I’m not a big Ezra fan but I’ll watch this out of curiosity and now I’m fascinated in watching two people communicate who have two completely different styles of talking
I love how Malcolm clearly isn't interested in winning anything here. he is interested in different point of view. if he doesnt agree, he has choices, he can drill a bit, or he can search for a unifying thread, or he can throw in a neutral observation that can hang in the air between them (and the audience) and let people absorb what they will. an offering. its almost like an entire lack of rhetorical chasedown, but still a power to describe and portray a little koan or sorts that curveballs anyone who has memorised the typical talking points in order to win an argument.
My favorite part is when Gladwell goes on a tangent about Jordan Peterson's identity and his great presence during interviews, and how he's got an amazing living room. And then Ezra Klein is wondering "why the hell are we talking about this guy and not about my book". haha
That's one of the things I love about Malcolm Gladwell, he is deeply curious and actually listens to people even when he disagrees with a lot of what they believe. He refuses to just do a total character assassination of Jordan Peterson. Klein comes across as petty and partisan by comparison.
Malcolm really was an fun 'moderator' since he goes off on tangents (but still loops back to the point). I liked learning that we're polarised because ghosts play guitar. ;) I found the whole talk pretty entertaining.
I found it odd that Malcom questions why people that are quite interested in politics or even involved have a tough time talking with each other or making a case for a position and listening to the opposing case when sports fans of opposing teams, or even of extreme rival teams can talk about sports for hours no problem. Isn't it pretty obvious it's because sports are not important? I mean in the way you'll never feel very uncomfortable discussing the weather, tv shows, movies, etc. Those things are entertainment, discussed as water cooler topics. They are not important in the way a law or policy will effects on your health, financial future, the planets future, etc. When you get on an important topic it will always feel uncomfortable and you will probably get pissed one someone doesn't see it like you do.
On an individual level, we don’t really notice policy. Think of everything over the past 5 years that has passed. How is your life any difference? Other than seeing a little more or little less money being taken out it’s virtually like nothing changed. We are just emotionally attached to politics because it has become religion, it has become morality.
amazing. Ezra's insights on how incredibly polarized american culture has become and the political parties have become absolutely distinct is rather terrifying.
My head is spinning, listening to him on the radio, now, (prerecorded), on the Commonwealth Club. Which is it - is it that hyper-identification by individuals is bad, or that it serves a common good. I swear he said both. Of course, the more we break our "identities" down to the level of the proper number of sips to take from a cup, it creates havoc. And he is going on about all of his Tweets., I would appreciate knowing your critique of Klein.
the fake confusion at 45:35...so telling. Ezra couldn't comprehend that Malcom could be praising Jordan. Ezra assumes Malcom must have just changed topics on a dime...give me a break. Guy just needs to be humbled
There’s a huge difference between sport and politics: two basketball fans who are fans of different events opposing teams are still both sport fans, also the stakes of the team winning doesn’t impact you in the way politics is reported to impact you, the identity and what it means to you are totally different.
Oh, now, actually when I was in college in the late 70s, a Psych Prof. pointed out we each sat in the same area of a classroom no matter what room or what subject. Predictive for feeling comfortable. There is something in self selection and location along with owing a place of predictability. Civil war North and South, symbolic exchange, was coffee for tobacco, BTW
Gladwell, here's what's missing in all our structures: A bit of unknowness, an agreement to keep changing, a desire to invest in a story contrary to our goals, just to cover the bases and bring in flexibility. A willingness to build some agility into our futures, to give up stiffened, rigid positions.
I take issue with Ezra describing what Joe Rogan said as transphobic... he literally only said he does not think trans women should compete againt cis women in combat sports. If that is a "horrible" thing to say then you have to ability to think about issues with nuance.
Peterson isn't railing against the establishment, he has argued extensively that hierarchy is natural in humanity. He is against the encroachment of identity politics in political discourse which bothers millions of people throughout the West
A major point Ezra makes is there is no "encroachment of identify politics in political discourse". We've always had identity politics in political discourse but when those politics happen to favor white men, who historically have always been the people in power, then it's not considered identify politics it's just "politics". Now that other races and genders are finally speaking up and pushing for policies that favor them it's suddenly "identify politics" and "bothers millions of people throughout the west?" The truth is all politics is identity politics, it's just a question of what identity is being favored.
@@Spike.SpiegeI exactly-that’s why Ta-Nehisi Coates called Trump “The First White President”. Before the election of Barack Obama, whiteness was just a given.
*35:15** Klein/Vox, please link to the things Rogan has said that are so transphobic and awful. Making that claim casually while not citing direct examples is not transparent, nor fair to Joe. I watch his podcast, and I have no idea what you're referring to.*
Its about using words, not what is meant. Shallow look and (way too) broad stroke. Kind of makes you think, if Klein cant get even that accurately, what else he i is just winging.
Um there are many, and if you don't know that, you don't watch his channel. Just the other day (interview with Bari Weiss) he referred to trans women as "dudes who wacked their dicks off" and "it". Watch his interview with ben shapiro when there are too many to count, but one was when Shapiro defended misgendering trans people, Joe giggled like a s school girl and nodded along through out Shapiro's trans phobic tirade.
@@jdhill4 He said the same things about Sam? (Or about Joe on Sam's podcast?) It just seems like he has no ability to interpret nuance. I get how Sam's statements about Islam, or Joe's statements about trans people in MMA could be grossly misinterpreted negatively, however that isn't how they have said them, at all. But you have to be a real idiot to not understand that.
@@andybaldman Sam Harris had Charles Murray on his podcast a year or two ago. Regardless of what you think of Charles' work, Sam thought he had been treated unfairly. Since Sam discussed the race and IQ thing with Charles, Ezra Klein penned a scathing article about Sam. Of course, Sam was not being a racist and was approaching the issue out of concern. Ezra came on Sam's podcast, and though did not call him a racist, called him a racialist. Sam's usual nuance laced arguments were bouncing off the brick wall of predetermined views of Ezra's mind. That's how it went at least in my opinion and memory.
I am sure Malcom Gladwell writes amusing books, and he certainly has his fans, but the more I listen to this man, the more confused I get. He is a long winded preacher, but II understand neither his point, nor his position. What does this man stand for?
Don't worry Malcolm Gladwell, I know Toronto well and went to the University of Toronto. I know exactly what you're talking about regarding Toronto neighbourhoods around 46:00. I was interested in what you were saying. :)
Oh!...about ghost.....I heard my ukulele playing one night while I was in bed sleeping and I turned the light on to see a little mouse running in and out of the hol
Gladwell is open-minded and curious, except about the most important issues. That’s why the establishment gives him big platforms and high positions on the best-seller lists. He can keep the masses musing on bullshit for hours on end…
I love New York and Boston, the two great American cities I’ve visited on the East Coast. That said, I can definitely relate to Ezra as a fellow Westerner, having lived in Northern California and Northern Nevada. I’ve heard plenty of derisive comments from East Coast transplants throughout my life, telling me how much better things are back East. I’ve always wondered if West Coast people do the same to my good friends on the East Coast, and if not, where this insecurity comes from. I'm fairly certain the majority of Easterners don’t engage in this troll-like behavior. Regardless, it's a question worth asking.
Ezra uses the same simple reductionist polarizing judgements about Jordan Peterson as he describes in his book. Malcolm politely point it out but it is lost on Ezra.
would you say that the analysis of polarization in his book is correct even if he himself falls prey to the ways of thinking he outlines in a negative light? Or do his blind spots render his analysis faulty as well?
It's interesting, that Mr. Klein does not see himself as a "white" or "male" - especially in the context of identities in politics. That was quite the elephant in the room for the first section of the discussion.
Isn't it racists now not to see color? That was the epitome of not being racist 20 years ago. He's way behind the times. Also, I'm not quite certain I disagree with him about not seeing himself as male.
@@jdhill4 Lol, he's not required to see himself as white. What's important is others identify him as white; that's how privilege works. He's going to get the jobs he wants, he'll be allowed to live out his life without fear of incarceration, and he'll write or say anything he wants without suffering significant -- if any -- consequences. There's a reason Ezra Klein will be referencing his time in Obama's administration till the day he dies.
@@rebeccagarcia8259 Yeah, but I'm saying how we see ourselves isn't what matters when you're talking about racism; it's a classificatin that can be the reason one is punished or rewarded. It's especially important if you're at the top of the privilege latter to keep in mind, maybe it's not that you're a good driver why you don't get pulled over much. And on and on.
So, I'm not hearing this Commonwealth Club interview - more like a Klein pulpit - broadcast, wrong, then. And my brain feeling scrambled is the rational response to his utter - hypocrisy? Illogic? Oh. He co-founded Vox. Oh. He is 35 years old. Where would he be without uber-identity, and the internet.
interesting and worrying point at 1.08 - some polarisation is worth it (as a result of political successes) and comes at a cost we can manage. in the wrong hands that could go badly wrong. in the right hands perhaps its merely as he says.
I like Gladwell quite a bit, but did I just hear him say (all be it from a vaguely framed "Canadian" perspective and certainly somewhat in a jest) "no one is listening to him" (Peterson) and that he's "way outside the main stream"? (and I don't think "in Canada" works... considering that wouldn't be true either - and yes, I do realize C16 passed)
semidemiurge I found this very substantive, what would a more substantive discussion look like for you, just out of curiosity, I hope that didn’t sound combative
I think they are very similar but in uniquely different ways. I think Malcolm is just interested in people the way a lovable professor is so interested in studying something unique. Ezra is deeply interested in people but in a more pragmatic sense, aka how do we develop policy that best reflects who we are as human beings. I don't believe they are in conflict here but the tension on the stage comes from a sililar appreciation for the human condition, but very different ways of encountering and interacting with it.
1:09:11 First, California is a disaster in a thousand ways. But the biggest problem here is he basically claims that the "positive path" of California is due to all political parties being in agreement with his perspective in a way that makes opposing positions essentially "sins". And yet he has the gall to be concerned about polarization as though he himself as an individual and the popularity of the above "woke" thought process not a PRIMARY reason for it's escalation.
@JimmyDThing ... California still has plenty of anti-immigration belief in it, as well as whatever else you may encapsulate “sin” in. Ezra’s point is we either fundamentally believe in and support representative democracy or we don’t. When an active enough minority of the electorate, or elected, choose to subvert the majority by changing governance to remain in power it’s not much of a representative democracy anymore.
I think you're missing Ezra's point because you're focused on California's political leanings, which wasn't the point at all. He's talking about the way California went a democratic(small "d" as in pro-democracy) direction and the political parties responded to demographic change by adjusting their message. So for example, you can have a Republican governor even in deep blue states like Massachusetts or California(with Arnold), but those governors will have to ditch the anti-immigration rhetoric. Contrast that to the strategy that Texas is using where rather than competing for voters on the battle of ideas, it is attempting to stop demographics likely to vote Democratic from getting to the polls with various methods of voter suppression in order to ensure that Republicans can win even if they are a voting minority. These are two different directions. So for example, California has taken congressional districting out of the hands of politicians and districts are drawn by neutral independent commission. Texas and other Republican states are going balls to wall on gerrymandering and ensuring Democrats don't have congressional representation. I live in Nashville, one of the few blue islands in a sea of red. The Republicans here are now trying to re-draw the lines in such a way that one of the only couple Democratic congressman here will lose his seat and Nashville will be carved out in such a way that different parts of the city will incorporated into rural districts so that they will be guaranteed to go to Republicans. Nashville is a liberal city, but the state is deeply conservative so now basically we won't even have any representation of our local interests because the Republican strategy rather than fighting for the hearts and minds of voters is to simply legislate their opposition out of power. We only have 2 Democratic congress persons in TN one representing liberal Nashville and one representing liberal Memphis. But I guess even 2 is too many of these people.
Yeah so awesome, lets quote and honor a dude who's rise to fame was built pretty much solely on being a tabloid gossiper and attention seeker. I got a Dj Akademiks quote you can use for your future speeches big guy.
I have come to realize that people use the same argument to come to different conclusions. For example, both Trump voters and never-Trumpers will explain their vote as defending their First Amendment rights. It reminds me of a friend in high school who used the exact same argument, depending on his mood, for the existence or non-existence of God.
If Joe Rogan has the most popular podcast in the United States of America then how is he possibly park of the "Dark Web?" We are talking about a mainstream figure. He works on the exact same platforms as Ezra Klein. The same platforms that Malcolm Gladwell has moved towards.
AZOffRoadster Rohan has fantastic guests. I just don’t think he has the intellectual ability to really handle the hard topics. He definitely isn’t some great danger to legitimate social justice movements.
Rogan is given an honorary spot on the IDW, because he helped facilitate bringing the other people involved to the forefront (Peterson, Harris, etc). But he isn't on the same level intellectually.
@@andybaldman Jordan Peterson's family has stated that he is in Russia undergoing a drug detox program. Apparently he has struggled with anxiety issues and the medicines have caused him problems. Not sure if that is being reported down in the states and abroad.
Because people have been told that they are deplorables who believe deplorable things that they do not believe. Tell me long enough and hard enough that I am saying something that is not what I am saying....I start to think you are incapable of listening. It is a divisive habit, calling people foul names.
Ezra Klein totally misunderstands the current axis of political conflict. It’s not about the culture wars, it’s the total opposite. It’s about class warfare and economic populism
There have been some fairly prominent Jewish converts to Catholicism. Edith Stein was a notable instance in the twentieth century. In her case, Catholic conversion proceeded by a fairly typical route: via a serious engagement in academic philosophy. Thomism and twentieth century phenomenological and personalist Catholic philosophies tend to have attracted serious intellectuals in this way, Jewish and otherwise.
Ezra doesn't get that seeing politics as a sport is a coping mechanism for dealing with the fact that politics can control your life and you can't do anything about it.
How dare anyone treat politics like a sport, you psychopaths! My politics is so very important and so am I! We must do anything to win at all costs because we are right and they are immoral!
They spent some time talking about Jordan Peterson, but they didn't get to the primary ideological difference between he and they. Ezra Klein demonstrates his position in this interview when he talks about how he dislikes journalists who talk about politics like it's a sport, that he thinks they are psychopaths because they don't understand that it is all about power. That is the polar opposite of what Jordan Peterson believes. They misrepresent his views, he isn't raging at political correctness because he's upset about 'the browning of America' this isn't about demographics in that way, and it isn't because he's poor and 'locked out of the halls of power'. Jordan Peterson hates political correctness because he does not like the worldview that there is nothing but power. When you listen to him talk and he goes on about 'dominance hierarchies' and the lobsters and the like, it's because he's explaining that, yes power exists, it isn't the only thing. He believes much more in the power of stories, which is why he talks about the bible so much. And the role that competence plays within a hierarchy.
Gladwell is an amazing inspiration, open-minded investigator and writer, and has a fantastic online Masterclass. Klein is interesting, yet somehow a bit close-minded and gloomy, understandable in these demagogue times.
Peterson is probably a good example of someone who was initially pretty moderate, just stereotyped as extreme, and over time got more radicalized/agitated extreme.
Malcolm Gladwell is from outside of Waterloo. Waterloo is actually a pretty large community. However, Gladwell is Canadian when it is convenient. Jamaican when convenient. English when convenient. He has spent most of his life in the United States and often argues positions as if he was an American. Because of course he is most invested in the country where he has lived.
Honestly, I find his arguments so un-American because he doesn't seem to understand American culture or its history. It's especially true in this discussion. He doesn't understand that a lot of the issues the U.S. is dealing with are based on America's history with race and class that the country has never fully addressed or resolved.
@Adrian James I don't get your question. To my original comment, I was referring to the U.S. never fully dealing with institutional racism, which continues to influence the present. Though not perfect, Germany has confronted its Nazi past, so as not to repeat it, as well as South Africa dealing with apartheid. In the U.S., we stay stuck on things that do nothing to correct issues, like bringing out stupid things people said in their past or racist people denying they're racist, while racist and classist policies affecting policing, housing, and banking ensure inequality persists.
I had to laugh. Eureka is Oregon. That’s a joke. Don’t take me literally. I enjoyed your comment. I loved my time living in the Bay Area and always thought of it as northern CA. Sacramento is the Central Valley and everything north of that is the wilderness, another joke.
I loved watching these 2 smarties hangout and chat. Malcolm does seem to get off topic easily. (Ezra's skin is so perfect; I wish I had his dermatologist phone number.)
There is a long-running set of gags about Toronto's supposed snobbiness, though that city pretty much died in the 1950s. There is, however, a sound historical reason for much of Canada's hatred of Toronto: From Sir John A. MacDonald's National Policy of 1867 up until the rationality of Brian Mulroney, Toronto got rich by screwing the rest of the country behind a curtain of extortionate tariffs. The long Mackenzie King reign made feeble nationalistic noises, but it is worth remembering that King made his name working for one of John D. rockefeller's foundations, and his most significant Cabinet Minister, for a generation, was C.D. Howe, an American. In my childhood, economic Canada was a wholly owned subsidiary of the United States. Two generations of bizarre mismanagement of the US economy, from LBJ running Vietnam on the tab through Trump's current circus of insanity, seem to have enabled Canadian and other investors to take a good deal of it all off American hands.
@ You're right. I don't associate the saying particularly with CHUM; indeed CHUM's rise to great wealth on the crest of rock'n'roll rather marked the end of Toronto The Good. I associate its death with the Italian influx needed to actually carry out the post-WWII boom. There was a time when "the Golden Mile" was Eglinton Avenue from Yonge Street to Mount Pleasant, and it marched rapidly east after the first four-mile subway went in -- and paid for itself overnight out of the increased property levies within a very few yards of its new stations. The main point to my mind is that at first a few thousand, then tens of thousands, of skilled and intelligent Italian workers came in, confronted the ancient Protestant Lord's Day Act and drinking laws, and said "You gotta be kidding." I remember Allan Lamport as Chairman of the newly invented metropolitan government -- one of Canada's very powerful contributions to the functioning of civilization -- bemoaning the new O'Keefe Centre as pretentious and unnecessary. Placido Domingo packed Maple leaf Gardens, seven or eight times the O'Keefe's capacity, for an evening of opera, and when I worked as a ticket-taker there in college, 1962 or so, all the operas were packed, standing room only with $1 a person standing at the back and a good deal of fire-marshal-challenging sitting in the aisles. The construction workers.
8 mins in and I’m already so frustrated by Gladwell taking the conversation away from interesting points; like Ezra starts talking about whether it’s important to rank identities and starts talking about claiming identities (which touches on a really interesting basic concept about identity, identifying as, identifying with, and what it means to be an identity and not just a descriptive label) yet Gladwell goes on this tangent about catholic conversion and just draws out some of the least interesting paths forward from almost every point of the conversation
I know! I think it's funny that an hour long conversation about sorting and the ways in which our complex, multi-faceted identities and values get boiled down to this binary either/or political switch, results in a stream of comments where people are all like "Gladwell good!" or "Gladwell bad!" Thus proving the point that we as a society have lost any capacity to traffic in subtlety and nuance.
Perhaps it's a whole generation of people growing up 'reading' mostly Twitter and not books that leads to many people not having any practice or capacity in following a lengthy conversation, or to discuss it with any substance.
@@gravityhypernova I know. At the risk of sounding like an old man griping about "kids these days", I feel like most Americans now have the attention span of a dyslexic hamster.
agree to disagree. I really like both of them and thought this was very interesting. Malcolm took it off topic, so not quite what I expected compared to his other book interviews, but was still very interesting.
In reality, Ezra Klein is only culturally Jewish, and most Jewish people (something close to 70 percent) in the US who self-identify vote Democrat party, but we could say they are like Ezra, the Secularized and Culturally Jewish, not the type who are keeping the Torah and supporting Nationalism. Instead they love Feminism, International Socialism, and are supporters of Cultural Marxism. This is an important distinction to duly note, and it is not a value statement, simply a descriptor to further clarify the self-claimed identity group Era states he is a member of. It is then inaccurate to speak then of a single Jewish community, or identity, rather sub-sets or sub-cultures exist, especially in the US, but really in many Western nations. Put another way, there is a very real distinction between Ezra Klein and Ben Shapiro, and it is not simply liberal and conservative, but rather more like the divide between Theist and Atheist, with a loosely shared culture. Put another way to say Ezra Klein is religious Jewish is like looking a the many self-identified Christians who are more accurately described as 'fake Christians' or hypocritical Christians, and the same works for Jewish or Islam or, one could say, any other so-called religion or faith, thus all adherents of such a group are not best to be lumped together without creating a masking of very real and important distinctions. Duly note the obsession with identity and politics, drowning out the fundamental central identity of American, as people who are Canadian are extremely self-aware, especially in the US to point out, their Canadian identity. Ezra seems devoid of this level of identity and his American-identity. Being Californian, is more important, demonstrating his Regional Identity supersedes his national identity, again, over New York City (in particular), another area with a strong Jewish population, so we could assume, there are Jewish people in New York City who aren't big fans of California sort of like the East Coast West Coast rivalry in Hip-Hop and Rap music so in a way Ezra is like the Tu Pac Shakur of the Jewish identity group. Let's hope he does not meet the New York City Jewish Biggie. Pie Dew Pie made a Rap Battle Anthem so Ezra Klein needs to make a similar Rap calling out New Yorkers, including Jewish New Yorkers, letting them know just how crappy their city really is. Let us know how you really feel, in a Rap/Hip Hop jam. We know there are New York City people who will take up that challenge. Let's post suggestions of Rap, Hip Hop songs that Ezra could use as a basis for his Rap Battle Anthem where he calls out New Yorkers and their dirty city, sort of like the Dirty South rappers, we can know New York City as the Dirty North. You would think Jay Z would the most identified Dirty North rapper, but alas he does not wear that crown yet. To help my East Coast Jewish brothers and sisters who join in the Rap Battle San Francisco and Los Angels both are what the African American community call "Hella Dirty", and chocked full of transient members of the community. There is an actual Poop Patrol, and the Progressives solution is not to identify and solve the root causes, but rather pay people up to 180k a year serving on the Poop Patrol. The rapper Ludacris has a song titled Roll Out, that is the Poop Patrols theme song. The commander of the Poop Patrol, DJ Optimus Prime has a flag and one side of that flag has Gavin Newsom's smiling face and Nancy Pelosi's scowling face on the other side. Mount Up, and Move Out Poop Patrol....... Spray those streets clean.
Lots of responses can be given to this video as far as the ideas are concerned and that is the most important thing. Malcolm mentions polarization toward the end 1:02:04 and the Ezra says 'polarization is not fractal' as Malcolm is pointing out how Northern and Southern troops traded. This type of thing happens in many wars if you read closely, such as WW1, and as Ezra points out polarization is more a function of leadership and the political class, people like Ezra who cultivate polarization. Yes, he very much is one of those people who actively cultivates polarization, and to a degree so does Malcolm, but imagine some issue like Ezra says he can imagine where you have some Civil War as most likely both of these would be part of that group where differences matter more than commonalities, but some who fight for some army or militia might want some comfort item, regardless. Imagine this scene. The idea of eliminating Gender from society is a thing people like Ezra might push, the so-called "Left' and later I can get into why that is not really the Left, but let's not digress too much, and say you have this non-binary person who is fighting against their perceived enemy, the dreaded MAGA Americans, or Christians or 'white racists' or white men, which are all useful fictions as none of those groups are actually the enemy, but might be in the mind of that non-binary person who has been manipulated by people like Ezra Klein after reading too many news articles and Vox articles, but say that non-binary person needs something they value and approach the dreaded enemy camp and make a trade. How can this be? Would their Leftists brethren or to use non-binary language, their fellow commrades, like that the non-binary dared to go to the other side for some comfort item, this is where we have fun and what item might that be that a non-binary will go to a disciple of Trump and ask them for it in trade. Imagine Nancy Peloi's staffer going to the MAGA camp and asking for some item. What item might they want? Have fun with thinking what that might be, but either way the leadership, the ideologues, the Blue Check Mark class of zealots won't like that exchange one bit. That person might be considered a traitor for daring to communicate or not demonize the other side. So these are the Pimps of Polarization and the two guys in this video are two such people, but they are by no means alone or unique. Ezra though calls another Journo a 'sociopath' for loving this polarization 'isn't it great'. Well, if Ezra really felt that way then why co-found Vox? a driver of polarization. It is like CnC Music Factory's Things that Make You Go Hmmm? There are layers or dimensions to this beyond the mere surface of appearance, and like Malcolm points out, most normal people, Normies, are not drivers of polarization, nor zealots in the pursuit of generating, sustaining, and expanding it, like Ezra Klein and the other Blue Check Mark ideological (political) class are, That is where we get to values, as Ezra and Malcolm touch on regional and state values, like California values, but then consider are there values of a particular city or section of a larger city as Queens is in New York and really part of New York City. Yes, there are attitudes unique to regions and cities included. We could say these are attached to values, but many values, like American Values are not so-much regional, rather they are modifications of values shared by others in the nation-state. What Ezra and his cohorts are doing are cultivating Regional Identity, increasing the potential Regionalism. That is something the ruling class of the United States did not like, and one key reason why they created national institutions. To project and control power within regions. That is a whole topic in-and-of-itself. Yes, someone might hold this State identity, and anyone who has served in the Military most likely has met people from various regions and states, and in the US, that includes also US territories, but did you know, for example, you can be in the US military and not be a citizen. Yup, it is true, and one thing a person gets by doing this can be US citizenship. Imagine that. Yes, that means all those illegal so-called migrants (aka Illegal aliens) who didn't pay like legal immigrants for the naturalization process, or did not earn it through service, like those who join the military are effectively cheaters, but they are cheating in a way that benefits someone in power and someone who is part of a donor class. Yup, when you have that many illegals in the nation, it is benefiting someone. Who is that? A real journalist, of which someone like Ezra Klein is not, as he is more of a Propagandist, would investigate that, but how many Vox articles will be written on that topic? or if they were how many are not Spin, trying to seed manipulative ideas into article to modify the perception of its readers. Lastly, as there as there are so many other things that could be said about this video and topics, but the concept of 'Tribe' is another divisive concept, that you are part of identities, and one of those can be described as a 'tribe'. All of these identities are secondary to your core identity as (insert your nation-state) citizenship. Malcolm is well aware he is Canadian, and really he is Canadian first, Jewish second, and sure he can put whatever order he wants, or Ezra can but like it or not, you are that national identity first. The same can be said of anyone who is a legal or illegal immigrant, all of them come from a nationality and if you ask most of them they will think in nationalist terms. They won't say 'i am Hispanic'. Instead they will say "I am Venezualian' and only here in the US do we Sort (to use Ezra's language that he seems to love) people into groups like Hispanic, or Brown, and White, but the reality is very different. You can be both Hispanic and White, Yup just like you can be both White and Jewish, and the internal distinction you feel is so important is not present when others perceive you. That is why one Hispanic person (say from Mexico) who is in living in the US feels they are a Brown person, and so to suggest there are white people who are Hispanic might give that person so indoctrinated a cognitive meltdown, a Mentos Moment if you will, where you need a Mentos the Fresh Maker, to calm you down, from the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing. In her mind there is a very real distinction. When we then speak of identities, the subjective is as important as the objective, but Ezra and Malcolm only seem to focus on the subjective. Like it or not, as Malcolm seems to revel in the idea that Trump was the 'Hail Mary' for 'White Men', but Malcolm YOU are a White Men, like it or not. You really are, and you can identify as something else all you want, but in reality, your a white person, or as the Woke people have created the term "White Passing'. Cue Malcolm saying "No, I'm not, I'm really not'. Living with denial is a sad thing Malcolm. Yes, being Transracial is real but realize that those who love to demand the reality of Transgender identity simultaneously deny that Transracial is not real. Yet, it really is, and I personally know a huge number of such people, so to deny its existence while pushing that other concept exposes a core inconsistency in their manufactured world view. They have erected a Fictional Reality super-imposed on what we could call 'Actual Reality'. Again, we can entertain that Transracial is real, but then so is being Transracial.
Just as the conversation takes an interesting turn, Gladwell steers it away; and not usually towards something; he doesn't have a developed idea or interesting interjection; it's usually just something vapid laced with disfluency.. I really wanted to hear what Klein was going to say about his political persuasion shifting.. smh. And who cares about J.Peterson's lack of significance among Canadians? He's become a millionaire milking discontented incels in the US.
There are plenty of moderate progressives that resonate with Jordan Peterson's message. As a progressive, I believe that the Left needs to be more inclusive of the whole spectrum of liberal/progressive ideologies. Instead, the far-left extremists have persecuted and attacked moderate liberals. The illiberal Left demands that everyone must tow their narrow anti-male party-line ~ which is a huge turn-off for a large segment of moderate progressive allies. The illiberal-fragile-extreme left must realize that they need the votes of their moderate progressive allies if they are going to be able to move forward with policies and laws that help everyone.
Malcolm Gladwell is a surprisingly incoherent interviewer. He has great guests. But he really sputters and meanders. Still worth watching but he doesn't fully take advantage of his great guests.
What a load of identity politics to explain not much. Sorting, identities, political stories, conservative pundits. Not much about the real things that affect people's lives, like health care, cost of living, falling standards of living, stagnant wages etc. He misses a lot of salient facts that have a direct bearing on political groups. But then a lot of Axios reporting is like this.
Great talk but I feel the guy is a bit full of himself you can tell he thinks Rogan is just some meathead and you can see the disappointment when he sees Gladwell enjoyed and likes Jordan Peterson who's only sin is refusing to be bullied !
Malcolm Gladwell, with plenty of time to prepare: "I think of 'Irvine County' [There is no such place], and I think of Newport Beach..." Also Malcolm Gladwell: "You have to know your Toronto geography to understand what I'm saying."
I think of Malcom Gladwell as a smart guy but you wouldn't know it from hearing this interview. The quality of questions in this interview are of that I would expect from the most intellectually mediocre people I know. Maybe he just didn't read the book; that would explain the bad questions that sound like they're the brainchild of someone who merely read the inside flap of the book on the way to the interview.
@@Spike.SpiegeI This entire comment thread is full of people who are complaining about Klein without giving any nuance as to why, and ironically demonstrating exactly how polarised they are by being so one-sided and binary about their position. Which they might have a moment of self-reflection about, if they bothered to actually watch the talk and try to listen.
The idea that divisions and disagreements are sorted by party is undercut by the reality that most Democrats (in public office at the national level) are conservatives. If there is a polarization, as it relates to political parties, it is between the far right and the moderate right. While the moderate right is horrified by the dangerous views of the far right, the far right should theoretically like and agree with most of the views of the moderate right, except for a handful of wedge issues like gun control, abortion, and immigration. It doesn't, because actual views are not the source of the polarization. Meanwhile, actual leftists, who are a large proportion of the population, have very little representation in government, and are really not included in this polarization. They strongly dislike the far right, and they largely dislike the moderate right, which they support grudgingly as a bulwark against the worst impulses of the far right.
I have never thought of a single identity, that Gladwell says everyone in the audience has a list is rather presumptuous. Succesful people like this tend to have streaks of narcissism and it spills out like this at times..
Let’s answer an audience question… nope Gladwell interrupting with a rambling rant unrelated to polarisation with a point preceded by admitting he knows nothing about what he’s about to rant about. This guy is so frustrating
We are polarized because the South lost the Civil War and has been fighting a war of divide and conquer ever since. It’s quite easy, play on inherent xenophobia, racism and jingoism to convince the common man that the pariahs of society are the reasons that he’s not better off. The wealthy plantation owners figured this out in the 1700’s. Make a man feel superior to another, allow him to make just enough to get by, wrap it all in a flag and that man will help the plantation owner maintain and grow his wealth by helping control the chattel and preserve the state of order that makes it all work.
The 'Fever Pitch' of politics exists because the fate of humanity depends on what happens next...a bit more serious than contending sports affiliations.
@@TheDentist27 nothing means nothing! I get it though, everyone wants to feel important, as if this is an unprecedented time in history. For us currently living, yes, it may very well be, but take a look at a book called “The Fourth Turning” and some of the authors related works. It was written in 1997 but you’d think parts of the book were written today. Look into Ray Dalio’s latest book as well. I will say, I’m probably more pessimistic and apathetic than I should be, so maybe my feelings and bias lie more in that sense. At least I’m aware of it, I guess. 🙃
I’ve always thought politics was the same as sport. People sure treat it the same. It might be a mix of good, bad, scary, and crazy all at the same time.
Identity is never ending black hole of politics.
I like how Malcolm asks questions, his curiosity makes for a very good interviewer to facilitate conversation.
Yeah, love that guy. He usually pushes the guests a decent bit while staying more impartial and curious!
I agree. He's the best interviewer and also the best interviewee.
I’m not a big Ezra fan but I’ll watch this out of curiosity and now I’m fascinated in watching two people communicate who have two completely different styles of talking
Ezra's style being making a spectacle of himself spewing woke pieties while contributing nothing valuable to any domain.
i would give anything to be a fly on the wall of that 4 hr conversation between Malcolm Gladwell and Jordan Peterson. 2 of my favourites
I love how Malcolm clearly isn't interested in winning anything here. he is interested in different point of view. if he doesnt agree, he has choices, he can drill a bit, or he can search for a unifying thread, or he can throw in a neutral observation that can hang in the air between them (and the audience) and let people absorb what they will. an offering. its almost like an entire lack of rhetorical chasedown, but still a power to describe and portray a little koan or sorts that curveballs anyone who has memorised the typical talking points in order to win an argument.
My favorite part is when Gladwell goes on a tangent about Jordan Peterson's identity and his great presence during interviews, and how he's got an amazing living room. And then Ezra Klein is wondering "why the hell are we talking about this guy and not about my book". haha
Mostly because Ezra Klein is an insufferable bore.
yeah it was funny how little Gladwell seemed to want to talk about the actual book and how much Klein kept trying to pull it back there
That's one of the things I love about Malcolm Gladwell, he is deeply curious and actually listens to people even when he disagrees with a lot of what they believe. He refuses to just do a total character assassination of Jordan Peterson. Klein comes across as petty and partisan by comparison.
@@epiccollision I think he comes across as an engaging and knowledgeable bore.
Malcolm really was an fun 'moderator' since he goes off on tangents (but still loops back to the point). I liked learning that we're polarised because ghosts play guitar. ;) I found the whole talk pretty entertaining.
I found it odd that Malcom questions why people that are quite interested in politics or even involved have a tough time talking with each other or making a case for a position and listening to the opposing case when sports fans of opposing teams, or even of extreme rival teams can talk about sports for hours no problem. Isn't it pretty obvious it's because sports are not important? I mean in the way you'll never feel very uncomfortable discussing the weather, tv shows, movies, etc. Those things are entertainment, discussed as water cooler topics. They are not important in the way a law or policy will effects on your health, financial future, the planets future, etc. When you get on an important topic it will always feel uncomfortable and you will probably get pissed one someone doesn't see it like you do.
On an individual level, we don’t really notice policy. Think of everything over the past 5 years that has passed. How is your life any difference? Other than seeing a little more or little less money being taken out it’s virtually like nothing changed.
We are just emotionally attached to politics because it has become religion, it has become morality.
Who wants to see Malcolm Gladwell and Jordan Peterson talk? I can't seem to find it, was it ever recorded?
Did they talk?
Tyler Reed he said in the video that they did but not sure if it was recorded
He talked to Peterson as research for a book. It wasn't an published conversation.
totally Muhammad
No. There's no need for it.
I really enjoyed this chat !!!
Ezra is one of the biggest polarized figures
He would probably be the first to admit that. At the same time, he enjoys discussions with people with whom he disagrees.
amazing. Ezra's insights on how incredibly polarized american culture has become and the political parties have become absolutely distinct is rather terrifying.
Ezra was really bothered that Malcolm liked Jordan so much. Sorta jealous like a teenage girl.
He might just dislike Jordan enough that that hearing people like him feels icky
yeah it unintentionally showed why we're polarized. Ezra couldn't seem to comprehend that Malcom found Jordan interesting.
Ezra is great at answering questions with someone else's thoughts and not committing to anything.
My head is spinning, listening to him on the radio, now, (prerecorded), on the Commonwealth Club. Which is it - is it that hyper-identification by individuals is bad, or that it serves a common good. I swear he said both. Of course, the more we break our "identities" down to the level of the proper number of sips to take from a cup, it creates havoc. And he is going on about all of his Tweets., I would appreciate knowing your critique of Klein.
Am I seeing things? Ezra is the one championing identity politics and now he talks about we we are polarised? What a clown.
☝
the fake confusion at 45:35...so telling. Ezra couldn't comprehend that Malcom could be praising Jordan. Ezra assumes Malcom must have just changed topics on a dime...give me a break. Guy just needs to be humbled
There’s a huge difference between sport and politics: two basketball fans who are fans of different events opposing teams are still both sport fans, also the stakes of the team winning doesn’t impact you in the way politics is reported to impact you, the identity and what it means to you are totally different.
Hating on New York City is the most New Yorker thing to do.
.....and Boston!
Oh, now, actually when I was in college in the late 70s, a Psych Prof. pointed out we each sat in the same area of a classroom no matter what room or what subject. Predictive for feeling comfortable. There is something in self selection and location along with owing a place of predictability. Civil war North and South, symbolic exchange, was coffee for tobacco, BTW
Gladwell, here's what's missing in all our structures: A bit of unknowness, an agreement to keep changing, a desire to invest in a story contrary to our goals, just to cover the bases and bring in flexibility. A willingness to build some agility into our futures, to give up stiffened, rigid positions.
The religion needs to go, there’s simply no other answer.
I take issue with Ezra describing what Joe Rogan said as transphobic... he literally only said he does not think trans women should compete againt cis women in combat sports. If that is a "horrible" thing to say then you have to ability to think about issues with nuance.
Exactly!’
Peterson isn't railing against the establishment, he has argued extensively that hierarchy is natural in humanity. He is against the encroachment of identity politics in political discourse which bothers millions of people throughout the West
Jai R.Emmett “identity politics”= valuing the humanity and interests of anyone other than white males
@@dantegood2195 nice try...thats not the concept and you know it.
A major point Ezra makes is there is no "encroachment of identify politics in political discourse". We've always had identity politics in political discourse but when those politics happen to favor white men, who historically have always been the people in power, then it's not considered identify politics it's just "politics". Now that other races and genders are finally speaking up and pushing for policies that favor them it's suddenly "identify politics" and "bothers millions of people throughout the west?" The truth is all politics is identity politics, it's just a question of what identity is being favored.
@@Spike.SpiegeI exactly-that’s why Ta-Nehisi Coates called Trump “The First White President”. Before the election of Barack Obama, whiteness was just a given.
*35:15** Klein/Vox, please link to the things Rogan has said that are so transphobic and awful. Making that claim casually while not citing direct examples is not transparent, nor fair to Joe. I watch his podcast, and I have no idea what you're referring to.*
Its about using words, not what is meant. Shallow look and (way too) broad stroke. Kind of makes you think, if Klein cant get even that accurately, what else he i is just winging.
He causally dropped similar words on Sam Harris as well.
Um there are many, and if you don't know that, you don't watch his channel. Just the other day (interview with Bari Weiss) he referred to trans women as "dudes who wacked their dicks off" and "it". Watch his interview with ben shapiro when there are too many to count, but one was when Shapiro defended misgendering trans people, Joe giggled like a s school girl and nodded along through out Shapiro's trans phobic tirade.
@@jdhill4 He said the same things about Sam? (Or about Joe on Sam's podcast?) It just seems like he has no ability to interpret nuance. I get how Sam's statements about Islam, or Joe's statements about trans people in MMA could be grossly misinterpreted negatively, however that isn't how they have said them, at all. But you have to be a real idiot to not understand that.
@@andybaldman Sam Harris had Charles Murray on his podcast a year or two ago. Regardless of what you think of Charles' work, Sam thought he had been treated unfairly. Since Sam discussed the race and IQ thing with Charles, Ezra Klein penned a scathing article about Sam. Of course, Sam was not being a racist and was approaching the issue out of concern. Ezra came on Sam's podcast, and though did not call him a racist, called him a racialist. Sam's usual nuance laced arguments were bouncing off the brick wall of predetermined views of Ezra's mind. That's how it went at least in my opinion and memory.
I am sure Malcom Gladwell writes amusing books, and he certainly has his fans, but the more I listen to this man, the more confused I get. He is a long winded preacher, but II understand neither his point, nor his position. What does this man stand for?
People in states and towns have values other than geographical. Thanks for asking that question (discussed from 59:00 to 1:01:04).
Don't worry Malcolm Gladwell, I know Toronto well and went to the University of Toronto. I know exactly what you're talking about regarding Toronto neighbourhoods around 46:00. I was interested in what you were saying. :)
These are the last two people I'd ask if I wanted to know why we're polarised.
Oh!...about ghost.....I heard my ukulele playing one night while I was in bed sleeping and I turned the light on to see a little mouse running in and out of the hol
Gladwell is open-minded and curious, except about the most important issues. That’s why the establishment gives him big platforms and high positions on the best-seller lists. He can keep the masses musing on bullshit for hours on end…
I'm a Black Canadian and Canada isn't chilled on race it's passive aggressive. Jordon Peterson is like a lot of Canadians.
Ezra got a little touchy about the Peterson thing Malcolm was giving one best examples of the depth duality of man.
I love New York and Boston, the two great American cities I’ve visited on the East Coast. That said, I can definitely relate to Ezra as a fellow Westerner, having lived in Northern California and Northern Nevada. I’ve heard plenty of derisive comments from East Coast transplants throughout my life, telling me how much better things are back East. I’ve always wondered if West Coast people do the same to my good friends on the East Coast, and if not, where this insecurity comes from. I'm fairly certain the majority of Easterners don’t engage in this troll-like behavior. Regardless, it's a question worth asking.
Ezra uses the same simple reductionist polarizing judgements about Jordan Peterson as he describes in his book. Malcolm politely point it out but it is lost on Ezra.
yes. its funny ezra talking about polarisation as if he is not part of it.
Or maybe you're the only one that thought that.
would you say that the analysis of polarization in his book is correct even if he himself falls prey to the ways of thinking he outlines in a negative light? Or do his blind spots render his analysis faulty as well?
No conversation about polarization can't be had without recommendation/suggestion algorithms in social media
It's interesting, that Mr. Klein does not see himself as a "white" or "male" - especially in the context of identities in politics. That was quite the elephant in the room for the first section of the discussion.
Isn't it racists now not to see color? That was the epitome of not being racist 20 years ago. He's way behind the times. Also, I'm not quite certain I disagree with him about not seeing himself as male.
@@jdhill4 From my experience, everything can be racist in some US circles - provided you are ethnically white.
Wow, I can't believe I missed that.
@@jdhill4 Lol, he's not required to see himself as white. What's important is others identify him as white; that's how privilege works. He's going to get the jobs he wants, he'll be allowed to live out his life without fear of incarceration, and he'll write or say anything he wants without suffering significant -- if any -- consequences. There's a reason Ezra Klein will be referencing his time in Obama's administration till the day he dies.
@@rebeccagarcia8259 Yeah, but I'm saying how we see ourselves isn't what matters when you're talking about racism; it's a classificatin that can be the reason one is punished or rewarded. It's especially important if you're at the top of the privilege latter to keep in mind, maybe it's not that you're a good driver why you don't get pulled over much. And on and on.
Ezra said “husband” right after “father” it was his 2nd identity on the list. Gladwell missed hearing and restating that.
So, I'm not hearing this Commonwealth Club interview - more like a Klein pulpit - broadcast, wrong, then. And my brain feeling scrambled is the rational response to his utter - hypocrisy? Illogic? Oh. He co-founded Vox. Oh. He is 35 years old. Where would he be without uber-identity, and the internet.
interesting and worrying point at 1.08 - some polarisation is worth it (as a result of political successes) and comes at a cost we can manage. in the wrong hands that could go badly wrong. in the right hands perhaps its merely as he says.
I like Gladwell quite a bit, but did I just hear him say (all be it from a vaguely framed "Canadian" perspective and certainly somewhat in a jest) "no one is listening to him" (Peterson) and that he's "way outside the main stream"?
(and I don't think "in Canada" works... considering that wouldn't be true either - and yes, I do realize C16 passed)
I had expectations for a more substantive discussion.
I agree
semidemiurge I found this very substantive, what would a more substantive discussion look like for you, just out of curiosity, I hope that didn’t sound combative
From Ezra Klein....why?
Klein just refuses to settle in and let himself be the subject for once.
I think they are very similar but in uniquely different ways. I think Malcolm is just interested in people the way a lovable professor is so interested in studying something unique. Ezra is deeply interested in people but in a more pragmatic sense, aka how do we develop policy that best reflects who we are as human beings. I don't believe they are in conflict here but the tension on the stage comes from a sililar appreciation for the human condition, but very different ways of encountering and interacting with it.
He’s too busy peddling rhetorical bullshit to be a human.
1:09:11 First, California is a disaster in a thousand ways. But the biggest problem here is he basically claims that the "positive path" of California is due to all political parties being in agreement with his perspective in a way that makes opposing positions essentially "sins". And yet he has the gall to be concerned about polarization as though he himself as an individual and the popularity of the above "woke" thought process not a PRIMARY reason for it's escalation.
@JimmyDThing ... California still has plenty of anti-immigration belief in it, as well as whatever else you may encapsulate “sin” in. Ezra’s point is we either fundamentally believe in and support representative democracy or we don’t. When an active enough minority of the electorate, or elected, choose to subvert the majority by changing governance to remain in power it’s not much of a representative democracy anymore.
@Adrian James ... who is "he" in this case? Can you cite any proof that they do not believe in representation?
I think you're missing Ezra's point because you're focused on California's political leanings, which wasn't the point at all. He's talking about the way California went a democratic(small "d" as in pro-democracy) direction and the political parties responded to demographic change by adjusting their message. So for example, you can have a Republican governor even in deep blue states like Massachusetts or California(with Arnold), but those governors will have to ditch the anti-immigration rhetoric. Contrast that to the strategy that Texas is using where rather than competing for voters on the battle of ideas, it is attempting to stop demographics likely to vote Democratic from getting to the polls with various methods of voter suppression in order to ensure that Republicans can win even if they are a voting minority. These are two different directions. So for example, California has taken congressional districting out of the hands of politicians and districts are drawn by neutral independent commission. Texas and other Republican states are going balls to wall on gerrymandering and ensuring Democrats don't have congressional representation. I live in Nashville, one of the few blue islands in a sea of red. The Republicans here are now trying to re-draw the lines in such a way that one of the only couple Democratic congressman here will lose his seat and Nashville will be carved out in such a way that different parts of the city will incorporated into rural districts so that they will be guaranteed to go to Republicans. Nashville is a liberal city, but the state is deeply conservative so now basically we won't even have any representation of our local interests because the Republican strategy rather than fighting for the hearts and minds of voters is to simply legislate their opposition out of power. We only have 2 Democratic congress persons in TN one representing liberal Nashville and one representing liberal Memphis. But I guess even 2 is too many of these people.
Vote up or down;
I would like to see a conversation between Malcolm Gladwell and Jordan Peterson.
Are you listening, 92nd Street Y?
Lex Fridman
Irvine isn’t a county Malcolm. Irvine is a community in Orange Co.
My man Gladwell ended it with a Charlamagne the God quote. I love it!!!!
Yes, he’s so ‘down’ isn’t he.
Yeah so awesome, lets quote and honor a dude who's rise to fame was built pretty much solely on being a tabloid gossiper and attention seeker. I got a Dj Akademiks quote you can use for your future speeches big guy.
I like Ezra soooooo much! Great analytical thinking 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
That's an interesting way to describe Klein...
I don't know if "interesting but wrong" is intended as a dig on Gladwell, but it's a pretty spot on take on a lot of his work...
I have come to realize that people use the same argument to come to different conclusions.
For example, both Trump voters and never-Trumpers will explain their vote as defending their First Amendment rights.
It reminds me of a friend in high school who used the exact same argument, depending on his mood, for the existence or non-existence of God.
Yes but the truth will set you free .
Irvine is a city not a county in CA. He keeps saying Irvine county.
If Joe Rogan has the most popular podcast in the United States of America then how is he possibly park of the "Dark Web?" We are talking about a mainstream figure. He works on the exact same platforms as Ezra Klein. The same platforms that Malcolm Gladwell has moved towards.
You have to be part of the 'ultra woke left' to be offended by Rogan.
AZOffRoadster Rohan has fantastic guests. I just don’t think he has the intellectual ability to really handle the hard topics. He definitely isn’t some great danger to legitimate social justice movements.
@@deadeaded I feel so out of touch. Which one has glory holes?
Rogan is given an honorary spot on the IDW, because he helped facilitate bringing the other people involved to the forefront (Peterson, Harris, etc). But he isn't on the same level intellectually.
@@andybaldman Jordan Peterson's family has stated that he is in Russia undergoing a drug detox program. Apparently he has struggled with anxiety issues and the medicines have caused him problems. Not sure if that is being reported down in the states and abroad.
Summary: Because we all live in our own media bubble & think that that's reality when it's not.
Are you talking about us or them?
@@epiccollision exactly
Because people have been told that they are deplorables who believe deplorable things that they do not believe. Tell me long enough and hard enough that I am saying something that is not what I am saying....I start to think you are incapable of listening. It is a divisive habit, calling people foul names.
Especially Klein, right? No? He is obviously uber-empowered.
Creator of Vox and author of Outliers ! what great interview
Ezra Klein totally misunderstands the current axis of political conflict. It’s not about the culture wars, it’s the total opposite. It’s about class warfare and economic populism
There have been some fairly prominent Jewish converts to Catholicism. Edith Stein was a notable instance in the twentieth century. In her case, Catholic conversion proceeded by a fairly typical route: via a serious engagement in academic philosophy. Thomism and twentieth century phenomenological and personalist Catholic philosophies tend to have attracted serious intellectuals in this way, Jewish and otherwise.
Ezra doesn't get that seeing politics as a sport is a coping mechanism for dealing with the fact that politics can control your life and you can't do anything about it.
How dare anyone treat politics like a sport, you psychopaths! My politics is so very important and so am I! We must do anything to win at all costs because we are right and they are immoral!
It's funny, as someone who's never been to the USA I feel like a lot of people shit on NY, that's probably why all the NYers are so defensive :D
Unless you are a NC fan talking to a Duke fan!
They spent some time talking about Jordan Peterson, but they didn't get to the primary ideological difference between he and they. Ezra Klein demonstrates his position in this interview when he talks about how he dislikes journalists who talk about politics like it's a sport, that he thinks they are psychopaths because they don't understand that it is all about power. That is the polar opposite of what Jordan Peterson believes. They misrepresent his views, he isn't raging at political correctness because he's upset about 'the browning of America' this isn't about demographics in that way, and it isn't because he's poor and 'locked out of the halls of power'. Jordan Peterson hates political correctness because he does not like the worldview that there is nothing but power. When you listen to him talk and he goes on about 'dominance hierarchies' and the lobsters and the like, it's because he's explaining that, yes power exists, it isn't the only thing. He believes much more in the power of stories, which is why he talks about the bible so much. And the role that competence plays within a hierarchy.
Another example of why he is a terrible journalist. Perhaps even person. He himself may be a large part of why we're polarized.
Agree Jordan Peterson views power as something that usually comes with responsibility.
Gladwell is an amazing inspiration, open-minded investigator and writer, and has a fantastic online Masterclass. Klein is interesting, yet somehow a bit close-minded and gloomy, understandable in these demagogue times.
Klein is more interested in having everyone agree with his thoughts then to actually have original ideas.
@@epiccollision How so?
In what way is Klein close minded?
@@tylerreed2409 You're not going to get a response to that question.
Does he mean Bill Buford rather than Bill Bryson?
Their conversation about Jordan Peterson's "position" is super out of date.
Peterson is probably a good example of someone who was initially pretty moderate, just stereotyped as extreme, and over time got more radicalized/agitated extreme.
Malcolm Gladwell is from outside of Waterloo. Waterloo is actually a pretty large community. However, Gladwell is Canadian when it is convenient. Jamaican when convenient. English when convenient. He has spent most of his life in the United States and often argues positions as if he was an American. Because of course he is most invested in the country where he has lived.
Honestly, I find his arguments so un-American because he doesn't seem to understand American culture or its history. It's especially true in this discussion. He doesn't understand that a lot of the issues the U.S. is dealing with are based on America's history with race and class that the country has never fully addressed or resolved.
Em Em he understands, he just regards it as absurd.
@Adrian James I don't get your question. To my original comment, I was referring to the U.S. never fully dealing with institutional racism, which continues to influence the present. Though not perfect, Germany has confronted its Nazi past, so as not to repeat it, as well as South Africa dealing with apartheid. In the U.S., we stay stuck on things that do nothing to correct issues, like bringing out stupid things people said in their past or racist people denying they're racist, while racist and classist policies affecting policing, housing, and banking ensure inequality persists.
Oakland is not in Northern California. Eureka, Klamath River, maybe
I had to laugh. Eureka is Oregon. That’s a joke. Don’t take me literally. I enjoyed your comment. I loved my time living in the Bay Area and always thought of it as northern CA. Sacramento is the Central Valley and everything north of that is the wilderness, another joke.
Andre Butts can you tell that I grew up in Oregon? I love the Bay Area and am very fond of LA.
I loved watching these 2 smarties hangout and chat. Malcolm does seem to get off topic easily. (Ezra's skin is so perfect; I wish I had his dermatologist phone number.)
Malcolm is as good a conversationalist as he is a writer. I'm very glad they posted this conversation.
Skin quality has little to do with dermatologists. At least when young.
Related to this please read Alfie Kohn’s book: No Contest: 4 myths of Evolution and they’re complete refutation. Ty
56:00 i look up my local city council...
I Liked this conversation. Thanks. The main problem is polarization. Media induced tribalism.
So Toronto is snobby?🙃
There is a long-running set of gags about Toronto's supposed snobbiness, though that city pretty much died in the 1950s.
There is, however, a sound historical reason for much of Canada's hatred of Toronto: From Sir John A. MacDonald's National Policy of 1867 up until the rationality of Brian Mulroney, Toronto got rich by screwing the rest of the country behind a curtain of extortionate tariffs. The long Mackenzie King reign made feeble nationalistic noises, but it is worth remembering that King made his name working for one of John D. rockefeller's foundations, and his most significant Cabinet Minister, for a generation, was C.D. Howe, an American.
In my childhood, economic Canada was a wholly owned subsidiary of the United States. Two generations of bizarre mismanagement of the US economy, from LBJ running Vietnam on the tab through Trump's current circus of insanity, seem to have enabled Canadian and other investors to take a good deal of it all off American hands.
@
You're right. I don't associate the saying particularly with CHUM; indeed CHUM's rise to great wealth on the crest of rock'n'roll rather marked the end of Toronto The Good.
I associate its death with the Italian influx needed to actually carry out the post-WWII boom. There was a time when "the Golden Mile" was Eglinton Avenue from Yonge Street to Mount Pleasant, and it marched rapidly east after the first four-mile subway went in -- and paid for itself overnight out of the increased property levies within a very few yards of its new stations.
The main point to my mind is that at first a few thousand, then tens of thousands, of skilled and intelligent Italian workers came in, confronted the ancient Protestant Lord's Day Act and drinking laws, and said "You gotta be kidding."
I remember Allan Lamport as Chairman of the newly invented metropolitan government -- one of Canada's very powerful contributions to the functioning of civilization -- bemoaning the new O'Keefe Centre as pretentious and unnecessary. Placido Domingo packed Maple leaf Gardens, seven or eight times the O'Keefe's capacity, for an evening of opera, and when I worked as a ticket-taker there in college, 1962 or so, all the operas were packed, standing room only with $1 a person standing at the back and a good deal of fire-marshal-challenging sitting in the aisles. The construction workers.
@@TheDavidlloydjones ...thanks for the info
8 mins in and I’m already so frustrated by Gladwell taking the conversation away from interesting points; like Ezra starts talking about whether it’s important to rank identities and starts talking about claiming identities (which touches on a really interesting basic concept about identity, identifying as, identifying with, and what it means to be an identity and not just a descriptive label) yet Gladwell goes on this tangent about catholic conversion and just draws out some of the least interesting paths forward from almost every point of the conversation
We are polarized to cutdown on glare.Because the other side is self identifying, we dont hafta glare at them.
Richmonder here, even I'm not sure if it's " Richmonder"!
I'm from Massachusetts, so the best word we can come up with is Masshole. But I say that with love!
Richmondite?
Jesus Christ, these comments.
Jesus Christ, Ezra Klein...
@@epiccollision Jesus Christ, epiccollision.
I know! I think it's funny that an hour long conversation about sorting and the ways in which our complex, multi-faceted identities and values get boiled down to this binary either/or political switch, results in a stream of comments where people are all like "Gladwell good!" or "Gladwell bad!" Thus proving the point that we as a society have lost any capacity to traffic in subtlety and nuance.
Perhaps it's a whole generation of people growing up 'reading' mostly Twitter and not books that leads to many people not having any practice or capacity in following a lengthy conversation, or to discuss it with any substance.
@@gravityhypernova I know. At the risk of sounding like an old man griping about "kids these days", I feel like most Americans now have the attention span of a dyslexic hamster.
sometimes you bring two really interesting people together and it's really boring. disclaimer: i only made it 20 minutes
I disagree that both of them are individually interesting. Since I don't like myself I watched the entire presentation.
You really didn't miss anything. I listened to it, but I was busy cooking.
AZOffRoadster I was at work. Glad I didn’t waste my own time.
agree to disagree. I really like both of them and thought this was very interesting. Malcolm took it off topic, so not quite what I expected compared to his other book interviews, but was still very interesting.
An interesting comnent. What were you looking for when you clicked on this presentation?
19:00 Klein definitely heard that from Hitchens and it stuck
In reality, Ezra Klein is only culturally Jewish, and most Jewish people (something close to 70 percent) in the US who self-identify vote Democrat party, but we could say they are like Ezra, the Secularized and Culturally Jewish, not the type who are keeping the Torah and supporting Nationalism. Instead they love Feminism, International Socialism, and are supporters of Cultural Marxism.
This is an important distinction to duly note, and it is not a value statement, simply a descriptor to further clarify the self-claimed identity group Era states he is a member of. It is then inaccurate to speak then of a single Jewish community, or identity, rather sub-sets or sub-cultures exist, especially in the US, but really in many Western nations. Put another way, there is a very real distinction between Ezra Klein and Ben Shapiro, and it is not simply liberal and conservative, but rather more like the divide between Theist and Atheist, with a loosely shared culture.
Put another way to say Ezra Klein is religious Jewish is like looking a the many self-identified Christians who are more accurately described as 'fake Christians' or hypocritical Christians, and the same works for Jewish or Islam or, one could say, any other so-called religion or faith, thus all adherents of such a group are not best to be lumped together without creating a masking of very real and important distinctions.
Duly note the obsession with identity and politics, drowning out the fundamental central identity of American, as people who are Canadian are extremely self-aware, especially in the US to point out, their Canadian identity. Ezra seems devoid of this level of identity and his American-identity. Being Californian, is more important, demonstrating his Regional Identity supersedes his national identity, again, over New York City (in particular), another area with a strong Jewish population, so we could assume, there are Jewish people in New York City who aren't big fans of California sort of like the East Coast West Coast rivalry in Hip-Hop and Rap music so in a way Ezra is like the Tu Pac Shakur of the Jewish identity group. Let's hope he does not meet the New York City Jewish Biggie.
Pie Dew Pie made a Rap Battle Anthem so Ezra Klein needs to make a similar Rap calling out New Yorkers, including Jewish New Yorkers, letting them know just how crappy their city really is. Let us know how you really feel, in a Rap/Hip Hop jam. We know there are New York City people who will take up that challenge.
Let's post suggestions of Rap, Hip Hop songs that Ezra could use as a basis for his Rap Battle Anthem where he calls out New Yorkers and their dirty city, sort of like the Dirty South rappers, we can know New York City as the Dirty North. You would think Jay Z would the most identified Dirty North rapper, but alas he does not wear that crown yet.
To help my East Coast Jewish brothers and sisters who join in the Rap Battle San Francisco and Los Angels both are what the African American community call "Hella Dirty", and chocked full of transient members of the community. There is an actual Poop Patrol, and the Progressives solution is not to identify and solve the root causes, but rather pay people up to 180k a year serving on the Poop Patrol. The rapper Ludacris has a song titled Roll Out, that is the Poop Patrols theme song. The commander of the Poop Patrol, DJ Optimus Prime has a flag and one side of that flag has Gavin Newsom's smiling face and Nancy Pelosi's scowling face on the other side. Mount Up, and Move Out Poop Patrol....... Spray those streets clean.
Lots of responses can be given to this video as far as the ideas are concerned and that is the most important thing. Malcolm mentions polarization toward the end 1:02:04 and the Ezra says 'polarization is not fractal' as Malcolm is pointing out how Northern and Southern troops traded. This type of thing happens in many wars if you read closely, such as WW1, and as Ezra points out polarization is more a function of leadership and the political class, people like Ezra who cultivate polarization. Yes, he very much is one of those people who actively cultivates polarization, and to a degree so does Malcolm, but imagine some issue like Ezra says he can imagine where you have some Civil War as most likely both of these would be part of that group where differences matter more than commonalities, but some who fight for some army or militia might want some comfort item, regardless.
Imagine this scene. The idea of eliminating Gender from society is a thing people like Ezra might push, the so-called "Left' and later I can get into why that is not really the Left, but let's not digress too much, and say you have this non-binary person who is fighting against their perceived enemy, the dreaded MAGA Americans, or Christians or 'white racists' or white men, which are all useful fictions as none of those groups are actually the enemy, but might be in the mind of that non-binary person who has been manipulated by people like Ezra Klein after reading too many news articles and Vox articles, but say that non-binary person needs something they value and approach the dreaded enemy camp and make a trade.
How can this be? Would their Leftists brethren or to use non-binary language, their fellow commrades, like that the non-binary dared to go to the other side for some comfort item, this is where we have fun and what item might that be that a non-binary will go to a disciple of Trump and ask them for it in trade. Imagine Nancy Peloi's staffer going to the MAGA camp and asking for some item. What item might they want? Have fun with thinking what that might be, but either way the leadership, the ideologues, the Blue Check Mark class of zealots won't like that exchange one bit. That person might be considered a traitor for daring to communicate or not demonize the other side.
So these are the Pimps of Polarization and the two guys in this video are two such people, but they are by no means alone or unique. Ezra though calls another Journo a 'sociopath' for loving this polarization 'isn't it great'. Well, if Ezra really felt that way then why co-found Vox? a driver of polarization. It is like CnC Music Factory's Things that Make You Go Hmmm?
There are layers or dimensions to this beyond the mere surface of appearance, and like Malcolm points out, most normal people, Normies, are not drivers of polarization, nor zealots in the pursuit of generating, sustaining, and expanding it, like Ezra Klein and the other Blue Check Mark ideological (political) class are,
That is where we get to values, as Ezra and Malcolm touch on regional and state values, like California values, but then consider are there values of a particular city or section of a larger city as Queens is in New York and really part of New York City.
Yes, there are attitudes unique to regions and cities included. We could say these are attached to values, but many values, like American Values are not so-much regional, rather they are modifications of values shared by others in the nation-state.
What Ezra and his cohorts are doing are cultivating Regional Identity, increasing the potential Regionalism. That is something the ruling class of the United States did not like, and one key reason why they created national institutions. To project and control power within regions. That is a whole topic in-and-of-itself.
Yes, someone might hold this State identity, and anyone who has served in the Military most likely has met people from various regions and states, and in the US, that includes also US territories, but did you know, for example, you can be in the US military and not be a citizen. Yup, it is true, and one thing a person gets by doing this can be US citizenship. Imagine that. Yes, that means all those illegal so-called migrants (aka Illegal aliens) who didn't pay like legal immigrants for the naturalization process, or did not earn it through service, like those who join the military are effectively cheaters, but they are cheating in a way that benefits someone in power and someone who is part of a donor class. Yup, when you have that many illegals in the nation, it is benefiting someone. Who is that?
A real journalist, of which someone like Ezra Klein is not, as he is more of a Propagandist, would investigate that, but how many Vox articles will be written on that topic? or if they were how many are not Spin, trying to seed manipulative ideas into article to modify the perception of its readers.
Lastly, as there as there are so many other things that could be said about this video and topics, but the concept of 'Tribe' is another divisive concept, that you are part of identities, and one of those can be described as a 'tribe'. All of these identities are secondary to your core identity as (insert your nation-state) citizenship. Malcolm is well aware he is Canadian, and really he is Canadian first, Jewish second, and sure he can put whatever order he wants, or Ezra can but like it or not, you are that national identity first.
The same can be said of anyone who is a legal or illegal immigrant, all of them come from a nationality and if you ask most of them they will think in nationalist terms. They won't say 'i am Hispanic'. Instead they will say "I am Venezualian' and only here in the US do we Sort (to use Ezra's language that he seems to love) people into groups like Hispanic, or Brown, and White, but the reality is very different. You can be both Hispanic and White, Yup just like you can be both White and Jewish, and the internal distinction you feel is so important is not present when others perceive you.
That is why one Hispanic person (say from Mexico) who is in living in the US feels they are a Brown person, and so to suggest there are white people who are Hispanic might give that person so indoctrinated a cognitive meltdown, a Mentos Moment if you will, where you need a Mentos the Fresh Maker, to calm you down, from the cognitive dissonance you are experiencing. In her mind there is a very real distinction.
When we then speak of identities, the subjective is as important as the objective, but Ezra and Malcolm only seem to focus on the subjective. Like it or not, as Malcolm seems to revel in the idea that Trump was the 'Hail Mary' for 'White Men', but Malcolm YOU are a White Men, like it or not. You really are, and you can identify as something else all you want, but in reality, your a white person, or as the Woke people have created the term "White Passing'. Cue Malcolm saying "No, I'm not, I'm really not'. Living with denial is a sad thing Malcolm.
Yes, being Transracial is real but realize that those who love to demand the reality of Transgender identity simultaneously deny that Transracial is not real. Yet, it really is, and I personally know a huge number of such people, so to deny its existence while pushing that other concept exposes a core inconsistency in their manufactured world view. They have erected a Fictional Reality super-imposed on what we could call 'Actual Reality'.
Again, we can entertain that Transracial is real, but then so is being Transracial.
Gladwell keeps saying " Irvine county" ( no such thing, Irvine is in orange county) nd Klein doesn't correct him which is interesting.
I love Gladwell, but he's a horrible interviewer. I feel he's very naive with respect to his understanding of polarization. That was surprising.
scottdpt12 - maybe because he’s Canadian??!?
Just as the conversation takes an interesting turn, Gladwell steers it away; and not usually towards something; he doesn't have a developed idea or interesting interjection; it's usually just something vapid laced with disfluency.. I really wanted to hear what Klein was going to say about his political persuasion shifting.. smh. And who cares about J.Peterson's lack of significance among Canadians? He's become a millionaire milking discontented incels in the US.
I have the opposite take away, he asked many good interesting questions.
Ezra Klein has been working overtime for years to make that jump from blogger to household name intellectual aaaaaaand still no one's buying it...
I noticed you've posted this comment like three times on this page.
@John Smith And he hasn't responded either. Russian bot, maybe?
or a privileged idiot.
Well he's now a writer at the NYT. And who is exactly is paying you for your opinions?
There are plenty of moderate progressives that resonate with Jordan Peterson's message. As a progressive, I believe that the Left needs to be more inclusive of the whole spectrum of liberal/progressive ideologies. Instead, the far-left extremists have persecuted and attacked moderate liberals. The illiberal Left demands that everyone must tow their narrow anti-male party-line ~ which is a huge turn-off for a large segment of moderate progressive allies. The illiberal-fragile-extreme left must realize that they need the votes of their moderate progressive allies if they are going to be able to move forward with policies and laws that help everyone.
First of all, why would anyone in their right mind leave the heritage of Judaism? As Ezra stated, the only other choice is anti-theism.
Malcolm Gladwell is a surprisingly incoherent interviewer. He has great guests. But he really sputters and meanders. Still worth watching but he doesn't fully take advantage of his great guests.
What a load of identity politics to explain not much. Sorting, identities, political stories, conservative pundits. Not much about the real things that affect people's lives, like health care, cost of living, falling standards of living, stagnant wages etc. He misses a lot of salient facts that have a direct bearing on political groups. But then a lot of Axios reporting is like this.
yeah this was very unimpressive.
the sorting was the only interesting part of this
Edith Stein converted from Judaism to Catholicism
I like Malcolm Gladwel more and more with every interview he does or gives. I am as uninterested in Ezra Klein as one person can be.
Great talk but I feel the guy is a bit full of himself you can tell he thinks Rogan is just some meathead and you can see the disappointment when he sees Gladwell enjoyed and likes Jordan Peterson who's only sin is refusing to be bullied !
This is so interesting to watch after the insurrection at the capital.... 🤔
The last few minutes, describing how one party will change the rules to retain power, were eerily prescient and frighteningly true.
Turbulent Souls: A Catholic Son's Return to His Jewish Family
Malcolm Gladwell, with plenty of time to prepare: "I think of 'Irvine County' [There is no such place], and I think of Newport Beach..."
Also Malcolm Gladwell: "You have to know your Toronto geography to understand what I'm saying."
Labor/Employee 99% vs Owner 1% means Republican Identity is Manufactured and should be fringe
Truly, Obama Trump policies are same. We don't vote Dem as much ecause that party deliberately went insane as part of a larger 'End of The World Op'.
I think of Malcom Gladwell as a smart guy but you wouldn't know it from hearing this interview. The quality of questions in this interview are of that I would expect from the most intellectually mediocre people I know. Maybe he just didn't read the book; that would explain the bad questions that sound like they're the brainchild of someone who merely read the inside flap of the book on the way to the interview.
I was wondering why much of this Ezra interview sounded like incoherent nonsense. Then I heard Vox and it all made sense.
All I can think about is how polarized Ezra Klein became when interacting with Sam Harris, who rightfully called him out for it.
Ezra Klein is why we are polarized.
I think youtube comments like yours are why we're polarized. Go read his book and learn something.
@@Spike.SpiegeI This entire comment thread is full of people who are complaining about Klein without giving any nuance as to why, and ironically demonstrating exactly how polarised they are by being so one-sided and binary about their position. Which they might have a moment of self-reflection about, if they bothered to actually watch the talk and try to listen.
Hello to the superintelligent Ezra... Long time my favorite human being..
The idea that divisions and disagreements are sorted by party is undercut by the reality that most Democrats (in public office at the national level) are conservatives. If there is a polarization, as it relates to political parties, it is between the far right and the moderate right. While the moderate right is horrified by the dangerous views of the far right, the far right should theoretically like and agree with most of the views of the moderate right, except for a handful of wedge issues like gun control, abortion, and immigration. It doesn't, because actual views are not the source of the polarization.
Meanwhile, actual leftists, who are a large proportion of the population, have very little representation in government, and are really not included in this polarization. They strongly dislike the far right, and they largely dislike the moderate right, which they support grudgingly as a bulwark against the worst impulses of the far right.
I have never thought of a single identity, that Gladwell says everyone in the audience has a list is rather presumptuous. Succesful people like this tend to have streaks of narcissism and it spills out like this at times..
At 1:02:52 I laughed hard
Let’s answer an audience question… nope Gladwell interrupting with a rambling rant unrelated to polarisation with a point preceded by admitting he knows nothing about what he’s about to rant about. This guy is so frustrating
Toronto houses wherever they are go for millions these days so I don't think we can say that Jordan Peterson is working class.
Nobody is suggesting that he is working class.
He also makes like $60,000 - $70,000 per month, so yeah . . . not working class by any definition.
We are polarized because the South lost the Civil War and has been fighting a war of divide and conquer ever since. It’s quite easy, play on inherent xenophobia, racism and jingoism to convince the common man that the pariahs of society are the reasons that he’s not better off. The wealthy plantation owners figured this out in the 1700’s. Make a man feel superior to another, allow him to make just enough to get by, wrap it all in a flag and that man will help the plantation owner maintain and grow his wealth by helping control the chattel and preserve the state of order that makes it all work.
You have read your Howard Zinn!
The 'Fever Pitch' of politics exists because the fate of humanity depends on what happens next...a bit more serious than contending sports affiliations.
At the same time it doesn’t. We are all on a shared voyage to the grave and one day the stars will dim.
@@TheDentist27 nothing means nothing!
I get it though, everyone wants to feel important, as if this is an unprecedented time in history. For us currently living, yes, it may very well be, but take a look at a book called “The Fourth Turning” and some of the authors related works. It was written in 1997 but you’d think parts of the book were written today. Look into Ray Dalio’s latest book as well. I will say, I’m probably more pessimistic and apathetic than I should be, so maybe my feelings and bias lie more in that sense.
At least I’m aware of it, I guess. 🙃
I’ve always thought politics was the same as sport. People sure treat it the same. It might be a mix of good, bad, scary, and crazy all at the same time.