What genre is DOOM?

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  • Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024

Комментарии • 3,6 тыс.

  • @aaronchua5129
    @aaronchua5129 5 месяцев назад +10367

    Clearly Doom is a benchmark test for household appliances

    • @fus132
      @fus132 5 месяцев назад +112

      Real

    • @DinnerForkTongue
      @DinnerForkTongue 5 месяцев назад +197

      And portable appliances, such as phones, PDAs, calculators and pregnancy testers.

    • @rabidguineapig
      @rabidguineapig 5 месяцев назад +85

      I wouldn't be surprised if there's a couch somewhere that can run doom

    • @shidderalpha2293
      @shidderalpha2293 5 месяцев назад +72

      Not just electronics, they've even played it on bacteria

    • @GreyWolfLeaderTW
      @GreyWolfLeaderTW 5 месяцев назад +30

      Not that far from the truth.
      Some mad lad programmed a very basic form of Doom on low-powered graphing calculators as a hobby/joke.

  • @TheDeadmanstrolling
    @TheDeadmanstrolling 5 месяцев назад +6248

    "Doom is an action RPG" is a phrase that deals 2d6 psychic damage

    • @danieladamczyk4024
      @danieladamczyk4024 5 месяцев назад +156

      Becouse is true.

    • @germtm.
      @germtm. 5 месяцев назад +115

      technically true for the old Java mobile "ports".

    • @doomguy19931
      @doomguy19931 5 месяцев назад +65

      ​@@germtm. Man i remember playingg the DooM RPG on my flip phone in middle school

    • @AidenTan-t4n
      @AidenTan-t4n 5 месяцев назад +19

      I wonder if it haves 16 times the detail

    • @AgentHeroic
      @AgentHeroic 5 месяцев назад +34

      If you want a good Doom RPG, DoomRL (Doom Roguelike) is a good start

  • @Kinoksis
    @Kinoksis 4 месяца назад +376

    3:03 "But there's a bit of a problem in describing broad categories of games with the name of another."
    Dark Souls: 👀

    • @AkumaNoKuroi
      @AkumaNoKuroi 4 месяца назад +16

      SoulsBourne, anybody? XD

    • @seamusfinnerty5897
      @seamusfinnerty5897 4 месяца назад +17

      rogue too

    • @mrpositronia
      @mrpositronia 4 месяца назад +13

      Action RPG. Or it would be, if it were released in the 80s.

    • @olivetho
      @olivetho 3 месяца назад +19

      roguelike still being a genre name to this day (even spawned its own spinoff genre: roguelite)

    • @jorbore1413
      @jorbore1413 3 месяца назад +26

      metroidvanias:

  • @qwesx
    @qwesx 5 месяцев назад +576

    I'm so glad that you didn't find an angle to categorize it as a Pong clone.

    • @ClokworkGremlin
      @ClokworkGremlin 5 месяцев назад +47

      Missed opportunity. Now he's going to have to re-make the entire video from scratch.

    • @coriander_sun
      @coriander_sun 5 месяцев назад +93

      It's an interesting inversion on the genre - Instead of one ball being passed back and forth, you have an inventory of different varieties of one-time-use balls you can send out. And instead of trying get the ball past your enemy, the goal is to have as many as possible come into contact with them (while avoiding the balls they send out). It's a novel take on a genre that was in danger of going stale

    • @RevRaptor898
      @RevRaptor898 5 месяцев назад +9

      It is pong just the baddies are really bad at catching the ball, admittedly it is a very fast and painful ball :)

    • @DrSpaceman42
      @DrSpaceman42 5 месяцев назад +19

      @@coriander_sunI like how they still managed to capture the original spirit of pong despite the inversion!

    • @magnesiafrost1863
      @magnesiafrost1863 5 месяцев назад +12

      Pong killer!

  • @rosskwolfe
    @rosskwolfe 5 месяцев назад +3316

    "I will be taking no questions."
    Now that's a power move.

    • @juststatedtheobvious9633
      @juststatedtheobvious9633 5 месяцев назад +81

      It's how a troll runs away before anyone points out Gauntlet isn't any kind of RPG.

    • @arciks11
      @arciks11 5 месяцев назад +154

      ​@@juststatedtheobvious9633Ahoy woke up and decided to use his skills for mild evil. I respect that.

    • @ghoulbuster1
      @ghoulbuster1 5 месяцев назад +11

      Chad

    • @JustKrin
      @JustKrin 5 месяцев назад +22

      If you want to ask him about it, wait until the next video. We're back in the play by mail era with Ahoy

    • @electricboogaloo2369
      @electricboogaloo2369 5 месяцев назад +6

      ​@@juststatedtheobvious9633 >ahoy >troll
      lol

  • @ocha-time
    @ocha-time 5 месяцев назад +1086

    Fun fact: back in the day, Apogee distributors had what they called a “Shoot-em-up Collection” that I wanted Dad to get me. Immediately he got angry and said “I’m not buying you shooter games.” And I had to go like no, Dad, it’s stuff like Terminal Velocity and Raptor, and I THINK it also had Biohazard, which is what I really wanted. He was like “oh”. Still didn’t get it. Within a couple years we were playing Doom deathmatches AdHoc over a telephone line.

    • @Yotarian
      @Yotarian 4 месяца назад +25

      Oh man... Terminal Velocity and Raptor were awesome.

    • @ocha-time
      @ocha-time 4 месяца назад +9

      @@Yotarian TV was my jam, I loved that music, Fury3 was sick too

    • @Gwunhar
      @Gwunhar 4 месяца назад +5

      Raptor is on Steam these days! I love that game still.

    • @txcrix9236
      @txcrix9236 4 месяца назад +1

      ​@@ocha-timeI loved Fury 3! New Kroy and it's soundtrack will always be my favorite.

    • @Irisfantasies
      @Irisfantasies 4 месяца назад

      @@txcrix9236 Fury 3 might be my all time favorite pc game honestly... i still remember playing the demo when i was a child it came on a windows 98 cd haha

  • @TrumpLester
    @TrumpLester 5 месяцев назад +1787

    "Daikatana was a Quake killer."
    Now comes the part where we throw our heads back and laugh.

    • @jojothefine
      @jojothefine 5 месяцев назад +301

      Daikatana was a Daikatana killer

    • @SosumiInc
      @SosumiInc 5 месяцев назад +26

      Daikatana got pretty good with the latest fan patches.

    • @atifarshad7624
      @atifarshad7624 5 месяцев назад +30

      ​@@SosumiInctrue. It did become decent, but still nowhere near Quake killer.

    • @ShadowAngel606
      @ShadowAngel606 5 месяцев назад +6

      @@atifarshad7624 It definitely is better than Quake 1 (Tech Demo and nothing more, considering the advances the build engine FPS' made, Quake being on the same design level as Doom was in 1994 was lame) and Quake 2 (which is probably the most overrated FPS ever)

    • @mortenera2294
      @mortenera2294 5 месяцев назад +12

      @@ShadowAngel606 Quake 1? I can definitely understand that. The dark blocky graphics aged kinda poorly, the enemies look stupid with their pre-rendered sprites and most levels can be boring. But Quake 2 sure as hell ain't overrated, it's still great fun today.

  • @mixererunio1757
    @mixererunio1757 5 месяцев назад +2133

    First I was like "Thats a stupid question. It's an FPS"
    But then I noticed is an Ahoy video. And I became really intrigued.

    • @ikagura
      @ikagura 5 месяцев назад +45

      Like the first video game

    • @LyaksandraB
      @LyaksandraB 5 месяцев назад +63

      FPS is a modern classification, though, so you're applying that label retroactively. I haven't watched, but I imagine the video will be about what genre it was considered back then.

    • @drunkndwrf
      @drunkndwrf 5 месяцев назад +12

      I wasn't ready for Doom to be classified under that genre.
      Love your videos when they come off as a riddle to your viewers.

    • @NeroVingian40
      @NeroVingian40 5 месяцев назад +6

      The video even opened with the exact same question lmao

    • @mypdf
      @mypdf 5 месяцев назад +18

      @@LyaksandraB Genre names are always retroactively applied to games, as a genre only exists when there are multiple games that have similarities. You can't have a genre with just one game in it. So in the beginning Doom was just Doom, but as the genre started to exist it fell into the newly created FPS genere.

  • @LesGummo69
    @LesGummo69 4 месяца назад +156

    In Italy we simply referred to every game with a lot of shooting involved as "sparatutto", literally "shooteverything" being there fps, side scrolling shooters or whatever. i don't remember when the thing stopped, but i'm pretty sure it lasted at least well into psx era

    • @momsaccount4033
      @momsaccount4033 3 месяца назад +1

      I like that term. I think I will use it

  • @Brunosky_Inc
    @Brunosky_Inc 5 месяцев назад +1331

    5:34 "Co-op's for girls? Not according to Team Fortress 2"
    That is _certainly_ a headline.

    • @burnthompson286
      @burnthompson286 4 месяца назад +124

      Of all the headlines that came out that year, that is certainly one of them

    • @burnthompson286
      @burnthompson286 4 месяца назад +152

      Its crazy that TF2's production looked like that
      Holy crap the article is from 1999 and the expected release was SUMMER. It took over 7 years to release from that point!

    • @jacobspadt2567
      @jacobspadt2567 4 месяца назад +67

      @@burnthompson286 I'm not certain but I assume the article was about TF Classic, which may have been called TF2 before release. TFC released April '97 and would've been the sequel to the original Quake mod.

    • @Matth3w23
      @Matth3w23 4 месяца назад +41

      @@jacobspadt2567 In the bottom left it says that TF2 is scheduled to release just before Quake 3, which was released (and announced I think?) in 1999! And also it definitely looks like early TF2's more realistic theming.

    • @Tuxfanturnip
      @Tuxfanturnip 4 месяца назад +114

      every TF2 player coming out as trans 20 years later:

  • @novelezra
    @novelezra 5 месяцев назад +576

    I wish I could have been there to see John Carmack hear about texture mapping for the first time (probably one of, if not the most important technical leaps in 3D game design), only to pause for a few moments to ponder this concept and then say:
    "I can do that"
    And then do it on a scale that is still astonishing to this day.

    • @rya3190
      @rya3190 5 месяцев назад +28

      I've had those "ah, ha!" moments... wish I had half of Carmack's drive and ability to bring them to fruition.

    •  4 месяца назад +78

      I don't think he heard about texture mapping for the first time then, it was already a thing in computer graphics for a long time. Rather it was probably the first time he heard someone say they are going to do it on commodity hardware in real time (in a game).
      Compare to how ray tracing has been around for over half a century in computer graphics, but is only now becoming feasible to do in games in real time.

    • @Roxor128
      @Roxor128 4 месяца назад +19

      @ The Demoscene has been doing real-time raytracing since 1995. Transgression 2 by MFX from 1996 being a good early example. Heaven 7 by Exceed from 2000 ups the capabilities. Still Sucking Nature by Federation Against Nature from 2003 looks better than games of the era and showcases environments that wouldn't be out of place in one with system requirements of just a Pentium II with 128MB of memory.
      Well, okay, it _has_ fallen out of favour in recent years, due to ray-marching of signed distance fields catching on, as it's a hell of a lot easier to make organic stuff with it than raytracing or rasterised polygons.

    •  4 месяца назад +25

      @@Roxor128 Yes. The demoscene does cool stuff, but it's also not quite the same as what you can achieve in a playable game.

    • @BaddeJimme
      @BaddeJimme 4 месяца назад +2

      IIRC Carmack was inspired by news that Ultima Underworld was going to have texture mapping, which led him to realize that he could do it much more efficiently, albeit in a limited way.

  • @Burn_Angel
    @Burn_Angel 4 месяца назад +633

    Doom doesn't require you to kill enemies aside from boss fights (which we could say, they count as 'special levels'). It's just about getting from point A to point B, maybe looking for a couple of keys.
    It's a walking simulator, with obstacles. An interactive walking simulator, if you might.

    • @chazcampos1258
      @chazcampos1258 4 месяца назад +38

      So it was a failed attempt at inspiring physical fitness.

    • @YayaFeiLong
      @YayaFeiLong 4 месяца назад +24

      Well, more of a running-full-tilt simulator, really

    • @Burn_Angel
      @Burn_Angel 4 месяца назад +49

      @@YayaFeiLong Funny you mention it, I was going to write it as "Wheelchair simulator, but in Mars/Hell", since, because you can't jump, the idea of Doomguy being on a wheelchair has been a running gag ("running" gag, lmao) for decades.

    • @k0lpA
      @k0lpA 4 месяца назад +14

      it's a racing game

    • @RustBot42
      @RustBot42 4 месяца назад +3

      @@Burn_Angel I second this motion.

  • @pawahara
    @pawahara 5 месяцев назад +2057

    WAKE UP BABE AHOY'S UPLOADING AGAIN

    • @user-03-gsa3
      @user-03-gsa3 5 месяцев назад +25

      new kino just dropped

    • @APHEXACE
      @APHEXACE 5 месяцев назад

      Kino ​@@user-03-gsa3

    • @Dootsauce
      @Dootsauce 5 месяцев назад +18

      WE UP WE WATCHIN WE SITTING DOWN

    • @r3d3y3dstranger
      @r3d3y3dstranger 5 месяцев назад +1

      @@user-03-gsa3 Tsoi lives!

    • @gdzpseudi
      @gdzpseudi 5 месяцев назад +1

      So true 😂

  • @burnthompson286
    @burnthompson286 5 месяцев назад +424

    I gotta say, when I first saw the title of this vid, I immediately thought "dungeon crawler". To me it seems like Doom gameplay focuses equally on shooting and movement, especially navigating the often maze-like levels. Evidenced by the fact that you dont strictly need to kill every monster to advance to the next level. Thanks for the great vid as always!

    • @planetdrull1701
      @planetdrull1701 5 месяцев назад +29

      Even the score at the end of the level is decided by the number of enemies killed, power ups used and secrets discovered. Each level was really a unique dungeon to explore

    • @Grease-Goblin
      @Grease-Goblin 5 месяцев назад +29

      Dungeon crawler is a pretty solid one, actually. I would have called it a first-person action game, but this feels like a natural description for the time. It certainly seems like a more sincere attempt at defining Doom's genre than to call it an action RPG.

    • @adre2194
      @adre2194 4 месяца назад +16

      I think people often put too much emphasis on how much combat made up Doom. It was big yes but like you said the exploration was just as much. I genuinely can't object to calling Doom a dungeon crawler.

    • @MrCantStopTheRobot
      @MrCantStopTheRobot 4 месяца назад +7

      Levels with dense enemy placement definitely become "first person shmups" or "first person bullet hell" as you weave between projectiles.
      But recall that Sandy Peterson designed levels with D&D consciously in his mind. Which he mentions in almost every interview he's given.

  • @OscarGreenworth
    @OscarGreenworth 4 месяца назад +44

    The phrase DOOM clone reminds me of the term souls-like. A game so successful that it inspired an entire new genre.

    • @xBINARYGODx
      @xBINARYGODx 3 месяца назад +3

      we still use the term rogue like and rogue lite - and no we even have a game calling itself Souls-lite, so... but anyway, Souls like is not a genre, its a sub genre of 3rd person action game OR perhaps of aRPG.

    • @NihongoWakannai
      @NihongoWakannai 2 месяца назад

      After more than a decade since release people still can't even clearly define what a "souls-like" is. It's a fake genre.
      I can define other genres easily
      "Roguelike" has permadeath and procgen.
      "Metroidvania" has a semi-open world with new areas unlocked through permanent powerups
      But no one can give a solid definition of "souls-like" which doesn't get broken by fromsoft's own games.

    • @MonsieurMoai
      @MonsieurMoai Месяц назад

      Souls-like, rogue-like, DOOM clone, quake killer, GTA clone…
      We should just start calling everything a “____ clone” or “____-like”

    • @wintersong2266
      @wintersong2266 Месяц назад

      ​@@xBINARYGODx We also still use the term Metroidvania.

  • @rgal
    @rgal 5 месяцев назад +943

    DOOM is an adventure game in which pointing and clicking elements on the screen is a key game mechanic.
    A point-and-click adventure, if you will.

    • @juststatedtheobvious9633
      @juststatedtheobvious9633 5 месяцев назад +31

      It makes more sense than his nonsense about arcade quarter munchers being RPGs because keys, smart bombs, and health packs dressed up in fantasy gear.

    • @HeltonYan
      @HeltonYan 5 месяцев назад +35

      @@juststatedtheobvious9633 why are you so passionate about his statement? Are you personally offended that gauntlet is obviously an rpg?

    • @RutabagaSwe
      @RutabagaSwe 5 месяцев назад +27

      @@HeltonYan I don't think Gauntlet is "obviously" an RPG in any way, to be fair 😅

    • @nthedecent7717
      @nthedecent7717 5 месяцев назад +17

      TF2 sniper main here, I will defend that point with you
      *ba-dum-tss*

    • @HeltonYan
      @HeltonYan 5 месяцев назад +9

      @@RutabagaSwe shhh i'm trying to piss off the other guy there

  • @lainothefirst
    @lainothefirst 5 месяцев назад +1244

    Carmack was kinda crazy with it. Like, he just hears some term from Romero and casually goes with it.
    "Texture mapping? ...yeah, I can do that." Gigachad behavior

    • @Sekir80
      @Sekir80 5 месяцев назад +114

      I have high respect for Carmack. Guy can talk about anything for an hour and I just watch in awe. Interesting how efficient he is.

    • @AnimatedStoriesWorldwide
      @AnimatedStoriesWorldwide 5 месяцев назад +123

      Carmack is as good, as Romero was proud.
      You needed both of them to make Doom/Quake

    • @ghoulbuster1
      @ghoulbuster1 5 месяцев назад +36

      Carmack the Code God

    • @hoorayimhelping3978
      @hoorayimhelping3978 5 месяцев назад +85

      Knowing what I know about him, he was probably already investigating texture mapping and thought it was cool and came up with a novel way of doing it that was 40% more efficient, so he went ahead and whipped up a demo on Friday from 6:00 PM until 3 the next morning.

    • @pauloricardo-wn6ps
      @pauloricardo-wn6ps 5 месяцев назад +99

      Benevolent hyper-intelligent architect of the post-singularity simulation we all live in, John Carmack was beast

  • @LeeeHack
    @LeeeHack 5 месяцев назад +148

    Come to think of it, EVERY game is some sort of an RPG:
    - HalfLife? - you take on the role of Gordon Freeman
    - Quake? - you are now a Ranger
    - Railroad Tycoon II? - you are now the Fat Controller...

    • @r0de
      @r0de 4 месяца назад +34

      Its something I noticed in the behaviour of certain players. Taking on the ROLE of the character you inhabit.
      Its most noticable when you see people playing and kinda going "along" with the script. I distinctly remember watching a friend play HL2 and when he was in a conversation with Kleiner in the chapter 'Red Letter Day', he'd actually nod his head to one of Kleiner's questions. I asked him about this and he plainly told me "Well, he's my friend and he just asked me a question. It'd be rude not to answer"
      Its a rather fascinating part of player psychology and immersion

    • @AccoSpoot
      @AccoSpoot 4 месяца назад +10

      Convinced my friend, who only plays football manager games, that he was actually playing an RPG.

    • @BigBuckies
      @BigBuckies 4 месяца назад +11

      honestly why I think the RPG label is a bad descriptor, it can technically be applied to all games, but it got applied to games like elder scrolls and ultima, or jrpgs like dragonquest and final fantasy, I imagine because of dnd role playing connotations, though I could be wrong about that when applied to the jrpg side, either way, it's really not that good at conveying what the game will be like if you don't know what games it applies to already, which kind of defeats the purpose of a descriptor

    • @versace6609
      @versace6609 4 месяца назад +7

      Does that mean GTA is an RPG ?

    • @BigBuckies
      @BigBuckies 4 месяца назад +5

      @@versace6609 yeah sure why not

  • @wcsoblake85
    @wcsoblake85 5 месяцев назад +95

    Ahoy is like the favorite uncle. You barely get to see him but you are always thinking about Him. When he shows up unexpectedly, you get excited!

    • @Pangloss6413
      @Pangloss6413 4 месяца назад +6

      I like how your pfp is of firefighters and EMTs but not cops

    • @Wyrm3
      @Wyrm3 4 месяца назад +4

      ​​@@Pangloss6413as it should be

  • @Glegh
    @Glegh 5 месяцев назад +1237

    Doom. The genre is Doom.

    • @ridhosamudro2199
      @ridhosamudro2199 5 месяцев назад +61

      If not, then why's the other game is called "Doom Clones"?

    • @danmur15
      @danmur15 5 месяцев назад +2

      My first thought too haha

    • @LyaksandraB
      @LyaksandraB 5 месяцев назад +2

      Yeah, sure, but that's the endpoint of collective consensus. Surely there were more labels along the way, and we should put special consideration on the ones the devs thought up. I mean, they made the damn thing.

    • @machinatingminotaur6285
      @machinatingminotaur6285 5 месяцев назад +2

      @@LyaksandraB you don't need collective consensus to have been blown away by what doom was and what it offered in 93. I didn't need anyone to tell me this was something else entirely

    • @oliparkhouse
      @oliparkhouse 5 месяцев назад +1

      ​@@LyaksandraBwell said, memes be memes but there's time for philosophising too.
      Apart from @machinatingminotaur6285 he simply felt it in his bones

  • @WhiteZet1
    @WhiteZet1 4 месяца назад +36

    3:10 - Just realized we do indeed call rogue a roguelike. Also would be interesting to see Ahoy cover the topic of roguelikes/roguelites.

    • @AkumaNoKuroi
      @AkumaNoKuroi 4 месяца назад +1

      Just like we have a whole genre of games named after their similarities to the pivotal games Medroid & Castlevania - MetroidVanias! XD

    • @LonelySpaceDetective
      @LonelySpaceDetective 4 месяца назад +3

      In addition to what you two said, people absolutely call Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne "Soulsborne" games.
      (Even if I don't because they're just action RPGs)

    • @WhiteZet1
      @WhiteZet1 4 месяца назад +2

      @@LonelySpaceDetective Tbh I dislike calling games ARPG because it means too many things these days. Feels like anything is an ARPG. Soulsborne actually is a lot more specific.

    • @AkumaNoKuroi
      @AkumaNoKuroi 4 месяца назад +2

      @@WhiteZet1 Diablo (1996) is an ARPG in the purest sense, that was born as a D&D-style campaign that originally was going to be turn-based, but during development they found it doing 20 turns-per-second in the background gave it a responsive real-time gameplay with an addictive gameplay loop.
      This spawned a franchise that's now 28 years old with competitors in the Torchlight series and Path of Exile, both of which were worked on by ex-Blizzard North devs that made the original Diablo, Diablo II (2000) & Diablo II: Lord of Destruction (2001), that left the company during the development hell of Diablo III (2012).

    • @WhiteZet1
      @WhiteZet1 4 месяца назад +1

      @@AkumaNoKuroi Yeah but some ppl call Bloodborne/Dark Souls games ARPG. As well as the DMC series. And Dragon Age Inquisition. It's lost all meaning in my eyes, as helpful as calling your game an rpg.

  • @tehbigshow
    @tehbigshow 5 месяцев назад +342

    I remember way back, before Quake, I used to call what we now call FPS, shoot-em-ups. Anytime I searched that genre, I got top-down shooters. Never understood this. Back at this time, the term 'corridor shooter' was what we call Doom-like games. FPS feels like it took hold around the time Half-Life came out.

    • @ronindebeatrice
      @ronindebeatrice 5 месяцев назад +27

      Yup. All I wanted in the mid 90's were FPS games. "Shooter" was about all I knew to try to find them. All I got were top down and 12 year old me saw those as old hat.

    • @DrundeFPS
      @DrundeFPS 4 месяца назад +2

      And then Half-Life came out and ruined the genre.

    • @thechief00
      @thechief00 4 месяца назад

      i remember too when all these games were just called "shoot-em-ups"... we're old now. lol

    • @ActionGamerAaron
      @ActionGamerAaron 4 месяца назад

      Return to shmups and be happy.

    • @SmallSpoonBrigade
      @SmallSpoonBrigade 4 месяца назад +2

      IIRC, shoot em ups are often called shmups now for reasons I don't really get. And corridor shooters came along more recently than FPS because there wasn't a need for the term until there started to be arena shooters that had a bunch of large areas doing the bullet hell equivalent from shoot em ups.

  • @IAmEnormous
    @IAmEnormous 5 месяцев назад +180

    I played the original games after the 2016 revival, and all I could think was, "People really do not talk enough about how much dungeon crawler DNA is in these games."

    • @madjackmadjack
      @madjackmadjack 4 месяца назад +21

      Absolutely, just like Diablo 1 was originally going to be a turn based Rogue like. Dungeons and Dragons and Rogue contributed a lot to both of these foundational titles.
      Also, if you want it to feel even more like a dungeon crawler, load to each level with cheats or intentionally die and respawn; you'll start each level just liley you started the first, with a pistol and fifty rounds of ammo. Then each level becomes a puzzle, as you try to rebuild your arsenal and defeat or avoid enemies without the benefit of previous levels' surplus supplies.

    • @LocalSlasher
      @LocalSlasher 4 месяца назад +16

      ​@@madjackmadjackaka pistol start; iirc they made every level with that in mind too.
      Hmm... So what you're saying is Doom... is a puzzle game. Brilliant!

    • @BlackJar72
      @BlackJar72 4 месяца назад +3

      To me Doom is fundamentally a dungeon crawler with guns (that is also an FPS in that it has a first person camera and focuses on shooting); the dungeon crawler aspect is something that seems missing in newer FPS games I've played (replaced by over-complicated controls to support more actions than needed) -- which is why I loved Doom and Hexen, but don't really like modern FPS, and the first "real" game I made was a Doom clone at its core a billed as a "dungeon crawler with guns." I like first person dungeon crawlers, not shooters per se.

    • @madjackmadjack
      @madjackmadjack 4 месяца назад

      @@BlackJar72 Yeah, absolutely.
      Have you tried Kings Field or Lunacid?

    • @SixtyEmeralds
      @SixtyEmeralds 3 месяца назад

      What you have me wondering, now, is if someone could make a dynamic dungeon crawler using the Doom Engine. Now, I'll admit I've been playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic and that game has been on my mind a lot, and a lot of what that game is doing is what I'd like to see, just maybe for the dungeon crawler genre instead of the space dwarven fantasy genre.

  • @rafaeldasilva6247
    @rafaeldasilva6247 4 месяца назад +24

    I'm on the hospital treating what I believe and hope is a minor infection, and seeing this pop up on my recommendations brightened my day immensely.
    Also, I loved the use of the "Suspense" theme, it was a highlight on the previous Doom video, and didn't disappoint here either.
    Finally, "Doom is an action RPG". This is the evilest thing I've ever seen in a while, I loved it!

  • @TheBellTolls
    @TheBellTolls 5 месяцев назад +323

    "Thank you, I will be taking _no_ questions."
    Perfection.

  • @Vodkarn
    @Vodkarn 5 месяцев назад +113

    Talk about a blast from the past. I'm in my 40's now, and this reminded me that very early on, people would use 'FPS' to mean "First-Person Shoot-'em-up". We even (briefly) said 'TDS' for "Top-Down Shoot-'em-up".
    Thanks Ahoy, for the memories ;)

    • @gentuxable
      @gentuxable 5 месяцев назад +4

      If you're playing a "Top-Down Shoot-em-up" shouldn't you close your eyes when killing something?

    • @TheJacklikesvideos
      @TheJacklikesvideos 5 месяцев назад

      @@gentuxable yes, you have to wear your safety squints.

    • @SmallSpoonBrigade
      @SmallSpoonBrigade 4 месяца назад

      I think a lot of this depends on how into gaming mags people were because it wasn't until a few years later than the internet became common enough to shape the way that the terms are used in any significant way.

  • @hrrawr
    @hrrawr 4 месяца назад +10

    Your logic is actually extremely sound and this is really good presentation. Bravo! More straightforward than I expected, thank you.

  • @Henners
    @Henners 5 месяцев назад +65

    The reference to 64 Magazine at 1:56 calling doom a “First person shoot’em up” was referring to Doom 64 from 1997, after the genre title was already defined

    • @TheJacklikesvideos
      @TheJacklikesvideos 5 месяцев назад +9

      the whole first half and the related part in the second half are all just a time capsule of how video game journalism has always been the lowest form of journalism. they were trying to fill pages and paid by the word, and long after saying "first sight" twice before calling Descent a DOOM clone they were still hyping the next thing as Halo killers.

    • @Nukle0n
      @Nukle0n Месяц назад

      Should be a stickied comment honestly, Ahoy made an oopsie.

  • @BenzaieLive2
    @BenzaieLive2 5 месяцев назад +68

    only works if nobody questions Gauntlet as an RPG, when it's mostly based on mazes & shooting, truely inspired by RPGs, like Druaga, but Doom is evidently molded from catacomb 3D evidently molded after catacomb, which is drawn frow gauntlet, but gauntlet has more to do with shooting in mazes than dungeon master is

    • @pvanukoff
      @pvanukoff 4 месяца назад +8

      I agree. Gauntlet is NOT an RPG. It has some RPG-like elements, but it's primarily an overhead shooter.

    • @Paraninja
      @Paraninja 4 месяца назад +2

      This is what I came to say even knowing the video is tongue in cheek.

    • @LutraLovegood
      @LutraLovegood 4 месяца назад

      @Arnathor4582 Doom is an Action Roguelike. Not to be confused with the Doom roguelike "D**m, the Roguelike" aka "DRL" and "DoomRL", it's spiritual successor "Jupiter Hell", or the roguelike Doom mod "Doom Infinite".

  • @swozzlesticks3068
    @swozzlesticks3068 4 месяца назад +5

    4:16 is that genuinely how you pronounce nomenclature?

    • @henryohare732
      @henryohare732 Месяц назад +1

      I've always said no-men-clay-chure but I'm Scottish so idk if that changes things

    • @_thelegend2738
      @_thelegend2738 11 дней назад

      Im SO glad someone else caught that

  • @raid55
    @raid55 5 месяцев назад +80

    Carmack is the father of modern gaming. His work on the quake engine, that instead of selling he open sourced, inspired every modern engine to this day. There is still code from the quake engine in unity, source and even unreal engine to this very day. He redefined gaming so many times and never did it for profit, but for his prolific love of games and game development.

    • @GuckFoogle-pk6ns
      @GuckFoogle-pk6ns 3 месяца назад +16

      Even Call of Duty is based on the Quake engine. Ever wondered why you go a little faster when you're pressed up against a wall in CoD? Quake code.

    • @edsanville
      @edsanville Месяц назад +1

      Well, it wasn't open-source from the very beginning, and he's doing quite well financially, but you have a great point. He had a "higher calling" in a way.

  • @benvel3392
    @benvel3392 5 месяцев назад +349

    - *Ahoy shows up*
    - *States that Doom is a Action RPG*
    - *Leaves with an explanation*
    EDIT: edited due to popular demand

    • @juststatedtheobvious9633
      @juststatedtheobvious9633 5 месяцев назад +7

      Gauntlet is an RPG?
      A game with no permanent growth, and built on quarter munching sadism?
      What a waste of everyone's time.

    • @brotherbrother2137
      @brotherbrother2137 5 месяцев назад +58

      Ah I see that you watched the video

    • @Hush.Elementz
      @Hush.Elementz 5 месяцев назад +42

      Bruh there's a whole 13 minutes serving an explanation, you can't miss it

    • @jprice_
      @jprice_ 5 месяцев назад +8

      @@brotherbrother2137 He was talking about himself. He left without listening to the explanation.

    • @apocalypticpioneers2116
      @apocalypticpioneers2116 5 месяцев назад +11

      @@juststatedtheobvious9633 RPG didn't mean what it means now, it means ROLE playing game, not level up simulator. You're playing a ROLE.

  • @craig2196
    @craig2196 5 месяцев назад +13

    Ahoy's voice is getting more and more gritty with every upload, not a complaint, just an observation. Also the 90's inspired editing is top notch!

  • @nirmalsuki
    @nirmalsuki 5 месяцев назад +50

    I thought Shadowcaster was a game I made up in a dream back in the 90s, because I remember playing it at a friend's place (His was the only computer that would play it) and enjoying it thoroughly. I was not sure if that memory was real... Literally nobody I know had heard about it, let alone played it.

    • @jasonblalock4429
      @jasonblalock4429 4 месяца назад +1

      It's also one of the few Origin games from that era that, iirc, was never rereleased and isn't even on GOG.

    • @LocalSlasher
      @LocalSlasher 4 месяца назад

      ​@@jasonblalock4429Any idea why not?

  • @OhShiznitz1
    @OhShiznitz1 5 месяцев назад +44

    I think we're going through a similar situation right now with "souls-like" I wonder if the genre will gain a name of its own or will follow the path of Rogue.

    • @waywardscythe3358
      @waywardscythe3358 5 месяцев назад +13

      I think there's a fair chance "Soulslike" will stick with "soulsborne" being the broad term for Fromsoft games in that category. though who knows, maybe "soulsborne" will stick across the board like metroidvania did

    • @DanArnets1492
      @DanArnets1492 5 месяцев назад +6

      For me those are "brutal action RPGs"
      · They're really violent and hard
      · There's not much time to think when things are going down
      · There's plenty of role-playing as you can choose classes and such

    • @lukemccullough9279
      @lukemccullough9279 5 месяцев назад +5

      Soulslike is a confusing genre. The main innovation and characteristic present in all of the Sousborne-ring games is the introduction of multiplayer elements to what would be otherwise a singleplayer game, such as invasions and messages, however games like Noby Noby Boy and Death Stranding also feature these mechanics and are not referred to as soulslike. The other descriptor for Dark Souls is the merger of action RPG and Metroidvania. At what point to genres turn from game descriptor to marketing gimmick?

    • @egoalter1276
      @egoalter1276 5 месяцев назад +4

      Dark souls is definitely an ARPG, with heavy influence from action adventure games like Legend of Zelda, and Legacy of Kain.

    • @aliceyuri
      @aliceyuri 4 месяца назад +4

      given roguelike stuck and metroidvania stuck id put money on soulslike sticking too, especially since with soulslikes I feel like if you stray too much from the souls influence you've just made an action rpg

  • @jasonblalock4429
    @jasonblalock4429 4 месяца назад +4

    So then I suppose MIDI Maze / Faceball would be the first "pure" FPS without any RPG elements.
    That said, I've never been sold on the idea that Gauntlet is an RPG. It's more a fantasy-themed shmup in a maze. And there's precedent for that, Konami's Tutankham. But Gauntlet's complete lack of character-building - beyond putting in quarters to add food - is why I'd hesitate to call it an RPG. (And same for Doom.) If you say I'm "role-playing" as an Elf in Gauntlet, then you might as well also say I'm role-playing as a Vic Viper in Gradius. Hell, Gradius actually has more character-building than Gauntlet, through its upgrade system.
    So therefore, Gradius is also an RPG. 😁

  • @MrWertheron
    @MrWertheron 5 месяцев назад +156

    In France we called them 'Doom like' and it took longer for FPS to 'win' (and the fact it's not translated like STR for RTS is a good indicator of that).

    • @adynat0n
      @adynat0n 5 месяцев назад +31

      We should honor the origins of the genre and start calling them "Wolfendooms"

    • @ClokworkGremlin
      @ClokworkGremlin 5 месяцев назад +16

      @@adynat0n You're definitely going to get the furry community's attention with that one.

    • @HappyBeezerStudios
      @HappyBeezerStudios 5 месяцев назад +19

      @@adynat0n Ahh, that follows the idea of "Soulslikes", or rather "Soulsbornes"

    • @adynat0n
      @adynat0n 5 месяцев назад +6

      @@HappyBeezerStudios And Metroidvanias

    • @HappyBeezerStudios
      @HappyBeezerStudios 5 месяцев назад

      @@adynat0n oh right. Metroid and Symphony of the night.

  • @CarelessFoolFallsFlat
    @CarelessFoolFallsFlat 5 месяцев назад +39

    What I love about this conclusion is that the influence is seen not just in the mechanics, but also in the environments and the enemies themselves. It's practically painted all over the walls...at least, it is after Doomguy is finished making paste out of everybody.

    • @drjohnwooberg
      @drjohnwooberg 5 месяцев назад +4

      I don’t know if it’s a conscious choice or a limitation of those early 3D engines, but it’s interesting how all the early FPSs are essentially dungeon crawls with guns.

  • @catmage
    @catmage 4 месяца назад +3

    Action RPG that defined a genre, spawned clones, inspired developers, and became the main point of comparison for games no matter how loosely they resembled it? Was Doom the Dark Souls of the 90s?

    • @diogofelix8626
      @diogofelix8626 4 месяца назад +1

      Yes, Darks Souls was inspired by Demon Souls, that was inspired by King's Field, that was inspired by Ultima Underworld, that was inspired by Ultima, that was inspired by Akalabeth, that was inspired by Oubliette, that was inspired by DND (not to be mixed with dnd), Doom is the Dark Souls of 90's, same lineage.

    • @catmage
      @catmage 4 месяца назад

      @@diogofelix8626 not exactly what I meant, but that's an interesting factoid!

  • @jademonass2954
    @jademonass2954 5 месяцев назад +67

    i love seeing what people call a thing before it becomes truly coined
    like, before "conlang" was coined, people sometimes called them "fantasy languages", "planned lanuage" and "ideal language" to name a few
    i am exceptionally curious what the new name is going to be for the "souls like" genre, cuz i know we wont stick we that considering we have the ability to name it whatever we want

    • @ReverendTed
      @ReverendTed 5 месяцев назад +23

      At this stage, there are so many "Souls-likes" that the term may well stick around, similar to roguelike and rogue-lite.

    • @lucasLSD
      @lucasLSD 5 месяцев назад +13

      The roguelike term is older than millions of people playing games now, I don't think it can change without it becoming too descriptive.
      I also think soulslike will stick around because we don't have the Strife of dark souls yet, every game is still closely following fromsoft's formula.

    • @applehack97
      @applehack97 5 месяцев назад +9

      yeah, reminded me of the labeling of new music genres. Like, what did people call Black Sabbath before the term "heavy metal" was coined? Psychedelic rock? Hard rock? Overdriven-guitar-based technical blues?

    • @NigelXW
      @NigelXW 5 месяцев назад +5

      @@applehack97 To a lot of those bands that laid the foundation for metal, they would just say they're playing rock and roll

    • @kaitlyn__L
      @kaitlyn__L 5 месяцев назад +2

      @@applehack97 hard rock, dark rock, yeah. But generally just rock unless pushed to specify

  • @SuperDropsX
    @SuperDropsX 5 месяцев назад +48

    I would add to the Action RPG signs that, while the setting is futuristic, the enemies are demons, the domain of fantasy for the most part.
    I also would add that, in germany, when the genre emerged we called them "Ego-Shooters". I haven't followed german gaming press in over a decade, so it'd be interesting to see if/when that term died

    • @DanArnets1492
      @DanArnets1492 5 месяцев назад +10

      "Ego" just comes from the fact that it's on first-person, nothing else really

    • @n3rdy11
      @n3rdy11 4 месяца назад +5

      @@DanArnets1492 A fact that went over most German mainstream medias heads in the early 2000s when they were all in hysteria over "killer games".
      They claimed the "ego" in "ego shooter" stood for the egoistical power fantasy of killing other people, one that FPS games are allegedly teaching people.

    • @mrheisenberg83
      @mrheisenberg83 4 месяца назад

      @@n3rdy11 Remember when Doom and Mortal Kombat were seemingly public enemy nr. 1? The good old days of kids getting into serious trouble for making quake maps of their schools. The hysteria was real. And the BPJS were my mortal enemies.

  • @Klatchan
    @Klatchan 4 месяца назад +2

    This reminds me of how early Death Metal bands (including Death) were called Thrash because the term Death Metal didn't exist yet.

  • @madjackmadjack
    @madjackmadjack 5 месяцев назад +277

    What Doom is missing as an RPG is character skill abstracted away from player skill; you can't put more points into "don't miss with shotgun". Character skill as an abstraction is what makes a RPG; you can play as a skilled swordsman or wise wizard without having to know the difference between Ox Guard and Plow Guard or being able to recite the seven metals.

    • @danieladamczyk4024
      @danieladamczyk4024 5 месяцев назад +20

      Witcher.

    • @ReverendTed
      @ReverendTed 5 месяцев назад +47

      It's possible to do a very minimal amount of role-playing in Doom.
      You can "roleplay" as a Barbarian by deciding to go through it melee only, or as a pacifist by killing only when necessary, but yeah - you're absolutely correct from a modern understanding of the genres and the idea of character abstraction.

    • @danieladamczyk4024
      @danieladamczyk4024 5 месяцев назад +9

      @@ReverendTed Not all role plaing is based of what you want to do. Is about what you can do.

    • @celeron55
      @celeron55 5 месяцев назад +13

      So essentially, an FPS is a 3D action RPG without the character skills? I'm sure there are quite a few FPSes that just changed their genre to 3D action RPG...

    • @danieladamczyk4024
      @danieladamczyk4024 5 месяцев назад +3

      @@celeron55 Genre don't exists.

  • @TheAgentdp
    @TheAgentdp 5 месяцев назад +103

    I would dare say that this issue also plagues the Dark Souls trilogy. What defines Dark Souls, and what is a "Souls-like"? High difficulty with high rewards? Berserk inspired visuals? Dodge-rolling? Intricate story telling? Character creation?
    I know there are videos debunking this, but I still feel that the issue persists. It would seem that as games were compared to Doom as Doom-clones, so to shall other games be compared to a vastly more popular game that preceeded it in it's genre(s).

    • @danieladamczyk4024
      @danieladamczyk4024 5 месяцев назад +6

      Consequences, everything being part of the world and permament save. Yep, that's all.

    • @VanessaMagick
      @VanessaMagick 5 месяцев назад +12

      I like Yahtzee's term for it, which is a "recursive RPG"

    • @unfilthy
      @unfilthy 5 месяцев назад +3

      Ah, but are Souls-like really like Dark Souls, or are they really Souldborne-like?

    • @ThePageofCups
      @ThePageofCups 5 месяцев назад +8

      Soulslikes are pretty much uniformly defined by weighty combat with a stamina system, checkpoints you have to explicitly activate, monsters that can kill you as quickly as you can kill them, and typically very hostile location design with either traps or malicious (read: mean) enemy placement. Also very common is a general dour moodiness to the world that's either in its waning days, darkest days, or in days attempting to rebuild. Not always (Slay the Minotaur is weird) but common.

    • @Hexagonaldonut
      @Hexagonaldonut 5 месяцев назад +7

      @@ThePageofCups Also very common is losing all or most of a particular resource (that usually functions as money) whenever you die, which is how games like Hollow Knight get considered to be vaguely soulslike themselves. (The atmosphere also helps.)

  • @HydraKittten
    @HydraKittten 3 месяца назад +5

    Wolfenstein 3D invented the genre, Doom solidified it, the first person... something or another

  • @synchronos1
    @synchronos1 5 месяцев назад +340

    It’s actually interesting to analyse that if you consider the difference of gameplay in Doom 1993 and Doom 2016, it mostly boils down to added RPG elements.

    • @itzhexen0
      @itzhexen0 5 месяцев назад +17

      and made by completely different people.

    • @ikagura
      @ikagura 5 месяцев назад +43

      And closer to Quake gameplay.

    • @itzhexen0
      @itzhexen0 5 месяцев назад +27

      Also the original doom is darker and not rip and tear I'm a bad ass. You actually get your ass kicked in it. Even though you guys have turned it into that.

    • @mothertrucker341
      @mothertrucker341 5 месяцев назад

      ​@@itzhexen0and I thought I needed to get laid

    • @doodguytheblank2403
      @doodguytheblank2403 5 месяцев назад +70

      @@itzhexen0sounds like a skill issue

  • @TheUnaturalSelection
    @TheUnaturalSelection 5 месяцев назад +52

    So good to see you back and with doom content. So good.

  • @iwantagoodnameplease
    @iwantagoodnameplease 4 месяца назад +3

    I've always joked about how everything is a role-playing game, and used Half-Life as a good example. And now it turns out, thanks to this video, that I have a source I can reference to say "see, Half-Life is an RPG!"

  • @jd3666
    @jd3666 5 месяцев назад +79

    It's just like Die Hard. It's a Christmas story about a man trying to get back with his ex wife.

    • @nuberiffic
      @nuberiffic 5 месяцев назад +4

      It's not a Christmas story, it just happens at Christmas

    • @RyuakiraX
      @RyuakiraX 5 месяцев назад +25

      Die Hard is a Metroidvania. A man unlocks more parts of the tower by gathering more powerful weaponrym

    • @S4BRETOOTH
      @S4BRETOOTH 5 месяцев назад +8

      @@RyuakiraX But is a metroivania with a Xmas setting!
      Christmasvania.

    • @Henners
      @Henners 5 месяцев назад +10

      @@nuberifficthe set up for die hard can’t happen without the Christmas party and coming to CA from NY for the holidays. Plus the large amount of Christmas music, and they say Christmas more than home alone. If die hard just takes place during Christmas than the same applies to home alone

    • @Cadmann778
      @Cadmann778 5 месяцев назад +2

      If you boil it down to the essentials it's a hallmark movie

  • @TalkingVidya
    @TalkingVidya 5 месяцев назад +39

    Doom: a game that would become it's own genre

    • @Eric_Pham
      @Eric_Pham 5 месяцев назад +2

      Dude, i was thinking and commented the same thing!

    • @malikfaisal416
      @malikfaisal416 4 месяца назад

      Souls-like

    • @vinnie245
      @vinnie245 4 месяца назад

      Whats Doom? Its Doom.

  • @SATO_FD2R
    @SATO_FD2R 4 месяца назад +6

    Glad to see Ahoy not taking a billion year hiatus again, I can’t handle the wait

  • @ReverendTed
    @ReverendTed 5 месяцев назад +64

    I am immediately reminded of a single panel from Penny Arcade's June 11th, 2001 comic (which capped a series of 4 strips starting June 4th, decrying the state of gaming at the time).
    "This is more of a mid-to-late 80s platformer, with... Yes, I believe there's a hint of sim."
    "Yes, sim. Quite right. Garcon! More genres!"

    • @f.o.c4039
      @f.o.c4039 5 месяцев назад +3

      "Garcon means boy"

  • @FolfHavoc
    @FolfHavoc 5 месяцев назад +201

    I've heard some call old FPS games are called Boomer Shooters, but I like calling them Wolfendooms, similar to the genre "Metroidvania" (I dunno, it sounds cool to me)

    • @Prikense
      @Prikense 5 месяцев назад +50

      Boomer shooters should be called quakers by that logic, as they have more in common with quake (fast move speed, quirky physics, movement tech, etc) than doom

    • @davidemelia6296
      @davidemelia6296 5 месяцев назад +42

      Boomer shooter is an utterly dumb name. Carmack, Romero et al were not boomers, and neither were nearly all of the people playing them, even back then.

    • @gibberishdump1610
      @gibberishdump1610 5 месяцев назад +41

      ​@@davidemelia6296nowadays, boomer is used as a term describing anyone of age so the name stuck

    • @dougcarey2233
      @dougcarey2233 5 месяцев назад +5

      Can I interest anyone in a Xooter?

    • @rearlafull2870
      @rearlafull2870 5 месяцев назад

      @@gibberishdump1610 they are not in a baby boom, most won't even have families, dumb ironic name

  • @FLYNN_TAGGART
    @FLYNN_TAGGART 4 месяца назад +5

    Per the DOOM (SNES) Manual, Page 07:
    "The game play for DOOM™ is quite simple. This is not a cumbersome role-playing game, but an action-oriented slugathon! Also, you don't need super-human reflexes to win - using your wits is IMPORTANT. To escape DOOM™, you need both brains AND the killer instinct."

    • @DeadPixel1105
      @DeadPixel1105 3 месяца назад

      That's in the original PC manual as well.

  • @igormoreno3464
    @igormoreno3464 5 месяцев назад +101

    Well, the id Software gang were indeed playing a lot of DnD while developing Doom, and even the inspiration of the Cacodemons came from the cover of a DnD book... :D

    • @Big-Wumpus
      @Big-Wumpus 5 месяцев назад +17

      Also the premis of doom having demons invade earth from hell comes from on of IDs dnd campaigns

    • @penelopermolai
      @penelopermolai 5 месяцев назад +1

      ooooh yeah. 3rd edition of Spelljammer right?

    • @wallyhackenslacker
      @wallyhackenslacker 5 месяцев назад +10

      The original idea for Quake was pretty much turning their DnD campaign into a videogame IIRC, before crunch forced them to turn Quake into what it is.

    • @Smurfman256
      @Smurfman256 5 месяцев назад +1

      The source code reads a lot like how DnD battles are played out.

  • @KirbandtheOatmeals
    @KirbandtheOatmeals 5 месяцев назад +9

    Doom is clearly one of the games ever made.

  • @ForumArcade
    @ForumArcade 4 месяца назад +33

    All genre classifications are inherently imperfect, but I think rather than dividing shooting games into first-person and third-person, a more useful standard is the nature of the gameplay mechanics and narrative.
    Doom is predominantly an Action Shooter. Mass Effect is a Roleplaying Shooter. You can have Stealth Shooters, Adventure Shooters, Casual, Puzzle, and so forth.
    A game like Deus Ex would fit well into multiple categories.

    • @SynRequiem
      @SynRequiem 4 месяца назад +1

      There’s also an overlap with “immersive sims” with games in the lineage like Dishonored, BioShock, Deus Ex, etc.

    • @DoomRater
      @DoomRater 4 месяца назад +3

      What's really interesting is the lack of description of Doom as a horror shooter. While very fast paced once you start always running, there is a consistent theme of hell, demons, and dread. The skill ceiling was unknown at the time, and speedrun history will show that

    • @hiramesensei3112
      @hiramesensei3112 4 месяца назад

      in reality it doesnt matter at all and arguing about it is pointless because the only reason the classifications exist is to give people some guidance on whether its a type of game that would appeal to them

    • @SmallSpoonBrigade
      @SmallSpoonBrigade 4 месяца назад +1

      I'd probably go with something along the lines of "corridor shooter" as opposed to "arena shooter" because you're not locked into rooms with tons of monsters with relatively few in between. There are definitely rooms with a large number of enemies, but you're not typically locked in with them the way you would with a arena shooter.

    • @DoomRater
      @DoomRater 4 месяца назад

      @@SmallSpoonBrigade That, and corridor shooter is more along the lines of how Gauntlet plays as well. Though Doom's faster paced, more like an arena shooter like Smash TV. Or well, it could be if it bothered to force players to deal with small hordes instead of letting them retreat everywhere.
      Yeah the only real flaw is calling Gauntlet an RPG. You don't deal with stat management in any western sense and your only role play in that game is who you pick at the start. There's no meaningful character or stat progression. What's funny is there IS such a progression in Doom- in the weapons you pick up along the way.

  • @trollman1296
    @trollman1296 5 месяцев назад +142

    I don't know, naming the genre the game itself created sounds paradoxical

    • @ikagura
      @ikagura 5 месяцев назад +39

      Like with Dark Souls and GTA.

    • @feryth
      @feryth 5 месяцев назад +19

      Oh, what do you mean, *roguelikes*? How boring!

    • @shrouddreamer
      @shrouddreamer 5 месяцев назад +28

      - "What genre is Doom?"
      - "The genre is Doom, obviously!"
      - "But didn't you just make up Doom?"
      - "Yes."
      - "So how do we know what genre it is?"
      - "The genre is Doom, obviously!"
      - "But didn't you just make up Doom?"
      ...

    • @pnutz_2
      @pnutz_2 5 месяцев назад +3

      @@ikagura and total war

    • @electricsabbath996
      @electricsabbath996 5 месяцев назад +12

      Sound reasonable to me. I mean Doom is Doom, you don't need a genre to label tetris or pong.

  • @purplehaze2358
    @purplehaze2358 5 месяцев назад +150

    "Computer Gaming World described it as an action game with a first-person 3d environment."
    So basically, just a roundabout way of saying "first person shooter" before we had that name for it.

    • @retroforager
      @retroforager 5 месяцев назад +27

      yeah i like how in all the examples cited, it's clear we were always pointed in the direction of the name "fps" and just slowly got nudged into it over time.

    • @JustKrin
      @JustKrin 5 месяцев назад +3

      I like the evolution of "3d first person perspective shoot em up" into "first person shooter/fps". We know it's 3d, we know what it means with being in first person, and we know that we have to shoot things

    • @TheJacklikesvideos
      @TheJacklikesvideos 5 месяцев назад +1

      only in a reality where action is synonymous with firearms.

    • @kylegonewild
      @kylegonewild 4 месяца назад

      @@TheJacklikesvideos Squares are still rectangles. Shooting is still action.

  • @D-Arora
    @D-Arora 5 месяцев назад +7

    To the people getting salty: it's almost like all forms of categorisation are made up and bleed into each other when you look at the evolutionary phases.

    • @D-Arora
      @D-Arora 5 месяцев назад +6

      At the end of the day, we're all just fish that call ourselves human

  • @natayaway
    @natayaway 5 месяцев назад +12

    triangle square circle upsidedown triangle is such a clever abstraction of AHOY

  • @JamesR624
    @JamesR624 5 месяцев назад +38

    Kinda reminds me of how in the 2000's, every keyboard phone was a "Sidekick" and every smartphone was a "Blackberry Clone", and in the late 2000's to early 2010's, every all-touchscreen smartphone was an "iPhone clone", and every tablet was an "iPad".

    • @cattysplat
      @cattysplat 5 месяцев назад +7

      Laptop was a "portable computer". Talking to people online was for "weirdos." You didn't browse or search the internet, you surfed.

    • @pokehybridtrainer
      @pokehybridtrainer 5 месяцев назад

      This Unihertz Titan and older Key 2 pales to the functionality of the Sidekick. I still miss it and these keyboard phones are great for IT work to not lug a laptop around.

    • @armorhide406
      @armorhide406 5 месяцев назад +4

      Didn't help seemingly every parent said you were playing Mario on your Nintendo... Even if you were on an XBOX 360 playing Halo

    • @goat-eyes
      @goat-eyes 5 месяцев назад +1

      ​@@armorhide406You poor thing. How ever did you survive such neglect?

    • @TheJacklikesvideos
      @TheJacklikesvideos 5 месяцев назад

      reminds me of at the time how people called the thing after the brand

  • @CCNeverender
    @CCNeverender 4 месяца назад +5

    Just wanted to take a second to recognize the effort you put into the visual style of this episode with the very 90's styled backgrounds and stickers and whatnot. Love seeing creators mix it up and get creative with the window-dressing :)

  • @caramelice63
    @caramelice63 5 месяцев назад +7

    This video is kinda pointless becasue everyone knows it's the MF genre!

  • @codeinefrosty88
    @codeinefrosty88 5 месяцев назад +7

    DOOM is it. And it can run DOOM.

  • @ZeroUm_
    @ZeroUm_ 5 месяцев назад +2

    Souls-like / Soulsborne games have the very same problem, and "third-person action RPG" isn't super descriptive.

  • @MathewWithOne_T
    @MathewWithOne_T 5 месяцев назад +47

    I think no matter what conclusion you come to, the DOOM modding community will be able to prove you wrong

    • @fus132
      @fus132 5 месяцев назад +2

      Action RPG,
      Just like Skyrim.😏

    • @DinnerForkTongue
      @DinnerForkTongue 5 месяцев назад +10

      Now there's even plans for Doom to be isometric. No, I'm not joking, there's a camera hack for GZDoom that does that.

    • @Sekir80
      @Sekir80 5 месяцев назад

      @@DinnerForkTongue Isometric?! Whta the cluster*uck? :D

    • @wallyhackenslacker
      @wallyhackenslacker 5 месяцев назад +6

      @@DinnerForkTongue And there are things like Doom RL wich is literally Doom as a roguelike, and there is a gzdoom mod that brings DRL gameplay back into OG Doom. It's a Doom modception!

  • @duffman18
    @duffman18 5 месяцев назад +83

    You should be earning millions making Hollywood documentaries. No hyperbole. You're fucking amazing mate.

    • @SuperM789
      @SuperM789 5 месяцев назад +2

      Please know what you’re saying…

    • @cattysplat
      @cattysplat 5 месяцев назад +5

      Except real documentaries are taken up mostly by talking head interviews with progressing "revelations and reactions" as well as the documenter talking in person about their opinion. A lot more fluff for entertainment purposes. Ahoy is far more streamlined and artistically stylised.

    • @ghoulbuster1
      @ghoulbuster1 5 месяцев назад +4

      ewww hollywood
      huge downgrade

    • @mihirx27
      @mihirx27 5 месяцев назад

      ​@@cattysplatYou're looking at real cash-grab documentaries.
      I'm talking moreso "love letter" documentaries like the ones NoClip make about video games, or bigger Video Essays like Liam Triforce makes, or heck, I remember this one that Redbull made very recently for CS:GO. I LOVE those kinds of interviews where u just let the subject of the interview build the narrative for you.

    • @tom_123
      @tom_123 5 месяцев назад

      “Hollywood documentaries” ?!

  • @arturbb
    @arturbb 4 месяца назад +3

    Surprisingly, I've actually always thought that, but instead of RPG I'd use the term Dungeon-Crawler, since I think that's a more appropriate genre that applies to the games you label as RPGs in the video, and was also a very common label that was used at the time. Doom definitely shares a LOT of DNA with those games, so I do think a more "academically correct" way of referring to Doom genre-wise in 1993 would've been "Action Dungeon-Crawler".

  • @penguincamp
    @penguincamp 5 месяцев назад +15

    I am so overjoyed that you included the bibliography in the video description!!!

  • @lev7509
    @lev7509 5 месяцев назад +8

    At 5:35 one can see what TF2 was initially sketched to be before being completely redesigned to what we know and love it as, a nice glimpse into history and a reminder how creative genius often comes during the process.

  • @beezar113
    @beezar113 3 месяца назад +2

    I feel an RPG requires player stat based progression to actually count as an RPG. However, “role-playing game” is such a non-specific term and you can basically call any game a “role-playing game.” However, I have never seen any stat-based progression game not get called an RPG, and any game without it usually just gets labelled an adventure series (ex: the Zelda games)

    • @BBP-OMO
      @BBP-OMO 7 дней назад

      Well strictly speaking stat progression and equipment are present in and would make Minecraft an RPG.

  • @Dsand23
    @Dsand23 5 месяцев назад +26

    It's very nice to see the pivot towards a steady(ish) stream of starter content in addition to the masterfully produced documentaries I pay for. Thanks for amazing content, as always!

    • @minecraftsteve2504
      @minecraftsteve2504 5 месяцев назад

      Documentaries you pay for? Does he have more documentaries locked behind a pay wall somewhere?

    • @doomguy19931
      @doomguy19931 5 месяцев назад +6

      ​@@minecraftsteve2504 he might be a Patreon supporter

    • @Dsand23
      @Dsand23 5 месяцев назад +2

      @@minecraftsteve2504 No, but Patrons get videos ~ 3 days earlier

    • @chownful
      @chownful 5 месяцев назад

      How much do you pay? Would you consider yourself a pay pig?

  • @my4trackmachine
    @my4trackmachine 5 месяцев назад +13

    I love the angle of this video. Understanding the evolving general consensus of the time and the failed or forgotten ones really paints a picture of where things were at. This is an excellent way to convey history and the feeling of living through it. I don't think things are covered in this way nearly enough. Brilliant work.

    • @ValkyrieTiara
      @ValkyrieTiara 4 месяца назад +2

      Check out Jeremy Parish's channel for about 10 years worth of content of looking at games in the context of their own time. He focuses mostly on 80s consoles, but in his search to "understand" the NES and Game Boy he has gone through many other more obscure (mostly Japanese) consoles over the years. If you're interested in game history that focuses on understanding games from a consumer perspective, he can't be beat.

    • @my4trackmachine
      @my4trackmachine 4 месяца назад

      @@ValkyrieTiara Thanks for the tip! I’ll check it out.

  • @TheA1ternative
    @TheA1ternative 5 месяцев назад +3

    Good to hear we stopped using “Doom Clone” to describe every game with a first person perspective and a gun! Now we can call it better things, such as a “souls-like”. /s

  • @DrakoWulf
    @DrakoWulf 5 месяцев назад +12

    Ahoy is a blessing every time he posts. Only LEMMiNO gets me more excited for documentary-style content, and that's a high bar.

    • @purebaldness
      @purebaldness 5 месяцев назад

      Throw in David Firth and you have my 3 favourite YT channels 👌

    • @DrakoWulf
      @DrakoWulf 5 месяцев назад

      @@purebaldness
      I've not heard of them. What's their style of content?

    • @purebaldness
      @purebaldness 5 месяцев назад +2

      @@DrakoWulf It's the creator of 'Salad Fingers' and many, many other works. It's an animation channel and not documentaries, to be fair.

    • @DrakoWulf
      @DrakoWulf 5 месяцев назад +2

      @@purebaldness
      Ah, a Newgrounds classic.

    • @purebaldness
      @purebaldness 5 месяцев назад +2

      @@DrakoWulf LEMMiNO uploads a video one day after Ahoy lol

  • @randomridiculousness2290
    @randomridiculousness2290 5 месяцев назад +5

    Everyone knows its the MF genre? C'mon Ahoy do better

  • @Depressbian
    @Depressbian 4 месяца назад +2

    In the same way that FPS replaced the term 'Doomclone', I'm very interested to see if there's ever a replacement for the term ''Soulslike.

    • @stravvman
      @stravvman 4 месяца назад +1

      There is still no replacement for the term Roguelike after the decades of Rogue clones

  • @yahoosashimi
    @yahoosashimi 5 месяцев назад +43

    Seeing Doom as an action RPG makes me rethink the gameplay experience of it. Always love how thought-provoking your videos are.

    • @akeem2983
      @akeem2983 5 месяцев назад

      Doom is a dungeon crawler

  • @WJ0476
    @WJ0476 5 месяцев назад +64

    RETURN OF THE KING

    • @corryjamieson3909
      @corryjamieson3909 5 месяцев назад +3

      Hail to the king baby.

    • @ikagura
      @ikagura 5 месяцев назад +1

      3 days ago?

    • @leaky4230
      @leaky4230 5 месяцев назад

      @@ikagurayou mean months?

    • @Ze_eT
      @Ze_eT 5 месяцев назад +1

      @@leaky4230 WJ is referring to the comment being 3 days old when the video came out 20 minutes ago.

    • @dashthatonedude
      @dashthatonedude 5 месяцев назад

      @@ikagura Must be members' perks

  • @ajohnson2706
    @ajohnson2706 5 месяцев назад +3

    Surprise appearance by Charlie Brooker at 5:23, always forget he used to be a games journalist.

  • @overlordalfredo
    @overlordalfredo 5 месяцев назад +4

    3:10 it is similar to the "Reploid Dilemma": Is MegaMan X a Reploid if every reploid was modeled after his schematics?

    • @LaggyBlazko
      @LaggyBlazko 5 месяцев назад +2

      And then we have Zero on the side who I would call a Robot Master.

  • @user-kh7zf
    @user-kh7zf 5 месяцев назад +16

    With automapping, health drops, a variety of weapons, armours, powers and an emphasis on exploration, you might even consider Doom as a Metroidvania?

    • @Wielblad95
      @Wielblad95 5 месяцев назад +2

      But then what genre was a Metroid? (yes, it was a 2D platformer game, but it may cause similar discussion as Doom. Same with Rogue and Rogue-likes. Same with Dark Souls. And prolly many more.)

    • @EuryBartleby
      @EuryBartleby 5 месяцев назад +4

      I was gonna write that Doom lacks powerups that aid traversal...but rad suit is a thing. Doom is a Metroidvania.

    • @genyakozlov1316
      @genyakozlov1316 4 месяца назад

      It's separated into levels rather than being a single big world. Now Metal Gear 1-2 and Solid 1-3, those are Metroidvanias.

  • @RussellB
    @RussellB 5 месяцев назад +1

    at 7:28 I really hoped you would show footage of the Lynx version of Gauntlet which has a FPS style viewport in the lower left. Poor Lynx, remembered by few.

  • @drez4726
    @drez4726 5 месяцев назад +4

    Boomer Shooter minus the Boomers 💥

  • @Mace2.0
    @Mace2.0 5 месяцев назад +11

    Ahoy, matey!

  • @DeadPixel1105
    @DeadPixel1105 3 месяца назад +1

    Based on videos I've seen about the development and inspirations for Doom, I'd say that classic Doom is a 'dungeon crawler' (like Diablo or Gauntlet), but with a first-person POV rather than isometric third-person POV.
    Edit: Ah, I see that is actually mentioned later on in this video. Nice.

  • @adorimable9690
    @adorimable9690 5 месяцев назад +7

    Aw man didn't mention Chex Quest, the Chex Cereal Doom Clone

    • @Chaosrain112
      @Chaosrain112 5 месяцев назад +2

      I was actually kinda surprised Chex Quest didn't get any mention, shit was fun for a .wad file you literally got out of a cereal box for free.

    • @TheJacklikesvideos
      @TheJacklikesvideos 5 месяцев назад

      also no Super 3D Noah's Ark

    • @ExeloMinish
      @ExeloMinish 5 месяцев назад +1

      That's not a clone so much as it is straight-up a mod
      Chex Quest isn't a Doom clone, it's just Doom

  • @KandiKid87
    @KandiKid87 5 месяцев назад +17

    Immediately connected my bluetooth for this one. So good to see ya again, Ahoy!

  • @JoTheVeteran
    @JoTheVeteran 4 месяца назад +1

    To be honest, when game journalists at the time would call a game, a doom clone, they were referring to the engine. This trend died after IDs quake 3D engine, and of course epic mega games unreal engine.
    If you used this same naming scene today, there are a TON of unity games, and many will look like the first unity game of that genre, so they are clones of that game.
    But game journalists today don't care reporting games, so they don't do that. They will mostly focus on the toxic gaming community that forced poor old billion dollar company Sony to back the fck up with the PSN account in your PC game. Those re the subjects that attract their attention, not good or bad games. Modern gaming journalists don't even play games, and probably never had.

  • @Supermunch2000
    @Supermunch2000 5 месяцев назад +8

    What a power move! "I will be taking no questions" and leaves the comments enabled.

  • @40-forty-plus
    @40-forty-plus 5 месяцев назад +11

    Today turned out to be a good day. AHOY posted.

  • @AntonyCannon
    @AntonyCannon 4 месяца назад +2

    4:34 Ironically, it seems that John Romero left id software feeling that Quake indeed being a doom clone was the true disrespect.

  • @kellerkind6169
    @kellerkind6169 5 месяцев назад +5

    The first actual FPS (at least the first I know of) is Midi Maze, released in 1987 on the Atari ST and later ported to other platforms under a different name (Powerball 2000)

    • @abcpea
      @abcpea 5 месяцев назад

      Oh, I think I played an online clone of that in the early 2000s.

    • @KeenRetroGames
      @KeenRetroGames 5 месяцев назад +3

      Faceball. Powerball is a lottery game.

  • @madjackmadjack
    @madjackmadjack 5 месяцев назад +6

    I've made the argument for years that both Doom 1 and Diablo 1 both have a foot in the "survival horror" genre; compared to what would come later in the genres they both created they're relatively slow, anxious, with an emphasis on choosing your fights carefully. Later games would go on to be faster and flashier, but they lost some of these survival horror elements, and whereas games like Resident Evil would evoke a lot of Doom1's first episode, there really aren't many games that evoke the survival horror elements of Diablo 1.

    • @hi-i-am-atan
      @hi-i-am-atan 5 месяцев назад +2

      it's interesting because you're certainly onto something, but doom isn't really _slow_ and is in fact a lot faster than many of its ilk to come after. but it is very much _heavy,_ with doomguy taking notably long to move from a standstill and stop from a sprint. combine that with how commonly it was played with a keyboard at the time and you end up with something very different than the clumsy tank controls common to early survival horror games yet something still very similar when it comes to the _vibes._ you're certainly playing a far more capable combatant in doom, but if you don't utilize your powerful tools effectively and proactively, a crowd of imps can quickly become an overwhelming force as their fireballs incinerate you from every angle
      y'know, the things that are the least threatening chaff of them all, once you get a handle on doom's movement? yeah, the disparity between how slow doom can feel at first vs. how blazing quick it actually is runs through pretty much the entire game. from what i recall, doom 2016 does actually capture the dark, gruesome atmosphere of the og games p. well, but it's harder to really _feel_ it because it's ... harder. you can't cautiously trudge your way through its combat as that'll just get you killed before you're even out of the first level, so you're forced to confront how much power you actually have at your disposal and utilize it judiciously. thus, a lot of the self-inflicted helplessness just gets forcibly filtered out, which majorly inhibits the horror of the setting from rooting itself in
      it's actually a similar story for the og doom once you start mining away at the mountain that is its community content. there's a _lot_ of great mapsets that not only retain doom's dark atmosphere, but take it even further through even greater use of the engines' tools ... and the best usually completely lose the horror of that atmosphere, not through any major flaw but because they're made by veteran players for veteran players and will absolutely break your over their knee if you try to play them like a scared little kid exploring the shareware episodes back in 1993. it's not like they even do anything overt with doomguy's badass-ness like 2016 and especially eternal do, it's just that _you yourself_ have to be so effective at putting down hordes of demons that no definition of "helpless" will ever suit you
      thinking about it, the entire reason for doom having schrodinger's tone really does just come down to the existence of the run button, funnily enough

  • @curtsuplex6855
    @curtsuplex6855 5 месяцев назад +2

    5:27 = Charlie Brooker! Used to be on the PC Gamer Editing team.

  • @BodhiAnderson
    @BodhiAnderson 5 месяцев назад +6

    Just remember all caps when you spell the game's name

    • @bbuny10
      @bbuny10 4 месяца назад

      I see what you did there

  • @xthegrim
    @xthegrim 5 месяцев назад +6

    Loved this, always happy to see quality talk about the first Doom

  • @rakseiify
    @rakseiify 4 месяца назад +3

    0:33 the shot pierced through the zombie hitting the barrel behind it, which exploded gibbing the other zombie beside the barrel in a very satisfying manner... that's some of Doom's magic

  • @Rob_Enhoud
    @Rob_Enhoud 5 месяцев назад +9

    I think there is an argument for it being a Horror game too. Back in the mid nineties, the horror genre wasn't really established in video games. Not even games based on horror films (Friday the 13th, Halloween, Castlevania) were classified as such. It wouldn't be until a few Resident Evil games were made where the genre was established in gaming. It's also interesting that games like Castlevania and Doom are still not classified as Horror, it's as if the genera in video games is pigeonholed into survival gameplay, and if the gameplay is more action oriented it's as if it categorically can't be a Horror game.
    I say Castlevania should be an Action Horror game, Doom is a First Person Horror game, and Resident Evil is the established Survival Horror game.

    • @ikagura
      @ikagura 5 месяцев назад +7

      Then Dino Crisis was itself called a "Survival Panic" game.

    • @CowCommando
      @CowCommando 5 месяцев назад +6

      I wouldn't say Doom is a horror game. Most of the time horror is achieved by disempowering the player/protagonist. Doom is very much about being empowered to fight supernatural enemies and a lot of them. That said, Doom definitely includes horror elements.

    • @genyakozlov1316
      @genyakozlov1316 4 месяца назад

      ​@@CowCommandoIs Resident Evil 4 a horror game then?

    • @CowCommando
      @CowCommando 4 месяца назад

      @@genyakozlov1316 I dunno. Never played it. If I had to generalize, I'd say this. A classical horror game is likely to play out similarly to a classic horror movie. The protagonist is trying to escape or evade the horror for the duration because it cannot be overcome by conventional means. Only at the climax do we see the horror truly defeated if at all, and only then because over the course of the experience something has changed to make victory possible.