What happens when a Pentecostal adopts the Great Tradition? (w/ Dr. Emilio Alvarez)
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- This video is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For 10% off your first month, use the link, www.faithfulcounseling.com/gos...
Sacraments and Pentecostals might sound like oil and water to you, but in this video, Dr. Emilio Alvarez unpacks a movement of Pentecostals towards the Great Tradition to form Pentecostal Orthodoxy. In this video, we talk about what it means to be Pentecostal, and whether that can fall within the bounds of classical consensual orthodoxy. Whether you want to know more about Pentecostalism or are curious what it means to be a Pentecostal attracted to Church History, this video is for you.
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About Gospel Simplicity:
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Hey! My name is Austin, and I'm a 24 year old guy who’s passionate about the beautiful simplicity and transformative power of the gospel. I believe that the gospel, the good news about Jesus, is really good news, and I’m out to explore, unpack, and share that good news with as many people as possible. I'm a full blown Bible and Church History nerd that loves getting to dialogue with others about this, learning as much as I can, and then teaching whatever I can. I grew up around Frederick, MD where I eventually ended up working my first job at a church. They made the mistake of letting me try my hand at teaching, and instantly I fell in love. That set me on a path for further education, and I'm currently a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL, studying theology. On any given day you can find me with my nose in a book or a guitar in my hands. Want to get to know me more? Follow me and say hi on Instagram at: @austin.suggs
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Chapters:
00:00 - Teaser
00:35 - Intro
03:40 - Dr. Alvarez's journey
10:04 - Union of Charismatic Orthodox Churches
16:14 - Ad 1 - Faithful Counseling
17:15 - What is Pentecostalism?
20:40 - Pentecostals and the Early Church
25:45 - Renewed Patristic interest across denominations
30:00 - Can Pentecostals be orthodox?
34:30 - What a liturgical Pentecostal service looks like
38:34 - Why not become Catholic or Orthodox?
44:00 - Would you talk people out of becoming Catholic or Orthodox?
48:08 - Afro-Latino Pentecostalism
52:02 - Ecumenism of the Spirit
58:22 - Final Four
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As a Pentecostal I feel like I just met a long lost brother. I can relate to so much of what Dr. Alvarez was saying about being a Pentecostal pulled towards sacraments and liturgy but not feeling led to leave Pentecostalism either. I hope this movement continues to grow.
I LOVE YOURE CHANNEL
Yup totally agree and I'm as well Pentecostal
As a person who encountered Living God, Jesus, attending catholic Masses, I can tell I am drawn to Pentecostal style christianity. The life of faith, life in Christ, is constant presence of God through Jesus Christ and seeing my whole being in growing in and as a part of Christ's body. This means spiritual growth that reflects my whole being enlightened by Jesus, the light. Leaving old behind, embracing the truth of myself and the world.
Sacraments are the truth about existing but the existing is the life in Jesus.
So, maybe the living relationship with Jesus and the Sacraments are the two sides of the coin.
His video with Fr. Timothy Cremeens was also fantastic. Coming from a Charismatic background and growing in a more reformed setting, I do really appreciate my pentecostal and eastern orthodox brothers/sisters who are willing to acknowledge the presence of Christ among us.
I feel move to share some quick responses to you both from the heart of one midde aged (cradle) Orthodox Christian. It gives me joy to hear you two share and explore the topic of belonging to Christ's Church, his Mystical Body, as two people who are growing in love and service to our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I am very grateful for your work and witness to Him, and for your gifts of intellectual curiosity and communication and leadership. I have had minimal first hand experience with charismatic Pentecostal worship.I was a teenager in the late 70's visiting a friend's church, I recognized the sincerity and heartfelt faith in the Lord in the people there. It was like jazz improv, and a saxaphone was present. It was emotional and exuberant, somewhat exciting and there was also emotional pain being released. We exchanged friendly words afterward that felt good to me. I also attended their bible study several times and found it helpful to a point. At a certain point, after about 4 visits, I understood that their interpretation of scripture was significantly different from that of my priest and Orthodox tradition, although I was quite naive in matters of theology. I did believe, from what I had gleaned from my Church, that where there is agape love, there is Christ, there is God. And I knew that agape is not merely emotional but is made manifest in works of sacrificial service, in action. I was blessed to experience such active love within my Greek Orthodox immigrant community, especially from the older generation, and had a felt sense of God's presence in worship in the Divine liturgy. However, most of the prayers we did were in Greek which I largely didn't understand, and most of my fellow Orthodox were unlearned theologically and scripturally. Also, most of the sermons, though encouraging, were simplistic and not very educational or particularly inspiring. I did feel the love and goodness the faithful and of the priests, in their eyes, hugs, smiles, encouraging words, and heartful presence in communal activities, but the Christ-centeredness of it all was often left implicit in a wider culture of pluralism and challenges. My developing intellectual curiosity about the faith drew me to some Western Christian services and Bible studies, hence the visit to my friend's Pentecostal church. My junior high Sunday School class also visited several Western Christian worship services. One that I have fond memoies of was our visit to a Black church. I remember the kindness, warm words and smiles from the grandmothers and grandfathers who welcomed us. We probably should have been brought to visit not only Western Christian but also other Orthodox Churches, Russian and Arab ones, because we had no relationships with them. The Russian ROCOR Orthodox Church was just a bit farther down on our same street and they may as well have been in Russia as far as we knew them. We had no personal knowledge of each other. Their culture was very different from ours. They had escaped Communism, and were traumatized by that and fairly suspicious. Many of our Greek elders had come from parts of modern Turkey were they had been expelled from their homelands, and they were also guarded. Ethnic culture, language, calendar and differing perspectives on ecumenical dialogue separated us from our fellow Orthodox, in addition to being busy with survival and adaption to American ways. Many of us identified more with the Greek cultural aspect than with the Orthodox theological tradition, although Hellenic culture was permeated with Orthodox Christian faith in its traditions and ethos. Still, we needed more. We needed clear teaching in the faith, in the scriptures, in metanoioa and in the practical practices of prayer, scripture reading, confession, spiritual reading, etc. to help us experience Christ more personally and consciously in our lives. There was a Greek American priest back then, Eusebious Stephanou, who had become a Charismatic who spoke in tongues, while remaining an Orthodox priest, although utlimately margianal. Most clergy didn't know what to make of that, or even have much to say about it. It was pointed out to us that the gift of tongues at Pentecost was not a visceral outpouring of unintelligable vocalizations so much as an actual communication of foreign languages and dialects that were being spoken in Jerusalem at the time. So I was dubious of it, though open-minded when I witnessed such things at my friend's Pentecostal church as a teen. What mattered to me more then, and still today, was the experience of agape love. Of course, such love was lacking at times among myincreasingly assimilated and secularized fellow Greek Orthodox. I attribute that to our lack of catechitical and spiritual formation in the faith ,not to any defecit in Orthodoxy. Our minds needed to be formed in discipleship to Christ. Fortunately, more English began to be used in worship, more spiritual books began to be published in English, and itinerant teachers (Fr. Thomas Hopko, Bishop Kallistos Ware, etc) began to make the rounds and visit, and give presentations that were tape recoreded and distributed, educating us in Orthodox thought. Gradually, Protestants began to convert to Orthodoxy, and were adopted into our Greek communities, bringing valuable gifts with them from their Western Christian formation. Of course, we were continually confronted (sometimes harrased) by bold (sometimes obnoxious) evangelisticals telling us we were not Christian (and therefore hell-bound) unless we got "born again" as "proven" by the "gift of tongues." They were mostly politely sent on their way, along with the Watchtower proselytes and Latter Day Saints. Others, like Billy Graham, were regarded more postively. Our priest took a group of us once to hear Billy Graham speak, although I missed that one. I'd say we were eccesiologically/spiritually open-minded to and appreciative of Christian teachings coming from Western Christians that seemed to jive with scripture and Orthodoxy, but skeptical and closeminded to interpretations and teachings that seemed very different. Similarly, we were culturally insular in our ethnic community but usually positively disposed toward other mainstream and non-mainstream ethnic groups though we generally felt ourselves to be different. Many of us didn't think we should intermix even on the basis of shared Christian faith, a mistake but perhaps understandable. Many decades have passed since then and I continue to be grateful for genuine agape love wherever I experience it, from people of any religious or non-religious conviction. My Orthodox faith teaches me that God is agape love and wherever there is real love Christ is there. His plan for the salvation of all is a great mystery. It is not for me to judge, nor is it the Orthodox teaching that non-Orthodox or non-Christians will not be saved in the end. My task is to deny myself, take up my cross and follow him in the way of agape love. In recent decades I have becomre much more acquainted with the spiritual depths of the Orthodox way, particular in the lives of saints. I believe that i have encountered more than one. When you meet a living saint, scripture and Orthodox theology come to life. It's much more than intellectual. And when you read of the experiences of a Saint Paisios ora Saint Porphyrios, and learn of the countless miracles of grace that God worked through their prayers, it kind of puts to rest questions about the "power of the Spirit". I no longer wonder if "speaking in tongues" in that visceral vocalizing way of the Pentecostals is a "sign of the Spirit" or if it is more like an emotional catharsis. It doesn't really interest me. What does interest me is knowing Christ the way the saints have known him. For that, I want to be fully in the Orthodox way. This doesn't mean cultural uniformity. Cultural diversity is part of the Orthodox way. Spiritual diversity is another matter. Perhaps it would be useful to further this dialogue on spiritual vs cultural diversity in Orthodoxy with these three men: Klaus Kenneth, Fr. Turbo Qualls, and Bishop Themistocles of Nikopolis (a Greek-Australian missionary Bishop to the poor in Sierra Leone).
Picking up our cross and denying ourselves; loving, unconditionally, the sinner while hating the offense to Almighty God is what we should all be striving for. Reading the lives of the Saints is especially helpful. I enjoyed your commentary. God help us all! Queen of Peace--pray for us!
Thank you for this.I second the suggestion of having Father Turbo on as a guest
Very Nice to hear that. Only one thing. While diverse, ortodox churchs are ethynic. And now some are nationalistic. Like Russian Church. Churchs founded by immigrants whould become less ethynic If the intention is to evangelize. Even in canonical law, should only have OCA.
Sou pastor pentecostal (Assembleia de Deus) no Brasil e esse episódio me deixou extremamente feliz. A qualidade de suas perguntas, somadas às respostas acuradas e banhadas de experiências do Dr. Alvarez, deixou essa conversa simplesmente incrível.
Obrigado pelo seu trabalho, Austin!
Gospel Simplicity, thank you so much for this interview!
I had seen Dr. Alvarez’s book, but was a bit hesitant to pick it up given some of the craziness I saw in my Pentecostal upbringing. (A Latino congregation in the COG- Cleveland, TN)
He did not disappoint, however!
Interview was scholarly, ecumenical, and stepped in the great tradition.
Despite being considering myself Anglican, I still regularly help at my Pentecostal home church. I will be sharing this video with several people there who I know are yearning for the great tradition.
I know exactly what you mean so many Pentecostal churches teach and do such crazy things that it drives some of the young people away. I’m just now becoming open to claiming the label again lol. I still don’t see speaking in tongues as they do as it’s not what the Bible was talking about in the way they do it, and I don’t see it as proof of the spirit or as something you as a believe have ti ask God for.
Speaking with Bishop Alvarez this evening and really enjoyed your conversation here!
We Christians have our differences, but God loves ALL of our worship and hears ALL of our prayers. Like the song says, “We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord….And they’ll know we are Christians by our love! “
No.
Very interesting conversation. This Orthodox thinks it is a good thing when Protestants adapt parts of our tradition! The more foundation we have in the church fathers, the better.
Looking forward to this. As someone who was raised in a Pentecostal setting and later discovered the Sacraments (in an Anglican setting), this makes me a bit uneasy in a way I can’t quite describe 😅
Looking forward to listening to and learning from this.
I'm curious how he approaches Apostolic succession
My husband and I also were raised in the Assemblies of God and journeyed over many years into the Anglican church (ACNA). He is now a priest in a new parish in North Idaho. He began his ministry as an Assemblies of God pastor, moved to United Methodist Church, and after a PhD in Liturgics, we find our home in a sacramental community. We are so grateful for the journey God is taking us on, and we feel very much at home where we are.
@@Apriluser Wonderful to hear! 🙂
Interesting interview. I don't understand however the insistence on making his own church in a sense. He's been led to find that the oldest denominations got it correct regarding the Eucharist, reverence, tradition, so he's started incorporating them into his church. I was hoping he would explain more (or better for me) what opposition he has to Catholic/Orthodox and why refuses to join with them and maintains a separation. he said he doesn't want to leave his tradition, but Pentecostal isn't really a long tradition and he's now replacing some aspects of his tradition for the Catholic/Orthodox ones, so it seems he now has a mixture instead. On a side note if someone doesn't like the Roman rite, there are other rites like Greek, Byzantine, etc. I hope the nuance in my comment comes thru since it's too short to really elaborate.
Edit: He did say if God tell me - I'll change. So he's not absolutely rejecting and is still open to what God wants. I will pray he finds wherever God wants to place him for Christ's purposes.
As an Anglican maybe I can answer. It could be for the same reason. Simply put, Christ is there. He partakes in faith and God in His love and mercy meets him through the sacrament. Rome and the East would say it's invalid. But when you taste and see that the Lord is good, how can you leave?
As a charismatic that is strongly informed by the early church fathers in my belief and practice, I will offer my own answer why he hasnt gone Catholic or Orthodox. For me, its because while there is much right and correct from the apostles - I believe in the authority of early, universal tradition - I also believe that both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have innovations of doctrine and practice that were not present in the early church. Some of which are openly spoken against by the pre-Nicean fathers. Many are dealbreakers, not in the sense that I cannot accept those who believe them, the Assumption of Mary as an example. But rather, the Church rejects me because I cannot in good conscience believe them. The Dormition of Mary is not dogma in orthodxoxy, but it might as well be in its universal acceptance. And there are many other things such as this. Unfortunately, Im kind of homeless as a Christian because of this.
His remarks on visible unity is really thought provoking. All this time, many of us always think of visible unity as something given from those hierarchs above down to us the laities. His approach of visible unity as in those happening in the grassroots between various denominations is really what we also need to aim for; the unity which is given by the Spirit among the Christians at various institutions.
Working on my MA is Classical Theology and literally in the middle of finishing my thesis on this. So awesome to hear from him.
@@EloSportsTalk I’m a church planter in a foreign unreached context and would love to read your thesis if at all possible.
This is a real question. I am not throwing stones here at all. Given how much Orthodox theology he accepts, on what basis does he consider his sacraments valid without apostolic succession?
How is that a question? All anathemas from many sides and all with apostolic succesion? Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church.
Hmm, I would venture to say he might hold to an alternate view of apostolic succession that some will find in the earliest mentions of the doctrine in Iranaeus and Tertullian. The articulation is simply that “apostolic succession” is “that which holds to the faith of the Apostles”, and that Iranaeus and Tertullian were contending for the doctrine that adherence to the Apostles’ teaching, and not a succession of consecration/ordination, is what makes a church “apostolic”. Some argue that Iranaeus (and Tertullian) use the example with the episcopate as the locus of their argumentation simply because they were only roughly two centuries removed from the apostolic kergyma. It was easy to use the episcopate as the example but that substance of the arguments is not the episcopal ministry.
Simply put, what they were arguing for was the apostolic doctrine (read: tradition) being preserved and transmitted, not the doctrine that a metaphysical grace is “transferred” like a substance by the imposition of hands through an episcopal office and that the metaphysical grace that now rests on said bishop/his vicars (presbyters/priests) is the agent by which sacraments are valid. Those who whole to this position would argue that this is evident when Tertullian says in the same breath that churches in his day that were not established by the Apostles are still apostolic on the basis of them teaching the same faith and holding to the same doctrine. If Tertullian held to a modern articulation he should’ve pointed to an episcopate in those churches that would’ve been validly ordained by the “apostolic” episcopal ministry of one of the churches that could prove a direct line of succession. But he doesn’t.
The articulation of “apostolic succession” meaning an apostolic charism/grace through the valid succession of bishops ordained from the Apostles in order to have valid sacraments is more of a medieval, Platonic idea than one from the Early Church.
(That’s the argument at least.)
That might be what he’s holding to. To be fair to him, it is the traditional Reformer view. At least he’s consistent!
As a Pentecostal/Charismatic I think I can understand him and his line of think. And what is that?
If God's presence (real and tangible) does indeed manifest like it does for Charismatics of every tradition (Angelican, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Orthodox ...) In their midst then is it a stretch to believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist they share?
I admire his efforts, but you can't just decide you have the eucharist. You can't will yourself into apostolic succession. He has a sincere desire towards Christ, but he wants to do it on his terms. You can't take St. John's liturgy and ignroe his church.
That's the problem with prots and evangelicals. They don't have the humility to say "Ok, I'll submit to this whole thing. That's how you've been doing since the beginning, right? Sometimes I think this is not the right way, but I'll put my opinions aside and conform myself to the Church's way". They simply lack humility then cover their pride with arguments. When you see the life of St Simeon Stylites, once a man sent by the Church went to him just to test his humility and said something like "You know, what you're doing is strange, we've never seen it, so please come down." What did he do? He just obeyed. Then the Church, seeing his humility, said: "Ok, this guy is not on spiritual dellusion, he's not proud."
That's the *huge* difference of this evangelicals who "have a sinceride desire towards Christ" and the Orthodox ones.
I think that is quite an unfortunate presumption you are making. While some evangelicals and Protestants are “proud” so are some Orthodox, so are some Catholics, so are some Anglicans, etc.
You operate based off of multiple assumptions….one that “the Church” is *your* church communion. Catholics and Copts say the same. Church of the East, while holding to apostolic succession in a similar way to you, don’t even say they’re the “one true Church” but simply they are part of her, same as the Anglicans.
I fully agree with submitting to the teachings of the Church and the Fathers, but it is entirely unfair to say that he must “submit” to the EO or RC because you claim to be where that one and only true Church is. Everyone is wrestling and fighting to see the truth. To chalk that wrestle up to someone being “proud” or having prelest is really uncharitable.
“You can’t will yourself into apostolic succession.”
There are multiple views on apostolic succession and what it entails. Again, you cannot just declare what a thing is and then build the argument or critique based off the assumption you made. I am not one for RUclips doctrine arguments, especially with those who name the name of Christ, but if things were as simple as you see them then I promise you people would join whatever church communion to be the “right” one in droves. The fact of the matter is that history is complicated, church history even more so. God is filled with mercy and kindness and is patient with us.
@BigBloc87 there is one view. Apostolic succession is a line if succession of ordination unbroken from the Apostles. I make no assumptions, you do.
Does the Institution quicken the spirit or does the Holy Spirit?
This centralized institutional view of the church us unbiblical.
I myself is ortodox charismatic, study calvinisme and ends up to eastern ortodox yet grown in pentacostal charismatic that believes in transubstantion of the eucharist, im from new creation church btw
He has good intentions but unfortunately, he is a prime example of why our Church Fathers (whom he says he reads) say to never trust our own thoughts. To say "God hasn't led me to become Orthodox" is exactly that, trusting your own thoughts while justifying it under the umbrella of "the Holy Spirit lead me".
At min 11.20 he said that God was not calling him to be Anglican, Catholic or ORTHODOX.
"Union of Charismatic Orthodox Churches" is just another protestant denomination.
I am curious where are they getting the bishop's line of succession from ?
Then he said others make up titles to feel validated, uhhh yeah thats what you did
The whole "convergence worship" idea is interesting.
Being a charismatic (continuationist) Lutheran, I resonate with the three-streams idea.. Lutheranism in-and-of-itself straddling the line between "evangelical" and "catholic", the "Spirit-filled" piece is very easily tacked on to complete the trifecta -- and it most certainly has a manifestation in the way liturgy is conducted.
I believe we had an LCMS theologian who said we should worship like Anglicans/ Roman Catholics, preach like Pentecostals, and believe like Evangelicals (in the Lutheran sense).
What denomination are you in?
I was raised Catholic and have attended Charismatic/Penetocostal Churches for decades and have the last few years had my eyes open that a sacramental view of baptism and the Lord's Supper was indeed true.
I'm very interested in Lutheran and Methodist traditions while being charismatic.
Dr Alvarez is so very sincere and educated. I really like his demeanor and respect for the Catholic Church and other denominations. But where he lost me is with the Communion. His hands are not consecrated and although ordained, the bread and wine remain unchanged. There's no transubstantiation happening.
I have the same concerns. Frances Chan has come to embrace the Eucharist being the source and summit of worship and that God wants His church United. But, his introducing Eucharist within his church without consecration is concerning. God can put Himself within the offering, but He chose a different way of instituting that Sacrament. Early Church Fathers spoke of what Eucharist is and who is God uses to consecrate in persona Christe.
Hmm, this is operating from your own perspective and paradigm of consecration and who has that ability based on your church tradition’s interpretation of apostolic succession though….is it not? For those who believe that the “Body of Christ” does not simply subsist in one institution or believe in the literal succession of an episcopate to be what necessitates valid consecration of the Eucharist (or the maintenance of apostolic succession) there is no problem of “unconsecrated hands”. In his paradigm he is duly consecrated and has the authority to do so as an elder and bishop in his church communion united to the faith of the Apostles and the Holy Spirit.
I wonder how the Charismatic Orthodox Communion is distinct from or different in theology and practice than the Charismatic Episcopal Church.
Another protestant who wants to claimed personal theological innovation as historical orthodoxy. OK, just don't pout if we point out the obvious revisions.
Why do you feel he needs to recover something that already exists and has existed for 2,000 years which is the Catholic Church????
Because roman catholicism at least in countries like Mexico is idolater. Mexican catholics do not focus on Christ but on Mary and the saints. They see her as an intermediary between people and Jesus. This is not of God.
@YAJUN YUAN I think you mean he ONLY wants doctrines less than 500 yrs old.
Aman 🙏🙌
It’s more that the Pentecostals are remembering what the Holy Spirit has said, and the Catholic/Orthodox are remembering that the Holy Spirit is still speaking.
Looked up this denomination it is a Protestant one that combines elements of Catholicism, Orthodox and Anglicanism...they use Book of Common Prayer...but it is Protestant. They have female priests and according to wkipedia they do beleive in Real Presence, marriage one man and one woman but again they don't have a valid and licit priesthood. They can claim apaostolic succesion but they don't...recover...it may be a batter thing that they are rediscovering the ancient Church which would be Catholicism which is good but it is not so good when they create another denomination...it would have been better to become Catholic..if not Catholic Orthodox....but should be Catholic. There is a charismatic renewal in Catholic Church which is Pentacostal in nature.
I would love to see him read some of Fr Seraphim Rose
This ecumenist gobbledygook is exactly what Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose was warning us about.
you should have father John Behr on the channel for an interview!
Thank you, Dr. Alvarez! I particularly appreciated what you said about conversionism - it's pretty one-sided, and the casual, almost prideful comments should stop. Your thoughts on ecumenism were also enlightening.
Doing some of watching of videos I missed. So this one about a year ago. Very interesting. But I fear that if I were an afro-latino Pentecostal watching this and wanting to "sign up" so to speak - I go to the website linked and it does show Dr. Alvarez as "our Bishop" - but who is the "our"? Is it just his particular congregation - I think he mentioned it was in Rochester NY? Is there a network of affiliated churches - if so there is no list or Church locator as there often is in various movements? It leaves one with the feeling that this is largely centered around his vision but there aren't a lot of "concrete" places to go to join that vision.
How do you pair modilism theology with trinitarian theology?
For those of us who don't have a church like your's near us, where do you suggest we go? I've been considering going to a conservative, Anglican church near me. It seems like every Protestant church I've been a part of doesn't hold traditional views of the sacraments and only have communion once a month or even less. I'm trying to find a blend of tradition while upholding scripture as the ultimate authority to compare everything else to.
Presbyterian and Lutherans do.
@@juandoming6688 I go to a Presbyterian church and we have communion once every 2-3 months. It's also basically an open table. No one cares too much for theology there either. The people are very kind and loving, but they aren't very educated on church history or even their own denomination.
Catholic charismatics practice forms of Pentecostalism that embrace the belief that individuals can receive gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you, Lord, for your Body, the Body of Christ, that is, the Church that you are building upon the rock of faith that you are the Christ.
Excellent. This is a direction I think the Spirit is pointing is to. Thank-you both.
God bless you my guy
Frodo: the lad
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What are the patristic people he mentioned?
I wonder when the christians are ready to ponder the cosmic, creational aspects of the sacraments. St. Irenaeus of Lyons actually started it when we was writing about the uniting art of the Eucharist.
Ultimately sacraments are a relationship between the eternal Logos, Son of God and the created universe. The Sacraments are the joint points that make these two one.
The Sacraments are happening out there without the organizational church. So, a person can experience them when encountering living God in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.
He wants to be Catholic
I Invited him to go to Daly Mass and Adoration
The importance of praying for Priest
No Priest No Eucharist
John Chrysos-os-tom's Liturgy.
I was influenced by the convergence of the streams movement in the late 1990s to early 2000s. I eventually become Eastern Orthodox some years later.
1. I don't drink coffee
2. If I did, I certainly would spend $5 on Starbucks 🤭
I admire your desire to recover great traditions and true historic spirituality, but I ask why you don't accept it all. I admit I am biased as a cradle Orthodox. I recognize that I am standing in the shoulders of giants. I wouldn't even consider innovation. Our responsibility is preservation for the next generation what the Apostles gave us 2000 years ago. However, I do see you as a brother in Christ, and who am I to judge how you practice your faith. Let the Holy Spirit continue to guide you. May God Bless your ministry.
So basically Historic Wesleyanism? Pentecostalism rediscovering the catholic tradition is wonderful, and there really are roots there: Methodist-Anglicanism is what this looks like.
Yes! My thought as well.
It was sad to see Pentecostals have an anointing service with oil and in the middle of it stress that the oil doesn't mean anything.
So much of the Pentecostal services I attend always include some subtle anti Catholic clarification. Ie god hates religion nonsense, irreverence/uncertainty to communion (presented as a "cheers" with a cowboy hat on), clarifications on oil, rejection of a sacred space on the stage and use of non Christian terms like auditorium and "service" and aversion to appearing Catholic in pose, shyness of a crucifix, the mocking of the sign of the cross is amazing to me given the OT Tau/tav. It's far too focused / thinking about what it's not. The avoidance of silence, etc Which really feels unhealthy.
Having said all that while it's really a poor experience to me in comparison to a Mass, many people love it a lot and simply can't comprehend that the mass can be worthwhile.
The Orthodox are re-discovering the Spirit? 🤣
Indeed, but you are insulated by walls of language, geography, igonorance etc in what is like the outer boondocks of orthodoxy.
However, orthodoxy in EE orthodoxy is many things to many people. Evangelical orthodox movements are already almost a century old and quite thriving.
@@eliasn.477 a whole century?? Wow...
Yes, we really need it. I am Greek Orthodox (from Georgia) and our church really needs this. Sarcasm is unnecessary here. I don't think it's funny.
This guy is not Orthodox. This is a Pentecostal sect calling itself Orthodox. It's a bunch of nonsense.
So confused right now 😵💫
Sounds like early montanism, in the best way, like Tertullian.
Come home, brother. God is calling you to the one true Orthodox faith. Let go of your baggage (academic, cultural, racial, or otherwise).
Symeon the New Theologian has nothing to do with so called Christians speaking in gibberish. In fact Symeon experienced a visitation from his deceased Spiritual father, which Emilio would no doubt reject.
Or, like those sitting in the upper room in Jerusalem, let him, too, receive the power from on high. Or, indeed, having like them received the visitation of the Comforter, let the fleshly minded think him filled with new wine, and let them consider him an idle boaster and as one who is arrogant beyond his station, because he brings forth new things and interprets ancient teachings, and speaks with tongues, and overturns the words of those who contradict the Spirit’s teachings [cf. Acts 2:2-13].
St Symeon the New Theologian, On the Mystical Life: The Ethical Discourses, ed. John Behr and Alexander Golitzin, trans. Alexander Golitzin, vol. 2, Popular Patristics Series (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1995-1997), 176.
So that through me, my God, your knowledge may be revered, (Ps 138:6)
and your great wisdom may be displayed all the more,
and all who hear shall praise You, my Christ,
because by your grace I speak in new tongues. (Mk 16:17)
Amen, so be it, Lord, according to your will! (Mt 26:42)
St Symeon the New Theologian, Divine Eros: Hymns of St Symeon the New Theologian, ed. John Behr, trans. Daniel K. Griggs, vol. 40, Popular Patristics Series (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2010), 56.
Careful~ Read the church fathers! the Church was not anti- Tongues until Seraphim Rose for the most part, neither was it talked about much, but it is found in the Fathers and the saints. We have no right to read modern consensus into the language.
1 Corinthians 14:2,15,16,19
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries…
We must tread lightly lest we grieve the Holy Spirit. Seraphim Rose had much good things to say but died shortly after his book on the 'Religion of the future'. We honor him but should reject those things that were based on extreme biased through perhaps intellectualism. Chasing away the Holy Spirit is not a good way to 'build' the church. We must honor scripture, the church Fathers and the saints, but first and foremost the first 2.
I tried to listen with an open mind and heart, but I honestly could not understand. How can any belief be defined as truth or coming from the Holy Spirit if it is always changing? Does God change? If it is our understanding of God that changes, where does this "new" understanding come from? In the Bible Jesus himself gives us the new understanding of God, but how can we be sure that it is the Holy Spirit leading us to worship in a different way? The only journey in our lives should be toward union with God's will and this does not need to lead to new forms of worship.
What was old is now new again and in different ways for different Christian traditions. For Pentecostals/evangelicals it's rediscovering liturgy and sacramental theology and for high church traditions (Roman Catholics, Orthodox...) it's rediscovering the gifts and the very tangible presence of God. The early church was liturgical to some degree, had a sacramental theology and did have the gifts and the very tangible presence of God.
A major point of his discussion is that God is bringing the different Christian traditions closer together. Perhaps in a few decades most church services of different Christian traditions will look quite similar.
You could have asked him some tough questions, like why he picks and chooses with the church fathers
In fact, Hesychazm and ecstatic prayer in tongues are not essentially different from each other, only outward forms. : )
The modern phenomena of tongues is not grounded in the Orthodox tradition. It is a counterfeit spirit.
Practically everything he is saying is subjective, which Truth is not.
It’s nice they are concerned about Christian history and tradition. There communion is still bread and wine, no transubstantiation there but they’re are trying which is good.
The Sacraments were given to Gods Church which is Catholic. Only the Catholics and Orthodox have valid Sacraments.
Not saying this to be rude or a jerk but if there’s going to be reunification of Christianity there needs to be an understanding of where it would need to lead to down the road to be unified as Christ said we are to be one. Otherwise we will remain divided and nothing will change. And to be unified as one would be to bring there traditions into the Catholic Church and have agreement on actual theology which is sorely lacking in Protestant Churches who are extremely divided over major issues
And he’s right about Charismatic Christianity being brought more into Catholicism which is good as well!
Still not really sold on the speaking in tongues though but different discussion. I’ve heard it before and my bs detector went off. Speaking gibberish not some dead language
How sure are you of that? Of you just having the sacraments and not the other christians?
There is a Charasmatic Catholic Renewal in the Catholic Church...yes agreed...the issue is the Protestant denominations do not have apsotolic succesion or authority this why their "priests" and sacraments except for baptism and matrimony are invalid and illicit. The Eucharist means Thanksgiving but it is also a sacrifice only a validly ordained priest with apostolic succesion from Christ to Peter can change the bread and wine into Chirst..Christ acts through the priest a persona Christie....the priest acts in the person of Christ. The rubrics for consecration of a Catholic Priest state that the mass is a sacrifice and the priest is making this sacrifice on the altar.....Cramner under King of England substationally changed these rubrics taking away the sacrifice of the mass and this is why it was invalid. In fact the Pope at this time was trying to find any way possible to bring them back and evaluate if Anglican holy orders were valid...the investigation proved no. Those who broke away at the time of the Reformation had valid orders but then lost apostolic succession and with the changing of the rubrics for conferring the priesthood to Anglican minsiters definatly no valid orders... This is why their priests to this day do not have valid holy orders.
Do not be deceived. This is not orthodoxy. Go to a real Eastern Orthodox Church and you will experience real historical Christianity. This man just didn’t want to give up his man made traditions so he combined his man made traditions with the Holy tradition. That is wrong. The councils forbade that. DO NOT BE DECIEVED!
Amen.
🚫 From skittles Fordham to convergence “Christianity” 🚫
The definition of Lukewarm. May the Lord have Mercy on you and not spit you out!
I am a Greek Orthodox, and the most outstanding liturgical scholar of the 20th century, Mikhail Skabalanovich, claims that the purpose of speaking in tongues in the first church, in addition to the preaching of the gospel, was also the purpose of an ecstatic prayer life.
This sounds like madness. Lord have mercy, save them.
Please tell me you're not serious
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.
Completely unsurprising (to us Orthodox Christians) to see that this gentleman was educated at Fordham University. The stereotype continues to ring true.
Brother, just as usual, you seem a bit obsessed with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church that Our Lord built upon Peter, even if the theme - strangely, but predictably - concerns to Eastern Orthodoxy.
One can easily check online to understand Dr. Alvarez was ordained as a bishop in 2011 and he is currently the Primate Bishop of the Union of Charismatic Orthodox Churches (UCOC, for how it is named). During his prelature in December 2020, he was hosted by Archbishop Elpidophoros of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (who is under the Patriarchate of Constantinople). One can also learn he is currently on the verge of getting his second PhD as a student at the University of Aberdeen under orientation of Fr. John Behr, a British Eastern Orthodox priest and theologian, who is the former dean of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary (maintained by the Russian Orthodox Church). Fr Behr was named "Father Georges Florovsky Distinguished Professor of Patristics" at St. Vladimir's, by the way.
The guest is a laureate theologian and those are the facts concerning his _curriculum vitae._ I’ll watch the video and intentionally skip the comment (due to Lent season), but why would anyone throw stones, mostly to the Catholic Church and Catholics, in the comment section of this particular video, if not for insecurity and some ideological reasons, anti-Catholicism being one of them? God bless you!
@@masterchief8179 The insecurity might lie within yourself, as you’re seeing something that isn’t there. What I was implying had nothing to do with the Roman church; Fordham University has a reputation in Orthodox circles of being a hub for rather unorthodox Orthodox people (to put it mildly)-particularly via Public Orthodoxy. Whether its universalism, homosexuality or any other perversion of true Orthodox faith, many of the people with these ideas stereotypically have connections to Fordham. That was the point, which flew way over your head.
Also, am I supposed to care that this man has academic connections to an Orthodox academic? Do you think that somehow legitimizes his position, or that appealing to this is meaningful to me in some way?
I suppose it can be meaningful, actually. That he was hosted by who is easily the most controversial, liberal, scandalizing hierarch in the Orthodox world is both new to me, and yet unsurprising. That he is under the scholastic orientation of an Orthodox academic who, though respected for other things, is somewhat infamous for his Origenist proclivities, is also new to me, and still unsurprising.
The Pope of Rome and his subjects are not being attacked here. Relax.
@@nuzzi6620 I could say the same thing about Jordanville
He's from Fordham....of course😑
@@nuzzi6620 Fordham is a private Jesuit institution known for its academic excellency. Considering the BS you’ve talked about Jesuit conspiracies (as one of the pillars for your anti-Catholic agenda, a fair amount of them even interacting aggressively with me), some in line with the worst of Jack Chick tracts Jesuit conspiracies -, one can fairly understand what your “stereotype” means. Yeah, we know Fordham’s Theology has a center for Eastern Orthodox studies built as a tribute to Fr John Meyendorff (who was himself a professor at the University, by the way), but it is barely ten years old and couldn’t possibly be associated with the “formation” and education of a number of theologians and academics amongst Eastern Orthodoxy so as to make it that mainstream, or even perceivable as a particular phenomenon among Eastern Orthodox. There are not enough history and density for such an assumption. Among conspiracy theorists online that converted to Eastern Orthodoxy and all sorts of Dyerites online, well, probably. God bless!
A tradition is an old practice. Traditions in the orthodox and Catholic Churches date back to Judaism. In other words the liturgical format is also Jewish in its roots.
Pentecostal is what maybe 100 years old. ??
That really doesn’t qualify as a tradition. Unless you are referring to the babbling done by heathen pagans that has orgies in Paul’s day when Paul said that all things should be done in order and if someone is speaking in tongues ..there should also be an interpreter. God is Not a God of disorder. Hmmm now who is the father of disorder. ?? Hmm
Pentecostalism in Azusa is 100 years old but not the Pentecostal experience. Have you read the church Fathers? Several talk about speaking in tongues. Several times St Symeon thanks God for being able to speak in new tongues through several of His works. I think the issue was with Father Seraphim Rose. At the same time I choose to listen to the Apostles and early fathers on the situation. Calling something demonic that might be of the Spirit can result in premature death or vexing the Spirit that proceeds from the Father. We should tread more lightly on this.
Paul also said he himself spoke in the same kinds of tongues.
Nonsence
ewww, Liverpool.
Pentecostal + Sacred Traditions = Early Church = Catholic
You mean Orthodox :) unfortunately there isn't a single area the Roman Church hasn't watered down; the creed, monasticism, fasting and quite literally "watered down" baptism to sprinkling and worst of all, not even communing children.
Agreed
@@xpictos777 you’re speaking from ignorance. Catholics do immersion for baptism when possible and when they can’t they pour water on the head which is also valid. My daughter was done by immersion.
Pouring water on the head was something the Apostles themselves taught. You can reference the Diadache for that.
Traditions for fasting has changed over time with the times. Not that fasting isn’t important. Yes it would be nice if they called more from people during Lent when people are challenged they rise to the occasion do it and then ask for something more difficult to do. However many small “t” traditions have changed in 2,000 years. So what, I think you lack a frame of reference here.
And it’s the Catholic Church not the Roman Church. Should stop the bigoted statement. It’s never been called the Roman Church so not very Christian from someone on here who professes to be Christian
@YAJUN YUAN no if a Priest can do immersion it’s done. It was done for my daughter. Both methods are approved and this goes back to teaching from the Apostles.
@YAJUN YUAN I didn’t give a number there’s over 1B Catholics. I said both methods going back to the Apostles is what was taught which is fact. My daughters baptism was done by immersion
I’m sorry but this pastor is so lost. Too much study is making him go crazy. Stick to the Bible and what it says if lost try again.
Sola Scriptura is inherently flawed
A most impressive interview. Well, they have women clergy in leadership. Check one. Let's hope they affirm the gifts of gay believers, too. Perhaps i am just a bit too hopeful in this regard...
This whole thing of speaking in tongues as if the person is filled with the holy spirit is total nonsense. The bible teaches that there is no purpose in speaking in tongues unless there's someone to interpret. Otherwise it's just gibberish talk.
300 million catholics are now charismatic..... that's quite amazing.
I am a Greek Orthodox, and the most outstanding liturgical scholar of the 20th century, Mikhail Skabalanovich, claims that the purpose of speaking in tongues in the first church, in addition to the preaching of the gospel, was also the purpose of an ecstatic prayer life.
@@tradertrader8838 that's pretty cool. Any reference I can check out?
@@ntlearning "Explanatory Typicon" - From one of his books
This is kinda creepy to me. I admire the yearning for Truth. But if you haven't got the lineage back to the apostles for ordination then you can not just "make" the bread turn to Jesus. Study the Catechism and join the Catholic Church, man! Go to Seminary and become a Priest.
So, if you do have Apostolic Succession, you CAN transform the bread and wine...? YOU can...? That definitely seems like alchemy to me...
My Anglican priest does have ordination from a bishop in Apostolic succession, but that still doesn't give him the *power* to make Jesus' body and blood present. Jesus is the one who makes himself present in accordance with his promises when we obey his instructions by faith.
Or become Orthodox and discover historical apostolic succession.
The disrespect of calling it creepy.
It is not the power of the priest that makes this happen, it is the power of God in accordance with the Holy Scriptures through the words of Institution.
@@gustavorvalderrama625 In all due respect, I am fully aware that it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit, but you surely would agree that our God is a God of order and structure.
Read in Acts, what did the Apostles do when they replaced Judas? They laid hands on Matthias. My Bishop can trace his ordination all the way back to a specific Apostle. Jesus gave them authority and powers, which have been passed on to this present day. I cannot command the Holy Spirit to come down and change bread into Christ's Body and I don't believe you can. I think you are misguided to Truth of The Scriptures. Respectfully. Judi.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_Movement