As a long tern AP1 owner I would have to agree with your assessment that taking the car to it's max demands a lot from a driver but can be very rewarding once you get a feeling for it's limits.
Want to applaud the owner for getting behind the wheel and taking it out on track. If he can take it slow and grow with it it will make him better in the long run. I have such mixed feelings about the AP1. I love it when I am in the zone and ready to GO. But below the limit idk seems like I am missing the true experience. When driving at the limit and tired or not on top of my game...no thanks I just pack up and call it a day. That character in the stock AP1 makes me like and respect it but at time it turns me off to the car.
What a great car. This twitchiness is what I read about in contemporary reviews. I feel like the S2000 should be very playful, but instead it demands big respect. Great descriptive summary of this at the end. What an engine though.....*drool* Really enjoyed the shared impressions at the end and debrief! If owners are keen you should do more of this. Angus sounds like a true enthusiast too and all the best to him for learning about this car on track. Be careful with this little beast dude! They don't make them like this any more!
Epic video and I love the honest feed back! It’s so important to get the word out that these cars aren’t for the regular driver. I’ve got a factory 09 which is the most watered down user friendly s2k and I’m not ashamed to admit this is the only car I’ve ever been afraid to take to the limit. It’s really no wonder why so many of these (especially ap1) have been totaled.
I feel like the rear bump steer kit is a must for AP1s. Not sure how it would be on a stock car, but after putting them on my square 255, square spring rate setup, it made a HUGE difference. The car’s breakaway characteristic was much more linear and I felt more in tune of what the rear of the car was doing.
This electric power steering feedback is due to the narrow front tires, if I remember right. Once I switched to square setup I remember thinking that steering feel wend dead, even though I've gained more grip.
Stock AP1 has lovely steering feel indeed. It came with 205 tire stock. Track builds eventually go 255. Of course some suspension adjustments need to be made. Hence, why no modified s2000 drive the same
9:40 strong centering force is most likely due to different scrub radius of the aftermarket wheels. AP1 came with 205 tire upfront so to fit 235 the offset was decreased -> more positive scrub radius -> more centering force
Man, couldn't agree more with the title. I'm a fairly young driver and have owned a 2019 GTI & a e90 335i rwd sport pack, both with sticks and both of which have taught me good driving lessons. That said, my dad has a ap1 s2000 and I absolutely loathe it. The steering is more dead than basically any current "sporty" EPAS rack and I don't feel like you can feel the rotation very well at all. We turo'd a 135i convertible - clearly not a sports car - and it could carry way more speed into corners and was honestly more fun because I could actually feel what the car was doing, both steering and in body roll / rotation. With the S2000, I'm in fear of spinning the entire time. I respect it and I'm sure for a driving master it can be satisfying, but man, just not my thing whatsoever.
I'm not a fan at all. Have owned two Elises & race karts so it's not a driver problem as much as every owner would love to believe. It's a weak chassis problem rushed to a 50 year anniversary deadline. Around 7K Nm/degree of torsionsal rigidity. And you can feel the body flex. Especially the front end. And i had an AP2. Supposedly more rigid. Not good... less than an NC MX5. It's not just you. Others have found the chassis lacking. But they're usually not journalists or RUclipsrs. I sincerely mean no offense, but maybe not experts... Anyways, Max Angelleli found it weak as well. Low slide controllability & chassis sorely lacking in rigidity. Poor steering feel imo. Also very heavy for the size & wheelbase. Less than the sum of its parts for sure and definitely getting by on quite a bit of Vtec nostalgia, yo. Z4 M roadster/coupe, 128i with nice mods, Elise, ND2, GR86, 987 Cayman with solid mods, RX8 & more now are all as lightish stiffer/better chassis & driver's cars with a handbrake. And NA + manual. Must haves, imo. Evora NA as well which isnt so far off in price now.
@@65hi863dhyus2000 has good rigidity for a convertible from late 90s. It’s NA/NB Miata times, not surprising to loose bench torsion numbers to NC. I call BS the claim of front end flex. S2000 doesn’t benefit from front strut braces at all, it’s a pure cosmetic thing You don’t see much aftermarket braces on the market . Only niched products that might benefit monster truck builds with 255 square tire setups and powerful aeros. Mostly bracing for the rear wings.
@@65hi863dhyu dafuq are you complaining about classic long hood roadster proportions? gives out the depth of your “stiffness knowledge”. British roadsters of a half century ago were having no sloppy front ends. Also hard to feel “sloppiness” at the same time of numb steering feel. It’s not LADA that being discussed here
Nice vid, love the track vids,cant wait to track my Ap1 this season. would love to see you track a RCF Track edition with proper tires. So many non car cars review those cars and know what what the hell theyre talking about lol
Most of the twitchiness is just the bumpsteer issues (rapid changing between toe in and toe out). An AP2 rear subframe will help. The Wisefab suspension grip kit will REALLY help. You want to try to do something to correct the bumpsteer though, especially if the car is lowered.
As a 987.2 owner myself, I was thinking the same. Porsche only built a few thousand of them over the four years sold, so marvel at 'em since it's far more rare than a .1 model. I'm very curious what mods the owner is using on track, since I've got my own setup.
Same! Just started doing Autocross and track days in my ND2 Miata this year. The car is so much more capable than I am. So much to learn! But that’s the great thing, is that just with some pads and fluid you have a great handling car that will run laps all day. While others are out of fuel, can keep getting seat time.
@@KenColton i agree. But how are you living with is as your daily with the minor nuisances such as the vibration/rattle of the gear lever while at idle, the loud wind + road noise. When i had my miata, had to wear those in-ear headphones to lessen the harshness of it.
I race karts. Had an AP2 I did not love. S2k is highly sensitive to inputs & lifting off. But the chassis is linguine with poor steering feel. It is fun. But in highly unsorted, manic and without linear oversteer breakaway characteristics, way. I'd add as much chassis bracing as possible. And by now has to be mods for the lack of steering feel.
30K Nm/degree of torsional rigidity in the RX8 vs around 7K in the S2K. Owned both. Prefered the RX8 by a lot. Also the exact same EPS system and somehow Honda failed and Mazda nailed the feel.
Surprised this much of negative thought about the car, don’t know how many of them have actually drive the S2K, but just shocked the wind direction on the internet just turned this fast, and start seeing people even say the S2K is the most overrated car. To me, this is a bit ironic, especially it’s under Zygrene‘s video. 😅
Sounds more like lower skill drivers that are unable to control/keep up with the handling and oversteer if you read their feedback closer Pretty much all say the same thing
Haters gonna hate my guy!! The real ones know how special they are.. the s2k was made to pay respect to mr Honda himself and the engineers were given the freedom to really stretch their legs. 24 years later and it’s still giving these newer entry level “sports cars” trouble. Respect.
I had an Ap1 square setup 255s no wing. That thing would snap on me so easily, I never could get confidence in the car 25 track days in a year. Crashed into the wall at Sonoma raceway. Are Ap2s much better?
Did you have the OEM sway bars on it? I've read on an old s2ki thread that the '00-'01 sway bars are by far the stiffest out of all model years (including the CR), especially the rear bar I'm curious if swapping the rear bar for an AP2's or CR's (and getting a rear anti-bumpsteer kit) would help alleviate a good percent of an AP1's twitchiness with a square setup
@@CarsMeetsBikes that's the problem with the s2k. You need big brakes, to fit big brakes you need giant square setup wheels and redo the whole suspension for this setup, then some aero / pulled fenders to fit the wheels 😪 then you might be as fast as a stock 987 which costs the same lol
@@holelee7834 You’re really underestimating the power delivery of the Porsche, it has quite a bit more torque than the AP1 plus it’s mid engine and possibly PDK so it’s gonna put the power down a lot sooner.
@@canyonrun2565 ive owned loads for the prices they go for now there is better cars for sure, they also have terrible steering feel, easily the worst part of the car but overall as a package they are tremendous fun.
I wouldn't say overrated. Just a flawed diamond. One of the best engines and transmissions ever in an FR layout with a drop top....I think it's more so that it's tantalizing what it would have been like built 200kgs lighter with old school hydraulic steering, pretty close to perfection....
@@samueldowney2806 i used to have a GT86 but i preferred my E90 on road and track due to having more character with engine and hydraulic steering and it wasn't a sports car..
@Josh-sw8pq And not nearly as fun or capable. Torsional rigidity. You really need to look into it... Why a stock GR86 will kill a stock s2000 around Tsukuba or my local track. And feel way better at the limit... Have you owned both too lmfao?...
As a long tern AP1 owner I would have to agree with your assessment that taking the car to it's max demands a lot from a driver but can be very rewarding once you get a feeling for it's limits.
Want to applaud the owner for getting behind the wheel and taking it out on track. If he can take it slow and grow with it it will make him better in the long run. I have such mixed feelings about the AP1. I love it when I am in the zone and ready to GO. But below the limit idk seems like I am missing the true experience. When driving at the limit and tired or not on top of my game...no thanks I just pack up and call it a day. That character in the stock AP1 makes me like and respect it but at time it turns me off to the car.
s2k was my first track car also. Respect the car is the right approach. Def can't get away with the car saving you if you mess up.
What a great car. This twitchiness is what I read about in contemporary reviews. I feel like the S2000 should be very playful, but instead it demands big respect. Great descriptive summary of this at the end. What an engine though.....*drool*
Really enjoyed the shared impressions at the end and debrief! If owners are keen you should do more of this. Angus sounds like a true enthusiast too and all the best to him for learning about this car on track. Be careful with this little beast dude! They don't make them like this any more!
Epic video and I love the honest feed back! It’s so important to get the word out that these cars aren’t for the regular driver. I’ve got a factory 09 which is the most watered down user friendly s2k and I’m not ashamed to admit this is the only car I’ve ever been afraid to take to the limit. It’s really no wonder why so many of these (especially ap1) have been totaled.
2024 Zygrene gets another S2000
I wish I had the money and space lol
I feel like the rear bump steer kit is a must for AP1s. Not sure how it would be on a stock car, but after putting them on my square 255, square spring rate setup, it made a HUGE difference. The car’s breakaway characteristic was much more linear and I felt more in tune of what the rear of the car was doing.
Which kit did you install?
@@Carbonsteel megan racing
@@xvpboyxlink pls?
@@joshspades9031everything is on the internet my friend
This electric power steering feedback is due to the narrow front tires, if I remember right. Once I switched to square setup I remember thinking that steering feel wend dead, even though I've gained more grip.
Yeah I remember the same thing happening to my first AP2. The EPS is super sensitive to tire width and compound.
Stock AP1 has lovely steering feel indeed. It came with 205 tire stock.
Track builds eventually go 255. Of course some suspension adjustments need to be made. Hence, why no modified s2000 drive the same
That's why I run stagger setup. I want steering feel.
My first track car was a 2011 wrx hatchback, id say it was beginner friendly because of its understeering bias and relatively stable feel.
Certainly not a beginners car. I've seen more of them spin and get stuffed into walls at the track than any other model.
It seems like his car has too much understeer so you have excessive steering input and when the rear lets go its more snappy than normal
9:40 strong centering force is most likely due to different scrub radius of the aftermarket wheels.
AP1 came with 205 tire upfront so to fit 235 the offset was decreased -> more positive scrub radius -> more centering force
Finally some agreed with me those people always think they can slay the VTEC like a front wheel VTEC but not
Man, couldn't agree more with the title.
I'm a fairly young driver and have owned a 2019 GTI & a e90 335i rwd sport pack, both with sticks and both of which have taught me good driving lessons. That said, my dad has a ap1 s2000 and I absolutely loathe it. The steering is more dead than basically any current "sporty" EPAS rack and I don't feel like you can feel the rotation very well at all. We turo'd a 135i convertible - clearly not a sports car - and it could carry way more speed into corners and was honestly more fun because I could actually feel what the car was doing, both steering and in body roll / rotation.
With the S2000, I'm in fear of spinning the entire time. I respect it and I'm sure for a driving master it can be satisfying, but man, just not my thing whatsoever.
I'm not a fan at all. Have owned two Elises & race karts so it's not a driver problem as much as every owner would love to believe. It's a weak chassis problem rushed to a 50 year anniversary deadline. Around 7K Nm/degree of torsionsal rigidity. And you can feel the body flex. Especially the front end. And i had an AP2. Supposedly more rigid. Not good... less than an NC MX5. It's not just you. Others have found the chassis lacking. But they're usually not journalists or RUclipsrs. I sincerely mean no offense, but maybe not experts... Anyways, Max Angelleli found it weak as well. Low slide controllability & chassis sorely lacking in rigidity. Poor steering feel imo. Also very heavy for the size & wheelbase. Less than the sum of its parts for sure and definitely getting by on quite a bit of Vtec nostalgia, yo. Z4 M roadster/coupe, 128i with nice mods, Elise, ND2, GR86, 987 Cayman with solid mods, RX8 & more now are all as lightish stiffer/better chassis & driver's cars with a handbrake. And NA + manual. Must haves, imo. Evora NA as well which isnt so far off in price now.
Sounds like you should try driving it with the power steering off. They’re light enough to drive without it
@@65hi863dhyus2000 has good rigidity for a convertible from late 90s. It’s NA/NB Miata times, not surprising to loose bench torsion numbers to NC.
I call BS the claim of front end flex. S2000 doesn’t benefit from front strut braces at all, it’s a pure cosmetic thing
You don’t see much aftermarket braces on the market . Only niched products that might benefit monster truck builds with 255 square tire setups and powerful aeros. Mostly bracing for the rear wings.
@@65hi863dhyu dafuq are you complaining about classic long hood roadster proportions? gives out the depth of your “stiffness knowledge”.
British roadsters of a half century ago were having no sloppy front ends.
Also hard to feel “sloppiness” at the same time of numb steering feel. It’s not LADA that being discussed here
@@65hi863dhyu so tell me, master of CAD, any convertible car of similar wheelbase that is lighter.
Even mini convertible is about the same weight
Nice vid, love the track vids,cant wait to track my Ap1 this season. would love to see you track a RCF Track edition with proper tires. So many non car cars review those cars and know what what the hell theyre talking about lol
Most of the twitchiness is just the bumpsteer issues (rapid changing between toe in and toe out). An AP2 rear subframe will help. The Wisefab suspension grip kit will REALLY help. You want to try to do something to correct the bumpsteer though, especially if the car is lowered.
Yo who is wheeling that 987.2?! Bro is moving lol
As a 987.2 owner myself, I was thinking the same. Porsche only built a few thousand of them over the four years sold, so marvel at 'em since it's far more rare than a .1 model. I'm very curious what mods the owner is using on track, since I've got my own setup.
Cayman is confidence inducing, that S2 looks like a handful.
Beginner track car for me was a Miata
"The answer is always..."
Same! Just started doing Autocross and track days in my ND2 Miata this year. The car is so much more capable than I am. So much to learn! But that’s the great thing, is that just with some pads and fluid you have a great handling car that will run laps all day. While others are out of fuel, can keep getting seat time.
@@KenColton i agree. But how are you living with is as your daily with the minor nuisances such as the vibration/rattle of the gear lever while at idle, the loud wind + road noise. When i had my miata, had to wear those in-ear headphones to lessen the harshness of it.
AP1 rear toe out under compression makes for a bad time
Once i heard staggered setup, it was over lol. S2Ks are so nimble, and quick! They do require a lot of attention.
I race karts. Had an AP2 I did not love. S2k is highly sensitive to inputs & lifting off. But the chassis is linguine with poor steering feel. It is fun. But in highly unsorted, manic and without linear oversteer breakaway characteristics, way. I'd add as much chassis bracing as possible. And by now has to be mods for the lack of steering feel.
Excessive scrub radius caused by improper offset wheels could also cause the weird steering feel.
Most likely. Also positive scrub radius usually adds to understeer
0:08 Car so fast, it imparted a gangsta lean on the 1.
I think rx8 is great track car minus rotary engine. Chassis is very planted and forgiving.
This is why the NC Miata is a nice compromise these days. Shares suspension components with the RX-8. Lots of people picking them up as project cars.
A 2.5 NC will wreck a s2000
@@epvendetta The rx8 has a longer wheel base though.
@@Zonewest hence, compromise.
30K Nm/degree of torsional rigidity in the RX8 vs around 7K in the S2K. Owned both. Prefered the RX8 by a lot. Also the exact same EPS system and somehow Honda failed and Mazda nailed the feel.
Surprised this much of negative thought about the car, don’t know how many of them have actually drive the S2K, but just shocked the wind direction on the internet just turned this fast, and start seeing people even say the S2K is the most overrated car. To me, this is a bit ironic, especially it’s under Zygrene‘s video. 😅
I just think more high skill drivers with experience in a variety of other sports cars are entering the chat...
Sounds more like lower skill drivers that are unable to control/keep up with the handling and oversteer if you read their feedback closer
Pretty much all say the same thing
@FCustureri nah. Just jelly Vtec owners with little experience outside anything else. Always the same story with S2K owners...
@@65hi863dhyu LOL cool teenager comeback bro
Why not just post some of your own driving vids and show us then, this is RUclips after all?
Haters gonna hate my guy!! The real ones know how special they are.. the s2k was made to pay respect to mr Honda himself and the engineers were given the freedom to really stretch their legs. 24 years later and it’s still giving these newer entry level “sports cars” trouble. Respect.
he needs a bucket seat to get some more feel like he is looking for... cause it doesn't come from steering wheel =(
Idk how you did it but I can’t come to sell my s2k bro
I had an Ap1 square setup 255s no wing. That thing would snap on me so easily, I never could get confidence in the car 25 track days in a year. Crashed into the wall at Sonoma raceway. Are Ap2s much better?
So many walls at Sonoma. My 914 was super twitchy and my butt was puckered every lap.
@@JK-allday I binned it in turn 7 of all places trying to rotate the s2k on throttle cause I was getting frustrated with it.
Did you have the OEM sway bars on it? I've read on an old s2ki thread that the '00-'01 sway bars are by far the stiffest out of all model years (including the CR), especially the rear bar
I'm curious if swapping the rear bar for an AP2's or CR's (and getting a rear anti-bumpsteer kit) would help alleviate a good percent of an AP1's twitchiness with a square setup
@@silvvverlight I had one of the softest rear sway bars. Can't remember about the bumpsteer kit, I did have the after market lower control arms.
API has torque.. Like Civic LX, LOL.
How did the ap1 get dusted by that stock base 987.2 poor man's Porsche. it only has a little more power and inferior suspension.
No confidence in the car it seems like - staggered setup and brakes had no bite
@@CarsMeetsBikes that's the problem with the s2k. You need big brakes, to fit big brakes you need giant square setup wheels and redo the whole suspension for this setup, then some aero / pulled fenders to fit the wheels 😪 then you might be as fast as a stock 987 which costs the same lol
987.2 are very capable. S2000 isn’t as capable stock.
Was it a base? It pulled away like an S but I wasn't paying close attention
@@holelee7834 You’re really underestimating the power delivery of the Porsche, it has quite a bit more torque than the AP1 plus it’s mid engine and possibly PDK so it’s gonna put the power down a lot sooner.
I don't care if the AP2 is the better car. The AP1 is just is just the BEST s2000.
Swapping out the AP1 bumper for the AP2 is an idiot move you should want people to know you're driving the better car with the better motor
Most overrated sports car according to Evo magazine..
For the current prices I agree.
@@canyonrun2565 ive owned loads for the prices they go for now there is better cars for sure, they also have terrible steering feel, easily the worst part of the car but overall as a package they are tremendous fun.
It's a car that requires the right modifications to truly shine
I wouldn't say overrated. Just a flawed diamond. One of the best engines and transmissions ever in an FR layout with a drop top....I think it's more so that it's tantalizing what it would have been like built 200kgs lighter with old school hydraulic steering, pretty close to perfection....
@@samueldowney2806 i used to have a GT86 but i preferred my E90 on road and track due to having more character with engine and hydraulic steering and it wasn't a sports car..
This channel is becoming exclusively S2000 🥱 what happened to BRZs?
I'd much rather have a BRZ...
They blow up
@@65hi863dhyu Worse weight distribution, worse engine placement, worse engine, worse suspension design.
@Josh-sw8pq And not nearly as fun or capable. Torsional rigidity. You really need to look into it...
Why a stock GR86 will kill a stock s2000 around Tsukuba or my local track. And feel way better at the limit...
Have you owned both too lmfao?...