I came to the same conclusion a few years back, though I thought there would be a completely different sequence upon pulling the final needle if you got the Happy End (more on this later). I also think the unused sprites of Porky's escape pod shattering and him possibly dying might also have something to do with a choice. The only hole in our theories are the fact that Lucas is the one who pulls the final needle, and he would not be present for the Mecha Drago choice (unless those screenshots of him with Flint in the forest from the N64 version are from Chapter 1), so how could it affect his heart? The dragon itself was asleep, so it couldn't have seen it either. And there's another kindness event in Chapter 2 with Duster alone. Lucas couldn't have known about it. Anyway, now that we're on the same page, there's one more piece to this puzzle I haven't been able to figure out: the Bird of Light. We know nothing about this thing except that it's the opposite of the Dark Dragon. What's it's relationship to the Egg of Light? Is it also asleep under the islands? Was that going to be the thing that woke up if a good-hearted person pulled the needles instead of the Dark Dragon in an earlier version of the script? If there's one Mother 3 mystery I want the answer to above all others, it's this one.
So, this is my theory: Lucas is ALSO hollow/blank, like Claus. Lucas has experienced a horrible trauma, and then for a long time after was basically alone as his dad spent all his time searching fruitlessly for his brother, and the other villagers either repeating empty platitudes or just ignoring him in favor of their own business. He's numb through and through, though I think that PK Love (or whatever it is) is his own power, granted from his connection to Hinawa. Now, about Claus: He's dead... Completely dead, soulless, and merely a proxy for Porky to jerk this way and that. It isn't until the very end when the spirit of his mother appears that Claus regains any autonomy, and even then he is forced to attack, so he chooses to attack in the way that won't hurt his brother. Lucas is the same, in my theory, though his body yet lives. His numbness makes him a vessel for the player to act through, and we can similarly play horrible games, like repeatedly ramming into walls for no reason or flirting with death and ruin for the sake of fun. In much the same way, we control Flint as he desperately searches for his family (and suppresses his emotions as hard as he can), Salsa as he is abused by Fassad (and suppresses his emotions as well, while trapped)... Even the short time we control Duster, he swallows his emotions, particularly his fear of upsetting his abusive father, to get a job done. In summation, the original idea is just a big game that the player and Porky are playing, using the people of Tasmily as background and the twins (and their followers) as pawns. Lucas and Claus have no emotions of their own most of the time, and when they do, we (and Porky) lose control. The Kindness Stat would have served to represent what sort of controller we are, regardless of whether Lucas was the vessel we used to carry out our will.
Claus being empty and without a soul seems like Flowey from Tobey Fox's undertale. Honestly Undertale is so confusing, it's nice to learn and read some stuff from Mother series as it way less complicated and as Tobey Fox's inspiration would explain a lot of confusing things that he created and make it actually easier to understand. Lifeless Cyborg Chimera puppet Claus makes so much more sense to not have soul, and how he slowly regains it during final fight, only enough to make an attack that robotic part of him would consider deficient and not use, with him being forced to attack choosing to sacrafice himself next time he is forced to attack, rarher than hurting his bother, than whatever it is Monster with lost soul stuck in the Flower but living on with help of his dead fiends's determination, not meant to be mean to it, but still kinda ridiculous, Flowey could possibly a puppet of someone else too if Tobey though it through so deep. Maybe him being inspired by this series actually good because it would open world of Mother series to players of his games if they want to understand his games better, will search for links with other games series and in result will find even more raw engaging and better expierence that inspired him in the first place, even if Mother 3 is kinda unfinished and barely has a completed plot, it's still is a very good game, and a very fun, tearfull and heartbreaking expierence. Tobey definitely took a lot of inspiration from Claus battle and Mother series music, and I'd like to know just how much of his music took something out music themes of Mother series, while actually really enjoying it on it's own in the process.
Charecters could be empty, rendering them controllable by player because of them burning out and lacking any excitement to search for morality, fullfilment and purpose in life other than simple objectives they currently pursue and leaving them relatively empty, especially Lucas and Flint. They havd expierenced hardships that would burn them out faster than any other charecters, if not for that we may never have been able to control them.
Well recent findings have images of Flint being with Lucas and the group after clube titiboo so my guess is that the choice you made with Flint in the prolog and Lucas in his chapters would effect that interaction. Along with Duster's actions in chapter 2 he probably would stop Flint from leaving forcing him to hear Lucas out and then he would stay understanding that Lucas won't stop searching either and so he agrees to tag along to make sure Lucas is safe thus Flint would become the 5th party member abd his presence that early would have most likely caused Claus to start remembering things earlier. I say this because there are files which when made into picture files are Claus with a player controlled battle sprite like every other party members but wearing his masked man outfit without the helmet and equipment so I assume he would remember faster due to Flint traveling with the group if your kindness was high enough for Flint, Lucas and Duster by chapter 4. So Claus would one day just leave Porky behind his back once he regained all his memories and find Lucas and the group or pretend to work for Porky despite having Dr.andoughnts disable all the stuff except the cannon and hover boots (can't remember if they were boots or not) until he ran into Lucas and co. Then he would just defeat his squad and join you being a swappable party member, in order to help Lucas pull the needles instead at least until they later when they are told that he, Claus abd Flint all have to pull the needles because each of them is broken in away but together they make a complete good hearted person. My guess Claus joins the gang some time after the part where we see Iwana like Lucas, Flint, and Bones see her and then we get the rest of the gang and once we reached the next needle what I said would happen Claus would betray his squad and join us but due to our kindness level if was high enough Lucas and Flint would tell Claus to let his squad live. I agree with you on the unused Porky sprite being a choice I actually think that it might have been the good choice given Porky's character and all ☠️ would have been mercy the one true thing he wanted was to be acknowledged but he was trash and knows it. The game would have tried to trick you as moments earlier before reaching the final needle during the first Porky boss, Porky would have tricked them into lowering their guards causing Flint to take his hat off and try to him meanwhile Porky would try shooting Lucas and Claus only for Flint to turn his back to the blast and shield them from it, as there is a sprite for Flint similar to the one used when Claus attacks him in final game except he's laying on his stomach which would support my theory of protecting them from an attack and in this max kindness happy ending route he would be the one who ☠️ instead of Claus. This of course would make the player think killing him is bad but it would actually be swapped just to add a twist to the mechanic and I believe this part is just speculation but it you had max kindness Dr.andounghts would have told the group about Porky and his back story and when the dialog box showed up it would flash that scene and make Lucas and Claus ☠️ Porky not because of there Father but out of mercy to let Porky finally rest because he's trash. After the Porky battle Lucas and Claus would morn there dad for a bit before Kumutora reminded them about the needle and together the 2 of them would pull the needle and save the world reviving Flint and Iwana as well as wish for Porky to have been able to go back in time and help save the world like he orginally wanted long long ago, then the unused "Happy end" sprite would along with the unused credits images following it shortly afterwards all while the unused rendition of the love theme played in the background.
I have a good feeling it would have been something similar to undertale; more kindness you have, the less enemies you’ll have to/want to fight, effecting the story and ending for the best.
So, essentially, Mother 3 was supposed to have the system of sparing enemies, 10 years before Undertale? I think it would damage the popularity of Undertale as "innovative game where you can spare enemies"
Had Mother 3 had this kindness system as I theorised and described it in this video, I’d gonna go as far to say it’s possible Undertale might not have even existed, as it seems that the creation of that game hinged on it’s unique battle system. But, that’s just speculation on my part. What’s also speculation from me but not impossible is that Toby Fox was aware of these cut gameplay and story elements from Mother 3 (potentially from his own research), and that’s what led him to wanting to make Undertale. Who knows for sure other than the man himself, though.
The kindness stat sounds interesting, but I really do prefer the final game’s ending. The story is about Lucas, not the player, and Lucas’s own love that he carries throughout the whole game towards the people he saves, the friends he makes along the way, and finally, when he sees Claus again and can’t bring himself to fight anymore. The only thing I can think of that the kindness mechanic would have added would be enforcing the theme of love to the player, but again, the story is entirely Lucas’s, how he grows, and the person he becomes at the end of the game. Unlike the other games, Itoi wanted to write an actual story for mother 3, and implementing multi-scenarios would have just bogged every aspect of the narrative (plot, themes, characters) down.
Actually, the story of Lucas was pretty sketchy. We only know that he was a shy an cowardly boy who couldn't even stop his brother from fighting deadly chimera to a mature hero who freed his brother from being brainwashed soldier of evil. Flint got pretty much the same amount of characterization and detail in 2 short chapters, when Lucas is seen sometimes in 3 chapters and then appears in the rest of 5 chapters as a protagonist. And it sucks how unsolved his conflict with Flint is. The only times they talk with each other is about Porky or Claus, but Lucas isn't featured in these dialogues. Only in the end Flint suddenly starts to notice he has not 1 but 2 sons. It's literally "We don't about Lucas". Maybe it is a subtle reminder of how actual heroes who take and endure all the pain and damage are forgotten and being left in shadow of characters who have much less feats and endured much less pain but talk about how very hurt they are.
Idk, I felt like Lucas’ arc of growth was a bit of a retread of Mother 2, actually. That game is entirely about coming-of-age maturity and courage, with the final villains being obvious counterpoints that represent childish evil and cowardice. Pretty much all of Mother 3’s other themes are really compelling and profound, but Lucas’ whole hero’s journey feels a bit too derivative of Mother 2. It’s the tinges of themes of grief and mortality that elevate it. I also really do love the ending of the final game, though. It’s a good ending for its story and a tremendous ending for the Mother series imo.
This was my theory 2. I wish some fans could do a remake or hack of Mother 3 that expands the game, implementing unused assets & ideas. I imagine a much darker ending sequence but with enough kindness, u determine a happier final outcome.
I believe it ended this way because itoi didn’t settle on a clear ending. He liked the idea of the player making it up themselves. But kindness felt like an opportunity 2 make a conclusive 1. It was probably just player experience 2 feel like, “I was kind enough, therefore, the world is rebuilt better.” If there were multiple endings by fans, I would want them all 2b wildly different. I.e., I want different interpretations of mother 3. Have a neutral ending where the dragon remakes the world but the world becomes Mother 1 & 2. Have another neutral ending where it depicts the player, themselves, putting down the game & living their life. Endings that completely change the lore & meaning of Mother 3. That just sounds fun.
imagine the game being 100% decompiled and we can get these kind of feature implemented... would love to see the "pacififst" route (undertale) where you can gain kindness points to unlock multiple ending. Mother3 should have had branching stories imho
There’s unused animations for basically every chapter of the game. I recommend looking through TCRF page for unused graphics: tcrf.net/Mother_3/Unused_Graphics
I came to the same conclusion a few years back, though I thought there would be a completely different sequence upon pulling the final needle if you got the Happy End (more on this later). I also think the unused sprites of Porky's escape pod shattering and him possibly dying might also have something to do with a choice. The only hole in our theories are the fact that Lucas is the one who pulls the final needle, and he would not be present for the Mecha Drago choice (unless those screenshots of him with Flint in the forest from the N64 version are from Chapter 1), so how could it affect his heart? The dragon itself was asleep, so it couldn't have seen it either. And there's another kindness event in Chapter 2 with Duster alone. Lucas couldn't have known about it.
Anyway, now that we're on the same page, there's one more piece to this puzzle I haven't been able to figure out: the Bird of Light. We know nothing about this thing except that it's the opposite of the Dark Dragon. What's it's relationship to the Egg of Light? Is it also asleep under the islands? Was that going to be the thing that woke up if a good-hearted person pulled the needles instead of the Dark Dragon in an earlier version of the script? If there's one Mother 3 mystery I want the answer to above all others, it's this one.
So, this is my theory: Lucas is ALSO hollow/blank, like Claus.
Lucas has experienced a horrible trauma, and then for a long time after was basically alone as his dad spent all his time searching fruitlessly for his brother, and the other villagers either repeating empty platitudes or just ignoring him in favor of their own business. He's numb through and through, though I think that PK Love (or whatever it is) is his own power, granted from his connection to Hinawa.
Now, about Claus: He's dead... Completely dead, soulless, and merely a proxy for Porky to jerk this way and that. It isn't until the very end when the spirit of his mother appears that Claus regains any autonomy, and even then he is forced to attack, so he chooses to attack in the way that won't hurt his brother.
Lucas is the same, in my theory, though his body yet lives. His numbness makes him a vessel for the player to act through, and we can similarly play horrible games, like repeatedly ramming into walls for no reason or flirting with death and ruin for the sake of fun. In much the same way, we control Flint as he desperately searches for his family (and suppresses his emotions as hard as he can), Salsa as he is abused by Fassad (and suppresses his emotions as well, while trapped)... Even the short time we control Duster, he swallows his emotions, particularly his fear of upsetting his abusive father, to get a job done.
In summation, the original idea is just a big game that the player and Porky are playing, using the people of Tasmily as background and the twins (and their followers) as pawns. Lucas and Claus have no emotions of their own most of the time, and when they do, we (and Porky) lose control. The Kindness Stat would have served to represent what sort of controller we are, regardless of whether Lucas was the vessel we used to carry out our will.
Claus being empty and without a soul seems like Flowey from Tobey Fox's undertale. Honestly Undertale is so confusing, it's nice to learn and read some stuff from Mother series as it way less complicated and as Tobey Fox's inspiration would explain a lot of confusing things that he created and make it actually easier to understand. Lifeless Cyborg Chimera puppet Claus makes so much more sense to not have soul, and how he slowly regains it during final fight, only enough to make an attack that robotic part of him would consider deficient and not use, with him being forced to attack choosing to sacrafice himself next time he is forced to attack, rarher than hurting his bother, than whatever it is Monster with lost soul stuck in the Flower but living on with help of his dead fiends's determination, not meant to be mean to it, but still kinda ridiculous, Flowey could possibly a puppet of someone else too if Tobey though it through so deep. Maybe him being inspired by this series actually good because it would open world of Mother series to players of his games if they want to understand his games better, will search for links with other games series and in result will find even more raw engaging and better expierence that inspired him in the first place, even if Mother 3 is kinda unfinished and barely has a completed plot, it's still is a very good game, and a very fun, tearfull and heartbreaking expierence. Tobey definitely took a lot of inspiration from Claus battle and Mother series music, and I'd like to know just how much of his music took something out music themes of Mother series, while actually really enjoying it on it's own in the process.
Charecters could be empty, rendering them controllable by player because of them burning out and lacking any excitement to search for morality, fullfilment and purpose in life other than simple objectives they currently pursue and leaving them relatively empty, especially Lucas and Flint. They havd expierenced hardships that would burn them out faster than any other charecters, if not for that we may never have been able to control them.
Well recent findings have images of Flint being with Lucas and the group after clube titiboo so my guess is that the choice you made with Flint in the prolog and Lucas in his chapters would effect that interaction. Along with Duster's actions in chapter 2 he probably would stop Flint from leaving forcing him to hear Lucas out and then he would stay understanding that Lucas won't stop searching either and so he agrees to tag along to make sure Lucas is safe thus Flint would become the 5th party member abd his presence that early would have most likely caused Claus to start remembering things earlier. I say this because there are files which when made into picture files are Claus with a player controlled battle sprite like every other party members but wearing his masked man outfit without the helmet and equipment so I assume he would remember faster due to Flint traveling with the group if your kindness was high enough for Flint, Lucas and Duster by chapter 4.
So Claus would one day just leave Porky behind his back once he regained all his memories and find Lucas and the group or pretend to work for Porky despite having Dr.andoughnts disable all the stuff except the cannon and hover boots (can't remember if they were boots or not) until he ran into Lucas and co. Then he would just defeat his squad and join you being a swappable party member, in order to help Lucas pull the needles instead at least until they later when they are told that he, Claus abd Flint all have to pull the needles because each of them is broken in away but together they make a complete good hearted person.
My guess Claus joins the gang some time after the part where we see Iwana like Lucas, Flint, and Bones see her and then we get the rest of the gang and once we reached the next needle what I said would happen Claus would betray his squad and join us but due to our kindness level if was high enough Lucas and Flint would tell Claus to let his squad live.
I agree with you on the unused Porky sprite being a choice I actually think that it might have been the good choice given Porky's character and all ☠️ would have been mercy the one true thing he wanted was to be acknowledged but he was trash and knows it. The game would have tried to trick you as moments earlier before reaching the final needle during the first Porky boss, Porky would have tricked them into lowering their guards causing Flint to take his hat off and try to him meanwhile Porky would try shooting Lucas and Claus only for Flint to turn his back to the blast and shield them from it, as there is a sprite for Flint similar to the one used when Claus attacks him in final game except he's laying on his stomach which would support my theory of protecting them from an attack and in this max kindness happy ending route he would be the one who ☠️ instead of Claus. This of course would make the player think killing him is bad but it would actually be swapped just to add a twist to the mechanic and I believe this part is just speculation but it you had max kindness Dr.andounghts would have told the group about Porky and his back story and when the dialog box showed up it would flash that scene and make Lucas and Claus ☠️ Porky not because of there Father but out of mercy to let Porky finally rest because he's trash.
After the Porky battle Lucas and Claus would morn there dad for a bit before Kumutora reminded them about the needle and together the 2 of them would pull the needle and save the world reviving Flint and Iwana as well as wish for Porky to have been able to go back in time and help save the world like he orginally wanted long long ago, then the unused "Happy end" sprite would along with the unused credits images following it shortly afterwards all while the unused rendition of the love theme played in the background.
Forget Earthbound 64, I wanna see a non-rushed version of the game!
Mother 3.5, the edition where flint reminds you to be rootin’, be tootin’, but most importantly, be kind
@@maxfecteau yee haw
Same. Genuinely what I want more than anything.
I have a good feeling it would have been something similar to undertale; more kindness you have, the less enemies you’ll have to/want to fight, effecting the story and ending for the best.
I think it's amazing how despite having a lot of cut content, Mother 3 still turned out to be great.
This is actually a very reasonable theory! Fits with the game's theme, and doesn't require any large logical leaps. Impressive!
So, essentially, Mother 3 was supposed to have the system of sparing enemies, 10 years before Undertale? I think it would damage the popularity of Undertale as "innovative game where you can spare enemies"
Had Mother 3 had this kindness system as I theorised and described it in this video, I’d gonna go as far to say it’s possible Undertale might not have even existed, as it seems that the creation of that game hinged on it’s unique battle system. But, that’s just speculation on my part. What’s also speculation from me but not impossible is that Toby Fox was aware of these cut gameplay and story elements from Mother 3 (potentially from his own research), and that’s what led him to wanting to make Undertale. Who knows for sure other than the man himself, though.
The kindness stat sounds interesting, but I really do prefer the final game’s ending. The story is about Lucas, not the player, and Lucas’s own love that he carries throughout the whole game towards the people he saves, the friends he makes along the way, and finally, when he sees Claus again and can’t bring himself to fight anymore.
The only thing I can think of that the kindness mechanic would have added would be enforcing the theme of love to the player, but again, the story is entirely Lucas’s, how he grows, and the person he becomes at the end of the game.
Unlike the other games, Itoi wanted to write an actual story for mother 3, and implementing multi-scenarios would have just bogged every aspect of the narrative (plot, themes, characters) down.
Actually, the story of Lucas was pretty sketchy. We only know that he was a shy an cowardly boy who couldn't even stop his brother from fighting deadly chimera to a mature hero who freed his brother from being brainwashed soldier of evil. Flint got pretty much the same amount of characterization and detail in 2 short chapters, when Lucas is seen sometimes in 3 chapters and then appears in the rest of 5 chapters as a protagonist. And it sucks how unsolved his conflict with Flint is. The only times they talk with each other is about Porky or Claus, but Lucas isn't featured in these dialogues. Only in the end Flint suddenly starts to notice he has not 1 but 2 sons. It's literally "We don't about Lucas".
Maybe it is a subtle reminder of how actual heroes who take and endure all the pain and damage are forgotten and being left in shadow of characters who have much less feats and endured much less pain but talk about how very hurt they are.
Idk, I felt like Lucas’ arc of growth was a bit of a retread of Mother 2, actually. That game is entirely about coming-of-age maturity and courage, with the final villains being obvious counterpoints that represent childish evil and cowardice. Pretty much all of Mother 3’s other themes are really compelling and profound, but Lucas’ whole hero’s journey feels a bit too derivative of Mother 2. It’s the tinges of themes of grief and mortality that elevate it. I also really do love the ending of the final game, though. It’s a good ending for its story and a tremendous ending for the Mother series imo.
This was my theory 2. I wish some fans could do a remake or hack of Mother 3 that expands the game, implementing unused assets & ideas. I imagine a much darker ending sequence but with enough kindness, u determine a happier final outcome.
I believe it ended this way because itoi didn’t settle on a clear ending. He liked the idea of the player making it up themselves. But kindness felt like an opportunity 2 make a conclusive 1. It was probably just player experience 2 feel like, “I was kind enough, therefore, the world is rebuilt better.”
If there were multiple endings by fans, I would want them all 2b wildly different. I.e., I want different interpretations of mother 3. Have a neutral ending where the dragon remakes the world but the world becomes Mother 1 & 2. Have another neutral ending where it depicts the player, themselves, putting down the game & living their life. Endings that completely change the lore & meaning of Mother 3. That just sounds fun.
Cool video!
Super solid stuff here, didn’t know a lot of that
Lore of MOTHER 3 Kindness stat theory momentum 100
This is a really good video 👍
this is a great video
imagine the game being 100% decompiled and we can get these kind of feature implemented... would love to see the "pacififst" route (undertale) where you can gain kindness points to unlock multiple ending. Mother3 should have had branching stories imho
where are all these animations from? i know some of them are unused from the final battle, but what about the rest?
There’s unused animations for basically every chapter of the game. I recommend looking through TCRF page for unused graphics: tcrf.net/Mother_3/Unused_Graphics
lucas is cute on thumbnail
There's no way toby Fox wasn't inspired by how this could have worked when he made underrale he had to come to the same conclusion as you
Lucas is cute on thumbnail.
YOOO I WISH MOTHER 3 WAS MORE LIKE UNDERTALE (in this sense only. i dont need skeletons in my mother 3)
do you got a bone to pick with em
eh ehe he