keep watching this steaming pile of trexcrement, have lost count a long time ago.
Totally agree. At her age, even in 2024, she seems like a juvenile petulant. Even regarding the timeline change, recursive changes aside, Guinan should still sense the juxtaposition of different timelines as that is the Elorian-Nexus superpower, at least so I thought from TNG.
And she knew the bat world be on the 10th deck, forward section…. Ugh
I think her personality shift can be easily explained by the fact that she's at a period in her life where she's fed up, and she doesn't know this dude who showed up. The part that they really need to explain is how the events referred to in Generations changed her vs. what it means to be an El Aurian. I have a feeling they will explain her bad blood with Q as well as the watcher (If they don't, I'll definitely be disappointed). Lastly, I love this new actress for Guinan.