Orch-OR 101 - What is this Theory of Consciousness all about ? Is Your Brain "Quantum"?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Orch-OR - what the heck is it?
Tell me you've never seen a more concise explanation of the theory than in this video - pictures and white board and all !
Also, big shoutout to
@StuartHameroff
for obviously being the brain of the way we mostly "grok" it these days.
With speecial mention of Dan Dennet, Sabine Hoff, Anil Seth, and David Chalmers ;)
Love you guys! I hope you like it :D
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A very interesting theory, proposed by a very intelligent physicist, and explained very well in a concise 7 minute video. Great video, interesting theory, I hope to see more work done on this theory and more explanation of that the implications of such a theory are.
Great explanation and I am convinced cells use microtubules to "think" and store data. Single celled creatures have microtubules in their flagella and their cytoskeleton and they are crafty and can remember things
Precisely, anybody who observes single celled organisms knows they exhibit conscious type behavior, and they are made up of a lot of microtubules
You should start a religion around that. In the US that gives you tax free income. ;-)
To sum up the theory
(1) Polarity differences within pyramidal neurons causes collapse of the waveform
(2) Then a miracle occurs
(3) Now you are conscious
Some work is needed on step 2. I accept that such quantum-level events may occur within the brain, but don't see what they have to do with "consciousness". It avoids what Dennett calls "the Hard Question": how do these quantum-level events lead to our behaviour, dispositions, verbal reports, etc? Stopping at quantum-level events is stopping halfway short of an explanation.
Agree, the theory points out a direction for exploring this miracle, a parameter that stand out for me is non-locality and the wave function collapse as a mechanism of "realization". "intelligence" can be quite effectively modelled by deep learning and perhaps it is apt to view consiousness as the non-local user of the brains machinery.
Is consiousness stateless or stateful? When waking up from anasthesia our old self is restored. Is the self part of consiousness? If so where is it stored, locally in the brain or non-locally elsewhere? If in the brain then it is not intrinsic to consiouness, if stored non-locally, then it is.
backwards
(1) Not only inside the neurons but the swing affects accross nearly all the brain, resulting in EEG waves.
(2) In theory any algorithmic process can be reversed in time. If reversed the outcome of the algorithm will get blurry in initial states. May think of it as, say, you zoom in during the computation. But as how the consciousness works it is the other way around. You zoom out during the process. Try to percieve it yourself. Between the tides of consciousness do you feel a drag or propulsion ? Time direction of conscioussness vs compute is opposite.
(3) Research 'return stroke of lightning' or how lightnings work
Chat GPT will never be the all powerful AI people think it will be until we give it benzene rings. Skynet was just jealous of our benzene rings. Joking aside(I could not resist) it is a very interesting theory, and makes the whole consciousness collapsing the superposition thing make sense.
Well cant do that, as these are pure natural machanism. Unless we discover how to compute using organic matter
Give it about 150 years or less @@jdkingsley6543
You are describing the hardware that the software is using. That is a soul/spirit/consciousness/etc. that is projected and connected into a living human being.
sure, but when you have a full comprehension of the hardware its trivial to read(/write?) what software is running on it.
I mean, even if the theory is correct as far as it goes, it doesn’t actually _explain_ conscious experience. It just specifies the conditions in which moments of experience are present.
This is essentially true of _every_ scientific “theory of consciousness”, IMHO.
It would be like specifying which incantations can conjure up a demon or something-which still wouldn’t actually explain “why” or “how” such incantations work.
Science can’t even give a meaningful _definition_ of consciousness, let alone a meaningful explanation…it can’t even come up with a meaningful _wrong_ explanation!
Thanks for making this succinct Orch-OR intro, It’s very intriguing. Curious of any connection with the Observer Effect. What is the “cause” of the quantum excitations in the microbtubles, or is a subjective experience purely epiphenomenal? The ancient Indian philosophy of Advaita Vedanta teaches one’s true self is an unbound consciousness called Atma; that which illumines the mind. Perhaps this true self is what “observes” and thus collapses the wave function? Whatever, hoping humanity finds a path to a more peaceful future. Namaste 🙏🏼
Interesting connection you make between Vedanta and orch-or concepts of quantum states, and consciousness.
So, as I understand it, conscious "moments" emerge when the quantum superposition collapses. As in one bit of information enters into a quantum state, which allows all possible permutations (red, or green, or hot or cold, etc.) and when the quantum speck grows larger over time, it reaches a threshold that is defined by micro-gravity, and the quantum state self-collapses to determine one "objective" measurement.
Human minds experience brain wide "collapse" events to an objective picture about 40-60 times per second.
This may mean consciousness seems like a flowing movie, but if you look closely enough, you can see the individual snapshots flashing on and off.
Consciousness repeatedly emerges many times per second, but once you introduce anesthetics the conscious person becomes unconscious.
I suspect consciousness isn't exactly "everywhere all the time" but rather any biological entity that has mechanisms to support Orch-OR functions is conscious. (even single cell paramecium have MT's and exhibit some form of consciousness).
And lastly, observation itself can collapse the wavefunction and influence the environment in some way.
There's no "Observer Effect" on quantum level. You can't passively observe things on that scale without physically interacting. And by "touching" it you become active participant in that which you're trying to measure... aka "the measurement problem". Ignore brain-dead famous physicists that don't know what word "observe" mean, which led to millions of delusional people who because of it now wrongly think that your thoughts or "passively looking using eyes" can affect things on quantum level. Speaking of "true self"... how can it be "unbound consciousness"? Sounds like a magical workaround. How can you observe the very thing that enables observation? They obviously assume god creator, a designer... in that case humans can be anything, technological machines, where you could design what they claim. As far as I know, humans are product of unconscious evolution, alive is what survived by pure chance, random mutations providing advantages over others who didn't make it. Our own brain has no idea that we as a person exist at all. Nothing in our body does. Only you while awake sitting on top can use your senses and their "data", your motor-functions etc., and knowledge you acquired since being awake from birth. Everything below that level is off limits to us... and vice versa.
@@sterlingcooley7401 i think these structures are essentially a biological antenna that allows a higher order awareness that is non-localized to resonate / generate coherence and thus interface with physical form. what we are is pure, non-localized awareness, we have an energy body or subtle body, which i think consists of what science calls dark matter / dark energy. our subtle body is able to exist independent from the physical body, it's sort of like an astral body or dream body. the astral body / dream body / subtle body is an energetic manifestation of our conscious awareness itself. these microtubules allow the subtle body to resonate / cohere / interface with the physical form. really the truth is they are a manifestation or expression that is patterned after our energetic structure / subtle body form.
creation begins with primordial awareness, which then gives rise to slightly grosser, but still very subtle dark energy / dark matter.. dark energy / dark matter interacts with the physical universe at least via gravity that we know of so far.. it has some means to "structure" physical reality, it is what shapes galaxy superclusters, galaxies etc.. the rotating spirals & fractal self similarities found all throughout nature are being patterned after more subtle dark matter & energy patterns. awareness patterns dark matter, which patterns physical universe.. when it comes to life forms, there is evolution, but evolution has in fact been guided intelligently, it is not random. all the incredible beauty and structure we see in all the various life forms was not merely generated by random chance.
it was all shaped by primordial awareness. this is an off the cuff synergy / perspective that is similar to the cosmology found in tibetan buddhism as far as how samsara is generated from pure awareness combined with modern science.
How many collapse events per second in a worm like caenorhabditis elegans?
The wave collapses are intentional I forget the details now. But it is easy to find latest Stuart Hameroff videos on Orch OR theory who has a presentation for it.
Incredibly well explained, great job!
The highly structured organization of microtubules is present in all neuron axons, not just pyramidal cells.
Very well explained, thank you.
What about Einstein’s assertion that time (sequency) is an illusion? This raises a fundamental problem of the relation of sequency and simultaneity of events. The Schrödinger equation leads to the paradox (and what Penrose calls an absurdity) of the cat in the box being both dead and alive until the measurement (observer-consciousness) reduces it to one or the other. Here there is both sequency and simultaneity, both in quantum effect, with something missing in our understanding of the physical gap between the quantum and classical levels. Neurophysiology and neurophysiology-based AI research make the mistake of seeing consciousness as computational, in which case ORC-OR may help to settle this conundrum.
Thank you ! Yes time is sort of a function that exists with consciousness - so time is almost variable - but yeah we shall see how things shake up!
You may think about the superpositioned 'swing' motion of the benzene molecules as combination of sin(t) and sin(-t).
Forward and backward passing time waves to form a standing wave. The collapse is statistically always in the forward direction but the 'tunnel' may reach out in both directions 'to remember' things.
Interesting, had never heard of this but it came up as the 2nd or 3rd recommendation in my Home feed just now. I've been watching a lot of Thunderbolts Project videos today. Interesting how "the algorithm" associates disparate subjects..
Great video! Isn't "Pyramidal neuron" pronounced like pyramid? I thought you kept saying "Parametal neurons" until I your wrote it on the whiteboard.
Are you sure you have your benzene/aromatic ring double bonds correctly placed?????
If it creates a frame how is the frame viewed?
The homunculus views it inside the Cartesian theatre in your brain. When he views it, frames of a film are played inside the Cartesian theatre are played inside of _his_ head, which are viewed by a second homunculus. He experiences the film when its played inside _his_ head, which is then viewed by the third homunculus, and he views it by...ad infinitum.
This is why any theory of consciousness which postulates images inside the mind will fail. It doesn't answer the question, it merely shifts it.
It always intrigued me if these little structures could communicate their own experience of time trans-scalarly. Like, how "long" does time feel for them?
Cool theory, much to think about
Microtubules are present in all eukaryotic cells, does that mean there is consciousness in all the cells of these beings?
Yes, correct
All cells have the same mechanism to differentiate and perceive time. But not all of them exploit it to the level of consciousness.
I know you want to emphasize directionality but drawing the resonance forms of benzene with 3 adjacent double bonds doesn’t make too much sense given the fact that each C position also binds a hydrogen atom. You would either end up with 2 carbon atoms having 5 bonds (impossible) or the H-atom would mysteriously vanish in a transient fashion.
It's actually alternate double bonds but still with that it can exist in two states
Need
awesome video! thank u for ur expertise!
Thank you very much for the fascinating video which explains clearly and in detail the structure of the microtubules containing the aromatic benzene rings in the neurons of the pre-frontal cortex. However then it gets a bit glossed over "highly structured microtubles....create the emergence of these micro gravity collapses of the super waveform...". It is my understanding that Penrose and Hameroff suggest that collapse of the waveform occurs spontaneously (according to the formula T= Hbar/E to the power of G). What the video does not make any clearer to me is what the collapse of the waveform is exactly in terms of a frame of consciousness. What is a bing moment? Is it that a (as the theory suggests, I think) collapse is orchestrated inside the microtubles so many times simultaneously as a measurement of positions rather that the nebulous waveforms and the fixing is the frame of consciousness? A sample of our surroundings through our senses would be no different to a camera and sensor apparatus. The video does not explain the vital aspect of how the theory suggests that awareness and understanding may arise in the quantum effects. It may be obviously implicit and my lack of understanding. if so my apologies! I am only trying to better understand Orch Or. Best regards.
I agree they usually gloss over the quantum part and, I guess, hope we believe them. But microtubules definitely involved in "thinking" and memory storage imo.
My brain hurts with this stuff!
I gave up 2.5 minutes in. Lost a million brain cells trying to understand that. 😂😂
This is a great comment - it inspired this tweet - you are now memorialized on Twitter / X now !
x.com/SterlingCooley/status/1821341260793442518
Good job :D
@@sterlingcooley7401 I think you took that the wrong way. I wasn't trying to be mean. I'm a 60 yr old man who unlike you, never had the privilege to go to college. I'm not mentally equipped to understand your lesson, which I'm sure is great. My comment was only an attempt at self-deprecation...but apparently I can't even do that right because I've been sniffing paint thinner??😥😥
@@tklyte Ouch!! I'm so sorry for you. You did not deserve such an insult.
@@tklyte You are really good at the self-deprecation schtick - so I will give you a nice little sticker for that - A+
So the Human brain is a Quantum super computer with consciousness? What about other mammals with a Brain?
They are conscious too ! All mammals have the exact same Microtubules in their brains and bodies
Great explanation! The thing with this theory is that it still doesn't describe how the 'bing' itself results in 'conscious' experience. It is definitely interesting, but I feel it is a stray from more likely explanations
That is the conscious experience happening - you need repetitive and strung together "bing!"s in order to have human level consciousness
Yes, I understand this, but what I am saying is that there is still an explanatory gap in the bing itself. We can say that consciousness is the ordering of discrete bings to form what feels like a fluid stream of consciousness, but why should a bing create a subjective experience in the first place? I like Roger, and have read a few of his books, but am not unconvinced on this point.
@@jwem18 I would simply point out that you are stringing together words, that sound like you're asking a question, but you aren't really asking a question by including "should" - as nobody can ultimately answer a "should" question when it comes to physics - "why should a planet orbit around a larger sun?"
The answer was already provided, bing! is the moment of consciousness, which lasts for a small moment, microtubules sustain trillions of these at a time, and this creates a unified subjective experience - you can give someone anesthesia, knockout these "bing" maintainers called microtubules for a moment, and the person becomes unconscious.
Also, should, and the criteria of convincing jackemery7827 isn't that compelling - so good luck on your journey of discovery - open to a more interesting question when you stumble upon one
@@sterlingcooley7401 I would simply point out that I am asking a genuine question in the causal domain of a comment section of a RUclips video. I was not being rude or aggressive, just wanting to know the answer to this. Simple as that!
The translation of my 'should' question Sterling, is that I am interested to know what a bing entails. And quess what, you answered that partly in your response, so thanks for this.
@@jwem18 Fair enough, glad I could help in some way, shape, or fashion.
Consciousness tends to be a subject that riles people up, in my mind, Orch-OR is good, I'm kinda already like - hopefully moving forward in exploring the implications, and putting it to the test, so that's where I'm at with it, not really in still trying to convince people, as, that's never going to happen, and more importantly, I just don't care - as this is a public to the entire world website... but, if you, or anyone has any interesting questions to ask after you have learned Orch-OR - please feel free to ask them.
I'm not a youtuber who is going to "Cover all of the theories of consciousness" - there is one, and it's called Orch-OR.
Still not quite sure how the effect is quantum, do the Benzene Rings display aspects of superposition?
Yes, oscillating benzene
rings can exist in superposition of both dipole
orientations, which can form a potential quantum bit.
They also commonly have London Dispersion forces happening between adjacent benzene rings.
So there's likely a lot of quantum mechanics happening within these microtubules.
That's fascinating, has any calculation been done on how many quantum bits the Human mind could be utilizing? Especially compared to the latest types of QC?@@sterlingcooley7401
As far as I know benzene rings have a net zero dipole moment but have a quadruple moment that can be influenced by pi/pi interactions with other aromatic residues nearby.
@@sterlingcooley7401 Everything exists in a superposition until it doesn't, according to quantum mechanics. Not seeing how that is relevant.
But the microtubules exist elsewhere in the body besides brain
I think it goes even deeper, in protons and electrons and smaller structures. Consciouness hides in counterspace.
As far as I can tell, the core of Orch-OR is Penrose's analysis of Gödel's theorem. Without that, then maybe microtubules and quantum networks still play a role in brain dynamics, but there's no reason that they should be causal for consciousness.
nor does it successfully model anything that pervading theories dont
I've noticed that hardly any scientists or philosophers, deal with the distinction between consciousness and self consciousness. The micro tubules in your butt are conscious, but not self conscious. Unless the conscious aspect of the cortical neurons link up with the butt microtubules, then even that can be aware of itself as a butt. Or, self as butt. But that gets weird, never mind.
could be that the nervous system is only a map. There are no glial cells in the eyes. The stomach thing was explored as an answer to the correlating digestion issues that come with autism, that was not found valid-that continues to spur funding. The Heart is the eye, possibly..
Thank you. :)
Well there is gut bacteria in your butt and lower intestine that can effect your brain, so your butt might be more conscious than you think.
So if we know of the existence of micro tubules, benzene rings, etc. then why is it a theory?
They can detect it in electron microscope. Why they don't do it then?
Detect what? Quantum behavior? We don't detect quantum behavior in electron microscopes. They are perfectly classical imaging devices.
Sorry, you did neither tell us about how the collective quantum state itself, that repeatedly collapses, arises in the microtubules to start with, nor, how its presence has been claimed to be observed experimentally recently!
Of course he didn't. It doesn't work that way. ;-)
@@schmetterling4477 Then it would be a theory about something else but not about consciousness, let alone of a quantum brain! Why so? Well, for, it''s a major fact about consciousness that you can be conscious and unconscious repeatedly like, for example, when you wake up in the morning and, when you fall deeply asleep at night (repeatedly everyday).
@@farhadfaisal9410 It's not a theory. It's just some bullshit that is circulating on the internet. ;-)
@@schmetterling4477it might. the glial cells had only been really looked at within the last three decades. These communicate chemically but can read the neurons, where the neurons cannot read them, much like conciousness is aided by the subconscious. Lots going on, there. The heart is the brain, imo. Never wonder why our stimulus response is delayed, while the notion of pre-cognition is persistent? ..probably not;) The open mind"" is key, here
It sounds like you take the "consciousness" part out of the theory and it would make more sense. We haven't agreed on what consciousness actually is, and we are trying to describe how it works? Sounds a bit like pseudoscience. But great video!
Please provide credentials in neuroscience TY 🙏
@@sterlingcooley7401Carl Zimmer, then of Popular Science had presented a great summary and query, think 2002? 'Glia and Consciousness', or similar.
Is your liver conscious? You need to check Prof Mike Levin for great insights in to that question.
So there is no chance that the binding of Anesthetics on the benzen ring changes the structure or polarity of the whole neuronal body?
Based on size and scale - no.
The microtubules can control the shape of a neutron - if modulated by some classes of drugs.
@@sterlingcooley7401 So microtubules in cortex pyramidical cells have more special configurations / alignment and (I saw some pictures of them after I googled them) seem to have more interconnections. So pyramid/cortex microtubules are unique compared to others in the body?
@@lowruna correct these are uniquely oriented structures which may give rise to conscious experience.
Very nice. from india
Bing bong bing. Could be
Wow, that was a giant pile of bullshit. :-)
Video was fun and made me consider consciousness. Then I looked at your channel and saw a bunch of woo-woo vagus nerve shit and immediately lost all interest in this theory.
Lol imagine thinking the Vagus Nerve is woo-woo.
@@sterlingcooley7401 selling vagus nerve whistles is the woo-woo
@@sterlingcooley7401 And notice how they're always using the s word, even for things they consider to be good, as if they were coprolalic, n probably they are.
This video is nonsense. What he's postulating is not what the studies have hinted at in even remote terms.
daniel dennett is the worst