Mix Masters: The Secrets of Serban Ghenea's Sound
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- What makes Serban Ghenea a great mixer? It's not the gear.
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Serban Ghenea is probably the most critically acclaimed pop mixer of this generation.
It's not just that he's worked on some of the most streamed releases of all time. It's also that he's the kind of mixer that other mixers credit as being their favorite mixer!
Unfortunately, he's notorious for not doing interviews. But in the few he has given, he and his assistant have been open books as far as revealing exactly what tools they use. And they are all well within reach for the average producer.
So, why do his mixes sound so far above the average? That's what today's livestream is all about. We'll be analyzing Serban's mixes to figure out exactly what make them tick.
Here's a link to the Serban comparison playlist. Odd number tracks are Serban mixes. Even number tracks are another mixer on the same album: open.spotify.c...
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Big thanks to Soundtoys and Focusrite for making this episode possible.
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Serban Ghenea is one of the top pop mixers on the planet. Why is his work so acclaimed by fellow producers and mixing engineers? Justin Colletti explores.
![Mix Masters: The Secrets of Tchad Blake's Sound [Analog Tones with Digital Tools]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dlgYvkSpwWI/mqdefault.jpg)
![Mix Masters: The Secrets of Tchad Blake's Sound [Analog Tones with Digital Tools]](/img/tr.png)
-Apologies for the laggy video lag in the beginning of the stream today. New computer should be here Monday to fix the problem! :-)
-CORRECTION: "Hardest to Love", played briefly near the middle of the stream, is also a Serban mix. I accidentally referred to as an Illangelo mix. All the others are correct.
-What are your favorite Serban mixes, and what were your favorite mixes in the stream today?
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Here's a link to the Serban comparison playlist: open.spotify.com/playlist/2jG4HMtDuaXJIRINX24Y9w?si=4818cbc8c26b4fc8
Odd number tracks are mixed by Serban, even number tracks are mixed by someone else on the same album.
Great video, Justin! So many insights, making me want to try to replicate in my mixes. I am this close to pushing the button to get the Mixing Breakthroughs course but I just don't know if the material in the course is relevant to my style, which kind of melodic house electronic music. Because mixing pop, rock or electronic is quite different in terms of instrumentation, dynamics and so on.
Thank you for this fantastically educational episode and Spotify playlist!! With The Weeknd songs, do you hear vocals louder in all of Serban's mixes? I feel like vocals are all about 1db up compared to Illangelo's ones. I also wonder, should the mastering engineer have brought all the tracks on that album closer together, so we don't hear such big differences track to track?
Hey @@Mariosprt , the way Mixing Breakthroughs is structured, it's relevant to EVERY genre. I really mean that. That said, we do have specifically have melodic electronic music in there as one of the sessions. I try to have a multitrack session in every major genre.
-Justin
Hey @@brendanfaegre , thanks! Good questions. I'll have to go back to listen to compare to Illangelo's vocals directly again, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
In general, Mastering engineers at that level will be asked to have a pretty minimal treatment on the master, but there can be exceptions.
That really is a balancing act, and it's up to the producer (with potential feedback from the artist and mixing engineer) to decide how close or distant they should be. Different artists and different albums have handled this differently, so there's no one "right" answer. That's a purely aesthetic question.
Because it's a subjective aesthetic question, whatever your preferences are on that front are correct! :-)
I hope that helps,
Justin
About 15 years ago I did my first Mix for a client that was coming out on a major label. I remember going to a mates studio to play him the mix and he was like "Yeah its cool" then he says "Hey I've just got the mixes back for my record." "Who mixed them?" I asked. He replied 'Serban" He then proceeded to play a Mix so deep, wide and clear it made my mix sound like it was processed through a potato from a farm in Chernobyl. Literally my heart sank when I heard the levels between my mix and Serban's. Anyway the track I mixed ended up certified Gold so not all bad and i'm a much better mixer for that aural beat down 15 years ago. Thanks for the episode. Super informative I's love to watch more episode like these where we focus on particular mixers. I'm sure a Bob Clearmountain or Tchad Blake episode would super welcomed
Thanks so much for sharing this story Matt! Loved it.
Yes, I have both of them on my list for sure.
Very best,
Justin
I’ve got a template mixed by Serban and the way his mixing the kick and the bass is so simple, about the low end that everyone dreaming about is a simple process and it’s true that he will cut frequencies more then boost with the channelstrip3 and the plugins on his Master bus are very powerful to ear and catch bad frequencies from every track, he doesn’t do that much and he doesn’t even use compression if it’s not necessary! He’s vocal chain is very simple but the more powerful things are the reverbs that he’s using. The way he set up his session makes sense for a Radio result. A really smart guy 😊
Awesome! Would love to see and hear that sometime.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop I won’t because I respect the fact that he’s a legend for you guys! Just have a look at Phil tan mixing and you will understand Serban mix, don’t need Eq or comp if they are not necessary. Let’s the transients shine in the mix 😊
Can I listen to your mixes? I’d love to check them out
Serban’s low end is unbelievable.
Serban's treatment for pop vocals is THE gold standard. In particular, just thinking about his use of fx and how his vocals aren't too loud but always perfectly audible.
Agreed, his vocal effects and balances are always perfect for sure!
-Justin
Serban generally uses what's given to him in terms of effects. I've recorded a handful of records that were mixed by Serban and I've heard many rough mixes of songs my friend produced that were mixed by Serban and there was no real noticeable difference in the effects. He does seem to add a bit of flanging or chorusing to a vocal, but that comes across more as a texture thing than an effects thing. It's all about how he makes what's already there fit together a little bit better. And that's what a good mixer should do. They should not be taking liberties with the production of a song unless they're instructed to do so.
VERY SPECIAL ; AN EPISODE FROM THE SERBAN GHENEA INTERVIEW. A GESTURE FROM ME TO YOU :)
When Ghenea started out as an independent mixer in 1998, several of Riley's previous production clients followed him for their mixes, and Ghenea would frequently travel to Philadelphia to work with Jazzy Jeff and his production company A Touch of Jazz. He was one of the first engineers in the region to get his own Pro Tools system
Another technique Ghenea developed during his tenure at Future Recording works well in a mixing environment where constant revisions are necessary for a variety of reasons. “I started doing 'sky' mixes - mix passes where the instrumental or vocals were separated - so I didn't have to remember the mix every time someone wanted a specific change for the vocal level or a sample change that didn't become clear," he explains. "At first it was an instrumental, backing track. I would record the background vocal and lead vocal transitions on a TASCAM DA-60 timecoded DAT machine, then import them into Pro Tools and make adjustments there. Eventually I was recording stems directly into Pro Tools via the Apogee AD8000 and the stems were becoming more and more detailed. Typical separate stem crossovers only include drums, bass, keys, guitars, strings, sample loops, background vocals, lead vocals, etc. Contains. This allowed me to make changes to complex mixes without having to go back to the studio and call them up on the console. "In the end, I decided it made more sense to go full ProTools."
LOVE FROM SERBAN
Justin, this is such an incredibly helpful video. I can't speak for others but one of the biggest things I struggle with is fighting the notion that there's only one right way to mix something - as if there's a high court mixing judge out there somewhere deeming what's right and what's wrong. But this video and the practical examples that you highlight show just how wrong that is. It shows that mixing, just like all forms of art, is very subjective to the creator
Exactly, 100%!!
Couldn’t say it better myself.
The next mind blowing moment is when you realize the same is true of mastering :-)
Not everything will work for most listeners, but there’s a wide range of ways for things to sound “good” or “right”.
Thanks for the great comment,
Justin
@@SonicScoop Thanks for the great video!
The first two comparisons (although we need to keep in mind they are different songs) show what Serban does better than many others imo. The vocals are immediately the focus and draw you into the instrumental while not loosing the focus. It's smooth yet present. He also creates great excitement if something new happens in the song without making it obvious or too subtle. The song hugs you which is probably because he's not afraid of creating "warmth" in the side information. The Illangelo mix was cool but it felt layered and not glued and hugging. Also the presence of the vocal was more aggressive which makes it stand out more in front of the instrumental. This way he doesn't achieve the same glue between smooth yet present vocal in the instrumental like Serban.
This is perfectly explained! Agreed with every word of it. Thanks so much for the great comment.
-Justin
Please do a livestream with CLA talking about different mixers approach and analyzing your favourite CLA work vs what Chris thinks is his best work - it would be an absolute hit! As for Serban I think he's amazing at creating space in the mids for the vocals and his fader balance is spot on every time. PS I personally think that "Stayin' Alive" re-mix he did is not that great - I think the right guitar in the chorus is a bit too loud and the drums are too forward for the song. The original mix was already absolutely perfect for the song, it has a ton of clarity, natural feel, perfect levels and I can't even imagine a better mix for it, It is "mission impossible" to beat that haha
He’s definitely on the list!
Thanks for weighing in :-)
-Justin
In conclusion , Serban Ghenea is just a control freak :D. Love his mixes, 24k magic by Bruno Mars being my favorite mix from Serban. And hey his son Alex Ghenea coming up with practically same esthetic and top songs already.
Actually ”Hardest To Love” is mixed by Serban Ghenea, but the production is very different compared to other songs Serban is involved (although that song is a Max Martin production as well). However, it sounds like an Illangelo production and mix a lot! Serban got the perfect final polish and pleasing overall sound that I’m trying to figure out as well. Thanks for the great video!
Casper! You are 100% correct! Thanks so much for the catch. I just double checked and all the other mixes are correct. But I messed up on that one. Thanks so much for pointing it out. I'll fix it in the playlist now.
I was surprised by how much deeper the low end was on that compared to Illangelo's usual mixes and felt they were closer together than the others. Knowing that it's a Serban mix that makes sense. But know it's a Serban mix, I'm a little surprised by the hi hats being as prominent as they are. It's definitely different than the usual for him. And I think his other mixes on the album are better.
Thanks again for the correction!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop No problem! I agree with that - very unusual, even unique production by Martin-Holter. As what I know, that was very unusual song style to mix for Serban. However, those sizzling perc/hat things and rims are focal points for that genre, so maybe taming them could make the song and groove fall down. Such a beautiful composition imo, I like that song a lot!
Btw, I found a new artist, Conan Gray, that became one of my favourites recently. He has a few songs (i.e. The Final Fight and Killing Me) that are produced by Martin/Holter and mixed by the one and only. Crazy good songs with 80’s vibe and character!
Serban mixes never fail to translate in any system out there! And that’s folks what mixing is all about!!!
Yet they fail to make any emotional conndction with me. And that's also what it's all about!
@@mirkomarkovic3438 may I ask why? thing here is that he has around 100 billion plays to his name so he definitely makes an emotional connection with all those people. I would just like to know why he doesn't match with your emotions, would be very interesting to read :)
@@hithere4289 a LOT of those plays are of promotiona (or marketing)l nature. it's just that he sucks every last bit of life out of a recording which works well for most of that lifeless pop he's doing. but a good example would be his remixes of the bee gees stuff. the original mixes are soo good and convey everything they should and then you listen to the serban mix and it's just flat, polished and every last bit of life sucked out of it. there's zero realness about this sound. it's intention is not to annoy/upset anybody and that's just lacking in the character department.
Awesome !!! Part 2 please 🙏🏼
Make Believe/Metric Halo just dropped a plug-in version of his favorite hardware unit. He even lent presets to it. Dropped just yesterday. Check it out. It’s called Mix Head. He uses it between the two compression stages on the bus.
and then compare it to the FF Saturn 2, I prefer that.
They have already confirmed that it is 100% ITB. Like their old 33609 or vitalizer they may have stopped using that hardware
Nope hahaha
@@roberteismann1929 as someone who has used Saturn for years, hard disagree
@@johnjhonny646 John Hanes literally posted that this was the unit on GearSpace yesterday, and that the plugin has now replaced it. So you’re correct at this moment now that the plugin exists, but this hardware unit was in fact in the chain for years.
Great series Justin! Please expand on this series!
I plan to!
The original mix of Staying Alive is amazing. Of course the production and performance was just fantastic to begin with.
Yeah, for sure, the original mix still holds up beautifully!
As a modern listener, I expect to hear a touch more compression on the vocals. But otherwise, if they just did a light remaster with a touch more dynamics processing, it could have been released today today as is and it would still be a banger!
The groove is undeniable, and the whole production just works.
-Justin
It's absolutely stunning how well you did that analysis from the top tier engineers. You have eloquently described the exciting process. Thank you!
Great Video Justin!!!
Serban is the top top top mixer on top. From his quality, creativity, how he deals with balance and also is the more expensive one.
He knows what he's doing for sure! Beautifully balanced and smooth mixes while still having personality and tremendous depth and space-and they always sound great on a good, big system.
-Justin
But what about joel Wanasuk!?😂
@@PitchforkIncorporated bru I though it was a troll I read it as y'all wanna suck but turns out joel wanasuk is an actual mixer 😭😭😭😭
Amazing content! I would love to hear a Tom Helmhirst breakdown. I'm picking up the mindset to have in critical listening.
I plan to do him sometime! We have a few examples with him in the Michael Brauer one. But I hope to do a dedicate episode before long.
Well, now I know why I find some of the Weekend’s tunes grating to me, makes sense now. Serban’s mixes are phenomenal and so mature and ‘grown up’, if that’s a good way of describing it. Thanks for this, explains a lot. Also, I’ve been at the opposite end of his mixes, mixing FOH for a couple of artists on a tour cycle for albums he’s mixed. It’s a great study, but man is it ever HARD to explain to an artist or their manager why I can’t get them to sound like these records in a live setting. It’s def getting easier with IEM monitoring and other on-stage improvements, but early/mid 2000’s was really stressful for FOH engineers LOL.
Thanks for sharing your take! Interesting to hear.
-Justin
I think you could easily do a part 2 on Serban 😅😅
Definitely. I could have gone two or three hours easily!
-Justin
I think the first comparison is very interesting but at the same time After Hours is such a producers mix in the best way possible. Ilangilo nailed the feel of that song even if it sacrificed some technical polish.
Serben's "Stayin' Alive".....so much more alive~Way back when I carried an actual hardware EMT 250 on the road, believe it or not.
It was the only digital reverb I could reasonably rent, pre rack mount digital. It came in a very nice road case and sounded great.
Nice! Well done Justin on the excellent analysis and tips.
when you first played the manny mix, I though wow manny is the goat. soo exting mix! excitement and the song feeling good is always more important than width/depth etc IMO. would be cool to see a video about him. Serban did some pretty cool mixes on Golden hour kacey Musgraves, which you can hear the contrast between the other mixes and serbans.
Serving the song is the most important thing for sure! Manny is definitely great at getting the point of the song, and is unafraid of pushing things.
From a raw sonic perspective, I think that on smaller speakers, Manny's mixes sometimes work better and sound more exciting. But on really nice big speakers, Serban's will often sound a bit more "impressive" and hi-fi.
(One contrary example is Manny's "Thunder" mix which sounds absolutely enormous and smooth on a good big system. Very Serban-like.)
Tradeoffs!
They can both be good approaches.
-Justin
This is extremely valuable thank you
Glad to be of service!
-Justin
crazy video!! Thank u so much!!
Subtract from my exagerating poetics to follow but sounds like Serban uses more volume micro riding in all the right places and bar accents, in a very neo-LCR kind of mix (and retains low volume stuff at the same low volume while shooting quite louder ones, using constrast and the reverb ceiling to subliminally hold the loud (albeit scooped in the verb bus feed) transients tail thus keeping overall limiting *apparently* still but in a "space" you now *perceive* as more silent and still - and so the quiet stuff *seems to sit louder amid tons of space because of said tail, albeit actually remaining still contrast'ingly quiet) and the EQ unmasking stuff sounds quite wrestless albeit very smooth, but giving it a kind of multiband dinamics overproduced polish and surreal ethereal velvety something... Which I might be imagining since he uses old plugins (feels like something out of a TC 6000 or 96k), but could be the mastering....
That, and my whisky, so take it with a pinch of God Particle...
Excelent video!
And by the way, mixing into limiters enough to keep the mastering engineer from stealing that nice drum thump strenght you worked so hard at, is often wise...
Illangelo has much more top end and upper low-mids are louder than Serban's mix. Serban's mix is balanced perfectly. Serban's different mixes compare like a baxandall eq is being used to balance lows, mids and top end. Serban's version of Stayin' Alive sounds more transparent. The instruments all have their own place in the spectrum and stereofield. Everything is sculpted around the vocals.
the comparison between the old stayin alive mix and serbans one is extremely impressive to me
I'm starting to believe this man serban is jesus himself in disguise at this point damn dude can do no wrong lmao
@@pradeeppandey1978 😂😂😂
Hey Justin! You gotta check out Metric Halo Mixhead it’s what Serban uses on his mixbus he even created a preset for it so he stamped it when you choose his preset the plugin turns gold just like how it sounds!
Looks neat! Tell them to book a livestream in the channel and we can do a deep dive on it together :-)
I love their Sontec EQ!
-Justin
You would most likely want to talk to my buddy Rick at Make believe studios. He’s behind these plugins and the idea of it.
Tell him to email me if it's of interest! Would love to look at his stuff on the channel!
-Justin
Makes me curious about monitoring and how Serban’s monitoring may differ from these others. Hearing the difference between Serban’s mix and Manny’s feels almost similar to the difference I’ve experienced in my own mixes through changes in monitoring. Perhaps Mannys monitoring has more sub in it which would cause his mixes to come out more midrangey since like youve mentioned before, our mixes are the inverse of our monitoring frequency curve.
Most of Serban's work is done on ProAcs without the sub engaged...
I know guys here in Poland mixing on ProAcs their entire life (even fully analog on a desk) and their mixes sound very mediocre at best so it's definitely not only about his monitoring.. But how he hears music, his taste and his skill.
@@huberttorzewski Yeah, I'm definitely not attributing his quality just to his monitoring but it definitely tracks that he would be mixing on near fields without a sub and that confirms my suspicion. Mixing with a sub will alot of times lead to a more mid range forward mix, in my experience.
@@CadeRoberts I tend to shift the lows higher in the range when I mix on NS10s, so there's more like 80-120Hz than 30-60Hz. But on Eve Audios I tend to do the opposite having more "hifi" sounding mix. So nowadays I combined the both and mix first on NS10s and do some minor corrections on Eves to polish it more. The other way around is also ok but I need to mix very loud to achieve a good mix on Eves while on NS10s I can mix more quietly and the result is great
It seems to me that Serban's low end comes from the way he uses the filters, and then uses a low end bell curve. You can visualize the spectrum when doing EQ moves with the Metric Halo Channel Strip, and I feel that on the top end, he is also filtering that, and then pushing it. I also think he EQ's after compression, and not into it. So in summation, I think he is doing a lot of filtering then boosting, and tasteful compression with the mio compressor on the metric halo channel. All the good saturation and whatnot, I feel might be caught at the recording stage, and Serban is really trying to bring out the nice details in the sound, and then getting rid of what might be unnecessary frequencies on each instrument through aggressive filtering. But that's my opinion is all. I don't really know how he does it outside of what John Hanes spilled in his Gearspace interview.
Filtering while boosting… so he’s boosting lets say 10k and then using an LPF to roll off?
@@Skkyyyyyyyyyyy Yeah, Pultec style.
this video is enlightenment for engineers! :) great content!!!
Glad you liked it!
-Justin
What a great f ing video. That high end comparison is crazy to me how (no offense to the other guys) they just aren’t on that level.
Great video!
TLA analysis in the near future? Hoping!
I have him on the list for sure.
True that Serban might not USUALLY mix hats that louds as your saying at 11:12 ... but listen to "Break up with your girlfriend, i'm bored" lol. Those two songs you were comparing were essentially very different in production and style which of course is a huge reason why the hats are different. You can't do those types of hats in a synthwave genre really. Plus at the end of the day the decision to push certain things like in the Ariana grande song, come down to Producer notes also. It's very possible Serban was told to not touch that level.... but the fact it's a Max Martin and Ilya production makes that decision even weirder to me hah. But yeh fun stuff!
Serban’s mix is one thing, and mastering is another thing.
On these comparisons, we are looking at the same mastering engineer in the same album :-)
-Justin
who is mastering the Serban mixes? Is he working with different mastering engineers or just one particular? Or is he mastering himself?
Most of the mixes we listened to today were mastered by Randy Merrill.
That’s not necessarily the only mastering engineer he when’s with, but I saw Randy’s name come up a lot.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Thx!!! Would be nice to know/hear how much of the sound is provided by the mastering process.
One day prior to the MIXHEAD plugin relase?! What a "coincidence" ;)
It actually was a complete coincidence. I only found out about the plugin in the comments of this video after it came out.
Serban is great, but I prefer the 70s version of Staylin Alive!
The original mix of Staying Alive, you can clearly hear the full flavor of the P-Bass, all that woody goodness pbassiness is there. The new mix, nada. I miss that.
All the emotion is gone...
Some time ago I listen to a playlist of Serbans mixes, and I was impressed, but then I realized that I missed something.
Depth!!! I mean, the width of his mixes are huge, and impressive, but I find no meaningfull depth. Maybe that’s genre specific, most of the songs he’s mixes are modern, shallow and superficiell songs. That suits the genre I guess!?
Compared to all of the other mixes we listened to in this session, I’d say that Serban’s had WAY more depth, especially on a good system.
That said, do they have as much front to back depth as great sounding records that aren’t mixed to hit to -6 LUFS? Probably not.
But is that the goal? I think in this style, it’s more about things being up front and grabbing you, wherever and however you may be listening. Compared to his immediate peers, Serban’s mixes generally have more depth, not less.
Agreed that a lot of the music he mixes doesn’t have that much artistic depth from my perspective. A lot of those artists are going for breadth of appeal rather than depth of appeal.
I suppose someone should!
If I’m being critical, then Imagine Dragons sometimes feels to me like a skeleton of a man all puffed up in a general’s uniform with a bazillion medals on his jacket. There’s SOMETHING there, but the dressing seems greater than the substance.
But that’s if I’m not being charitable.
If I am being charitable, then even if I’m not a fan, I have to admit that they have extremely well structured song arcs that touch on very universal themes, with incredibly skilled production and very competent performances.
If I give them an honest chance and engage with the material uncritically, they can get an honest goosebump out of me at their best due to how well the arrangements and productions work together.
On the other hand, if I’m being cynical, or I’m hit with a really cheesy moment like the big exaggerated inhale on “breathing in the chemicals” from “Radioactive”, I kind of roll my eyes and look over my shoulder, embarrassed I’m listening to them.
I can definitely understand what people like and dislike about them, and for the right demographic, I’m sure all that dramatic flair seems welcome and maybe even earnest.
Globally, I think they get “mixed” reviews, and any personal review I’d give them would probably end up being the same. That said, I can appreciate what they do well, even if I’m unlikely to listen on my own time.
-Justin
Absolutely, of course Serban has a certain depth in his mixes. You used a descriptive word, space, for what I experience when I listen to his mixes, spot on, but it's not necessarily the same as an experience of depth in a mix.
It was super interesting when I first listened through a bunch of songs by Serban, I was completely sold and thought it was among the best I've heard when it comes to mixing. Very smooth as you describe it. But after a while I got a strange feeling in my body, it felt a little claustrophobic. There was definitely something missing. It was depth! At least to my ears.
And then I put on ”classic songs” with a lot of depth, for example Woman In Chains, I felt it straight away, it was the depth of the mix that I was missing.
I picked up two songs by Serban for my own reference list for mixing. What A Man Gotta Do with the Jonas Brothers and Pendulum with Katy Perry, probably mostly because I like and listen to them. Both songs have an extreme width and are very representative of Serban's mixing I would say, but to my ears they lack depth in the mix.
Interesting what you write about Imagine Dragons. I have previously included them in my reference list, and that particular band has gone in and out of the list several times, they finally had to leave…
Thanks Justin!
YESSSSSSS
I like illangelo's mix better. Serban's mix sometimes cuts off the high-end air above 12k, making it feel less hi-fi than illangelo's. I don't know if it's a mistake that happens in the mastering stage. Sometimes mastering engineers will mess up a mix.
Serban's mix definitely has less 10k-12k than Illangelo's, but a lot of that is because Illangelo has a ton of 10-12k energy in his high hats relative to the average.
If you look at it on a frequency analyzer, the 10-12k area on Illangelo's mix pokes out above the surrounding areas. We *don't* have a visible dip from the baseline in that area on Serban's mix. But we have a visible peak in that area from baseline on Illangelo's.
Objectively, it's not that Serban's mix is lacking air compared to the average, it's that Illangelo is loading more energy into that area than average.
Granted, if you listen to Illangelo's first and establish your baseline from that, then Serban's could sound dark in that area.
But if you listen to Serban's first and establish that as the baseline, the Illangelo's could sound excessively bright in that area by comparison!
So, what's the proper baseline?
Easy: The sum average of all decent sounding music ever released.
What does that sound like?
Basically, like pink noise :-)
That's the curve to look at, more or less, if we want to be objective. When comparing things and deciding what's bright, what's dark, etc., that kind of average is what we have as a reference. (Though it probably skews a little away from true pink noise if you are filtering be genre and/or decade.)
In that context, I'd suggest that Illangelo is more bright in that area, and Serban is more balanced.
That said, your tastes may skew more in one direction or the other, and if you prefer Illangelo's approach to high end, then that's your answer! Go for that kind of mix yourself.
It's not wrong. It's just a different sound. All that comes down to preference.
I hope that makes sense.
-Justin
I agree with you
Serban sometimes low passes the verses (or vocal only) from what I've noticed analyzing his various mixes. The choruses have full range on the top end and verses are less airy. Not in every song he mixed though
I’m surprised you advocate mixing mostly for balance, I thought I remembered you talking about how that’s counterproductive and most great mixes are not the most balanced.
If the arrangement is not pink noise, the mix shouldn’t be… in my opinion. Basic balance is one thing, but averaging frequencies seems like a slippery slope into lifeless mixes.
Imagine an orchestra: different elements stand out in different compositions, despite the inherent balance of the instruments across the frequency spectrum. If you average hundreds of songs the spectrum should be fairly balanced, but a loud brass section isn’t “wrong” in a dramatic Wagner piece etc.
The original Bowie mix of the Stooges Raw Power is a great example of this. The fuzzy brightness of the guitars is what makes it sound so cool, and the remixes sound way less creative.
Interesting to think about though, I guess. There’s a place for balance, but at this level I think it’s overrated.
Justin, I'm curious as a mastering engineer what would you say is ideal for the mix engineer to leave the peak volume at if we are mixing into a limiter & getting close to how we want the record to sound before sending it off to a mastering engineer like yourself? Thank You. Go big or go home on your computer if you're going to do live streams & also have your DAW running. By the time you buy an m4 the 5 or 6 will be out, so dive in, press that buy now button... =)
If you’re using a limiter on the master bus, why are you sending it off to anyone? You’re literally, already “mastering” it yourself at that point…
🤷♂️
I have no preferences on this. My only preference is that the mix is as good as the mixer can make it!
If you have a lot of confidence with dynamics processing, then you can use it on the mix bus to your heart’s content. If it sounds good, it is good.
The best mixes I get to master are the ones that sound as close to “finished” as possible before I get them.
But if you don’t have extreme confidence with these tools, then don’t push them too hard. It’s easier to add more in mastering than to take it away.
The catch 22 is that you will only become confident by occasionally pushing them too hard :-)
Serban uses a limiter on the mix bus as well as single and and multiband compression. His mixes are known to hit as high as -6LUFS on the loudest sections before they even go to mastering.
Obviously, the mastering engineer is doing very little in these cases. But there, we are talking about skills that taken decades of mixing in the same room to obtain.
I hope that helps!
-Justin
Ok. ^
Then there’s absolutely zero reason to allow anyone else to touch it at that point. Sounds asinine to “mix it down” to a “mastered level”, but not consider it mastered.
I bet the guy is utilizing dynamics on his master bus as well. Sounds so stupid to me to involve anyone else past that point… what for
For me the Stayin Alive mix is a perfect example of the fact that Serban's style doesn't work for everything. And I say that as someone who considers him the undisputed king of modern mixing. But there's something about that very high percussion you mentioned that I actually think is very off putting and done much better in the original mix.
Edit: I realized you were talking about the stuff way in the right channel whereas I think I actually mean the center percussion/cymbals that are more up-front. Stuff on the side does sound nice.
Dig original Staying Alive mix much more. Feels more open and dynamic. Works for dance floor, where volume can be cranked if needed. Serbian’s sounds too squeezed.
There is a dimension & depth of the Bee Gee's & other 70's stuff that is unmatched!
@@VinceJackson1 big time depth!
Sweet!
I am wondering how much of the sonic difference of his mixes compared to others is achieved via mastering.
I purposefully chose comparisons where we are hearing the same mastering engineer in the same album, so in all of these cases, the difference really is the mix (as well as the song and arrangement).
-Justin
If you can wait a few weeks until WWDC Apple MAY be updating their Mac Studio to the M4. Either way, I'll be updating my rig with a Studio.
Interesting. I’m about to pull the trigger on a base Mac studio with an M2 so I can get something asap. Do you think that’s a bad idea?
-Justin
@@SonicScoop I 'd have more storage and RAM than the base, but if they do not update the Studio I'll be getting an M2 Max Studio as well. I've been very tempted to pull the trigger anyway.
Even "Thunder" has Manny's saturation/distortion in midrange 😅
Can you make one episode on Josh Gudwin also?
I’ll make note of it thanks!
No one has Serban Ghenea Secret. His Mix with the Masters will be worth 1000$
best mixer in the history
Andy Wallace is great too.
It seems as though he really takes advantage of the dimension and space
Serban amazing. Staying alive is still better untouched..! the groove is bang on. that amount of compression doesn't serve the song ..
How did you manage to pass the YT copyright police with this video?
Almost all artists allow their tracks on RUclips. They just keep the as revenue.
There are just a few exceptions that don’t allow their music to be played, such as The Eagles and The Beatles.
That said, if anything qualifies as fair use, this would. I could dispute it. But why bother?
@@SonicScoop Aah I see… Thank you for the explanation.
hey justin if you bring the engineer jason (cheese) you can bring him with the song vette motor or bring it on or next ??😊😊😊
I talked to him yesterday. He wants to do it, and he wants to bring that track as fate would have it! Still haven't nailed down a sponsor just yet, but if we can we'd love to have him on. 🤞
-Justin
@@SonicScoopI'm glad to hear that! I hope it's possible!
Stayin alive - the original still swings better, the bass has better contour and groove. Though both mixes are good, have some nice benefits. I‘d the vocals stand out with the newer mix.
Man the Illangelo mix is just head and shoulders above the Serban mix to me. Differnet song and production etc. of course, but Illangelo's work wiith the Weeknd is unrivaled. The hats are right to me, Serban's mix is flat and lifeless. He has done some great stuff though of course, and his mid range is always nicely balanced.
i just know you saw the sorcery he was doing in the MWTM segment
Haha, I just got to the second track and I prefer the Manny Marroquin mix too; I think there's something Serban does frequency wise (and with compression) that I'm not enjoying at all on some of these examples. I do like some of his mixes for Ariana Grande, perhaps because the style fits better. Cool to compare and analyse though, for sure.
You're not wrong, because there is no right or wrong with taste! :-)
With that said, for my tastes, the Serban mix sounds way better on a great big system, while the Illangelo mix sounds better and more exciting on my phone.
Some of the depth and space and details of the Serban mix are lost on a phone, tablet or laptop, while the additional midrange and upfront dryness of the percussion on the Illangelo mix sounds more exciting on my phone, and probably on other small devices as well.
Try listening in a few different environments and let me know if you hear the same thing!
Very best,
Justin
@@SonicScoop Listening on studio monitors and also tried on headphones, but I've been listening to the Weeknd / IIlangelo's work for many, many years and love it, so that might affect my taste too. I also listen to trap and stuff with similarly loud hihats; again, I can totally see how others would have a different opinion. I think it comes down to the emotive impact, for me: some of the thinner pop mixes lack richness, even if they have the extra sub extension, and I think it's probably to do with the transient processing and low-mid scooping. Totally subjective as to what's better, of course!
@@bigdawgg1994 His (Illangelo's) Joy Odyssey live streams were cool too, although mostly in a slightly different style. You should check them out if you haven't seen them.
Get a Mac Studio, you don’t need anything more. You aren’t doing anything heavy like 50 track mixes with a bunch of plugins. If it’s just streaming and mastering, the base Mac Studio or an upper end Mac mini would do just fine. Great video though!
I did get the Mac Studio. Thanks!
-Justin
show great. a question.the more i can hear worst it sounds.
Thank you so much for your work. I prefer original Staying Alive btw. New version too controlled for funk and I clearly hear distortion of -6lufs BECAUSE we compared it with original. So many records was ruined by this loudness war. Stupid capitalism.
If the insinuation is that under communism or socialism, we would all be forced to mix to -16 LUFS regardless of genre or tastes, and that there would be strict legal ramifications for anyone who put too much THD into a mix, I’ll take the capitalism, thanks 😆
The majority of the 2 bus compression and brickwall limiting comes from Serban's mixes. He sends his mixes to mastering already at a mastered level. Do the mastering engineers add more limiting/loudness? I'm sure some do. Is it needed? Probably not.
It was interesting to hear his take on a classic record (Stayin Alive), but the original is still better. He disjointed the balance of the harmonies. The drums sounded too pointy. These remixers of classic records tend to stray too far from what makes the originals great. There are very few of those Beatles remixes that are any good. A lot of them are downright ruinous. Unless you're going for a reimagining of an old record, you should put all your focus and energy into making the new mixes simply sound like beefed up versions of the originals. It should be difficult to hear the differences in the balancing between the two.
Mike Spike Stent
Comparing songs whit different styles and tonality 😢
In some cases yes, in some cases no.
Some tracks are similar in style, especially some of the imagine dragons pairs, and in at least one case we have two mixes of the exact same song and production!
In any case, I think there are a lot of common threads that can be found, even when the style of two tracks is different.
If you can hear it in that context, you can hear it anywhere.
-Justin
I’ll never understand trying to copy one’s exact moves, techniques, presets or whatever. That’s nothing but mental masturbation. Mixing is essentially a musical art-form as it is a science. Why not get creative with your own ideas n create your own style and sound?
This series is not about copying others. It’s about learning from others.
So everyone is a Serban fanboy? 😅
Get a MAC MINI M2 - 10-Core CPU
16-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
Thanks! I went with a Mac studio just to be safe.
I hate the way he mixes rock music. It makes it sound like the master is coming from the radio it's so compressed.
really Demons sounds BAD
I don't understand how Illangelo managed to mix a whole weeknd song. I'm also pretty sure he wasn't in charge of the vocals. His own album sound mediocre AT BEST, and in his tutorials on RUclips, most of the time he can't explain why he's doing what he's doing, because it's mostly guesswork or he's using processing chains that he got from other legit engineers. Debunking him as a "great producer" or mixer is one of my goals 😂😂
He just happened to be at the right time in the company of great talent and great professionals, but his mixing skills are atrocious. He is a musician, he is quite passionate, and he can bring a vibe to a song. But his technical skills and knowledge are extremely overrated. Please listen to his own albums, change my mind. Șerban is a legend.
Same as Justin haha. 🤘
To be charitable, I think Illangelo seems like a creative person and has had some great successes in his work! So kudos to him.
That said, I’d agree that his mixes don’t feel nearly as refined as Serban’s…
…but then again that’s a pretty tall order!
Serban has also had decades longer to get good at it, so that helps too :-)
To be fair, Serban hasn’t *produced* anywhere near the number of successful tracks as Illangelo.
Generally speaking, specialists will outperform non-specialists in their area of specialization. And Serban is one of the best specialists there is for his niche.
There’s something to be said for generalists too though: They make their own kinds of contributions, often crossing territories that need to be crossed and blurring lines that have become too fixed and rigid.
In his defense, sometimes people who get good results can’t explain what they’re doing, because explanation isn’t their skill, and sometimes making it up as you go is the best thing to do in the moment.
I haven’t listened to his album or much of his other work outside of what’s on this playlist, so I can’t comment further than that!
But I appreciate the comment and the passion. Thanks for swinging by!
-Justin
It isn't just guesswork. People saying he got to his position by only 'raw luck' is hilarious when he jumpstarted The Weeknd's career with his production on his first three mixtapes that eventually became Trilogy. He is also a classically trained pianist who produced Alicia Keys, Post Malone, etc. Illangelo is a creative mixer who loves to break rules since he is coming from an electronica background. When The Weeknd was working with other producers in the beginning, his music never came close to Trilogy and the mixtapes. His mixing skills are so "atrocious" that he produced and mixed many hits like The Hills that has over a billion views, and many fans consider the songs with Illangelo to be the best. It's more impressive when you realize the limited recourses he had access to at the beginning of his career. If only I could luck out and become a multi platinum, Grammy winning producer/mixer.
@@ghostxx9662 I've never seen anybody criticize Illangelo, that's why I'm doing it. I came to my conclusion after watching one of his Mix with the Masters (i think), and thought highly of him before that. But he could not explain his processing chains, he was even surprised some plugins were there. I am convinced he is taking credit for other people's work (in his own ableton projects).
He could easily explain how he came up with ambiental textures and effects, but COULD NOT REMEMBER HOW HE PROCESSED THE VOCALS, wich, is safe to say, is where most of Weeknd's magic resides. I am convinced that today, he would be nowhere without Abel. Illangelo's albums speak for themselves.
Illangelo is the ONLY person in the industry towards whom I have this kind of opinion. I don't care how good or smart a producer/mixer is, I usually only care about what comes out of the speakers. But Illangello is pretty much an imposter. I don't appreciate liars. And he sells courses...
It's how he's so confident and full of himself without doing the work, that's what bugs me.
Sorry for being so negative, I just think people could learn way more from people who know what they're talking about.
@@ghostxx9662 Illangelo produced and mixed pretty much all of Echoes of Silence and most of Thursday alone, honestly he could've retired after that and he'd still be a legend of modern R&B / pop... these commenters are absurd... He talks about working in a flow state and not over thinking things consciously sometimes, which is a great tip, and these guys don't even realise the quality of advice they're getting. Talking about "debunking" and being "charitable" to someone who made some of the most successful and influential music of the last 20 years... smh I'm done haha
@Octwavian Illangelo's philosophy is not to overcomplicate things and optimize workflow and being in a flow-state. Which Illangelo Mix With The Masters session did you see? He does explain things, especially his love of automating everything and from Antares AutoTune's retune speed to the creative use of Ableton's track delay compensation. All of his projects he shows have his own style and characteristics. I love Illangelo's personal work. It isn't mainstream electronic music, though. I'm sure he could sign a deal and produce more mainstream sounding electronic music easily. "He's nothing without Abel," yet he mixed and produced a song with Post Malone that has an unofficial lyric video with 249 million views on youtube. He also helped produce Crew Love with Noah '40' Shebib, carrying his electronic influence and sound design in his production. The Weeknd worked with T-Minus and other producers before he met Illangelo, and none of them really hit like the things he made with illangelo and Doc Mckinney. His production influenced R&B heavily. I'm sure he can give a 1-hour masterclass's on the extremely technical aspects of plugins, and his mixing philosophy really goes into detail that wouldn't fit the Mix With The Masters format.
I really like Serban's production, but I'm rather underwhelmed by how predictable and pedestrian most of the songs are, both sonically and from a songwriting point of view.
I’m not going to argue. He’s a master of his craft. But I don’t think I am in the target demographics for the average production that Serban mixes.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Me neither! I grew up on Kate Bush, Bjork, Abba and Blondie, lol! The Weekend's 'Blinding Light' sounds exactly like Ah-ha!!!!
The irony of the lip sync being slightly off on an audio channel is not lost on me
That’s not lip sync being off, that’s the video lagging from the computer choking out for the first 23 seconds of the livestream due to too many programs running at once.
Should have a new streaming computer in the next couple weeks which will make that less likely.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Even further irony that the guy on the video can't tell that the lip sync looks unnatural for the entire video.
It's possible there could have been some additional video delay the whole stream today. Computer was acting buggy. I don't know, I haven't watched it back yet.
But who WATCHES RUclips videos anyway? They're for listening! Preferably at 2X speed. (Except for the audio examples) 😃
Anyway, computer upgrade should free up some bandwidth I think. I hope so anyway. I'm a mastering guy, not a video guy.
-Justin
It’s not the mixing, it’s the music production..but of course no one really understands this on RUclips.
All of the earlier parts of the production process are way more important than mixing, yes.
BUT, with that said, in this video we listen to many instances of two different mixers on the same album with the same producer, the same artist, and the same mastering engineer…
…And the aesthetic of the mix is quite quite different in each case!
So it clearly also matters as well :-)
-Justin
Of course mixing is the part of music production, very important part. But the writing of the song, arrangement, recording using great, well-tuned instruments, good players, good sounding rooms and mics + mic placements etc. is equally important. The thing is - everything is important. If you miss one part (either quality recording, quality mixing, quality samples or instruments, good writing etc.) you lose the quality of the final product significantly. Bad mixing can ruin the record as much as bad choice of samples, bad tuning of the instruments, sloppy playing and singing without emotion, bad mic choices and placements etc. Everything's connected. Nothing is less or more important than something else. Maybe the least important is mastering but if your mastering is bad it can also ruin the record. It needs to be at least good/very good.
@@huberttorzewski there is a hierarchy of importance. Your failure to understand that will prevent you from succeeding.
@@tordy4963 of course some things are more important than others but everything is really important at the end of the day.
Serban is cutting out frequencies more than boosting and compressing specific instruments. His secret is how well he uses compressors, EQs, limiters, and SATURATION.
Which instrument or vocal gets what depends on how it’s playing through the ProAcs and Genetec speakers.🫶🏾👽