It's been brought to my attention that 12AU7s are not always interchangeable with 12AT7 or 12AX7. I've happened to have a couple of amps that could accept both 12AU7 and 12AT7 so I was slightly misled by my experiences. Apologies for the error!
@ericelmore887 I haven't specifically tried those, but I've tried some nice NOS Philips tubes and some others (maybe Siemens?) I find that you can match the level of quality of the Ray Select tubes with some NOS tubes, but it's a little more of a lucky dip and they sound different, but of similar quality.
Plus one for your, much more experienced, impressions. I’m a tube noobie. Heard my first tube amp at the Schittr this past Xmas and realized that all those tube-heads paying big bucks for more distortion than Solid State, were (surprise!) not living in placebo heaven. Started budgeting. Then Josh V came along effusively praising the Xduoo TA-22 balanced tube DAC/amp and I jumped on it. Enjoyed it more with dynamic drivers, including my personal flagship, the Focal Clear MG. But didn’t think I had matched my “Schitty“ experience. Planned to upgrade to a better tube amp in future. Then Apos announced the Ray. I have felt Apos to be a brand truly trying to be an audiophile resource, so knowing they were pricey I bought the Ray pair from them, trusting in their expertise which I lack. One of my better “Here goes nothin’” decisions. I no longer have upgrade plans, just plans to move the amp plus Rays into a main system preamp configuration so I can hear what they do with my speakers!
While pin out is identical between 12AU7, 12AT7 and 12AX7, you should NEVER roll tubes between these various types in most applications. The 12AU7 is a very low gain triode, the 12AX7 is 5X times higher gain, requiring very different biasing circuit. For some older guitar amps and preamps that may have a variable resistor for manual biasing, you can interchange as long as you have dmm and the knowledge/skill to properly setup the circuit for that tube. The 12AT7 is a medium gain triode, 3 x the gain of the 12AU7. I’ve never heard these new Apos , hopefully they are as good as you claim and are widely available. I’d still prefer the NOS Amperex D-getter from Holland, though they are VERY difficult to find and 70 years since production shut down. The Bugle Boy branded Amperex also are quite good. I personally avoid Telefunken in all 3 variants of ECC81(AT7), ECC82(AU7), ECC83(AX7), though their 6922 are quite decent. 70’s Mullard 12AU7 would be interesting comp to this nee Apos Ray as NOS stock is still reasonably plentiful and price for matched pair is very similar.
That is great news about the Apos beeing that good. Stocks for NOS are thinning out and prices increasing, so great that we are getting new production tubes at good qualities now.
Thanks for tube coverage.. I have multiple tube amps and agree that tube rolling is a very important part of the amp sound but also a fun part. I have a great collection of NOS tubes so will have to check these out when they come out with 12AX7.
Great review. One of the problems in doing tube reviews is that pure tube amps rarely have architectures that support rolling a wide variety of tube types. Maybe you can swap out for another 12ax7 etc, but changing tubes often requires new voltages, power supplies, bias set points etc. A good tube rolling amp will support 12AX7, 12AU7, 6DJ8 and many other 6 and 12v 9 pin 2-channel tubes with auto-bias and heater voltage selection. This usually requires a hybrid architecture with the tube acting as a stage one preamp and some form of solid state driver stage for the headphones. That's exactly what you want -- the tube preamp imparting its sonic signature with a very high performance circuit isolating the headphone drivers from the equation.
I recently purchased a Reisong A10 EL34 tube amplifier, did some tube rolling, and discovered something special about the Ray EL34 Select tubes. After rolling four different tubes, including my favorite at the time of testing, the Telefunken Black Diamond EL34, I tried the Ray EL34s Select matched pair. The Ray's performed a little bit better than the Telefunken pair. They delivered a cleaner, yet punchier sound, and and a slightly wider sound stage. My circuit included the Rotel CD11MKII cd player and the Geshelli J2 DAC w/ the AK4493 DAC chip. I used a pair of Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-600M II bookshelf speakers to round out the circuit. I highly recommend Rays, if one has an accommodating budget. Otherwise, the Telefunken Black Diamond EL34 is a great tube to substitute.
Thanks for a great review I’ve made the move back to tubes and bought a pair of 30 year old monoblocks. Four JJ ECC802S in each block and Four NOS 6C4C power tubes in each. The new amps have killed some harshness I was getting from Lowther based speakers so it’s particularly important for me not to change tubes and put that back in the system. Apps Ray sound like they’ll do what I need and put a little sparkle back. Prices aren’t terrible compared to a lot of other premium price tubes. JJ Black sable reviews suggest they can put some harshness into the top end. I’m in NZ but Amazon will ship them.
That's great that you've found a way to improve the sound of your system. I'm hoping that Apos will have a solution in our part of the world soon to that we can access their tubes, cables and headphones (i.e. the Apos branded stuff that's not available elsewhere)
Your doing good work here, always balanced and most importantly honest opinions. Looking for a set of premium AU7's for my BHK Preamp, coming from Gold Lions Iheard the Ray's were a bit special, sawna few videos on T'Tube that backed that up. Yours was great, as I knew it came from wanting to pass on a good thing.
Hopefully these new production tubes are a success and Apos starts making 6V variants as well like the ECC88 since I have mostly tube amps that use those.
I have a similar setup with the same speakers (Harbeth P3ESR-XD) but with a Muzishare X7 amp (KT88). I tried the Electroharminox 12AU7 Gold (balanced pair). I didn't care for them at all. Like you mentioned they are brighter sounding. But the deep, 3D soundstage I had previously enjoyed was almost completely gone with the Electroharmonix tubes. Tempted to try the Apos Ray tubes. I see they have a 45 day return policy which is nice.
Which tubes should i roll to affect the sound of my integrated amp? I have a total of 10 tubes. Output tubes, rectifier tubes, preamp tubes, and a couple others. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.
That's a great question. In order of importance, I'd recommend the preamp or output tubes (equally important) and then the rectifier tubes as less important, but not irrelevant. Without knowing what the others do, I can't say for sure, but they're likely less relevant and outside the signal path.
Always appreciate your input Lachlan. Any personal experience with anything in the Feliks Audio line? What can we do to get Zach to send you a demo decware/ZMF OTL??
I've listened to a Feliks at a show, but that's all so far. It's always a tough ask for companies to send large, expensive tube amps from the northern hemisphere to Australia.
If the AposRay is as good as the Amperex 7316 or Raytheon 7028, then shout hallelujah. Those valves were epiphanies. I had read the great HP mentioning sound stages that were "lit up all over", and these two were responsible for my hearing it. But I don't know if they are even available. I bought mine back in the eighties, and i had a hell of a time finding good ones then. Does anybody here listen to IEMs with tubes? Interesting you mention Ken rad 6sn7. The ten or so ive heard, mostly Vt231, sounded bassy. What would be a good 12au7 tube amp for IEM?
I can't say if the Rays are as good as those NOS tubes, but they're definitely excellent in general. Tubes and IEMs can be tricky due to noise, but I've used my Bottlehead Mainline with IEMs and some of the hybrid amps like the xDuoo TA20 Plus (just arrived for review) could be good and that one uses 12AU7s.
I use a 6922 in my Woo OTL, recently changed to using a socket adapter that converts them to a 6SN7. The adapters are available for the 12AU7 also. There is no way I can change back because the 6SN7 gives so much more stage and room size to everything. It is ironic the timing of your reviews, I have literially just pluged in my new 6SN7c (Coke shape) and they are better than my Tungsol.
This family of tubes isn’t universally interchangeable. I wanted to lower the gain of a Traynor guitar amp I replaced a 12AX7 in one position with an AU7 and I instantly smoked a plate resistor. Easy fix with the replaced resistor. Just be cautious and be smart. Check the work.
Yes, someone else mentioned that the current requirements are also different between the tubes so it will depend on the specific design of the amp. I've pinned a comment about it as a correction. 🙂
Great video again! Only quality content! I have use nos tube but for my 1978 yaesu radio communications and power amp! In the music/audio department I only have a duo 601 pair with a Sennheiser 58x! Always wondered how it will sound by changing the tube, but spending more than double of what my duo 601 cost in a tube have stopped me to do sow! Do I make the purchase or just get another tube amp! And do I need another amp for just my 58x, if I get another amp do I need to get a better headphone? That the question I always get in my way when in searching, and just stop and don't get nothing! Lol
I wouldn't spend that much for an xDuoo 601. You'll be better off upgrading the amp. I've just received the xDuoo TA-20 Plus and it's pretty cool. Review is a little way off, but it might be one to watch out for.
Having a xDuoo TA20+ on its way to me soon and RayTubes not available here in Germany, the ElectroHarmonix with their deeper and slightly tubier sound might pair well with the TA20+ being a hybrid :) Psvane Art series are also on my watch 👀
@@PassionforSound saw them compared to the raytubes in another Video today, and yes seems like it, thank you :) i can get a pair of factory matched ones for about 85€ (~90US$), can't go wrong with that i think.
Glad you like the channel. I'm afraid I have no influence over the tubes they make. I suspect it will be based on the demand and the other products sold by Apos.
300B tubes would be fantastic but my guess is it’s way too much $ investment and the niche is so small as the 300b tube amp market is limited and very high end. Love the 300b and 845 tube sounds though.
Cool new tube! Not sure they’ll outshine my Telefunken G73-R (about a $400-$500 single tube when you can find it NOS), but I’m pretty curious to hear these. You never know!
It's quite possible that some of those very expensive NOS tubes will still be better, but price and availability made these very appealing for me once I heard them.
You really shouldn't put stuff out if you don't understand the subject. 12au7 are not simply interchangeable with 12ax7 or 12at7. They may light up and make noise but you'll be tampering with linearity and moving the amp away from spec. People listen to you. You owe to your viewers to be informed.
I was basing that on information I had been told or read elsewhere (from reputable sources). I can only know as much as I know and can't know if there are gaps or nuances to that.
It's been brought to my attention that 12AU7s are not always interchangeable with 12AT7 or 12AX7. I've happened to have a couple of amps that could accept both 12AU7 and 12AT7 so I was slightly misled by my experiences. Apologies for the error!
@passionforsound have you tired N.O.S. telefunken or Siemens 12au7 to compare rays 12au7?
@ericelmore887 I haven't specifically tried those, but I've tried some nice NOS Philips tubes and some others (maybe Siemens?)
I find that you can match the level of quality of the Ray Select tubes with some NOS tubes, but it's a little more of a lucky dip and they sound different, but of similar quality.
Plus one for your, much more experienced, impressions. I’m a tube noobie. Heard my first tube amp at the Schittr this past Xmas and realized that all those tube-heads paying big bucks for more distortion than Solid State, were (surprise!) not living in placebo heaven. Started budgeting. Then Josh V came along effusively praising the Xduoo TA-22 balanced tube DAC/amp and I jumped on it. Enjoyed it more with dynamic drivers, including my personal flagship, the Focal Clear MG. But didn’t think I had matched my “Schitty“ experience. Planned to upgrade to a better tube amp in future. Then Apos announced the Ray.
I have felt Apos to be a brand truly trying to be an audiophile resource, so knowing they were pricey I bought the Ray pair from them, trusting in their expertise which I lack. One of my better “Here goes nothin’” decisions. I no longer have upgrade plans, just plans to move the amp plus Rays into a main system preamp configuration so I can hear what they do with my speakers!
While pin out is identical between 12AU7, 12AT7 and 12AX7, you should NEVER roll tubes between these various types in most applications. The 12AU7 is a very low gain triode, the 12AX7 is 5X times higher gain, requiring very different biasing circuit. For some older guitar amps and preamps that may have a variable resistor for manual biasing, you can interchange as long as you have dmm and the knowledge/skill to properly setup the circuit for that tube. The 12AT7 is a medium gain triode, 3 x the gain of the 12AU7.
I’ve never heard these new Apos , hopefully they are as good as you claim and are widely available. I’d still prefer the NOS Amperex D-getter from Holland, though they are VERY difficult to find and 70 years since production shut down. The Bugle Boy branded Amperex also are quite good. I personally avoid Telefunken in all 3 variants of ECC81(AT7), ECC82(AU7), ECC83(AX7), though their 6922 are quite decent. 70’s Mullard 12AU7 would be interesting comp to this nee Apos Ray as NOS stock is still reasonably plentiful and price for matched pair is very similar.
I've pinned a comment about the tube rolling. Thank you
That is great news about the Apos beeing that good. Stocks for NOS are thinning out and prices increasing, so great that we are getting new production tubes at good qualities now.
That was my feeling too. Hopefully they'll expand their range with other models now.
thanks for the analysis! hopefully they will flesh out their line and maintain the quality across it as well
That's what I'm hoping too
Thanks for tube coverage.. I have multiple tube amps and agree that tube rolling is a very important part of the amp sound but also a fun part. I have a great collection of NOS tubes so will have to check these out when they come out with 12AX7.
My pleasure. I do hope they expand the range.
I find it amazing that there are still warehouses full of tubes made decades ago.
It's bizarre, isn't it? It's getting harder and harder now though.
Thank you. Exactly the review I wanted and needed.
I'm so glad I could help!
Great review. One of the problems in doing tube reviews is that pure tube amps rarely have architectures that support rolling a wide variety of tube types. Maybe you can swap out for another 12ax7 etc, but changing tubes often requires new voltages, power supplies, bias set points etc. A good tube rolling amp will support 12AX7, 12AU7, 6DJ8 and many other 6 and 12v 9 pin 2-channel tubes with auto-bias and heater voltage selection. This usually requires a hybrid architecture with the tube acting as a stage one preamp and some form of solid state driver stage for the headphones. That's exactly what you want -- the tube preamp imparting its sonic signature with a very high performance circuit isolating the headphone drivers from the equation.
12au7 tubes are not fully interchangeable with 12ax7 and 12at7. The au has much lower gain and higher current output.
I've pinned a comment about this. Thank you
I recently purchased a Reisong A10 EL34 tube amplifier, did some tube rolling, and discovered something special about the Ray EL34 Select tubes. After rolling four different tubes, including my favorite at the time of testing, the Telefunken Black Diamond EL34, I tried the Ray EL34s Select matched pair. The Ray's performed a little bit better than the Telefunken pair. They delivered a cleaner, yet punchier sound, and and a slightly wider sound stage. My circuit included the Rotel CD11MKII cd player and the Geshelli J2 DAC w/ the AK4493 DAC chip. I used a pair of Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-600M II bookshelf speakers to round out the circuit. I highly recommend Rays, if one has an accommodating budget. Otherwise, the Telefunken Black Diamond EL34 is a great tube to substitute.
Thanks for sharing your experiences! There's an EL34 RESERVE tube on the way soon...
@@PassionforSound Thanks, Lachlan. Much appreciated. Love your podcast!
@PVGS500slow that's nice to hear. I was having trouble allocating time for the podcast, but would love to revisit it in the future.
Thanks for a great review I’ve made the move back to tubes and bought a pair of 30 year old monoblocks. Four JJ ECC802S in each block and Four NOS 6C4C power tubes in each. The new amps have killed some harshness I was getting from Lowther based speakers so it’s particularly important for me not to change tubes and put that back in the system. Apps Ray sound like they’ll do what I need and put a little sparkle back. Prices aren’t terrible compared to a lot of other premium price tubes. JJ Black sable reviews suggest they can put some harshness into the top end. I’m in NZ but Amazon will ship them.
That's great that you've found a way to improve the sound of your system. I'm hoping that Apos will have a solution in our part of the world soon to that we can access their tubes, cables and headphones (i.e. the Apos branded stuff that's not available elsewhere)
Your doing good work here, always balanced and most importantly honest opinions.
Looking for a set of premium AU7's for my BHK Preamp, coming from Gold Lions Iheard the Ray's were a bit special, sawna few videos on T'Tube that backed that up.
Yours was great, as I knew it came from wanting to pass on a good thing.
I'm glad you feel that way. That's always my intention. The Ray Tubes really are excellent!
Hopefully these new production tubes are a success and Apos starts making 6V variants as well like the ECC88 since I have mostly tube amps that use those.
I'd love to see them expand the range too.
I have a similar setup with the same speakers (Harbeth P3ESR-XD) but with a Muzishare X7 amp (KT88). I tried the Electroharminox 12AU7 Gold (balanced pair). I didn't care for them at all. Like you mentioned they are brighter sounding. But the deep, 3D soundstage I had previously enjoyed was almost completely gone with the Electroharmonix tubes. Tempted to try the Apos Ray tubes. I see they have a 45 day return policy which is nice.
I'm really not a fan of the Gold Lions due to their flat staging. You'll have no such issues with the Rays.
Which tubes should i roll to affect the sound of my integrated amp? I have a total of 10 tubes. Output tubes, rectifier tubes, preamp tubes, and a couple others. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.
That's a great question. In order of importance, I'd recommend the preamp or output tubes (equally important) and then the rectifier tubes as less important, but not irrelevant. Without knowing what the others do, I can't say for sure, but they're likely less relevant and outside the signal path.
Always appreciate your input Lachlan. Any personal experience with anything in the Feliks Audio line? What can we do to get Zach to send you a demo decware/ZMF OTL??
I've listened to a Feliks at a show, but that's all so far. It's always a tough ask for companies to send large, expensive tube amps from the northern hemisphere to Australia.
If the AposRay is as good as the Amperex 7316 or Raytheon 7028, then shout hallelujah. Those valves were epiphanies. I had read the great HP mentioning sound stages that were "lit up all over", and these two were responsible for my hearing it. But I don't know if they are even available. I bought mine back in the eighties, and i had a hell of a time finding good ones then.
Does anybody here listen to IEMs with tubes?
Interesting you mention Ken rad 6sn7. The ten or so ive heard, mostly Vt231, sounded bassy.
What would be a good 12au7 tube amp for IEM?
I can't say if the Rays are as good as those NOS tubes, but they're definitely excellent in general.
Tubes and IEMs can be tricky due to noise, but I've used my Bottlehead Mainline with IEMs and some of the hybrid amps like the xDuoo TA20 Plus (just arrived for review) could be good and that one uses 12AU7s.
I use a 6922 in my Woo OTL, recently changed to using a socket adapter that converts them to a 6SN7. The adapters are available for the 12AU7 also. There is no way I can change back because the 6SN7 gives so much more stage and room size to everything. It is ironic the timing of your reviews, I have literially just pluged in my new 6SN7c (Coke shape) and they are better than my Tungsol.
I love the 6SN7s!
Lachlan, have you been to or bought from Tube Audio @ Latrobe st? i'm looking at their Gold Lion
I'm not sure - perhaps online. Are you looking at the 12AU7 Gold Lions? If so, I find them quite flat in the soundstage - not my favourite tubes.
@@PassionforSound yes, just looking at comparing to pair of Mullard friend got me
Never touched my tubes with bare fingers - is that ok now with these?
Yes, you can touch tubes with bare fingers. Just make sure you let them cool first 😉
😅
This family of tubes isn’t universally interchangeable. I wanted to lower the gain of a Traynor guitar amp I replaced a 12AX7 in one position with an AU7 and I instantly smoked a plate resistor. Easy fix with the replaced resistor. Just be cautious and be smart. Check the work.
Yes, someone else mentioned that the current requirements are also different between the tubes so it will depend on the specific design of the amp. I've pinned a comment about it as a correction. 🙂
no 6sn7's yet 😭 i'll keep an eye on them, thanks duderooney! ✌😎👍
That's what I want to see too!
Still waiting for Ananda Nano's review and comparison with similar headphones. When are you tentatively planning to post the video on that?
I recorded it on Monday. Dropping not this weekend, but the one after
Great video again! Only quality content! I have use nos tube but for my 1978 yaesu radio communications and power amp! In the music/audio department I only have a duo 601 pair with a Sennheiser 58x! Always wondered how it will sound by changing the tube, but spending more than double of what my duo 601 cost in a tube have stopped me to do sow! Do I make the purchase or just get another tube amp! And do I need another amp for just my 58x, if I get another amp do I need to get a better headphone? That the question I always get in my way when in searching, and just stop and don't get nothing! Lol
I wouldn't spend that much for an xDuoo 601. You'll be better off upgrading the amp. I've just received the xDuoo TA-20 Plus and it's pretty cool. Review is a little way off, but it might be one to watch out for.
Having a xDuoo TA20+ on its way to me soon and RayTubes not available here in Germany, the ElectroHarmonix with their deeper and slightly tubier sound might pair well with the TA20+ being a hybrid :)
Psvane Art series are also on my watch 👀
The Psvane should be quite close to the Ray tubes, I suspect.
@@PassionforSound saw them compared to the raytubes in another Video today, and yes seems like it, thank you :)
i can get a pair of factory matched ones for about 85€ (~90US$), can't go wrong with that i think.
Great RUclips channel and please get Ray co to make KT170 tubes and 300b tubes.
Glad you like the channel. I'm afraid I have no influence over the tubes they make. I suspect it will be based on the demand and the other products sold by Apos.
300B tubes would be fantastic but my guess is it’s way too much $ investment and the niche is so small as the 300b tube amp market is limited and very high end. Love the 300b and 845 tube sounds though.
Cool new tube! Not sure they’ll outshine my Telefunken G73-R (about a $400-$500 single tube when you can find it NOS), but I’m pretty curious to hear these. You never know!
It's quite possible that some of those very expensive NOS tubes will still be better, but price and availability made these very appealing for me once I heard them.
You really shouldn't put stuff out if you don't understand the subject. 12au7 are not simply interchangeable with 12ax7 or 12at7. They may light up and make noise but you'll be tampering with linearity and moving the amp away from spec. People listen to you. You owe to your viewers to be informed.
I was basing that on information I had been told or read elsewhere (from reputable sources). I can only know as much as I know and can't know if there are gaps or nuances to that.
Silicon or death.
Are you saying tube death or burnt finger death?
Psvane is pronounced puh-van
🤣🤣
I've always wondered that!
there is something odd with the sound quality of your voice, like the extra encoding made it worse
There's no extra encoding being done. I was a bit croaky for a recent recording - perhaps it's that