BBC 1 Debate - Capitalism & Christianity - The Big Questions
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2013
- BBC 1 The Big Questions
6th January 2013
Nicky Campbell presents The Big Questions from the Harris Academy in Peckham, south London. He asks: Is the Pope right to condemn capitalism?; And can the Holy Spirit move you?
Amongst those taking part are Jonathan Bartley from Ekkelsia; the Reform Rabbi, Laura Janner-Klausner; Abihjit Pandya from the LSE; the businesswoman, Christine Brown-Quinn; Charles Foster, medical law barrister; the geneticist, Aarathi Prasad; the former Lib-Dem MP, Dr Evan Harris; Dr Trevor Stammers, medical and bioethicist from St Mary's University College, London; Natalie Drew from the Gay Family Web Fertility Centre; Pastor Clement Okusi from Potters House Pentecostal Church; Michelle Moran from Catholic Charismatic Renewal; Jeremy Carrette, author of Selling Spirituality: The Silent Takeover of Religion; and Abdullah Al Andalusi from Muslim Debate Initiative
![Francesca Stavrakopoulou | The Weekly [EXTENDED INTERVIEW]](/img/1.gif)
28:40 "He healed an amputee & his leg grew"......religion warps the mind, clearly.
I swear to god
Wtf am I watching? This second discussion about the holy spirit is such a load of bollocks lol
Lol Bot The Bible says the natural(sinful) man cannot receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Only born again Christians can because they're born of the Holy Spirit by Christ abiding in them
See how humanists sit quietly and listen when religious people talk, while the religious people constantly disrupt when humanists make a point. It clearly demonstrates insecurity in religious people. I can't believe they let that preacher get away by saying that praying makes amputated limbs grow back. DISHONESTY at its best!
Really? RUclips especially is littered with anti-religious posts by atheists.
You can find any video on youtube that has nothing to do with religion or politics, it could be a music video and you will find the usual atheists bashing on religion.
I'm afraid this point is way off.
egyptian420 Does prayer make amputated limbs grow back?
aqabdulaziz
This is an utterly ridiculous and absurd deviation from our topic
egyptian420 I really don't think the comparison between commentators on youtube and people participating in a live debate on television is a very accurate one.
What do you means by humanist ? do you think religious people are not human ?
To the first guy who spoke: any empathy and compassion?
oh yes he grew a new leg as i said these fools are insane....
On god no pun
"It is Corporatism NOT Capitalism" There's no contradiction between corporatism and capitalism.
"the pope uses twitter, right?"
That woman knows how to make a strong case for the transparency of capitalism
This aged like milk
“...and his arm grew back.” That made my day.
You heard it here first guys - "The whole spirit came upon the virgin"
Dirty Holy Spirit.
Watch your mouth dnt seal your own death warrant blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
As indicated by the bible
The middle section is not included in the upload, anyone know why or have a link to the original? I'm talking about the bit with Aarathi Prasad
Thanks
Thanks.
Yes, that may indeed be a factor. What exactly is your infallible strategem?
This debate is basically selfish pricks vs normal people
I do?
If you don't mind my asking. You mention how you search for one who can cook, who can clean etc. Would such chores would be a shared burden, or specifically the realm of your potential suitor?
OMG their descriptions are soooo vaaauge! "I wanna move from this language of feeling." loool i bet you do :D
Islamic "economic" "system" is the one without interest rate right?
The first guy is making the argument that you should be greedy and selfish, that you should only do good if there is something in it for you. Christianity isn’t pro capitalism, it’s envy and greed at its best.
True, he seems like a scumbag.
I'm sorry...I think I might be going mad. I heard one of them saying "We prayed and an amputee's leg grew back". Please someone tell me they heard it too??? I'm worried it's only my mind playing nasty tricks on me. :-(
So...whenever you hear a statement that flagrantly defies logic. It inspires you to frantically share your dating requirements? Wonderful!
Thank you. Your madness has greatly helped to melt my misanthropy for the day.
Government regulators and corporations are in bed to work for each other. It has nothing to do with free market Capitalism.
We are inserious trouble since free market Capitalism started disappearing.
@@wa57s577 Time to get rid of government.
@@wa57s577 Of course, it shows, if do not wake up, this is how the ultimate failure of government will look like.
@@wa57s577 Absolutely.
Sorry, I didn't know I had to make them overtly explicit. The point is, by communicating temporarily with a fiction doesn't necessarily render said fiction 'real' for you.
Atheïsm is a binary business. Either you are an atheïst, or you're not. And communicating with a fictitious entity is an oxymoron.
Thank you, darling! All the best for you too!
why are they talking as if "wealth" and "money" are actually real things and not symbolic concepts?
A bit late. But because many can't grasp that Money is just there so that you don't have to go around trying to find someone willing to trade your bread for anything else. It's just a means for a easier barter system more or less originally.
DON'T KEEP AND SET YOUR AIM TO "GO THRU LIFE"; BUT SET IT TO "grow through life".
Posh bald guy in suit is revolting. He and that supposedly Christian woman next to him think that some people are lesser and basically deserve to be poor, it’s there own fault for not trying hard enough. They are completely missing the truth which is that nobody gets to be a multi-billionaire without exploiting other people.
That first debate should be done again. But next time give it an hour. And define what separates capitalism and other economic models.
The question was 'Is the Pope right to condemn capitalism?' The Pope is a Christian. Jesus did not command His followers to become "prosperous and wealthy." He did not teach them to store up riches. He did not teach them to give a pittance to charity out of their abundance. He said that the rich would not be saved. He taught that they have had their reward in this life. He taught that He came to preach the Gospel to the poor. He taught His followers to sell everything they had and distribute the wealth to the needy. The answer to the question is obvious. The Pope was right, as a Christian leader, to condemn capitalism.
Jesus urged his followers to give to the needy, indeed. And every Christian should be giving 10% of their wealth out their own desire. This proves to God that they are truly benevolent and compassionate because they could have kept their own money but they CHOSE to give to the needy.
That is a huge distinction. You do not show any benevolence or compassion when the state forcefully takes your money through coercion.
Jesus did not ask for his followers to set up a state that forcefully takes more and more of what you earn, but rather that you donate your money to the needy out of your own kindness and goodhearted nature.
Furthermore, it is immoral to covet your neighbour's wealth. This is one of the primary fundamental principles of socialism and the creed of people like Karl Marx, Che Guevaro...etc. These people despised others who had more wealth and wanted to create a state that uses power and coercion to take from them what they have legally earned, and give it to them. That is sin.
There is a blatant hatred and contempt of the wealthy in the heart of socialism/communism.
egyptian420 Try reading the Bible before you talk about what Jesus taught, goofball.
egyptian420 Christianity = communism
cruelsuit1
That's utterly insane and absurd. Perhaps you should actually read the Bible.
Name me on communist regime that Jesus would approve of....I'll wait.
egyptian420 Read the beginning of Acts. Christianity = communism.
The guy just said the leg grew and all she wants to know is what he meant by fire?! She sure was top of her class!
I NEVER thought I would agree with the pope. I guess miracles do happen!
I don't mean this in disrespect but do you know the meaning if intrinsic value?
We can count it, we can hold it, when it's all gone, it is 0.
With paper money ( what we have today ) you have $100 in your hand, I print more, the value of your money is going down, so it's not worth 100 anymore.
You can't print Gold, and it's been used for over 6000 years as money ( so that answers on if we would all consider it money or not )
Most of us, I am sure you included, have come from a religious background so I think we can all understand why a good percentage of those deists are as they are.
lol ;-) same here! I'd like to add you too, but I only know about the subscribe feature, I don't think you can add people as friends on youtube. :-(
Lol if Jesus is sinless because he didn't descend from Adams nature then where did Mary come from? Isn't she meant to be human who descended from Adam and gave BIRTH to JESUS?!?!
haha ikr! She is "the mother of God" how can she be sinfull??
teenager humor she is not the mother of God, she's the mother of Jesus, God has no mother (nor father)
Isn't Jesus god in bible though? The father, the son and the holy ghost? Christ died for our sins as (John 10:30) god’s Son (John 3:16) and god Himself-God in human flesh (Colossians 2:9) and all that bunk.
Finally someone who understands me. :-) My strategy is to post my requirements on social media sites, until I live in a mansion near the sea with husband, children, dog, swimming pool and Mazda!
Forget about having either or solutions, it's not about Hayek or Keynes, you need aspects of both sides of any duality to make a fully functioning economy.
Let me add:
In A Free Market, there would be no govt. involvement, which would put all risk onto the bank/lender which in turn creates a "moral" ground on what to do and not to do.
When the government tells you "Don't worry, we'll bail you out if you screw up" you get what happened from what concluded/began in 2008.
Phew. Never was the importance of first defining your terms illustrated so well. Everybody has their own definition of what 'capitalism' is.
John Ralston Saul defined it as something like "controlling the means of production and reinvesting the extra wealth generated back into the system".
Maybe a lot of these people are actually arguing against 'globalization' or financial speculation?
lol, that is why I mentioned that it has been used for x amount of years, and it's been the most used as a source for money amongst people and nations.
Your going a little deeper into "what we believe to be only because we accept it to be" when it doesn't need to go there.
As for Corporatism & Capitalism, I didn't mention it for that reason, I mentioned it to show what has been, and what it is called "exactly", people just say it's Capitalism and it isn't right...
"My understanding of the virgin birth is that the holy spirit came upon the virgin." Fnarf fnarf!
The first guy is totally lost.
I'm a Christian and i don't condemn capitalism. But i condemn socialist and communist ☭
I'm not saying, as you seem to think, that paradoxes can't exist in a way whereby both notions are as 'true' as each other; but to accept that Christian egalitarianism and capitalism can exist simultaneously, as the 'same' political system, is simply absurd - and no amount of references to biblical paradoxes can render this notion any less fallacious.
Capitalism is by far the best model for you if you possess certain skills or you're providing a service that society really benefits from. If you don't possess these things, then it can screw you over.
Yea. But even those who are almost worthless in every way can contribute and get paid under capitalism. Under many other systems they would be thrown of a cliff or into Prison just so that they don't litter the street by being homeless.
christianty arguing against capitalism is the equivalent to Dressage riders arguing against Equestrian show jumpers, as they both ride horses. Meaning that christians arguing against capitalism is identical to christians arguing against christianty(which is a well organized capitalist business).
Katalyzt
The twerp who spoke first is either playing devil's advocate or needs to be looking for a refund on his education.
He seems like a stuck up twat.
Try listening to debates about biblical matters as thought they were debates in critical literary theory. I find them much easier to understand that way.
Socialist here.
IQ and education positively correlates with liberal/socialist viewpoints. Now what is it that I don't believe in that I'm not smart enough to know? (Weird claim btw)
aww good for you and her! :-) Strangely, I have no applicants so far, but I shall not be discouraged, because my strategy is infallible. I suspect the NSA are stopping the replies.
People travelled a lot in the old days, more for trade than for preaching. They must have spoken each other's languages. Jesus himself went east incognito and was not recognized by Thomas until he revealed himself.
Yes, I'd definitely agree with you here. I think this issue of reading the Bible literally is most probably a cultural issue - I don't want to make any presuppositions but it seems to me that it's primarily the African cultures that veer toward a more literal reading of the Bible; and as we know, African countries struggle with providing substantial literacy education. It's more so in Europe that you find sensible Christian communities that read the Bible as though it were metaphorical.
I just saw that blog, it is like the video you asked me to look at "Money as Debt" how Banking is done.
As for Money Devaluing because of lack of trust, kind of, but it can go either way.
Sure there has to be trust, this was always the case, not just today, but also that the money being used retains it's value.
The Dollar for example only survives because we pegged many currencies to it in the 70's, tricking basically the world.
But it's time will come...
Creating a system where my well-being is predicated on my choices and knowledge or education is scary. I'm totally fucked under a system like that.
"But that's assuming that capital can grow without investment." No, you can loan money, which is basically creating money out of thin air. Watch "money as debt".
advertising tells one that he is better than the other
"An atheist can ask the Creator for something" No, he can't since he would no longer be an atheïst then. For someone saying that the western world is not developed, you seem to have a poor sense of logic.
Bahahaha the "capitalist feminist" lady: "Capitalism is not about profit"
The other lady sitting opposite: "So if you are making bread to sell, you don't expect profitting from it?
FC lady: "Capitalism is not about profit, it's about the bread!"
The lady opposite: "No, the bread is the production"
In summary, the lady called to defend capitalism does not know what capitalism is.
You couldn't make this shit up!
😂
Okay, well, I am.
It still involves state and money. To get rid of corruption, humanity should abolish money alltogether.
Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed NOT answering any question?
You can not deny that consumption is negatively affecting us as people (dont argue by saying "well what would we do without the wealth is bring us" or something similar).....pardon the spelling errors, I have to go work for a medical company that is in the business of keeping people sick....yea Im guilty too.
(2) I do understand why deists are often inclined to deny even the most elementary scientific facts, considering the empirical sciences have a tendency to impose a universal and reductionistic set of assertions onto the life-world.
Of course they don't.
You must believe the structure of a belief to be incredibly tenuous if you think that someone experiencing a moment of hysteria, asking God to love/help/forgive them, suddenly becomes a theist.
huh?
Are you saying that it would be hypocritical for Christian people or Christian institutions to criticise capitalism?; because there is quite a big distinction between the former and the latter.
So god gives you his liquid love huh, think I'll pass.
yeah, my gf prefers my liquid love instead
I've witnessed "speaking in tongues" before. They literally just make it up as they go. And they are doing it on purpose, because they believe they are supposed to do it as a sign of devotion. They convince themselves that it is special and meaningful and they know deep down they are doing it on purpose, but they know that all they have to do is SAY it's not on purpose because no one can prove it otherwise. They trick themselves into thinking its not just gibberish, when it really is.
@Peter Marsh Oh, knock it off. God never existed. Deal with it.
They should rename 'The Big Questions ' ' Religious Fruitcakes Debate'.
Hello freudvsmickeymouse,
The rough definition of capitalism is "an economic system based on the private ownership of capital goods and the means of production, with the creation of goods and services for profit." - Wikipedia
That describes christianity perfectly. The only difference that I can see is that christianity claims to offer "services" but does not; while still collecting a huge profit. See catholicism(the poster child of christianity) for proof/verification of this. ;O)
Katalyzt
They really did have the worst people possible to argue against Capitalism. The two sides are arguing completely separate lines of thought, and it makes the argument against seem dimwitted. They should have had economists and both sides of the spectrum debate this matter.
I think the pro-capitalism side provided poor arguments that can be effortlessly refuted.
Money isn't the problem, it's the "type" of money we use that is ( Fiat Currency )
In the Islamic Economic system, it would be like that of the Free Market system in that, money would be Gold & Silver ( Silver also if Im not mistaken but certainly Gold ) so it has intrinsic value as oppose to what we have today, paper, that gets manipulated ( Inflation and deflation )
If you had no physical money at all, then you either have digital ( cards ) or to barter.
23:30
Nope. The holy spirt is, and always has been nothing more that a feeling.
She is a head person 😆
We have reached a stage where we can bail out the banks but not for those struggling people.That is a point.
The problem is that if the banks fail and it's not insured. A lot more than just the banks go under. Many millions of people lose all their money and become homeless over night. This is why many countries bail out their banks. Heck this is why some countries state own the bank.
"In the real world, no one holds their wealth and sits on it like a scrooge, counting away their riches, like a cartoon. People re-invest, build, spend, buy, etc."
Yes, since that is one of the most important things to keep up the value related sentiments. If people start "scroogeïng", money devaluates because of a lack uf "trust" and certainty. Economy nowadays is all about trust.
Haha bullshit, they are greedy selfish pricks
Selfishness is good.
But communism is essentially Christian egalitarianism, which is the absolute antithesis of capitalism. Your premise here is ultimately paradoxical - capitalism can't function without privatisation because industries need to be private in order to accumulate a continuous amount of capital; privatisation runs counter to social welfare, and therefore, cannot bring about Christian egalitarianism.
Coffee shop owner will not be able to make any money and keep it to himself unless his coffee is good enough to be sold.
That's because they aren't honest about the fact that their is no real justification for their beliefs or their own ignorance of the facts.
Capitalism and religion are separate issues
What are you talking about? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't - what's pretentious about that observation? And well done for addressing so many of the points I made in my response to your profound 'logic'. You really argued those points well, didn't you?
I literally clicked on to this video to say something similar.
this brotha is smokin some serious isht! "the fire of the holy ghost", Really,really?
When you are sincerely born again you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Tongues were actual foreign languages not learned. Emotions are dangerous, they give people what they want not necessarily what GOD wants. God wants his believers to want what HE wants. Then HE gives you what you need.
I meant trillion, my apologies. Simple cost benefit analysis dismantled the oil argument in about 2006. I'm not saying I support the war by any means, but to suggest that a 2.4 trillion dollar war is to gain control of Iraqi oil is asinine. 2.4 trillion dollars is a conservative estimate though, as some put it as high as 3.2, and some say by 2050 it will be 6.
But that's assuming that capital can grow without investment.
In the real world, no one holds their wealth and sits on it like a scrooge, counting away their riches, like a cartoon. People re-invest, build, spend, buy, etc.
That is how it circulates. Even the most of corrupt spend their wealth, so again, it would always be in circulation, so there's nothing to worry about.
And by the way, it is the most "human" to the poor, when they can hold their earnings, and it be stable.
You don't make the poor rich, by making the rich poor.
Speaking in tongues is a heaven language that is the holy ghost
And I love how those people on the left hand side (wonder whether that was intentional?) assume they live in a society in which capitalism is entirely unregulated. These central economic planners think they can second guess the market despite over a century of CEP's failure which is manifested in corporatism. Supply and demand will always find a way, it is self-regulating, and these meddlers only pervert the eventuality of prosperity of capitalism. The freer the market, the freer the people!
I'm not from a religious background.
Lets do like this: All religious people, go to ur house of worship when ur ill!
what's funny about it is that christianity is a captialist system.
How is that a laughing matter? Do you have no respect? Laugh all you would like, but that was a life changing even for the person who it happen too. Thats nothing, i've seen people who have been blind their whole lives start screaming as they gain it back. No matter what the miracle, to merely push it off because you don't believe it can happen is so arrogant and in considerate of people who have been blessed with a miracle.
I wouldn't say primarily in African culture, because it's not really true. It can happen in any culture, it happens in America, India, most of the Middle East still does. I admire that about Europe, Especially in many of the Scandinavian countries where religion has all but become a folk tale that is more a source of entertainment than enlightenment.
17:33, she ROASTED everyone!
No lol. But I've been happily in a relationship with my girlfriend for almost five years now.
How are you faring in your quest for such a gent?
entertainment at its best when different religions and sects clash with one and another.like the Jewish lady confronting evangelical and Pentecostal preachers.all of them shooting themselves in the foot on national tv.you just cannot get better pr for humanism,secularism and atheism!thank you jewish lady!!
I gave my girl a shot of liquid love the other night and she was speaking in tongues before that
Is capitalism a state system that caters to the gifted, particularly the entrepreneurially gifted? If it is, it helps me understand that capitalism advocates are not for poverty but for accruing wealth for the betterment of some social or individual goal, with poverty being a sad reality. Poverty is a result of folks who don't have the thinking to be able to accrue wealth. Hmm.
And weirdly, the wealthy don't see themselves as seeking to impoverish but advance their particular circumstances. Here, I can see why poverty is seen as a choice. It's because folks who will actually advance are going to engage in entrepreneurial behaviors that happen to advance them economically.
To advance economically is to be entrepreneurially gifted.
The only reason in the bible given for going out to work is so that you can give to the poor. Of course there are other reasons but this one is spoken about in the bible so must be important to God.
Min 9:50 I cannot understand HOW on earth could someone say capitalism is about providing and not profit! Is it ignorance or just manipulation of concepts? Is capitalism was about providing then WHY don't all profit returns to the people where they are created? Please don't insult intelligence!