All of what this guy says is true. But the thing not addressed is plant adaptability and acclimatisation to its environment. So a cutivar that has been bred under HID may not give you the result you want or expect under LED. Because it has adapted to THAT (HID) environment. So a particular taste ,flavour, terpine & cannibinoid profile will alter dramatically with LED. And if that (HID) has created a signature cultivar. It may loose that profile signature unless you re- select. Aside from this YES its the death of HID in horticulture. The wheel might still be spinning but the hamster is stone cold dead.
Thanks for posting this amazing video. Since both LEDs and HIDs are being used for indoor farming, LED vs HID for plant growing become a debatable topic in terms of features, specifications, and cost efficiency. I am a professional indoor farmer and used both the lights for growing plants. I find LED farming lights comparatively better energy efficient & cost effective than HID lights. They work really great and are highly energy-efficient, possess low-electromagnetic radiation, occupy little space, have a longer lifespan, and run at low-temperature. What more could one ask for? I sourced my LED farming lights from SeniorLED on the recommendation of my ex-office employee who is also an indoor farmer. Keep uploading awesome content. You've earned a subscriber.
Real life experience tells a different story for me so far. It always convinces me on paper. Juries still out. Personally I've been using both together. Seems like my plants have been getting stressed from my 280watt led white light. I've turned mine down..hmm Decades experience still a ? For me..
Ain't it he truth in that these lights are going to be sold like iphones with incremental improvements and extras every year. One day maybe we will be able to go from seed to harvest in 3 days! That was a very informative presentation. It truly is amazing how durable LED's are. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make them upgradeable with new and improved LED tech of the future just slapped in with a screw. Peace out again excellent job.
The problem I see with LED is PAR maintenance on most fixtures falls below 95% after 5-6K hours, and below 90% at 10K hours. Disposable fixtures are well and good if they're cheap, but at $1200-$2000 US to light a 4X4' grid is anything but economical. Eric, I also wanted to mention that most indoor grows ARE planar, we go to some effort to make the top of the canopy flat and level, and reduce or eliminate branches, budsites and foliage beneath the top of the canopy. SOG and SCROG growers know this is the most efficient way to use horizontal light fixtures, no commercial growers I know grow large Christmas-tree shaped plants, the extensive veg time is cost prohibitive. Most of the ROI calculations are made by LED manufacturers, so they make claims like "1000W DE HPS lights only put out 960umols" (cough cough Fluence) and fail to account for the increased dehumidification needed due to the lack of infrared. They all assume everyone uses air conditioning, and that a new DE HPS fixture is $500, instead of $240. They can put out as much as 4400umols at 30 inches from the canopy at the 1000W setting with a deep reflector, but of course that's an obscene amount of PAR. Using real-world numbers, my ROI for an LED retrofit is 7 years, about 2 years after I'd throw the panels away for their PAR loss. Once quality lights are in the $300 range they'll be a better bargain, but until that day I'll keep changing my DE HPS bulbs and reflectors annually.
Lighting engineers like Kevin at Black Dog, Julia at BIOS, Will at DEHD and a couple LED designers in China. I'm not selling anything, just a grower. Feel free to ask about PAR maintenance, you don't have to take my word for it, I really don't care if you don't though. The shills these days are companies like Fluence who outright lie about their output, but hey, it's just money right?
Meh. He doesn't work there any more. He is talking completely about results from building commercial scale grow rooms and the new specifications achieved in the last year due to new hardware available.
Shango Los respectfully There is California light works all over his PowerPoint. Everyone claims the science is on their side. And most claim they have results that prove it. Can everyone be right? I think so to a degree. It’s kind of like we’ve learned a new trick, When we have Chlorophyll receptors A and B and then claimed the science supports a particular spectrographThat satisfies those Chlorophyll receptors. And the latest fad is the deep and far red’s and regurgitating old science when it comes to the Emerson affect. And so on and so on, plants can survive under many different lighting conditions. The truth is we are still learning as industry. Fact is the success of many commercial grows depends on experience knowledge a good grower Who takes into account all aspects not just lighting along.
Hi! I hear what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense. As you are saying, we are still learning as an industry and this preso by Eric seems to hold a lot of water to me as he shares his new data. That said, if you actually did watch the video, your opinion would certainly hold more weight than mine because I am new to studying lights. What I do know is dismissing Eric out of hand as a Cal Lights shill is inaccurate. Eric clearly loves and believes in LED as a research scientist and is sharing his passion and insight in the video. I totally see ground to disagree with him, but to discount him simply because of where he used to work seems to miss the bigger point that he has incredible depth on the issue and deserves to be considered on the merits of those positions instead of discounted for his old job.
braf zachland I am in a relatively cold climate, we use chillers for hydro occasionally in summer and run at night if it’s warmer than average and I have never heard of AC ever being used. HPS actually really helps out with the extra radiated heat and prohibition means plant count is strict, I (would if it were legal 😇) use vertical HPS 600w lamps without any reflectors and grow large trees by using the checker board layout. I can hit 500g per 600w of hi grade not incl trim or popcorn this makes HPS indespensible to me. I use some MH to reduce stretch in bloom up to 50% mh/HPS. In our store I run some LEDs and the tomatoes etc we display grow like crazy and produce more fruit per kWh than HPS but the canopy is horizontal like scrog. I have yet to see a LED that would suit tree grows as they all shine down from above in panel form. I’m ready for more grams per watt but the fixtures don’t suit low plant count or prohibition jurisdictions. In Ireland they value per plant not per square meter or per watt so a clone is worth a seven foot tree. €800. More than €15,000 and you are into mandatory ten year sentence, it’s crazy. Bring on some innovative panels and vertical LED designs. I really like the shango los podcast/ vlog and I was interested by yr cynical take. Do you reckon this guy is still on the calightwks company payroll?
@@darwin5763 Prior to this presentation I worked for Cali Lightworks. I didnm't have time to remove the logos etc.. on every page. But while the name is there, I don't think I heralded them as the only solution or even the best in every application. I am currently an independent consultant now with my company EDT, and it does give me a more product agnostic position, but I still consult Cali Lightworks and so their products are still based on my research in part, so yes I will recommend them if they have the best solution for the application. Thanks for the feedback! PS I think the Emerson effect is just a fancy name for the Shade Stretch Response.
His line "unless your extracting quality is going to become more and more important" This shows you still have alot to learn about cannabis. Full melt bubble sells for 100 a gram in alot of places, you can NOT make full melt hash out of shit cannabis!
The ability of LEDS to control and modify spectrum gives you MORE flexibility is focusing plant energy into pure yield (flower matter and resin) or quality (Resin density, terpines etc.) or whatever. While yield between HID and LED has been debated for some time, the quality advantages of LED are well excepted. I thought that was obvious. I'm sorry for any confusion.
Really appreciate the education however he seems to be trying to sell (LED) more than edifying. Whenever I hear a human saying that some particular spectrum of the sun is not useful or efficient to a certain plant or that a plant does not or cannot efficiently use a certain spectrum, that’s when you lose me.
HPS has no UV whatsoever. Can you point me to a brand that does? I have come across folks using reptile type fluoro tubes to add uva and uvb in late bloom, the wattage is negligible. I am into hydro retail and would love to know about hps with UV.
All of what this guy says is true. But the thing not addressed is plant adaptability and acclimatisation to its environment.
So a cutivar that has been bred under HID may not give you the result you want or expect under LED. Because it has adapted to THAT (HID) environment. So a particular taste ,flavour, terpine & cannibinoid profile will alter dramatically with LED. And if that (HID) has created a signature cultivar. It may loose that profile signature unless you re- select.
Aside from this YES its the death of HID in horticulture. The wheel might still be spinning but the hamster is stone cold dead.
What a DOPE presentation! Thanks for sharing!
Nothing like waking up to a Shaping Fire podcast.
very informative. You doing what you do to get all of us educated is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Thank you very much for this explanation!
really great info thanks
Thanks for sharing Shango!
Wow so awesome, by far the most informative video on lighting I have seen. Great job.
Shango you rule! Thanks for bringing me along! ✌️😎👍
Thanks for posting this amazing video. Since both LEDs and HIDs are being used for indoor farming, LED vs HID for plant growing become a debatable topic in terms of features, specifications, and cost efficiency. I am a professional indoor farmer and used both the lights for growing plants. I find LED farming lights comparatively better energy efficient & cost effective than HID lights. They work really great and are highly energy-efficient, possess low-electromagnetic radiation, occupy little space, have a longer lifespan, and run at low-temperature. What more could one ask for? I sourced my LED farming lights from SeniorLED on the recommendation of my ex-office employee who is also an indoor farmer. Keep uploading awesome content. You've earned a subscriber.
wow, thanks Chris!
One of the best videos on the topic., Shango, you never disappoint, bro.
Thank you!!
wow, i need a pen and paper, thank you for the video
Real life experience tells a different story for me so far. It always convinces me on paper. Juries still out. Personally I've been using both together. Seems like my plants have been getting stressed from my 280watt led white light. I've turned mine down..hmm
Decades experience still a ? For me..
Now which one to not break the bank, these things are very expensive.
V A build your own! Or buy a hlg product you won’t go wrong with either
Holland star 1000WLED from amazon. 4 will rock a 5x5 tent
So what’s the stand of today versus this debate? Looking to get some new lights?
Ain't it he truth in that these lights are going to be sold like iphones with incremental improvements and extras every year. One day maybe we will be able to go from seed to harvest in 3 days! That was a very informative presentation. It truly is amazing how durable LED's are. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make them upgradeable with new and improved LED tech of the future just slapped in with a screw. Peace out again excellent job.
The problem I see with LED is PAR maintenance on most fixtures falls below 95% after 5-6K hours, and below 90% at 10K hours. Disposable fixtures are well and good if they're cheap, but at $1200-$2000 US to light a 4X4' grid is anything but economical.
Eric, I also wanted to mention that most indoor grows ARE planar, we go to some effort to make the top of the canopy flat and level, and reduce or eliminate branches, budsites and foliage beneath the top of the canopy. SOG and SCROG growers know this is the most efficient way to use horizontal light fixtures, no commercial growers I know grow large Christmas-tree shaped plants, the extensive veg time is cost prohibitive.
Most of the ROI calculations are made by LED manufacturers, so they make claims like "1000W DE HPS lights only put out 960umols" (cough cough Fluence) and fail to account for the increased dehumidification needed due to the lack of infrared. They all assume everyone uses air conditioning, and that a new DE HPS fixture is $500, instead of $240.
They can put out as much as 4400umols at 30 inches from the canopy at the 1000W setting with a deep reflector, but of course that's an obscene amount of PAR.
Using real-world numbers, my ROI for an LED retrofit is 7 years, about 2 years after I'd throw the panels away for their PAR loss. Once quality lights are in the $300 range they'll be a better bargain, but until that day I'll keep changing my DE HPS bulbs and reflectors annually.
Lighting engineers like Kevin at Black Dog, Julia at BIOS, Will at DEHD and a couple LED designers in China. I'm not selling anything, just a grower. Feel free to ask about PAR maintenance, you don't have to take my word for it, I really don't care if you don't though. The shills these days are companies like Fluence who outright lie about their output, but hey, it's just money right?
Don’t kid yourself this is a California light works commercial. Real results is what counts.
Meh. He doesn't work there any more. He is talking completely about results from building commercial scale grow rooms and the new specifications achieved in the last year due to new hardware available.
Shango Los respectfully There is California light works all over his PowerPoint. Everyone claims the science is on their side. And most claim they have results that prove it. Can everyone be right? I think so to a degree. It’s kind of like we’ve learned a new trick, When we have Chlorophyll receptors A and B and then claimed the science supports a particular spectrographThat satisfies those Chlorophyll receptors. And the latest fad is the deep and far red’s and regurgitating old science when it comes to the Emerson affect. And so on and so on, plants can survive under many different lighting conditions. The truth is we are still learning as industry. Fact is the success of many commercial grows depends on experience knowledge a good grower Who takes into account all aspects not just lighting along.
Hi! I hear what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense. As you are saying, we are still learning as an industry and this preso by Eric seems to hold a lot of water to me as he shares his new data. That said, if you actually did watch the video, your opinion would certainly hold more weight than mine because I am new to studying lights. What I do know is dismissing Eric out of hand as a Cal Lights shill is inaccurate. Eric clearly loves and believes in LED as a research scientist and is sharing his passion and insight in the video. I totally see ground to disagree with him, but to discount him simply because of where he used to work seems to miss the bigger point that he has incredible depth on the issue and deserves to be considered on the merits of those positions instead of discounted for his old job.
braf zachland I am in a relatively cold climate, we use chillers for hydro occasionally in summer and run at night if it’s warmer than average and I have never heard of AC ever being used. HPS actually really helps out with the extra radiated heat and prohibition means plant count is strict, I (would if it were legal 😇) use vertical HPS 600w lamps without any reflectors and grow large trees by using the checker board layout. I can hit 500g per 600w of hi grade not incl trim or popcorn this makes HPS indespensible to me. I use some MH to reduce stretch in bloom up to 50% mh/HPS. In our store I run some LEDs and the tomatoes etc we display grow like crazy and produce more fruit per kWh than HPS but the canopy is horizontal like scrog. I have yet to see a LED that would suit tree grows as they all shine down from above in panel form.
I’m ready for more grams per watt but the fixtures don’t suit low plant count or prohibition jurisdictions. In Ireland they value per plant not per square meter or per watt so a clone is worth a seven foot tree. €800. More than €15,000 and you are into mandatory ten year sentence, it’s crazy.
Bring on some innovative panels and vertical LED designs.
I really like the shango los podcast/ vlog and I was interested by yr cynical take. Do you reckon this guy is still on the calightwks company payroll?
@@darwin5763 Prior to this presentation I worked for Cali Lightworks. I didnm't have time to remove the logos etc.. on every page. But while the name is there, I don't think I heralded them as the only solution or even the best in every application. I am currently an independent consultant now with my company EDT, and it does give me a more product agnostic position, but I still consult Cali Lightworks and so their products are still based on my research in part, so yes I will recommend them if they have the best solution for the application. Thanks for the feedback! PS I think the Emerson effect is just a fancy name for the Shade Stretch Response.
Cmh considered hid?
Yes, MH, CMH (just an improved MH lamp design) , HPS, & LPS
His line "unless your extracting quality is going to become more and more important" This shows you still have alot to learn about cannabis. Full melt bubble sells for 100 a gram in alot of places, you can NOT make full melt hash out of shit cannabis!
The ability of LEDS to control and modify spectrum gives you MORE flexibility is focusing plant energy into pure yield (flower matter and resin) or quality (Resin density, terpines etc.) or whatever. While yield between HID and LED has been debated for some time, the quality advantages of LED are well excepted. I thought that was obvious. I'm sorry for any confusion.
Cheers again man, another epic video!! Death to HID!
👍 LED 👍
Really appreciate the education however he seems to be trying to sell (LED) more than edifying. Whenever I hear a human saying that some particular spectrum of the sun is not useful or efficient to a certain plant or that a plant does not or cannot efficiently use a certain spectrum, that’s when you lose me.
leds dont have uv
unless you want them to. Plenty of UV chips
Led uv spectrum is limited, led have only uva, mostly 380-400nm
HPS has no UV whatsoever. Can you point me to a brand that does? I have come across folks using reptile type fluoro tubes to add uva and uvb in late bloom, the wattage is negligible. I am into hydro retail and would love to know about hps with UV.
Does any HPS lamp produce UV at all? Genuine question.
@@pedclarkemobile mh cmh and plasma produce uv