The lack of "meat" because of so much stuff being compressed, and we having to do some "gap filling" with our brain, really reminds me of Arcane. Like, of course Powder and Ekko are childhood friends, despite them never sharing a screen pre time skip.
To be honest, the flashback during a fight scene did the best job it could with them. It's actually surprising how effectively they crammed so much story into a 2 minute fight scene.
Doubt that. Her recent interview with Cartoon Brew confirms it was Amazon and A24 who set the 8 episodes in place (not knowing if another season was gonna be produced) But if you wanna go back further, leaks showing an old pitch bibles shows that 9 episodes were shown, along with 9 comic issues. (Although looking it, you can tell the bible was produced way before Helluva Boss became a thing)
@fredrogers4717 You doubt that Viv wanted 22 episodes or that she had to settle for 8? Your comment makes it sound like the latter, but I'm not sure.
@@crazy13alex I mean, might sound strange and confusing when I say this, but none of us technically know how many episodes she wanted for Hazbin, hence my original comment (unless of course you yourself were able to find the source of OP’s claim)
I saw someone say once that Saint Peter gives off the vibe of a youth pastor who's trying way too hard to be "hip with the kids," and I haven't been able to get that idea out of my head ever since.
Emily is very under explored, but how she immediately rejects the extermination and calls everyone out on the hypocrisy of it is still very satisfying. And of course both her and Charlie reprise of “Hell is Forever” is powerful
Angel Dust has this particular trait that it's always been there, featured right in front of us, but with this episode, it does become something evident: Angel is really protective, especially of those that he cares about. Whether is shoving Cherry Bomb out of the way from Sir Pentious's attack in the pilot, trying to protect the hotel from the Vee’s spying plan, saving Pen from territorial war and drag him back home, pushing Charlie away from Valentino’s malicious intentions, saving Niffty from a piece of debris when the hotel it's attacked and taking her knife early in the episode, or watching out for her once again from the new environment and Valentino. Unfortunately, a good portion of those occasions (and the most highlighted ones) usually come at the expense of Angel’s own safety. Knowing him, it wouldn’t be surprising to think that Angel might not still see himself as truly worth protecting and his fierce motivation to stand up to Val mainly comes from prioritizing Niffty and pushing some adrenaline in the intent to grasp for freedom after trying to express his tiredness earlier. This is my interpretation, to me it seems that he is more scared for his friends than for what it could happen to himself. I appreciate how at least this takes place months later, outside the studio, in a public space and surrounded by his support network. But yes, it is unfortunate but the pacing it is for sure fast U-U In a very recent interview, Viv mentioned that her original plan for this first season were 22 episodes.
That's what gives me some reassurance on handling Angel's character development going forward, knowing we're getting a 2nd season. Healing isn't linear. Angel was able to put his own trauma aside out of desperation to protect nifty from Val and in that adrenaline rush had it in him to tell Val off. In the moment it's worth suffering for it later but once Val puts him through more abuse in the studio there's potential that angel would backslide in his recovery Also assuming what was developed in concept about his backstory in life stays canon and that it will be explored in season 2, he's still got a lot of trauma to work through. He's still under Val's contract as well, so there's room for it to be the case that he didn't just miraculously find his autonomy, considering Val still has control over him. He was just able to put that aside, prioritizing Nifty
Yesss I am not the only one who noticed! Like Angel might look like a damsel in distress but he is a protector at heart and I love seeing him try his best to protect everyone. Even the egg boys
1:14:44 Vaggie dumped her uniform and spear in the scene when Charlie found her. She's never seen an exorcist out of said uniform, so Vaggie would look like a sinner who just barely survived a run-in with one. If Adam and Lute are the first angels Charlie has ever talked to, then what would give Vaggie away?
The thing with Sera is that, while she is absolutely a hypocrite who doesn’t care about what happens outside of heaven as long as none of it reaches their doorstep, her driving motivation is clearly fear. She does seem to feel genuinely guilty about the exterminations, but not more so than she fears an uprising. More importantly, she warns Emily not to question heaven because Emily could end up falling like Lucifer, and is obviously projecting her own fears onto Em. If you go back to the intro of episode 1, you can clearly see that one of the angels creating humanity is Sera. She was there to personally see Lucifer fall, and she is **terrified** of meeting the same fate. For all of Sera’s rationalizing about how the exterminations are necessary for Heaven’s wellbeing and how hard of a choice it was, she isn’t motivated by any of that as strongly as she is her own selfish fear of ending up like Lucifer, and so she dares not risk disturbing the status quo.
the way he called that there was gonna be a song that said "welcome to heaven" over and over again kinda scared me, it's not a fascinating prediction, but man, he always knows...
It's less because Vaggie is an angel, and more because she never told her. It's all because Charlie's entire thing is that she forgives everyone, that she pushes forward and accepts everyone. And Vaggie didn't tell her, and because Charlie was meant to help protect her and help her feel better but Vaggie never let her. And it *hurt* Charlie, because Vaggie didn't trust her. It's because Charlie would have given Vaggie grace, but Vaggi didn't give her the chance to and it *hurts* her. Because she trusted Vaggie with **Everything** but Vaggie kept something big from her.
I don't think of that as a spoiler,@@kittyplayz1480 because that's what I got during the show. It's how I saw things even *before* charlie dumps it on [Censored for Spoilers].
Maybe the "their love is vile and blasphemous" thing was a double entendre for homophobia, but I read that more literally as an avenging angel of the Purge Hell Brigade and the daughter of the Devil himself being an item.
Yeah personally my first thought (after the homophobia) is that an angel and a demon being together is highly offensive to Lute...which may have some amusing implications for the future.
Adam's "hot as fuck" line really lends itself to the "homosexuality is wrong but lesbians are sexy" stereotype though. In-universe it could go either way but the parallels with homophobia have to be deliberate.
My interpretation is close to yours, as Lute meant it to be about an Angel and a Demon being together. And that Adam misinterpreted Lute into thinking it was about them being lesbians
@@XragebootsX Which is perfectly in character with them both, really. Lute being your typical "sir yes sir, do this by the book. kill em all sir" soldier type, whilst Adam doesn't actually care about that sort of thing and defaults to the frat boy persona and not really understanding what's going on
@@rufusmay9615 Ehh if anything I'd say it's closer to a parallel of being negative about mixed race relationships, but even that's a reach. Everyone can interpret art using their own lens, but I don't think every conflict presented in media is an intentional parallel to homophobia, but it's always the first commentors ascribe because it's persecution they've likely witnessed and -perhaps more cynically- one that people will agree with and engage with online, so is popular to draw parallels with. Personally, though, I find it reductionist to say every oppressed or persecuted thing in media is a take on homophobia/transphobia, as it erases all nuance of the hundreds of OTHER reasons characters can be needlessly shitty to one another.
It's more a feeling of betrayal, that her girlfriend wouldn't trust her enought to forgive her. But that also needs a lot more time to set up and resolve, and the show definitely lacks in that part!
I feel like Charlie of all people wouldn't mind Vaggie being an angel to be honest. I guess the source for the conflict is supposed to be that Vaggie didn't tell her the truth, but when you look at her reaction, it's one of horror, not anger or disappointment.
I do find it odd, my headcannon is that it was simply because of the whole exterminator thing and them towering over her. Maybe it would have been something had they had more time.
It's so refreshing to see a nuanced take on this show because your right, the show is way to rushed. BUT what a lot of other reviewers fail to realize (or at least mention) is that it's not the writer's fault. The show was originally supposed to be 22 episodes, it got more than halved by Amazon and their isn't much they could've done about it. I just hope with the popularity of the first season that season 2 will be given a bit extra time to breath, like at least 15 episodes.
My understanding is that the 22 episodes wasn't meant for the first season, but for both. So 2 seasons of 11 episodes. Still I think if they'd given just a couple more episodes the show's pacing would've felt so much better. I hope Season 2 gets the 12 episode treatment tbh.
The thing about characters eyes portraying power-dynamics has been disproven several times. It's a failed theory that just gets spread by people that never saw the refutation.
@@Psy_Ro It was suggested that a characters eyes might show the state of their soul, with black meaning they are owned, red they are owning someone and all others mening neither. The theory falls flat on its face once you notice that Husks eyes never change during his flashback in episode 4. As an Overlord he would have owned souls and as such would have needed to have red eyes during most of the flashback with his eyes becoming black once he loses to Alastor. Also the Overlord meeting in episode 3 shows a veriety of eye colors, which also disproves the idea.
Can I just say amongst all the online discourse coming from self proclaimed critics whose media literacy skills...leave something to be desired, your ability to assess characterization and what's going on within less than a minute of introduction to set ups is so refreshing
The eyes are actually a huge recurring visual motif seen throughout the show, especially noticeable during a lot of emotional scenes. Definitely more noticeable on rewatch though.
39:00 I'd like to point out that the assumption that Angels behavior is going to be a repeat of the pilot and go horribly wrong is kindof... antithetical to the show. I'd like to think thats purposeful. We all had that cringe of worry something was going to go wrong. Willing to bet Charlie had no doubt that Angel would be extremely helpful and believed in him 100% just to give us that feeling of "oh, we're kindof a dick for assuming that, arent we?" from a writing perspective.
Absolutely! Every single reactor I've watched had the same reaction that angel would just fall back on his own behavior and would fuck this up for her. No one had faith in him. No one but Charlie and Husk. And i guess faith is the whole point here right. The fact that those holier than thou angels don't have the faith necessary to believe in redemption. And we the audience get that little reprimand to have more faith in our spider boy.
I agree that it was purposeful, but I don't think you can really blame the viewers for that. At this point in the series we haven't really seen any progression for the "not sinning" in his character. The last real spotlight he'd had was episode 4, and he really only had a background role in episode 5 where it was specifically noted he was still doing drugs.
Yes, this has 'shoot our shot' energy. Tell a good enough complete story so that the season can stand on its own while leaving enough for future possible seasons. It also had to include a lot of fan favourite characters built up from 5 years of development and the writers strike
It's a show that's obviously been gutted a bit regarding screentime but any issues I have with the show honestly come from that. There's such consistency in characterisation and theming, I can see the passion put into constructing it all.
I swear every 8 episode series I've seen recently has been too rushed, like they really need 1 or 2 more episodes. I mean obviously every show's different, but Arcane had just 1 more episode and it was almost perfectly paced.
Yeah, and they made every second count. Arcane did it through character parallels and silent storytelling. Hazbin does it through subverted stereotypes and musical numbers. Hazbin DEFINITELY could have used longer episodes, especially to flesh out character interactions beyond. Just... Little scenes where they have time to breathe in the little moments, and to clarify.
I feel like a more apt comparison of pacing for Hazbin Hotel would be Moral Orel’s season 3; which has themes of Christianity and sin, is a comedy and dramatic exploration of characters, has 11 minute episodes, and was a season cut down from its original intended length. Or Over the Garden Wall which had a 10 episode run of 22 minute long episodes and was able to tell a well-paced, contained story in its runtime without Moral Orel’s prior benefit of 2 other seasons. Or Infinity Train that had 11 minute episodes and 10 episode seasons, each season being a comedic drama that explores a specific character with a tight narrative and themes of redemption and change. I feel like the pacing and character exploration issues stem from still trying to work from a 22 episode plan rather than trying to have something properly tailored to an 8 episodes, whether it be an 8 episode dramatic short story within the setting or looser, more episodic series. I can’t help but feel they rushed the writing to get it to the storyboarders, voice actors, and animation teams as soon as possible, and the mistakes and flaws in structure only became more apparent as time passed. While I largely dislike Hazbin Hotel, I think it’s better not to compare it to Arcane, not to constantly long for longer episodes or more episodes in a season, but to look towards series that do similar thing as it and work within the limitations that those other series are able to succeed in that Hazbin lacks for points of improvement.
This episode features one of my most and one of my least favorite songs of the show. "Welcome to Heaven" is not bad, but it feel a bit unnecessary. Like "We don't have the time to go into detail about heaven, so here is a quick song so we can also hit the "2 songs per episode"-mark". I don't think it even manages to act as a contrast to "Happy Day in Hell" because it's just so short. On the other side, I love "You didn't know". When I heard it the first time, I was a bit overwhelmed because it does so much. Charlies "It's not fair, Sera! Don't you care, Sera?" with her judging voice always gives me goosebumps. Then we get the first tone-shift when Lute starts singing and she and Adam start to reprise "Hell is forever" Then another tone-shift after Emily learns about the extermination. Sera's kinda hasty sung lines when she tries to defend her decision and the "not at all subtle"-visual of her singing "do what was required" while there are literal flames of destruction mirrored in her eyes. Next tone-shift when Emily distances herself from Sera and takes Charlies side with both of them questioning the rules in a beautiful duett-part. Only thing I don't like that much is the very end, when Adams exposes Vaggie. I can't really put my finger on it, but it doesn't "flow" for me as well as the rest of the song does. But enough gushing, time to see what Skyen has to say about this epsiode ^^
I have the impression that Welcome to heaven being unnecessary is kind of intentional, it sounds like an ad, a commercial, because it kind of is. It's simple and shallow because it's all about showing the superficial good side of heaven.
I honestly like that the vaggie reveal doesn't "flow" with the rest of the scene. It's another great characterization moment of Adam. He isn't doing it cause it proves anything, or refutes what Charlie is saying. It's a non sequitur attack for no reason but to hurt Vaggie and Charlie as retaliation, because Charlie is right, and there's nothing he can do to prove otherwise. He's the parent that hits his child for being right in an argument against him.
So yeah, angel classification bit on Hazbin. So far we only saw 3-4 types of angels between Hazbin and Helluva Boss that are easy to recognize/are name dropped. Normal angels (aka saint peter and friends), Seraphims (with Sera and Emily), Exterminators (made up by hazbin but thats Lute and Friends), and finally Cherubs in helluva Boss (and dont worry, they are the title of an episode, it aint a spoiler that they appear). Cherubs are represented by the pop culture cupid figure + cute farm animal furries. We still need to see the other types of angels, probably in Hazbin Season 2.
After the pacing nightmare of other animated shows, I've prioritized one thing over all others when critiquing it. That thing is whether a show wastes time. I'm fully willing to forgive a lot with a show's pacing if it's not pacing. It's why I give Hazbin Hotel a lot of credit because as much as I wish we had more time to flesh things out, it never squanders the time it has.
I think the reason they don't set up "Vaggie is an angel this whole time" being a revelation that would hurt Charlie because she hates angels because the reason this affects her is because Vaggie's been lying to her. It'd be weird for Charlie to be devistated because she hates angels, but it's completely in character for the revelation that Vaggie's been lying to her to affect her in this way.
i totally agree with you in terms of design choices. i think the fandom makes a lot of conspiracies about the designs, but i dont really believe most of them. the main cast is so old if the designs connect to other designs and plot points it was done after the fact or is a coincidence
Sky, give Charlie a fuckin second. Yeah, shes super accepting of everyone and a believer in redemption, but it was still a lie of omission about a VERY horrible truth dropped in the middle of a very emotional scenario. A hatred or even aversion to angels would totally fuck up her disney princess, see-the-good-in-everyone characterization. Just . . . watch the next episode.
Honestly based on the title of this video I expected you to be a lot harsher, I was pleasantly surprised because a lot of people really dogpile on this episode for it's pacing.
So...last episode we saw Lucifer showing young Charlie something that looked like a swan made out of light. And when Sera shows up for the first time, she has a very bird-like appearance. I wonder if there is a deeper meaning to this? Also little funfact: Lute's name was originally just a placeholder-name, being a abbreviation for "Lieutenant". But the name stuck around and made it into the final product.
I think its less that Vaggie is an Angel, and more like that she is specifically an Exorcist and more than that, she never told her, despiste all the opportunities she had. Makes her think Vaggie might be lying to her about something else or not be completely honest about her feelings.
I'd say that for the betrayal, we just don't have time in this episode to fully see Charlie's reaction beyond the initial shock. I'd say it's in part due to her never experiencing betrayal or that kind of "pain" herself taking her by surprise and confusing her. She preached forgiveness but never really had anything to forgive to someone, so in that it becomes a trial of character for her to actually have to extend forgiveness to someone who she feels betrayed her trust. Of course more setup would have been nice, for sure.
Love that observation. That she's lived such a sheltered life that while in theory she is all about forgiveness the first time she is actually faced with a deed that needs forgiveness she struggles to begin with.
@@emmy_the_nbndThat's how I choose to see it at least, with pentious she barely knew him for a day so there isn't that much trust to break. With Vaggie its a much deeper and intimate wound.
I wish this show would have gotten even 4 more episodes just to make the trial hit harder, and set up the Vaggie reveal. It makes me so sad. I'm REALLY hoping the next season gets a few more episodes. There are so many important, complex themes and messages this show attempts to tackle, and that can only happen WELL if Amazon gives it the time it needs.
@1:02:25 Um, _excuse me_ , Adam didn't _just_ write "three things on a list." Did you not see the COOL S he scribbled on that note as well? The Cool S must count for something! @1:05:15 You can tell there's a talent behind a work when you can tell that the problem with the show is not the people _making_ it, but more the people _funding_ it (or not funding it enough, as the case may be).
There's a scene in one of the earlier episodes where Charlie is freaking out about the fact that they now only have 6 months to prove the Hotel can redeem sinners, and she sort of breathlessly complains that their timeline got cut in half, and it could get cut in half again, and again. To me, I feel like this was a little bit of Vivienne complaining about the fact that her timeline was so drastically cut. When Vaggie consoles her and says that they will simply have to find a way to deal with it, I think that is probably a conversation they all had at some point in the writers' room. It makes me feel so bad for the Spindlehorse team, because they really got the shaft with only 8 episodes.
13:52 the reason eyes are so important in heaven designs is because traditional depiction of angels have multiple eyes in their wings and bodies. Seraphs are stated to have eyes in their wings Opharams are said to have eyes in the wheels that make their bodies Azrael the archangel of death has ten wings with eyes that close when someone dies and opens when someone borns etc. I don't know if there is another intended reason in the show for those eyes, but we can place the root of it here I think.
It's not the fact that vaggie is an angel it's that she didn't trust her with that information that is the betrayalto Charlie. The fact that vaggie didn't believe that Charlie would forgive her feels to Charlie like an attack on her person. The revulsion towards angels doesn't lay with Charlie but with vaggie and she has expressed distain towards angels as early as happy day in hell in the very first song.
So there is a possible explanation for Adam. In the lore dump of Ep 1 Charlie mentions that Eve ate the Apple but never mentions Adam. If Adam hadn't eaten the Apple then he would not have whatever passes for original sin. Thus he would get a free pass into Heaven. But he also would not have knowledge of Good and Evil. Thus he would be a psychopath. So this fouls thing pops into Heaven and the Angels have no idea what to make of him. They just figure they are to look after the people that arrive. So they try to ignore Adam because he makes their brains hurt. And then more humans show up and they are nicer. Thus the Angels, Sera in particular, set about crafting their own explanations for why and how things were. I expect their thoughts turned to a sin based system. But I think where Viv is guiding this is that Hell is really about a place that was supposed to be for people to heal. The focus of everyone's arc tends to be dealing with mental health issues. They tend to be people who are in their own personal Hell by way of the hurts and pain in there lives. And there are also people who are hurting others. These people are who wind up in Hell. And if Lucifer had held to his original faith in humanity he would have worked to raise them up from were they had fallen. But when he fell he lost his faith in humanity and fell into a pit of his own. This is why Charlie is so revolutionary in Hell. She is the first one to give people hope.
I think that's intentional given that several of the other angels are also bird-like in design and Lucifer himself is associated with ducks and/or swans.
i guess in the eyes of the characters Angel's growth wasn't so fast-paced since this whole season tooks place in a 6-months period, and it seems like the biggest "time skip" is from Episode 4 to 5, but i totally get what you said and also agree
It's implied to a degree, but not really shown as well as it could be. But a lot of how Angel, Husk, Sir Pen and Nifty interact indicates (to me, at least) that when they're off-screen, they're spending time together and bonding.
I think part of Angel's deal is that he's trying to protect his friends. He gave in easily when Val was talking about him, but the second Charlie gets mentioned he hesitates and begs, wanting to get her out of there. He's willing to stand up when it comes to his friends, but he lets it happen when it's just himself that suffers
about the "charlie should have expressed hate towards angels" she does question if they have a heart in the first song so they kinda did that to an extent
I really like the song "You Didn't Know" from this episode, while this episode is where the compression issue shows the hardest, I think the song does a really good job of using the already existing pieces, and it feels really cathartic when Charlie and Emily start...Blasting metaphorically? at Sera's hypocricies
I find it interesting to see how pretty much everyone agrees the pacing is an issue. I can sort of see why, but weirdly the pacing is probably what I find most interesting and enjoyable about this show. Not everything is spelled out and exercized, which gives it an essayistic quality of raising questions and making remarks without answering them or sealing the thought-process off. It leaves room for the audience to think, rewatch and discuss in a way that a "properly" (or rather classically) paced show with proper set-up, breathing room and cathartic payoffs would have stifled. I dare to say, there is something beautiful about its brevity as jarring as it may be sometimes at first. Never in my life have I come back to immediately rewatch a show multiple times to better understand it. The show just seemed to get better and better the more times I watched it.
I'm sure that many many people must have alreay mentioned the Misic Video Addict in regards to Angeldust, but it gives us insight to Cherry Bomb and her friendship with Angeldust too.
Fun fact: One of the reasons why Hazbin released so "late" its because they had to do a rewrite after the first "finalized' script was done. To me, looking at the final piece, it feels like they got the amount of episodes they had cut and had to accomodate, this also may be why SPOILER KINDA SORTA STOP READIN THIS PART OF THE PARAGRAPH JUST IN CASE the story is so self contained, it screams "Okay we may only get one chance fellas so lets make a good story that can lead to more stuff but its satisfying if we just get this" Like this is a story that needed AT LEAST 12 episodes, 8 is way too little for what they wanted to do. I still love the show and I am glad they could make it, but it is quite a bit sad that the last batch of ep felt so rushed, specially bc at the beginning the tempo was better.
@@OneofmanyASMRIf the confirmation for season 2 happened close to when we the audience discovered it, that means it was like, a couple of months ago MAX, which, woof, by that point the first season was literally ready to air
Given that hazbin has been making numbers for amazon I hope that season 2 will get more episodes for hopefully more fleshed out episodes and more consistent pacing.
Its not just because of the rewrite, it was also because of the strikes, which is why there was so little promotional material leading up to january, they werent allowed to promote it since thats part of the strike.
For me, at least it feels more like Charlie is not mad about or at angels, Like you said there's no set up for that so I feel like it would be a little bit off. But I feel like it's more of they been together for so long and how could she not tell her, it's the lie that cuts not necessarily what the lie was about.
A nitpick I have, is that Cherri Bomb feels a bit under-explored. Yes you see her in the pilot, but I think the most you get of her is in the "Addict"-Music-Video, where she is pictured as a kind of "comrade in suffering" for Angel Dust. But most people won't know about that video when they first pick up the show. Also most of the "older" stuff isn't 100% canon anymore. Maybe they decided to move the "fellow sufferer" to Husker and Cherri has a new role. I hope we will see much more of her in Season 2. Because so far, her only role is to be a "bad influence" for Angel and that's a pity for a character that has been there from the start.
The thing with the fast pacing is that its not ewally a hazbin hotel problem but more just a streaming media problem in general. Everything's like 6 to 8 episodes now and it has killed pacing all over the place.
18:23 I wanna say this is genuinely a huge feature of your content for me, I certainly enjoy looking at things through a critical lens, but upon first viewings I'm definitely the kind of person to just watch things through and sometimes not fully absorb what I'm even watching until my second or third rewatch, so having time to sit and listen to your thoughts on shows has done a lot to make it easier for me to formulate my own ideas. Love everything you do.
I'm such an incredible simp for the "noble queen" type that I even now am desperately hoping Sera will have some kind of redemption, but Skyen makes a real good point about how bad this is 😅
0:40 I see youve already seen the episode 29:45 Skyen gets indignantly angry at Sera for being a NIMBY 37:00 Neat detail I just noticed, Lute (Adam's secretary) and the other excorcists have black halos. Sera and Adam have the glowy white and gold halos, seemingly because they dont actually go down to kill people. Sera signs the war order, Adam is a general who stays on the homefront, and Lute leads the Exterminations in hell. And for that she's seemingly 'tainted' that holy crown by being a wrathful person. So Sera's hands are metaphorically clean of this 'sin', same with Adam. The homefront hasnt seen the war 45:42 Sir Pentious' stack underflow rizz. So bad at flirting that he gets the whole bar 1:06:05 Yea the show really suffers from only having eight episodes, you dont even get time to know that the reason Charlie is betrayed. So all you can assume is that she's racist against angels. If the show had more time, maybe it would have properly explored why she felt like trust was broken.
Re: gold representing divinity or paradise, the few parts of the Bible that describe heaven in any detail talk about streets paved with gold and similar imagery.
So, a big part of why I started watching Hazbin Hotel was seeing a RUclips cosplay video of the song "You Didn't Know", I'm really glad the episode itself holds up to my memory of that video. Charlie and Emily's rage is so powerful, I love it.
The fact that to me at least I would have been like "okay let's see what happens in the studio at least see Angel come back to the hotel battered and bruised and have Charlie hit her limit." Like, Angel Dust and Valentino should have been resolved in the montage we see in the next two episodes.
"Cherri looks different, still british" Huh? is that not the opposite of the case? I think she looks pretty much the same but now instead of American she's an Aussie. I don't know if Gold is associated with YHWH himself but it's definitely associated with divinity, when the Hebrew's made their new false God when Moses was on the mountain they melted their golden jewlery to make the Calf statue to worship.
1:06:30 ish + 1:14:00 ish etc: I completely agree that this reveal could have been better if they had more time. I'm on the fence, because I love the way Adam reveals that he named Vaggie which makes you go "oh, wow, that really is her name." But I also love the end of this song, how the music goes DUN DUN DUUUN with the reveal, and unfortunately as the viewer we already knew so it's not too much of a big "whoa" to us as it could have been. Like the "dun dun duuuun" could've been so much more effective if it actually was a reveal but it wasn't really. I'm a big fan of music going along with things happening, the background sound of anything is usually super important to the feel, even silence is effective when done on purpose. I keep most in-game music on in games for this reason. But either way, I still really enjoyed the episode, 'cause as I said I liked both reveals, funny vs serious I dunno which one I like more. I guess if they didn't do the reveal with Adam we could have just assumed Adam named her and that's why her name is what it is, I dunno :P
just gonna mention it again here since cherri bomb has come back: do give the Addicted music video a watch! it also has some more Cherri bomb than what the pilot gave us!
Yeah, they didn't confirm season two until 1 was already pretty much done. Trying to cram your whole series into 8 episodes? not even the standard 12, or the old standard 24? ouch.
I'm so glad someone agrees that Husk immediately shaming Angel was not the thing to say. Getting off of drugs is NOT that easy. Especially when you get lightly pressured and had a shit day. Ive seen so many people praise him for that and I was like ???? Also it contradicts Loser, Baby.
And I get that in this show, drug use is a sin and taking them will hinder your progress- but then I really think Husk shouldn't have been the one to shame him. Because again, it contradicts Loser, baby. And makes that song feel like it meant nothing. I feel like Husk would be better just letting Angel chose who he wants to be. Loser, or winner. And thats why they get along so well. Maybe they made an agreement off-screen to keep eachother in check, but we don't know that. So it just comes off...real weird.
34:13 Lute was either being homophobic or talking about how Charlie is a demon and Vaggie is (technically still) an angel. Edit: I also think the scene with Angel and Val isn't the last of Angel's character development. Considering he's still in his contract, there's probably going to be more involving their relationship (especially because of a thing I can't talk about yet) plus there's a high chance that Angel's situation will get worse before it gets better, like many recovery stories.
Based on Vivziepop stating that homosexuality is not a sin in this setting, I’m pretty sure that Lute was referring to the Angel/demon romance. As much as I’d want another reason to despise Lute, her hatred seems to be purely towards hell and sinners in particular, not gay people.
Skeyn brings up a good point about the eyes because in an interview Viv was asked about why so many of her desgins have hearts and it is mainly because it is a fixation for her, she just enjoys adding them to her desgins. In a desgin like Valentino's it feels like it serves a purpose but then in others it does feel like it could have some added meaning to it but also it is just something Viv likes to add to the desgins. So, you're not wrong, it is hard to tell if you don't go digging for the lore in the side content.
The show definitely wasn’t intended to be this short, but amazon is going to amazon. Helluva boss on the other hand has all the freedom to be as slow as it wants and booooy do they use that! Yes this is me once again asking if you’re going to react to helluva boss as well 😁
I mean angel is still scared of val, his first instinct was to run but he stood up to him because of nifty, and the key difference between then and now is that he has husk now, someone in his support network that can give him the courage he needs through shared trauma i can agree of the problem of compression with camilla but i think they handled it well enough here, especially because this is a show, he’s not tied to val because of financial abuse or any other realistic reason people end up in abusive relationships, it’s a soul contract made with hell magic because we’re in hell and everyone’s a furry, so the suspension of disbelief pf him standing up to val 2 episodes later works of me cus 1) his first instinct was to run as soon as he saw val and he was clearly terrified of him still 2) as he says “as our contract says you own me in the studio” which explains why he was able to come to the hotel in the first place, he’s gonna get in trouble later but even when i was in the thick of my abuse touch my mom and i’ll fucking end you, you can do what you want to me and only me so i think it’s still realistic and fine to me personally
For once I have to say I disagree on your take on the Vaggie reveal. Charlie isn't upset that Vaggie is an angel. Charlie does not care the she is an angel for all the reasons you rightfully listed. Charlie has no strong distaste for angels. Charlie trusts everyone und would have given her a second chance without a second thought. What she is upset by is that the one person that has stood by her side all these years has lied to her for all that time. Charlie has openly expressed how much she believes in second chances but her partner, who supposedly believes in her so much, doesn't trust her to actually extend that sentiment to herself. Charlie is not upset that Vaggie is an angel. Charlie is upset that Vaggie lied to her for no reason she can immediately understand.
@@aniheartsong5102 I don't think he wouldn't "figure it out" and needs clearification. This is me disagreeing with his read of a scene because even in his initial reaction he points out how Charlie being upset at Vaggie's past doesn't make sense with the set up we have. And he is entirely right because it *doesn't*. When I initially watched the show myself I interpreted the root of Charlie's upset differently because a resentment on her part was never set up instead of assuming that resentment was intended and the show simply negelected to properly set it up.
Cherubs' thing is that they have four faces: a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle. They also have wings, but the exact number is a little up to interpretation.
1:06:40 With the way you've analyzed Charlie's character, do you believe she will be mortified over Vaggie being an angel? In the last episode, she said that Adam was an asshole. JUST Adam, not all angels. I get your point, but even with the season compression, it's fairly simple to assume Charlie's problem isn't going to be learning that Vaggie is an angel. But who she learned it from.
I know that, as of the time I'm posting this comment, the episode 7 reaction has already been recorded so this shouldn't be a spoiler, and also other people have mentioned this already, but because I have my own take on it I wanna give, I'm gonna reiterate anyway: The reason Charlie gets upset at the end of this episode when Vaggie being an angel is revealed has nothing to do with Vaggie being an angel and everything to do with the fact that she lied. That despite how much Charlie preaches about second chances, and Vaggie professing her belief in Charlie's ideals, that Vaggie STILL didn't feel like she could be open with Charlie about being an angel, and that's why it hurt her so much. And my own personal take that I want to throw in there as an addendum is... Back in episode 3, Charlie has Vaggie run the trust exercises with the hotel staff/guests because, as Charlie herself put it, Charlie trusts everyone implicitly. Despite the fact that she's lived her whole life in hell, she still trusts and gives people the benefit of the doubt that they're being genuine with her. And so I think the Vaggie reveal is the first time that somebody has actually truly violated that trust she puts in them in a meaningful way, by having the person closest to her feel like they can't be honest with her, and THAT'S what crushes her. Mind you, the part where it's too compressed and needed more time is still accurate, we could've used a few more scenes of Vaggie doubting herself, maybe even trying to confess to Charlie only to chicken out, but having Charlie express a distaste for angels specifically isn't what that plotline needed because that's not really what the issue was about.
best show problem, just from an emotional standpoint, is "there wasn't enough show to watch". and I think if we didn't know about the industry, didn't have the additional information from behind the scenes about the process of making HH s1, this show might've not been as popular as it is.
I think it's important to remember that Lucifer also agreed to the extermination according to Charlie. So if people want to (rightfully) condemn Sera, they should hold the same thing against Lucifer and not just excuse it because sad and depressed dad is relatable.
I have the impresion that the show hasn't written Sera as harsly as you read her. I feel like the decision was actually hard to her. Of course it's still her fault, she's the one that could have prevented a genocide and she endorsed it. But the intro to the show explains that Lilith was inspiring an uprising, there was an actual threat. I don't think it's an excuse for a genocide, but I think we are supposed to understand that she really felt like there weren't other options. Calling it "your yearly activities" was infuriating, though. The lenghts people go to ignore the severity of their actions.
The lack of "meat" because of so much stuff being compressed, and we having to do some "gap filling" with our brain, really reminds me of Arcane.
Like, of course Powder and Ekko are childhood friends, despite them never sharing a screen pre time skip.
Yeaaaah, they tried to shove it into the ENEMY music video and it just does not work
To be honest, the flashback during a fight scene did the best job it could with them. It's actually surprising how effectively they crammed so much story into a 2 minute fight scene.
I adore arcane but i also feel like it needed way more episodes
I heard somewhere that Viv originally wanted a 22 episode season that was cut down to the 8 we got
Yowch. That explains why this feels why this feels more rush then The Owl house’s third season.
Heard that too. XD
Frustrating.
Doubt that. Her recent interview with Cartoon Brew confirms it was Amazon and A24 who set the 8 episodes in place (not knowing if another season was gonna be produced) But if you wanna go back further, leaks showing an old pitch bibles shows that 9 episodes were shown, along with 9 comic issues. (Although looking it, you can tell the bible was produced way before Helluva Boss became a thing)
@fredrogers4717 You doubt that Viv wanted 22 episodes or that she had to settle for 8? Your comment makes it sound like the latter, but I'm not sure.
@@crazy13alex I mean, might sound strange and confusing when I say this, but none of us technically know how many episodes she wanted for Hazbin, hence my original comment (unless of course you yourself were able to find the source of OP’s claim)
I saw someone say once that Saint Peter gives off the vibe of a youth pastor who's trying way too hard to be "hip with the kids," and I haven't been able to get that idea out of my head ever since.
For me it was the comment saying they yassified St Peter 💀
Emily is very under explored, but how she immediately rejects the extermination and calls everyone out on the hypocrisy of it is still very satisfying. And of course both her and Charlie reprise of “Hell is Forever” is powerful
"THOSE WERE FURRIES 5 SECONDS AGO"
- 3BSkyn
"Tats a lot of furries in the background"
I knew he'd get a kick out of Sera and Emily's true forms.
He sounds both outraged and disappointed
@@KalaamNozalys This is the same man who got excited about defended a sparkledog a couple episodes back. I think he's fine haha
Angel Dust has this particular trait that it's always been there, featured right in front of us, but with this episode, it does become something evident: Angel is really protective, especially of those that he cares about.
Whether is shoving Cherry Bomb out of the way from Sir Pentious's attack in the pilot, trying to protect the hotel from the Vee’s spying plan, saving Pen from territorial war and drag him back home, pushing Charlie away from Valentino’s malicious intentions, saving Niffty from a piece of debris when the hotel it's attacked and taking her knife early in the episode, or watching out for her once again from the new environment and Valentino.
Unfortunately, a good portion of those occasions (and the most highlighted ones) usually come at the expense of Angel’s own safety. Knowing him, it wouldn’t be surprising to think that Angel might not still see himself as truly worth protecting and his fierce motivation to stand up to Val mainly comes from prioritizing Niffty and pushing some adrenaline in the intent to grasp for freedom after trying to express his tiredness earlier. This is my interpretation, to me it seems that he is more scared for his friends than for what it could happen to himself. I appreciate how at least this takes place months later, outside the studio, in a public space and surrounded by his support network.
But yes, it is unfortunate but the pacing it is for sure fast U-U In a very recent interview, Viv mentioned that her original plan for this first season were 22 episodes.
That's what gives me some reassurance on handling Angel's character development going forward, knowing we're getting a 2nd season. Healing isn't linear. Angel was able to put his own trauma aside out of desperation to protect nifty from Val and in that adrenaline rush had it in him to tell Val off. In the moment it's worth suffering for it later but once Val puts him through more abuse in the studio there's potential that angel would backslide in his recovery
Also assuming what was developed in concept about his backstory in life stays canon and that it will be explored in season 2, he's still got a lot of trauma to work through. He's still under Val's contract as well, so there's room for it to be the case that he didn't just miraculously find his autonomy, considering Val still has control over him. He was just able to put that aside, prioritizing Nifty
Yesss I am not the only one who noticed! Like Angel might look like a damsel in distress but he is a protector at heart and I love seeing him try his best to protect everyone. Even the egg boys
1:14:44 Vaggie dumped her uniform and spear in the scene when Charlie found her. She's never seen an exorcist out of said uniform, so Vaggie would look like a sinner who just barely survived a run-in with one. If Adam and Lute are the first angels Charlie has ever talked to, then what would give Vaggie away?
The thing with Sera is that, while she is absolutely a hypocrite who doesn’t care about what happens outside of heaven as long as none of it reaches their doorstep, her driving motivation is clearly fear. She does seem to feel genuinely guilty about the exterminations, but not more so than she fears an uprising. More importantly, she warns Emily not to question heaven because Emily could end up falling like Lucifer, and is obviously projecting her own fears onto Em.
If you go back to the intro of episode 1, you can clearly see that one of the angels creating humanity is Sera. She was there to personally see Lucifer fall, and she is **terrified** of meeting the same fate. For all of Sera’s rationalizing about how the exterminations are necessary for Heaven’s wellbeing and how hard of a choice it was, she isn’t motivated by any of that as strongly as she is her own selfish fear of ending up like Lucifer, and so she dares not risk disturbing the status quo.
Ah yes, welcome to the mid-season finale, with 2 episodes left in the season
the way he called that there was gonna be a song that said "welcome to heaven" over and over again kinda scared me, it's not a fascinating prediction, but man, he always knows...
I'm new here, came here basically entirely for his reaction to this series, and this person has an UNCANNY ability to call shit it's a bit spooky.
It's less because Vaggie is an angel, and more because she never told her. It's all because Charlie's entire thing is that she forgives everyone, that she pushes forward and accepts everyone. And Vaggie didn't tell her, and because Charlie was meant to help protect her and help her feel better but Vaggie never let her. And it *hurt* Charlie, because Vaggie didn't trust her. It's because Charlie would have given Vaggie grace, but Vaggi didn't give her the chance to and it *hurts* her. Because she trusted Vaggie with **Everything** but Vaggie kept something big from her.
yeah, I think episode 7 does a pretty good job of explaining the actual reason Charlie's upset so I'm curious to see how Skyen reacts to it.
I think this counts as a spoiler because Charlie says as much next episode
Yeah, it's great in episode 7, but in episode 6 that definitely isn't how it comes off
I don't think of that as a spoiler,@@kittyplayz1480 because that's what I got during the show. It's how I saw things even *before* charlie dumps it on [Censored for Spoilers].
@@robttore2 I mean you’re right that’s how I see it too but still
1:07:02 “Do they not have hearts?”
“To change their minds, and touch their hearts, or whatever angels have” -opening song
The blind callout of "Welcome to Heaven" musical number before you even started the episode had me cackling
Gotta admit you predicting the "Welcome to Heaven" song almost verbatim made me cackle.
Maybe the "their love is vile and blasphemous" thing was a double entendre for homophobia, but I read that more literally as an avenging angel of the Purge Hell Brigade and the daughter of the Devil himself being an item.
Yeah personally my first thought (after the homophobia) is that an angel and a demon being together is highly offensive to Lute...which may have some amusing implications for the future.
Adam's "hot as fuck" line really lends itself to the "homosexuality is wrong but lesbians are sexy" stereotype though. In-universe it could go either way but the parallels with homophobia have to be deliberate.
My interpretation is close to yours, as Lute meant it to be about an Angel and a Demon being together. And that Adam misinterpreted Lute into thinking it was about them being lesbians
@@XragebootsX Which is perfectly in character with them both, really. Lute being your typical "sir yes sir, do this by the book. kill em all sir" soldier type, whilst Adam doesn't actually care about that sort of thing and defaults to the frat boy persona and not really understanding what's going on
@@rufusmay9615 Ehh if anything I'd say it's closer to a parallel of being negative about mixed race relationships, but even that's a reach.
Everyone can interpret art using their own lens, but I don't think every conflict presented in media is an intentional parallel to homophobia, but it's always the first commentors ascribe because it's persecution they've likely witnessed and -perhaps more cynically- one that people will agree with and engage with online, so is popular to draw parallels with. Personally, though, I find it reductionist to say every oppressed or persecuted thing in media is a take on homophobia/transphobia, as it erases all nuance of the hundreds of OTHER reasons characters can be needlessly shitty to one another.
i was looking for a blender tutorial but i guess this is what i'm doing for the next hour
I was gonna start a new game, but yeah, same
I paused my BG3 honor mode run for this
@@Aphelia. I was actually waiting for my Bg3 duo while modeling
It's not that Vaggie's an angel, it's that she's a LIAR.
Charlie doesn't hate angels, otherwise she wouldn't be trying to help sinners in becoming angels. It is indeed the lie that hurt her.
Its not even so much that. It's a shock. Carlie needed some time to process NOT in a crisis and she doesn't really get that
It's more a feeling of betrayal, that her girlfriend wouldn't trust her enought to forgive her.
But that also needs a lot more time to set up and resolve, and the show definitely lacks in that part!
And to give due credit, Vaggie is only a liar by omission (not trusting Charlie would take that secret well).
Cherri Bomb's character and her relationship with Angel was actually given more context/was somewhat elaborated on in the "Addict" mv
I feel like Charlie of all people wouldn't mind Vaggie being an angel to be honest. I guess the source for the conflict is supposed to be that Vaggie didn't tell her the truth, but when you look at her reaction, it's one of horror, not anger or disappointment.
I do find it odd, my headcannon is that it was simply because of the whole exterminator thing and them towering over her. Maybe it would have been something had they had more time.
Eyes are intentional for sure, bcz little angel has one on her chest which implies what she is looking through her heart.
It's so refreshing to see a nuanced take on this show because your right, the show is way to rushed. BUT what a lot of other reviewers fail to realize (or at least mention) is that it's not the writer's fault. The show was originally supposed to be 22 episodes, it got more than halved by Amazon and their isn't much they could've done about it.
I just hope with the popularity of the first season that season 2 will be given a bit extra time to breath, like at least 15 episodes.
My understanding is that the 22 episodes wasn't meant for the first season, but for both. So 2 seasons of 11 episodes. Still I think if they'd given just a couple more episodes the show's pacing would've felt so much better. I hope Season 2 gets the 12 episode treatment tbh.
The thing about characters eyes portraying power-dynamics has been disproven several times. It's a failed theory that just gets spread by people that never saw the refutation.
what do you mean?
@@Psy_Ro It was suggested that a characters eyes might show the state of their soul, with black meaning they are owned, red they are owning someone and all others mening neither.
The theory falls flat on its face once you notice that Husks eyes never change during his flashback in episode 4. As an Overlord he would have owned souls and as such would have needed to have red eyes during most of the flashback with his eyes becoming black once he loses to Alastor.
Also the Overlord meeting in episode 3 shows a veriety of eye colors, which also disproves the idea.
Can I just say amongst all the online discourse coming from self proclaimed critics whose media literacy skills...leave something to be desired, your ability to assess characterization and what's going on within less than a minute of introduction to set ups is so refreshing
The eyes are actually a huge recurring visual motif seen throughout the show, especially noticeable during a lot of emotional scenes. Definitely more noticeable on rewatch though.
The framing in You Didn't Know is fantastic. With the central orb, it lights all the angels and shadows everyone on Charlie's side
Id never have thought to see 3BSkyen completely go "eat shit, eat shit, eat shit" but Im göad it happened😂
39:00 I'd like to point out that the assumption that Angels behavior is going to be a repeat of the pilot and go horribly wrong is kindof... antithetical to the show. I'd like to think thats purposeful. We all had that cringe of worry something was going to go wrong. Willing to bet Charlie had no doubt that Angel would be extremely helpful and believed in him 100% just to give us that feeling of "oh, we're kindof a dick for assuming that, arent we?" from a writing perspective.
Absolutely! Every single reactor I've watched had the same reaction that angel would just fall back on his own behavior and would fuck this up for her. No one had faith in him. No one but Charlie and Husk. And i guess faith is the whole point here right. The fact that those holier than thou angels don't have the faith necessary to believe in redemption. And we the audience get that little reprimand to have more faith in our spider boy.
I agree that it was purposeful, but I don't think you can really blame the viewers for that. At this point in the series we haven't really seen any progression for the "not sinning" in his character. The last real spotlight he'd had was episode 4, and he really only had a background role in episode 5 where it was specifically noted he was still doing drugs.
@@AppleBritters part of the problem is definitely that we don’t see the months Im between these episodes, that’s for sure…
Yes, this has 'shoot our shot' energy. Tell a good enough complete story so that the season can stand on its own while leaving enough for future possible seasons. It also had to include a lot of fan favourite characters built up from 5 years of development and the writers strike
I find that assuming everything is meaningful is much more satisfying with this series than the alternative.
It's a show that's obviously been gutted a bit regarding screentime but any issues I have with the show honestly come from that. There's such consistency in characterisation and theming, I can see the passion put into constructing it all.
I swear every 8 episode series I've seen recently has been too rushed, like they really need 1 or 2 more episodes. I mean obviously every show's different, but Arcane had just 1 more episode and it was almost perfectly paced.
But Arcane had like, 40 minutes long episodes right?
arcane had 40min episodes, basically 3 films... the fuck is with that comparison
Yeah, and they made every second count. Arcane did it through character parallels and silent storytelling. Hazbin does it through subverted stereotypes and musical numbers. Hazbin DEFINITELY could have used longer episodes, especially to flesh out character interactions beyond. Just... Little scenes where they have time to breathe in the little moments, and to clarify.
I feel like a more apt comparison of pacing for Hazbin Hotel would be Moral Orel’s season 3; which has themes of Christianity and sin, is a comedy and dramatic exploration of characters, has 11 minute episodes, and was a season cut down from its original intended length.
Or Over the Garden Wall which had a 10 episode run of 22 minute long episodes and was able to tell a well-paced, contained story in its runtime without Moral Orel’s prior benefit of 2 other seasons.
Or Infinity Train that had 11 minute episodes and 10 episode seasons, each season being a comedic drama that explores a specific character with a tight narrative and themes of redemption and change.
I feel like the pacing and character exploration issues stem from still trying to work from a 22 episode plan rather than trying to have something properly tailored to an 8 episodes, whether it be an 8 episode dramatic short story within the setting or looser, more episodic series. I can’t help but feel they rushed the writing to get it to the storyboarders, voice actors, and animation teams as soon as possible, and the mistakes and flaws in structure only became more apparent as time passed.
While I largely dislike Hazbin Hotel, I think it’s better not to compare it to Arcane, not to constantly long for longer episodes or more episodes in a season, but to look towards series that do similar thing as it and work within the limitations that those other series are able to succeed in that Hazbin lacks for points of improvement.
@@jotape419 True, but I was more talking about dividing the story into 9 pieces rather than the length of the actual show.
I love/hate how accurate your predictions are. 45 seconds in and you already predicted the Welcome To Heaven song
This episode features one of my most and one of my least favorite songs of the show.
"Welcome to Heaven" is not bad, but it feel a bit unnecessary.
Like "We don't have the time to go into detail about heaven, so here is a quick song so we can also hit the "2 songs per episode"-mark".
I don't think it even manages to act as a contrast to "Happy Day in Hell" because it's just so short.
On the other side, I love "You didn't know". When I heard it the first time, I was a bit overwhelmed because it does so much.
Charlies "It's not fair, Sera! Don't you care, Sera?" with her judging voice always gives me goosebumps.
Then we get the first tone-shift when Lute starts singing and she and Adam start to reprise "Hell is forever"
Then another tone-shift after Emily learns about the extermination.
Sera's kinda hasty sung lines when she tries to defend her decision and the "not at all subtle"-visual of her singing "do what was required" while there are literal flames of destruction mirrored in her eyes.
Next tone-shift when Emily distances herself from Sera and takes Charlies side with both of them questioning the rules in a beautiful duett-part.
Only thing I don't like that much is the very end, when Adams exposes Vaggie. I can't really put my finger on it, but it doesn't "flow" for me as well as the rest of the song does.
But enough gushing, time to see what Skyen has to say about this epsiode ^^
I have the impression that Welcome to heaven being unnecessary is kind of intentional, it sounds like an ad, a commercial, because it kind of is. It's simple and shallow because it's all about showing the superficial good side of heaven.
I honestly like that the vaggie reveal doesn't "flow" with the rest of the scene. It's another great characterization moment of Adam. He isn't doing it cause it proves anything, or refutes what Charlie is saying. It's a non sequitur attack for no reason but to hurt Vaggie and Charlie as retaliation, because Charlie is right, and there's nothing he can do to prove otherwise. He's the parent that hits his child for being right in an argument against him.
I totally didn't visit the channel everyday with notifications on to finally watch this episode reaction (me when I lie)
ME FR FR
We miss our dad all days, so we want to spend time with him all days.
He posts hazbin stuff once every 3 days
"Objection!"
"This isn't a trial and you're not a lawyer, sit the fuck down."
bad court scenes in media hurt me. This one was bearable, but totally agree
@marc0s158 for me it was fine because it never came across as a court thing and more "organised meeting"
I feel like a single solid line of charlie going "you Lied! about this?!" would have worked better
So yeah, angel classification bit on Hazbin. So far we only saw 3-4 types of angels between Hazbin and Helluva Boss that are easy to recognize/are name dropped. Normal angels (aka saint peter and friends), Seraphims (with Sera and Emily), Exterminators (made up by hazbin but thats Lute and Friends), and finally Cherubs in helluva Boss (and dont worry, they are the title of an episode, it aint a spoiler that they appear). Cherubs are represented by the pop culture cupid figure + cute farm animal furries.
We still need to see the other types of angels, probably in Hazbin Season 2.
After the pacing nightmare of other animated shows, I've prioritized one thing over all others when critiquing it. That thing is whether a show wastes time. I'm fully willing to forgive a lot with a show's pacing if it's not pacing. It's why I give Hazbin Hotel a lot of credit because as much as I wish we had more time to flesh things out, it never squanders the time it has.
I think the reason they don't set up "Vaggie is an angel this whole time" being a revelation that would hurt Charlie because she hates angels because the reason this affects her is because Vaggie's been lying to her. It'd be weird for Charlie to be devistated because she hates angels, but it's completely in character for the revelation that Vaggie's been lying to her to affect her in this way.
i totally agree with you in terms of design choices. i think the fandom makes a lot of conspiracies about the designs, but i dont really believe most of them. the main cast is so old if the designs connect to other designs and plot points it was done after the fact or is a coincidence
Sky, give Charlie a fuckin second. Yeah, shes super accepting of everyone and a believer in redemption, but it was still a lie of omission about a VERY horrible truth dropped in the middle of a very emotional scenario. A hatred or even aversion to angels would totally fuck up her disney princess, see-the-good-in-everyone characterization. Just . . . watch the next episode.
Honestly based on the title of this video I expected you to be a lot harsher, I was pleasantly surprised because a lot of people really dogpile on this episode for it's pacing.
So...last episode we saw Lucifer showing young Charlie something that looked like a swan made out of light.
And when Sera shows up for the first time, she has a very bird-like appearance.
I wonder if there is a deeper meaning to this?
Also little funfact: Lute's name was originally just a placeholder-name, being a abbreviation for "Lieutenant". But the name stuck around and made it into the final product.
Watching along to this has such a cathartic effect on me because non of my friends or family will watch Hazbin hotel with me.😅
I think its less that Vaggie is an Angel, and more like that she is specifically an Exorcist and more than that, she never told her, despiste all the opportunities she had. Makes her think Vaggie might be lying to her about something else or not be completely honest about her feelings.
I'd say that for the betrayal, we just don't have time in this episode to fully see Charlie's reaction beyond the initial shock. I'd say it's in part due to her never experiencing betrayal or that kind of "pain" herself taking her by surprise and confusing her. She preached forgiveness but never really had anything to forgive to someone, so in that it becomes a trial of character for her to actually have to extend forgiveness to someone who she feels betrayed her trust.
Of course more setup would have been nice, for sure.
Love that observation. That she's lived such a sheltered life that while in theory she is all about forgiveness the first time she is actually faced with a deed that needs forgiveness she struggles to begin with.
@@emmy_the_nbndThat's how I choose to see it at least, with pentious she barely knew him for a day so there isn't that much trust to break. With Vaggie its a much deeper and intimate wound.
I wish this show would have gotten even 4 more episodes just to make the trial hit harder, and set up the Vaggie reveal. It makes me so sad. I'm REALLY hoping the next season gets a few more episodes. There are so many important, complex themes and messages this show attempts to tackle, and that can only happen WELL if Amazon gives it the time it needs.
@1:02:25 Um, _excuse me_ , Adam didn't _just_ write "three things on a list." Did you not see the COOL S he scribbled on that note as well? The Cool S must count for something!
@1:05:15 You can tell there's a talent behind a work when you can tell that the problem with the show is not the people _making_ it, but more the people _funding_ it (or not funding it enough, as the case may be).
There's a scene in one of the earlier episodes where Charlie is freaking out about the fact that they now only have 6 months to prove the Hotel can redeem sinners, and she sort of breathlessly complains that their timeline got cut in half, and it could get cut in half again, and again. To me, I feel like this was a little bit of Vivienne complaining about the fact that her timeline was so drastically cut. When Vaggie consoles her and says that they will simply have to find a way to deal with it, I think that is probably a conversation they all had at some point in the writers' room. It makes me feel so bad for the Spindlehorse team, because they really got the shaft with only 8 episodes.
13:52
the reason eyes are so important in heaven designs is because traditional depiction of angels have multiple eyes in their wings and bodies.
Seraphs are stated to have eyes in their wings
Opharams are said to have eyes in the wheels that make their bodies
Azrael the archangel of death has ten wings with eyes that close when someone dies and opens when someone borns etc.
I don't know if there is another intended reason in the show for those eyes, but we can place the root of it here I think.
It's not the fact that vaggie is an angel it's that she didn't trust her with that information that is the betrayalto Charlie. The fact that vaggie didn't believe that Charlie would forgive her feels to Charlie like an attack on her person. The revulsion towards angels doesn't lay with Charlie but with vaggie and she has expressed distain towards angels as early as happy day in hell in the very first song.
So there is a possible explanation for Adam. In the lore dump of Ep 1 Charlie mentions that Eve ate the Apple but never mentions Adam. If Adam hadn't eaten the Apple then he would not have whatever passes for original sin. Thus he would get a free pass into Heaven. But he also would not have knowledge of Good and Evil. Thus he would be a psychopath. So this fouls thing pops into Heaven and the Angels have no idea what to make of him. They just figure they are to look after the people that arrive. So they try to ignore Adam because he makes their brains hurt. And then more humans show up and they are nicer. Thus the Angels, Sera in particular, set about crafting their own explanations for why and how things were. I expect their thoughts turned to a sin based system. But I think where Viv is guiding this is that Hell is really about a place that was supposed to be for people to heal. The focus of everyone's arc tends to be dealing with mental health issues. They tend to be people who are in their own personal Hell by way of the hurts and pain in there lives. And there are also people who are hurting others. These people are who wind up in Hell. And if Lucifer had held to his original faith in humanity he would have worked to raise them up from were they had fallen. But when he fell he lost his faith in humanity and fell into a pit of his own. This is why Charlie is so revolutionary in Hell. She is the first one to give people hope.
I love that Sera's eyelashes are so big in her true form that it looks bird feathery ears
I think that's intentional given that several of the other angels are also bird-like in design and Lucifer himself is associated with ducks and/or swans.
i guess in the eyes of the characters Angel's growth wasn't so fast-paced since this whole season tooks place in a 6-months period, and it seems like the biggest "time skip" is from Episode 4 to 5, but i totally get what you said and also agree
It's implied to a degree, but not really shown as well as it could be. But a lot of how Angel, Husk, Sir Pen and Nifty interact indicates (to me, at least) that when they're off-screen, they're spending time together and bonding.
So thankful to the person who pointed out that they made St. Peter quote a line from "One Week" by Barenaked Ladies
I think part of Angel's deal is that he's trying to protect his friends. He gave in easily when Val was talking about him, but the second Charlie gets mentioned he hesitates and begs, wanting to get her out of there. He's willing to stand up when it comes to his friends, but he lets it happen when it's just himself that suffers
about the "charlie should have expressed hate towards angels" she does question if they have a heart in the first song so they kinda did that to an extent
I really like the song "You Didn't Know" from this episode, while this episode is where the compression issue shows the hardest, I think the song does a really good job of using the already existing pieces, and it feels really cathartic when Charlie and Emily start...Blasting metaphorically? at Sera's hypocricies
I find it interesting to see how pretty much everyone agrees the pacing is an issue. I can sort of see why, but weirdly the pacing is probably what I find most interesting and enjoyable about this show. Not everything is spelled out and exercized, which gives it an essayistic quality of raising questions and making remarks without answering them or sealing the thought-process off. It leaves room for the audience to think, rewatch and discuss in a way that a "properly" (or rather classically) paced show with proper set-up, breathing room and cathartic payoffs would have stifled. I dare to say, there is something beautiful about its brevity as jarring as it may be sometimes at first.
Never in my life have I come back to immediately rewatch a show multiple times to better understand it. The show just seemed to get better and better the more times I watched it.
I think what Charlie reacted so strongly to was the fact that Vaggie lied to her by omission
I'm sure that many many people must have alreay mentioned the Misic Video Addict in regards to Angeldust, but it gives us insight to Cherry Bomb and her friendship with Angeldust too.
i mean heaven is quite literally a _gated_ community in this show
Fun fact: One of the reasons why Hazbin released so "late" its because they had to do a rewrite after the first "finalized' script was done.
To me, looking at the final piece, it feels like they got the amount of episodes they had cut and had to accomodate, this also may be why SPOILER KINDA SORTA STOP READIN THIS PART OF THE PARAGRAPH JUST IN CASE the story is so self contained, it screams "Okay we may only get one chance fellas so lets make a good story that can lead to more stuff but its satisfying if we just get this"
Like this is a story that needed AT LEAST 12 episodes, 8 is way too little for what they wanted to do.
I still love the show and I am glad they could make it, but it is quite a bit sad that the last batch of ep felt so rushed, specially bc at the beginning the tempo was better.
Maybe season 2 we can get the 12 episode season, seeing the success hazbin was
Ot was confirmed they only got the secound season confirmation late into the creation of season 1. (How late we don't know tho)
@@OneofmanyASMRIf the confirmation for season 2 happened close to when we the audience discovered it, that means it was like, a couple of months ago MAX, which, woof, by that point the first season was literally ready to air
Given that hazbin has been making numbers for amazon I hope that season 2 will get more episodes for hopefully more fleshed out episodes and more consistent pacing.
Its not just because of the rewrite, it was also because of the strikes, which is why there was so little promotional material leading up to january, they werent allowed to promote it since thats part of the strike.
The amount Angel got called good boy in this reaction would probably satisfy him haha
For me, at least it feels more like Charlie is not mad about or at angels, Like you said there's no set up for that so I feel like it would be a little bit off. But I feel like it's more of they been together for so long and how could she not tell her, it's the lie that cuts not necessarily what the lie was about.
A nitpick I have, is that Cherri Bomb feels a bit under-explored.
Yes you see her in the pilot, but I think the most you get of her is in the "Addict"-Music-Video, where she is pictured as a kind of "comrade in suffering" for Angel Dust.
But most people won't know about that video when they first pick up the show.
Also most of the "older" stuff isn't 100% canon anymore. Maybe they decided to move the "fellow sufferer" to Husker and Cherri has a new role.
I hope we will see much more of her in Season 2. Because so far, her only role is to be a "bad influence" for Angel and that's a pity for a character that has been there from the start.
I was raised eastern orthodox christian and that church does have the weird, "biblically accurate" angels! So it is also a christian thing, too.
The thing with the fast pacing is that its not ewally a hazbin hotel problem but more just a streaming media problem in general. Everything's like 6 to 8 episodes now and it has killed pacing all over the place.
18:23 I wanna say this is genuinely a huge feature of your content for me, I certainly enjoy looking at things through a critical lens, but upon first viewings I'm definitely the kind of person to just watch things through and sometimes not fully absorb what I'm even watching until my second or third rewatch, so having time to sit and listen to your thoughts on shows has done a lot to make it easier for me to formulate my own ideas. Love everything you do.
I'm such an incredible simp for the "noble queen" type that I even now am desperately hoping Sera will have some kind of redemption, but Skyen makes a real good point about how bad this is 😅
0:40
I see youve already seen the episode
29:45
Skyen gets indignantly angry at Sera for being a NIMBY
37:00
Neat detail I just noticed, Lute (Adam's secretary) and the other excorcists have black halos.
Sera and Adam have the glowy white and gold halos, seemingly because they dont actually go down to kill people.
Sera signs the war order, Adam is a general who stays on the homefront, and Lute leads the Exterminations in hell. And for that she's seemingly 'tainted' that holy crown by being a wrathful person.
So Sera's hands are metaphorically clean of this 'sin', same with Adam. The homefront hasnt seen the war
45:42
Sir Pentious' stack underflow rizz. So bad at flirting that he gets the whole bar
1:06:05
Yea the show really suffers from only having eight episodes, you dont even get time to know that the reason Charlie is betrayed. So all you can assume is that she's racist against angels.
If the show had more time, maybe it would have properly explored why she felt like trust was broken.
Re: gold representing divinity or paradise, the few parts of the Bible that describe heaven in any detail talk about streets paved with gold and similar imagery.
Eyes are a huge part of angels. Many eyes and such. Bayonetta makes use of this description as well when looking at their angel designs.
I truly think sir pentious may hold a top five spot in the best rule of threes joke book this episode
Every time I see an eye metaphor in the context of watching eyes I think of The Great Gatsby, and the ever watchful eyes of Dr. TJ Eckleburg
So, a big part of why I started watching Hazbin Hotel was seeing a RUclips cosplay video of the song "You Didn't Know", I'm really glad the episode itself holds up to my memory of that video. Charlie and Emily's rage is so powerful, I love it.
i'm surprised he didn't mention Angel Dust's sister in the welcome to heaven song
"Adam gets to curse as much as he wants." Adam lives here. Charlie's a visitor.
Me going to the in-laws be like
The fact that to me at least I would have been like "okay let's see what happens in the studio at least see Angel come back to the hotel battered and bruised and have Charlie hit her limit."
Like, Angel Dust and Valentino should have been resolved in the montage we see in the next two episodes.
"Cherri looks different, still british" Huh? is that not the opposite of the case? I think she looks pretty much the same but now instead of American she's an Aussie.
I don't know if Gold is associated with YHWH himself but it's definitely associated with divinity, when the Hebrew's made their new false God when Moses was on the mountain they melted their golden jewlery to make the Calf statue to worship.
1:06:30 ish + 1:14:00 ish etc: I completely agree that this reveal could have been better if they had more time. I'm on the fence, because I love the way Adam reveals that he named Vaggie which makes you go "oh, wow, that really is her name." But I also love the end of this song, how the music goes DUN DUN DUUUN with the reveal, and unfortunately as the viewer we already knew so it's not too much of a big "whoa" to us as it could have been. Like the "dun dun duuuun" could've been so much more effective if it actually was a reveal but it wasn't really.
I'm a big fan of music going along with things happening, the background sound of anything is usually super important to the feel, even silence is effective when done on purpose. I keep most in-game music on in games for this reason.
But either way, I still really enjoyed the episode, 'cause as I said I liked both reveals, funny vs serious I dunno which one I like more. I guess if they didn't do the reveal with Adam we could have just assumed Adam named her and that's why her name is what it is, I dunno :P
just gonna mention it again here since cherri bomb has come back: do give the Addicted music video a watch! it also has some more Cherri bomb than what the pilot gave us!
Yeah, they didn't confirm season two until 1 was already pretty much done. Trying to cram your whole series into 8 episodes? not even the standard 12, or the old standard 24? ouch.
I'm so glad someone agrees that Husk immediately shaming Angel was not the thing to say. Getting off of drugs is NOT that easy. Especially when you get lightly pressured and had a shit day. Ive seen so many people praise him for that and I was like ???? Also it contradicts Loser, Baby.
And I get that in this show, drug use is a sin and taking them will hinder your progress- but then I really think Husk shouldn't have been the one to shame him. Because again, it contradicts Loser, baby. And makes that song feel like it meant nothing. I feel like Husk would be better just letting Angel chose who he wants to be. Loser, or winner. And thats why they get along so well. Maybe they made an agreement off-screen to keep eachother in check, but we don't know that. So it just comes off...real weird.
34:13
Lute was either being homophobic or talking about how Charlie is a demon and Vaggie is (technically still) an angel.
Edit: I also think the scene with Angel and Val isn't the last of Angel's character development. Considering he's still in his contract, there's probably going to be more involving their relationship (especially because of a thing I can't talk about yet) plus there's a high chance that Angel's situation will get worse before it gets better, like many recovery stories.
Based on Vivziepop stating that homosexuality is not a sin in this setting, I’m pretty sure that Lute was referring to the Angel/demon romance.
As much as I’d want another reason to despise Lute, her hatred seems to be purely towards hell and sinners in particular, not gay people.
This show does compress time a bunch, weeks if not months go by between episodes that we don't see due to the nature of it's production.
The show is almost as obsessed with eyes as Master Willem.
Skeyn brings up a good point about the eyes because in an interview Viv was asked about why so many of her desgins have hearts and it is mainly because it is a fixation for her, she just enjoys adding them to her desgins. In a desgin like Valentino's it feels like it serves a purpose but then in others it does feel like it could have some added meaning to it but also it is just something Viv likes to add to the desgins. So, you're not wrong, it is hard to tell if you don't go digging for the lore in the side content.
The show definitely wasn’t intended to be this short, but amazon is going to amazon. Helluva boss on the other hand has all the freedom to be as slow as it wants and booooy do they use that! Yes this is me once again asking if you’re going to react to helluva boss as well 😁
I mean angel is still scared of val, his first instinct was to run but he stood up to him because of nifty, and the key difference between then and now is that he has husk now, someone in his support network that can give him the courage he needs through shared trauma
i can agree of the problem of compression with camilla but i think they handled it well enough here, especially because this is a show, he’s not tied to val because of financial abuse or any other realistic reason people end up in abusive relationships, it’s a soul contract made with hell magic because we’re in hell and everyone’s a furry, so the suspension of disbelief pf him standing up to val 2 episodes later works of me cus
1) his first instinct was to run as soon as he saw val and he was clearly terrified of him still
2) as he says “as our contract says you own me in the studio” which explains why he was able to come to the hotel in the first place, he’s gonna get in trouble later but even when i was in the thick of my abuse touch my mom and i’ll fucking end you, you can do what you want to me and only me so i think it’s still realistic and fine to me personally
For once I have to say I disagree on your take on the Vaggie reveal. Charlie isn't upset that Vaggie is an angel. Charlie does not care the she is an angel for all the reasons you rightfully listed. Charlie has no strong distaste for angels. Charlie trusts everyone und would have given her a second chance without a second thought.
What she is upset by is that the one person that has stood by her side all these years has lied to her for all that time. Charlie has openly expressed how much she believes in second chances but her partner, who supposedly believes in her so much, doesn't trust her to actually extend that sentiment to herself.
Charlie is not upset that Vaggie is an angel.
Charlie is upset that Vaggie lied to her for no reason she can immediately understand.
Yes... but can't he wait until the next episode where this is clarified? Not that this is a spoiler but he will figure it out next episode.
@@aniheartsong5102 I don't think he wouldn't "figure it out" and needs clearification. This is me disagreeing with his read of a scene because even in his initial reaction he points out how Charlie being upset at Vaggie's past doesn't make sense with the set up we have. And he is entirely right because it *doesn't*. When I initially watched the show myself I interpreted the root of Charlie's upset differently because a resentment on her part was never set up instead of assuming that resentment was intended and the show simply negelected to properly set it up.
How you recognised saint peter IMMEDIATELY astounds me
I think St Peter is fairly known in pop culture
He's literally always the one who guards the gate to heaven in Christianity. Why would it be anyone else?
well everyone knows saint peter is at the gates of heaven, and he said that he's in fact not sure if this is saint peter
Peter is such a youth pastor 😂
Cherubs' thing is that they have four faces: a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle. They also have wings, but the exact number is a little up to interpretation.
I love the visceral reaction of Skyen to Sera, it was so satisfying, xD
1:06:40 With the way you've analyzed Charlie's character, do you believe she will be mortified over Vaggie being an angel? In the last episode, she said that Adam was an asshole. JUST Adam, not all angels. I get your point, but even with the season compression, it's fairly simple to assume Charlie's problem isn't going to be learning that Vaggie is an angel. But who she learned it from.
I mean the argument that you can make is that any real focus on vaggie kinda makes the "twist" that she's an angel more obvious.
I know that, as of the time I'm posting this comment, the episode 7 reaction has already been recorded so this shouldn't be a spoiler, and also other people have mentioned this already, but because I have my own take on it I wanna give, I'm gonna reiterate anyway: The reason Charlie gets upset at the end of this episode when Vaggie being an angel is revealed has nothing to do with Vaggie being an angel and everything to do with the fact that she lied. That despite how much Charlie preaches about second chances, and Vaggie professing her belief in Charlie's ideals, that Vaggie STILL didn't feel like she could be open with Charlie about being an angel, and that's why it hurt her so much.
And my own personal take that I want to throw in there as an addendum is... Back in episode 3, Charlie has Vaggie run the trust exercises with the hotel staff/guests because, as Charlie herself put it, Charlie trusts everyone implicitly. Despite the fact that she's lived her whole life in hell, she still trusts and gives people the benefit of the doubt that they're being genuine with her. And so I think the Vaggie reveal is the first time that somebody has actually truly violated that trust she puts in them in a meaningful way, by having the person closest to her feel like they can't be honest with her, and THAT'S what crushes her. Mind you, the part where it's too compressed and needed more time is still accurate, we could've used a few more scenes of Vaggie doubting herself, maybe even trying to confess to Charlie only to chicken out, but having Charlie express a distaste for angels specifically isn't what that plotline needed because that's not really what the issue was about.
15:50 there really is! the heaven city road (specifically and more specifically) is made of gold!
best show problem, just from an emotional standpoint, is "there wasn't enough show to watch". and I think if we didn't know about the industry, didn't have the additional information from behind the scenes about the process of making HH s1, this show might've not been as popular as it is.
I think it's important to remember that Lucifer also agreed to the extermination according to Charlie. So if people want to (rightfully) condemn Sera, they should hold the same thing against Lucifer and not just excuse it because sad and depressed dad is relatable.
I have the impresion that the show hasn't written Sera as harsly as you read her. I feel like the decision was actually hard to her. Of course it's still her fault, she's the one that could have prevented a genocide and she endorsed it. But the intro to the show explains that Lilith was inspiring an uprising, there was an actual threat. I don't think it's an excuse for a genocide, but I think we are supposed to understand that she really felt like there weren't other options.
Calling it "your yearly activities" was infuriating, though. The lenghts people go to ignore the severity of their actions.