I remember one of the people in Marvel Studios tasked in getting the writers and directors, etc, stated that they specifically will not choose and hire any Marvel and comicbook fans. Which is such a weird way of thinking to say the least.
@@marwynthemasterful6369 He didn't watch the show because they were filming it as he was writing Doctor Strange 2. Lizzy said herself that right after Wandavision, she had to start filming Doctor Strange 2, which meant the script was already written before the show even went in post.
@@marwynthemasterful6369the ending of WandaVision directly leads into the next scene where Wanda appears. She locks Agatha back in a hex and reads the Darkhold despite her warnings lmfao
I think it's sad that Marvel and the MCU has got into such a state that I'd rather spend time watching the entire spoiler review than engaging with the series itself. You've saved me a few hours time investment into Echo. Thanks Grace.
My gut feeling is that the creative team isn't being held to the necessary standards of quality. Not just in this show, but more broadly in the MCU. Creatives are making choices that clearly don't work, but where's the push back?
You need people like Benson & Moorhead who inherently understand good writing and storytelling, and know how to extract great performances and present it with style.
I actually feel the opposite. It feels more like Marvel not trusting the creative teams they hire and then too much interference hinders the final product. They're doing a Rise of Skywalker and overcorrecting everything when they should be more trusting and collaborative rather than random hires and then too much restriction.
@sarcasmxkate to be fair they have been doing things like that since phase one, it's just Endgame was such an accomplishment that people expect everything they make from now on to be on that level, the MCU has always been a roller coaster ride of quality and creativity it's just more noticeable now because instead of having about 20 projects in 10 years, they pushed out about 20 projects in a little more than 2 years
Why do they need Iron Man AND War Machine?? Why do they need Steve AND Bucky?? Why do they need Doctor Strange AND Wong?? Why do they need Spider-Man AND Miles AND Gwen AND etc..?? Why do they need Ant-Man AND The Wasp?? Why do they ALL need a villain that mirrors their powers exactly?? Oh no we can't have two Indigenous superheroes at the same time that slightly resemble each other in a minor way. "Why can't Kohhori just be her ancestor??" They're from two totally different tribes. Did you really just see two Indigenous women and think they are the same? How many hero's origins are just "my parents/uncle died and now I'm a hero?" Why is multiple things being similar suddenly an issue?
I mean you could explain it like that, but she saw him last 20 years ago when she was like 8. And it wasn't established that she tinkered on the side as a hobby.
I felt a lot things didn't work like the ancestors and Echo's overall arc. What worked were the John Wick style action scenes, Kingpin, and the beautiful quiet, almost slice of life atmosphere of a small rural town.
Secret invasion was absolutely horrible! You really could not make that show any worse if you tried. I really want to know how Secret Invasion was such a huge fail. Who’s fault was it?
They didn't have a showrunner for a long time and then just plopped it on whoever was willing (they never read the original run) so it was a perfect storm. They made the show off of producer's notes like "start the skrull war, set up Dorrek 8" but that's it. Didn't ever see the iconic imagery like Elektra Skrull laying on a table
@@spinningbackkick6021Two women with no combat training, one of them geriatric, suddenly beating up professional hired killers with badass moves because magical native powers, plus Maya suddenly going "let me heal your childhood trauma and let you go" on the man who had her father killed, had groomed her to become a murderer, and almost killed the rest of her family out of wounded pride because she still/again loved her abuser like an uncle... Yes, totally deep.
To answer your question regarding connecting the two characters: Maya is Choctaw, while the other is Mohawk; would you do this with, say, an Italian and Irish character?
I don't see this as an issue in pre production. Of course now it's too late as they are different tribes, but Kahhori is a fully original character that didn't exist before the what if episodes. If the respective show runners would have compared notes at the production phase, they would have seen, that they work in similar projects and could have connected them. I mean the actress who plays Bonnie is the voice actress of Kahhori, so it's even more baffling they didn't think of combining the bloodlines
I really appreciate the MCU making a statement about how Native Americans have many different tribes. They don't all need to be lumped up as a single identity for the sake of the audiences ignorance. They are many peoples and have many different stories. I love Grace but she does argue for ethnic backgrounds to be recognized in other circumstances. This is no different than that. Just because they're both Native Superheroes does NOT mean they need to be the same.
@SCTVTulsa I love showing different tribes. Story wise, I feel it would have made sense to connect them because their power looks so similar. It would've been a great Easter egg for those who watched both shows. And maybe even entice some people to go back and watch the show if they missed it.
yes, and it's actually done all the time, religion practices in particular are always all over the place, and usually very much chosen ad hoc to fit the narative, the same thing with a lot of other customs, the witcher completly ignored it's polish roots for example. Amazon primes rings of power completely ignored the fact the creator gave specific etchnicities to different groups. Disney is constantly ignoring it's own storylines, Snow White being the current example where the original story was made by white europeans with very specific skin complexion and Disney just changed it to whatever it wanted.
4:54 Echos costume in the comics is both modern and a touch of her native American roots. The problem with the mcu suit is that they changed echos native American tribe in favor of other. Removing the iconic feather look which belonged to another tribe.
@@Cuzane True and the powers does not align with who echo is and I'm curious on how adding the supernatural powers will help echo as a street level hero with no supernatural enemies.
I agree: “Kahhori is a lead. Echo is a supporting character.” I like Kahhori more, but I do really like Maya as well. They just need to give her more to do. And Episode 4 was my favorite of this series. Chula, Maya’s grandmother, was my favorite character.
Kahhori is Mohawk and Echo is Choctaw, so no they should not be related, by that logic let's make sure every white character in the MCU is related, even though they come from different regions and cultures, and lets make every latino character Mexican because god forbid the minorities have different backgrounds
Thank you so much for saying this. People are being very ignorant with this take just because they’re both Native American. It shows me that they’re watching these shows but are not actually paying attention.
I would have connected them in pre production already and make them both originally from the same tribe for the synergy. But now it's too late because the district tribes are established. And that's what what Grace meant as well, when she said to have them from the same tribe. But I'm also fine with presenting different tribes.
Making Kahhori related to Echo makes no sense when they’re not even from the same universe nor the same tribe. Two Indigenous characters don’t need to be related to each other.
There are major flaws in your argument about why did they introduce Echo and Kahori around similar times? First you’re coming from the perspective of there’s only one Native American culture which there is not. Also, the vast majority people aren’t watching. What if let’s be honest, more people watch Echo.
I completely agree with you Grace in this review. Echo was a very cool and stablish character in the comics, a badass, this seems like two different stories mesh together, and I don't see the need to change her this drastically, not all the characters in the MCU need mystic or glowing powers, Daredevil is an amazing example where subtlety with the extra abilities make a very human an compelling character.
I feel like people have rose-colored glasses when it comes to Daredevil. Daredevil had the same amount of mysticism as Echo did, and expanding further to that corner of Netflix MCU, Luke having impenetrable skin, Jessica's portayal of super-strength, and Iron-Fists glowing powers, it's all the same as Echo. Echo was great, just like Daredevil was.
Echo is a side character she never caught on. Its so weird people are pretending like she was this widely amazing character when in 2010 post bendis daredevil and new avengets no one knew she existed
Of course it seems like two stories meshed together, the whole theme of her story is two stories creating disharmony in her own life! Like, wow, I can't believe good writing is wasted on y'all
@@nailinthefashion I understand the premise, but I really don't consider that was good writing, but this is subjective, if you like it that's ok, the thing is I like a lot the Character of Echo in the comics, and changing it so drastically is what bothered me, and Grace touched exactly the points of why, so I happened to agree with her on this one.
@@dmp1571 yeah but those characters had those backstories already in the comics, at least the mystic ones, that was the context of them with Echo her context was different from this, at least with what the showrunners added because they thought her powers were lame, and for me the character was great already, and most of the critics are agreeing with it. But if you like the show, that's ok with me, all of this is subjective, Daredevil happens to be my favorite Marvel character that's why I like the second characters as well like the comics version of Echo.
If I was someone who read the comics version of Echo, maybe I would feel different. I can even understand how those fans might feel about the changes. But since I'm not, I came to the character open minded and the show worked for me. Loved the fights, and the family connection, really looking forward to seeing Echo in the MCU and her dynamic with Daredevil. Also didn't watch What if, so it was a fun experience for me that didn't come with the constant comparing of the two characters.
@@verazollinger6862yeah, we're gonna disagree, I think this is a very solid, well done show. Are the fights as good as some in the Netflix show? No. Do the ten seconds of bad fighting ruin the show for me? Absolutely not. I can see where the show was changed from something campy to something darker.
Nah some people are just really narrow minded and expect a very specific, generic adaptation without a single change. I've been a comic fan for decades now but am way more open to multiple instances of a character existing.
Literally same. I feel like the people who read the comments and just need to get over the fact that Marvel has been making changes from the comics to the MCU. This is a known fact at this point just roll with it.
The first X-Men movie didn't go by the comic book either and I was irritated. I became friends with it finally. But you're right the mcu was so popular in part by its connectivity so some of the creatives leaving that connectivity and source material behind is bizarre.
Echo is Choctaw who were forcefully resettled to Oklahoma and Kahhori is Mohawk from New York/Canada. They are two different tribes and I appreciate Marvel highlighting both cultures.
Now of course they are different tribes, but in pre-production they could have changed the origins to make them be the same. Especially since Kahhori is a completely original character. That saying it's also fine to represent the different tribes, but me personally I would have preferred the connected universe.
You are right, it maybe would've helped if Marvel had the foresight to develope Kahhori as a Choctaw instead of Mohawk to conncet her with Echo. But in the end it's a nice thing that Marvel gives representation to different native american communities. X-Men comics so far have offered the best native american representation with the Proudstars as members of the Apache tribe and Danielle Moonstar and Forge as Cheyennes.
This show is another case of the MCU being more focused on representation and culture rather than the character, and it once again only hurts the content. Everything doesn't have to be a cultural history lesson. People are watching being they enjoy superheroes and want to see them ripped from the pages and placed on screen.
The "misleading" Daredevil marketing and the tacked on MA rating will backfire. People don't like being bluffed (repeatedly). Future marketing efforts will lose a lot of impact.
I didn’t think I had to say this, but I feel like someone needs to let Grace know that not all Native Americans are from the same tribe, or the same at all
I mean that was mean but I agree I hate that most MCU shows always start off really strong and then end so disappointingly like what is going on with these awful final episodes?
I don’t know how the indigenous elements to the story DON’T tie directly into crime arc posed. I agree that maybe they could have been a little more comic accurate, but I overall really enjoyed the Choctaw perspective. It also felt very different to me than Kahhori
I find it interesting how people were surprised that it wasn’t going to be set in New York. I swear there was some articles coming out like a year ago that were talking about the plot of the show. Or at least I saw it. I saw how it was saying that it’s about her going back to her hometown.
You can't expect the average person to read all articles about projects. I personally stopped doing that altogether because I realized I get too obsessed about all information and then end up knowing everything before I even see the finished project.
Honestly, to me this was the best show after Wandavision. I was afraid this would be exactly what you described you wanted cuz to me that is boring, so i was not excited at all until the last trailers. I personally like the power change, but i can understand the difference is a lot. I personally like when the shows focus on the characters like this and Moon Knight, instead of just setting up something, idk but i am afraid they wont use her anymore.
I thought it was a strong moment when Echo said to Kingpin You care about me so much?---"you never even bothered to learn to sign." Their scenes were the best part of the show. I did not care for all the changes to her character. I was really annoyed that her costume in the end was essentially Wanda's just with the symbols added. At least make it black, her signature color
As primarily an overall MCU fan, I liked that Echo wasn’t made to be the same as Taskmaster. I like the kind of Avatar the Last Airbender idea that each descendant has more teachers, and therefore more powers to choose from. I just wanted to see her learn to master each power, and then figure out how to utilize them strategically in a fight. And I wasn’t sure what power Maya herself added to the mix, if that’s how it works.
I personally liked the power change, we don’t need two task masters, but I wish the power was more or less her borrowing skills (like the sharp shooting and agility and brain power) and not HEALING or actual super powers. That way it’s kind of the same but a great difference.
@Ne0Nights uhm...i get that you really like this show, but you do know most people in REAL LIFE would still ask those same questions if they found a person who survived a gunshot to the face?! That's not something most normal people would the blase about!😂
That was a good show, but the last two episodes were just too compacted and too fast. If it was 10 episodes long, it would have been better. The fight scenes were legit af..
Why does the MCU drastically change the female characters' origins more than the male? It's very distracting from a comic book fan perspective. I get Scarlet Witch needing to be changed b/c Marvel didn't have the rights to the mutants at the time the character was brought into the MCU, but the others are rarely true to the source material. I personally think Daredevil has the dumbest origin story; however, his is faithfully adapted; however, She-Hulk, Echo, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, and Elektra gets a full overhaul.
I never read her comic and so I appreciated her character in the show. She had heart and was relatable. I was very impressed with her acting. I didnt realize Hawkeye was her first ever role and that she is really a deaf amputee!! Loved the culture of her people
So, again Disneys Story Teams think that representation (on a fantasy-surface-level only, tbh) means a good show instead of coming up with stories, storytelling and then simply injecting characters that have a different background from what we have seen a million times. It’s getting absolutely boring tbh
It's funny Grace has a problem with them changing Echo's powers (and origin partially), but was perfectly fine and happy when they did the same to Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan). Guess now she can see how we fans felt.
I disagree with having Maya and Kahori being a part of the same bloodline, it gives off the "all black people know each other" vibes, Kahori's story was based in the fountain of youth timeline which is nowhere near Oklahoma, plus the fact that it was two different tribes...its like saying Sam Wilson and Nick Fury should be a part of the same bloodline or saying Steve Rodgers and Peter Parker should be a part of the same bloodline
Hey, I am thinking of watching Echo but does kingpin yell a lot I’m not a big fan of Vincents yell. is there a lot of yelling in general? thank you I would appreciate any feedback.
She would fight, maybe not Kingpin but anyone else.. The only reason she did not fight Kingpin is that she was trying to save the man that she saw as her uncle and adoptive family member for so long in her life.
I really wished the show would have developed that storyline more. Focusing on her and the Kingpin, the way she viewed him as a mentor/father figure and who later betrayed her by killing her father. I think that would have made it more compelling and emotionally investing.
@@rode8927she literally thinks of him as more of an uncle and that was like really apparent to me thst she actually wasn't that close or trusting of him, but was still grateful for what he provided, thus showed mercy in the end
Excellent synapse of this show. I was really hoping for the mood and street level brawling Daredevil offered. The cosmic power thing felt like a distraction. The native lore could have been better utilized as inspiration rather than a magic “get out of trouble” card. The last episode was a cheap out. They needed a big fight with King Pin. I felt cheated.
I almost feel myself understanding the conservatives more with every new Marvel series released on Disney+. They keep screwing up existing characters only for diversity. I'm all for diversity, but then simply come up with completely new characters.
@@rafaelmanzo9497 Absolutely, you are right. But everything that is not comics accurate (like her backstory) is clearly done with an additional focus on diversity in mind while the character clearly didn't need that.
I am very impressed with the Echo show. Visually it looks better and feels better than half of the other Marvel shows. There was so much depth here and I felt they seamlessly meshed the story together. It feels drawing at times because echo her character feels torn into directions literally like obviously that’s the story’s symbolism.
😮 Kind of glad that Kahori and Echo aren't related, even w/ the similar power look. Too often poc characters are written to be blood related in the same universe or one character is given prominence and acts as representation for everyone that looks like them. Kudos for them not taking that path imo.
Yeah but now you give all the minority characters the same powers like black people only getting movie roles about slavery and discrimination. You're missing variety.
Echo was wonderful. A great first attempt at the spotlight brand, might not have struck the landing but it’s a great concept and the first episode HOOKED me
I feel like Marvel shouldn't have let go of their 'Special Presentations' and all their upcoming 'Marvel Spotlight' shows should just be special presentations. This 5 episode show could have been condensed into an hour long special, focusing simply on the Kingpin / New York side of Echo's life, tying directly into the Daredevil show where she'd be a major side-character!!
I watched the show without spoilers, without people telling me was good or bad, and in my opinion it was a good show compared to she hulk and secret invasion.
Lol what about comparing it to past MCU greats? She hulk and secret invasion can make even a high school level fan made project seem Oscar worthy in comparison.
I agree they keep hiring these writers and directors who arent comic book fans and have an ego and hubris to think they can reinvent the wheel and insert things that dont need to be inserted. Like Namor. He didn't need to be changed either
16:17 yeah, DD was going easy on her. Every time he landed a serious punch or kick, Maya was send fly away almost down from the count 😅 was a solid scene
Honestly, I think the show was overall watchable (except for an garbage final episode) with some interesting concepts and unique ideas and 1,5 good fight scenes and decent performances
Maybe the daredevil vs echo fight was a rehearsal since not a single punch or kick landed. When you showed the 3 shots of daredevil flipping over the fence I wish you did 2-3 frames later to see how he misses kicking the shotgun by 5 feet but she dropped it anyways lol
they better bring her back for daredevil born again and just make her like she was in hawkeye. elements of this show were great, but the ending really wrote her into a corner. Such a shame the creatives did this to a really cool character in the comics.
I would think the reason why they aren't in the same bloodline, is that they arent even from the same people. Kahhoori is supposed to be Mohawk and from the new show Echo is obviously now Choctow. If anything Echo undercut itself as well as the idea of a Native American hero by making the most pandering MCU version(if you disagree look how they changed her costume). Kahhoori on the other hand, could've been in a movie imo. She's maybe a copy of Pocahontas to Grace, but she's just Captain Marvel with a story worth actually telling in my opinion.
Alpha Flight has always had a Native American superhero Well before modern day And another one who is gay (and always has been, no retcon needed) But no, nothing before Sana Amanat's tenure exists Edit: Should have just done a Daredevil show with her having a major subplot over a few episodes, kept comics accurate Save the mystic stuff for other characters Maybe hint at Alpha Flight ( the original one )
And come on... Daredevil is not gonna tell Echo "hey I'm blind". If they played in the direction that she's deaf and he's blind during their fight, it wouldn't feel natural. The whole thing is that no one believes that Daredevil can be blind. It's only after they know each other that they can play with that aspect.
Loved both the Kingpin crime parts of the show and the cultural family side! Though, ofc, I can understand why fans of the comic character might not like all the redefining they did. Definitely much better than secret invasion, it’s hard to compare it to the other Disney+ shows because it’s more akin to the Netflix shows, but I’d say it was definitely good overall! I feel like I’m seeing it get over-hated online and I just feel so bad. Anyways, loved the review, thanks for putting it out! ❤
@@ValyrianPrince yeah you’re probably right about that. I just think, even if the Netflix shows might’ve been better, this is still up there in the same caliber with them, like it’s not drastically worse
Grace I think you’re spot on with this review, there’s a lot to like and some excellent moments but such a disappointing fumble at the end. Alaqua Cox did an excellent job, Echo and Kingpin and Daredevil were great, but some of the writing and creative choices at the end were bizarre.
I really felt like the last 2 episodes of the show really holds it back. I liked the first 3 but some of 4 and 5 are so lacklustre and just… weird. It’s hard to put my finger on it exactly. You can tell this show was all over the cutting room floor.
I thoroughly enjoyed this show. I will also say I, too, agree that the creatives should not have strayed from the comics in terms of her abilities to copy a person’s movements. As far as connectivity with Kahorri, that’s a bit more complicated: for one, Kahorri’s tribe was Mohawk and Echo is part of the Choctaw community. And two, Kahorri is a multiverse character. Her character is in a whole other universe. The MCU has struggled in my opinion, to make the multiverse phase work. They were really only able to do that sort of thing Doctor Strange 2, where you could pluck different characters from different worlds.
She proposed that idea because there are visuals that reminds us of Kahhori and it would've helped both characters if Kahhori had been developed as a Choktaw instead to connect with Echo.
MCU NEEDS to figure out how to end shows. I really liked Echo right up until the end. These shows (for the most part) have excelled when they’ve just been themselves and fall apart when they get MCU generic.
So they can't end in a big cgi fight or an emotional heel turn, what are your preferred options cuz they're running out of ways to please the nitpickers lol
I'm curious if Echo was targeted for a release in November, originally. Not releasing this series during Native American Heritage Month seems like a huge miss!
Also. The 2030 agenda is weighing a lot in Disney these days, so representation and active feminism is a must ordered from the real owners of the company (ies).
I disagree with the idea of making them share a blood line because it's not important if Echo and Kohari share a bloodline. The fact is, many Native American tribes share similarities but they are all their own entity, just because they have similarities doesn't mean they have to be related. it's the same argument I've been seeing people make on X, if Scarlet witch is so powerful what is the need for Captain Marvel - it's because it's ok if there is more then one. everything is not the same for everyone and it does not need to be. The original Avengers line up has 4 American White guys, a god (also white) and a white woman and we're seriously on here talking about why 2 Native American characters are not related to each other?? I mean seriously? It's the same reason Black Panther, Sam Wilson and Col. Rhodes are not related. they might all be black men but they do not share a blood line. again, it's ok to have more then one.
I guess it's about expectations. I enjoyed Echo, while I did not know her precise story in the comics before watching. I expected it to be worse. But this was a decent watch. It's currently 72% on RT, with 68% audience score. I would agree; Echo is a solid 7 for me. I think the 6.4 on IMDb is a bit too low. I also agree with Grace on the lack of connectivity to the MCU. Maybe I would have added more Daredevil and cameos, and keep Echo closer to the source material, to keep it connected to the wider MCU. Now it's more of a standalone miniseries. It's better than Secret Invasion in my opinion, that was problematic, and ridiculous at points. And a bigger case of: missed opportunities. But like G'iah (Emilia Clarke) from that show - and also the characters from The Eternals by the way - I do not have a very strong desire to see the characters from Echo again anytime soon in the MCU. It's probably better to keep this separate.
Hi Grace! I thought maybe I could just sneak listen to you review the 1st two episodes, but I paused this 12 seconds in, after your clear spoiler warning 😅❤
I just watched the show over the last 2 days and I agree… she’s best with Daredevil and Kingpin. I like the Native American elements too, I just wish they had done it a little differently? Thankfully I watched it BEFORE starting What If season 2 (last night) so I hadn’t seen the Kahhori episode yet.
Brilliant analysis and review the show felt like 2 shows in the same season. One from the gritty Netflix Daredevil universe and the other from the Disney universe that has been ruining characters. Loved episode one but it constantly kept going down hill from there to the finale which was the worst thing a show can be and that's being corny. Hoping they fix Maya because after ep1 I loved Maya and was emotionally invested in her.
I feel like this was a second draft that needed to go back to the drawing board. The whole mythical side should've been scrapped for a more grounded approach to the character because they just couldn't reconcile both plotlines properly. The ending of episode 5 was so goofy to the point where I immediately checked out, the fact that those scenes got past preproduction is beyond me. The first 3 episodes were solid though so I'll give em that. Kingpin being 0/2 on his fights in D+ shows is wild though
The little girl Maya was well cast. She really looked like the adult Maya.
I believe the young Maya is Alaqua's cousin in real life - so there is family resemble
They're actually related (second cousins).
twas her "real life" cousin
Well said Grace. These properties need people who like and value the comics. Not like that guy who didn't even read Secret Invasion.
Strange 2 guy didn’t watch Wanda.
If they can’t be bothered to, why should I?
I remember one of the people in Marvel Studios tasked in getting the writers and directors, etc, stated that they specifically will not choose and hire any Marvel and comicbook fans. Which is such a weird way of thinking to say the least.
JJ Abrams is a Star Wars fanboy. Tony Gilroy didn't care much for it.
@@marwynthemasterful6369 He didn't watch the show because they were filming it as he was writing Doctor Strange 2. Lizzy said herself that right after Wandavision, she had to start filming Doctor Strange 2, which meant the script was already written before the show even went in post.
@@marwynthemasterful6369the ending of WandaVision directly leads into the next scene where Wanda appears. She locks Agatha back in a hex and reads the Darkhold despite her warnings lmfao
I think it's sad that Marvel and the MCU has got into such a state that I'd rather spend time watching the entire spoiler review than engaging with the series itself. You've saved me a few hours time investment into Echo. Thanks Grace.
Same here
Same
Same
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Same
My gut feeling is that the creative team isn't being held to the necessary standards of quality. Not just in this show, but more broadly in the MCU. Creatives are making choices that clearly don't work, but where's the push back?
Exactly! It really feels like there no quality control in the MCU anymore.
You need people like Benson & Moorhead who inherently understand good writing and storytelling, and know how to extract great performances and present it with style.
I actually feel the opposite. It feels more like Marvel not trusting the creative teams they hire and then too much interference hinders the final product. They're doing a Rise of Skywalker and overcorrecting everything when they should be more trusting and collaborative rather than random hires and then too much restriction.
"Clearly don't work" to you?? To the puritanical Christians needing the Bible followed without any updates even from Choctaw people themselves lmfao
@sarcasmxkate to be fair they have been doing things like that since phase one, it's just Endgame was such an accomplishment that people expect everything they make from now on to be on that level, the MCU has always been a roller coaster ride of quality and creativity it's just more noticeable now because instead of having about 20 projects in 10 years, they pushed out about 20 projects in a little more than 2 years
i liked the show overall, but the final "fight" was so awkward, and her new powers are pretty boring imo
It's like some weird mesh of Penance Stare and Cloak's ability
Her comic version is much more bland to me, mimicry isn't cool if you can't do anything supernatural (unless you can)
Why do they need Iron Man AND War Machine?? Why do they need Steve AND Bucky?? Why do they need Doctor Strange AND Wong?? Why do they need Spider-Man AND Miles AND Gwen AND etc..?? Why do they need Ant-Man AND The Wasp?? Why do they ALL need a villain that mirrors their powers exactly??
Oh no we can't have two Indigenous superheroes at the same time that slightly resemble each other in a minor way. "Why can't Kohhori just be her ancestor??" They're from two totally different tribes. Did you really just see two Indigenous women and think they are the same?
How many hero's origins are just "my parents/uncle died and now I'm a hero?" Why is multiple things being similar suddenly an issue?
YES!!!!! !!!! !!! !! !
🥂💐
The Macgyver skills came from her grandfather who was shown to be really skilled at tinkering
Those are inherited? As far as I could tell every power/skill she gained from the past "echoes" were from FEMALES.
no only the women had the powers of generational Echo, no men from her ancestry ever had the echo
@@tenerife_sea yeah it’s not a power, it’s just a skill she picked up from her grandfather…nothing mystical just learning.
I mean you could explain it like that, but she saw him last 20 years ago when she was like 8. And it wasn't established that she tinkered on the side as a hobby.
I felt a lot things didn't work like the ancestors and Echo's overall arc. What worked were the John Wick style action scenes, Kingpin, and the beautiful quiet, almost slice of life atmosphere of a small rural town.
It really could’ve been special if they just respected the character they were working on instead of trying to change her
I couldn’t agree more
You sure you weren't watching John Wick? I didn't get that from the action scenes.
@@cain1314 You sure you watched the show? The Daredevil and skate rink fights were obviously John Wick inspired.
MCU continues to hire people that do not love or know the characters and ignore the source material. 😢
Secret invasion was absolutely horrible! You really could not make that show any worse if you tried. I really want to know how Secret Invasion was such a huge fail. Who’s fault was it?
*whose
They didn't have a showrunner for a long time and then just plopped it on whoever was willing (they never read the original run) so it was a perfect storm. They made the show off of producer's notes like "start the skrull war, set up Dorrek 8" but that's it. Didn't ever see the iconic imagery like Elektra Skrull laying on a table
Feige’s
Lord that finale was weak as hell, it really peaked at episode 3
Bull crap. That ending was deeper than you think. You people just want punchy punchy. That ending was amazing.
@@spinningbackkick6021and who exactly is “you people” sir? Please elaborate
@@spinningbackkick6021Two women with no combat training, one of them geriatric, suddenly beating up professional hired killers with badass moves because magical native powers, plus Maya suddenly going "let me heal your childhood trauma and let you go" on the man who had her father killed, had groomed her to become a murderer, and almost killed the rest of her family out of wounded pride because she still/again loved her abuser like an uncle... Yes, totally deep.
@@Ivanlois383 Complainers.. At least you actually watched it to form your opinion..
@@twincast2005 Yes. It was good.. Just because you didn't like it doesn't make it meaningless..
To answer your question regarding connecting the two characters: Maya is Choctaw, while the other is Mohawk; would you do this with, say, an Italian and Irish character?
I don't see this as an issue in pre production. Of course now it's too late as they are different tribes, but Kahhori is a fully original character that didn't exist before the what if episodes. If the respective show runners would have compared notes at the production phase, they would have seen, that they work in similar projects and could have connected them.
I mean the actress who plays Bonnie is the voice actress of Kahhori, so it's even more baffling they didn't think of combining the bloodlines
I really appreciate the MCU making a statement about how Native Americans have many different tribes. They don't all need to be lumped up as a single identity for the sake of the audiences ignorance. They are many peoples and have many different stories.
I love Grace but she does argue for ethnic backgrounds to be recognized in other circumstances. This is no different than that. Just because they're both Native Superheroes does NOT mean they need to be the same.
@SCTVTulsa I love showing different tribes. Story wise, I feel it would have made sense to connect them because their power looks so similar. It would've been a great Easter egg for those who watched both shows. And maybe even entice some people to go back and watch the show if they missed it.
yes,
and it's actually done all the time, religion practices in particular are always all over the place, and usually very much chosen ad hoc to fit the narative, the same thing with a lot of other customs, the witcher completly ignored it's polish roots for example. Amazon primes rings of power completely ignored the fact the creator gave specific etchnicities to different groups.
Disney is constantly ignoring it's own storylines, Snow White being the current example where the original story was made by white europeans with very specific skin complexion and Disney just changed it to whatever it wanted.
I think the "MacGuyvery" comes from her Grandfather who fixed and rebuilt her leg using scraps around his shop.
4:54 Echos costume in the comics is both modern and a touch of her native American roots. The problem with the mcu suit is that they changed echos native American tribe in favor of other. Removing the iconic feather look which belonged to another tribe.
Yeah, I saw the suit and was like, "Yeesh, hard pass! Keep the motorcycle jacket!"
Yeah the suit was a downgrade.. the leg was cool..
@@Cuzane True and the powers does not align with who echo is and I'm curious on how adding the supernatural powers will help echo as a street level hero with no supernatural enemies.
@@lizOnar I think you and grace are right. She might just get shelved because it doesn't match.. maybe they bring Taskmaster?
I agree: “Kahhori is a lead. Echo is a supporting character.” I like Kahhori more, but I do really like Maya as well. They just need to give her more to do.
And Episode 4 was my favorite of this series. Chula, Maya’s grandmother, was my favorite character.
The final episode fight was really short af, it needed more action.
REMEBER when grace said this was a back door daredevil show😭😭🧢
Kahhori is Mohawk and Echo is Choctaw, so no they should not be related, by that logic let's make sure every white character in the MCU is related, even though they come from different regions and cultures, and lets make every latino character Mexican because god forbid the minorities have different backgrounds
Thank you so much for saying this. People are being very ignorant with this take just because they’re both Native American. It shows me that they’re watching these shows but are not actually paying attention.
No matter how you interpret it, this show sucked! They should’ve just stuck to the books!
@@kingchaos6050nice try
I would have connected them in pre production already and make them both originally from the same tribe for the synergy. But now it's too late because the district tribes are established. And that's what what Grace meant as well, when she said to have them from the same tribe.
But I'm also fine with presenting different tribes.
Don't forget that the actress who played her cousin is the same actress who voiced Kahhori. She is a native Canadian (Mohawk) born south of Montreal.
Even stranger that they didn't find a way to connect the stories.
More vandalism by hacktivists. Such a shame
Charlie cox was in here for like 30 seconds. What a tease.
Making Kahhori related to Echo makes no sense when they’re not even from the same universe nor the same tribe. Two Indigenous characters don’t need to be related to each other.
There are major flaws in your argument about why did they introduce Echo and Kahori around similar times? First you’re coming from the perspective of there’s only one Native American culture which there is not. Also, the vast majority people aren’t watching. What if let’s be honest, more people watch Echo.
I got to see the first two episodes last night at a screener followed by a Q&A with Alaqua Cox and Chaske Spencer!
Sorry to hear that. Thoughts and prayers!
I completely agree with you Grace in this review. Echo was a very cool and stablish character in the comics, a badass, this seems like two different stories mesh together, and I don't see the need to change her this drastically, not all the characters in the MCU need mystic or glowing powers, Daredevil is an amazing example where subtlety with the extra abilities make a very human an compelling character.
I feel like people have rose-colored glasses when it comes to Daredevil. Daredevil had the same amount of mysticism as Echo did, and expanding further to that corner of Netflix MCU, Luke having impenetrable skin, Jessica's portayal of super-strength, and Iron-Fists glowing powers, it's all the same as Echo. Echo was great, just like Daredevil was.
Echo is a side character she never caught on. Its so weird people are pretending like she was this widely amazing character when in 2010 post bendis daredevil and new avengets no one knew she existed
Of course it seems like two stories meshed together, the whole theme of her story is two stories creating disharmony in her own life! Like, wow, I can't believe good writing is wasted on y'all
@@nailinthefashion I understand the premise, but I really don't consider that was good writing, but this is subjective, if you like it that's ok, the thing is I like a lot the Character of Echo in the comics, and changing it so drastically is what bothered me, and Grace touched exactly the points of why, so I happened to agree with her on this one.
@@dmp1571 yeah but those characters had those backstories already in the comics, at least the mystic ones, that was the context of them with Echo her context was different from this, at least with what the showrunners added because they thought her powers were lame, and for me the character was great already, and most of the critics are agreeing with it. But if you like the show, that's ok with me, all of this is subjective, Daredevil happens to be my favorite Marvel character that's why I like the second characters as well like the comics version of Echo.
Kevin needs to find his back born and start saying no to the people he hires and hire better people whilst he's at it
If I was someone who read the comics version of Echo, maybe I would feel different. I can even understand how those fans might feel about the changes. But since I'm not, I came to the character open minded and the show worked for me. Loved the fights, and the family connection, really looking forward to seeing Echo in the MCU and her dynamic with Daredevil. Also didn't watch What if, so it was a fun experience for me that didn't come with the constant comparing of the two characters.
@@verazollinger6862yeah, we're gonna disagree, I think this is a very solid, well done show. Are the fights as good as some in the Netflix show? No. Do the ten seconds of bad fighting ruin the show for me? Absolutely not. I can see where the show was changed from something campy to something darker.
I liked the show as well i didn’t read comics and loved their take on it
i really enjoyed it too as someone who hasnt read the comics and skipped whats if season two. maybe that is the magic formula lol.
Nah some people are just really narrow minded and expect a very specific, generic adaptation without a single change.
I've been a comic fan for decades now but am way more open to multiple instances of a character existing.
Literally same. I feel like the people who read the comments and just need to get over the fact that Marvel has been making changes from the comics to the MCU. This is a known fact at this point just roll with it.
The first X-Men movie didn't go by the comic book either and I was irritated.
I became friends with it finally.
But you're right the mcu was so popular in part by its connectivity so some of the creatives leaving that connectivity and source material behind is bizarre.
But not every character interacted with incursions in the comics before one happened either like ... Squirrel Girl was just eating nuts ..
Echo is Choctaw who were forcefully resettled to Oklahoma and Kahhori is Mohawk from New York/Canada. They are two different tribes and I appreciate Marvel highlighting both cultures.
Now of course they are different tribes, but in pre-production they could have changed the origins to make them be the same. Especially since Kahhori is a completely original character.
That saying it's also fine to represent the different tribes, but me personally I would have preferred the connected universe.
You are right, it maybe would've helped if Marvel had the foresight to develope Kahhori as a Choctaw instead of Mohawk to conncet her with Echo. But in the end it's a nice thing that Marvel gives representation to different native american communities. X-Men comics so far have offered the best native american representation with the Proudstars as members of the Apache tribe and Danielle Moonstar and Forge as Cheyennes.
Wyatt Wingfoot.
Most D+ shows end with a wardrobe change 😂. This is getting ridiculous
This was genuinely a solid show, better than half of the other MCU shows, including Moon Knight ✨
Watching this made me realize I was too harsh on iron fist.
😂😂😂
😅
This show is another case of the MCU being more focused on representation and culture rather than the character, and it once again only hurts the content. Everything doesn't have to be a cultural history lesson. People are watching being they enjoy superheroes and want to see them ripped from the pages and placed on screen.
Why are representation hires always women?? Why can’t they bring someone like Red Wolf to screen. Does anyone not see this?
The "misleading" Daredevil marketing and the tacked on MA rating will backfire. People don't like being bluffed (repeatedly). Future marketing efforts will lose a lot of impact.
I think there’s room for two Native American characters whose culture is a large part of their identities in the MCU.
I didn’t think I had to say this, but I feel like someone needs to let Grace know that not all Native Americans are from the same tribe, or the same at all
That last episode was the worst thing i’ve ever seen in my life…that end was laughable. besides that solid show.
I didn't hate it but it was the shortest and so fast paced but It was better then secret invasion
@DarthGorrmight have thought it was anti climatic with no action using mantis like powers
@DarthGorr i’m just being real man
I mean that was mean but I agree I hate that most MCU shows always start off really strong and then end so disappointingly like what is going on with these awful final episodes?
Is the Kingpin battle?
I don’t know how the indigenous elements to the story DON’T tie directly into crime arc posed. I agree that maybe they could have been a little more comic accurate, but I overall really enjoyed the Choctaw perspective. It also felt very different to me than Kahhori
ayo who hasn’t had the Phoenix Force at this point 😭
I find it interesting how people were surprised that it wasn’t going to be set in New York. I swear there was some articles coming out like a year ago that were talking about the plot of the show. Or at least I saw it. I saw how it was saying that it’s about her going back to her hometown.
You can't expect the average person to read all articles about projects. I personally stopped doing that altogether because I realized I get too obsessed about all information and then end up knowing everything before I even see the finished project.
Honestly, to me this was the best show after Wandavision. I was afraid this would be exactly what you described you wanted cuz to me that is boring, so i was not excited at all until the last trailers. I personally like the power change, but i can understand the difference is a lot. I personally like when the shows focus on the characters like this and Moon Knight, instead of just setting up something, idk but i am afraid they wont use her anymore.
Worth noting i am not a daredevil fan (i plan on watching the show) and the crime/street focused shows arent really my thing, sooo that explains it.
I thought it was a strong moment when Echo said to Kingpin You care about me so much?---"you never even bothered to learn to sign."
Their scenes were the best part of the show.
I did not care for all the changes to her character.
I was really annoyed that her costume in the end was essentially Wanda's just with the symbols added. At least make it black, her signature color
As primarily an overall MCU fan, I liked that Echo wasn’t made to be the same as Taskmaster. I like the kind of Avatar the Last Airbender idea that each descendant has more teachers, and therefore more powers to choose from. I just wanted to see her learn to master each power, and then figure out how to utilize them strategically in a fight. And I wasn’t sure what power Maya herself added to the mix, if that’s how it works.
As another mcu fan I can assure you no one cares about either echo or taskmaster now
This Echo show is basically a ‘Killing the Echo character show’ I can’t believe Marvel keeps making these mistakes over and over again.
I know that Maya is upset that some of her family didn’t reach out to her. But her cousin Bonnie reached out to her and she never responded.
I personally liked the power change, we don’t need two task masters, but I wish the power was more or less her borrowing skills (like the sharp shooting and agility and brain power) and not HEALING or actual super powers. That way it’s kind of the same but a great difference.
A strong supporting character is much better than a poor leading character.
Well said !
I just finished watching and I loveeeed it so much. I literally cried omg
Another issue is that they NEVER EXPLAIN HOW KINGPIN SURVIVED BEING SHOT IN THE FACE at point blank range.
What’s to explain? People in real life can survive bullets to the head
@Ne0Nights uhm...i get that you really like this show, but you do know most people in REAL LIFE would still ask those same questions if they found a person who survived a gunshot to the face?! That's not something most normal people would the blase about!😂
@@Ne0Nightsare… are you serious? stop defending this mid show
@@kmphemp why are you so mad? Bc someone likes something you don’t? Sounds like insecurity
@@Ne0Nights no one’s mad here. it’s just weird how much bootlicking you do for Disney and MCU
That was a good show, but the last two episodes were just too compacted and too fast. If it was 10 episodes long, it would have been better. The fight scenes were legit af..
Why does the MCU drastically change the female characters' origins more than the male? It's very distracting from a comic book fan perspective. I get Scarlet Witch needing to be changed b/c Marvel didn't have the rights to the mutants at the time the character was brought into the MCU, but the others are rarely true to the source material. I personally think Daredevil has the dumbest origin story; however, his is faithfully adapted; however, She-Hulk, Echo, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, and Elektra gets a full overhaul.
I never read her comic and so I appreciated her character in the show. She had heart and was relatable. I was very impressed with her acting. I didnt realize Hawkeye was her first ever role and that she is really a deaf amputee!! Loved the culture of her people
Hawkeye never mentions anything about the sun
So, again Disneys Story Teams think that representation (on a fantasy-surface-level only, tbh) means a good show instead of coming up with stories, storytelling and then simply injecting characters that have a different background from what we have seen a million times. It’s getting absolutely boring tbh
It's funny Grace has a problem with them changing Echo's powers (and origin partially), but was perfectly fine and happy when they did the same to Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan).
Guess now she can see how we fans felt.
Anyone else thought the intro credits were just a 007 imitation?
I disagree with having Maya and Kahori being a part of the same bloodline, it gives off the "all black people know each other" vibes, Kahori's story was based in the fountain of youth timeline which is nowhere near Oklahoma, plus the fact that it was two different tribes...its like saying Sam Wilson and Nick Fury should be a part of the same bloodline or saying Steve Rodgers and Peter Parker should be a part of the same bloodline
Hey, I am thinking of watching Echo but does kingpin yell a lot I’m not a big fan of Vincents yell. is there a lot of yelling in general? thank you I would appreciate any feedback.
She would fight, maybe not Kingpin but anyone else.. The only reason she did not fight Kingpin is that she was trying to save the man that she saw as her uncle and adoptive family member for so long in her life.
I really wished the show would have developed that storyline more. Focusing on her and the Kingpin, the way she viewed him as a mentor/father figure and who later betrayed her by killing her father. I think that would have made it more compelling and emotionally investing.
@@rode8927she literally thinks of him as more of an uncle and that was like really apparent to me thst she actually wasn't that close or trusting of him, but was still grateful for what he provided, thus showed mercy in the end
We’re never getting a proper Taskmaster-ish power set in the MCU
Excellent synapse of this show. I was really hoping for the mood and street level brawling Daredevil offered. The cosmic power thing felt like a distraction. The native lore could have been better utilized as inspiration rather than a magic “get out of trouble” card. The last episode was a cheap out. They needed a big fight with King Pin. I felt cheated.
I almost feel myself understanding the conservatives more with every new Marvel series released on Disney+. They keep screwing up existing characters only for diversity. I'm all for diversity, but then simply come up with completely new characters.
Except Echo is an existing character who ALREADY IS diverse. Those parts of the character aren't an addition. She's Native American & Deaf.
@@rafaelmanzo9497 Absolutely, you are right. But everything that is not comics accurate (like her backstory) is clearly done with an additional focus on diversity in mind while the character clearly didn't need that.
I am very impressed with the Echo show. Visually it looks better and feels better than half of the other Marvel shows. There was so much depth here and I felt they seamlessly meshed the story together. It feels drawing at times because echo her character feels torn into directions literally like obviously that’s the story’s symbolism.
“Make America Skate Again” 😂
Nothing wrong with that 😊
“Why didn’t she use her power to save her dad”
Cuz she didn’t unlock it yet. Cmon lmao
😮 Kind of glad that Kahori and Echo aren't related, even w/ the similar power look. Too often poc characters are written to be blood related in the same universe or one character is given prominence and acts as representation for everyone that looks like them. Kudos for them not taking that path imo.
Yeah but now you give all the minority characters the same powers like black people only getting movie roles about slavery and discrimination. You're missing variety.
I enjoyed Kingpin and the skate ring part where she fought every one, but that was it
Echo was wonderful. A great first attempt at the spotlight brand, might not have struck the landing but it’s a great concept and the first episode HOOKED me
Zzzzz
I feel like Marvel shouldn't have let go of their 'Special Presentations' and all their upcoming 'Marvel Spotlight' shows should just be special presentations. This 5 episode show could have been condensed into an hour long special, focusing simply on the Kingpin / New York side of Echo's life, tying directly into the Daredevil show where she'd be a major side-character!!
I watched the show without spoilers, without people telling me was good or bad, and in my opinion it was a good show compared to she hulk and secret invasion.
Lol what about comparing it to past MCU greats? She hulk and secret invasion can make even a high school level fan made project seem Oscar worthy in comparison.
I agree they keep hiring these writers and directors who arent comic book fans and have an ego and hubris to think they can reinvent the wheel and insert things that dont need to be inserted.
Like Namor. He didn't need to be changed either
16:17 yeah, DD was going easy on her. Every time he landed a serious punch or kick, Maya was send fly away almost down from the count 😅 was a solid scene
Honestly, I think the show was overall watchable (except for an garbage final episode) with some interesting concepts and unique ideas and 1,5 good fight scenes and decent performances
Maybe the daredevil vs echo fight was a rehearsal since not a single punch or kick landed. When you showed the 3 shots of daredevil flipping over the fence I wish you did 2-3 frames later to see how he misses kicking the shotgun by 5 feet but she dropped it anyways lol
they better bring her back for daredevil born again and just make her like she was in hawkeye. elements of this show were great, but the ending really wrote her into a corner. Such a shame the creatives did this to a really cool character in the comics.
I would think the reason why they aren't in the same bloodline, is that they arent even from the same people. Kahhoori is supposed to be Mohawk and from the new show Echo is obviously now Choctow.
If anything Echo undercut itself as well as the idea of a Native American hero by making the most pandering MCU version(if you disagree look how they changed her costume). Kahhoori on the other hand, could've been in a movie imo. She's maybe a copy of Pocahontas to Grace, but she's just Captain Marvel with a story worth actually telling in my opinion.
Both Echo and Daredevil are played by people whose last name is 'Cox'... It's like a real life "Martha" moment😂😂
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!? 😉
I have no intention of ever watching the show (the MCU is basically dead to me at this point) but I'll always watch and support Grace's reviews.
Alpha Flight has always had a Native American superhero
Well before modern day
And another one who is gay (and always has been, no retcon needed)
But no, nothing before Sana Amanat's tenure exists
Edit:
Should have just done a Daredevil show with her having a major subplot over a few episodes, kept comics accurate
Save the mystic stuff for other characters
Maybe hint at Alpha Flight ( the original one )
And come on... Daredevil is not gonna tell Echo "hey I'm blind". If they played in the direction that she's deaf and he's blind during their fight, it wouldn't feel natural. The whole thing is that no one believes that Daredevil can be blind. It's only after they know each other that they can play with that aspect.
Plus he’d NEVER reveal to anyone that he’s blind bc that would put his secret identity in jeopardy
the end credit idk why but i was expecting them to say norman osborn
Loved both the Kingpin crime parts of the show and the cultural family side! Though, ofc, I can understand why fans of the comic character might not like all the redefining they did. Definitely much better than secret invasion, it’s hard to compare it to the other Disney+ shows because it’s more akin to the Netflix shows, but I’d say it was definitely good overall! I feel like I’m seeing it get over-hated online and I just feel so bad. Anyways, loved the review, thanks for putting it out! ❤
@@ValyrianPrince yeah you’re probably right about that. I just think, even if the Netflix shows might’ve been better, this is still up there in the same caliber with them, like it’s not drastically worse
@@ValyrianPrince
better than iron fist and luke cage imo
I never even heard of Echo (I'm not a comic book reader) and I hated this show. I loved the Netflix Marvel shows though.
You're very virtuous❤
Grace I think you’re spot on with this review, there’s a lot to like and some excellent moments but such a disappointing fumble at the end. Alaqua Cox did an excellent job, Echo and Kingpin and Daredevil were great, but some of the writing and creative choices at the end were bizarre.
I really felt like the last 2 episodes of the show really holds it back. I liked the first 3 but some of 4 and 5 are so lacklustre and just… weird. It’s hard to put my finger on it exactly. You can tell this show was all over the cutting room floor.
I thoroughly enjoyed this show. I will also say I, too, agree that the creatives should not have strayed from the comics in terms of her abilities to copy a person’s movements. As far as connectivity with Kahorri, that’s a bit more complicated: for one, Kahorri’s tribe was Mohawk and Echo is part of the Choctaw community. And two, Kahorri is a multiverse character. Her character is in a whole other universe. The MCU has struggled in my opinion, to make the multiverse phase work. They were really only able to do that sort of thing Doctor Strange 2, where you could pluck different characters from different worlds.
She proposed that idea because there are visuals that reminds us of Kahhori and it would've helped both characters if Kahhori had been developed as a Choktaw instead to connect with Echo.
MCU NEEDS to figure out how to end shows. I really liked Echo right up until the end. These shows (for the most part) have excelled when they’ve just been themselves and fall apart when they get MCU generic.
So they can't end in a big cgi fight or an emotional heel turn, what are your preferred options cuz they're running out of ways to please the nitpickers lol
Echo was bad.
Debatable.
I'm curious if Echo was targeted for a release in November, originally. Not releasing this series during Native American Heritage Month seems like a huge miss!
"So important to so many people..."
Um, who?
Yes, when I saw the water I thought of Kohhorti, but instantly came to my mind that each of them are from different tribes.
Also. The 2030 agenda is weighing a lot in Disney these days, so representation and active feminism is a must ordered from the real owners of the company (ies).
I disagree with the idea of making them share a blood line because it's not important if Echo and Kohari share a bloodline. The fact is, many Native American tribes share similarities but they are all their own entity, just because they have similarities doesn't mean they have to be related. it's the same argument I've been seeing people make on X, if Scarlet witch is so powerful what is the need for Captain Marvel - it's because it's ok if there is more then one. everything is not the same for everyone and it does not need to be. The original Avengers line up has 4 American White guys, a god (also white) and a white woman and we're seriously on here talking about why 2 Native American characters are not related to each other?? I mean seriously? It's the same reason Black Panther, Sam Wilson and Col. Rhodes are not related. they might all be black men but they do not share a blood line. again, it's ok to have more then one.
Spitting facts here
They belong to different tribes so they wouldn’t even be related.
I guess it's about expectations. I enjoyed Echo, while I did not know her precise story in the comics before watching. I expected it to be worse. But this was a decent watch. It's currently 72% on RT, with 68% audience score. I would agree; Echo is a solid 7 for me. I think the 6.4 on IMDb is a bit too low.
I also agree with Grace on the lack of connectivity to the MCU. Maybe I would have added more Daredevil and cameos, and keep Echo closer to the source material, to keep it connected to the wider MCU. Now it's more of a standalone miniseries.
It's better than Secret Invasion in my opinion, that was problematic, and ridiculous at points. And a bigger case of: missed opportunities.
But like G'iah (Emilia Clarke) from that show - and also the characters from The Eternals by the way - I do not have a very strong desire to see the characters from Echo again anytime soon in the MCU. It's probably better to keep this separate.
Hi Grace! I thought maybe I could just sneak listen to you review the 1st two episodes, but I paused this 12 seconds in, after your clear spoiler warning 😅❤
I just watched the show over the last 2 days and I agree… she’s best with Daredevil and Kingpin. I like the Native American elements too, I just wish they had done it a little differently? Thankfully I watched it BEFORE starting What If season 2 (last night) so I hadn’t seen the Kahhori episode yet.
WHO ASKED FOR THIS SHOW?!
Brilliant analysis and review the show felt like 2 shows in the same season. One from the gritty Netflix Daredevil universe and the other from the Disney universe that has been ruining characters. Loved episode one but it constantly kept going down hill from there to the finale which was the worst thing a show can be and that's being corny. Hoping they fix Maya because after ep1 I loved Maya and was emotionally invested in her.
It was a very CW Flash ending. You set up a big battle, instead she uses POWERZ and has a therapy session with the bad guy and it's over.
I really wish Echo had been tied into Kahhori. It would have made so much sense.
I feel like this was a second draft that needed to go back to the drawing board. The whole mythical side should've been scrapped for a more grounded approach to the character because they just couldn't reconcile both plotlines properly. The ending of episode 5 was so goofy to the point where I immediately checked out, the fact that those scenes got past preproduction is beyond me.
The first 3 episodes were solid though so I'll give em that.
Kingpin being 0/2 on his fights in D+ shows is wild though