The Figure 8 Knot Has Never Failed. Why?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- Get an exclusive Surfshark deal! Enter promo code KYLE for an extra 3 months free at surfshark.deals/kyle
Modern roped rock climbing, one of the nerdiest sports, relies almost entirely on a single type of knot for safety: the figure eight knot. It’s been said that the knot has never failed, and is taught to every beginning climber on the planet. But what makes this knot so strong? Kyle once again explores the physics of his favorite sport.
💪 JOIN [THE FACILITY] for members-only live streams, behind-the-scenes posts, and the official Discord: / @kylehill OR on Patreon: / kylehill
👕 NEW MERCH DROP OUT NOW! shop.kylehill.net
🎥 SUB TO THE GAMING CHANNEL: / @kylehillgaming
✅ MANDATORY LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, AND TURN ON NOTIFICATIONS
📲 FOLLOW ME ON SOCIETY-RUINING SOCIAL MEDIA:
📷 / sci_phile
😎: Kyle
✂: Charles Shattuck
🤖: @Claire Max
🎹: bensound.com
🎨: Mr. Mass / mysterygiftmovie
🎵: freesound.org
🎼: Mëydan
“Changes” (meydan.bandcamp.com/) by Meydän is licensed under CC BY 4.0 (creativecommons.org) 
Наука
*Thanks for watching!* Get an exclusive Surfshark deal! Enter promo code KYLE for an extra 3 months free at surfshark.deals/kyle
you’re straight not strong? you look pretty strong 👀
Interesting… 🤔
7:47
Jared Leto? lol
So that is where the figure 8 leglock got its name from? The more you know.
@@ArchangelExilehad to have been, but what I'm wondering is why they were lifting themselves up in that fashion
I'll never stop making videos about my only other hobby (until I get injured again and rage quit). Also, I lost my brand new harness I'm wearing at the gym! Yay!
Hope u don't get injured again 😅
or get a new hobby, and analyse the shxt out of them too!
Did you check your pockets?
Would you colab with Magnus Midtbø?
More climbing videos pls
I can't believe Kyle Hill is talking about this, since it's knot science... I'll show myself out
Could you knot?
Knot this again!
i read this while watching the video, scrolled back up to keep watching, got the joke, scrolled down for the like. Love it
I can knot stand these puns. But that's mostly because I can knot knot.
oh for five six, enough of the knotty jokes ... there are children present!
Kyle: Says he's not a super villain.
also Kyle: Attends the same climbing gym as Morbing time Joker. 😅
Everyone who watched the video saw it 😊
7:46 for people that missed it
@@kczcb4697 - Did you think that there was a tiny chance that you were the only person who noticed Jared Leto?
@@Siberius- I totally missed him. I did notice the hot chick in the sports bra.
I don’t know what Jared Leto looks like offhand so I appreciate it
Another benefit to the figure 8 knot: it’s easy to relearn by yourself if you’re out of practice. As in, I learned this knot several years ago and then never tied it again until a year or two ago. I was able to remember how to do it after just a couple attempts. Some of the other knots I learned at the same time are completely out of my ability now
True, plus like Kyle says when it's easy to tell if you've done it right which is what you want when you're rusty.
@@aspuzling yes absolutely, the first 1-2 times I immediately knew I’d gotten it wrong and would need to try again. And once I got it right, I again knew immediately that I’d tied it correctly
But the easiest knot to remember how to tie tells a story about a bunny, a hole, and a tree 😉
@@Jester_The_Jynxster Unfortunately, the basic Bowline is unsuitable for climbing. You need to add some type of finish, which would not be easy to remember after 1.5 years of non-use.
@@jakemccoy I was taught the Yosemite (or maybe it's the Scots? I don't recall which was which) finish with the addition of a fox chasing the rabbit around the tree and down the hole. I've always found it the easiest knot to remember because of the story that's stuck with me since I was a kid. If you're good it can be tied with one hand, it doesn't bind when it's time to remove it. With a bowline, a half hitch, and a truckers hitch you can solve most rope-related problems that come up in life 😂
I am a long time climber and an eagle scout. I can tie this knot in my sleep. It's an excellent knot. Kyle thank you for taking the time to do such a scientific approach to it.
I tie a double bowline knot when climbing. You just follow it around like you do with a fig 8.
Incredibly strong, reliable and IMPORTANTLY you can whip hard on it and still undo the knot unlike with a fig 8.
It's also very easy to check. 3 double, loop and a stopper knot. It's easy to check like a fig 8
I'm an eagle scout too, I've never used a figure 8 know outside of climbing, which to be fair is because I use the square knot or 2 half hitches for basically everything, but I've never seen anyone else use it outside of climbing either
@@kevincronk7981 you'll see it on almost every sailboat where people actually sail. It's used as a stopper knot to keep the bitter end of line from slipping through a fairlead. If you aren't using it on a working boat, you'll correct that problem the first time you have to replace your halyard or get whipped by an unsecured sheet.
@@supernoodles908 I have it on good authority that the bowline isn't stronger than the figure 8 and is in fact a fair bit weaker. The main advantage of a bowline is you can pretty much always untie a properly tied bowline. The disadvantage in strength probably isn't all that significant given how good modern ropes are, but... I disagree on ease of checking it. I could check a figure 8 drunk, stoned, and after 36 hours of no sleep. Couldn't do that with a bowline.
@@TysonJensenlook at the chart in the video. Also that's a single bowline knot. My friends and I at uni (we do material science) tested different knots. We found the version of the bowline I tie is 0%-4% weaker than a fig 8 :) the single bowline we found was 5%-9% weaker. Now this also varies depending on the direction of the dead end leaving the knot.
Anyways, a max reduction of 4% over a fig 8 and being able to untie, worth it.
Also remember most falls are way way way below the Kn capacity of the rope and knot :)
So basically super good enough
For those interested, a double overhand radium release fisherman's blood hitch is a Frankenstein's monster of, like, four different knots XD
Yes, I know that knot and it falls under my area of expertise, the knifeknot. When in doubt, break the knife out.
This is what they should call the reef knot+double fisherman that I used to use on a double rope repel. (it is essentially a normal reef knot with the tails tied with double overhand safety knots). It is great for double rope repels because it has the security of the double fisherman, but the reef knot tied in the middle means that the knot doesn't lock up and remains easy to untie (the reef knot takes the load, and reef knots don't lock). Reef knots don't have great rope strength retention, but this doesn't matter on a repel because the forces aren't dynamic.
Reef knots alone are dangerous due to the tails reversing, but it can't happen if you tie the tail back around the loading end with a safety on both sides. The knot is definitely a frankenstien's monster, but is great because I never have to untie a locked double fisherman again.
Ironically, the Fisherman's Bend is another knot used in climbing/abseiling - its used to loop prussic ropes.
(I was originally taught that the Fisherman's Bend and the Blood Knot were the same thing - thanks to research after this vid, I now know differently)
@@insertphrasehere15 Um... if you don't mind me asking... What do you have against a plain "Flat Double Overhand"??? Even with a second "snugged up" to keep it from walking off, give 'em sufficient tails and they don't generally turn into a "pain in the ass snarl" even after dozens of rappels... at least in my experience.
OR on "Tagline" Rappels, a Sheet Bend can be sufficient for joining, and pick your poison for the "Stopper" so you're never "weight on" the Tag... ;o)
Hrmmm sounds like a classic booger knot to me
Make an alien, stab him in the eye, then choke him, go through the loop, and follow the rope :)
I work in the fire service, and the figure 8 and the alpine knots are my favorites to tie and use alike. Awesome video, as always! Thank you!
Alpine butterfly is in my hands now, I struggled for a little bit but now I think it's stuck for life. I love how tying and untying it doesn't need the tag end.
the random cameo by jared leto was unexpected LOL
I know right? I scrolled way down to find this comment, and I"m so happy to have found it.
I'm so surprised almost nobody is mentioning that
dude is in his 50 and look at him, wow
Fucking guy was probably trying to take over the instructors job.
I need a timestamp
This is the main knot that we use in firefighting, rope rescues, and high angle rescues. It's simple and reliable.
I can knot stop watching your videos. You are easily tied with the most lauded science communicators we have.
You weave together such amazing videos, kyle.
I use a bowline for climbing because it can be untied after falling on it and is super good enough for any fall that isn't going to break you.
The reason the double eight is better has nothing to do with strength and all to do with ease of verification. (Which is mentioned in the video). Vs the bowline which can be tied wrong in a way which still looks correct
7:47 unexpected Jared Leto cameo, presumably starting a rock climbing cult?
right wtf? So random.
You can tell Kyle is a veteran climber not based on his knowledge, but based off his use of athletic tape😂
So, veteran climber = climbing injuries?
@@guardrailbitersounds more like a rookie mistake
He didn't dress the knot....total climber
A2 pulley tape bb
I wasn't trying to be snarky (for once).
Are finger tendon injuries essentially inevitable beyond a certain point in climbing?
I’m so happy to see Xyla and Kyle doing stuff together! It’s like “Worlds are colliding Jerry!” But in a good way!😀
Xyla?
Xyla Foxlin?
People were freaked by the edk because it’s just an overhand and so it seems to simple and it is more likely to capsize and roll when not properly dressed and tightened down, especially when loaded for a rappel. The edk is still the best knot for a rappel though due to other factors besides strength.
Fellow climber here: I've been climbing for the better part of 5 years, both on the gym and on natural rock, and not once has the figure 8 failed me not even when I fell 10 meters on a 7c+. Its trully fascinating the power this simple knot which, with if you climb on a regular basis, anyone can do even with their eyes closed.
How did you fall that far :o that must've been some terrible bolt positioning. Unless it was trad?
I've never climbed a day in my life, but can tie multiple knots with my eyes closed. Climbing isn't the only place knowledge of knots comes in handy
@@kimbrolyy 10 meters is pretty standard for sport in most areas I've climbed across the US. Trad 10 meters, I'd be questioning my placements and thinking should have brought more pieces lol
@@aurelius8439 Climbed a few slabs where there just isn't anywhere for gear, huge run outs and tiny crimps 😬 makes me cringe just thinking about it
@@aurelius8439 in the UK the standard distance between bolts is around 3m. So if you are fully at the next clip and then fall that would be around 6m, plus any slack&delay from belayer. Though falls like that don't happen often I'd say. That's just some quick maths I did haha
The "not everyone can be as jacked as you" is pretty funny considering that the women who does Aria voice IS actually jacked as hell (she's named Claire Max)
Good video. Some thoughts about your knots... the knot you demonstrated is a figure eight rethread. It's commonly used in climbing because you want a direct attachment to the belay loop on your harness. In other forms of rigging we use a figure eight on a bight. You can tie the knot with the loop in it quickly and easily by doubling up the end (the bight). You can also use a figure eight bend to join two ropes. We've used figure eight knots to anchor rappels down 900' of rope and to join long sections or rope together for a long rappel where a single rope wasn't practical. Like many others, we trust our lives to the figure eight knot. Last thought... the figure eight knot is strong and pretty foolproof so there's no need to tie a stopper knot on the free end as shown in the video, but it often makes people feel better to do so.
Some great extra info, definitely distinctions I never knew about. As a climber the main reason I always have the stopper knot at the end is actually just to prevent the loose end from getting caught up and causing issues while climbing tough routes. But I know a lot of people do worry about the possibility of the figure 8 failing for some reason.
When joining two ropes which need to be retrieved from the bottom, e.g. canyoning, the EDK is often used because it orients itself and slides over the rock edge easier than the Fig8 or Double Fishermans which stand more chance of getting stuck. But damn it looks dodgy. I'm a Fig.8 man myself, as you only need to learn he one knot to do multiple things, and as you said, it's easy to teach and inspect.
The conection between my two life passions, science and climbing, the perfect kind of video
I've done no climbing, yet watched dozens of hours of climbing and climbing gear test videos.
I hope you make this a whole series.
Yeah.... don't climb. Watch every HowNot2 video.
non-climbers who binge HowNot2 gang!
Get to a climbing gym, it's a lot of fun and a great workout!
@@rickgreer7203i dont think i will be watching 468 videos just to find out why i shouldnt do a hobby
@@Xarros1The point of HowNot2 is to help learn how the gear works so that you can use it more safely, and trust it. Not many things will clear your mind like climbing.
Add that modern pulleys often have a square profile trench where the rope runs. The theory here is that it allows the rope to deform and flatten out. This way the difference in length between the inner diameter and the outer diameter of the rope will be smaller causing better distribution of the forces in the rope. This was first becoming important with modern high strength low stretch artificial fibers being used in the kernmantle ropes. Among the first name brand fibers that had these properties were Kevlar. In the late 80's to early90's this was the magic material in yachting, soon followed by Mylar for sails. Kevlar was used for both stays and halyards as well as for main sheet and the jib sheet.
The halyards usually have between one and three pulleys while the main sheet can have four or even five to achieve a mechanical advantage. With old school materials that would stretch there wasn't a problem using pulleys with a U shaped trench. But with the introduction of Kevlar pulleys with a square bottom trench was a necessary development.
Switching to Kevlar was done to save weight and gain rigidity in the standing rig as well as in the running rig. Weight up high in the mast is something you want to avoid. The mast is a huge lever and a kilo up at the top makes a huge difference in the stability of the boat., so if you can get away from steel wire in the standing rig and steel cables in the running rig fifteen to 25 meters up in the mast it makes a difference.
With old style laid ropes or even solid braids the shape of the trench in the pulleys really don't matter all that much, but then you switch to using a kernel and mantle construction this changes.
I’ve been binge-watching your videos. Love the content presented in an entertaining manner. I don’t climb much now at 67, but enjoyed it for years and served as a rope rescue technician in the fire service.
I was overwhelmed with the math during my rope rescue course. It's crazy!
The overhand knot is used to join two ropes for abseiling the full length of the rope. In that use the load is very low. It was known as the “European Death Knot” partly because it looks so week compared to the fisherman’s bend which was used prior to the adoption of the overhand knot and also due to the risk of a poorly tied knot with short tails rolling off the end of the rope. However this is now the best practice knot for that use due to its flat profile which minimises jamming during retrieval for multi pitch abseils.
As to the top anchor in a gym UK climbing walls just use a big fat heavy carabiner or merlon for the top anchor as the rope is way stronger than is needed so even with a 50% reduction in strength you still have a safety factor of over 10 for top roping as this is again a low load application.
A friend who is an AMGA guide recently informed me that while the edk is perfectly safe for repels, using a figure 8 bend, not a Flemish bend but just a figure eight bend is actually prone to failures of the rope sliding through. I wonder if that's specifically because the amount of bend in the rope is less and so it allows the ropes to slide past each other more readily.
To me, it doesn't make much sense fussing about the bends in the knot when you are going to bend it going over your harness anyway.
Can confirm: climbing back up an Alpine face to retrieve a stuck rappel rope because your partner insisted on using a double fisherman instead of an EDK really sucks.
@CFEF44AB1399978B0011 One reason we use the flat overhand (aka EDK) to connect rope for a rappel is that it is very unlikely to "flip" under that kind of load, whereas a figure 8 is very prone to failure by flip. It's best practice to back up your flat overhand with a second one just in case though. Both knots are plenty strong enough.
This is all a very specific use case and has more nuance than a RUclips comment, but that's the summary. Source: I hold a basic SPI cert from the AMGA.
wait, uk climbing gyms use a top anchor and belay rather than a standered here in the states, double rap around a metal pipe for the tr?
Luckily EDKs are primarily used in rappelling which probably has the lowest forces involved in any climbing activity :)
Edit: also, I believe the main reason for the thing at the top of indoor climbing walls is to increase friction and decrease the consequence of a light person belaying a heavy person. The climbing gym really wouldn't want to deal with an accident where a 90 lbs belayer got yeeted into the ceiling then decked from 50 feet up after their 300 lbs climber finishes their climb and sits on the rope and also decks from 50 feet up because their belayer didn't weigh enough
We can always count on Kyle to teach us the ropes! Really hard not to make a pun but glad I did knot.
I am a climber as well and love this climbing physics content. Thanks
Love watching hownot2 for practical testing and breaking of knots and gear.
I want to re-dress that knot so much, there is a half twist in there that would drive me crazy.
Another fun feature of the figure 8 to look at is if your load strand (first bend) is on the inside or the outside. After loading the knot in a fall it's a bit easier to untie if that load strand is on the inside.
thank you. Seeing the un-dressed knot in the thumbnail hurt me on the inside
I'm in love with this knot. Learned it at 16 working at a climbing tower, and have carried it with me ever since. It's how my cords are tied for storage
7:47 Was that a Jared Leto cameo?
I had to scroll way longer than I expected for this, maybe he is just so good of an actor he can blend in with the crowd seamlessly 😅
I do Rope Access and this is one of our favorite knots as well. We also use a figure 9 very often as well
care, probably scam attempt
I’d be interested to see the physics behind splices. I’ve heard that a properly done eye splice will maintain 95% of the ropes strength.
Splices can hold square ringed ships of the lines rigging together, your not Gona do that with a knot, especially in old school ropes
I've never had to worry about this because I like rock climbing but the moment I put on a harness it irrationally activates my fear of heights because my brain thinks if I need safety precautions it's dangerous, so I stick to bouldering which is more damgerous but in my head feels safer
For me it's the opposite because I know a harness is there to stop me falling and I'm completely comfortable with mine now funnily enough I don't like autobelays as I don't like the fact there's a mechanical system to lower me I prefer having a person belay me which is honestly so backwards
@@Novau.u lol i get why and i probably would too but its so dumb. its like hmmm laws of physics or a person, which one is more infallible? then you choose person
Someone else who understand the feeling. I also feel far more nervous lead climbing than bouldering, mainly because in bouldering I know I'm going to fall and so there's a feeling of acceptance and knowing there's a cushioned landing at least. With ropes something in my brain always tells me that something might go wrong, even though it's probably safer.
@@evanward9739 If only Newton hadn't gone and invented gravity, then we wouldn't need to worry about any of this 😞
@@rowanangelbeck8840 I've been leading for bout a month and im the same when I'm about to fall i just strat thinking hmmmm whats the safety margin on this harness, how long has that bolt been there, has it taken too many falls? whats the chances of a fault rope. I do prefer lead over top rope as it my own rope I know its looked after and I know howmany falls its taken but still shit myself when i feel my hand giving out when going for the clip
I didn't know you were I climber, I got into the sport this year in Jan and I love it. I've lost 40lbs just climbing and now I'm climbing 5.12a and trying to get better every day.
12 after 8 months??? Were you a gymnast before or something (or is the setting soft)? Careful on the pulleys and don't move too much too fast. Be sure to build up your soft tissue.
@@aurelius8439 No I didn't do anything before climbing, I was a gym quitter you know those that go to the gym for 2 weeks and never again. I'm climbing that good now because I go 4 times a week for 2 hours a day and do mix sessions of climbing and bouldering. I'm kind of obsess with the sport because it's finally something I really enjoy to the point that not only I have not quit it but trying to go more and more often and get upset when I have to do chores or other stuff and miss a day of climbing.
@@apo180 that's super awesome!! Great climbing journey. Definitely watch Kyle's video on climbing injuries though, and I'd strongly recommend not climbing to your redpoint every session.
I have two pulley injuries and they massively set you back for a good amount of time. Pace yourself and you'll keep crushing and staying healthy!
5.12a in one year is great!
booya
Always cool to get a climbing vid as it’s usually something new to me. Keep up the great work!
Went rappelling for the first time a few weeks ago, and the instructor tied this knot. Very cool!
ARIA teasing Kyle never gets old. I hope to see her more like in the mantis blade episode
We getting more cyberpunk ?
Mantis blades are cool, but I'm more curious of the super jump and gorilla punchers. On how they work, mantis blades certainly look cooler
Thank you Kyle for making physics both interesting and easy to understand!
I love the bowline and rolling hitch, my favorite knots for sailing
In the Fire service we call that knot a figure 8 follow through we commonly use it to secure the rope around objects such as trees and posts to set up anchor points
This really feels like a smarter every day kind of subject material. I love it.
Super cool super interesting! As someone who trained at college in outdoor education I’ve got a couple of safety points for you Kyle!
1: the space between the knot and the harness (the loop attached to the harness) should be as small as possible; it’s a possible entrapment issue. Your hands or even head could get stuck in the loop and when the rope pulls tight it’s gonna be difficult to escape from that!
2. The second “stopper knot” that tidied up the loose tail of the fig eight is debated as to whether it is necessary but fig 8 knots have been known to slip slightly as they become tight and “seated”. Not a bad idea to put the stopper knot as close to the fig 8 as possible as it will prevent this.
Other than that; awesome work. Stay safe. Check your knot. Lock your karabiners 🧗
What is the universe telling me? I'm watching so many climbing videos since I did my Top Rope course 2 months ago and now my favorite science channel makes another climbing video... Love it
If by "the universe" you mean "one man-made algorithm"...
@@JarieSuicune of course I do
Would love to see you collab with HowNot2 and his breaking things
I’m really at the end of my rope with these topics Kyle.
Knot so clever this time
I watched the video right to the bitter end! 😀
God bless a thoughtful gentleman such as you Kyle Hill keep the videos coming and I will try to keep up if I can. Interesting stuff there Hill. God bless.
Definitely a very strong knot. I always have trouble with it binding though, even with a Yosemite finish. So I started using a retraced bowline some years ago and have never looked back.
The figure 8 is my go to for a non cinching loop for fishing.
It’s also easy to tie on such fine line
Why have I never though about that?
Great video and topic! I’m fond of the double Bee knot but the figure 8 is a mainstay in my knotting knowledge. Quick tip: when you start passing the tail back through your 8, it’s cleaner looking if you push the bottom stand over so your rope goes up between the first curve and the rope leading to your harness.
The problem with the European Death Knot is that it can easily get caught on edges and when it does it can get stuck and/or start coming undone.
Hey, you're awesome. Your content is awesome, and you are very appreciated. I send your videos to my friends all the time. No clue if they actually watch them, but I sure send them. Keep being you.
Great that you're doing climbing vids!
Maybe you could do a video about load transportation through the body inthe event that your foot slips from a hold, you fall a little but catch yourself with one arm that's still on a hold. Sne applies for dynos.
I've had that kind of fall happen to me quite some times and I always look to it that my arms are never fully stretched out already when it's imminent. I have a strong belief that falling on/catching yourself with a fully extended arm leads to all these snapped shoulders and other stuff you can see in bouldering gyms every week.
I think you're exactly the right man to make a sciency video out of this!
Didnt expected the Jared Leto cameo lol
Knot the video I was expecting. Very cool.
One of the first knots you learn in fire service high angle rescue and a great improvement over the old bowline we used back in the 70's.
That knot makes perfect sense to me in terms of trying to balance the opposing forces. Nice
Figure 8 is such a good knot. With all the varieties, it could almost be one knot to rule them all.
me and my partner started climbing, me for 4 months now and her for 2. It's an incredible sport and an incredible workout. We are changing out lives by committing to it. :) Its a great feeling watching someone you love put their head to something hard and succeed. Something we will be doing with this sport our whole lives. Truly incredible that when proper technique and routine safety protocols are taken climbing can be pretty safe.
I would love learn about the properties of the bowline I have used it for years in sailing and climbing because of its ability to take repeat shock loads but still be able to be untied without needing tools.
It's great for sailing, but not suited for climbing. Its ability to be easily untied means that it can shake loose when climbing. With modern ropes it's even worse, since there's less friction than with natural fibres. If you use it for climbing, you need to at least add a stopper knot.
The Bowline's biggest problem in climbing is that it can be hard to visually check at a quick glance. There are several ways to tie the bowline wrong or a much weaker version of it that appear very similar. Also, if you don't really pretension the knot I have seen it come untied with repeated loading and unloading.
Comes down to the initial turn... There's two points in the bowline (rabbithole and around the tree) that take strain and bend pretty hard. Neither one is particularly "kept" under strain, so while they do technically reduce the rope's over-all strength, it's generally (at least as told to me) only around the 20-ish%... You'll get by just fine so long as your ropes aren't especially weathered or aged. As mentioned in the video, modern rope is technologically advanced to tremendous strength ratings... BUT for the longevity of a climbing rope, subjecting it to bowlines just isn't approved by most alpine outfitters or clubs. I still pretty dutifully LOVE the thing, myself, though, and nobody's ever called me out for using it at the anchors for setting a line to rappel down and then climb back up on return (which is 98% of any climbing I'm involved in anyway). ;o)
Yeah, as a guy with a water background more than a climbing one, that still is my go to loop, but the 5% strength savings on the figure 8 and the ease of double checking makes a lot of sense to me.
@@junkice6930 you need to use a stopper knot with the bowline. Double fisherman is popular as it's easy to tie and check. In my experience, incorrectly tied versions will untie themself so fast that it would be hard to miss when using a climbing rope.
I haven't so far seen something that looks and behaves like a properly tied bowline with double fisherman stopping knots yet is something different that will slowly become undone. If you have some example pictures to shared I'd be happy to check it out so I know what to look for.
I've heard of variants of bowline being used as alternatives to stopping knots though. Those I would not want to climb with as they seem less obviously safe and harder to check.
You know your audience is captivated by the science and you that nobody is mentioning the casual Jared Letto behind you.
I searched a lot for this comment
Also Xyla Foxlin, but shes not as famous.
Hey man, amazing video, been into climbing for a while but top rope and leading still are hard for me due to my fear of height and falling, understanding the physics helps me a lot on my quest of trying to trust gear, would welcome more of these type of content to help me conquer my objective of climbing a big wall without absolute terror, keep being amazing man
care, probably scam attempt
my other hobby is fiber work-knitting, crochet, etc. splices (russian join, weaver’s knot, magic join…) are always weaker. i’m knot fascinated!
Awesome video, I have been rock climbing for a few years not and would love a detailed video on a bowline for tying in, I tend not to use a figure 8 unless im in a gym situation and i need to be checked by a partner who may not have the understanding of knots to check a bowline.
Kyle, if someone's gonna Morb in the background of the video please warn us next time
I thought I was crazy because no one else mentioned the Jared Leto cameo at 7:47
Bit of a Jared Letdown if you ask me. Kind of like the movie Morbius@@mandarinspoon
@mattmckernan3133 what do you mean nobody else mentioned it? Did you actually read any comments?
More knot, string, and harmonics science! It's approachable yet also as complex as you want to make it. There's so much depth to these topics and various fields of application. And so many puns.
LOL @ the face you made when Leto showed up! 🤣😂
If anyone is wondering, that extra knot above the figure 8 is used to tie off the extra rope to keep it secure and out of the way. It is called a “safety knot” but actually doesn’t really add safety.
Edit - made much more accurate thanks to the replies
More practically (in lead climbs), it's good rope management so when you clip the rope you don't grab the wrong strand and waste your energy/ risk a fall. Tucking the end back into the figure 8 has the same effect and I prefer that since it's less bulky.
@@johncao6516 Makes sense. This is what I’ve always heard for top rope but lead climbing is a whole other beast. Props to you, I’m still not ready to dive into that yet.
There are so many reasons for this "extra" knot (commonly dubbed "safety" knot) and remains a point of debate -- even among my fellow AMGA SPI friends. What you're alluding to is correct, a single overhand after a retraced figure 8 is completely pointless. All but the most marginal of tails after a retraced figure 8 will ensure the 8 will not self-untie (e.g. opposite of self-tighten). Calling it "safety" is a misnomer and in my mind harmful from a mental safety perspective.
A properly tied double-overhand can function as an added redundancy to a figure 8 and more properly fit a "safety" knot term--though again it is really just adding an extra layer of redundancy to an arguably already redundant system--depending on where / how you define the single point of failure. It can and does absolutely aid in rope management to keep excess tail out of the way especially when leading in any variety.
A PROPERLY tied Yosemite tuck/finish (which has several names) can also aid in rope management and have even seen folks double down on redundancy and add a double overhand after it. However, it is tied improperly much more often; hence why most gyms and outdoor instructors chose to ban it. Improperly tied, it can and will catastrophically fail in certain load conditions (i.e. capsize). Also, you do lose some of the strength advantages of the figure 8 this way; though the loss is marginal.
TLDR; "safety" knot is a dumb term and unncessary. A figure 8 alone does the trick. Also, if you think a figure 8 is too hard to untie, get stronger or go do crossfit.
I was always taught to tie the stopper so there figure 8 is not right on the end in case there's slippage, and to store the excess bit. But you can climb without the stopper, it's not essential.
it's also tied wrong. Idealy it should be a stopper knot (double overhand stopper) and it should be sitting snugly with the eight itself. This is to ensure that you don't have a fragment of parallel rope, where one of the strands does nothing and clipping it or anything to it could prove disastrous
Actually it's not quite as ubiquitous as you imply, the bowline and double bowline are also quite popular especially in Europe.
Retracted bowline gang rise up! I only use a double figure 8 in gyms since they require it. I much prefer the retraced bowline.
“Why don’t YOU just run the ad please? Thank you”. 😂😂. I love the way he said that!
There's a surprising amount of science in knots, I've been watching a lot of videos about ancient India over the years and it's fascinating how they carved their knowledge of knots into stone art in their temples along with complicated mathematical & astronomical symbols & patterns.
Kyle Hill: *Makes video on knots*
Veritasium: *Hold my beer*
Huhu! Quick heads up: there are different safety rules in different countries. In Europe we don't tie a knot behind the figure 8 and the tie in loop (of you can call it this way) where the rope is tied in the belay loop must not be so big that you can stick your hand through. Both have safety concerns connected to it.
Just wanted to mention this ...
Thanks for the video anyway! Cheers!!
In the UK people have the stopper knot
@@kimbrolyy above the figure eight? Why not just keep the tail short enough?
In the Alps the fear goes that you clip in between the figure 8 and the stopper accidentally in case of emergency or something and thereby risking fall/death.
Funny how things are done differently in different countries and areas.
Cheers!
@@ChrisSmith-lk2vq this is only anecdotal, but the justification for putting a single/double overhand after a retraced figure 8 that I've heard is that some insurance company got it into their heads that it makes the system safer and then required it at every gym. It doesn't.
There are other reasons such as ensuring the tail is long enough (single), adding redundancy (double), or just because the instructor at X gym was told they had to teach it that way. Standards even vary across Europe, but your reason is 100% valid and is a concern, i.e. clipping between the 8 and whatever other knot.
Personally with a figure 8, I use a double overhand and keep it with no slack between it and the 8 OR a double bowline with a redundant double overhand inside (by the belay loop) -- assuming always with a harness that has a belay loop, i.e. non-Alpine style.
@@ChrisSmith-lk2vq That's pretty much how I do it in the US. I make the tail short enough (>= 12cm) to not need an overhand stopper and also leave very little space between the knot and my harness hardpoints, then add one extra loop that rests against the figure-8 to redirect the tail back toward myself. The result is much more clean and ensures the tail stays out of my way while lead climbing.
@@REstrACIA I assume you're talking yosemite finish?
Also for everyone else: Double overhand used to be the standard as it was an easy way to visually make sure the climber had enough tail for the figure 8 to be safe (international best practice is 15cm.) It was supposed to be tied with a gap between the knot and stopper no bigger than the width of a palm, and tail after the knot the same.
Now, best practice is to not use the stopper as many people left too much of a gap between the two knots, resulting in many issues when clipping above the double overhand.
But make sure whatever finish you're using, you have that 15cm :)
i used to climb and work in heights as part of my profession in construction. its imperative to state that the parallels on the figure 8 should never cross each other as that can fail. That was really interesting learning the science behind it though. great video!
Perfect timing. My recent hyper fixation has been on knotty stuff
The figure 1 through 7 knots aren't going to be happy about this.
Wait just a minute. . The European death knot, or the flat overhand knot, uses an overhand, not a figure eight. In fact, a figure eight can walk down the line when cross loaded. Don't use a figure 8 with the EDK, and always use long tails with a stopper on that particular configuration.
yh i noticed that mistake as well euro death not/ flat overhand is bomber. flat fig eight can capsize and is sketchy af.
love this cross over! climb on, Kyle!
Awesome video! I was really hoping for a Kalab with how not to on this one
Jared Leto is in the background does that count
@ 7:46 ..............was that Jared Leto?
I think so
What was Jared Leto doing back there? 😂 7:40
RIGHT?? that was such a weird moment
Hey Kyle! I'm curious if you've ever heard about "Hard is Easy" or "How Not 2" here on RUclips; both do super deep dives into all things climbing science, and they've taught me all I know!
Love the rock climbing content on the side of the usual content
I used to climb a lot as a kid and still remember how they explained how to tie the knot to us:
"Imagine you want to swim in a lake. So take the hanging rope and guide the end over the rope so that you form a lake. Now you, the end of the rope, go behind a tree, the part of the rope pointing up, change into your swimming trunks and run back out to JUMP into the lake. Then pull tight. Now loop the end through your harnish and have it ride the eight back like a rollercoaster, through all ups and downs, spirals and tunnels, always sticking to it like to a rail. Once you are done, check if every visible part is doubled up, if it looks like an eight from both sides and if, starting from the knot upwards, you count eight visually seperate rote segments from each side. Then check your partners."
Kyle x Magnus when? 👀
The ‘European death knot’ is actually stronger in the application that it is used for than the figure of eight. Few people would ever tie in with it but when used to join two ropes together the fig 8 rolls at a much lower force than the EDK (more correctly, the offset overhand bend).
My new favorite YT channel, if only for the simple fact that Kyle is a nerdy climber.
Just a few months ago I heard of a near accident, where the figure 8 knot failed. It was tied into a brand new, kinda stiff rope with a very smooth surface and on the way down the climber (a 5 year old kid) wriggeld wildly around, jumped away from the wall and stuff like that and when the kid was back on the ground, the knot was almost completely undone. There was only one single strand of rope still inside of the figure 8 that prevented the free fall.
Since then, the father **always** ties off the end of the rope that is sticking out of the figure 8, which is considered not neccessary where I live.
Surfshark steals your data
Proof? Not denying, just curious…
All VPNs do lol it's literally a man in the middle attack
Pretty much all VPNs with a “no logging” policy are full of shit.
Every company you pass data through sells your information.
You need a peer reviewed paper in this crowd. Rightfully so.
I think its so strong because it has sideways 8 strength.
There's another category of knot. Fishermen figured out several decades ago that the strongest knots use the same principle as a Chinese finger trap (the harder you pull, the tighter it grips). Instead of the first bend in the knot taking up the load, the line is doubled back and wrapped around the straight section before the knot. The wraps act like the finger trap, spreading the load over a length of the straight section of line ahead of the knot (this section can spiral a bit depending on line thickness). e.g. Bimini Twist, FG knot, Alberto knot.
Tied properly they're 100%, or more than 100% the strength of the line (due to the load being distributed between both the straight line and the wraps). I've frequently seen lines snap away from the knot, with the knot left intact. (The same principle is used directly with hollow braided line. You use a needle to insert a length of monofilament line inside the braid. There is no knot. When it's under tension, the braid creates a finger trap gripping the monofilament preventing it from slipping out.)
Fisherman knot is also used in climbing. You use the double fisherman to make a loop in order to make a prusik on your rope, for instance when you want to rappel down it acts as a break.
Bro, you're one of the best creators on the platform. Thanks for the interesting but most importantly entertaining content!
As a climber for about 4 years I can confirm that the figure 8 is rock solid and that if done correctly it’s the last thing to fail
Seeing a lot of comments and nobody is pointing out Morbius himself at 7:47
Did you actually read any of them? He was mentioned MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE people
LOL! That was hysterical banter.
Oddly enough, this is knot the first piece of recommended rope related content I've seen today, and the other one was on Facebook.
First knot I had to learn as a firefighter. Very good Knot. Double 8 on a bight makes a good anchor, or a nice easy way to lift an axe to a roof.