Awesome video! It's worth noting that the journey from PIE *ǵneh₃- to Latin gnoscere to noscere is paralleled by the English developed of *ǵneh₃- to "know" with the /k/ preserved in spelling but not pronunciation.
English has another cognate of *ǵneh₃- which preserves the initial /k/ sound thanks to the PIE nasal infix affecting the syllabic structure of the word in Pre-Germanic development; can.
My old Latin teacher pronounced words like "magnus" as "mangnus", and this was 40 years ago, so it was a LOT closer to ancient Roman times than now. So he probably knew what he was talking about.
Thanks! I used to be more tyrannical with my prescriptions. Now I just make recommendations, but I prefer a “live and let live” policy. Especially if people are sincere and genuine.
Magnus is a personal name in the Scandinavian countries. I have always wondered why we pronounce it as ”mang-nus”, the ”ng-n”. This was informative. Thanks!
I don't think we've inherited the pronunciation from classical Latin if that's what you mean. "Lugn" in Swedish, which means calm, is also pronounced "lungn".
@@InlanningYes. But these are the current set pronunciations. I have no idea how the pronunciation evolved. But it shows that people found it easier to pronounce it ”ng-n” - just like some Romans did.
The question is: which ecclesiatical Latin? What he calls "ecclesiastical Latin", is Italian Latin. In other countries, the Latin pronunciation is different.
@@Nikioko the so called ecclesiastical pronunciation is the same across the world, there can be different accents depending on the first language of the speaker but the pronunciation is the same
@@albuso1974 No, it is not. In Italian Latin, for example excelsis is pronounced "ek-tshel-sis", in German Latin "eks-tsel-zis". "Agnus" is pronounced "an-yus" in Italian and "ang-nus" in German Latin. A c before e and i is "tsh" in Italian and "ts" in German Latin. Likewise, a g before e and i is pronounced "dj" in Italian Latin, but always "g" in German Latin, like in Classical Latin. Also, the vowels are different. And that are only the main differences, which are not just accents of the speaker, but completely different pronunciations.
@@Nikioko very minor differences and you can spot the same or similar peculiarity even if a German speaks classical Latin so your question could be turned in "which classical Latin?".... there are no native Latin speakers.
@@albuso1974 These diferences are not smaller than between Italian and Classical Latin. And as you ask "which Classical Latin?": the one which was spoken around 1 AD and in which c was always pronounced as k and v as w. The one which is very similar to Renaissance Latin. I am not talking about Vulgar Latin.
Fun fact: romanian words that might've had the ,,gn" at the beginning are still said somewhat diferently,for exemple the n in words ,,Nil"(nile) are little different from the ones in words like ,,naștere"(birth) the latter is more weak so to say
@@aroma13 Ah, I'm sorry, I thought you meant the opposite. I am not sure that an archaic form like gnāscere would be reflected in Romanian because it is so old that it would probably be extinct before Trajan's time. But how is the n in naștere different?
Well in Sanskrit the "gn" sound have a different letter associated with it. That's very close to Sanskrit pronounciation of word "Gnānah"(knowledge). Were modern Indo Aryan language pronounce as "Jnāna", but the archaic Sanskrit pronounciation is more preserved in Dravidian languages where they still say "Gnāna". That's very informative Luke and thanks for the video.
Well, that's not the case. The Sanskrit pronunciation has an affricate, which is the result of satemization, as the root it comes from is *ǵneh₃-, with a palatal velar. That's why it's usually transcribed "jñānam" (with /m/ by the way, as it's a neuter noun). I don't know anything about Dravidian languages, but the original pronunciation is not a plosive or a nasal, at least not since PIE times.
@@user-un7gp4bl2l i think it's probably that j before ñ wasn't pronounced as an affricate but rather a palatal stop, in the same way as how "ccha" isn't pronounced with two affricates. this interpretation makes more sense with how modern indic languages pronounce jñ (gya, dna, gna, etc)
but u forgot to mention that even in old times there were discussions how the hell the JN should be pronounced, since as written is really not very easy or comfortable to do, with a released fricative between the stop and the N ... so, that doesnt tell us anything how in a different language which i like to use as comparision was something pronounced, sadly. but, sanskrit scholars at least attest the nasally released T's luke is talkin about in venitne
I've heard "hangnail" mentioned so often now that I've finally looked in up in a dictionary. Little did I know there was a word for "a bit of skin hanging loose at the side or root of a fingernail" (Merriam-Webster).
Fascinating lectio Luke In Lyceum, we used to use the mediaeval prononciation, so it would have been " ñeus " normally, but our teacher told us that in beginning of the words, GN didn't have to be pronounced " ñ ", rather G should be pronounced like a G but keeping the larynx closed witht he tongue, sort of a muted G, and the N sound should follow with continuity (not interrupting the muted G sound), so in fact, I think this is very close, if not the same, to the prononciation that you mention here as classical. In fact, when doing history lessons, the italian prononciation "Gneo" started to sound very funny to my ears after having learned the other prononciation from my Latin teacher
Funny enough, in Sweden we would say Magnus (which is a normal first name for us) "maŋnus" :) We also have other words where the combination gn would become "ŋn" :) languages are so much fun! :)
Great video! I loved that little section of Ancient Rome below the street level when I visited a couple years ago. Fun fact for anyone who hasn't been -- there is now a cat sanctuary for strays that operates out of the ruins. At least in the summer, you can see cats lounging around in the ruins where Caesar was assassinated!
I now realize verbs like gnoscere are so basic to all European (at least the ones I know) that the similarity is obvious. In Romance languages the verb becomes Conocer, conaître and conoscere. In Germanic languages we have know and kennen.
@Gee Boom In Albanian this verb is "njoh", pronounced as "gnoh" (Italian and French pronunciation of gn). I think this verb in Albanian comes from Latin "gnoscere". Albanian was heavily influenced by Latin of Augustus era, but the phonology was adapted to the local language.
Using an older orthography for a word or name made me think of two examples in English. We use "oz." as an abbreviation for ounce, and "lb." for the abbreviation for pound (weight).
The little Latin I learned was in the studies ethimology and toponomy. I tended to pronounce the V as a U only in de middle of the word, and the C as in portuguese and before E or I doesn't come easy as a K, as for the GN I may pronounde the G too strong. Thanks to you I'm deviating from the mix of eclesiastic/portuguese pronountiation and trying to read Latin as Classical Latin would be spoken, one sound at a time.
It's worth noting too that this happened to all plosives before nasals, as in "suepnos" > "suemnos" (compare Greek "húpnos", "sleep") or "atnos" > "annos" (compare Gothic "aþns", "year"). The spelling difference is due to the fact that they didn't have a separate letter to reliably represent [ŋ].
@@guillermorivas7819 Yes, it's a neat little coincidence. What I haven't been able to find a convincing answer for is why some of those /e/ become /o/ and others stay, as in "bonus" and "bene", or "bellus", which is the diminutive of "bonus" (another neat thing is how Spanish developed a new diminutive "bonito" with the same meaning). If you happen to know anything about that please let me know. Another nice thing which is completely irrelevant is how the loss of /w/ in words like "somnus" is almost the same as the loss of /w/ in English words like "so" or "sword".
@@user-un7gp4bl2l , The "ita/ito" diminutive apparently already existed in Latin. Not sure whether it was classical, vulgar or late latin though. With that being said, Latin does have "bonitās/bonitātis" which derived from bonus.
@@guillermorivas7819 What I meant is that "bonito" was derived in Spanish, not the particular morphemes. I meant to ask whether you happen to know anything about the vowel change in Old Latin, not about "bonito".
Very interesting topic! When I began learning Latin at secondary school, we were just taught to pronounce everything as it was written, which was okay in many cases as my native tongue (Flemish Dutch) naturally has many similar sounds, but a lot of the more subtle pronunciations like this one would go over our heads. I feel like pronunciation is just as important as grammar and vocab in learning/studying a language. Great video! I can't imagine the effort it must've took to talk in between all the noise.
As someone who is currently doing her teacher's degree for Latin (and Greek) in Flanders, I can tell you that pronunciation has become more important and the classical pronunciation is now explicitly in the curriculum. Teachers are also expected to read Latin out loud as much as possible, to demonstrate the correct pronunciation and stress accent. Like you, the pronunciation I learned in secondary school was certainly not bad, but I only learned about "gn" in my Latin linguistics classes in uni. And even in uni, many of the finer details were never mentioned and I can only assume even my professors don't know them, like the unreleased plosives. Which is why I appreciate it all the more that I can improve and practise my pronunciation online, so I will be able to teach it correctly to my students.
_Grātiās_. As a Portuguese speaker I struggle with the English 'gn' sound, and I tend to not only release coda occlusives, but even add an epenthetic /i/ and palatalise the consonant. Years of linguistic training have made me quite confortable with the unreleased consonant, though, so I'm glad it's a solid option. I like to pronounce every single initial 'gn' though: even in _gnāscor._
It is possible that in early Latin, many of the words with the gn combination were of Greek origin.. gnosis (Γνώσις), Cognosco (Γιγνώσκω) and because those words were written with a Gamma (Γάμμα) which may have been difficult for Romans to pronounce, the G was silenced...even in Greek, the Gamma often times is not clearly discernible. Also, the name Gnaeus could be cognate with the Greek word Γενναίος (Gennaios)which means being of noble birth and descent. Just a thought from a curious Greek. Keep up the good work!
please always leave in some outtakes, I am wheezing over here, the editing in that very last moment oh my god. and of course, thank you for another great video, your channel(s) have inspired me to dive back into latin, having studied it in high school a lifetime ago, and although I did enjoy it at the time and had a great teacher, we were never taught classical pronunciation and we could even get away with... (deep breath)... ignoring phonemic vowel length. never again though :)
Loved seeing the outtakes! You make it look all so seamless as if you did it in one take in your final edits, so it was nice to see a reminder of the process that goes on behind the scenes, all the stopping and starting (which would have driven me mad, by the way - so props to you for having kept going!) The outtakes also reminded me why I hated Rome when I lived there. Just like London, it's too damn noisy for my liking!
Thank you for leaving the outtakes. I miss Rome painfully. Very homesick. Hearing those sounds I can feel the sun, the wind and the life. I will return, but meanwhile this is like having teleported for a bit. Thank you.
Great video as always! I admire your ability to focus completely on the camera, I would have been distracted by the people all around! As a French speaker, I'm wondering if our nasal sounds are a direct development from Classical Latin's nasal sounds, or if they're unrelated? The "um" endings for example do sound similar to our words like "pont" or "son", I also remember you mentionning similar nasalisation in Barbarians, where a word like "consenguitur" (I believe what that word was" had a nasal sound on the "con"
Others suspect 'GNAIUS', 'CNAIUS', or 'GNAEUS' is Latin-speakers' best at trying to say the Etruscan male name 'CNEWE'. Etruscan was truly weird by Roman standards as well as by ours.
I think the Theatre of Pompey where JC was assassinated is a bit further away from Largo di Torre Argentina, between Via di Grotta Pinta and Via dei Chiavari, where its outline is still preserved in the street lines 😊
@@polyMATHY_Luke GN is in general pronounced ng-n in Swedish, for example in ugn, lugn, välsigna, ragnarök, digna etc. Not word-initially: gnosticism is pronounced g-n. Guessing the same happens in Norwegian...?
It has always seemed a weird cluster to me. Gnosco for example, never knew the correct way to start a word with it. In Greek, while γγ is read like g, many compound words that have the γγ letters, like έγγραφο (script) or εγγραφή (subscription) are read like that "hangnail" sound.
The pronunciation and the explanation makes a lot of sense in Spanish as well, a lot of those words that you talked about changed into two n, nn instead of the gn of Latin and Italian, later when the print machine was invented it changed in Spanish to ñ that means one n on top of the other n to save space. And that word cognoscere in Portuguese makes the sound of ñ in the place of the gn in conheçer, in portugues is done with nh is nice
Thank you for this great explanation and for the views of Largo Argentina. More videos from ancient settings please! Also very interesting to note how the sounds K and hard G are so often used interchangeably in different accents, especially after « n » in certain British and German accents. Thank you also for the origins of the word that explains the German word « Gnade » !
Have you already done or will you do a handbook + audiobook on Latin pronunciation? I think all the knowledge you've accumulated over the years perfecting your Latin pronunciation deserves to be compiled into a handy little tome we can all refer to from time to time in our personal libraries amongst our Loebs!
Critias77 makes a very interesting point and I never thought about that K in "know" as a cognate of GN. The praenomen Gnaeus is also found in epigraphy as both Gaius and Caius. I haven't pondered this since I was an altar boy in my teens and got into trouble with the priest for pronouncing my Missal Latin as Cicero (KEEKeroh) would have. I hated the CH sound of C and other ecclesiastical habits. However the N in Gnaeus is silent and dropped in the more frequent GAIUS where the G is hard velar and also in CAIUS. It makes me wonder about the pronunciation of GN in COGNITO ergo sum. Of course my Latin studies were over 70 years ago so I look forward to comments.
Interesting to see Ubisoft's Theatre of Pompey setpiece from AC:Origins making its way into educational videos. It was so well done that it deserves it too.
The Spanish language still retains the pronunciation of "gn" like that of Classical Latin. The word magno exists in Spanish but it is hardly used but it can be used -- especially in historical contexts. There are other words in Spanish like "pugno, pugnante, pugnaz" but these are learned words derived/pronounced exactly like in Classical Latin. The word "magnitud" is used commonly amongst others. In Sardinian it has evolved into "nn" (mannu) rather than magnus.
French plays with both too, but unlike Spanish, the spelling doesn't change according to the pronunciation. We have "diag-nos-tic" and "mag-net", but "o-ignon" and "mon-ta-gne". We also have some words that have both pronunciations like "mag-né-tique /ma-gné-tique" and "in-cog-ni-to / in-co-gni-to (actually, these ones aren't supposed to have the "ñ" sound, but since people tend to pronounce them like that nowadays they are accepted). Back in the days, the written difference was "gn" = gn sound and "ign" = ñ sound, but people began to mix trigrams with diphtongues (po-ignet v.s. poi-gnet).
@@michelefrau6072 , , Indeed. Sardinian retains the closest pronunciation to classical latin. Spanish does it best to retain some words with the classical pronunciation. The following are common words that retain the "gn" pronunciation: Repugnante Signo Resignar Resignacion Significar Significante Significado Magnitud Diagnosticar Diagnosis Etc.
Spanish words with gn like you mention are taken directly from literary Latin during or after the Renaissance. They don’t represent a natural evolution, also true of their English equivalents. But they are interesting.
6:12 this reminds me of spanish with its ocasional archaic spelling, but what I find weird is that both ñ and gn sounds exist, ñ=/nj/ and gn is just gn.
This was very interesting, not too different from what I assumed the pronunciation would be. The most natural pronunciation for me would be /gn/ word initially and /ŋn/ word medially and finally, same pattern as my dialect of Norwegian.
I'm glad that my initial intuition (the unreleased consonant) seems consistent. I'm a spanish speaker and releasing the g sounds more like "Macnus" to me, which sounds very... anglo-speaking? With the exception of the "r" I feel our consonants (specially in spanish) are much softer.
You are so smart and handsome, I could listen to you for for hours geeking about "dead languages". I'll definitely need to take notes to understand this better. I do stick with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, but it's funny because in some cases when sung I shift from one to other depending on which sound I found more melodic in the specific case.
Languages have a tendency to simplify pronoucniations. Gnaivos is the old spelling. I would assume that the -os slowly turned to -us, making the -vus soudn rather the same so it lost the v eventually. ai to ae... and lastly the dropping of the g because it probably felt sorta botehrsome to the new phonology of the changing latin. thus: Gnaivos -> Gnaivus -> Gnaius and eventually -> Naeus. The G probably was lost last as the name still had it. We see similar things in assimilations. ad + ferre -> afferre. Latin liked its fluent pronounciations, so i would assume that is also a driving factor here, if something seems bothering the (new) pronounciation over time. But that is just how i would deduct it.. No idea if it actually happened like that.
I actually don't agree by a long margin. There are languages whose pronunciations became very odd and unfamiliar from the prospective of other languages. For example, take polish zamknac which is pronounced / zamk'nonch / this same words had vowels in between that just disappeared, I wouldn't say that this pronunciation is easier than the one with vowels in between. I don't think the theory that languages have a sort of tendency to become easier. Another example would be the latin way of making adverbs with was -e, that became -mente in the majority of romance languages, making something easy like ' lente '(lat. and sardinian actually) now ' lentamente '(italian and french is very similar), we would all agree that lente was the quickef and easier to remember option
@@viperking6573 It is. Just because you are used to clear vowels, doesn't mean everyone is. The answer is Phonology. Every language and all speakers have the set of phonological rules they are accustomed to pronounce. These rules shift over time without people noticing doing it. That pronounciation can be easier for people thatare used to these things. That is why in japanese for example you also get a final vowel on loanwords that end wit ha consonant, because teh Syllable structure is somethign along CV (dunno if it actually is but it will suffice), meaning a syllable will end with a vowel. There are many reasons for shifts. As with different endings: Maybe it was just something to make yourself understood easier? But usually people don't like beating around the bush. That is why they want flow of information quick and efficiently and in a way that the othe knows exactly what he means. There is also the matter of dialects. Latin too will have had local dialects where certain words were more preferred than in other areas. While the roman empire was a very advanced plkace, it too lacked the constant flow of linguistic information necessary to actually melt together the whole place into one dialect. That is also why we had vulgar latin. And that kind of latin would usually in the end influence the liturgical language of that area.
@@wasweiich9991 Ok now I agree. I thought you meant that every language had one type of phonological rules. This thing is called in a certain way in linguistics I believe. Anyway now I understand your answer! My bad
It's also interesting that many latin words that contain gn have a intervocalic ng or a k initially in germanic, e.g. ign-is - ing-waz gno-sc-e-re - cu-n-a-n magn-us - manag-az
@@polyMATHY_Luke Yes, I am 😊 My name is /anˈtoŋ ʃuˈiθ/ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_phonology?wprov=sfla1 A link to the phonetic dictionary: ilg.usc.es/pronuncia/?pq=&q=unha&l=1&c%5B%5D=0
That happens in Attic Greek too, in words like γίγνομαι, γιγνώσκω. We know that because the letter gamma (γ) is used to indicate the velar nasal before velar stops κ,γ,χ,ξ (k,g,ch,x), like συν+χαίρω=συγχαίρω. Such use of the letter gamma wouldn't make sense unless [g] was already pronounced as [ŋ] when preceding a nasal, as in γίγνομαι and γιγνώσκω.
Magister Luke: in spanish we conserve this sound, try to pronounce magnífico multiple times and you will hear it, also in writing at initial position like in gnóstico, gnosticismo (gnostic, gnosticism), it was lost in Old Spanish but people still pronounce it specially in the Spanish colonies so it was reintroduced dīgnum > dino > digno
@@polyMATHY_Luke even we have words of the same origin with different evolution in pairs: pugnum: puño (fist) vs pugna (fight also legal fight in a legal court), or cognoscere: conocer (to know) vs cognitivo (cognitive)
I really like your materiel, and since we are both Army Aviators, lifetime subscription for me.....(Two tours in Nam as a Warrant Officer.) BTW: Learned better German in the Army, as it was our second language....Raised as a Catholic with Nuns teaching Latin, just like Monty Python...
@@polyMATHY_Luke OH-23D & G, in which flying I received the DFC, (1967) UH-1D, AH-1, UH-1C, CH-21, CH-37, CH-47, CH-54, among others. Also fixed wing; U-5, Beech Model 12, and others....I even flew the Blackhawk in CT when I lived there.....It fixed all the problems of the Huey, and then some of its own!
I'm in no way a linguist but I am a native speaker of nuorese Sardinian. The latin word "magnus" is still present in my dialect as "mannu" and the first n is exactly the same as the one you are describing for the latin gn sound. I know that Sardinian is pretty conservative with respect to latin (and some pre-latin words too, which is extreme imho), I don't know what precisely carried on from Latin as I'm not a speaker of it, but the idea Magnus > Mannu Makes a lot of sense with this idea of pronunciation. I'd love to see a video of yours about Sardinian and its evolution from Latin, it would clear up a lot of things
I really do admire you speaking so many languages and especially I have a big love for your Latin. I do not understand it, because I can barely speak French of all the roman languages and that's all. I am still loving to hear it. It sounds so...right! 🙂 Kaiser=Caesar...I love it!
Ecclesiastical Pronunciation is only taught in Italian schools. The Classical pronunciation is used universally outside of Italy except in Catholic environments
Traditionalism. Idiotic traditionalism. Education has been a political battlefield (always and everywhere, but in particular in 50s to 80s Italy) and the classical side of things has always been the least likely to change.
I am an Italian student and I study latin at school, I believe that classical pronunciation is not taught because students, quite frankly, often don't like the subject. Not everyone appreciates latin and teaching a completely new pronunciation would only make it difficult for those who are already struggling to study and learn the language. Trust me, I can tell, I have many classmates who hate latin.
6:13 Wait, so "gn" can be pronounced as "gn" as in "magnificent", or it can be pronounced backwards as "ng" in "king"? Sort of reminds me of Japanese, where you may hear in the animated cartoon the characters (such as Noguchi in Chibi Maruko Chan) pronouncing "g" as "ng", for example, turning the particle "ga" into "nga". But here in Latin, "gn" is not "ngn", but just "ng". So Magnus is Mangnus... that sounds silly to me, but so does every foreign language before one gets used to it.
It's a common form of lenition where the velar plosive assimilates to the nasal following it to become a velar nasal. You can see such a change in other languages like Korean, or hangukmal (pronounced as hangungmal)
By coincidence I've been trying to get my family to change the pronunciation of banana to baana (the spanish n-tilde) or bagnana. Because it's funny. Any chance that banana was known to the romans?
It's interesting that the modern romance languages that retain this classical pronunciation and spelling of GN aren't necessary close in geographical distribution. For example, romanian, catalan and spanish seen to agree on this, but portuguese not (at least with initial gn) despite being in the iberian peninsula, where most languages preserve it.
The consonants in portuguese like in the word IGNORANTE (ignorāns) is very understandable. We use to say each consonant very clearly. At least in the brazilian accent. We have 4 syllables on this word: IG-NO-RAN-TE.
@@user-un7gp4bl2l digno, indigno, Ignorar, magnata, maligno, Agnaldo, pugnar, repugar, signo, insignia, magnésio, estagnar, benigno, magnífico, impregnar, consignar, cognitivo, cognescer, significar, significado, magnificar, magnético, lignificar, ignorância, insignificante, mogno, magno, magna. Each of those words are portuguese and we pronouce G N separately.
We also have it in spanish: " ñ " = gn . The letter "ñ" is a medieval creation for an old sound (that was (is) common at least in France, Italy and Spain)
The letter "ñ" originally was the graphic simplification of a "n" plus another "n" (-nn-). The second "n" is little, over the greater one. It was used in Italy too. This signifies that, the present pronunciation is an evolution of a precedent "nn". (Por cierto, la palabra castellana "año" viene de un precedente "anno
That makes a lot of sense, in Spanish we still have some of those Gs and we know they’re not pronounced like in the word "Gnomo", you just pronounce the n like there was no g in the word.
AE -- Note that in Spanish, AE such as in aero- or verbs like caer, is /a-e/ (ah-eh) which shades into /ai/ in rapid speech, and this is phonemically distinct from AI/AY /ai/. (The stress acute accent allows ái and aí also.) -- And at least by when the Latin alphabet was used for Anglo-Saxon / Old English and later other Germanic languages, the AE ligature Æ was /æ/ as in cat, apple, ash (æsc), with a long and a short version, which led to long and short A in Modern English. (So AE in Latin at that post-classical period could have been /æ/ or /æi/, varying, to be borrowed as the spelling in Old English and others. Just an idea; I don't know if it's supported in theories about how Latin developed the transition of AE to E.
Ahahaha, Luke, you're residing in Italy compleltely, hope you're not homesick lelel btw i share your passion for languages, finally a dude with such a passion for languages makes me feel ultra comfortable with ya, sar! (bro ass slap)
Even after the explanation, it's still difficult for me to pronounce "Magnus" in a classical pronunciation without dropping to my native Spanish "Ñ", so I end up saying "Mañus".
Good Video 👏👏👏 Dear Polymathy it would be very interesting in the future to see videos in which you teach some words in Latin or Ancient Greek to approach these beautiful languages, maybe those words we use everyday and we dont know the origin 😍
I have an entire channel dedicated to teaching Latin and Ancient Greek ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45Siw2bcwgjIj8FgQoJuGTM70j ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45Six4gYLaBrTAIvfjXWKJ1EkN
Interestingly the sarcophagus of Scipio seems to contain both instances: Cornelius Lucius Scipio Gnaivod Patre Prognatus, with the old ablative ending too.
Awesome video! It's worth noting that the journey from PIE *ǵneh₃- to Latin gnoscere to noscere is paralleled by the English developed of *ǵneh₃- to "know" with the /k/ preserved in spelling but not pronunciation.
Thanks! And great point. I’m going to post this comment to the community tab.
@Prof. Spudd зна-
English has another cognate of *ǵneh₃- which preserves the initial /k/ sound thanks to the PIE nasal infix affecting the syllabic structure of the word in Pre-Germanic development; can.
K silet in verbo anglico "know" similiter G in verbo latino gnoscere.
@Prof. Spudd Ой ё, никогда не думал про наш глагол
My old Latin teacher pronounced words like "magnus" as "mangnus", and this was 40 years ago, so it was a LOT closer to ancient Roman times than now. So he probably knew what he was talking about.
I love how relaxed you are about what pronunciation convention people use so long as it fits with rational patterns of linguistic development.
Thanks! I used to be more tyrannical with my prescriptions. Now I just make recommendations, but I prefer a “live and let live” policy. Especially if people are sincere and genuine.
Magnus is a personal name in the Scandinavian countries. I have always wondered why we pronounce it as ”mang-nus”, the ”ng-n”. This was informative. Thanks!
Quite!
I don't think we've inherited the pronunciation from classical Latin if that's what you mean. "Lugn" in Swedish, which means calm, is also pronounced "lungn".
@@InlanningYes. But these are the current set pronunciations. I have no idea how the pronunciation evolved. But it shows that people found it easier to pronounce it ”ng-n” - just like some Romans did.
@@marna_li true
In Scandinavia Magnus is actually a Latinaized version the Old Norse name Magni, Which in Danish and Norwegian has become Magne
Luke we have seen you go through the Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Sadness, Acceptance of the existence of ecclesiastical pronunciation
Hahaha if you’ve been following my videos on both channels for years, that is quite true 😂
Lol, bargaining, thanks for the good laugh
BEST COMMENT EVER! :D
I always appreciate hearing about the various differences between Classical and Ecclesiastical Latin and how they originated. Thanks Luke!
The question is: which ecclesiatical Latin? What he calls "ecclesiastical Latin", is Italian Latin. In other countries, the Latin pronunciation is different.
@@Nikioko the so called ecclesiastical pronunciation is the same across the world, there can be different accents depending on the first language of the speaker but the pronunciation is the same
@@albuso1974 No, it is not.
In Italian Latin, for example excelsis is pronounced "ek-tshel-sis", in German Latin "eks-tsel-zis". "Agnus" is pronounced "an-yus" in Italian and "ang-nus" in German Latin.
A c before e and i is "tsh" in Italian and "ts" in German Latin. Likewise, a g before e and i is pronounced "dj" in Italian Latin, but always "g" in German Latin, like in Classical Latin. Also, the vowels are different. And that are only the main differences, which are not just accents of the speaker, but completely different pronunciations.
@@Nikioko very minor differences and you can spot the same or similar peculiarity even if a German speaks classical Latin so your question could be turned in "which classical Latin?".... there are no native Latin speakers.
@@albuso1974 These diferences are not smaller than between Italian and Classical Latin. And as you ask "which Classical Latin?": the one which was spoken around 1 AD and in which c was always pronounced as k and v as w. The one which is very similar to Renaissance Latin. I am not talking about Vulgar Latin.
Fun fact: romanian words that might've had the ,,gn" at the beginning are still said somewhat diferently,for exemple the n in words ,,Nil"(nile) are little different from the ones in words like ,,naștere"(birth) the latter is more weak so to say
I presume that it is maybe a little palatalised, i.e. "y (as in 'yes')-like". But surely, the river Nile did not have gn- in latin - ?
@@troelspeterroland6998 I ment that the Nile for exemple is a word in wich the n is ,,normal"
@@aroma13 Ah, I'm sorry, I thought you meant the opposite.
I am not sure that an archaic form like gnāscere would be reflected in Romanian because it is so old that it would probably be extinct before Trajan's time. But how is the n in naștere different?
@@troelspeterroland6998 it is some what more nassal or ,,not said to completion"
@@aroma13 That is interesting. I wonder if there are more examples of this - ?
Well in Sanskrit the "gn" sound have a different letter associated with it. That's very close to Sanskrit pronounciation of word "Gnānah"(knowledge). Were modern Indo Aryan language pronounce as "Jnāna", but the archaic Sanskrit pronounciation is more preserved in Dravidian languages where they still say "Gnāna".
That's very informative Luke and thanks for the video.
Well, that's not the case. The Sanskrit pronunciation has an affricate, which is the result of satemization, as the root it comes from is *ǵneh₃-, with a palatal velar. That's why it's usually transcribed "jñānam" (with /m/ by the way, as it's a neuter noun). I don't know anything about Dravidian languages, but the original pronunciation is not a plosive or a nasal, at least not since PIE times.
@@user-un7gp4bl2l Urdu/Hindi and some other languages of Northern India say gyana instead of jnana. Maybe this is because of Persian influence?
@@user-un7gp4bl2l i think it's probably that j before ñ wasn't pronounced as an affricate but rather a palatal stop, in the same way as how "ccha" isn't pronounced with two affricates. this interpretation makes more sense with how modern indic languages pronounce jñ (gya, dna, gna, etc)
but u forgot to mention that even in old times there were discussions how the hell the JN should be pronounced, since as written is really not very easy or comfortable to do, with a released fricative between the stop and the N ... so, that doesnt tell us anything how in a different language which i like to use as comparision was something pronounced, sadly.
but, sanskrit scholars at least attest the nasally released T's luke is talkin about in venitne
@@eyeofthasky realistically i think it probably would have varied even when sanskrit was being used as anyone's native language
I've heard "hangnail" mentioned so often now that I've finally looked in up in a dictionary. Little did I know there was a word for "a bit of skin hanging loose at the side or root of a fingernail" (Merriam-Webster).
Ahahaha...this is called "arvertijèt" in my dialect...from the latin verb "revertere" ("to return"...but in the sense of "to turn").
Fascinating lectio Luke
In Lyceum, we used to use the mediaeval prononciation, so it would have been " ñeus " normally, but our teacher told us that in beginning of the words, GN didn't have to be pronounced " ñ ", rather G should be pronounced like a G but keeping the larynx closed witht he tongue, sort of a muted G, and the N sound should follow with continuity (not interrupting the muted G sound), so in fact, I think this is very close, if not the same, to the prononciation that you mention here as classical.
In fact, when doing history lessons, the italian prononciation "Gneo" started to sound very funny to my ears after having learned the other prononciation from my Latin teacher
;0 you said my name so beautifully, I'm almost tempted to bump Latin up my priority list with languages to learn now
Funny enough, in Sweden we would say Magnus (which is a normal first name for us) "maŋnus" :) We also have other words where the combination gn would become "ŋn" :) languages are so much fun! :)
Great video! I loved that little section of Ancient Rome below the street level when I visited a couple years ago. Fun fact for anyone who hasn't been -- there is now a cat sanctuary for strays that operates out of the ruins. At least in the summer, you can see cats lounging around in the ruins where Caesar was assassinated!
Those cats, not my favorite animal, they seem attracted to ruins.
This is very interesting because in Sardinian Magnus became Mannu dropping the G and geminating the N
Grazie Luca.....come sempre stimolante. Un abbraccio da Helsinki
Always great to see you in Rome. Reminds me of when I was in the very spot you are standing in this video. I should go back...
I now realize verbs like gnoscere are so basic to all European (at least the ones I know) that the similarity is obvious.
In Romance languages the verb becomes
Conocer, conaître and conoscere. In Germanic languages we have know and kennen.
Great insight
In fact, it is spelled "connaître". I think the double "n" is a remnant of "gn" in "cognoscere".
@@Xerxes2005 and the accent circonflexe reminds us of the missing s.
In my mother tongue Papiamento the verb is konosé. Same root.
@@geeboom You're right!
@Gee Boom In Albanian this verb is "njoh", pronounced as "gnoh" (Italian and French pronunciation of gn). I think this verb in Albanian comes from Latin "gnoscere". Albanian was heavily influenced by Latin of Augustus era, but the phonology was adapted to the local language.
Using an older orthography for a word or name made me think of two examples in English. We use "oz." as an abbreviation for ounce, and "lb." for the abbreviation for pound (weight).
See my video about this in two days! Great point
I don't know where oz for ounce comes from, but lb is libra which means pound.
Congratulations! Of the very few videos that are worth watching...! Very few they are talking about matters like that!
The little Latin I learned was in the studies ethimology and toponomy.
I tended to pronounce the V as a U only in de middle of the word, and the C as in portuguese and before E or I doesn't come easy as a K, as for the GN I may pronounde the G too strong.
Thanks to you I'm deviating from the mix of eclesiastic/portuguese pronountiation and trying to read Latin as Classical Latin would be spoken, one sound at a time.
Great!
You don't need to know how to say a language to read it. Look at ancient Egyptian, I am sure Hatchepsut wasn't pronounced that way.
It's worth noting too that this happened to all plosives before nasals, as in "suepnos" > "suemnos" (compare Greek "húpnos", "sleep") or "atnos" > "annos" (compare Gothic "aþns", "year"). The spelling difference is due to the fact that they didn't have a separate letter to reliably represent [ŋ].
I always found it interesting that Archaic Latin had those diphhongs like Spanish does:
suepnos (somnus) = sueño
duenos (bonus) = bueno/buen
@@guillermorivas7819 Yes, it's a neat little coincidence. What I haven't been able to find a convincing answer for is why some of those /e/ become /o/ and others stay, as in "bonus" and "bene", or "bellus", which is the diminutive of "bonus" (another neat thing is how Spanish developed a new diminutive "bonito" with the same meaning). If you happen to know anything about that please let me know.
Another nice thing which is completely irrelevant is how the loss of /w/ in words like "somnus" is almost the same as the loss of /w/ in English words like "so" or "sword".
@@user-un7gp4bl2l , The "ita/ito" diminutive apparently already existed in Latin. Not sure whether it was classical, vulgar or late latin though. With that being said, Latin does have "bonitās/bonitātis" which derived from bonus.
@@guillermorivas7819 I'm pretty sure bonitās has not the same development of the Spanish diminutive "-ito"
@@guillermorivas7819 What I meant is that "bonito" was derived in Spanish, not the particular morphemes.
I meant to ask whether you happen to know anything about the vowel change in Old Latin, not about "bonito".
Very interesting topic! When I began learning Latin at secondary school, we were just taught to pronounce everything as it was written, which was okay in many cases as my native tongue (Flemish Dutch) naturally has many similar sounds, but a lot of the more subtle pronunciations like this one would go over our heads. I feel like pronunciation is just as important as grammar and vocab in learning/studying a language. Great video! I can't imagine the effort it must've took to talk in between all the noise.
Well said! Thanks
As someone who is currently doing her teacher's degree for Latin (and Greek) in Flanders, I can tell you that pronunciation has become more important and the classical pronunciation is now explicitly in the curriculum. Teachers are also expected to read Latin out loud as much as possible, to demonstrate the correct pronunciation and stress accent. Like you, the pronunciation I learned in secondary school was certainly not bad, but I only learned about "gn" in my Latin linguistics classes in uni. And even in uni, many of the finer details were never mentioned and I can only assume even my professors don't know them, like the unreleased plosives. Which is why I appreciate it all the more that I can improve and practise my pronunciation online, so I will be able to teach it correctly to my students.
@@birthe9439 That's fantastic! Good luck teaching! 😃
_Grātiās_. As a Portuguese speaker I struggle with the English 'gn' sound, and I tend to not only release coda occlusives, but even add an epenthetic /i/ and palatalise the consonant. Years of linguistic training have made me quite confortable with the unreleased consonant, though, so I'm glad it's a solid option.
I like to pronounce every single initial 'gn' though: even in _gnāscor._
Your content is a pleasure to watch.
Loving the level of dedication and enthusiasm you put into every video.
Very kind! I have my director to thanks most of all.
This is a question I’ve always wondered about, love how someone took the time to make a whole video about it!
It is possible that in early Latin, many of the words with the gn combination were of Greek origin.. gnosis (Γνώσις), Cognosco (Γιγνώσκω) and because those words were written with a Gamma (Γάμμα) which may have been difficult for Romans to pronounce, the G was silenced...even in Greek, the Gamma often times is not clearly discernible. Also, the name Gnaeus could be cognate with the Greek word Γενναίος (Gennaios)which means being of noble birth and descent. Just a thought from a curious Greek. Keep up the good work!
That makes total sense. "Cognoscere" in Portuguese (Brazil) is "conhecer", and the NH sounds as you're describing the GN.
please always leave in some outtakes, I am wheezing over here, the editing in that very last moment oh my god.
and of course, thank you for another great video, your channel(s) have inspired me to dive back into latin, having studied it in high school a lifetime ago, and although I did enjoy it at the time and had a great teacher, we were never taught classical pronunciation and we could even get away with... (deep breath)... ignoring phonemic vowel length. never again though :)
Love how well researched your rants are. Thanks for this.
Thanks.
Loved seeing the outtakes! You make it look all so seamless as if you did it in one take in your final edits, so it was nice to see a reminder of the process that goes on behind the scenes, all the stopping and starting (which would have driven me mad, by the way - so props to you for having kept going!) The outtakes also reminded me why I hated Rome when I lived there. Just like London, it's too damn noisy for my liking!
Thanks!
I was wondering about this just the other day and then this video turns up. You seem to be a mind-reader on top of everything else. :-)
Great! I’m glad. GN was suggested after the Gaius video
Thank you for leaving the outtakes. I miss Rome painfully. Very homesick. Hearing those sounds I can feel the sun, the wind and the life. I will return, but meanwhile this is like having teleported for a bit. Thank you.
I’m glad you liked them!
Great video as always! I admire your ability to focus completely on the camera, I would have been distracted by the people all around! As a French speaker, I'm wondering if our nasal sounds are a direct development from Classical Latin's nasal sounds, or if they're unrelated? The "um" endings for example do sound similar to our words like "pont" or "son", I also remember you mentionning similar nasalisation in Barbarians, where a word like "consenguitur" (I believe what that word was" had a nasal sound on the "con"
Thanks! French and Portuguese nasal vowels are innovative in each language and are not inherited from Latin.
Others suspect 'GNAIUS', 'CNAIUS', or 'GNAEUS' is Latin-speakers' best at trying to say the Etruscan male name 'CNEWE'.
Etruscan was truly weird by Roman standards as well as by ours.
Interesting
Definitely possible a natural evolution from Etruscan
I don't know, they seem to have taken Minerva from them, and persona.
I am trying to learn Latin to help my 11 year old grandson with his work. I find your videos helpful, as well as interesting, so thank you.
I love this channel! (And I'm a professional classicist--I can't even imagine being this good while being a helicopter pilot at the same time!)
Very kind, sir! I certainly am no professional, but I do enjoy these topics
Fantastic video Luke. In depth analysis of a difficult word.👍.Splendide
This video was very fun to watch! Thank you so much! A bit hard to understand but i also understand that it might be hard to explain
Thanks, see if the original video on ScorpioMartianus is more clear
Well it left me confused. I know how it gn is said in Italian, and how ng is pronounced in sing, singing, but I prefer to keep the g and n.
I think the Theatre of Pompey where JC was assassinated is a bit further away from Largo di Torre Argentina, between Via di Grotta Pinta and Via dei Chiavari, where its outline is still preserved in the street lines 😊
Naturally; this is as close as one can get at the excavated area
I haven't been there in so long 😭😭😭 miss going out with my friends as we used to before covid. Great video by the way informative as usual maestro.
Grātiās tibi!
Interesting. In Swedish the name is probounced Mang-nus, with the nasal bit like in king.
Fantastic, I didn’t know that
@@polyMATHY_Luke GN is in general pronounced ng-n in Swedish, for example in ugn, lugn, välsigna, ragnarök, digna etc. Not word-initially: gnosticism is pronounced g-n. Guessing the same happens in Norwegian...?
Amazing setting for a video about Latin!
Thanks!
Interesting. In Faroese, (-)gn- is /gn/ as you'd expect but in a few dialects -gn- is actually pronounced [ŋn], so a parallel development. :)
Outstanding! Thanks
Outtakes were priceless 😂 Veni ad Mediolanum! Silentius’st (paululo)
It has always seemed a weird cluster to me. Gnosco for example, never knew the correct way to start a word with it. In Greek, while γγ is read like g, many compound words that have the γγ letters, like έγγραφο (script) or εγγραφή (subscription) are read like that "hangnail" sound.
Yup, that’s how Greek likes to do it.
The pronunciation and the explanation makes a lot of sense in Spanish as well, a lot of those words that you talked about changed into two n, nn instead of the gn of Latin and Italian, later when the print machine was invented it changed in Spanish to ñ that means one n on top of the other n to save space. And that word cognoscere in Portuguese makes the sound of ñ in the place of the gn in conheçer, in portugues is done with nh is nice
Thank you for this great explanation and for the views of Largo Argentina. More videos from ancient settings please! Also very interesting to note how the sounds K and hard G are so often used interchangeably in different accents, especially after « n » in certain British and German accents. Thank you also for the origins of the word that explains the German word « Gnade » !
Great video, Luke. We miss you at Dynamic.
Have you already done or will you do a handbook + audiobook on Latin pronunciation? I think all the knowledge you've accumulated over the years perfecting your Latin pronunciation deserves to be compiled into a handy little tome we can all refer to from time to time in our personal libraries amongst our Loebs!
Very kind! I intend to write such a book. For now I have a series for Patreon supporters at the MAECENATIANI tier.
Critias77 makes a very interesting point and I never thought about that K in "know" as a cognate of GN. The praenomen Gnaeus is also found in epigraphy as both Gaius and Caius. I haven't pondered this since I was an altar boy in my teens and got into trouble with the priest for pronouncing my Missal Latin as Cicero (KEEKeroh) would have. I hated the CH sound of C and other ecclesiastical habits. However the N in Gnaeus is silent and dropped in the more frequent GAIUS where the G is hard velar and also in CAIUS. It makes me wonder about the pronunciation of GN in COGNITO ergo sum. Of course my Latin studies were over 70 years ago so I look forward to comments.
Your voice is so soothing ♥️
Interesting to see Ubisoft's Theatre of Pompey setpiece from AC:Origins making its way into educational videos. It was so well done that it deserves it too.
Thanks Luke!
Thanks for watching and commenting!
The Spanish language still retains the pronunciation of "gn" like that of Classical Latin. The word magno exists in Spanish but it is hardly used but it can be used -- especially in historical contexts. There are other words in Spanish like "pugno, pugnante, pugnaz" but these are learned words derived/pronounced exactly like in Classical Latin.
The word "magnitud" is used commonly amongst others.
In Sardinian it has evolved into "nn" (mannu) rather than magnus.
French plays with both too, but unlike Spanish, the spelling doesn't change according to the pronunciation. We have "diag-nos-tic" and "mag-net", but "o-ignon" and "mon-ta-gne". We also have some words that have both pronunciations like "mag-né-tique /ma-gné-tique" and "in-cog-ni-to / in-co-gni-to (actually, these ones aren't supposed to have the "ñ" sound, but since people tend to pronounce them like that nowadays they are accepted).
Back in the days, the written difference was "gn" = gn sound and "ign" = ñ sound, but people began to mix trigrams with diphtongues (po-ignet v.s. poi-gnet).
Yes, you are right, it seems that generally in Sardinia gn is nn, so as you said we have
magnum : mannu
pugnare : punnare
signum : sinnu
etc
@@michelefrau6072 , , Indeed. Sardinian retains the closest pronunciation to classical latin. Spanish does it best to retain some words with the classical pronunciation. The following are common words that retain the "gn" pronunciation:
Repugnante
Signo
Resignar
Resignacion
Significar
Significante
Significado
Magnitud
Diagnosticar
Diagnosis
Etc.
Spanish words with gn like you mention are taken directly from literary Latin during or after the Renaissance. They don’t represent a natural evolution, also true of their English equivalents. But they are interesting.
Exactly. This is an important reason why gn in antiquity could not have been as modern Italian
6:12 this reminds me of spanish with its ocasional archaic spelling, but what I find weird is that both ñ and gn sounds exist, ñ=/nj/ and gn is just gn.
This was very interesting, not too different from what I assumed the pronunciation would be. The most natural pronunciation for me would be /gn/ word initially and /ŋn/ word medially and finally, same pattern as my dialect of Norwegian.
The explanation of Gn was nice, but the last minute of video even better. I mean, romans don't even speak anymore with Gn or Cn, just with car horns
I'm glad that my initial intuition (the unreleased consonant) seems consistent. I'm a spanish speaker and releasing the g sounds more like "Macnus" to me, which sounds very... anglo-speaking? With the exception of the "r" I feel our consonants (specially in spanish) are much softer.
6:56 I'm Italian and you made me realize that I actually say /ŋn/
Eccellente!
That moustache is gorgeous!
No such confusion would occurr here in the Iberian Peninsula, for the gn sound of French or Italian is writen in Portuguese as nh and in Spanish as ñ.
cannt help giving each video an thumbs-up hahah, a wonderful content-creator
Thanks very much!
I think this is my favorite one of your videos. Awesome!
Thanks! More like this in the coming weeks
You are so smart and handsome, I could listen to you for for hours geeking about "dead languages". I'll definitely need to take notes to understand this better. I do stick with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, but it's funny because in some cases when sung I shift from one to other depending on which sound I found more melodic in the specific case.
My favorite topic - phonetic geekery! 😎 Thank you so much!
Languages have a tendency to simplify pronoucniations. Gnaivos is the old spelling. I would assume that the -os slowly turned to -us, making the -vus soudn rather the same so it lost the v eventually. ai to ae... and lastly the dropping of the g because it probably felt sorta botehrsome to the new phonology of the changing latin. thus: Gnaivos -> Gnaivus -> Gnaius and eventually -> Naeus. The G probably was lost last as the name still had it. We see similar things in assimilations. ad + ferre -> afferre. Latin liked its fluent pronounciations, so i would assume that is also a driving factor here, if something seems bothering the (new) pronounciation over time.
But that is just how i would deduct it.. No idea if it actually happened like that.
I actually don't agree by a long margin. There are languages whose pronunciations became very odd and unfamiliar from the prospective of other languages. For example, take polish zamknac which is pronounced / zamk'nonch / this same words had vowels in between that just disappeared, I wouldn't say that this pronunciation is easier than the one with vowels in between. I don't think the theory that languages have a sort of tendency to become easier. Another example would be the latin way of making adverbs with was -e, that became -mente in the majority of romance languages, making something easy like ' lente '(lat. and sardinian actually) now ' lentamente '(italian and french is very similar), we would all agree that lente was the quickef and easier to remember option
@@viperking6573 It is. Just because you are used to clear vowels, doesn't mean everyone is. The answer is Phonology.
Every language and all speakers have the set of phonological rules they are accustomed to pronounce. These rules shift over time without people noticing doing it. That pronounciation can be easier for people thatare used to these things. That is why in japanese for example you also get a final vowel on loanwords that end wit ha consonant, because teh Syllable structure is somethign along CV (dunno if it actually is but it will suffice), meaning a syllable will end with a vowel.
There are many reasons for shifts. As with different endings: Maybe it was just something to make yourself understood easier? But usually people don't like beating around the bush. That is why they want flow of information quick and efficiently and in a way that the othe knows exactly what he means. There is also the matter of dialects. Latin too will have had local dialects where certain words were more preferred than in other areas. While the roman empire was a very advanced plkace, it too lacked the constant flow of linguistic information necessary to actually melt together the whole place into one dialect. That is also why we had vulgar latin. And that kind of latin would usually in the end influence the liturgical language of that area.
@@wasweiich9991 Ok now I agree. I thought you meant that every language had one type of phonological rules. This thing is called in a certain way in linguistics I believe. Anyway now I understand your answer! My bad
It's also interesting that many latin words that contain gn have a intervocalic ng or a k initially in germanic, e.g.
ign-is - ing-waz
gno-sc-e-re - cu-n-a-n
magn-us - manag-az
We have this velar n in Galician! Its an allophone of alveolar n in syllable final position and a phoneme of its own in a few words, like "unha".
Are you sure that’s not the palatal nasal?
@@polyMATHY_Luke Yes, I am 😊
My name is /anˈtoŋ ʃuˈiθ/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_phonology?wprov=sfla1
A link to the phonetic dictionary:
ilg.usc.es/pronuncia/?pq=&q=unha&l=1&c%5B%5D=0
@@polyMATHY_Luke it is indeed velar in Galician.
Galician "unha" would be spelled as "unga" in my language since ng represents that one sound.
Che bello che sei Luke !
Wow, very nicely explained. I enjoyed visiting that ruin a few years ago. Awesome! :-)
It's a bit of an eyesore.
Well, I enjoyed this immensely. Many thanks.
I love your videos luke 😍😍😍😍😍😍
That happens in Attic Greek too, in words like γίγνομαι, γιγνώσκω. We know that because the letter gamma (γ) is used to indicate the velar nasal before velar stops κ,γ,χ,ξ (k,g,ch,x), like συν+χαίρω=συγχαίρω. Such use of the letter gamma wouldn't make sense unless [g] was already pronounced as [ŋ] when preceding a nasal, as in γίγνομαι and γιγνώσκω.
γν does not form the velar nasal in Greek. There is evidence that γμ did.
Magister Luke: in spanish we conserve this sound, try to pronounce magnífico multiple times and you will hear it, also in writing at initial position like in gnóstico, gnosticismo (gnostic, gnosticism), it was lost in Old Spanish but people still pronounce it specially in the Spanish colonies so it was reintroduced dīgnum > dino > digno
Yes, these are spellings and spelling pronunciations on words taken from literary Latin, but not evolved naturally through Proto Romance
@@polyMATHY_Luke even we have words of the same origin with different evolution in pairs: pugnum: puño (fist) vs pugna (fight also legal fight in a legal court), or cognoscere: conocer (to know) vs cognitivo (cognitive)
I really like your materiel, and since we are both Army Aviators, lifetime subscription for me.....(Two tours in Nam as a Warrant Officer.) BTW: Learned better German in the Army, as it was our second language....Raised as a Catholic with Nuns teaching Latin, just like Monty Python...
Terrific! Nice to meet a Huey driver.
@@polyMATHY_Luke OH-23D & G, in which flying I received the DFC, (1967) UH-1D, AH-1, UH-1C, CH-21, CH-37, CH-47, CH-54, among others. Also fixed wing; U-5, Beech Model 12, and others....I even flew the Blackhawk in CT when I lived there.....It fixed all the problems of the Huey, and then some of its own!
Funny I was raised RC as well, now I am more Protestant than Luther and Calvin.
I'm in no way a linguist but I am a native speaker of nuorese Sardinian.
The latin word "magnus" is still present in my dialect as "mannu" and the first n is exactly the same as the one you are describing for the latin gn sound.
I know that Sardinian is pretty conservative with respect to latin (and some pre-latin words too, which is extreme imho), I don't know what precisely carried on from Latin as I'm not a speaker of it, but the idea
Magnus > Mannu
Makes a lot of sense with this idea of pronunciation. I'd love to see a video of yours about Sardinian and its evolution from Latin, it would clear up a lot of things
I really do admire you speaking so many languages and especially I have a big love for your Latin.
I do not understand it, because I can barely speak French of all the roman languages and that's all.
I am still loving to hear it. It sounds so...right! 🙂
Kaiser=Caesar...I love it!
Some of us cannot speak other languages. I don't even speak my parents' language.
LOVE the traffic interruptions - looks so frustrating 😂
Why is the ecclesiastical pronunciation taught in schools instead of the classical one? It would be much more fun and useful
Ecclesiastical Pronunciation is only taught in Italian schools. The Classical pronunciation is used universally outside of Italy except in Catholic environments
Traditionalism. Idiotic traditionalism. Education has been a political battlefield (always and everywhere, but in particular in 50s to 80s Italy) and the classical side of things has always been the least likely to change.
I am an Italian student and I study latin at school, I believe that classical pronunciation is not taught because students, quite frankly, often don't like the subject. Not everyone appreciates latin and teaching a completely new pronunciation would only make it difficult for those who are already struggling to study and learn the language. Trust me, I can tell, I have many classmates who hate latin.
@@redivivo it wouldn't be a "change" if it was done from the start of the curriculum
@@redivivo yeah, Latin in Italy is very undervalued as a subject
for sure Pompey would appreciate this "enough talking Julius Cesar, lets talk some Pompey Magnus"
Thank you like always for such awesome content!
6:13
Wait, so "gn" can be pronounced as "gn" as in "magnificent", or it can be pronounced backwards as "ng" in "king"?
Sort of reminds me of Japanese, where you may hear in the animated cartoon the characters (such as Noguchi in Chibi Maruko Chan) pronouncing "g" as "ng", for example, turning the particle "ga" into "nga". But here in Latin, "gn" is not "ngn", but just "ng".
So Magnus is Mangnus... that sounds silly to me, but so does every foreign language before one gets used to it.
The /g/ sound in Japanese turning into /ŋ/ or /ɣ/ intervocalically is a common phenomenon, actually. In fact, I do it, too!
But magnificent comes from romance languages while king comes from germanic languages, so it is interesting to see the difference in pronunciation
It's a common form of lenition where the velar plosive assimilates to the nasal following it to become a velar nasal. You can see such a change in other languages like Korean, or hangukmal (pronounced as hangungmal)
Thanks for the fascinating replies, everyone
@@KabalFromMK9 in English?
Optime explicavisti, gratias tibi!
By coincidence I've been trying to get my family to change the pronunciation of banana to baana (the spanish n-tilde) or bagnana. Because it's funny. Any chance that banana was known to the romans?
It's interesting that the modern romance languages that retain this classical pronunciation and spelling of GN aren't necessary close in geographical distribution. For example, romanian, catalan and spanish seen to agree on this, but portuguese not (at least with initial gn) despite being in the iberian peninsula, where most languages preserve it.
The consonants in portuguese like in the word IGNORANTE (ignorāns) is very understandable. We use to say each consonant very clearly. At least in the brazilian accent. We have 4 syllables on this word: IG-NO-RAN-TE.
That's because no language retained it. Those are just borrowings from Latin with spelling pronunciations.
@@user-un7gp4bl2l digno, indigno, Ignorar, magnata, maligno, Agnaldo, pugnar, repugar, signo, insignia, magnésio, estagnar, benigno, magnífico, impregnar, consignar, cognitivo, cognescer, significar, significado, magnificar, magnético, lignificar, ignorância, insignificante, mogno, magno, magna.
Each of those words are portuguese and we pronouce G N separately.
@@edgarazevedo1306 Yes, and those are borrowings from Latin.
@@edgarazevedo1306 There's no need for a word list. My mother tongue is Spanish.
We also have it in spanish: " ñ " = gn . The letter "ñ" is a medieval creation for an old sound (that was (is) common at least in France, Italy and Spain)
The letter "ñ" originally was the graphic simplification of a "n" plus another "n" (-nn-). The second "n" is little, over the greater one.
It was used in Italy too.
This signifies that, the present pronunciation is an evolution of a precedent "nn".
(Por cierto, la palabra castellana "año" viene de un precedente "anno
@@giorgiodifrancesco4590 And the letter H was pronounced, now we don't. And X was pronounced as English "Sh", as far as I am aware.
That makes a lot of sense, in Spanish we still have some of those Gs and we know they’re not pronounced like in the word "Gnomo", you just pronounce the n like there was no g in the word.
AE -- Note that in Spanish, AE such as in aero- or verbs like caer, is /a-e/ (ah-eh) which shades into /ai/ in rapid speech, and this is phonemically distinct from AI/AY /ai/. (The stress acute accent allows ái and aí also.) -- And at least by when the Latin alphabet was used for Anglo-Saxon / Old English and later other Germanic languages, the AE ligature Æ was /æ/ as in cat, apple, ash (æsc), with a long and a short version, which led to long and short A in Modern English. (So AE in Latin at that post-classical period could have been /æ/ or /æi/, varying, to be borrowed as the spelling in Old English and others. Just an idea; I don't know if it's supported in theories about how Latin developed the transition of AE to E.
Another very helpful video!
Ahahaha, Luke, you're residing in Italy compleltely, hope you're not homesick lelel
btw i share your passion for languages, finally a dude with such a passion for languages makes me feel ultra comfortable with ya, sar! (bro ass slap)
Ormai la mia casa è Roma! Mi sento benissimo qui. 🇮🇹❤️
@@polyMATHY_Luke xD waaaw
Even after the explanation, it's still difficult for me to pronounce "Magnus" in a classical pronunciation without dropping to my native Spanish "Ñ", so I end up saying "Mañus".
Like how the outtakes of videos shot in Rome is Rome itself getting in the way.
The irony is palpable
Great video, are you gonna make a video about the 4th episode of Barbarians anytime soon?
When the next season comes around I will.
Good Video 👏👏👏
Dear Polymathy it would be very interesting in the future to see videos in which you teach some words in Latin or Ancient Greek to approach these beautiful languages, maybe those words we use everyday and we dont know the origin 😍
I have an entire channel dedicated to teaching Latin and Ancient Greek
ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45Siw2bcwgjIj8FgQoJuGTM70j
ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45Six4gYLaBrTAIvfjXWKJ1EkN
I thought the place where Cesar was assasinated is actually in a modern day restaurant in italy. At least thats what one documentary I watched said.
It is, but this is as close as you can get at the excavations
In Sardinian : magnus > mannu, cognatus > conna(t)u etc
Precisely.
in Romanian it became cumnat
Interestingly the sarcophagus of Scipio seems to contain both instances: Cornelius Lucius Scipio Gnaivod Patre Prognatus, with the old ablative ending too.
So I'm thinking like Swedish?
Swede here. The unreleased g-sound is not Swedish, but the other one sounds just like Swedish, I think.
great video and cool jacket
Funny that you mentioned Greek γίγνομαι (gignomai) since it's γίνομαι (ginomai) in Ionic. Looks like a similar thing happened there.