Early Analysis: Flight Training Accident October 6, 2022 Newport News Williamsburg, VA
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2022
- ASI Senior Vice President, Richard McSpadden, CFII, MEI, SES, MES, former Commander/Flight Leader for the USAF Thunderbirds, provides early analysis of an accident on October 6, 2022, when a Cessna 172 crashed during an instructional flight at the Newport News / Williamsburg International Airport in Virginia.
In this Early Analysis video, the AOPA Air Safety Institute makes a preliminary assessment of the accident, addressing notable portions of the tragic flight and highlighting areas the NTSB will likely investigate to determine a probable cause.
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UPDATE: The National Transportation Safety Board has released its preliminary report (ERA23FA008) regarding the investigation into the Training Accident Newport News-Williamsburg Airport of a Cessna 172-N (N97883).
data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/106080/pdf
Been there, done that. As a CFI having a student demonstrate a stall and stall recovery, he froze and went completely catatonic with the yoke all the way back. Even though we were at a safe altitude to begin with, it got scary enough to where I had to cold cock him in the head with my left elbow to regain control of the Cessna 150 we were flying. That ended this student's short flying career that was full of difficulties from the get-go with the unspoken admonition that he needed to go buy a boat.
It was that bad on a 150? I can't even get them to spin!
An incipient spin was about all I could manage. I gave the guy too much rope to hang himself with and got too close to the ground. It was never going to spin, but I still wouldn't want to smack the desert with this guy being my epitaph!
@@gringoloco8576 Probably wont spin, but it'll definitely steep-spiral.
@@craig7350 Did some 7-8 spins in the 152 last week, how about you?
Not the same scenario. Similar but not.
His remarks about the seat rails reminded me of something that happened to me in the 70s. As a student pilot in a Cessna 150, my instructor and I had just departed a small airport when my seat slid all the way back. Fortunately, I let go of the yoke and my instructor took the controls. That could have been fatal.
I had the same problem but I only had a seat belt and was able to push the yoke forward immediately until the instructor took over until I reset my seat. After the flight, we filled out an incident report about the seat sliding back. A couple of years later all the Cessna's I flew had the modified seat lock.
@@johnemerson1363 This happened before the AD. I had same thing happen during solo flight in a 172.By habit, I would twist the throttle slightly to it keep from moving on takeoff. When the seat slid back, I grabbed the windshield pillar with my left hand and the wheel with my right. By stretching, I was able to apply pressure on the right rudder with my right foot. I jammed my left back along the side of the seat to keep it from moving further. I was able to hold runway heading and reach a safe pattern altitude that way. To maintain right rudder was essential, to keep it from rolling over, that may have been the start of some of these accidents. I would jam a large wooden chock behind the seat after that. Dan Gryder thinks this is a freeze up or overcontrol by the student, I would tend to agree.
We had a guy die in a 172 at my local airfield in Victoria a number of years ago Re seat rails .
@@Rv7traralgon Do you have an RV-7? I built a -6A.
@@jimbower9268 yes built a 7 and a 12IS and now another 7
My dad worked part time as a CFI in the 70's and 80's.
They were performing touch and goes at Yolo County airport and when the students approach was a bit high Dad suggest the student should perform a sideslip to bet back in the glide slope.
The student didn't perform the slip correctly and performed a snap roll instead. Had the student continued the roll it would have been fine, but half way through the snap roll the student froze.
Now they were at low speed and AGL and they were inverted.
Dad reacted instantly rolling the plane upright, but now they were diving toward the ground. Dad was pulling up as hard as he dared to avoid a stall, but it seemed it was not going to be enough. The Earth was about to rise up and smite them mightily.
Dad didn't know how close it was, but there was wheat tangled in the landing gear and the tail had turned green with grass stains.
The wheat at this point was about 3 feet tall.
They landed and pulled off the runway. Dad had to get out of the plane quick, and the student opened his door and got sick.
Incredibly the guy finished his lessons with dad and even got his private. Dad did teach him to do a side slip.
Good ole KDWA! I trained at KEDU (University airport) in Davis, at Cal Aggie flyers. I got my private pilot certificate there, and used to pass Yolo county every time on my way to the practice area near Winters! Good ole times!
@@747-pilot So you know the size of Winters.
Had the crap scared out of me heading into Nut Tree. I got over Winters and just before I keyed to report that I was over winters another airplane keyed and said *HE* was over Winters.
I keyed and asked him for his altitude and felt relaxed as he said he was at 3000 (I was at 8000.
I looked at my instructor and her eyes were quite large. That's when I really knew how close that was.
I just slowed down and started my decent and saw the other plane ahead and below me as we entered downwind.
Did you know a guy named Bill Decker. He was an A&P out of Rio Vista.
3:30 The issue with the seat rails is quite old. I was working as a shop assistant for an airplane mechanic in 1988. When this AD was issued. It became my job to change the seat rails in Cessnas.
I actually got pretty good at it. I could get the seats out, replace the rails then reinstall the seats very quickly (It was in no way a difficult job).
But I got yelled at by my boss for leaving my prosthetic leg outside the plane on the shop floor while I worked inside the plane.
The boss was a very long time friend of the family. I'd known him my whole life. Very good guy.
Never knew about the bar that could be pushed with your feet. Great tip!
In Memory of Viktoria Theresie Izabelle Ljungman who lost her life on N97883.
We lost a great one in her. Rest In Peace ❤️
Richard, You are a great man! It's beyond heartbreaking to see you go.
I'm glad AOPA is doing these Early Analysis videos. Great job.
agreed.
I appreciate the no-nonsense straight delivery of the facts.
I've had a seat rail go on me in a C152 while doing solo circuits, honestly, it's still probably the scariest thing to happen to me while in a plane. I had done a touch and go which was a bit stiff and about 80ft off the ground the seat went all the way to the back, taking me and the wheel in my hand with it. I was only just about able to keep the aircraft in a stable climb with my fingertips till I could get my seat back in the right position. It was definitely an eye-opening experience, and certainly made me more aware of checking the seat adjust handle is properly down before going flying. An excellent video, with excellent analysis. Keep up the good work 👍
Scary stuff.. and if you were taught (as I was) to keep a hand on the throttle til you're out of the circuit, then you get a pitch up and idle power at the same time.
Great thought process on the possible causes to this unfortunate accident.
I was taught to wiggle back and forth in my seat till the seat mechanism latches on into the grove. I also make my passengers do this and I brief them NOT to grab onto the yoke should the seat roll back on climbout. I do this before every departure. It is worth remembering.
I do too!!!
Couple other items to consider include CG to far aft (low probability) or trim set full nose up, such as after last landing (also possible, but low probability). However, both could result in a nose pitch up as the pilot flying pulled aft on the yoke for takeoff.
I would be strange to greet new video notifications from this channel with joy, but your analysis is so informed and thorough that they are always worthwhile. I had *no idea* of the sheer frequency of student panic that CFIs encounter. And every imaginable other possibility is covered here as well. Thank you.
You gave us a good idea. Maybe we can release something with good news. We’ll work on it!
65% of instructors experiencing such student issues surprised me, too.
@@richardmcspadden9189 😉
@@kentd4762 Surprised me too. Clearly they weren't all extreme cases, but some sort of lock up...still. We're going to update our training materials for instructors to make this part of their training in our courses.
I literally feel the same way, it's sad in general, but initially exciting because I love learning from these well done videos and others like them.
Excellent overview. Professional grade compared to other similar videos. Did not know that info about the 172 bar, but excellent info. So sad and tragic, RIP.
THE best air safety youtube channel in the world. By a LONG way!! Well done and keep up the good work.
He's the Chad of air safety
When I was learning to fly years ago I had received my private pilots license. I needed to continue my training to get my commercial. I took my two-year-old daughter with me in the right seat. She was in a car seat and securely fastened into place. We were doing a landing back at the airport practicing touching goes. As I began to round out pulling back on the yoke she saw the control wheel coming toward her and stuck both of her feet on the control column and shoved forward. I had to aggressively slap her legs off the control yoke to recover the landing. Sometimes something very simple like that can create a disaster.
Use the back seat...
Might’ve been a little hard. I was training in Grumman two seater. I learned I could just slide the seat back 5 inches and she couldn’t reach it. The main point is we sometimes overlook what could be a potential hazards. I raised 4 kids. Sometimes it’s like having multiple individuals on suicide watch trying to keep them out of trouble.
Appreciate the way you approach things with an Open Mind presenting the possibilities... Too many other Channels speculate too early impacting Instructors, Pilots, Owners, Mechanics, Insurance carriers and more... many times wrecking careers! Best to wait for the NTSB Reports, FAA, eye witnesses, videos, Mechanics logs and more. Cannot make a true Assessment until all Evidence is considered! Thanks Again and Appreciate your opinions on many levels! -Rob M.
Thank you! We work hard to do that!
I agree. I am not a pilot/non flyer, but I find these presentations to be a study in careful perspective, respectful behavioural analysis, and technical insight. Very well done.
On the other hand, Dan Gryder has a tendency to leap to premature conclusions. He’s often proven correct eventually, but most of us with much experience can make the same educated guesses-we often will be proven correct eventually as well.
I much prefer the ASI approach. Lay out the facts and possibilities, as well as the lessons to be learned, but leave the conclusions for more thorough investigation by trained and experienced investigators.
I’ve found the NTSB with GA almost always gets it wrong
@@myvizn8387 I have not found that to be the case and I read almost every report that they release. I"ve been amazed at the things they can determine.
The usual excellent report. This is by far the most credible site/presenter on the Internet.
I will be an AOPA member for life because of these videos (and other AOPA benefits).
Thanks for that! GA is strong thanks to our members that help us keep advocating to grow GA, protect it, and keep it safe!
The seat rail situation happened to me once. Immediately upon takeoff and initial climb, my seat suddenly and loudly banged rearward, taking my hand on the yoke with it. I bent over forward and pushed the yoke, but it's one of those 'I could have died' moments. I'll always remember it.
Same, in a 150. My current 150 has the seats pinned in place.
happened to me luckily on takeoff roll and i was able to abort
As a CFI I experienced the seat going back in the 172 during take off and also students freezing up (after stall practice or other airwork) several times. This story gives me shivers and make me realize how small the margins sometimes are. Great analysis en codelances to the family of the flight instructor.
Your channel rocks!
Thank you for the breakdown of this incident 🙏
I worked for an airplane mechanic in the summer of 1988 when I was 18.
The AD mentioned about the seat rales came out at around that time. It was my job to replace the rails in Cessnas, and I replaced lots and lots of rails. I got to the point where I could remove the seats, replace the rails then put the seats back in in less than an hour.
All of these first look videos are good but this one was exceptional. I will be sharing this with my flying club, thanks again.
Aviation reporting is so awful in the media. Anytime you hear a news story about something you are an expert in, they always get the details wrong. It never fails.
Why weren't the students interviewed and told us what happened?
I was talking to my friend Charlie while I was working on his VW seats. I told him the tracks are ok and showed him how they work. He told me that aircraft seats are similar. When it’s not locked or worn they might slide back on rollout causing the pilot to hold onto the yoke and pull full up on the elevator causing a stall. This was three days ago. Charlie was the president of Cessna. I’m glad to have a friend like him.
Nice preliminary report. This crash was local to me.
Richard, thank you, this accident deserves a close look.
Va. Beach, VA.
Great video. Sad loss of life which may have been avoidable. My son flies for SkyWest. When he instructed he had a student pull all the way back on takeoff, “Like a fighter jet.” Very scary. I heard the 2 students were large. Laypeople when they hear stall, they think engine stall, not loss of wing lift. I am sure they meant stall, not engine stall.
That was my first thought. If the two students were large and you heard that the CFI was a female. If she was small they were most likely far aft cg. Since they both lived, hopefully there will be an update after the NTSB interviews them and reports their findings.
Thanks for this - I was unaware of that bar in the 172, you’ve given me another option I didn’t have before today.
I'm playing out the scenario in my head of a student pilot pulling hard while the CFI is pushing hard on the bar with his foot and what would happen if the student suddenly released his hold.
@@riverraisin1 good question...hopefully in this scenario, that's a problem you have to solve. You'd probably be able to grab the yoke and save the plane. For now, in that moment, you have to handle the nearest alligator to the boat and decrease the pitch attitude or your fate is certain.
If you're not smart enough to just push the yoke forward then it's not likely you're going to be able to achieve getting your foot between the console and control column vertical tube either, especially with the yoke pulled aft. The yoke has a lot more leverage being higher than the pivot point then where your foot could get only a few inches above the pivot point. An elbow to the jaw and pushing with your hand is all you need to do if your life is in danger from a frozen student.
Great video, as always, pls keep it up! Greetings from Bangkok, Thailand 🙏
Definitely a few possibilities there. Well reported without jumping to conclusions.
Good job!
This is good. Thank you
During the early stages of my training, my instructor was always very good about "guarding" the controls. He would place his hands near the yoke such that if I made incorrect or excessive control inputs, I would encounter some resistance. If I attempted to push through it, or repeatedly attempted to make the improper control inputs, he would announce: "That's me." and coach me on the correct input (ie: "Keep your nose down.") It allowed me enough slack to safely make mistakes and learn from them while allowing him to maintain positive control over the airplane.
I've always been curious why dedicated trainer aircraft lack a system that would allow an instructor to disconnect a student's yoke from the controls in case of an emergency such as a freeze-up. A thru-pin connected to a pull cable on the instructor's side held in place by copper safety wire (secure but easy to break with sufficient force, similar to an emergency pneumatic gear blow-down system) would do the trick. It would likely require an A&P to reconnect and re-safety it after use. But in the event of a student freeze, it could be a life-saver.
great video!!
Thanks!
As always ASI puts out very thoughtful analysis. My only comment is about pushing forward on the yoke upon power failure on takeoff. In power off configuration, even with full up trim, a 172 will not stall unless the pilot pulls back on the yoke. My advise has been to let go of the yoke, and fly with just trim in case of an engine failure. It is nearly impossible to stall this way (except accelerated stalls).
Great videos in this channel ! 😁😀👍 Thanks !
Any update regarding this incident???
Thanks for the tips I didn't know about regarding how instructors like me can fight back if a student freezes up. I didn't know about the leg trick in the 172, and the "cover the eyeballs" trick seems worth a shot unless the situation occurs so low that there is no time but to throw an elbow at my student.
Yeah close to the ground, you ought to just give em a neck shot.
Whack them in the throat and they'll forget about the yoke. It's drastic, but death is irreversible.
I'll have to look at the control bar (leg trick) the next time I fly. New to me, too.
Pushing on the connecting bar with your leg is a nice trick to know, but I’d say if an instructor really had to use it three times, he could probably have done a more thorough job demonstrating the maneuvers first and making sure the student knows what to expect, so they don’t freeze up so often. I’ve resorted to overpowering the student once or twice, but it always made me think whether I could have done something better instead. It can be very confusing for the student, because he suddenly feels a force opposing him, and he might think it’s an aerodynamic force that needs to be counteracted by applying more pressure, and so the fight between student and instructor begins. A calm but well articulated “I have the flight controls” before you even touch the flight controls probably helps.
My instructor had a new student taking off and the student applied the wrong rudder near rotation. The student froze with his foot on the wrong rudder pedal and he was a big guy. The instructor couldn't overpower him and started yelling. The aircraft was just above the runway lights trying to build speed. The instructor had never had someone overpower him before.
I’m going with seat roll back at this point. The front seat student was a large person I think. I’ve never heard of a freeze on TO. One option not discussed was the wake turbulence.
A common reason for witnesses on the ground saying a planes engine stalled PRIOR to the pitch up attitude is distance from the plane. You have to take into account sound travel time, which in a quick situation like that, can cause what appears to be an asynchronous set of events.
I remember reading about a seat sliding all the way back on a C-130 many years ago. Fortunately the crew were able to recover.
I wish he would have talked about wake from the departing aircraft being a cause. Wake avoidance was mentioned by the controller and acknowledged by the CFI.
I’ve never had a student freeze but was taught to be ready to use a quick strike to the face. A foot push to the controls or covering the eyes of my student sounds much safer and effective.
The guy flying was 3 times her size,,he pulled up freaked kept pulling up!!!! She couldn't over power his commands!✌ that's what happened!!!
My condolences
🛫📖🛫
Fantastic review great job my friend 👍
Thanks, Chuck!
Years ago I had a seat in a 172 break loose on takeoff roll. It's a real 'what the hell' moment. I got it stopped on the runway but if I'd be airborne it would have been much more serious.
A typical startle response is to pull back on the wheel, and that might be a factor. Also, in an accident, hands on the wheel will often have broken bones. Didn't know about pushing on the control wheel bar in a C172. Thanks for that!
There was a wake turbulence warning by the ATC prior to the takeoff. Also, I have noticed the seat issue on 2013 C172 during a pre-flight where the seat was not locking at first lock position but was locking on the second instead. I snagged the aircraft and cancelled my flight as I previously had a bad experience with the seat of a car which was not properly locked and pushed me forward towards the steering wheel upon braking.
Based on location of crossing runway, flight path of fighters and winds at the time, it's very unlikely wake turbulence from the fighters played any role.
I remember starting to taxi after doing the break check and my seat slid all the way back once we started moving. Luckily my instructor took control right away. At least it didn’t happen during takeoff.
Thank You for the Video ….. very comprehensive look at this unfortunate situation.
“ Common Things Occur Commonly ! “
It is part of Medical Differential Diagnosis, and pertinent here as well.
“ …… be aware of Wake Turbulence ….. “
This is a Possibility that is all too real.
Prayers for the Family
✨🙏🏻💫
Supposedly the CFI can be heard yelling at the student to let go of the controls.
Hope the ease of filming these early accident reports wont dissuade ASI from continued production of their long-form accident videos.
No. Those are more time consuming. We’ll have another of those out in a month or so.
the incident is very heart breaking 😢
Was the aircraft properly trimmed for TO?
Yeah, wing stall obviously. Trim set improperly, or maybe wake turbulence I would think.
Curious; How / why do you think the NTSB can determine who was flying at the time of pitch up?
Interviews with survivors. Discussion with flight school on typical conduct of this type of flight.
I think a Charlie bar on the seat rail might prevent this. Part of the before take off checklist would include a system where the seat is secured in a position that is locked into its forward position by a simple bar that won’t let it move back.
I remember when I was in training and had just been cleared to solo. I was doing my run up in my 182 and decided I’d “slightly” adjust my seat. Well the seat immediately flew back all the way. I was holding on for dear life to keep some pressure on the breaks but could find anything to pull myself forward with out losing what little force I had on the breaks. The plane started moving forward as I started sliding off the pedals. I stretched out and was just able to turn off the mags…scared the crap out of me! Lesson learned! 😂
Good to know 😊😂 I’ll keep that in mind lol too
My seat let go on climb out a few weeks ago flying a PA38 Tomahawk with my CFI. Luckily I knew what to do…pushed column forward and let go calling for the CFI to take over whilst I re engaged the seat.
With respect to the radio communications, when I was learning to fly, my instructor handled all comms until I had my radio license. Even after that, he would work the radio if he wanted me to focus more on flying.
How can I keep following the final verdict from NTSB? I like the early assessments but would like to conclude with NTSB findings
They sometimes take up to two years. Follow Air Safety Institute or go on NTSB website periodically.
Whenever the news media says “stall” it always refers to the engine. They have no idea what an aerodynamic stall is but they hear the term and translate it to the engine.
I saw a news reporter state that bit about the engine stalled. The way she said it made it sounded like she heard someone mention stall, and assumed it was the engine that stalled. That would be consistent with a news reporter that doesn’t know anything about how aircraft work reporting on aircraft accidents. Just my guess but that’s the vibe I got.
so did the engine stall or did the wing stall?
Notice that in the photo the prop blade pointed up is not damaged which seems rather unusual. If the prop was turning at 2000 rpm under full power it should show some significant damage.
radio calls are often made by the instructor in the early stages of training.
I’ve had several issues with those useless Cessna seat rails over the years. I still hold the dash or strap in Cessna’s to this day while climbing out!
Right before I started flying lessons back in 2000, a student and instructor were killed in a C-172 crash right after takeoff at Saratoga. It was believed to be a seat failure. From that time on my instructor always had us check that the seats were locked.
Just a heads up, it refers to tower as PHL tower instead of PHF tower at 1:02
Yep. Sorry about that.
Once took a intro flight Groupon was promoting this was around 2009 a coworker of mine he wanted to go also. He was a big guy and i'm little on the heavy side his weight was around 300 lbs I'm guessing. The instructor was young kid about 19 years old he had been furloughed a week before he was to start with a regional airline after the mortgage crisis. He was about 120-140lbs I knew light aircraft at the time were limited I kept asking him are you sure we are not overweight he said no we were right on the line. My co-worker got in the back and I was at the controls he was right seat. He had me taxi for awhile then we lined up he said when we get to 60 pull back on the yoke until we get to this degree maintain a speed. We rolled to 60 and it did over rotate some he pushed forward on his yoke I let some pressure off. He was kind of surprised by this he asked my buddy "You said you weighed 240" I'm think he was much closer to 300lbs he was 6.5 with big pot belly. When we landed the CFI he said to me, "Won't do that again" meaning next time won't be any back seat rider. He said we were struggling and it was tail heavy somewhat. It's very possible someone didn't do weight and balance maybe the backseat person lied about their weight.
What about any info on the Josh Neuman crash?
Cessna 310 charter operation. I was an apprentice mechanic. I informed my lead hand that the seat back supports were cracked. Parts were ordered and the aircraft released. Shortly after, a Federal pilot examiner ended up in the back seat with his feet in the air. That company was eventually shut down for maintenance violations.
Never allow the student who has never flown an aircraft, do the takeoff for his first flight.
Not a problem in thousands of hours of instruction SEL/MEL. A good preflight briefing is in order setting some definite do/don't. Too many times students are not briefed at all;no one gets paid until the Hobbs Meter is ticking 😡. An instructor can get a feel for an individual with just subtle conversation 😁
The flight instructor was Viktoria Theresie Izabelle Ljungman, 23, of Williamsburg, Virginia. RIP Viktoria!
I certainly don't mean to be disrespectful, and I don't know anything about her qualifications. But, as someone who doesn't fly a plane, I would be uncomfortable and hesitant to have a 23-year-old teach me.
IMO, flying a plane is very complicated, and I'd hope they would need to be thinking 5 minutes ahead of their flight, in their mind. I think having a student would be too distracting for someone so young. 🤔
Just my thoughts on instructors in general.
@@danni1993 Many many flight instructors are around 23 years old. It’s not hard to teach a plane this was just unlucky.
@@CocoEspada Agree, her age should not be considered a factor as I flown with a lot of young and experienced flight instructors.
@@danni1993 She was able to earn her Commercial and CFI certificates, which is no mean feat. The fact that she was relatively young is largely irrelevant. The minimum age for getting those certificates is 18 and I wouldn't hesitate to fly with an instructor of that age, even though I would have half a century on that person. What's more important than age is experience, both total and recent.
@@johnopalko5223
Thank you. 🙂
Love the Fly Oz sticker!
Are you the one who interviewed those bush pilots that were going deep into mountain terrain in Carbon Cubs , perhaps they were turnip field hunting or something like that? One pilot crashed on a no-go around landing strip I think and got hurt pretty bad but his buddies save him. Anyway, you look like the same guy who interviewed and if so, can you remind me what key words to search to find that video? You do a great job by the way, bravo.
Indeed. Here is the video you are looking for ruclips.net/video/NGt6TmkYdUw/видео.html
Student froze, female CFI lacked the ability to physically overcome this. The end.
Slide bang! - pitch up - Stall horn - "your controls!" In less than a second and a couple hundred feet above the ground and we're in a departure stall scenario.
Had my seat slide in a 152 for the first time during my private check ride. The examiner didn't know why I was giving her the controls, but she took them anyway and I fixed my seat. I didn't know that had been a known issue. Now imagine if more weight had been in the rear of the cabin...
I flew 883 a few times. Sad and shocking to hear about the crash.
Good info. I don't fly anymore but like to stay informed.
There was also mention of caution for wake turbulence associated with fighter jets. Could that have been a cause for upset on take-off?
Not in this accident. The fighters departed the crossing runway, down at the far end. The Cessna crashed well before they would have reached any wake turbulence.
Cessna has a seatbelt ratchet locking type device you can install under the seats so they will automatically stop the seat from going back. They were giving those away for free (you have to pay the install) a few years ago, not sure if they still are, but either way, probably worth the cost.
Pretty sure that’s an AD isn’t it?
Tower cautioned them about wake turbulence so I also wonder if they took the appropriate steps to avoid it
I had a student put me in a spin and he locked up on the controls hard once. He was bigger and stronger than me. I used excessive force. We landed and I got him a tissue for his bloodied nose and talked him through spins and recoveries. We went and did spin training and upset recoveries. It didn't happen again. He passed his checkride a few days ago.
Your tape shows PHL tower. Shouldn’t it be PHF tower?
Yes. Sorry about that.
Does anyone know where u can get the sticker that says pilot on his laptop
This should be fairly easy to figure out once the NTSB has finished interviewing the two students who survived. Sounds like a power-on stall with no altitude for recovery.
Or to add to probable cause: Not verifying trim position on take-off inducing an elevator trim stall.
check the dteails.. it was a student freez up and petite instructor was unable to override,,, tragic
Very balanced and non-opinionated.
Seat rolling back makes a lot of sense. If the flying pilot have one hand on the yoke and the other hand on the throttle, when the seat roll back the pilot will pull on the yoke to create a fast pitch up and the hand on the throttle will pull it to idle making it sound like an engine failing. During initial climb the gravity vector have a component toward the rear due to the pitch angle. The vibration and the acceleration during the take off run can move object or cause interference with the locking mechanism of the seat. I have read that the student pilot was heavy weight. The pitch up attitude put more force on the seat mechanism to roll back. Could also be wake turbulence. Just before take off, the tower have warned them about it.
Could be omission to remove the external control lock on the empennage.
What a fair minded response. Not clear on whether the three responses for FIs when students freeze are widely known, or if it’s a SAFE initiative. Seems valuable info for all FIs though. Expect the students will shed some light on this whole sorry situation when they’re able.
How would they determine who was at the controls based on a radio call? 🤔
You can't. It's entirely possible the instructor was talking and student flying. NTSB will talk to survivors and likely figure that out.
I wonder about a poorly trimmed plane along with a possible W&B issue given the third person on board. Hopefully the two survivors will get better and shed some light.
Not on a training discovery flight.
The CFI didn't even "skim" the weight and balance figures?? I doubt that...
@@reubenmorris487 She did she was excellent instructor