The Cure for Pedalboard TONE SUCK
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2020
- It's 2020, and a whole lot of people are taking the MIDI Switcher route-- what's not to love? Switchers like the Boss ES-5 are capable of giving you nearly complete control over your rig, while also streamlining your guitar signal, isolating unused pedals and saving you from tone suck!
Today, we're going to put a switcher-oriented pedalboard head to head with the Rig Doctor's pedalboard (all pedals in series, no switcher), to see which pedalboard gets closest to the sound of your guitar plugged straight in to an amp.
What differences did you hear between the MIDI Switcher Rig, All in Series Rig, and the clean tone?
⬇️ DIY BUFFER INTERFACE DIAGRAMS, TEMPLATES, & MATERIALS ⬇️
Mono - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer-...
Mono w/Tuner Out - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer-...
Mono w/Splitter - www.vertexeffects.com/diy-buf...
Mono w/Audition Loop - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer-...
4 Cable Method (FX Loop) - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer-...
Wet/Dry - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer-...
Stereo - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer-...
Buy VERTEX Pedalboards HERE:
reverb.com/shop/the-rig-docto...
Buy VERTEX Cables HERE:
reverb.com/shop/the-rig-docto...
Buy VERTEX Pedals HERE:
vertexeffects.com/store
🔻 //rig consulting//🔻
PRIVATE: www.therigdr.com/products/pri...
GROUP: www.therigdr.com/collections/...
🔈 //podcast// 🔈
Apple: apple.co/36dSQzK
Spotify: spoti.fi/2WGLku8
⬇️ //recommended materials// ⬇️
//buffers//
Vertex DIY - vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer
Mesa Boogie High-Wire (dual buffer) - bit.ly/2lZwS0s
Empress Stereo Buffer - amzn.to/33lyvHk
Vertex Boost - amzn.to/3hVwvN2
TC Bonafide Buffer (output buffer only - you'll need two) - amzn.to/2vrTSug
//power supply//
CIOKS DC7 - amzn.to/3d4qOty
CIOKS 8 - amzn.to/2zW5YOn
CIOKS 4 - amzn.to/33jWAOZ
Truetone CS6 - amzn.to/2wWLbII
Truetone CS7 - amzn.to/2x1Nf2k
Truetone CS12 - amzn.to/33rfLq3
Voodoo Lab x4 - amzn.to/2ILwKtP
Strymon Zuma - amzn.to/3dpZANe
Strymon Ojai - amzn.to/3evVXGE
Strymon Zuma R300 - amzn.to/2ZgLclt
IEC Plug Covers - bit.ly/34fpGl3
//pedalboard patch cables//
VERTEX Patch Cables - reverb.com/shop/the-rig-docto...
//instrument cables//
VERTEX Instrument Cables - reverb.com/shop/the-rig-docto...
//dc power cables//
2.1mm DC Power Plugs (right angle) - bit.ly/2pGqXzI
2.1mm DC Power Plugs (straight) - bit.ly/36wd1sA
Bulk Power Cables (pre made) - amzn.to/3ev1q0t
//midi//
MIDI Plugs (right angle) - bit.ly/2oKHDFG
MIDI Plugs (straight) - bit.ly/32fNNLF
MIDI Cable (bulk) - amzn.to/2tPAHWQ
//pedalboards, lifts, risers, bridges//
Pedalboard Surfaces - reverb.com/shop/the-rig-docto...
Pedal Risers/Lifts/Bridges - reverb.com/shop/the-rig-docto...
//velcro//
3M Dual Lock SJ3550 (for pedal) - amzn.to/2TP1rlu
3M Dual Lock SJ3551 (for base) - amzn.to/2I8a7SG
//cable management//
Zip Ties - amzn.to/2HP1Ulv
Tie Down Mounts - amzn.to/2r5ZkAN
//pedalboard tools//
Soldering Iron - amzn.to/2TTdMI4
Solder (60/40) - amzn.to/2U7XhsD
Solder Dispenser - amzn.to/2GpgMpR
Octopus Arms - amzn.to/2V3O8OD
Wire Strippers (30-20 AWG) - amzn.to/2BBMI6n
Wire Strippers (20-10 AWG) - amzn.to/2EbhBR3
Wire Snips - amzn.to/2EazwqU
Vise - amzn.to/2E9eTLO
Heat Gun (embossing gun) - amzn.to/2BwGdlm
Label Maker - amzn.to/2BCBcHU
Label Maker Tape (black) - amzn.to/2Cd3CZe
Label Maker Tape (clear) - amzn.to/34piDD4
Deoxit D5 Contact Cleaner - amzn.to/2GEm4gu
Truetone Milliamp (mA) Reader - amzn.to/2F9v3VN
Tone Brush - amzn.to/2HIfze3
Upholstery Crow Bar - amzn.to/2HIOU0K
Multimeter - amzn.to/2YW9BdE
Goo Gone - amzn.to/31rGJeS
👇 CLICK BELOW FOR ALL DIY DIAGRAMS 👇
DIY Power Cables: vertexeffects.com/diy-power-c...
DIY Interface: vertexeffects.com/diy-interface
DIY Buffers: vertexeffects.com/diy-buffer
CONTRIBUTORS:
Hunter Harrison - Mixing, Audio Editing
Mason Mejia - Co-Producing, Editing
Mason Marangella - Co-Producing
Nico Sotomayor - Videographer
#MIDISwitcher #PedalboardTips #RigDoctor 
Видеоклипы
Did you hear a difference in tone between the switcher rig, series rig, and plugged straight in? Tell us in the comments below! SUBSCRIBE: ruclips.net/user/vertexeffectsinc
I can hear a really small difference in transient of the upper frequencies but far less massive than what I was expecting. Both cables and fuffers do a great job.
What buffers did you use? Did you use the diy buffer you presented us? What cables?
Great video anyway thanks.
What are you listening on? I think that some of the differences can be attributed to the attack, which will of course have an impact, when I did the fast switching back-and-forth, I think it’s way less noticeable, because the attack is not so varied between the examples. Yes it was the DIY Buffer is made by creation Audio lab that I suggested in one of our episodes a few weeks back
Hey man! Great vid. I use a boss Es-8 everything is going through it except my boss 500 series. Do you recommend still using a buffer before the es8?
I use a jhs black box buffer and then run dual teleporters (like sgi box) to the amps.
I don’t recommend a buffer is inside of the unit, you’re much better off using a higher quality input and output Buffer to insulate it
@@VertexEffectsInc Anyway I was thinking of using buffers, your video convinced me I definetly need some to correct my pedal board tone. Thanks for the advice
These videos are so well done! Mason always cuts through the BS and gets right down to business. It's almost like he can read my mind because he keeps coming out with videos that specifically address questions I have and concepts I'm currently investigating. Much gratitude brother!
Thank you so much for your support! Thank you for watching
Great video Mason and appreciate the testing! I think where switchers are helpful is when you're trying to add in multiple pedals that are noisy, or as a "preset" to add multiple on at once. And with modern switchers, being able to change the order of the pedals gives more tonal flexibility - but tone doesn't seem to be a factor. Thanks and happy thanksgiving!
Thanks for watching!
Great Video Mason, I always learn something cool from your clips!! Keep on Rockin'!
Thanks for watching!
Another great video! Eagerly waiting for the pedal cable shootout.
Yes indeed! Coming soon
Through headphones the roll off is noticeable, even with RUclips comp. Great vid. Thank you.
Yes indeed! And you can download the tracks if you want that are all published in the links in the description.
Hey Mason, i just wanted to say thank you for your videos. I learned so much from your videos. You are a true inspiration when it comes to buliding pedalboards. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with beginners like me✌🏻stay safe
Thank you so much! I super appreciate it
8 true bypass pedals in series, no buffers, you'll get loads of tone suck ... the buffers make a huge difference.
Absolutely, but if you use a buffer on the input and output of that system, you’re going to get better results that if you have several Buffer or Pedals in between with all devices in bypass. As I’m sure you saw here were using the exact same buffering on bowls of rigs so that it’s consistent
Mason, in my pedalboards I only put a switcher to avoid having in series pedals like the digitech whammy, germanium fuzzes or many boss pedals that are a bit noisy. Thanks and congrats for the video! Great job!
I get it, functionally there are thing a switcher does that can’t be replicated. This video was explicitly looking at tone.
@@VertexEffectsInc Agree! Learning everyday with Vertex videos... going to be doing some serious soldering now 👍🏽
Amazing ! Glad I could help
Can I use the Strymon Zuma to power up the ES-5 and the ES 8 or is it better to use the power cable that the Es8 came with. Thanks in advance .
I have a pedal board with Polytune at front of series and ditto x4 at end with 9 pedals between. I used to use cheap daisy chain power supply's. After watching your videos I bought a zuma power supply and ojai thats slaved from zuma so all pedals have isolated power . Then I watched your videos on buffers and turned the buffers on in the tuner at front and ditto x4 at the end and wow what a difference. All so much better. I would love to get a g3 eventually just for the absolute variety of combinations available. someday ...... Thanks so much for you informative videos 🥰
🙏🙏🙏 our pleasure
It's amazing how just changing over too isolated power supplies improves things!!
Also strategic buffers really improve things.
Also another thing too do is making sure your cables are high quality & these really make a difference too!!
@@rickyjones7282 yes indeed, the holy trinity of pedalboards: isolated supplies, soldered cables, high quality buffers
@@VertexEffectsInc I use the Fender Professional Series Angle to Angle Instrument Cable, the better ones, they seem to be ok. Any thoughts on those?
@@barqbusker6597 I'd compare them to others...I like Mogami, Belden, and Canare instrument cables.
time stamps
0:30 switcher vs. series pedals
2:20 test method
5:02 direct sound
5:54 switcher/direct AB
7:38 series/direct AB
9:30 Keys to success: buffers, power, soldered cables
AB between switcher 5:57 and series 7:48
Build your own buffer ruclips.net/video/kZlPclHn450/видео.html
Solder your own cables ruclips.net/video/Z88EXSn9QY8/видео.html
Solder your own power cables ruclips.net/video/bO5V-3R6UHQ/видео.html
Top isolated power supplies ruclips.net/video/m1R9cPAcZ1Q/видео.html
You rock! Thank you!
@@VertexEffectsInc No problem. I did it for my buddies to whom I sent a link for this video (and for anybody else). Great video. I look forward to your next video!
Thank you again for your help with this
Great job Mason that's one of the points I was trying to get the people that the cabling and the way it's soldered the length of chord and the buffers have to be high quality otherwise you're going to get buzzed home everything I did want a little while back if only 5 and after we put 3 on it you could start to hear a difference with cheap cables excellent excellent excellent I still would want the mini switch that way I can turn on more than one pedal at a time click on it have a flanger and Distortion come on or your chorus with a little echo in it that's me I may have to talk to you about getting a pedalboard setup absolutely impressive good job man
Thanks for watching John!
rig doctor I love you, i hope some day can build a pedalboard with you! you are awesome!!
🥰🥰🥰
Good work, sounds clear all around. Input and output buffers just as necessary as true bypasses and good solder work. Rig Doctor ➡️ true clinician
Thanks for watching! I hope you found it helpful
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes, I always do. I look forward to getting into pedals/ effects as I have a few now but I'm still learning how to use my hands for tones but my first real pedal board will be created from your teachings when that time comes as a good start is good in all things. Thank you
@@BGsea thanks for being here!
I think if you use quality soldered cables, and buffered pedals like you suggest, it sounds fine. I think it is 99% a mental thing. There could be a slight difference in critical listening, but with a band, it would be a wash. If you need to have presets for a setlist, or you just have favorite pedal combos, a looper/switcher is really cool. I use a Morningstar MC6 to control my H9, and Specular Tempus. Its great for having one page to run through the presets on both, and an expression pedal. I also keep one switch on every page for a global tap tempo, and one for tuner access on the H9. The drives are just all in line before the other two pedals. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, its just what works for you.
Thanks for watching! I agree!
I have an ES-5 and a GE Fuzz Face (Bonamassa) and it doesn't like the switcher, doesn't sound right, I disabled input and output buffer for that patch but still doesn't sound as organic as connected directly from the guitar to the amp. I was thinking to use a true by pass switcher to isolate the switcher, like loop A/loop B selector. Put it before is not the best option for me because I'd go back to the tap dancing... Any suggestion? Thanks
I suspect there might be a cable issue if that's the case, with the input buffer off and the fuzz in loop 1 there should be almost zero difference between the pedal in or out of the switcher.
Another great video Mason! 😊 What is your signal chain on your personal pedal board here?
You can see it all here: ruclips.net/video/GySrQkgcK_U/видео.html
I'm not sure I understand - I havedvarious boards. One has 6 pedals in series with CIOCKS power. I also have consistent and high quality cables. It drastically changes the sound, muddy is one way to say it.. And I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do.
How can you hope to get a realistic comparison when you're not using exactly the same group of pedals . An honest comparison would be your pedal board vs your pedals hook up to the midi controlled switch like the other board
Hello Mason ! Great video here !
What is the pedalboard Scott is using ?
Is that the tour comp ou the travel plus?
Thanks
It's the Travel Plus, yes!
On my pedalboard I use a Line 6 HX FX in the so-called 4-cable-method and have a couple pedals I use in one of the HX’s FX loops. My amp is a Friedman BE Deluxe which has a buffered loop, and the HX is buffered as well. Would you recommend adding buffers to my ins and outs, or am I good as-is? Right now I think everything sounds great, but if there’s room for improvement I’d love to act on it!
You should probably be fine, especially if you'r using the HX in the loop, I think the output impedance is around 200 ohms...but I can't recall exactly.
Listening on 6" monitors and a little more compression on the loop switcher vs direct or series IMO.Very very close though.
Yes indeed, and that was my thought as well as I narrated in the video
Thought there would be a more pronounced difference,as you say good buffer(s) go along way, I picked up a high wire (Mesa) after watching a previous video of yours and I noticed a difference right away.
That’s a great one
Further proof the Rig Doctor knows his stuff. Wired in series and still perfect. What a Boss
Hi, Mason! I like to watch your videos, it's very useful)
Please, give me advise. Where shoud I place the buffer in chane when using Torpedo cab m? And if I use probably Mesa buffer, shoud I make a loop of all my board and then go to (in) torpedo?
I try to combine in my pedalboard torpedo and le crunch two notes in order to work in line. Is it normal to do it? Does it work? Or they overload each other? Today I tried to play using xotic SL>le crunch send one box pedal chorus+delay+booster>torpedo. It was good enough in clean sound, but so much treble... And when I switched xotic it was awful. So cliping. I love my pedals and i know, that they sound amazing. I dont know, where was a mistake? Can you help me?)
Thank you!
If you’re using the cab m for your amplifier, then I would suggest only using in an input Buffer.
Great Info, again. Would turning up the amp make a difference? Also, if you turn on any of those pedals, you negate anything you could hear. I agree with your findings, again!
Turning up the amps wouldn’t change the results - there wasn’t any volume drop if that’s what you’re asking about. I don’t hear a considerable EQ difference even that would warranty any real amp adjustments - I think any real detectable changes have more to do with my plying attack than a tone change.
Are seperate buffers better than the buffers built into boss pedals?
My board is mostly Boss pedals. And is there such thing as too many buffers? Like since my board has mostly boss pedals, can it over buffer the signal?
Yes, Boss pedal buffers are poor buffers. Yes, ideally you want a high quality buffer first and last and as much true bypass in between. Look at our list of approved buffers in the description.
I hear a slight comb filtering effect that affects the bass when you go through the switcher or the pedals vs the direct
There is some a little different about it, I also think my playing, and pick attack played into this. But I would agree this series Pedalboard was a little bit more neutral
The bypassed looper seems I tad brighter & snappier,but their was a bigger difference with no switching but not in a bad way!!
I've learned a lot & I have always gone trial & error with everyt6in line into my old Marshall's or Vox's,these don't have effects loops.
But strategic buffers is something that I've noticed when looking closely at my pedalboards!!
But as Ivey mentioned before & this is worth looking at (do a video on this & you'll be able to explain it in technical terms because you understand this!!) if you don't want a bad signal with everything in line use a guitar with active pickups such as EMG's.
Believe me,this is AWESOME & you can use 100% true bypass pedals & the active pickups sort out the buffering & they work!!!
There were some slight differences but I think some of it was dynamics in my playing as much as anything. Close nonetheless. EMG's have a place, I think that they got "typecast" for certain genres of music that were very polarized tonally. Active pickups are really putting the buffer in the guitar, just starting it earlier, but just like buffers on a pedalboard, you can have a bad one that ruins the tone just as easily with an onboard preamp as a pedalboard based buffer.
@@VertexEffectsInc Very true.But EMG pickups have more stigma attached than anything,but you only hear this by players who haven't tried them!It's because party Metallica use them,not that their's anything wrong with Metallica!!!
But just like life their are no pieces of equipment that are universally liked (I can't stand Fender amplifiers for instance,but I don't criticise people who do because by in large they don't like my personal favourites of old Marshall's & Vox's & I've never been criticised for my choice!!) but it's again a process of experimenting until things work as you want them!!
After 33 years of playing I'm still a novice regarding buffers & types of buffered/true bypass pedals,but I use my ears & if it sounds good then it is good!
How close am I in this regard?
@@rickyjones7282 if it sounds good, it is good.
Would series vs 4 cable method make a difference in tone?
Excelent topic!
Thanks for watching!
I’m watching this on my tv with the tv speakers. When you did the direct vs in series on your board (@7:44) I was hearing a bit of tone suck on the in series side. When I went back to listen to that section a few times in a row, it seemed to be really balanced and as you said, negligible. Might just be my ears playing tricks on me but I’m not hearing that tone suck any more.
I run an 8 channel loopswitchers switch on my board. Built it on a budget a few years ago and used soldered patches with salvaged RG58 coax cable. While it’s thin, it’s not very flexible but is very low noise and didn’t alter the tone at all. The switcher doesn’t have buffers, though it can be added on in future, and only a few of my pedals are buffered or true bypass and sadly have to have more than 8 pedals lol.
I attribute most of the difference to my playing and attack more than any real sound difference - being in the room with it - if anything - there was some slight compression feel to the switcher rig.
@@VertexEffectsInc if you ever revisit this or similar, maybe use a looper pedal so the signal is the same for each.
@@coachster I agree, that would be the most consistent way to do it to take the guitar playing out of the equation, however I think the overall results still stand here and prove the thesis which is, if you have a high quality buffer, cabling, and power supply you'll have a low noise, transparent rig overall - switcher or not.
I was thinking buying a Boss switcher and this video helped me to decide. I don't need one! Thank you Mason.
Absolutely! Just get good buffers, good cables and a good power supply! We have good diy videos on all this on the channel!
@@VertexEffectsInc I have already ordered 5 Redeemers to make your DIY buffer. Great stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
@@AminDehnavi my pleasure! Good luck with the build!
@@VertexEffectsInc Cheers man
@@AminDehnavi Sure thing!
Looking forward to this one
enjoy!
Hi Uncle Mason, Thanks so much for this video. I have a gig rig quartermaster 8 with an Empress buffer on the in and out. I tested the tone suck by turning on all loops but turning OFF all pedals. I heard very little difference as well if any. It actually made me want to remove the Quartermaster completely from my board. Is there any other benefit to using the loop switcher?
I don't think they're buffered you'd still want a buffered input and output. The Mesa Boogie High Wire or our DIY buffer would be good here.
@@VertexEffectsInc they are not buffered. I know this for sure. Are you saying my empress buffer is not as good as the one from Mesa boogie?
There is a difference...but it is so minute that when you play with a drummer and a bassist. I doubt you can tell the difference. This is where the debate of TB and buffered tone starts to get fuzzy. You can have the purest signal possible to man but can you tell the difference in a live setting?
We had a few guys at the shoot you a blind test, none of them could tell consistently one from the other. I think a lot of the differences are dynamic, since I didn’t play exactly the same time every time
Mason got a question if you can help trouble shoot. Imagine a perfect sounding board with no noise added to the noise floor. You play for a while using different pedals. You go to put your guitar in a stand and all pedals are off, amp is on. All of a sudden it’s like a high gain pedal hiss/raised noise floor. Nothing moved all premium cables and contacts clean. Until you turn on any pedal doesn’t matter which you get a pop sound and then it’s back to normal. Dead quite noise floor. Doesn’t matter what amp I use doesn’t matter the guitar. This randomly happens. Even after sometimes just letting the amps warm up and stand by flicked off. I haven’t even plugged my guitar in yet and sometimes that happens. Jiggled every cable, every patch every power connection. Tapped on each pedal. Nothing explains this.
I'd have to see it, maybe email us a video. What's the power supply?
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks mason, it’s a True Tone 1 spot cs12. All cables are Mogami. To amp and from guitar are Mogami also.
I’ve watch many of your videos along my journey of pedals and putting it in order and quality cables with soldered connects and cable choices. I believe to go along with what you teach is I might have to take a long to find out breaking my pedal board down and start off with one pedal and adding another till I find out randomly when the problem rears it’s head again cause I’m starting to believe maybe a pedal is going bad. But next time it happens I’ll video it and email to you. Thank you man. Much appreciated 👍🍺🍺
@@kenodysseys Yes please do, I'm curious.
@@VertexEffectsInc I figured it out. It was my orange Kongpressor. Once taken out of the system. No problems at all. All I can’t think it is maybe the charge pump from 9-18v is going bad. Time to replace it. Just glad I figured out the problem. 👍
My goal for next year is to get solder cables made. Right now I’m using erine ball flat ribbons but I feel like having solder cables will definitely be helpful for my rig.
Go for it! You'll never regret learning to solder! It will stay with you forever!
@@VertexEffectsInc you the man rig doctor! Love the channel as always definitely have learned many things off your channel other than cables ahaha.
@@aaronsanchez93 thanks for watching! We super appreciate it!
Hi Mason, I just want to confirm; So buffer(s) are not necessary when using switchers (with built-in buffers like the ES-8) assuming there is no pedals before and after the switcher? Is that right?
You need high quality buffers on the input and output no matter what if you want neutral - the switcher buffers vary greatly - some might be ok, most are terrible, few are great. The Boss versions are poor. If you have the Boss, I would go for a high quality dual buffer like I recommend in the description and bypass what's in the Boss.
@@VertexEffectsInc Okay, thank you Mason for the clarification! I'll go check out the link now.
Another great video
Thank you so much for watching!
For me, the switcher (RJM PBC6x) was more about the quality of life features. My amp has midi switching, and I use a few midi pedals (Empress Reverb and Delay, Meris Hedra), and being able to switch in any combination of pedals/amp channels/amp settings on the fly is amazing. And, the tone loss is minimal as well.
That’s a great switcher, I own one myself. However we’re not looking at it from a functional standpoint, I think it’s fairly obvious that there are things that the Switcher can do that a series of guitar pedals cannot. However looking at it from the transparency perspective, which is what a lot of people believe is the advantage who aren’t really going to be using MIDI in their rig anyway. I think of this is revealing to that end.
@@VertexEffectsInc For sure, agreed on all fronts. Was a very well done video to demonstrate that side of the equation. A well done pedalboard can certainly be transparent without a switcher.
Thanks for watching!
Great video. I ditched the switcher, I change pedals and positions too often, it became a pain.
I hear ya! Thanks for watching!
I just can't commit either.
I don't have a switcher like this. I just have a loop box and sometimes I think I hear a difference when stacking pedals in that loop chain, as to compared leaving one in the loop and one out of the loop and still running both pedals. I feel when in that loop, something is lost with tone.
As I say here, having high quality input and output buffers are critical.
@@VertexEffectsInc I came back to watch the video now its up. Yeah I need to get them. Thanks!
Thank you for watching!
I've got a switcher, but where do you recommend I place my buffer if I've got a Germanium-type fuzz pedal in one of the loops?
Some switchers will allow you to turn the input buffer off based on the preset. In that case you can use the fuzz in a loop. If that's not something your switcher does, you'll need to put the fuzz before the buffer and as close to the guitar as possible.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for replying! I'm using the EHX Super Switcher which does not allow me to turn the input buffer off. In this case I guess I would have to run my fuzz before the switcher?
Your thumbnail label says "do switchers improve tone". So , I was expecting an AB test between two boards. With and without a switching system. What you actually compare is the direct sound to the amp versus each board. Which finally comes to comparing a non buffered signal to a buffered one (since both boards had buffers). And there is audible difference, especially on high and high mid frequencies.
A guitar player with 10 pedals, tends to use them! So, the real test/dilemma/question is "how much tonal difference do I get between two pedalboards (with and without a switching system) while I play with e.g 4 pedals?"
This would only be a true 1:1 comparison if each pedal was the same on both boards. However, we have the approximate number of pedals on each and a mix of true bypass and buffered pedals on the serial board - which is pretty representative of what’s on most boards in terms of the bypass. Comparing to the reference (guitar into amp) is the ultimate goal if transparency is the litmus test. That’s what we did here. Can two similar size rigs with similar number of pedals sound close to the guitar into amp with no pedals? There were some subtle differences, some of them due to playing and my attack - but the answer is YES. You can get very close tone-wise whether you use a switcher or pedals in series. The buffers are the same on both rigs and this is part of the solution to get you that same tone: good quality input/output buffers, low capacitance cables, isolated power supply. Taking away the buffers would mean more variability on the rigs sonically because the pedals would be the buffers and they vary greatly in impedance - and not typically idea line drivers or to control the pickup loading. Hence the buffers are the “cure” as dictated in the question posed on the title.
@@VertexEffectsInc plot twist! 😆
Thank you for the extensive answer man =)
So, there is definitely audible difference, but not miles away. Quite close to direct to amp's sound from both boards.
Is it possible to make a true bypass boss pedal with a jfet style switch?
Sure, I think Jack Deville used to sell a kit
Big Thank You!! From Japan!
Happy to help!
I don’t like pedals too much - I live the sound of a distorted amp, and no pedal I’ve ever found matches the sound of spring reverb or amp tremolo. That being said, I do use a few pedals (Compressor, overdrive and a boost or two) and have a small board I gig with.
I recently have started to build some smaller boards for various things I do. I have a small ‘Hendrix’ board, aboard I take to jam sessions to play with friends, etc.
I finally started to build a larger board, and I’ve watched a lot of RUclips videos on paddleboard built. I hate most of the videos out there, the way people have boards laid out seems foolish and impractical most times.
Your bills however, besides being meticulous and a work of art, are very practical and to the point. I’ve really love watching your pedal board builds, and the routing boxes and such that you build are great. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with the world through this RUclips channel.
Thanks so much! This makes my day and why we do these videos!
I could hear (or I think I could hear) just slightly more articulation in the upper frequencies when you went direct than through both pedal board set ups but it all sounded good. I run 10 pedals in series but with no buffers. I tried running just a single OD/Dist combo pedal in front of my old Vibrolux and it definitely has more articulation and beef! I am going to use the set up at a live show this weekend and see how it sounds in a live band setting. What do you use for your buffers?
I think that more of the differences could be attributed to the difference in my guitar playing, and the dynamics. Nevertheless I did notice a slight bit of difference with the Switcher, that I didn’t notice in my own Pedalboard. In terms of the buffer, I do a DIY tutorial on our site and on our channel with lots of diagrams that you can follow which is a very high quality version, and equal version that is available over the counter, is the mesa boogie high wire
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you! I'll check that out. I just read that a Boss TU3 is a good buffer at the beginning of the chain which is what I have. Maybe I need something at the end?
No it’s not a good buffer, and whoever is saying that clearly doesn’t understand anything about buffers. Most people in fact even manufactures don’t really understand much about them. Basically the specification you want to look for is one meg input impedance, and 100 ohm output impedance. The input impedance address is the pick up loading, the output impedance addresses the line driving ability, and how much capacitance can be seen on the output before you start to get degradation. The boss Tuner has a one Meg input impedance, which is good, but the output impedance is 10 times higher than what it should be at 1K versus what I recommend which is about 100 ohms.
Yes you will also need an output Buffer this is why I suggest a Mesa Boogie high wire, because it has an input Buffer and an output Buffer
@@VertexEffectsInc HA!! Thank you again! Yeah I read that on another gear site and it make sense now! Funny, I wouldn't have noticed the difference if I hadn't had some work done on Vibrolux SF. To test it in my home studio I threw an old Jekyll & Hyde pedal in front of the amp and....BAM the amp about blew my head off! I noticed right off the bat how much more articulate it was clean and then hit the pedal and was amazed. I then hooked up my pedal board which has a mix of old and newer high quality pedals and realized a bit of a volume drop and loss on the high end. I am going to check out that Mesa Boogie high wire!
I think the best way would have just been to record a loop and then switch back and forth because the Dynamics are slightly off every time you're switching but still great video and I appreciate it
I agree...that would have been cleaner, but I think the purpose of it got across, there were not big differences especially when I went back/forth quickly more toward the second half of the demo.
@@VertexEffectsInc for sure. I see you have the collider... Do u run that through a loop or just strait in?
@@LoVeAmBiEnT in my rig, I run it in front, but I'm mostly using it with clean Fender style amps - Bandmaster's, Deluxe's, Showman's. Stuff that's clean and the dirt is from the pedals.
Buffers change the impedance of the signal chain seen by the amp and help to offset the capacitance of the cables. I didn't catch how long the cables were but a longer cable to amp and guitar will introduce more reactance. Over short distances (short cables) reactance would be negligible. Experiment might have gone differently without buffered pedals and longer cables to amp and guitar.
This is addressed in the video, both rigs have the exact same buffers on the input in the output - so that is controlled irrespective of the devices on the pedalboard itself. There’s a 10 foot cable going in and out of both pedalboards, same brand. Equally there’s a 10 foot cable going from the true bypass looper to the amp input and guitar. Again the same brand cable throughout, same lengths in the same spots. The intent here is to show that you can normalize the impact on the overall tone of the pedalboard, within reason, we’re not using 20 or 30 pedals which would stack the deck in the favor of the switcher in this case. However, for normal people, this would be a pretty common scenario and number of devices on the rig. What it shows, and I think you can see this yourself, is that there is very little difference between the rigs if you’re using high-quality buffers as a hardware firewall to insulate the pedalboard from the amp and the guitar from the pedalboard via the input and output buffers.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the response. Your video did indeed prove the point that you can reduce signal loss through buffering. I think my point which I didn't clarify and state explicitly is that if people don't have a buffer, or a decent quality buffer, in their signal chain they're not going to be able to stack the 8 to 10 pedals and get a similar result all the time. This is something that's more than implied in the video. I hope you have a happy Thanksgiving, thank you for bringing interesting signal flow content and again I appreciate the response.
I agree with that, we are trying to put the two Pedalboards on even footing as much as possible for the comparison, to show, all things being equal, that it will represent the direct tone very closely.
I'm looking at a switcher for studio use (outboard processing). ES-8 is really attractive since it can reorder as well as put pedals in series or parallel. You've mentioned the Boss buffers aren't so hot. Would the ES-8 deteriorate the signal more than the Mastermind PBC?
Most of them you can re-order the pedals including the Musicom, RJM, GigRig and others.
The buffers in the Boss are the worst of the bunch.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks ! Any idea when you will get the PBC/6x back in stock?
@@cadriver2570 I think it was a one time thing, maybe email RJM and request it.
I just did The Test > straight in vs. thru the board. Even though I am using 10 Top of the Line pedals, Zuma power & Mogami cables . . . " It's Not the Same " - (a very-slight difference). I am getting either the Empress or the Mesa Dual Buffer as shown by Mason. I used-to-think: this was all B.S. - it's also the feel and the snap or note-attack transients. oNe LovE from NYC
I think you’ll find a huge advantage and using the dual Buffer. If you can afford at the Mesa Boogie Is the very best for the commercially available buffers
@@VertexEffectsInc I want the Mesa, but I heard that it's quite-possible to: Accidentally activate the Mute? (I don't know, as I've not tried it personally) ??? I want the very best Top of the Line for my Tone. Thanks guys & Stay Safe.
You have to hold it down for over a second to activate the mute, otherwise it will just boost your output. I haven’t heard of this issue
@@VertexEffectsInc I will Try one for 2021. It does seem to be the best . . . I'd just hate for that to happen, during a live performance or a "keeper" studio take : )
@@michael_caz_nyc or you can DIY your own with the kit we recommended a few weeks back.
How about that Floyd tho? Where them divebombs at my bro 😂👌💯🔥
I will need to practice that a little more
You guys are the best.
Thanks for watching!
modulations like delay, chorus,tremolo sucks my distortion pedal
Responded in a few other comments of yours.
Interesting. I find that my setup actually sounds better with pedalboard (pedals in series no switcher) than straight in...using an Empress deicated buffer in and out, soldered quailty cables on board and quality cables to and from pedalboard. I have to really listen to hear and I may be wrong, but seems to be.
You can alway use a true bypass looper to a/b your pedalboard like we did here to compare.
@@VertexEffectsInc I did comparison just by plugging and re plugging...Maybe I fooled myself...both sound great bt ya would be better with quick switch from looper. I found your series pedalboard and Boss ES5 switcher sound a bit brighter here than staight in.
That’s always a speculative way to do it, the most accurate is to be doing the switching in real time, you can make yourself a passive AB box very inexpensively
I can hear difference. Cool video!
Did you find that one sounded closer than the other? Switcher versus the series of guitar pedals?
@@VertexEffectsInc Switcher sounded closer. Series had les body and a bit more scooped on the Mids.
@@VertexEffectsInc You know what? It doesn't matter. Its all subjectively. My pair of ears hears something, yours hear something else! Peace to all! ❤ Once again, nice video!
Whats the background music in intro? Songs cool.
Tim Marco did all that for us, check it out on Instagram
Certain pedals are notorious for sucking tone (like wah, I was thinking Dunlop mini wah in particular) - if you have high quality isolated power, no tone suck pedals, and are using buffers, it helps a lot. Also switchers help with more than just tone suck. Like turning many pedals on and off together, etc.
This is in a cure-all, but it’s also a pretty standardize suggestion for the majority of people that have at least decent quality bypass, even if buffered. There will be situations where you’ll have poor bypass, like on a vintage wah. On the Dunlop unit, you shouldn’t have any problem, those are pretty standard true bypass, updated to current standards. Perhaps you have a faulty Footswitch.
@@VertexEffectsInc It could be? I A/B tested the newish Dunlop CryBaby Mini even when off, and there was notable tone suck in the high end.
I would suspect that there’s something wrong with the device, I’ve worked on a few of these, and it’s a pretty standard bypass, you shouldn’t be experiencing any loss
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the tip, I'll look into it! It was the only pedal on a board in series of 8 pedals or so that was causing any loss of tone.
@@DavidFeilyMusic yes, I would check it out. This sounds unusual
I can hear the differences with a direct comparison, but there’s absolutely no way you would be able to tell the difference in a live setting with a full band
Certainly it would be a strain.
All the pedals in Series sounded a bit thinner to me
Seemed like the opposite to me in the room, that was the closest in my mind to what it sounded like directly into the amp, but again there’s the element of the picking dynamics which can alter some of this.
Your series board just ever so slightly, has a teeny, tiny little bit of high-end roll-off. But I probably only noticed because I have good ears. But negligible. Nothing turning a treble/presence knob up to compensate for the ever so slight difference wouldn't fix. Right? For me, it just just confirms my belief that I don't really need a switcher. With 4 Strymon pedals, 2 TC Electronic pedals, and 2 EHX pedals, plus 1 overdrive, I'm fine to go series (and with the option of running my wet effects parallel in my effects loop) with 8 ft of cable from guitar to board, and a buffer at the end of my board pushing 10-12 ft of cable to my amp , I don't need a looper of any kind. If I had MIDI pedals, and needed to change multiple effects, with different settings in a hurry, then it might be worth taking up all that realestate on my board to push one button to make that happen.
Well I heard in the room was the opposite, a little more natural with this series Pedalboard, and maybe a little less immediacy with the Switcher in terms of the attack feel.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yeah, I’m sure. Ears in a room is always different than a mic. 🎤And the “feel” just doesn’t translate in a video to what you were experiencing. I get it.
@@VertexEffectsInc ...or maybe BOSS’s buffers are not as “natural” sounding as other buffers. Your thoughts?
All of the buffers in the Switcher were bypassed, so we have the same input and output buffers on both rigs. This was done in order to normalize them, and this is also what I would do normally since I do not like what the BJT buffer is in the BOSS devices impart
@@VertexEffectsInc Right, got it! Crazy, unexpected outcome. Kid, ya wastin' ya money! Ha, just kidding.
The boss switcher sounded slightly darker. Your pedal board sounded the closest.
Thanks for watching!
The ES-8 actually has a negative affect to the tone IMO. I had a few pedals that did not sound sound good with the es-8 where on the rjm PBC 10 everything sounded much better.
I think if you have any of the Boss series devices, they are much more transparent if you use external buffers in bypass the buffer is included in the device itself. In that circumstance I think the functionality is great, uses the same switching matrix chip as RJM in fact.
Kerry Gansel i agree loss of some mids and treble. Just sounds a little muted imo. Loss of brightness
@@alanhunter4564 the switcher rig had more brightness.. lol
I think some of what you’re hearing is the attack difference, obviously I can’t replicate my hand exactly, hitting the string in exactly the same way. I think that the closest is when I’m going back-and-forth quickly on the same cord, it’s much less intelligible at that point. I also think that the series Pedalboard actually sounded closer than the switcher.
Mason thx again! Question- have you heard of the 29 pedals Euna ?
as another option to the Mesa Highwire
( they say it's not technically a buffer )
Yes, I was recently introduced to it. It appears to be well built but it’s only got one input buffer - not output buffer - so it’s not an apples to apples comparison to the dual buffer in the Mesa Boogie. The Euna is an input buffer with a loop for a fuzz that bypasses the buffer via Footswitch. Practically speaking, I don’t see a lot of value in this as you could simply put the fuzz or impedance sensitive device before the buffer. I also don’t align with the spec of the buffer - 2M input, 600 ohm output. It unloads the guitar pickups which I don’t think sounds like the reference of most amp which are almost all 1M. But this is a preference. Equally I think as close to zero ohms on the output but reasonably 100 ohms is ideal for line driving long cables runs without coloring the tone. 600 ohms might be ok in many circumstances, but not all. One feature that some may like is the EQ toggles, however my instinct is that the buffer really should have no color, no eq, by definition it’s neutral and shouldn’t have anything to exaggerate or boost frequencies. In any case, I think it’s well built and considerably better than almost all production buffers out there that are single buffers. I wish it had an input and output buffer and that you could control the impedance, but I’ve already given that feedback to the manufacturer.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the thorough response!
I've got both, so tryna decide what is best for my rig
If you have a Highwire, you certainly don’t need to get another buffer on there. I don’t see the advantage was going with the other device
I think that has solved my theoretical dilemma for awhile now. I'm gonna keep it simple and get a HighWire dual buffer and call it good :-)
I think you’re on the right track!
@@VertexEffectsInc My chain is roughly as follows:
Empress ParaEQ equalizer/clean boost
Strymon Sunset (dual channel overdrive)
Rivera Acoustic Shaman Chorus/Vibrato
Strymon DECO
Mission Engineering VMPro volume pedal with Peterson StroboHD tuner off take
Rivera Sedona LIte amp (with effects loop from/back to pedal board
Strymon DIG (dual channel delay)
Strymon BlueSky reverb
Strymon Flint reverb/tremelo
TC Electronics Ditto X4 looper
Strymon Iridium
(Mission Engineering SP25L Pro Expression Pedal for certain pedals)
with a Mesa HighWire for the front/back end of that board I hope it will be able to tame all of that!
@@grega1207 It will help a lot. Just make sure you have good cables, soldered preferably, and a good power supply.
@@VertexEffectsInc yep, I have a Strymon Zuma and Ojai R300 so covered well for power supply. I'm getting a new batch of Mogami cable and some good connectors and fire the soldering station up!!
@@grega1207 amazing! Have fun!
Cool. I think I can make this one.
See you there!
Oooops! I guess I'm bad at math. I'll be teaching online when it goes live. Oh, well. I'll be checking it out when I'm done!
And I see you're past 50K subs. Nice!
@@JazzRockswithAdam enjoy!
Anything I heard was probably dynamic and specifically your playing. I'm sure if you played a looped set of phrases, the differences I heard would be non-existent.
It's like you said, good power, good cables, good buffers are more important than anything else because it's science and electronics, not mojo that keeps tone clear and true.
Having two switchers, I can say that they're really only good for minimizing the tap dancing and maybe even find some programming options.
Functionally switchers are great, unmatched, but sonically they can be matched by a series pedalboard with good cables and buffering as showed here.
@@VertexEffectsInc solid science in this one. Keep testing the theories Mason, this is good content.
Tried to get a Loopmaster made for me. Paid for it and waited months and months and never got it. Emailed the guy multiple times and was always ghosted. Would not recommend!
Sorry to hear that. We got our second hand on Reverb, have you tried to reach our recently? I know they have a longstanding good reputation, I wonder if you're getting spammed out of their inbox?
Kind of a moot point after this video! Thanks for saving me some money! Also, you are a class act for your reply on the above comment.
@@georgepeirce4415 of course, my pleasure!
George, I had the same result!
in a live situation where the amps gunna be cranked, your gunna notice the difference. without the switcher is more dull and sounds like there is something blocking the speaker
If you're observing the "Holy Trinity of Tone" 1) high quality soldered low capacitance cables, 2) High quality input and output buffers and 3) Isolated Switch Mode Power supply, then you can get pretty close as this video and a/b test demonstrated. Also, experience tells me this having build hundreds of rigs that have been used in countless studios and stages.
Help! What do I do if I want to run stereo?
I’m not sure how this question relates to the video topic, can you explain what your question is?
Sorry for the ambiguity. I was wondering whether adding stereo fax to the mix would affect the analysis, but I guess it’s just an extra channel.
@@ZRJZZZZZ no, wouldn't change the outcome. The tone suck or lack of, doesn't change with two amps. You would however need to signal condition each output so you would need two separate output buffers, where as a mono system only needs one output buffer like we did here.
Hey Jason, could you do a video about stereo set ups? A lot of us have stereo delays reverbs and modulation which are in stereo at least in output…
Low key showcasing mad electrical tech skills
Hahaha! Thanks for watching Freddy!
@@VertexEffectsInc i have the same switcher and i love it. makes it so much easier to have presets on the go. And your welcome. lol
@@samxulumte9648 for sure, it's a great buy!
Yes indeed!
grey/lilac hospital-grade power cables? lol
So yeah, not hooking up in series and reducing the number of cheapo analogue I/O stages your guitar sound must go through will absolutely affect the sound. Shouldn't be noticeable outside of a studio or your home.
Capacitance in the signal path should be negligible as long as you don't use cables with silver-plated copper wiring (audiophile smut) as that stuff literally has a million times the capacitance of normal copper wiring (microfarads vs. picofarads - the analogue I/O stages in any music gear are not meant to have such huge capacitance loads on their outputs). Also, the many connections with pedals wired up in series introduces inductance, which will color the sound more than the insignificant capacitance per foot of each cable. Furthermore, plug quality matters a bit, best of the cheap is Amphenol plugs, not those Neutriks shown all over the video. Problem is, if you need pancake plugs, Amphenol makes none. Half the small difference cables make comes from the plug quality. If you want better than Amphenol, you'll need to go with custom-built cables utilizing Furutech FP-703 plugs, and those get far too stupid expensive.
Now, some manufacturers advertise "high quality" buffers, but they tend to NOT be that high quality, they all use the same cheap, low-end parts to design those circuits. If they used better parts + better design or design high-end discrete diamond buffer stages, tone suck would be much less relevant. Alas, that will never happen. More transparent, higher-fidelity analogue stages are no easy task, and the various engineers across the many manufacturers all vary in skill, experience, and mindsets, which is why the amount of tone suck varies from pedal model to another. Then you get a whole bunch of tone suck after chaining a half-dozen pedals with cheap cables and mediocre analogue I/O stages.
That "switcher" you demonstrated must be a type of mixer. I may try one out later.
I'm getting the same kind of noise when playing my vertex wah and a much cheaper piece of shit wah called the bbe ben wah. I know that the price tag would suggest I would better luck with this more expensive vertex design but it's the exact same. Any help here big guy?
C, have you tried cleaning the potentiometer? DeOxit D5 will work wonders on pots, in particular with devices like wahs where the pots are more exposed than on normal pedals. If you're still struggling, we have lot of replacement pots on hand that we could send if that doesn't resolve the issue. You may or may not be aware but the Axis Wah is an aesthetically modified version of the BBE Ben Wah, and in some cases there are also some component changes depending on the version you got. You can read all about it here: www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/axis-wah-announcement-coming-clean.1477492/ , secondly if you got it new from a dealer or from us and you're just learning about this now, we offer refund, rebates, exchanges, etc. based on what works best for you. Just email your receipt to info@vertexeffects.com and our guys will get the ball rolling for you.
Cool video.
Thanks for watching! I hope we earned your subscription
@@VertexEffectsInc A long time ago.
Please consider using closed toe shoes on the next build
Foot fetish? Some find it too triggering
@@VertexEffectsInc lol no the opposite - I hate man feet. It was a drunk comment. Love the channel.
I couldn’t hear a difference, great video!
I hope it was helpful!
If anything I didn't like what the Switcher added.
👍
Maybe it’s just my in ears but I hear a ton of difference between both. Sorry... I have a EHX Super Switcher with “zero” difference. Weird
What are you listening on? And how much of it is the pick attack versus what’s actually there. From my perspective in the room, it was pretty negligible between them, I would say I noticed a little bit more compression on the Switcher, but the series pedalboard was pretty right on. Of course anytime you’re converting your output signal to low impedance, you’re going to be removing quite a bit of cable capacitance that would be seen by the example that’s direct guitar into amplifier. I predict that that’s more of what we are hearing, certainly not any loss in tone that would result in a negative artifact.
I actually find that the electro harmonics unit that you have has pretty terrible relays, comparatively to the competitors, the buffer is equally are not great, I found more noise in that unit just running through it with no pedals connected whatsoever. Maybe I got a bad one?
What cables are you using in this test ?
Mogami 2524 for the guitar cables, Mogami 2319 on all of the Pedalboards
Should’ve bought a gigrig G3.
How would that have changed the findings?
Maybe you should have? Douche comment
@@bretthuhn8666
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
@@VertexEffectsInc
Hi vertex. Loved the video, just would’ve loved to see the a gigrig in the comparison. P.S massive fan of your Steele String pedals.
@@JonoEastGuitar I think it would be favorable as would the RJM...I think they actually have better bypassed tone than the Boss, as does the Musicom ones. I was just showing that they're pretty indistinguishable switcher or not.
I like the non-switcher board. Couldn't hear any difference.
👍👍👍
Switcher vs direct, switcher sounds a bit brighter and punchier. No appreciable difference between your board and direct. Like the switcher - a bit more expressive.
Thanks for watching, I also think the pic attack has a little to do with it since I couldn’t replicate exactly the same phrase every time, and the attack will affect some of the dynamic components and the EQ of the distortion
Thanks for the comparison. Pete Thorn has a great method for consistency - TC DITTO. Nonetheless, I still think there was a difference.
Yes, that would’ve been a better consideration, but I think it still gets relatively close nonetheless, and certainly gives you a close enough comparison that’s fairly negligible
From my end here the bottom end rolls off
On which one!? Thanks for the feedback. Could also be my playing.
Not all buffers are alike.
Proper vid starts @5:50. Repetition = ads.
Thanks for watching!
Is there a PhD for this? If so, you should be bestowed with an honorary
hahahaha...pedalboards, no PhD.
The Rig Doctor proving once again that some things are just psychosomatic. If only we were all made with external bias controls..
Yes indeed
The only thing that improves your tone is a programmed switcher. I put one of these black boxes on my board and it did absolutely nothing for my tone. Then I saw these holes and stuff in the back and Chaka khan!
Which black box? Remember not all buffers are created equally, and just one buffer isn't enough. As you can see here they were both pretty negligible when both done right, quality cables, power supplies, etc.
@@VertexEffectsInc actually have a boss-es8 and it has a great colorless sound quality. I also have the Es-5 but I have to say it does not sound as good for some reason. I would like to upgrade at some point to something better but it would have to have a volume loop/stereo loops/midi/ctrl outs. You videos are very helpful. Thanks