Are Church Organizations Biblical? | Episode 62
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- One criticism occasionally leveled at the United Pentecostal Church International and other church organizations is that, in the view of some, there is no precedent for these entities in the New Testament. These critics argue that religious organizations are just manmade groups with no spiritual authority, and their leaders are little more than religious bureaucrats appointed by men.
Dr. David K. Bernard responds to this charge by showing the biblical precedent for organized Christian ministry. He provides Scriptural evidence of churches and leaders in the New Testament coordinating their efforts and appointing leaders with spiritual oversight and authority. Dr. Bernard also explains why churches and believers should do the same today.
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I would love to hear your thoughts superintendent on 2 topics. 1st a woman’s role and function in the church and if it is biblical for them to carry the title of pastor. And 2nd the laying on of the hands as it pertains to the ministry and more specifically it’s application in church’s today where hands are placed specifically on the head of a person. Thank you again for your amazing insight as always bishop. God bless.
The scripture seems pretty clear on the roles of woman in the church eldership isn't what God made them to do within the Bride but are used in other very powerful ways in the form of helps. Laying on of hands is how some recieve the Baptism of The Holy Spirit as expressed and given as an example in the book of acts. Pushing people to the ground is not biblical and those who do such things claiming to be Gifted by God to certain eldership offices will answer for their error. The Apostle is used at times for the Holy Spirit to indwell the repented believer. Many have taught God's gifts to the church away due to a prideful power grab of authority this is found widely in the Professing church of the USA. Hope this helps as it is what the scripture teaches as the Lord Jesus leads us the True Believer.
Thank you for always encouraging me Pastor. This is my testimony of how God has watched over me and my children. I’m trusting in Jesus even though I’m having a hard time paying bills and putting groceries in the refrigerator for my family since losing my job over declining the vaccine. My faith is what is getting me through my hard situation. I declined the vaccine due to my pre existing health condition (Lupus) and Heart disease. I was denied my medical/religious exemption from Forsyth Hospital. My husband passed away three years ago, I’m a single mother. Both of my sons are autistic and non verbal so things are more hard on me. Every month is a struggle, a battle to not end up on the streets. I’m so depressed and embarrassed by my situation. I have been put down and mocked by others even insulted for sharing my story. BUT because of my faith I know God will provide. Even as I face homelessness with two young children seemingly every month! I know that God will make a way. HE HAS PROVIDED this far. Thank you Heavenly Father! I believe.
I think we need to be careful not to take too much liberty in our practice. A good question to this is: are the results of our process biblical? If we’re not getting biblical results we either are doing it wrong or we have incorrect expectations.
Jesus told his disciples not to rule like the people of this world. Yet we structure ourselves just like any other organization out there. Traditions are fine. But if we are too attached to them that we can’t fathom changing for better results we may have a problem.
The purpose of elders in ministry is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. If that’s not what they generate then we may be doing something wrong. In our churches today it’s very easy to be a faithful tithe paying attendee yet never reach our purpose of a life of ministry. In our churches today we have maybe 5-10% of people engaged in “ministry”. When the point is for all being equipped and engaged in ministry. As a matter of fact ministry should be a byproduct of a Christian life.
The apostles turned their world upside down. Not sure we’re there yet. And I think it’s ok to review our process without offending anyone or throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just saying. We need a revolution of leaders/elders without titles or a seat on the platform to truly impact our communities on a daily basis. And dare I say we need to take Sunday service off it’s traditional pedestal and emphasize daily grinding/ministry from all members of the body to reach our world. Talking about real issues and creating a culture of personal accountability to the body with the Word as the only standard.
UPC is my choice for an organization to be a part of but let’s be real we can improve. And if we’re going to pound our chest about being original apostolics then we should do it like them vs mainstream Christianity which we don’t even consider born again.
👍
On point!
That's why we have the five fold ministry( Apostles, Prophets, evangelists, Pastors and teachers)they are for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ. Everything is by the Holy Spirit we need to fully depend on the Holy Spirit.
This is excellent Bishop! As usual. Thank you and GOD bless you sir 🙏🏽
I think, if we are using the councils as precedence for what an organization should be, then it’s not just being strictly independent that’s not biblical. One could argue that having all these different organizations (UPCI, PAW, PCAF, WPF etc. ) isn’t biblical either. We should be one organization.
Agree. (UPCI, PAW, PCAF, WPF etc. ) as stated, all left each other, that's why there are different organizations. Because of disputes, disagreements and racism was the cause of the split. Southern Jim Crow laws and racial hatred resulted in many white leaders withdrawing from the PAW rather than remaining under African American leadership. They didn't want to be under the leadership of a Black man. That still stands today. UPCI will NEVER have a black man as superintendent of that organization. Some of them despised Barack Obama being president of USA, because he was BLACK. I had many online arguments with some of the ministers in that organization over the fact him being black, even though I didn't agree with everything with Obama, but I acknowledge his leadership. Keep in mind, a lot of them are republicans as well. But I do respect the UPCI organization, though they are sharp and good speakers in the Gospel. I do listen to them because I'm in agreement because I believe the Word just as they do but has to come a togetherness, I do believe all this division has to come to a rest and God brings us ALL back together before His return. 🤔🤷
@@heidih.2394 well said, I’m similar to you in that I respect UPCI as an organization that puts God first and spreads the gospel. However, I do think that instead of sweeping what divides us under the rug… we need to come together and address it. Additionally, I’ve also had similar interactions with some UPCI members that are similar to yours. However, I have also had interactions with UPCI members that are more open minded and acknowledge that racism played a predominate factor in the split. I think those members being more proactive in terms of bridging the divide can help unify the body.
@@futurekillerful I agree.
@@futurekillerful I still see a lack of diversity in the upper tiers of this organization. It looks suspect.
@@janethefriend-awakened33 I agree, I think the next generation of UPCI leaders will change that though . I’ve been able to interact with younger UPCI members (around my age and under) and they seem more sentimental to this issue. Only time will tell tho… we will see what they do once they hold the leadership positions of the UPCI.
I think we need a part 2 on this I found it very informative and would like for you to elaborate on the points you didn’t have time to.
Matthew 23:8
“But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.”
Excellent and very biblical concept. Great work here 👍
Better Question...Is it biblical to allow the the church to be the creature of the state? Thereby allowing the government to be the head and the church the body...ie 501c3 incorporated.
Let's talk about it: The UPCI was once upon a time with the PAW where whites and blacks were TOGETHER with One accord in One place. The General Assembly of the Apostolic Assemblies merged with another church, the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW), and accepted the leadership of G. T. Haywood, an African American. This interracial organization adopted the PAW name and remained the ONLY Oneness Pentecostal body until late 1924. Southern Jim Crow laws and racial hatred resulted in many white leaders withdrawing from the PAW rather than remaining under African American leadership. Many local congregations in the Southern U.S., however, remained integrated while attempting to comply with local segregation laws. In 1925, three new Oneness churches were formed: the Apostolic Churches of Jesus Christ, the Pentecostal Ministerial Alliance, and Emmanuel's Church in Jesus Christ. In 1927, steps were taken toward reunifying these organizations. Meeting in a joint convention in Guthrie, Oklahoma, Emmanuel's Church in Jesus Christ and the Apostolic Churches of Jesus Christ merged, taking the name the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. This merger united about 400 Oneness Pentecostal ministers. In 1931, a unity conference with representatives from four Oneness organizations met in Columbus, Ohio attempting to bring all Oneness Pentecostals together. The Pentecostal Ministerial Alliance voted to merge with the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, but the terms of the proposed merger were rejected by that body. Nevertheless, a union between the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ and the PAW was consummated in November 1931. The new body retained the name of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World.
In 1932, the Pentecostal Ministerial Alliance changed its name to the Pentecostal Church, Incorporated to reflect its organizational structure. In 1936, Pentecostal Church, Incorporated ministers voted to work toward an amalgamation with the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ. Final union, however, proved elusive until 1945 when these two Oneness Pentecostal organizations combined to form the United Pentecostal Church International. The merger of these two Oneness Pentecostal bodies brought together 521 churches.
In the U.S. and Canada, the newly formed United Pentecostal Church International traditionally reflected the surrounding demographics, with the majority of its constituency being White and Anglo-American. In the last quarter of the twentieth century, however, the United Pentecostal Church International attempted to shift its doctrines toward the inclusion of every race and culture in North America. In 2008, the United Pentecostal Church International published a statement against racism. Despite attempts to reconcile with minorities, several congregations have left the United Pentecostal Church International citing persistent racism. Okay: Racism is still a problem today (UPCI) in this organization. Just as when they left the PAW, nothing has seemed to change. There is still a problem, and nobody wants DELIVERANCE from. Ther is still a problem with hate, racism, prejudice, bigotry. Until this problem, folk get DELIVERANCE from, we can ALL come back to this GREAT ALTAR God has provided and come back together in THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, but until then, there will always be DEVISION.
Yes, amen, agree and all of that. It appears that those at the top of the organization which happens to be old white men are comfortable in keeping things as they are. This parallels the same attitude of white privilege/supremacy that is prevalent in everyday society. It's rather sad.
Is there anyway we can get Spanish translations for these podcasts?
As long as the teaching is in line with the words of God as its is done today , minister of Churches today is lord and untouchable in there space
Gbu Dr
So if you don't think someone is being used of God even if they carry the fruit in their life and are operating in power and authority you are saying that you decide what the person does instead of God?
My question as well. Somewhat confusion which God is not author of. I have much to say about this matter.
Thank you Pastor for such an explicit presentation of the church organization based on biblical point of view. Sir, can i ask further regarding the concept of local church particularly its structure. Our local church here in Davao Philippines is composed of different departments or ministries, basically these include music, ladies, men, youth, and juniors ministry and I am the Chairman of Music. My question is what are the biblical guidelines or teachings that a certain ministry must uphold in order to: fullfill our goals and objectives; strengthen and protect the commitment of each members; develop and improve their roles and gifts; and all the qualities that a leader must possess. Thank you very much for your response on this matter.
Have you read Titus ?
I can't help but notice the lack of diversity in the upper leadership of the organization. I've been thinking alot about to this lately.
wow!
They did organize, as they should, to be efficient and impactful. But they never organized any brands (methodist, adventist, pentecosral, whatever). The branded "church" (for me 'church' is only the people, BTW) are simply using the fact that they organized to legalize their brand of organized establishments
You said that being strictly independent is not Biblical; I agree. My question is, however, to what degree does a local church need to be affiliated with an organization to NOT be considered independent?
Is it necessary for the local church to pay dues, promote camp meetings, abide by the same organization-level standards, etc?
Good question. But I disagree, if local assembly is independent, as is of God calling, God acknowledge that church. There are some things organizations are doing that is non-Biblical. My father told me, just as long as that independent ministry is doing the will of God, following the guidelines of God's Word, that ministry is legit, and God acknowledge it because it's God called.
Strictly autonomous were the churches established by God through Paul. The churches had biblical oversight (elders) as well as deacons. Paul recognized this in his letters to the separate churches.
Excellent!
Jethro’s advice to Moses
ordination isnt neccessary, who ordained paul? etc,
@@beauwaddle thats great, but its not always. who anointed Jeremiah a prophet? GOD alone. because everyone around him including the king was trying to shut his mouth and kill him. same with Joseph and his killer brothers.
@@beauwaddle Jesus said beware of men, and their controlling traditions. pharisees still reign in many places, unbiblical. u need more study and prayer , let men control your mind and they will seek to destroy you later, i speak from experience my friend, and i encourage you to watch sub, my you tube videos to educate yourself. God hates witchcraft, you might not have a clue what i am saying to u.
@@beauwaddle I'm pretty sure biblically Jeremiah was never anointed by anybody. I'm a student of the word as well always willing to listen and learn also. and a New testament Jesus was taking the church away from the Pharisee style of leadership because it was corrupt. So the more the church does the same things that Jesus did away with they're going to deal with men's corruption in the pulpit usually. Also. It's just better to follow the principles of the Bible patterns having a man pray over you is fine it really doesn't matter if he does or doesn't. Paul nobody prayed over him he spent years in the desert with Jesus only. Yet he anointed when he started ministering. Either way is fine. Nobody anointed Jesus. The Pharisees the leaders hated him and then ended up murdering him. The spirit of God anointed Jesus Christ.
I believe God ordained the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus
I am not against church organisation provided men are not exalted above one another. An elder should be a leader of people with equal standing. Human worship is the bane of current Christian organisation. Bible says we should prefer one another in love. Today leaders call the shot without even recourse to consulting others in the church. The churches are being run like worldly companies. This is the aspect we all need to manage.
organized church is fine, but the "rulership " your laying out is absolutely not fine
Galatians 2:6
“But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:”
Paul realized when he met them , he was already spiritually way past them. hence the danger of politics of men and of not following the Spirit. not good brethren
Crete you said, the elders would be the pastors, not biblical. eph 4:11 'some pastors and teachers". Elders have jobs of pastors but not necessarily pastors, thats you guys installing pastors as lords, not good.Peter never called himself a pastor, because of the abuse men do , OT proves that as well.
1 Peter 5:1
“The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:”
It's true organization is necessary. Our carnality needs to be disciplined daily. But, leaders need to show humility and admit a church can be weak.. Only through this admission can we then grow, plus, It gives all glory to GOD! If one refuses to admit weakness, it might mean men want glory for themselves. Some churches believe they are continually in God's will, and refuse to admit any defeat, to the detriment of the Body. Even scripture in Acts and Epistles show how there were divisions among men of God. Some church organizations think that keeping things hidden will never come to light, but the Word says they do (Eph. 5:13) "But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light; for whatsoever doth make manifest is light".
What if you got tattoos before you got saved? I got 3 tattoos before I was born again at 18 years old. And I’m no longer involved in getting tattoos.
What are your thoughts on having tattoos before you find salvation?
You have to remember taking tattoos before salvation is that the person is not saved as yet, then when they get saved the same tattoos are still there but it doesn't mean the person is not saved.
@@tjaw8877 I am so glad Jesus is the only One that knows the heart of His sheep. 🙌❤️
@@neilynjohnson4594 Amen ! That's true ! He found us ! He knows the ones who are his.
the elders in any assembly have basically same job as a pastor and ought speak up when carnal abuses run rampant for decades. but yalls "pastor is lord" theologies have failed and become as Paul said in Titus 1 "wanting"
Shared with A.C.T.S. members
I appreciate this so much
"seperate me paul and barnabas"
no brethren, no blackballing, i think the masons do that stuff, lol. if God calls a man you ought receive . God is Lord, not carnal men Matthew 23:8
“But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.”
because when you start doing such, ... when a wolf seduces you all and gets position, havoc. not good.
Organizations are not in the Bible
paul was too busy crying and getting beaten often and writing to report to any of his brothers, your theology is jacked my brother. and others see it too thats why they leave the rulership of men theology because the holy ghost is telling them such
yes change your our policy you said, yes, reform.
not obligated to follow carnal men to hell. dont be deceived Jesus warned brethren. blind obedience to an assembly is Ludacris. unbiblical, dangerous, this is religious stuff david, not good, reform is definately needed in many areas i can see
administration gifts are biblical, same as organization, but not to replace spiritual leadership, i think bro arnold mentioned that at a bott i believe also. we all trying to go to heaven and not be ran carnally like the gentiles do Jesus said. we need Azusa style leaders to take us to His Spirit every day. Matthew 20:25
“But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.”Matthew 20:26
“But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;” there are no "ranks " in God only jobs that men who think they are "authorities or lords"do or do not, and the fruit will be evident. most fail and i think we all can see that on a biweekly basis because nothing ever happens or changes, mostly just exchanges of money from the people to the churches and leaders.Luke 19:46
“Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.” my, how many preachers are goin to hell? my pastor brent said that very often while preaching. 1 Peter 5:3
“Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.” most everything Jesus showed me is caddie wompussed. not good brethrens. open Jesus house of prayer everyday and become His doorkeeper and that will keep some of you leaders out of hell. Jesus dont need no more "mr microphones" he needs praying leaders that show His people how everyday. Acts 3:1
“Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.”
no need to relate to modern society Mathew 20:
22But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
the principles of missions i agree with also. but to authority over men, umm no. unbiblical.
pastors are to lead as examples, prayer, feed, sacrifice, towels, toilets, servants of all. not to lead like gentiles Jesus already told you.
AZUSA. great example of holy ghost led. biblically they didnt know anything, but ... the results speak, the fruit of it
To Mousy Miller, I've noticed my entire life how UPC people are all talk. Trust in God and realize that only He will provide your needs. Pride and self-willed deceit has blinded people since Adam. UPC are no exceptions. They have never answered any comment or question of mine, nor understand Greek and Hebrew.
They should take up an offering for you, and continue helping, but they won't.
God will send help, I believe.
God help us all in these trying times.