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Does Pandaemonium Have a Huge Plot Twist Coming? | Final Fantasy XIV
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2022
- Patch 6.2 is finally here and our heroes return to Pandaemonium Abyssos to discover what secrets lurk within the Ascian dungeon. But could there be far more happening here than we originally thought? It's time I actually get to the theory craft Final Fantasy XIV with the rest of you! Very excited! Let's get crazy.
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I love how when it's confirmed that Themis is Elidibus, we don't flinch, or act shocked.
We just knew. After all, he looks like a younger version of Elidibus's WoL.
Same voice actor in Japanese as well.
@@katarh Same for Hesphastios/Lahabrea. His VA in Japanese is Char Aznable from Gundam
I mean I cried cause it made me sad. Does that count, I actually think seeing firsthand how young Elidibus was what made Elidibus's story so much more devastating for me.
@@katarh and English.
I know they never attempted to hide it (the voiced cutscene at the end of 6.0 couldn't be more obvious) but I still got super excited to see him reveal himself. He was such a sweet little guy up until that point and then we get the "say my name" bit and you're like wow this guy actually has some bite. Praying all of them get some voiced dialogue in the last tier, it would be such a treat.
The end of the Abyssos cutscene where Pandæmonium appears in the current day still had me awestruck. What a cliffhanger.
For extra fun (and gpose?) you can go down to the Aitiascope from Labrinthos and check out Pandaemonium hanging out there. There’s a couple researchers there Sharlayan studying it too.
I was absolutely gobsmacked by that. And a little terrified. It was a fantastic "That's not supposed to be able to be there" moment.
Once more the cursed castle rises from the depths to menace the living.
maybe that'll be the hint for the next expansion? that somehow we fked up the timeline and make the chaos once again lol.
Could it be possible Zodiark was created in some shape or form in or some glimpse into the cause of the Ascians and the other shards? Why more could this place be hiding, to just simply act as a prison seems too normal of a purpose for such a horrid place.
I feel one thing that stands out to me when it comes to Lahabrea and that no one talks about is that his red glowy mask is complete in our present instead of being only a half as it should be if his soul was still split. Does this mean that he at some point reunited with his emotional self, or did someone else take up the mantle of lahabrea, ooooor maybe it’s just a design choice and means nothing?
Its possible that the mask being whole in our present might just be a accidental plot hole that the developers didn't consider when creating the pandemonium raids....
But I think we all know that the developers would absolutely take that into consideration to tease us! There is a reason and I'm sure we'll find out in the next couple pandemonium patches!
With the Final Days happening, I do think he combined his soul back. Maybe thought that Athena's 'solution' was the answer to their troubles.
Let’s also not forget that here he is soul bonding with Athena, and then what’s the deal with igeyorhm in HW? They were confirmed to be a couple by the devs when asked, and clearly he seemed to be fine with doing so compared to here in pandaemonium where he seemed reluctant if not terrified to try it with Athena, and then immediately ripped out that part of himself, splitting his mask
It could easily be a pre-current ascian story plot hole like most of ARR is since it was only from 3.1 on that we ended up with where we are now
Lahabrea is definitely the biggest victim of that old story
The answer is obvious. The Pandemonium Lahabrea is going to merge with his old self in the final raid series and be the second boss and end up using his son to resurrect his wife. The final two bosses of the tier will be the resurrected abomination wife and Erichthonios. Not sure which one will be the final boss, but one of them will be. The results of this will be Erichthonios losing his memories. The raid completes and Lahabrea's title falls to Erichthonios. Cue bitter melancholy theme as we realize his sad fate of being fuel for Thordan.
@@BlueWoWTaylan dude this just gave me an idea. Lahabrea/convocation needed knowledge of Hephaistos (soul merging with creations) to complete the mechanism of summoning Zodiark.
We know Elidibus was chosen to become the heart of zodiark, to give it sentience and act on the benefit of the star. Perhaps this was only possible from Lahabrea & Athena's research.
Because you brought up FF2, I will mention this. FF2 is the first appearance of the spell Ultima. The spell was created to defeat the demons of ... Pandaemonium! Pandaemonium had risen into the world, and after Ultima was cast it was sank back into hell.
This might go nowhere, but I feel like it's significant that Lahabrea - the man who cast Ultima in ARR is also the central figure of the raid involving the place that Ultima was used to defeat in the past.
Who knows, maybe we might even learn what the Heart of Sabik is.
I would ❤️ a Heart of Sabik callback
Also notice that the first form that Hepestis... Emotional Lahabrea turns into is very similar in structure as the Ultima Weapon.
Certainly a good point 👍
such devastation was not his intention
FYI, the heart of sabik is called "black auracite" in the JP audio. Dunno why they changed it for english...
Claudien said the blue crystal was calling out for its "other half". Perhaps our Lahabrea's red crystal was in Azys La, so when Claudien got there, he rejoined the crystals, resurrecting Lahabrea and/or Athena, who then summoned Pandaemonium to the Aetherial Sea somehow.
Something I noticed is that this "abominable research" that Athena was performing sounds a lot like the groundwork behind the creation of Zodiark, a crafted god with Elidibus melded into it as the centerpiece of its heart and soul. So was that Lahabrea calmly telling the council that he kept a record of the knowledge they would need for the task when the time came, or was that Athena taking advantage of the situation to finish her work?
Yeah I think we're seeing the origins of the Ascians play out.
Yeah I am thinking this is the start of the concept of enthrallment. With how the first and second tier it feels like the keywards are enthralled by something in the deepest corner of Pandemonium. This would lead to why Zodiark was able to enthrall or temper the Ascians and why the people keep wanting to sacrifice more and more to Zodiark. Lets face it, they weren't going to stop sacrificing their creations after the second time. Plus someone had to give the Convocation of 14 the idea to make a primal.
Dont forget that athena's research also involves soul-body separation, possibly the origin of the unsundered ancients immortality
@@retokazene5085 To be fair it's indicated that all ancients are immortal (or near enough not to matter) in the temporal sense, the only deaths we're aware of happening by choice or trauma. And even the latter is an expression of the former in most cases. The Ascian's resistance to death might simply be attributed to actually choosing not to, as until the time of their renaming they were very accepting of mortality, but after they rejected it almost wholesale.
Doesn't mean youre wrong, I'm just not convinced that particular element is rooted here yet.
@@Reshapable Remember that the Ascians were able to teach a sahagin priest how to become like them, how his soul hopped from body to body as Merlwyb shot each of them (before he got eaten by leviathan). The dialogue about Athena's research kinda does sound a lot like she was, in addition to trying to create souls, trying to enable a person's soul to hop from body to body. It makes quite a bit of sense that the ones who ended up unsundered included Lahabrea, who is in a very good position to learn all about that, and possibly propose using the technique to allow them to survive the sundering. Maybe they even tried to do it with the whole convocation and only had time to get Elidibus, Lahabrea, and Emet-Selch.
Is Ericthonios, like the original Greek myth, actually a *clone* of Lahabrea, and Athena's first success in creating a soul? Is that the reason Ericthonios has such low magical power compared to other Ascians?
Is the Lahabrea we know actually Hephaistos, and Emet-Selch saved the wrong Lahabrea back when the Sundering happened? Further adding to Emet-Selch's melancholy, because both of the friends he saved were actually shadows of their former selves?
Are we getting a Gaius-level redemption arc for Lahabrea?
Find out next time, on Pandæmonium!
"Will Eric grow up to look like burnt beef jerky with 2001 hot topic hair?? Find out next time on XIV!"
The Lahabrea we know was unsundered. So if there were a switch, it would have to have happened before then.
@@Snowmanse Additionally, Lahabrea is a title, so if the one we see in Pandaemonium dies or retires, a completely different character could be Lahabrea, including, say, his son.
Ericthonios is not an Ascian, Ascians did not exist before Zodiark being created.
Lahabrea having been a decent person, assuming this is the Lahabrea we knew, before the sundering, would not be the same as Gaius working to redeem himself after doing bad things. Lahabrea died being a maniac seeking to destroy and kill, being good before doing that does not redeem him.
I had a crackpot theory from 6.0's raid story that Igeyorhm was Athena. I still think that can hold true. They name drop Igeyorhm during 6.2's raid story. They said something about how Emet-Selch and Igeyorhm both showed concern for Lahabrea after the incident with Athena altered his soul. They also note that Athena's soul has likely already found a new vessel.
This might lead one to believe that Igeyorhm could not be Athena, but Igeyorhm is a title. The previous Igeyorhm could have returned to the star and the vessel with Athena's soul could later take up that position. The similarity between Lahabrea of the past and Athena combining compared to the fusion of future Lahabrea and Igeyorhm cannot be overlooked.
It could also explain what happened to the Thirteenth. If Athena's reincarnated soul became the next Igeyorhm, then it could make sense that the same Igeyorhm that caused the Thirteenth's denizens to become 'immortal' did not do that by mistake, but it was just another step in her experiments.
Oh that's not bad.
igehyorm was his assistant in matters concerning the convocation and future of the star she was close to Elidibus so sadly this theory holds no weight due to the fact Elidibus knew her very well.
and also Athena was Lahabrea's wife and the chief overseer of Pandemonium a facility independent from Elpis. She didnt care at all for Lahabrea or the star Hephaistos reveals this to us he learned her heart's true desire when they fused and proclaims she never loved him and as a result he tears his soul apart sealing the portion of it that loved Athena away in the red crystal.
@Joseph Burkhalter.
Igeyorhm - Champion of enlightenment and rhetoric
Igeyorhm has been confirmed to be a title.
She was also the same overzealous Ascian that caused the Flood of Darkness in the 13th.
FYI for anyone who doesn't know, you can head back into the Aetherial Sea to look at Pandaemonium after completing the raid story.
Wait, its not an cutscene thing, its acually there when you go in??
I really enjoyed this! Another thing that strikes me again with this second tier is how many parallels there seem to be to Zenos and the small hints we have as to his origins. -Elidibus- Fandaniel seems to suggest that Emet-Selch succeeded in some experiment that led to Zenos having memories of the Final Days (Elidibus calls Zenos an "irreplaceable test subject"). A parent experimenting on their child to create a super powerful being that even Ascians come to fear and who is obsessive in their pursuit of us and who has the memories of (perhaps) another soul. Sounds suspiciously like an hemitheos to me. Zenos is even described as a ravenous beast. All very Pandaemonium-esque if you ask me.
Wait this makes so much sense
honestly, I assumed zenos having the memories of the final days would have been related to the soul-aether modification he did using Krile's soul and his. we see Krile struggle with premonitions a few times of the final days after all
@@Akinon93 That would make sense. But he specifically says to Fandaniel that he has "always dreamed of it" to which Fandaniel wonders if Emet-Selch could've "found a way." So I assume the dreams were there before the Resonant.
@@reiss6559 I'd always taken that to mean The Echo or some form of it. We still don't *actually* know what The Echo is, specifically the ability to move your soul into different bodies. Venat taught us about the "see the past" ability that was attributed to The Echo, but there are elements of it still unexplained. Elidibus has outright said that we only have a fraction of its potential.
The hemitheos is specifically the fusion of mankind and his creations, as stated by Lahabread in the Abyssos quests.
Now all of that said, I do think we're going to get the Zenos explanation, but not by way of him being an explicit hemitheos, but by way of Pandaemonium explaining what The Echo actually is.
I think Athena's plan the entire time was to die and travel to the aetherial sea. She's obsessed with strengthening the soul, because when you return to the aetherial sea, your soul is slowly broken down in to neutral aether and redistributed to create new life. She's looking to become eternal in the afterlife, and the final steps of her plan are to get to the sea, take Pandaemonium with her, and complete a soul merge. She may even need the facility to indefinitely continue strengthening herself at the cost of other souls.
Athena is Jenova?!
The aetherial sea doesn't break down souls though- if it did, reincarnation wouldn't be a thing (us and Ardbert being the reincarnation of Azem, Gaia being the reincarnation of Loghrif, Amon being the reincarnation of Fandaniel/Hermes, for some examples).
The Ascians believed in actual reincarnation of an intact soul. Which would make sense that, given their nature, their souls were much more resilient to degradation. I mean, we know that even sundered Ascian souls are reincarnated intact. Also, I'm guessing Athena's soul is still in the Aetherial sea since she died before the sundering and most likely was never reincarnated, possibly due to her own choice/devices.
@@arahman56 Your memories will find your way back somewhere but you're not that person. Whoever inherits them is their own individual. Amon knows who Hermes was but is not Hermes. Gaia knows who Loghrif was but is not Loghrif. It's the Star Trek cloning problem but even messier.
@@1337penguinman The Dotharls believe in similar reincarnation, and they saw the Crooked Coin as a way to break the reincarnation cycle...wonder how long it'll take before they realize Y'shtola rumbled that up.
With how chaotic and desperate the Final Days were, I do believe 'good' Lahabrea decided to combine his soul and use Athena's knowledge and become who we know in the present.
Although, we never see his eyes and face in the present version with the mask always covering him. So it might be one of Jesse's theories also.
And if so, used Athena's knowledge and research to finish her research, spread the research AT LEAST to Emet and Elidibus, and by so doing prevented them from being sundered and allowed them to have the powers of the Ascians.
At the very least, I think we're seeing the origins of the ascians.
Do you think maybe him never revealing his face connects to Athena deciding not to take off her mask in pandæmonium?
One thing I found odd was that Athena insisted on wearing her mask in Pandemonium. Was that for us? Would we recognize her without the mask? Or was she hiding something from Lahabrea?
I assume that's because Athena doesn't show up enough to warrant creating anything but a Generic NPC for her, so it just stops her looking 'plain'.
@@LoopStricken Could be, but because they explicitly pointed this out, I wonder if there's more to it. They could have just not mentioned it, and most people wouldn't have thought twice about it.
Obviously Athena is Tataru.
@@ChainedFei Who do you really think made Proto Carbuncle?
Something you missed, the Mark of Lahabrea, and the symbol of the Words of Lahabrea is an inverse of the Mateaus Sigil. Also, Here's a tidbit you might've missed, because it's crossed with another part of the story, introduced in the same patch no less. The Only way to truly kill a Voidsent is to consume them. Stronger Voidsent have difficulty with eating specifically strong voidsent, because they can lose themselves to the new persona being added. This doesn't really apply, but the next part does. When that Voidsent who did the eating dies, it is specifically the strong voidsent it ate that have a chance of forcibly seperating themselves from the reforming mass and escape to be themselves once more. Think back to Thordan's words. Primals consume Aether. The soul of an Ascian is no different. Powerful Voidsent die, they need to be somewhere safe and free from being eaten, because it takes them so long to reform due to all their power. Lahabrea is an Unsundered soul. It would take him a *Very* long time to recorporealize after being eaten, if the rules apply.
The Final Tier of Pandaemonium could be against a fully resurrected Lahabrea, soul of Hephaistos fused with Athena's, and if you're right about Claudin being the source shard of Erichthonius, he being the body of the newly minted True Lahabrea.
To be clear I'm not explicitly disagreeing with any of this and I love what you got here. But some potentially important details are they are discussing voidsent when they are laying down these rules. And voidsent are specifically unique to the 13th reflection in which the concept of death does not apply, not just darkness aligned beings like the ascians. There are definitely some similarities between those rules and the Ascians retreat into the space between. But it is different, as Ascians (sundered or no) only lose their form when they perish, retreating as uninteractable aether until they can put themselves back together again. If that aether is made vulnerable as we do on several occasions, they do in fact fully die and find themselves recalled to the aetherial sea. Which thus far we are led to believe will never happen to a voidsent.
But as you mentioned the circumstances of Lahabrea's death are unique and so it's not entirely impossible for something similar to have occurred. And the voidsent connection isn't even necessary. We've seen with Elidibus and Zodiark that the components within a primal are not perfectly blended, individual elements are retained and can even affect cognitive functions. Meaning Lahabrea could have retained his sense of self within Thordan. The question is whether his aether was fully expended and if that counts as the same thing as being... uh... laser beamed.
@@Reshapable Very true. However, FFXIV's unusual amount of aetherological studies are never quite rightly explained by the so-called 'experts' like Y'shtola and other Scions being flat out wrong on several accounts. While, yes Primals and Voidsent are different in name, they are actually much more similar than I believe you're thinking. After all, Voidsent are human bodies corrupted by Eidolons, The thirteenth's name for Primals. This makes them adjacent enough that many of their rules still apply. We see this in how we see the different deaths of those who cast their lives as payment for the Eldest of Primals. We see, and can reasonably deduce, that every single soul in Zodiark was still whole, and strongest of them still think clearly and act individually (Hythlodaeus stopping the other souls from interferring with us). These souls all then return to the Lifestream after Zodiark's death. Hydaelyn however, was summoned with the Express purpose of defeating Zodiark, so they thought the requirements for the summoning to be much more devastating, erasing their souls to fuel Hydaelyn's form.
But that could be down to the fact that Primals appear as we imagine them, abiding their rules as such which we give them. Tiamat used the Primal summoning on her partner Bahamut. This closeness in their strength led her tempering to be weaker than most (The Ascian gifted Primal Summoning was always tampered to make summoners tempered, as per Lopporits who teach correct summoning/Creation magic to the Tribes to send aether to the Ragnarok). Zodiark was always made in order to give up the souls that made him. Thus he kept them safe, as per what was imagined of him. Hydaelyn required the permanent Sacrifice because her maker THOUGHT she might need it. We saw this as early as ARR. The Sylphs thought Ramuh was a kind benevolent wiseman. So he tempered as little as he could, and acted only to ensure their safety, and then Gilgamesh Primal Summoned Enkidu, his bossom pal and maybe-less-than-equal partner, and wasn't tempered at all.
But what of Thordan and his Knights of the Round. They were average normal humans. They kept their average human forms until they power up, we even catch half a glimpse of actual Thordan before he transforms and loses in Azyz Lla. The Ascalon is not desummoned, and doesn't turn back into Hadrith's body. Instead, the incredibly dense Aether that is Nidhogg's eye is still in one piece and is plucked out of the sword by Estinien. There's one other incredibly Aetherically dense thing that was absorbed into the sword, and that was Lahabrea.
It's a crack pot theory, to be true. But it plays within the rules of the world established not by the scholars of the world, but based in the exact cause and Effect we see of phenomena.
@@beatrixkaelin5120 I think you're leaning a bit heavily on some head canon as there are things that are never established that you treat equivalent with confirmed fact. We can't speak to the souls involved in Hydaelyn's summoning, and given she recreated one among their number as the Watcher there might even be evidence that they are equally whole. Hythlodaeus was consistently noted to be weaker than the average ancient, so strength had nothing to do with his interactions on the moon, and those specters may have only had the influence they did due to both or either Zodiark's compartmentalized state or the freshly damaged seal. Or maybe even Elidibus's absence.
Also the Ascians didn't specifically teach a corrupt form of summoning, they taught the only method of summoning they knew. Hydaelyn was the only primal not built to temper until such time as her creations helped provide the same for the tribes. Tiamat's relatively tame tempering stemmed from her aetheric density, similar to the ascians themselves who Emet Selch readily admitted were tempered by Zodiark. The only universal rule of tempering is loyalty, the rest is indeed dependent on the wishes of the original summoners. Aetheric density seems to dilute the intrinsic influence of tempering. Low aether beings are turned into mindless zealots while thiccer beings have a greater degree of creative expression, giving Emet leave for his many actions in Fauxmurot. I suspect Gilgamesh lacked particularly strong parameters when he summoned Enkidu though I haven't done this myself yet so I don't know. Don't worry bout spoilers I'm not exactly concerned about the lore integrity of a comedy series.
The Heavensward were similar to Ysayle and Shiva far as I could tell. They transformed as they liked and were pretty limited in their tempering, for whatever reason. And the eye never lost shape, it was part of the sword physically (Allowances should be made for graphical and technical limitations, that spot while not identical looking was clearly always supposed to be the eye). Lahabrea on the other hand was comprised of pure aether, not even possessing a physical body at the time. The eye can be completely drained of aether and still be present as it's a physical object. The same cannot be said of Lahabrea (I'm not sure why I'm arguing about this, I fully expect Lahabrea to be found in Azys Lla through some fashion or another as you suggest, I'm just arguing semantics for some reason).
And while I'm shaky on this given its recency, if I'm remembering correctly eidolons are the same as primals (far as we're aware) but are not the same as voidsent. Just like sin eaters are similar but not the same. The summoning of eidolons and the war against them were the first steps towards causing the flood of darkness, upon which the voidsent were born. So they're still distinctly different entities albeit with definite similarities.
I apologize for any disorganization or half finished thoughts, I started writing this off the top of my head and then got so lost in editing and whatnot I'm no longer clear if I should even post it lol. Maybe I'll come back and tidy up later, Im going cross eyed right now XD
@@Reshapable While I do often lean towards headcanon, I'm never that far off the mark as I have been pretty good at figuring out certain story beats, such as predicting a villain using the Warrior of Light's fame and power to make a Primal Warrior of Light, back before heavensward. But that's besides the point. I do have to point out things you're missing. We do have Tales from the Dawn which explicitly states that Hydaelyn's summoning would consume even the souls of those who fueled it, in order to make it stronger than Zodiark. And because it is a common thing writers do, We never mention something very pointedly without intending for it to be important. "Sow new life - a bounty of souls to take the place of their sacrificed brethren. In time would they reap this crop, and by rendering it unto their god would the lost be returned, and the world restored to the paradise it was and ever should have been." There was never a doubt that they could do it. But with Hydaelyn, not even the soul would remain. No soul means no return to the Aetherial Sea. The fact that Hythodaeus and even Fandaniel returned to the Aetherial Sea meant that Zodiark even spared the Soul that was his Heart.
Hythlodaeus was only ever called weak by himself, and almost always in contrast to the might of Hades. Recall that he is the Chief of the Bureau of the Architect, the original choice to be Emet-Selch, he simply passed the opportunity because Hades would fit the bill so much more. He was also often enough called upon by Azem with Hades to solve issues that Hades at once could tell Hythlodaeus had a plan. He was never "Weak" just not as good as Hades. It's probably a facet of their culture's heavy emphasis on Humility at play, but he was never said to be weaker than the average Ancient. That's Erichthonius who was called such.
Yes, it is explicitly stated that the Ascian's Summoning magic is specifically tampered with to Temper. Livingways' Exacting line is "From what I've read in Sharlayan Tomes, It appears the Ascians incorporated an additional nasty element into their summoning method: the fervent desire to incorporate others into one's belief. Beings thus created are instilled with the selfsame desire, and use their powers to enthrall people - starting with the summoner. In contrast, our creation Magicks - the original and the best, accept no substitutes- don't incorporate any of that rubbish, so there's no risk of tempering, I mean, if the being was on the scale of Zodiark, *you might feel a little "Tug"*... But I think we'll be safe enough." That line alone even further implies Zodiark and Hydaelyn can't temper either. We learn from Venat in Elpis, that the blessing of light is her "Traveler's Ward" which prevents the tampering of aether, which she alone can bless people with. I believe Emet-Selch was either lying to us about being tempered, or was lying to himself to excuse his willingness to kill people.
The TIamat point, I'm willing to concede, because the only sources that support me are the Scions trying to figure out why she's still relatively non-tempered. And if you mind not the Hildy Spoilers: Not only does it show a non-god and non-revered or even well known individual being summoned as a Primal (Leading up to the culmination of bastardizing the original Scion understanding of what a Primal was, Anima), it also showed a form of creation magicks a head of time (originally thought to be time reversal, but then realized to be 'returning the item into what the caster believes its true form is' and the copius amounts of Dynamis level 'Clap your hands if you believe this Goldsmith can clap their cheeks' level of insanity. But in Gilgamesh's case, he summoned a primal Enkidu simply with a feverant desire to see his old friend, and a nearby box of crystals as the aether source. Since Gilgamesh isn't from Etheris, we can only assume our rules don't fully apply to him, but literally every other rule does, and he often does abide by the rules of the games he enters (Yes, this Gilgamesh is the same Gilgamesh as in every Final Fantasy)
I concede the Eye being a physical piece of Ascalon, unchanged, thus easily removed, but I still hold true to the fact the Sword itself stays in one piece, all the way through EndWalker's Role Quests. Everything else transformed by the primal power turned back or expunged into either. Why didn't Hadrith's body?
And to my point, Ysayle and the Knights of the Round are perfect examples as to why the Voidsent and Primals are very closely related. The Memoria and Auracite Unukalai talked about are one and the same, Unukalai most likely using the term Auracite because it's a term we know (or at least this is how it can be explained). The power of the Eidolons was to consume aether, bleed the land, the same deal as Primals. But "Voidsent" were made when the Eidolon's power became part of the crystal bearers, this is told to us by Zero, stating that Memoriates with crystals began abusing the power, turning people into voidsent armies to fight one another. That sounds an awful lot like Thordan granting the primal powers to the Heavens Ward. The only difference being that as the Thirteenth kept plunging further and further into the dark, Thordan was stopped quickly by the Warrior of Light, and no one else who became a primal would suffer giving that power to anyone else.
It is important to remember, that inspite of their similarities, Voidsent are not Dark Equivalents to Sin Eaters. Y'Shtola is, as often is the case, wrong when she supposes that. The creatures we call Voidsent began appearing During the Contramemoria, quite handedly visible thanks to the image accompanying the story Zero provided, the story which included the point of Memoriates using the crystals to transform others into their own ravenous army. Sin Eaters are people who are infected with tainted aether from the flood of light. The flood of Light isn't a primal or an Eidolon or any thinking being. The flood of light was an accident after Ardbert unleashed his blade of light on Lohgrif and Mitron. The Sin Eaters then attack people, consuming their raw aether, which is the same thing Voidsent do. This high level of activity and hunger do not actually reflect the light's passivity as the voidsent's hunger and warring does for Activity. They are very similar and in a funny way makes them not the same but opposite.
@@beatrixkaelin5120 Venat didn't say she was the only one who could provide a traveler's ward, only that she came up with it and the one we have couldn't be anyone else's because she recognized her own handiwork. And her not being able to temper is something I posited anyways. Discarding Emet's line out of hand seems a bit cherry picky tho, there's no reason to think Zodiark would not have that function incorporated and doing so has no ill effect for those who created him. And the loporrits saying theirs is the original is in relation to creation magics in general. Which do not incorporate tempering and have the capacity to create the tribal primals. That does not mean it's what the ascians used when summoning zodiark, which was far from an every day creation. It means they have Hydaelyns method which we already know didn't use it. They're cooking using a different recipe book. The comment about zodiark inflicting a "tug" was saying even with the loporrit's tempering free method some influence might be felt. Other than that, I'll admit I haven't read the newest short stories yet so if it says souls were burned for hydaelyn then I'll concede that's what they did.
Hythlodaeus was indeed the only one who called himself below average. And then he detailed why, how he was terrible at creation magic and had less aether than average to wield it with. It didn't mean he was worthless and nobody suggested as such. He had gifted vision and keen insight. He was effectively the Stephen Hawking of the ancients, which made him incredibly qualified for a lot of important roles... and incredibly unqualified for a lot of basic ones.
The difference between Thordan and other primals is that the twelvesguard are part of the legend. They together are the primal not just Thordan alone (and no this doesn't suggest they had equality between them, subservience was built into the tale). Although you're right I have no idea what's up with the sword. I expected that to dissipate offscreen or somesuch but come Ishgard's blasphemy quest and there it is.... lingering. But notably devoid of aether as the cardinal discovered.
And voidsent ARE exactly the same but opposite of sin eaters. They are beings with their aetheric poles imbalanced in a specific exclusionary direction (considered corruption no matter what alignment), one purely (or near purely) astral and the other umbral. Their behaviors are by and large nothing alike, with the one exception of consuming aether. But that's a functionality true of every being in existence in 14, living, dead, primal, or thrall. Aether is necessary for everything. Behaviorally sin eaters and voidsent are SPECIFIC opposites.
Sin eaters are completely devoid of intelligence and individuality. They work together as best they're aware (proximity matters) with no strife between them whatsoever. They don't feed on eachother, they don't quarrel, and they universally adopt the most simplistic of hierarchies. They feed on aether to persist and to multiply. In death the strongest among them possess the nearest living body, aetherically unchanged. The only exception to any of this is Vauthry who is the opposite equivalent to Zero.
Voidsent have no harmony, are inherently selfish, they are as intelligent as they can physically sustain, are considerably open to turning on one another, they feed purely for their own sake and can become stronger in so doing. On destruction the strongest among them are prone to dissolve into the disparate parts they had compiled within them, and vulnerable to being consumed themselves.
Both are functionally the same as those tempered who have been so heavily exposed they are physiologically changed and thus impossible to bring back into balance, with the slight but significant difference of being altered not in elemental composition but in polaric nature.
And the memoriates changing people into voidsent (thanks for the reminder) is more akin to making said tempered thralls than making primals. Rather... that's exactly what they were doing, creating armies of astrally aligned thralls to fight for them.
Something that I found interesting is the Fact that Zero and the memoriates also can transform beings into crystals. I wonder if this was a power the Ascians taught them before the flood of darkness.
This can happen, because last scene of Golbez seem like he kill one of Ancient.
@@justaman381 Yeah, It looks like he kills the Watcher, doesn't it? Maybe trying to free one piece of Zodiark but then things didn't go according to their plan
This isn't really a theory, but just pointing something out: When Lahabrea goes to tear his emotions away, Athena smiles. The camera work specifically does a close up of her face to show her going from a disappointed scowl, to a small smile. Which to me means she most definitely had a back up plan ready should Lahabrea disagree with her actions. Meaning she made plans with this outcome in mind. She knew her train of thought would corrupt anyone who feels it and knew Lahabrea would merge with her. Though she failed in corrupting him entirely, she succeeded in sealing her chances of success
I feel like there is something we all might be forgetting about when it comes to Lahabrea, his literal mask shown in the flashback and the promotional art for Pandæmonium is torn in half and don't see if his whole mask is on with the older looking Lahabrea. From arr to hw his mask was fully completed, at some point after the story of the second raid tier to the end of days. Either he willingly thought or persuaded to bring his other half back in but Hephaistos and/or Athena took more control than he thought to turn out like this. Did he think he had the will power to fully control the madness of his other half or something around that and failed or are the two minds constantly fighting to cause current Lahabrea? Who knows at this point but theory craft.
I like this theory, because there's a possibility that after the world was sundered, he himself was not as strong as Elidibus and Emet-Selch despite being unsundered. So he possibly could've merged with his emotions to become whole, only to lose himself to the crazy of Athena
"Dig in, pull back the skin
See what's inside you, the sickness that drives you"
"Scream all you want, 'cause we're all mad here"
I'm pretty sure the "disease" and "madness" in the lyrics of Pandaemonium's music is Athena herself. She might even be part of Pandaemonium itself, there's a giant goddamn eyeball looking down at the Eighth Circle. Eyes make a somewhat prominent appearance in this tier, from the fledgling at the start to Agdistis and Hephaistos being covered in eyes. I think it's some sort of indication that Athena is always present and watching.
Might also explain why Proto-Carbuncle is fought in the "toxin infusion" section of the facility, Athena could be a figurative or very literal poison, driving anyone who comes into contact with her(essence?) mad.
But that's all just tinfoil hatting for now.
No matter how it ends I know that the writing team will do a stellar job in finishing the story. They never disappoint with how they weave things together. One of the few studios I still trust with that task.
Question: Who's, or what's, eye ball is that floating in the background on the P8(S) arena?
Behind Eric in the middle between the tubes with Helix's, and then up in the sky (clouds)?
That eye is clearly observing the events the whole time.
I haven't read all the other comments, but one other thing:
I'm pretty sure that Hyde!Hephaistos is the primary personality of the Lahabrea we fought in ARR/HW for one specific reason: the music during his fight is a remix/mashup of other musical themes relevant to modern Lahabrea, including the ARR Ascian theme and the Ultima theme-- you know, the one where the live-version English lyrics are specifically from Lahabrea's point of view. (His one form even looks like a biological Ultima!)
I did also notice the Claudius and Ericthonius appearance similarities during the first tier. I and some others had thought that meant he was a shard of Ericthonius or related to him in some other way. We'll see if our theories prove true in the final tier!
The worst part in all of this is that we’ll have to wait about 8 months for the last part TT^TT
Great video. You should de these kind of discussions more!
Also one thing to point out and keep in mind is Elidibus. In His cutscenes in SB he says "I made a promise to.. someone" and he probaply refers to WoL or someone in Pandæmonium raid. But he is not affected by Kairos so why does he not remember us and what is the promise he makes to "Someone".
Zodiark.
Him becoming zodiark seems to have messed with his head. IIRC this was even brought up, him being affected by the “desire” of those that summoned him(/Zodiark)
@@zacross8504 This^^ His memories start to fall apart after he withdraws from Zodiark, and he refuses to look at his crystal to restore them. If you're on about the scene before Seat of Sacrifice, his promise is to guide the star on it's right course, and I personally believe he promised it to Azem before they defected. All we know about those two is that they were good friends, and Azem has some kind of power to see into the future. (they forsaw us coming to Elpis to help him with Panda)
They wouldn't have named the raid Pandemonium without a direct reference to FF2, it would be an awful shame not to include the King/Emperor of Hell as a boss in the final wing (with music). Also expecting a reference to Garland from FF9 (which is highly relevant to artificial beings and soul infusion and Pandemonium (which was also a reference to FF2 in that game))
Haven’t got to do the new raids yet, will be tackling that this evening! Looking forward to coming back to this video afterwards 😛👍
Pandaemonium Abyssos aka Family Therapy (Ex)!
I think you might be onto something. IF Erichthonios really is the combination of Athena's and Hephaistos's/Lahabrea's essence, then that means Eric's sundered shards also hold part of Athena's soul. Athena probably made a fake crystal to lure us and Claudien towards eventually resurrecting her. That's why Claudien was lured to Azys Lla, the sword that absorbed Lahabrea's essence is still there according to one of the level 90 role quests (I may be misremembering but I distinctly recall that being the case).
That's why she had that smile on her face just before being killed by Lahabrea. And that's why Pandemonium reappeared after Claudien disappeared. He merged with Lahabrea, and the crystal subsequently restored not Eric's or Lahabrea's memories, but Athena's. And Athena subsequently restored Pandemonium to continue her obsession in the present day.
And then we have the case of Lahabrea's mask being complete in the present day. He possibly merged back with Hephaistos either sometime before or possibly sometime after the Sundering. That would explain why Lahabrea in the past feels so different from the one in the future, while others like Emet and Azem at least in some way resemble our ancient selves.
All I have to say is that I'm excited for more videos like this from you, keep them coming
I suspect the research made by Athena is what eventually allowed the ancients to manifest Zodiark using Elidibus.
This is so interesting! It's making the gears turn in my head with some story stuff I've been rotating in my head.
"Our" Lahabrea is the one who taught the tribes of eorzea summoning. MSQ said that when the Ascians taught the people of Eorzea summoning, they did so in a way that they would be tempered by their creation. If Our Lahabrea is Hephaestos, or part Athena, then maybe Athena created the concept of tempering in her hemitheos-creating research and Hephaistos is tempered to her. Erichthonios is (was) tempered to her. Claudien, if he is a shard of Erichthonios, could still be tempered to her. It could have something to do with why the Ascians were tempered by Zodiark when they created him. (Interesting implications for the idea of Elidibus becoming- volunteering to become, even- the Heart of Zodiark when he was summoned. Athena wanted to combine a soul with the created life of a god. Themis was down here investigating with us. Does this have something to do with the mysterious Heart of Sabik our Lahabrea raved about wrt the Ultima Weapon?)
Also, when Hydaelyn sundered the star, she said she left space for Hades and Elidibus to escape, and that Lahabrea also scampered out while that door was open. So what if "good" Lahabrea was sundered, and "bad" Hephaistos is "our" Lahabrea, which is why when he taught the tribes to summon, his instructions included the method of tempering.
Sabik is the name of a **binary star** in the constellation Ophiuchus.
@@yoimmablob Ophiuchus = the celestial serpent bearer. *brain goes flying*
I believe it is stated that the soul is cleansed of tempering when returned to the lifestream. Thus, it is highly likely that Claudien would have any residual tempering (But that's not to say that the crystal wouldn't have enough power to effect a small tempering by itself. After all, the WoL uses theirs to summon the dead, and to bring friends around for battle, so it certainly can store some magic)
Great video Jesse. I do have one question I can’t reconcile. Once Athena and Lahabrea soul meld, wouldn’t Lahabrea become fully aware of everything Athena had planned and done? There shouldn’t be any secrets left between the two. So Lahabrea should have known about the second Hephaestus body, her plans for the future, etc.
In the 8th circle fight, the second form Heph takes resembles the mythological description and ancient artwork of Erichthonius first king of Athens, as a man with the body of a dragon.
Let's not forget how the devs have actually said recently that there's someone important to the raid story that we haven't met yet, and that the last tier is gonna be an emmotional rollercoaster. I'm not big brain enough to guess who it is, but it would be nice to see more of the Convocation.
Also I 100% agree that Claudien is likely a shard of Ericthonius, and that he's being summoned to Azys Lla by Lahabrea's essence (which is still inside Ascalon, which we know was abandoned in the Aetherochemical research facility and still remains there.)
There’s also an eye in the background of that last scene with the DNA strands!
I had noticed that as well. Anyone that wants to look can go back to the area and see that it is still there. It moves, squints, and seems alive and as if watching us. Even more interesting is that a very similar looking eye appears in a different part of the patch.
That last area we get access too is called something like the Stygian Insenescence Cell.
Senescence is a term in biology relating to the cells and their deterioration, loss of growth, or ability to divide as they age. Insenescene would be the opposite of this, so pretty much immortality.
When Scarmiglione uses his glyph to resurrect the other voidsent, the center of the gylph is an eye with the same shape and characteristics.
This often overlooked eye is surely going to play a role in the story.
I have a theory that our Lahabrea is the Shoebill and it freed Hephaistos, in order to kidnap Claudien (Erichthonios sundered self) while we are busy in the past.
from the Triple Triad Card you get from the P8 boss, it states that an unknown force liberated him from the deepest circle. However, this "force" is not identified in the cutscenes or questioned on how Hephaistos broke free. I personally believe that "force" is our Lahabrea, this is due to after defeating a primal the aether they consume/absorb is dissipated, this would have allowed Hephaistos to go undetected by the Eldibus and Emit as they would have been looking for a larger pool of aether instead. This small amount of aether would have been following the WoL, in an attempt to find Erichthonios in secret. He was able take form by the time of ShadowBringers and choose a shoebill, as it was always in it the background and had to be found (working in the shadows), it was an unknown creation in Elpis and even Meteion explained her powers in front of the bird, so it knew what to do in order to prevent itself from being found out. Even in the side quest in Elpis the Shoebill can be found "staring at the abyss" (note this was before Pandaemonium) giving the researchers the feeling like it was defected enough to maybe get placed in Pandaemonum, as it was an unknown creation. Also, the quote on the shoebill minon says "Love can move a shoebill" just like how Lahabrea wanting to know if Athenia truely loved him, accepted the fusion offer.
Wife and I had a few interesting theories-
One, was that we know “our” lahabrea was the “weakest” of the unsundered, the others explain it is due to his body hopping, but what if its ACTUALLY because he self-sundered in pandemonium so hes a 50/50 sunder instead of a 1/14th sunder like the rest.
The other theory we had, is what if “our” lahabrea that does crazy bull, laughs maniacally, etc. Is the Hephestaus half and “old” lahabrea is trapped in the crystal due to machinations. Semi random, but a thing that catches me is that the red lahabrea crystal that hephestaus is sealed in is fandaniel-red. It could be entirely possible that in his shady experiments, amon-fandaniel did -something- to lahabrea in asyz la, and on getting him back they’re like “yay we have lahabrea back” but hephaestus just cackles maniacally and goes “yes! I, lahabrea, will do evil stuff now to merge all the souls into one soul so i can have athena, i mean zodiark!”
To be fair, Shadowbringers already had begun to portray Lahabrea in a different light, as a highly respected and brilliant researcher who was the mastermind behind many incredible creations. There was also a flashback of him as a concerned friend of Elidibus.
The fact that Emet didn't seem to so much as bat an eye at Lahabrea's death makes me think he had little attachment to whatever form he was. Given his madness and highly differing personality, I would venture to guess it was definitely the "evil" half of his soul. Emet already saw that Lahabrea had messed with his own soul, so he understood and possibly was responsible for helping him escape the Sundering.
Very interesting - at the very least you've shown things I never noticed or thought of. This was super cool to watch and think about!
One thing I'll note is that when the Greek myth of Ericthonios, in at least a few of the versions, when they don't just say "it fell to the earth", they mention Gaia.
Personally I don't expect Gaia to be involved in this "retelling" as it were, but I'd love if they did.
Also of note is that, in the caster role quests for endwalker, the sword Ascalon which housed one of the eyes and that Thordan used to absorb Lahabrea's essence, was infused with aether in an attempt to revive Thordan. I'm super curious if completing those role quests will score you extra dialogue in the final raid tier.
Okay, my mind is blown by some of the connections you made. I haven't played the older Final Fantasies, so I don't always catch a lot of the references that are made. Not sure which theory seems most plausible, but I definitely picked up on the awkward silence about when Eric was born, and the comment about reassessing his assumptions about the mask. This whole tier of the raid was incredibly fascinating and hooked me from the very start. I'm so, so invested in how this story turns out.
I love Jesse's thoughts and theories about FFXIV lore. The true secrets of Pandaemonium could be one of the biggest mysteries of FFXIV yet to discover. Very much like a certain Gaint Man in the Ocean.
A lot of interesting theories. I just figured somehow emotional Hephaestos was the Lahabrea we'd been fighting in ARR-HW, and the logical, "true" Lahabrea had been lost to the Ascians.
There is little piece of information that lost in translation, you see on Japanese voice everytime Emet refereing to Lahabrea he alwasy use "that Lahabrea gramps" meanwhile on Eng dub and sub Emet only refer as "that Lahabrea" because we know Hades and Erich look like same age and Venat who are said twice as old as Emet still pretty much look young, so Lahabrea must be astronomically older than every ancient we meet, so for me Erich becoming Lahabrea we know doesn't make any sense to begin with, even before Abyssos was released
This sounds VERY plausible to me, would love to see this unfold in game
It's worth pointing out that Hephaistos's voice actor in the Eighth circle boss fight is the same voice actor as Lahabrea exactly
I wonder if Igeyorhm is gonna play a bigger part not only in the MSQ (since she caused the whole 13th Void incident thing to happen) but also here in the Pandaemonium raids as well. Elidibus mentioned that both Emet-Selch and Igeyorhm were suspicious regarding Lahabrea's demeanor after he split his emotions and cast it away. Fast forward to Heavensward MSQ when we saw Lahabrea fusing with Igeyorhm(complete with the same animation Hephaistos did with Athena when they soulmelded). It'd be nice if we learn more about her.
Athena is definitely an interesting character in the story. We never get to interact with her, and all of our information of her only comes from second-hand knowledge from others. I wonder if, based on her research obsession, Athena had a hand in the introducing how tempering works, or how Ascians are able to avoid returning to the aetherial sea so they linger around until they find bodies to inhabit. Even if it's not her, maybe one of the Lahabrea's were able to finish what she started.
Side tangent, but I wonder if the story of this raid will somehow have a tie-in with the ongoing Alliance raid story too. Other than the mythic creations, 3 of the bosses we fought so far are basically demigods, which are different yet might be related to the Twelve gods we meet in Aglaia. Just a thought.
Anyways, great video Jesse. There's definitely some interesting theories here to ponder for the next months. Even of it's all speculation, I'm always curious to see the thought processes of youtubers/twitch streamers when they theorycraft, regardless of whether or not it ends up being incorrect in the future.
I am having SUCH A hard time in the ff14 lore with who and what the ascians are through the time line. .and who they possess! Would it be possible for you maybe, to make a lore series about each ascian? Because you tell history SO well! Maybe then it would actually stick in my brain!
One thing that has bugged me is that the crystal that Lahabrea has in his hand with the Pisces zodiac sign is crimson. But when finding the crystals in Amaurot, the crystal with the Pisces symbol is Blue, not Turquoise.
The Turquoise crystal contains the Zodiac sign for Aquarius in Amaurot.
The constellation stones were used by the convocation of fourteen to remember who they were.
But why would that be necessary?
I think this was to help them regain their memories if they died and needed to be ressurected or remade.
I feel the memory altering device Kairos and the research of Athena with splitting of the soul is essential to this.
I really think that the Twelve were created by the convocation of fourteen.
And that the reason they appeared after Hydaelyn was defeated was because she had bound Zodiark (The Thirteenth god) and the other Twelve.
This adds up if you see the elemental sequence and nature of the calamities.
Lahabrea and Athena's research circles around the ability to quote "breakdown the boundary between souls."
The Echo is also the power to transcend the boundaries of the soul.
This lines up SO well with the upcoming Void series where literal souls are merged into Voidsent by being devoured. This would allow us to A> cure the voidsents by dividing them into their original souls, perhaps even cure sineaters. B> This would also allow us to seperate Zero into Zero and Zemus. Because she is half voidsent, there is huge implications about the future and Zeromus. But yes, all of this ties together in neat little bows and is amazing :)
Comments missed it, saw it mentioned when Preach played through. There is also a giant eye in the sky of P8.
Something I thought about after seeing how Hephaestus was sealed into that soul crystal is that it looks exactly like the ones we saw made for the Convocation of Fourteen during the Shadowbringers patch series. This raises serious concerns when you take into consideration that prolonged life without using the soul crystal to refresh aspects of yourself results in significant mental degradation. Even more so given Lahabrea's penchant for secrecy and the fact that only Elidibus and Erichthonios are aware the twisted personality crystal exists. It's a reasonably strong possibility that the latter was killed during the Final Days given his overall lack of magical potency, and Elidibus was in Zodiark for an (as far as I'm aware) unspecified amount of time - potentially enough time for his less foundational memories to become compromised.
I know it would seem almost cliche, but it would also be appropriately tragic if at some point Lahabrea's own comrades accidentally restored his memories from the wrong crystal, unknowingly granting the Hephaestus personality a new body. Maybe the "mental degradation" is in fact an act, and he body hopped so frequently to both attempt to gain power from merging with other organisms (like their research proposed), as well as to act as cover for the more erratic and emotional behavior should Emet Selch and Elidibus question things. It also makes me wonder if Elidibus's refusal to use the soul crystals to refresh himself may be due to the Pandaemonium events and some suspicion that all was not actually right with Lahabrea. He may have had a lingering paranoia that his own crystal was corrupted in some way, and thought that as long as he could remember his mission, losing memories was less dangerous than being turned into something else.
With the above said, it doesn't explain how Pandaemonium has appeared in present day in the Aetherial Sea. It definitely could be more of the sleeper agent theory in the video, or something entirely different that we'd never expect, given how often they've surprised us in the past. I guess we'll find out in about 8 months!
I feel like Athena might still be a player in this game. It seems like she's the true villain, really.
This would absolutely explain why it's Elidibus that is there in Pandaemonium with us, as foundation for his mistrust of the soul crystals.
so we got Limbo armor from Asphodelos, Purgatory armor from Abyssos. I speculate the next armor set is probably Paradise or something like that?
Are we just glossing over the fact that Lahabrea encountered some kind of epistemological virus / cognitohazard within Athena's soul that was terrifying enough for him to not only decide to rip his soul apart, but to ALSO consider "nuke the facility from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" as the best option open to him. And that it seems strongly implied that this amputation of his self likely only delayed the corruption.
Pandemonium: appears in altiascope
Sharlian researchers: *heavy excited breathing*
I find it rather funny right now, we have the raids in the equivalent of Olympus, and the raid equivalent of the hells Asphodelus, and Abyssos, I wouldn't be surprised if the last circles are Tartarus, or if there's a strange twist Elysium.
As an aside I read somewhere that in some left overs from pre-ARR there is something beneath the lake in Mor Dhona. With the "Heavens" above Mor Dhona, the place underneath could possibly be related to Pandaemonium, though given it's in the Astral Sea I doubt it, unless it's what remains of where it used to be.
That was such good explanation for the Pandemonium story! I had such a hard time following it in game, kind of missed most of it tbh. At first they didn't have any voice acting in the story, even though raid stories don't usually have voice acting, they have now increased production values to the game so they could have included them this time. Additionally, the story was told rather poorly, they expected everyone remembered these characters from their past, no flashbacks or anything what happened previously or who they represent. I knew Lahabrea but everyone else was a huge mystery with very difficult to follow hard to read names.. it was such a mess even though the story might have been good.
14:16 Woah they're creating the protagonist of Fire Emblem: Engage in the background
I finished Pandemonium a couple weeks ago, and its interesting to see what bits you got right.
If anything, I'm just glad I got so far as to see that Claudien is most likely Erichthonius' shard version.
Jesse's like looking up ancient Greek texts.
Me: That's a Carbuncle?! Ha ha, it big!
Heyhey coming here straight from Belular's video!
Hit me with that good stuff!
14:10 So I'm not crazy right, there's definitely a giant eye in the sky
I spotted it in game just as I teleported away
Did anyone notice when we summon allies into the final fight the color is red when it was previously blue for all the previous fights?
Great video! I don't know how it'll happen, but I have a feeling that the raid story is definitely setting up something that'll effect the here and now in a big way. I even wonder if we're seeing an elaborate set up for Lahabrea's return in the present, for a *real* final battle with him which we never really got with him unlike Elidibus and Emet Selch.
Plus some things of note: We don't know if Lahabrea was truly destroyed or killed. His physical being was, but we don't know if he ever really returned to the lifestream for proper Ascian death. The game suggests no, and that his essence was absorbed by Thordan. We assumed at the time that that's that, but maybe this raid and all subsequent Ascian lore since will change that?
The other thing is that given what we've found out about the Ascians since Heavensward was new....wouldn't Lahabrea have memories of the WoL from Pandaemonium? Whatever iteration of Lahabrea turns out to be the "one" we know, they've seen us. I know it'd be retroactive lore, but will there maybe be a reason for why Lahabrea wouldn't immediately recognize us, as either ourselves or at least as a shard of Azem during ARR? Or maybe he did, but kept that info to himself as part of some insane, galaxy brained multi era spanning scheme?
I don't know but its interesting! Plus in Japanese, the og Lahabrea was voiced by Shuichi Ikeda aka Char Aznable, so he's gotta have a big scheme!
Bread has a line that goes something like “I kept the crystal of hepastios in case anything happened to my soul.”
Maybe Bead’s soul did get sliced like a loaf and he had to use the crystal to restore his soul but his logical side was only at 1/14 power of the emotional side and it overtook him.
@@CanadianYeti69 pretty sure its in one of the tales of, on the lodestone that Venat protected lahabrea, emet-selch and elidibus from being sundered
@@CanadianYeti69 Emet Selch evaded the sundering because Venat didn't want to sunder him since he needs to play his part for the future she knows. Elidibus was not sundered because he was already inside and the heart of Zodiark. The only question is Lahabrea which we will most likely know here.
I think another big plot twist coming is that Golbez will turn out to be Emperor Xande, making the plot of the next expac the Voidsent invading the Source as some sort of twisted void/allagan empire resurgence
so wat I got from 6.2 was this :
Ascians are Organization 13,
Lahabrea has an evil Nobody and
Erichtonois may be Lahabrea's Heartless,
Athena is Xehanort trying to get xblade power with knowledge,
putting alittle bit of herself into everyone under her so everyone is now Xehanort.
yes its all clear now thanks Jesse.
You didn't even mentioned the weird EYE that shows up in the last boss room :D (Zepla' has a short clip on it )
I fully agree that Erik is a clone of lahabread created by Athena.
Who was OUR Laha, however....jury's still out :D can't wait to see
All of the ascian mask symbols have connections to the esper glyphs - Mateus is connected to Lahabrea - so it's just doubling down on the Lahabrea (false?) clues
Good to having you here so we can theorize together!
Edit: I'm still trying to figure out how Azem knew that the WoL is going to appear and help Themis/Elidibus.
Well, we know that Venat told Azem about us. (Their reaction was that they were "amused" that a familiar familiar was running around Elpis). It could be one of two things: they sent the distress crystal that brought us back here (unlikely given what we know and what we suspect about that Sky Blue, Unmarked Crystal), or they thought "if I know me, I tend to have a habit of showing up exactly when I'm needed," and guessed.
Well we now know for sure Azem is aware of us. He knows your WoL, or at least knows enough about him, probably from Venat. And so sees you as a powerful ally.
@@ericbright1742 There's also the long game theory that the Azem all the ancients know is actually us at the end of our journey, fulfilling one giant closed loop. None of the other users of the echo that we're aware of have been able to see future events. Venat even explains in Elpis that the flashes of people's history you've been getting all along are you reading and interpreting the aether of an area or person to see events that have already happened. But that doesn't explain how we can see things that HAVEN'T happened yet. A closed time loop on the other hand, where our soul remembers everything that's ever happened to us, and we're effectively getting "deja vu" flashbacks of it as it's happening again in the loop, would explain things. Of course that does create a bootstrap paradox, but I think it would be very fun if by the time the game finally comes to an end we've fully rebuilt our fractured soul, and finally remember or realize that we have to travel back in time to keep the loop in motion so that the world stays safe.
@@HawkEyeTS Bojza has a character whose Echo grants them foresight.
@@ericbright1742 Hrm, I either must have missed that, or haven't gotten to it in Bozja, as I'm not very far into the story there. But honestly it doesn't really make sense as an ability of the echo given how it's been described as various applications of reading the aether. Unless you turn to like a Final Fantasy VII lifestream style interpretation of the aether, where everything that ever has happened or will happen is known by "soul" of the planet, and you're reading into that aspect of it.
I'm glad you get to join us finally, because this video was great!
After a few years of sitting on it. I decided with this patch to make content on RUclips and stream on twitch, and I am excited as well yo make vids as well!
"You can see Ericthonius glow blue just like them when they fuse" In this holographic projection where everyone is glowing blue because it's a recreation of the events
"You see this blue blank crystal is the color of Lahabrea's" which is... red
he devs were very clever with this update, because they gave us additional angles on merging souls - when we visited the 13th. We had examples of souls merging and a sense of self mixing up (the cowards that fed on each other) and an example of maintaining one's self (Zero).
Okay *damn* I had not considered this possible angle and this makes me *really* excited for the finale!
Man, there is so much this patch to unpack and I am here for it. This was a great video, thanks Jesse!
The first thought I had regarding the split selves of Lahabrea / Hephestus was that he managed to SUNDER HIMSELF. And the Lahabrea we know from the present was known to be a bit nuts. We also know from 6.2 that merging of souls can cause even the stronger of the two souls to start to lose itself, and that is why Zero spent so much time meditating, to ensure she never lost sight of her own identity.
Split in half lahabrea is half weakened to start with. Adding in a chunk of Athena's mind, combined with the body hopping, could definitely explain why he was off his rocker by the time ARR rolled around.
It might also explain why Hydalaen's sundering failed on Lahabrea in particular - he'd already sundered himself and dodged the spell!
I never noticed the mateus symbol on the belt, thats cool
Hey, just wanna point something that i haven't seen anyone talk about.
SPOILER it has to do with a sentence that is said by Hephaistos during the second phase of P8S : when we create the concept of Phoenix, Hephaistos says : "Yes... Hehehe... At last !". This sentence totally shocked me, i mean, why would he actually be happy that we survive by creating the concept of Phoenix? Maybe because that was his and Athena's goal from the start : the ultimate power, Phoenix life control. And i think that's one of the whole point of Pandaemonium itself : Phoinix is a failed attempt to create the actual Phoenix. And the goal of Athena would be to fuse with a Phoenix to get its life powers. I mean, we've seen a lot of fusing in Pandaemonium, like Hesperos with some kind of vampire, Agdistis with a tree etc... I'm really thinking that the last boss of Pandaemonium might be Athena fused with Phoenix.
And on another side, i feel like this would make some kind of link with FF9 Pandaemonium : one of the 2 Phoenix that we've seen in FF14 was Suzaku, whose human form actually is totally similar to the final boss of FF9, trance Kuja... And my secret hope is that, if the final boss of Pandaemonium would be some kind of Kuja Athena, then in the savage mode, the second phase would actually be the true final boss of FF9, Necron, who has one of the best boss music ever... Let me dream people.
It just gets me going bro! I'm remembering that scene where Lahabrea and Elidibus are talking and Laha says something to the effect of "All is going according to my will!" Followed up by Elidibus saying "....his will"( meaning zodiark) so..Who knows maybe the emperor from ff2 will show up if memory serves he was also split and had something to do with Mateus.
Yes!! Loved to hear your theory crafting and thoughts on the ffxiv story!!
I love seeing Jesse Cox theory crafting, like when he, Im pretty sure if memory serves since Cataclysm Beta, made theory videos on WoW lore too. And seeing myself transition into ff14 for 90 % of the time now with my favorite creator since I was growing up. Best, shiz, ever.
I didnt realize how much there was, but I did notice the DNA styel helix things behind the last boss I thought the red and blue was too weird to be a coincidence. Jesse in part inspired me to be a fantasy writer making my own worlds and stories, being a Roleplayer on WoW eversince also helped that but you're part of the reason I kept going with that passion. Your lessons as a history teacher "always ask 'why?'" always stuck to me among other ones.
KEEP the theories of FFXIV coming COX!
I am unsure why you feel that Erich being our Lahabread is completely debunked? I can still see that as a possibility, why would it not be?
It was stated that Lahabrea lost his mind from swapping bodies to often.
Interesting also to note, the research was described in a way that kinda made me think Athena was looking into attaining a state that sounds exactly like how the Ascians work. That is, that they're mostly disembodied souls possessing other bodies. Themis said that that kinda thing was beyond them at that time. Whatever other questions and answers there are, I think somehow Lahabrea comes to learn how to do that (or already knows if its Athena or Hephaistos in control), and teaches Emet-Selch and Elidibus once the sundering begins. Maybe they would've done it with the other Ascians too, but they might've just not had time. Who knows though, we've only got to wait uh, the better part of a year. welp.
From being cold, calculating, and disregarding everything outside from their own goals, I think the Lahabrea that we saw in ARR is Athena, not the actual Lahabrea from Pandemonium. It’s as you said: Lahabrea is just a seat name. Anyone out there with that knowledge prior can take that position and call themselves that either by being appointed to it or simply making themselves with their extensive knowledge and playing the part. I think the latter is a possibility since Athena knows her husband and was obsessed with their research that she used him as a tool. Lahabrea was also shown to merge with another to form a powerful being in HW. If we’re to believe the real Lahabrea, then it is most likely Athena or someone that has fallen prey to Athena. Remember that Emet has taken up Solus years prior and acted as emperor to the Garlean empire, so that wouldn’t surprise me if Athena did the same and just simply used someone’s body for her own gain and goal
So as far as I can tell, Elidibus was the one who managed to protect himself and the other two Unsundered from the final attack by Hydaelyn. A tragic occurance altogether because I feel that it was his doing that Hydaelyn got the upper hand in their struggle to begin with.
The reason being that as far as we've been told they were evenly matched, fought for a very long time and suddenly She got the upper hand to land her blow. What we hear from Elidibus after his final defeat was that he was needed, The Emmissary. His friends were argueing about the fate of the Star so he UNBOUND himself from Zodiark. In doing this removing perhaps just enough power from the Primal to allow Him to be defeated.
Elidibus then safeguarded Emet-Selch and Lahabrea, two people he cared a lot for as in the short stories we learn that he looks up to Emet-Selch (and Azem) and Lahabrea was the 'Convocation Speaker' (literally the job of the title, the Speaker) that kept showing up in his memories.
Now, after the Calamity the three needed something to sustain themselves. The memory crystals were an aid for the Unsundered to both keep a hold of themselves over the many aeons and to uplift those shards of their colleagues that they could find into being 'themselves' again. Even if just a shard of a soul I would assume that this knowledge-transfer came with a ritual that would also embue them with enough Aether to BE an Ascian. Otherwise they would probably be useless.
The FIRST thing that I noticed is that the memory crystal that Lahabrea sealed Hephaistus into was EXACTLY like the ones used for this purpose, it even had the starsign carved into it.
I feel that the Lahabrea that was saved from Calamity was indeed the one we met in Pandaemonium. However, having this other crystal on him over the millennia might've slowly corrupted him into being more of the Lahabrea that we eventually met. Then again... Cold and calculating, all for 'The Duty to the Star' it feels like he may just have absolutely no moral objection to using these lesser lives as discardable tools and bodies. Just his logical self corrupted with the Tempering by Zodiark. This red crystal with Hephaistus in it, though, may still have been on his person after all these years. And we know from the way that Urianger found Ardberts old Crystal it could have survived having been consumed into the Ascian Prime or fell to the ground when Lahabrea was killed and used to feed Ascalon.
I do think you are on to something about a shard of Eric now being called to Azys-La and I think he most definitely found the red shard. And not even knowing how to defend himself from it, has already been consumed by Hephaistus.
I want to know, though, whether or not we'll actually go into the past to talk to Themis and past-Lahabrea about this before or after we go into resurrected Pandaemonium. And what will we find there to battle?
I am thinking our door boss for P9 is going to be Hesperos again. We didn't defeat or imprison him, he fled.
P10 is a wild-card.
P11 Hephaistus/Lahabrea reborn
P12 Athena resurrected with optional P12S phase 2, Athena perfected. Merged with Hephaistus or something like how Diabolos did at the end of the Mhach raids.
Athena's obsession straight up saved the star from the Endsinger.
Venat will learn to sunder from Laha who did it to himself because of Athena.
Combining souls would become a skill used to create Zodiark -
- but not just Zodiark, because Laha will survive the sundering thanks to his soul joining with Athena and Emet will survive the sundering thanks to a sacrificial joining by Hytholadeus. 😢 That's why he seems to be self aware in Amaurot.
Lowkey thought this was gonna be a joke about the evil carby being Tatarus. But this is fun this is way more fun !
I notice you didn't mention the giant eye in the sky of P8's arena. Very reminiscent of the Invincible from FF9
From a pure FFXIV perspective, the presence of pandaemonium inside our aetherial sea is bizarre.
It's literally 'heaven' and hell together. I doubt they will explore heaven/hell of each entity from the Twelve so we may stuck to the generic aetherial sea (if you don't know, each entity from the Twelve has a particular paradise and hell, i still like the idea of Nald'Thal playing a role on Pandaemonium or 13th).
The "average" Etheirys citizen doens't have the same knowledge that we have about the inner works of the world. I really want to see what will happen beyond Pandaemonium.
To quote crystal mom "A entanglement begins between your time and mine"
Great video. One of the things that I want to know is why there is a giant red eye in the background of P8.
I don't think the red/blue are alluding to DNA. It's not a DNA helix structure. But I do think the twisting is an important detail.
I suspect white-haired Lahabrea isn't the one we end up with in ARR, and also definitely believe that Ericthonios was created and not born, but I don't have a lot of spare time lately to dig into lore and don't really want to attach myself too much to any possibility. I'll just go along for the ride haha
I'm pretty sure Jesse is on the money. I never caught the mateus symbol detail.
i am glad i am not the only one to see the parallel with ff2 being referenced in pandemonium lol lahabrea is definately in the same sorta ordeal as emperor mateus was a split soul with one ruling the kingdom of hell and the other a kingdom of heaven.
and i betcha anything we'll get fights to allude to that xD we just fought a lahabrea in "hell" so maybe the next time we fight him it will be in a "heaven" of sorts which would make sense as well cause Athena wanted to cross that boundary between man and the divine and perhaps she predicted this outcome all along and she was feigning ignorance when she said she was "disappointed" when in actuallity she was actually relieved cause everything went according to her plan and Ericthonius was just the bait to lure in Lahabrea so she could taint his soul and have that soul carry on her will her legacy etc
I don't if anyone thought about this but, isn't what Thordan did similar to a voidsent eating another? If so, by killing Thordan wouldn't we have released Lahabrea's soul back like the voidsent, so that it could reform itself? Thus the whole thing with Lahabrea luring Claude.
When Lahabrea awakens the Ultima Weapon in ARR, he calls it, and the spell Ultima "A sliver of Zodiark's power". Ericthonius, being the apparently prototype Ascian Supersoldier may have been part of the roadmap to creating Zodiark. My theory is that Lahabrea and Athena turn Ericthonius into either The Heart of Sabik, or Ultima Weapon, similar to what we saw in The Sorrow of Werlyt. If I were a betting moogle, I'd put a sizable bet on Ultima Weapon being the final boss of Pandaemonium.
Interesting theory! I am curious if we will see it there as well, but I also feel we may see Ultima Weapon again in the 13th due to its prototype being in Dun Scaith.
Great vid.
Not sure about claudien being a shard of lahabrea, i thought Lahabrea was unsundered. But its interesting nonetheless. I guess it depends on who is actually "our" lahabrea, if it was the same lahabrea, or if its erichtonios or hephaistos.
But the red crystal (or whatever it has become) is possibly in Azys La, Claudien says the blue crystal was "calling for his other half", or something similar, right?
I feel like like we'll be have to deal with some life stream shenanigans now that Hydaelyn isn't there to keep a watch over things.