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Have I got a bone to pick with you Mister! Actually I don't. I just don't want you to experience disappointment when you're expecting folks to get all worked up about your video and not enough of us actually do. We all have selective hearing, just ask our wives! Seriously though, if you're male and over 50, statistically a wife's hearing will be better than her partner's. A walk in nature with my wife proves this for me. "Can you hear that high pitch bird call" - Me: "No, what bird". I remember how lousy a portable CD player in the 80's sounded when you outputted it RCA into a home stereo. Pretty sure it was due to the bottom of the shelf DAC inside the player. Man, do we ever need to find the middle ground more than ever, especially this weekend. Great video! Onward to finding a speaker that matches my sleep number (hearing loss profile).
Great you brought this up. There is a forum where they have someone doing great measurements. I enjoy that and respect it because yes measurements does matter. But they also say stooped sh.. like all DACs sound like if they measure perfect Wich sadly means they are hearing impaired 😂. Good work Randy
enjoyed the video, one factor you forgot to mention on the speaker discussion is the listening room variable, and thank God we have speakers with different characteristics as we compensate for our hearing our listening room and most importantly what sounds best to us!
As a "high-end" manufacturer of audio components, GAS Co. was continually approached by "golden-eared audiophiles" claiming the amplifier or preamplifier they owned clearly sounded superior to any of the GAS Co. products we were producing. I would always invite these individuals into the sound room with their preferred audio component and proceed to connect it to the switching system. I would have them select a comparable GAS Co. component that I also connected to the system and then carefully adjusted both components with a precision AC voltmeter for equal levels. Before the testing commenced, I would give the audiophile the remote lanyard--a small handheld box with a toggle switch labeled A or B. I always told them that the "A" position was their piece of equipment and the "B" position was the GAS Co. equipment. After exhaustively auditioning the two components, the golden eared individual would always have a litany of subjective terms that negatively described the sound of the GAS Co. component such as: "overall dullness", "lack of transparency", "ill defined bass", "irritating midrange", "shrill highs", "lack of depth", "unstable imaging"..... ad nauseam. While the audiophile was espousing these opinions, I would bring the level of the music back up, then casually walk over to the components, switch off the power to the GAS Co. component and ask the audiophile to please toggle the lanyard switch between A and B. Unbeknownst to the audiophile, I had connected the switching system exclusively to their component only. During the test when they switched from A to B, the sound audibly dropped-out during the switching process for a few milliseconds cueing the listener that something had changed. When the audiophile realized that I had clearly demonstrated that their golden ears were not golden at all, they would quickly disconnect their component from the system, and while stomping out of the listening room, turn around, and, depending on how invested they were in believing they had golden ears, generally espouse a litany of profanities directed at me. Don't shoot the messenger! David Riddle
Great information. This is why people need to listen to things for themselves to see and come up with there own opinions while still taking in information that great reviewers like Randy provides.
Still, it sounds a bit weird to me if a reviewer judges a speaker (or anything else in audio) while based upon his own, individual hearing loss..? We also need some objective bases to start and compare with. Starting from there, knowing thyself (i.e. your own preferences and/or the characteristics of your hearing loss), you can find your own way. Or use EQ? There 're things like hardware equalizers, (mini-)DSP's and software like Equalizer APO. With a Umik microphone kit you can adjust for your listening room as well.
Well said Randy. Made me smile every time you said "Dumb"!!😂 People need to get back to thinking for themsleves and forming their own research based opinions!!
You have gained a lot of insight and a lot of wisdom in the course of your RUclips career. It is a great thing to watch, and the better you get, the better it is for all of us.
Actually, about the speaker response, you’re absolutely correct. And furthermore, why would you have to have a system that the response was flat out to 30 or 40 kHz ? You’re just going to piss off your dog !😉
Everything sounds different. Your ears will adjust and learn to enjoy just about anything if the thing just works. Only audiophiles act as if they have perfect audio memory.
Swapping out the crossover with expensive parts to flatten the frequency response and declaring it to "be better" is 100% opinion. Many people will not like taking out the characteristics that make their speakers sound like Polks or Klipsch or KEF and their opinion is also 100% valid.
Spot on, I got back into Hifi a year or so ago. DACs were built in CD players before, changing them wasn't much of a thing. So I purchased a used Bluesound Vault and hooked it up to my NAD receiver, both quality components, initially using the DAC in the Bleusound. It sound differents using RCAs, Optic to the NAD and Coax digital to the NAD, the last may say more about the cable. The optical cable and the NAD's DAC sounds best. In any event it does matter. I'm not a trained listener, musician or any sort of musician.
Silly and fun intro! Thanks again for another useful video, delivered with passion! 🙃 Everyone who hasn't subscribed, do a solid for Mr. Cheap Audio Extraordinaire!
My favorite bit of hifi nonsense is people (including Paul from PS Audio) hyping Tesla Powerwalls as improvers of sound quality because they "condition" the power. They do no such thing, matching voltage and frequency to the line input. I had Powerwalls installed for other reasons and they did absolutely nothing for sound quality (no surprise!)
On metal core inductor coils in speaker crossovers - the physics of what is happening is well known. The windings create a magnetic field, and the orientation of the field (i.e. the north/south poles of the magnetic field) is determined by the direction the signal voltage is flowing. If you use your right hand with the 4 fingers curved in the direction the voltage is flowing - your thumb is pointing toward the north pole of the magnetic field. This is called the Right Hand Rule. Since music is an AC voltage - the direction of flow reverses 180 degrees at two times the frequency of the signal. This means the magnetic field around the inductor coil has to reverse "instantly" at twice the frequency of the music at that moment. This matters *because* ferrous metal "holds" the magnetic field for a short period of time - it has a delay lag, and the magnetic field lingers - and this "smears" the music. The reason that metal core inductors are used is, they don't require as many windings to achieve the desired induction value. Since the wire used to make the coil is shorter, it can be a smaller gauge - so this saves money. An air core coil requires longer piece of wire, and therefore needs to be a larger gauge to keep the same DCR. Using an air core inductor coil has a *very* audible difference in the sound you hear; because they do not have magnetic eddy currents.
@@chemania1 Right - and the thing to remember too, is that a music signal has *many* frequencies all at once, so the complexity of all the interactions within an inductor coil is exponentially greater.
I think a more accurate description of some people’s position on dacs is that dacs that measure well well sound the same. I don’t think they would expect the echo dac and an smsl dac to sound the same.
Brilliant! And I’m not even British. Oooooh they gonna be mad at you! I’m here for it. Keep it up man! Good stuff. I’m going to an audio show to check out ghselli based in part to you introducing them. Picked up a WiiM Pro+. Good stuff. Hell I may by you a cup of Joe!
DACs don't sound the same, that's for sure, but once you reach a point of decent quality, diminishing returns hits hard! Those $500-1000 DACs barely improve the sound compared to the $100-200 DACs. The improvement is like 5-15% and a lot of them are sidegrades rather than upgrades. Upgrading Amps on the other hand are 2-3 times more noticeable than DACs.
You nailed it. Being fed with all sorts of information especially from certain publications and went through that rabbit hole only to find myself disappointed and thinking if this is what an audiophile system should sound like than this hobby is not for me. Thanks to people like you, I started believing in my personal tastes and tailored my system the way that it would allow me to listen for hours and not break the bank and feel crappy about it. I am one happy camper and feel good for once being smart with my money which isn’t growing on trees.
I've never heard an audiophile say DACs, Amps, and crossovers sound the same. It's the anti-audiophile that says those things. Audiophiles insist that everything sounds different, and the more you spend, the better your system sounds. And the speaker/amp/subwoofer/cable etc you own is crap compared to theirs.
Well I took your advise and others on the positive reviews of the Geshelli dac and ordered it. Its the J2S with the Sparkos opamp on the outputs of the rca, with AK4493 chip.
DAC's... I've recorded & mixed through a few different pro AD/DA units- Focusrite 2i2, UA Apollo Duo, etc. The differences aren't merely subtle. Not one pro recording engineer in Nashville would claim they're all the same, and we've been hearing differences since the Sony PCM-F1. Converters in Alesis stuff early on (ADAT) were significantly inferior to Sony or Mitsubishi DASH multitracks (no surprise there, based on price). Early CD players had significant phase shift by frequency, because of steep Nyquist anti-aliasing filters (the source of 'brittleness', not because it was 'digital vs. analog').
Different phones sound different, let alone getting into stand alone DAC's. I am shocked at how many do say they all sound the same..... I guess there are a lot of people with damaged hearing???
Yah. Back when I tested a HK AVR 320 and a Yamaha HTR 5560 among others, I could hear a huge difference between them. The HK had much more powerful bass, especially when driving bookshelf speakers and no sub. HK had less hissing, too.
All equipment sounds the same unless you have audiophile cables that are isolated on cable risers. 😂😂 You have made my day and weekend with this presentation, brother. BTW, my Crown certainly doesn't sound the same as my Marantz or Rotel. 😂😂😂
Still new to the whole audio thing. But now know enough to know I don't know anything. Anyway I'm happy with what I have and I just enjoy the music. :) Love your channel!
Haha. This did make me smile. I am quite new to the audio side of listening as always used high end av amps etc. well now I have a streamer dac and amp etc I have noticed a lot of difference. Even down to the cables to inter connect. But again like said it’s a personal experience as we all have our own opinions and what we like and I think that’s the most important but… individual opinions. No one is right or wrong as such. It’s just what they prefer to listen to
Re speakers should have a flat frequency response? I can see or appreciate your POV but i will suggest that speakers with a flat frequency response are probably easier to eq adjust to personal taste than speakers with a more defined personality. True you could buy a speaker that matches your taste and hearing profile, but tastes often change over time. With the ability to shape eq i woud think flat response speakers would be better at modeling a different sound signature.
It's funny, and I'm sure I am not the only one that does this. First, this video is listed as end-to-end as 16:42, but to me it's well over 45 minutes due to rewinding for notes and thoughts on the subject. The second, I end up having up to 10 - 15+ explorer/chrome/etc. tabs open while watching to get more details on the details CAM is going over. I LOVE it!
Randy, THANK YOU THANK YOU for doing this episode and continuing to battle the Dunning-Kruger effect. I've worked with audio for career and play for over 40 years and Ive heard the same comments all along. I tell them to get a new stylus for the turntable in their 10', 1970 Philco "entertainment center".
I would counter the flat frequency response point in saying that the goal of most well engineered speakers is to measure flat or smooth anechoically. There is tons of research out there over the years by Floyd Toole and others that proves this. This makes the speaker easy to EQ to a listener's taste after the fact in room. Buying a speaker because of its deviations from flat producing a "signature" sound just seems silly to me. You are essentially paying money for an EQ curve which could just be implemented for free via room correction or EQ software after the fact. So in summary, buy well engineered speakers with a smooth frequency response on and off axis and EQ to taste as needed.
I agree, flat obviously better for exactly the reasons you give. However, there are other speaker characteristics than frequency response that are of equal importance when choosing a speaker. Sound dispersion characteristics come to mind. Here I am thinking more of omni vs dipole vs box rather that off axis response, which admittedly differ largely in off axis response, but to such a radical degree, that it's a different conversation than I think you meant to convey.
The definition of hi fidelity is a reproduction of music to it's most accurate recording. Flat is the most acccurate. You can equalize it or change it but that's not the definition of hi fidelity.
Oh I remember reading a forum post years ago where a guy was trying to convince everyone that all amps sound the same. He wrote an entire thesis with mathematical equations, technical mumbo jumbo, the works. It was insane.
Most of your observations are correct, however I don't think you know the backstory about "speakers should have a flat frequency". Back in the day, Dr. Floyd Toole (author of "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" and former VP at Harman Audio) was in charge of the National Research Council in Canada and he conducted a number of tests with a wide variety of listeners (non-audiophiles) to find out what people preferred when listening to a speaker. His research found that when comparing two or more speakers, listeners perceived the speaker having the flattest frequency response as subjectively sounding "better". This research helped launched the Canadian speaker industry (Paradigm and PSB are still around but back then there were at least a half dozen very succesful brands, many of which were eventually acquired by others). This is the reason why audiophiles look for speakers with a flat frequency response - the research shows they sound better (even to non-audiophiles). Certainly room size and shape, speaker placement, etc. all play an important role, but everything else being equal, flattest frequency response will sound better. FYI, Dr. Floyd Toole has a PhD in Applied Physics from the University of London and has won many awards from the Audio Engineering Society (AES) for his contributions. So looking for a loudspeaker having a flat frequency is neither stupid nor crap because it is backed by large amounts of data using many listeners.
Thanks for the video. How sound is perceived varies from person to person and room to room. Measurements by machines are helpful but we don’t all hear as well as the machine. I believe it’s important to listen to a piece of new equipment with your system in your listening room and decide what sounds good to you. That’s why I Only buy equipment from companies or retailers that let you buy and try and return for free if needed. Rock and rant on Randy!
Thanks for the video! Some of your ads have volumes so loud that I tear my headphones off because it’s faster than turning down the volume on my computer. You probably have no control over it but perhaps a warning to your viewers cause it is ridiculous and painful. Damn RUclips!
Re crossover components, they don't matter if you don't have a cross-over in your speaker, i.e. use a single driver, full-range speaker. Amp - speaker, straight line. Yes, they exist, and I love mine. Fun video. Thanks!
I have four dacs, four amps and seven sets of audiophile headphones and they all sound different. I also have several sets of non audiophile grade headphones. Go listen to some Beats by Dre, then go listen to HE 4XX and tell me thry sound the same.
Yes, in a digital system ..the quality of the output stage , power supply and output options ( balanced/ rca) along with input and controls ..they all add something to the quality or lack there of.
In the Year 2023 expecting people to think beyond their preconceived gullible and ignorant opinions is asking a whole lot brother. Proof is all around us. 😢
I suspect most folks here are aware of the conflation of flat frequency response and pleasing sound. Audiophile culture is historically built around pursuing empirical accuracy of devices used to record and reproduce audio - not the subjective pursuit of what sounds good. To paraphrase the late John Dunlavy: if we understand what matters, measure it accurately, then engineer accordingly, the reproduction should match what was recorded - whether that is subjectively good or bad is outside the scope of the discussion. Playing music through accurate speakers and accommodating the listeners taste in song or EQ are all different things. Most audiophiles I’ve met understand this and acknowledge that speakers don’t have to be perfectly accurate to sound good. In fact, there is no such thing as a perfectly accurate speaker or stereo system. Some of the confusion is generated by “audiophiles” who forget the distinction and overstep, to dictate what is subjectively good for others. Nobody says you have to drive yourself crazy pursuing technical accuracy in your gear in order to appreciate music; but you can if you want and there’s nothing wrong with that, either. And some of the confusion is generated by marketing hype around the word “audiophile” to the point that the term is now effectively meaningless. But hey, if it generates clicks to malign the label, I guess the term still has some value. 🙂
As far as amps go, I am lucky enough to own a McIntosh MC300. The difference between it and the power section in my Pioneer Elite receiver is staggering. Honestly, with any other amp I've tried as well. The MC300 also weighs nearly 100lbs. I am currently using an Adcom, and it sounds like Walmart grade comparatively.
@@welderfixer it is the end game, but I'm not using it because I'm going to sell it. I had to ween myself off. It's still depressing. I trade some work for a rich client for it. I used to have a preamp and cd player too. Sounded like the total endgame with my garage sale B&W DM620s.
@@MikePowersTSIG I wish I was in the financial position to buy the MC300 from you. I am sure I would enjoy it for a very long time. Currently, The wonderful NAD 214 amp that was given to me is such a joy to listen to everything through. I haven't had any of the speakers I've played on the NAD sound bad. I think the amp is the key item in a system. I wish you all the very best, Kevin
Overkill amplifiers do have certain advantages, one being a power supply section that has the reserve energy to push momentary transients out properly.
In Korea I walked into my local HIFI store looking for a 3.5 jack cable for my focal headphones. The store told me they didn't carry Focal products, and told me to look elsewhere. I said "No no, I am fine with any 3.5 cable." and half the people in room stopped and stared at me. The staff looked shocked and slightly panicked. One other customer who overheard me actually glared in my direction. I then realized I had offended them, even when they didn't carry Focal products and could make a sale to me today. I insisted they do though, and they begrudgingly went into the back and got a cable from Final audio that they had, all the while complaining to me that it won't sound the same. It did sound different! Because the original was broken.
Cool let’s see if this becomes another one of your top vids!!! Almost to 200k too, let’s go!!!🎉❤ I like the ‘tough love’ attitude here too, good stuff as always Randy
A flat frequency sweep is actually important for a 5.1/7.1 or above system for home audio (movies). For 2/2.1 music,, I agree, it's a personal choice and also depends on the music you listen to also. I bought a 200on huge tube down firing SVS subwoofer roughly 20 years ago . It had way more controls than what I was used to. It also had 3 tubes to pull in air. It came with foam so you had the option of filling 2 of them and get down to 16hz, which 8s bass you just feel in your chest, so good for movies, not music but thought I had it close enough but was roughly 10db above at roughly 25 to 30jz. Watched a movie, explosion, SVS was fine and handled with zero issues but I honestly thought something had actually exploded even though I was watching ammo or, it was LOUD. Didn't bother the SVS though but I do think it's more important for movies although most systems have some auto setup function and come with a mic for calibration now.
One problem I found years ago was going from dealer to dealer trying to compare. The other is commission sales dudes that equate dollars to quality. I do know of one dealer who doesn't pay commissions .
Right Randy.. it’s all a matter of degree.. in any given system, there’s going to be a quality level whereby going any further in “quality” with a particular component of the system will not yield any better sonic result, so for any given system, the cables, dacs, amps, or whatever, when changed, can alter the perception and viewpoint regarding the original component and its replacement. Edit: Once that happens, the actual weakest link would need to be identified to reach for the next level of sonic bliss (probably speakers lol).
Thanks for your content! Regarding speaker cables I think the number one difference people hear between two reasonable quality cables is first in their head and second maybe simply oxidation causing resistance at the connectors being cleaned when removing the old cables and putting the new ones in. Other claims about speaker cables need to eliminate all the other possible variations including the placebo effect that our brains introduce. Show me some legitimate double blind studies of speaker cables and how people with the very best hearing can accurately identify the better cables each time. No shade on anybody who wants to pay as much as they want for their audio jewelry but justifying it by saying that they can hear amazing difference needs to be demonstrated in ways that can eliminate the individual bias and expectations. Lastly, because someone takes the middle ground between personal anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence does not make them find the truth! Truth that comports with reality must be reliably and repeatedly demonstrated under strict controls.
Moved my Paradigm Monitor 7s to the family room and brought the Yamaha NS 6390s into my office. Finally got to experience listening fatigue after about 30 minutes with the Yamahas. Didn’t think that was a real thing before. Now running Emotiva B 1+s after your Tracy Chapman review and can listen for hours and hours. P.S. I prefer German chocolate cake.
There are some utter cobblers hifi geeks believe. The most hilarious are cables used for digital transmission such as HDMI or optical etc. It literally makes zero difference how much you spend because a digital signal is a digital signal. If the 1s and 0s get from one end of the cable to the other that's it. Nothing more to give. Even the engineers at the regulatory authority who issue the standards think it's hilarious when people spend hundreds on digital cables thinking it will make a difference to the sound.
I am 62 years old and I must have some hearing loss. I can’t tell the difference between the few DACS I have tried. That is probably down to my ears and not the equipment. I am sure can hear a difference 😊
I'm 63 and I can't either. But, I find with similar sounding gear there is usually one that is more engaging and that keeps me listening longer rather than getting fidgety. I almost never can identify why that one is more engaging, but the preference usually persists over time. I have experienced this with DACs, amps, preamps and vinyl vs digital. In all cases, I end up wanting to listen to one piece of gear in preference to the other even though I can't pass an A/B test of the gear.
Good video, however I do think a flat frequency response is a good thing, and that a speaker should get its characteristics and attributes through other things like components, drivers, design, and materials used not via frequency range changes. However that is one way to do it
In this day of DSPs, Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem Room Correction, YPAO, etc. It seems to me the goal of the end to end system should be flat. All of the components that can't be tuned (speakers, amps, cables) should have the goal of being as neutral as possible. Then using the processor you can tune to taste. That's why Yamaha has so many sound modes. Would you like "Klipsch sound", "Marantz", "B&W"? There ought to be DSP settings to tune the output to that - while also taking your room into account. And I fully expect that DSP processing is much more than EQ.
It drives me crazy that there are people on this flat Earth who genuinely believe that all amps sound the same. People will believe anything these days!🤨
Great video! I like to tell people: "When your beliefs are challenged, take the challenge!" I have a big huge greatroom with vaulted ceilings and hard floors. I'm looking into building a sound system that would sound good in this room. Starting with research into sound absorption lol! Great channel!
Good luck with that. I have a similar room and everything I tried sounded crappy. I finally gave up an use headphones for TV listening in that room and put my music system in a different room. I wasn't willing to do the room treatment that would have been required to make the room audio friendly.
Wouldn't say all DACs sound the same but if you listen to the top 20 DACs in ASR's tests they are all far better than human hearing, making it likely impossible to hear any difference. Obviously there are bad designs still..
The better test, by which I mean more sensitive, is I think engagement. I find with similar sounding gear there is usually one that is more engaging and that keeps me listening longer rather than getting fidgety. I almost never can identify why that one is more engaging, but the preference usually persists over time. I have experienced this with DACs, amps, preamps and vinyl vs digital. In all cases, I end up wanting to listen to one piece of gear in preference to the other even though I can't pass an A/B test of the gear.
How about this one. Big debate out there about cd transports all sounding the same. Its the dac that makes the good, or bad sound quality. What do you think Randy? Oh and I agree with everything you said. Especially the hearing bit. We are sensitive to different sounds. I know people who hate anything to do with metal. They say it's all garbled noise. The perception of sound is down to the individual. Think you do a great job. Like your openness and honesty.
I'm glad you brought up ears. Our hearing degrades yes but everyone has a physically different ear shape as well, which absolutely impacts what you hear. A "flat" speaker may enter person A's ear as flat, but not person B's ears. Likewise, a V shape speaker may be V for person A, but flat for person B. This is why measurements are *helpful* but because you can't measure your EAR the same way, you MUST apply your own subjective element to it! This is getting out there a bit (but is absolutely true) - what we hear *can* even differ by RACE (even gender)!! Yes, it's true! And this is, again due to how ear shapes and sizes differ. My father's side (who is Italian) have distinctively different ear shapes than my Mom's side, who is primarily Native American/Cherokee. It's very interesting and pretty cool (imo) but not talked about a lot. But it's fun! There's some interesting scientific studies on the subject (ear variances by race, age, gender, etc) if anyone is nerdy/geeky enough to check it out lol.
Your ears keep growing and changing shape your whole life (fact)..add that to increasing hearing loss and you know why audiophiles have to keep changing audiogear and speakers all of the time.. 🤪
imagine a possible world were the measurement people and the subjective folks realize the truth lies somewhere in the middle. keep enjoying the music! peace
Audiophiles don't even listen to music. It's a hw hobby... like cars enthusiasts who owns some vehicles, spend hundreds of thousands let every inch of it beyond perfect and special... but by no means these cars are BETTER to drive or race... they are just a hw hobby dream, the dont even drive it, just to show it off to friends or meetings... just like audiophiles, they only turn it on to show the system to somebody else, most huge hifi systems don't run more than 2h/month. And the owner always think it's still not good enough!
Well they're all tone deaf. That's also like me saying as a bass player in my younger years, that all bass amps sound the same. They're either tone deaf or missing some brain cells. Then you have the other end of the spectrum with the OCD audiophile, where they'll spend £100k on hardware because they think they can hear the transient on a cymbal a touch better.
You can't blame people having cheap Klipsch or Polk speakers for not noticing the difference between DACs or amps. If I have bad components I'll never hear details, separation, soundstage, etc. I'm not dumb, just don't have the appropriate tools.
Back when i sold some lower-mid end hifi/hime theatre , the reps used to legitimately try brainwash us into believing their amplifiers are the best for ALL the speakers we sold . The passionate salespeople sold what the customers liked , the moneymakers sold the brand that gave the best commissions.
I've been very skeptical about DAC sound quality for years now. I've never been able to tell a difference when something is decent, unless the alternative is absolutely awful. I'd love to see you put your money where your mouth is and do a blind test with different DAC's at a whole variety of price points. bonus points if you do the same with speaker amps. I know you've talked about differences before, but that doesn't eliminate the bias of knowing what you're listening to , or how much it costs.
That SMSL SU1 is the buy of the year. I have one and prefer it over my Topping E30II and Topping RD3 Dacs and its the cheapest. My 40+ year old class A Yamaha B2 amp is a beast nothing I've heard can compete with it.
Because I think that we’re approx the same age, I know that men our age suffer from hf hearing loss due to the small hairs in our ears tend to get stiff.
Ur still my favorite. I run the cheapo dh190 with a custom pair of speakers i built with Dayton reference drivers. My first speakers were sscs5 i love them. My customs are incredibly good with the dh190. You are the reason i dove back in at 40yrs old and i will be forever grateful.
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Have I got a bone to pick with you Mister! Actually I don't. I just don't want you to experience disappointment when you're expecting folks to get all worked up about your video and not enough of us actually do. We all have selective hearing, just ask our wives! Seriously though, if you're male and over 50, statistically a wife's hearing will be better than her partner's. A walk in nature with my wife proves this for me. "Can you hear that high pitch bird call" - Me: "No, what bird".
I remember how lousy a portable CD player in the 80's sounded when you outputted it RCA into a home stereo. Pretty sure it was due to the bottom of the shelf DAC inside the player. Man, do we ever need to find the middle ground more than ever, especially this weekend. Great video! Onward to finding a speaker that matches my sleep number (hearing loss profile).
Great seeing you sing Happy Birthday to your Brother. Happy days. All the best.
Great you brought this up. There is a forum where they have someone doing great measurements. I enjoy that and respect it because yes measurements does matter. But they also say stooped sh.. like all DACs sound like if they measure perfect Wich sadly means they are hearing impaired 😂. Good work Randy
enjoyed the video, one factor you forgot to mention on the speaker discussion is the listening room variable, and thank God we have speakers with different characteristics as we compensate for our hearing our listening room and most importantly what sounds best to us!
Exactly
Thank the speaker designers*
DSP too. Wait - too many Greg's on this comment :)
I think I can sum it up this way: There are some people who still believe the earth is flat.
If you sum it up that quickly then it’s no fun tho! 😊
It is flat all the way around..
I could lecture for weeks on the little details of speaker design
It is!
@@larrygaines7462I'm using this 😂
As a "high-end" manufacturer of audio components, GAS Co. was continually approached by "golden-eared audiophiles" claiming the amplifier or preamplifier they owned clearly sounded superior to any of the GAS Co. products we were producing. I would always invite these individuals into the sound room with their preferred audio component and proceed to connect it to the switching system. I would have them select a comparable GAS Co. component that I also connected to the system and then carefully adjusted both components with a precision AC voltmeter for equal levels. Before the testing commenced, I would give the audiophile the remote lanyard--a small handheld box with a toggle switch labeled A or B. I always told them that the "A" position was their piece of equipment and the "B" position was the GAS Co. equipment. After exhaustively auditioning the two components, the golden eared individual would always have a litany of subjective terms that negatively described the sound of the GAS Co. component such as: "overall dullness", "lack of transparency", "ill defined bass", "irritating midrange", "shrill highs", "lack of depth", "unstable imaging"..... ad nauseam. While the audiophile was espousing these opinions, I would bring the level of the music back up, then casually walk over to the components, switch off the power to the GAS Co. component and ask the audiophile to please toggle the lanyard switch between A and B. Unbeknownst to the audiophile, I had connected the switching system exclusively to their component only. During the test when they switched from A to B, the sound audibly dropped-out during the switching process for a few milliseconds cueing the listener that something had changed. When the audiophile realized that I had clearly demonstrated that their golden ears were not golden at all, they would quickly disconnect their component from the system, and while stomping out of the listening room, turn around, and, depending on how invested they were in believing they had golden ears, generally espouse a litany of profanities directed at me. Don't shoot the messenger! David Riddle
Smooth response is far more important than a flat response. Good video. Thx.
A flat response is smoother than smooth can ever be.
Define smooth. Flat has a definition.
@@TriAmpHiFi he cant, because smooth is flat. Any deviation from flat isnt smooth no more.
Great information. This is why people need to listen to things for themselves to see and come up with there own opinions while still taking in information that great reviewers like Randy provides.
THANK YOU FOR talking about flat frequency response. It’s like telling everyone to just have vanilla icecream. Unfortunately I eat too much icecream.
iLikeVanillaItsTheFinestOfTheFlavors
Even still, there are hundreds of different types of vanilla ice cream, many of which taste drastically different from each other
Still, it sounds a bit weird to me if a reviewer judges a speaker (or anything else in audio) while based upon his own, individual hearing loss..?
We also need some objective bases to start and compare with. Starting from there, knowing thyself (i.e. your own preferences and/or the characteristics of your hearing loss), you can find your own way.
Or use EQ? There 're things like hardware equalizers, (mini-)DSP's and software like Equalizer APO. With a Umik microphone kit you can adjust for your listening room as well.
@@eeyorebill04 But still vanilla 🙂. I prefer chocolate flavor
Well said Randy. Made me smile every time you said "Dumb"!!😂 People need to get back to thinking for themsleves and forming their own research based opinions!!
The biggest difference in sound, for me, is my mood…
It is the placebo effect that some think if it cost more it must be better. No matter what the price if it sounds good it is good.
You have gained a lot of insight and a lot of wisdom in the course of your RUclips career. It is a great thing to watch, and the better you get, the better it is for all of us.
Damn that’s a good comment 😊
Actually, about the speaker response, you’re absolutely correct. And furthermore, why would you have to have a system that the response was flat out to 30 or 40 kHz ? You’re just going to piss off your dog !😉
I believe you on DACs. I just updated my Modi3+ to Modi Multibit 2 and the diff is HUGE.
Everything sounds different. Your ears will adjust and learn to enjoy just about anything if the thing just works. Only audiophiles act as if they have perfect audio memory.
Swapping out the crossover with expensive parts to flatten the frequency response and declaring it to "be better" is 100% opinion. Many people will not like taking out the characteristics that make their speakers sound like Polks or Klipsch or KEF and their opinion is also 100% valid.
Spot on, I got back into Hifi a year or so ago. DACs were built in CD players before, changing them wasn't much of a thing. So I purchased a used Bluesound Vault and hooked it up to my NAD receiver, both quality components, initially using the DAC in the Bleusound. It sound differents using RCAs, Optic to the NAD and Coax digital to the NAD, the last may say more about the cable. The optical cable and the NAD's DAC sounds best. In any event it does matter. I'm not a trained listener, musician or any sort of musician.
I'm remembering the time when the "budget oriented audio person" heard a difference between HDMI cables. Lost respect for him that day.😢
I like flat measuring speakers. So for me its not a stupid idea. Also flat speakers are easier to equalize and play with. It's like a blank canvas.
Silly and fun intro! Thanks again for another useful video, delivered with passion! 🙃 Everyone who hasn't subscribed, do a solid for Mr. Cheap Audio Extraordinaire!
I have to say thank you so much Randy🤘🏻, this kind of videos help me a lot ✌🏻
My favorite bit of hifi nonsense is people (including Paul from PS Audio) hyping Tesla Powerwalls as improvers of sound quality because they "condition" the power. They do no such thing, matching voltage and frequency to the line input. I had Powerwalls installed for other reasons and they did absolutely nothing for sound quality (no surprise!)
On metal core inductor coils in speaker crossovers - the physics of what is happening is well known. The windings create a magnetic field, and the orientation of the field (i.e. the north/south poles of the magnetic field) is determined by the direction the signal voltage is flowing. If you use your right hand with the 4 fingers curved in the direction the voltage is flowing - your thumb is pointing toward the north pole of the magnetic field. This is called the Right Hand Rule.
Since music is an AC voltage - the direction of flow reverses 180 degrees at two times the frequency of the signal. This means the magnetic field around the inductor coil has to reverse "instantly" at twice the frequency of the music at that moment.
This matters *because* ferrous metal "holds" the magnetic field for a short period of time - it has a delay lag, and the magnetic field lingers - and this "smears" the music.
The reason that metal core inductors are used is, they don't require as many windings to achieve the desired induction value. Since the wire used to make the coil is shorter, it can be a smaller gauge - so this saves money. An air core coil requires longer piece of wire, and therefore needs to be a larger gauge to keep the same DCR.
Using an air core inductor coil has a *very* audible difference in the sound you hear; because they do not have magnetic eddy currents.
At what frequency does the field hangover audibly affect the signal?
Hysteresis
Thanks, Neil. You taught me something.
@@FrankyGee3 You're quite welcome!
@@chemania1 Right - and the thing to remember too, is that a music signal has *many* frequencies all at once, so the complexity of all the interactions within an inductor coil is exponentially greater.
Great video, Mr. Cheapaudioman, you should be nominated for a Nobel Prize in audio common sense, sadly so missing these days!
The man the legend never fails me
I think a more accurate description of some people’s position on dacs is that dacs that measure well well sound the same. I don’t think they would expect the echo dac and an smsl dac to sound the same.
Brilliant! And I’m not even British. Oooooh they gonna be mad at you! I’m here for it. Keep it up man! Good stuff.
I’m going to an audio show to check out ghselli based in part to you introducing them. Picked up a WiiM Pro+. Good stuff.
Hell I may by you a cup of Joe!
DACs don't sound the same, that's for sure, but once you reach a point of decent quality, diminishing returns hits hard!
Those $500-1000 DACs barely improve the sound compared to the $100-200 DACs.
The improvement is like 5-15% and a lot of them are sidegrades rather than upgrades.
Upgrading Amps on the other hand are 2-3 times more noticeable than DACs.
You nailed it. Being fed with all sorts of information especially from certain publications and went through that rabbit hole only to find myself disappointed and thinking if this is what an audiophile system should sound like than this hobby is not for me. Thanks to people like you, I started believing in my personal tastes and tailored my system the way that it would allow me to listen for hours and not break the bank and feel crappy about it. I am one happy camper and feel good for once being smart with my money which isn’t growing on trees.
I've never heard an audiophile say DACs, Amps, and crossovers sound the same. It's the anti-audiophile that says those
things. Audiophiles insist that everything sounds different, and the more you spend, the better your system sounds. And the speaker/amp/subwoofer/cable etc you own is crap compared to theirs.
Well I took your advise and others on the positive reviews of the Geshelli dac and ordered it. Its the J2S with the Sparkos opamp on the outputs of the rca, with AK4493 chip.
DAC's...
I've recorded & mixed through a few different pro AD/DA units- Focusrite 2i2, UA Apollo Duo, etc.
The differences aren't merely subtle.
Not one pro recording engineer in Nashville would claim they're all the same, and we've been hearing differences since the Sony PCM-F1. Converters in Alesis stuff early on (ADAT) were significantly inferior to Sony or Mitsubishi DASH multitracks (no surprise there, based on price).
Early CD players had significant phase shift by frequency, because of steep Nyquist anti-aliasing filters (the source of 'brittleness', not because it was 'digital vs. analog').
Different phones sound different, let alone getting into stand alone DAC's. I am shocked at how many do say they all sound the same.....
I guess there are a lot of people with damaged hearing???
Yah. Back when I tested a HK AVR 320 and a Yamaha HTR 5560 among others, I could hear a huge difference between them. The HK had much more powerful bass, especially when driving bookshelf speakers and no sub. HK had less hissing, too.
Thank you Randy
What up Cheap! Just checking in on my fav audiophile dude. Almost to 200K! Keep it up Randy, good stuff
Getting close to 200K. Any day now. Congrats.
Probably your best post to date Randy. Really enjoyed it.
All equipment sounds the same unless you have audiophile cables that are isolated on cable risers. 😂😂 You have made my day and weekend with this presentation, brother. BTW, my Crown certainly doesn't sound the same as my Marantz or Rotel. 😂😂😂
Still new to the whole audio thing. But now know enough to know I don't know anything. Anyway I'm happy with what I have and I just enjoy the music. :) Love your channel!
"Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment.” - Alan Parsons
" you may think i'm calling your kid ugly, you may think i'm calling you dumb." that's why I'm here....comedy gold.
Haha. This did make me smile. I am quite new to the audio side of listening as always used high end av amps etc. well now I have a streamer dac and amp etc I have noticed a lot of difference. Even down to the cables to inter connect. But again like said it’s a personal experience as we all have our own opinions and what we like and I think that’s the most important but… individual opinions. No one is right or wrong as such. It’s just what they prefer to listen to
Re speakers should have a flat frequency response? I can see or appreciate your POV but i will suggest that speakers with a flat frequency response are probably easier to eq adjust to personal taste than speakers with a more defined personality. True you could buy a speaker that matches your taste and hearing profile, but tastes often change over time. With the ability to shape eq i woud think flat response speakers would be better at modeling a different sound signature.
It's funny, and I'm sure I am not the only one that does this. First, this video is listed as end-to-end as 16:42, but to me it's well over 45 minutes due to rewinding for notes and thoughts on the subject. The second, I end up having up to 10 - 15+ explorer/chrome/etc. tabs open while watching to get more details on the details CAM is going over. I LOVE it!
Every Dac I have tried in my rig sounds different. They were all good but some just didn’t fit with my gear. synergy is key.
Randy, THANK YOU THANK YOU for doing this episode and continuing to battle the Dunning-Kruger effect. I've worked with audio for career and play for over 40 years and Ive heard the same comments all along. I tell them to get a new stylus for the turntable in their 10', 1970 Philco "entertainment center".
By now it probably also needs new power supply caps.
@@1mctous I think you missed his point.
@@jeffreylehman1159 Yes I know he's referring to a fixed mindset. However some people still love the old stereo consoles.
I would counter the flat frequency response point in saying that the goal of most well engineered speakers is to measure flat or smooth anechoically. There is tons of research out there over the years by Floyd Toole and others that proves this. This makes the speaker easy to EQ to a listener's taste after the fact in room. Buying a speaker because of its deviations from flat producing a "signature" sound just seems silly to me. You are essentially paying money for an EQ curve which could just be implemented for free via room correction or EQ software after the fact. So in summary, buy well engineered speakers with a smooth frequency response on and off axis and EQ to taste as needed.
I agree, flat obviously better for exactly the reasons you give. However, there are other speaker characteristics than frequency response that are of equal importance when choosing a speaker. Sound dispersion characteristics come to mind. Here I am thinking more of omni vs dipole vs box rather that off axis response, which admittedly differ largely in off axis response, but to such a radical degree, that it's a different conversation than I think you meant to convey.
The definition of hi fidelity is a reproduction of music to it's most accurate recording. Flat is the most acccurate. You can equalize it or change it but that's not the definition of hi fidelity.
Oh I remember reading a forum post years ago where a guy was trying to convince everyone that all amps sound the same. He wrote an entire thesis with mathematical equations, technical mumbo jumbo, the works. It was insane.
That guy is still out there....
Most of your observations are correct, however I don't think you know the backstory about "speakers should have a flat frequency". Back in the day, Dr. Floyd Toole (author of "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" and former VP at Harman Audio) was in charge of the National Research Council in Canada and he conducted a number of tests with a wide variety of listeners (non-audiophiles) to find out what people preferred when listening to a speaker. His research found that when comparing two or more speakers, listeners perceived the speaker having the flattest frequency response as subjectively sounding "better". This research helped launched the Canadian speaker industry (Paradigm and PSB are still around but back then there were at least a half dozen very succesful brands, many of which were eventually acquired by others). This is the reason why audiophiles look for speakers with a flat frequency response - the research shows they sound better (even to non-audiophiles). Certainly room size and shape, speaker placement, etc. all play an important role, but everything else being equal, flattest frequency response will sound better. FYI, Dr. Floyd Toole has a PhD in Applied Physics from the University of London and has won many awards from the Audio Engineering Society (AES) for his contributions. So looking for a loudspeaker having a flat frequency is neither stupid nor crap because it is backed by large amounts of data using many listeners.
Thanks for the video. How sound is perceived varies from person to person and room to room. Measurements by machines are helpful but we don’t all hear as well as the machine. I believe it’s important to listen to a piece of new equipment with your system in your listening room and decide what sounds good to you. That’s why I Only buy equipment from companies or retailers that let you buy and try and return for free if needed. Rock and rant on Randy!
Thanks for the video! Some of your ads have volumes so loud that I tear my headphones off because it’s faster than turning down the volume on my computer. You probably have no control over it but perhaps a warning to your viewers cause it is ridiculous and painful. Damn RUclips!
Re crossover components, they don't matter if you don't have a cross-over in your speaker, i.e. use a single driver, full-range speaker. Amp - speaker, straight line. Yes, they exist, and I love mine. Fun video. Thanks!
I have four dacs, four amps and seven sets of audiophile headphones and they all sound different. I also have several sets of non audiophile grade headphones. Go listen to some Beats by Dre, then go listen to HE 4XX and tell me thry sound the same.
Yup..go from even well regarded headphones like the Sen’s 650’s to LCDX 2021 Creators Edition..( I did ) 🥳
are you saying dacs have as much influence on your sound as a headphone or speaker?
Yes, in a digital system ..the quality of the output stage , power supply and output options ( balanced/ rca) along with input and controls ..they all add something to the quality or lack there of.
In the Year 2023 expecting people to think beyond their preconceived gullible and ignorant opinions is asking a whole lot brother. Proof is all around us. 😢
I suspect most folks here are aware of the conflation of flat frequency response and pleasing sound. Audiophile culture is historically built around pursuing empirical accuracy of devices used to record and reproduce audio - not the subjective pursuit of what sounds good. To paraphrase the late John Dunlavy: if we understand what matters, measure it accurately, then engineer accordingly, the reproduction should match what was recorded - whether that is subjectively good or bad is outside the scope of the discussion. Playing music through accurate speakers and accommodating the listeners taste in song or EQ are all different things. Most audiophiles I’ve met understand this and acknowledge that speakers don’t have to be perfectly accurate to sound good. In fact, there is no such thing as a perfectly accurate speaker or stereo system. Some of the confusion is generated by “audiophiles” who forget the distinction and overstep, to dictate what is subjectively good for others. Nobody says you have to drive yourself crazy pursuing technical accuracy in your gear in order to appreciate music; but you can if you want and there’s nothing wrong with that, either. And some of the confusion is generated by marketing hype around the word “audiophile” to the point that the term is now effectively meaningless. But hey, if it generates clicks to malign the label, I guess the term still has some value. 🙂
EQ's properly tuned can make any sound system sound better.
As far as amps go, I am lucky enough to own a McIntosh MC300. The difference between it and the power section in my Pioneer Elite receiver is staggering. Honestly, with any other amp I've tried as well. The MC300 also weighs nearly 100lbs. I am currently using an Adcom, and it sounds like Walmart grade comparatively.
Try the Fosi V3. Many reviewers praise it and it pays itself back by saving on your electricity bill.
Kidding😅
McIntosh 100% end game. I live an hour away from the McIntosh factory and that is as close as I will be to owning one. Bummer. Enjoy yours!
@@welderfixer it is the end game, but I'm not using it because I'm going to sell it. I had to ween myself off. It's still depressing. I trade some work for a rich client for it. I used to have a preamp and cd player too. Sounded like the total endgame with my garage sale B&W DM620s.
@@MikePowersTSIG I wish I was in the financial position to buy the MC300 from you. I am sure I would enjoy it for a very long time. Currently, The wonderful NAD 214 amp that was given to me is such a joy to listen to everything through. I haven't had any of the speakers I've played on the NAD sound bad. I think the amp is the key item in a system. I wish you all the very best, Kevin
Overkill amplifiers do have certain advantages, one being a power supply section that has the reserve energy to push momentary transients out properly.
In Korea I walked into my local HIFI store looking for a 3.5 jack cable for my focal headphones. The store told me they didn't carry Focal products, and told me to look elsewhere. I said "No no, I am fine with any 3.5 cable." and half the people in room stopped and stared at me. The staff looked shocked and slightly panicked. One other customer who overheard me actually glared in my direction. I then realized I had offended them, even when they didn't carry Focal products and could make a sale to me today. I insisted they do though, and they begrudgingly went into the back and got a cable from Final audio that they had, all the while complaining to me that it won't sound the same. It did sound different! Because the original was broken.
Cool let’s see if this becomes another one of your top vids!!! Almost to 200k too, let’s go!!!🎉❤
I like the ‘tough love’ attitude here too, good stuff as always Randy
You mad bruh? 😉
I thought I wasn’t mad but ur right, now I’m punching holes in the wall, thanks wife!😂
I wanted to like Klipsch and owned a few but so far I’ve only liked their most expensive Heritage designs. Which I can’t afford.
A flat frequency sweep is actually important for a 5.1/7.1 or above system for home audio (movies). For 2/2.1 music,, I agree, it's a personal choice and also depends on the music you listen to also.
I bought a 200on huge tube down firing SVS subwoofer roughly 20 years ago . It had way more controls than what I was used to. It also had 3 tubes to pull in air. It came with foam so you had the option of filling 2 of them and get down to 16hz, which 8s bass you just feel in your chest, so good for movies, not music but thought I had it close enough but was roughly 10db above at roughly 25 to 30jz. Watched a movie, explosion, SVS was fine and handled with zero issues but I honestly thought something had actually exploded even though I was watching ammo or, it was LOUD. Didn't bother the SVS though but I do think it's more important for movies although most systems have some auto setup function and come with a mic for calibration now.
Seriously, if I thought all DACs sound the same, why on earth would I buy an expensive one like the gesheli labs?
One problem I found years ago was going from dealer to dealer trying to compare. The other is commission sales dudes that equate dollars to quality.
I do know of one dealer who doesn't pay commissions .
Right Randy..
it’s all a matter of degree.. in any given system, there’s going to be a quality level whereby going any further in “quality” with a particular component of the system will not yield any better sonic result, so for any given system, the cables, dacs, amps, or whatever, when changed, can alter the perception and viewpoint regarding the original component and its replacement.
Edit: Once that happens, the actual weakest link would need to be identified to reach for the next level of sonic bliss (probably speakers lol).
Thanks for your content! Regarding speaker cables I think the number one difference people hear between two reasonable quality cables is first in their head and second maybe simply oxidation causing resistance at the connectors being cleaned when removing the old cables and putting the new ones in. Other claims about speaker cables need to eliminate all the other possible variations including the placebo effect that our brains introduce. Show me some legitimate double blind studies of speaker cables and how people with the very best hearing can accurately identify the better cables each time. No shade on anybody who wants to pay as much as they want for their audio jewelry but justifying it by saying that they can hear amazing difference needs to be demonstrated in ways that can eliminate the individual bias and expectations.
Lastly, because someone takes the middle ground between personal anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence does not make them find the truth! Truth that comports with reality must be reliably and repeatedly demonstrated under strict controls.
Isn't your certainty bypassing the science?
Moved my Paradigm Monitor 7s to the family room and brought the Yamaha NS 6390s into my office. Finally got to experience listening fatigue after about 30 minutes with the Yamahas. Didn’t think that was a real thing before.
Now running Emotiva B 1+s after your Tracy Chapman review and can listen for hours and hours.
P.S. I prefer German chocolate cake.
Love your Metallica coffee mug, got me an Iron Maiden one. \m/
I'm DAC curious. Is that 80 dollar DAC better than the internal DAC in my $600 Onkyo AVR?
Thanks Randy...
Great question. I have asked this before. My old Onkyo featured a 24/192 dac onboard.
What!? That David Lee Roth concert in 1987 messed up my ears? What?
Agree with every word.
There are some utter cobblers hifi geeks believe. The most hilarious are cables used for digital transmission such as HDMI or optical etc. It literally makes zero difference how much you spend because a digital signal is a digital signal. If the 1s and 0s get from one end of the cable to the other that's it. Nothing more to give. Even the engineers at the regulatory authority who issue the standards think it's hilarious when people spend hundreds on digital cables thinking it will make a difference to the sound.
Thanks! Good video
Isn't a flat speaker eazyer to manipulate with an EQ
I am 62 years old and I must have some hearing loss. I can’t tell the difference between the few DACS I have tried. That is probably down to my ears and not the equipment. I am sure can hear a difference 😊
Others
I'm 63 and I can't either. But, I find with similar sounding gear there is usually one that is more engaging and that keeps me listening longer rather than getting fidgety. I almost never can identify why that one is more engaging, but the preference usually persists over time. I have experienced this with DACs, amps, preamps and vinyl vs digital. In all cases, I end up wanting to listen to one piece of gear in preference to the other even though I can't pass an A/B test of the gear.
Occasionally my bass is bloated!
Good video, however I do think a flat frequency response is a good thing, and that a speaker should get its characteristics and attributes through other things like components, drivers, design, and materials used not via frequency range changes. However that is one way to do it
In this day of DSPs, Audyssey, Dirac, Anthem Room Correction, YPAO, etc. It seems to me the goal of the end to end system should be flat. All of the components that can't be tuned (speakers, amps, cables) should have the goal of being as neutral as possible. Then using the processor you can tune to taste. That's why Yamaha has so many sound modes. Would you like "Klipsch sound", "Marantz", "B&W"? There ought to be DSP settings to tune the output to that - while also taking your room into account. And I fully expect that DSP processing is much more than EQ.
It drives me crazy that there are people on this flat Earth who genuinely believe that all amps sound the same. People will believe anything these days!🤨
Great video! I like to tell people: "When your beliefs are challenged, take the challenge!" I have a big huge greatroom with vaulted ceilings and hard floors. I'm looking into building a sound system that would sound good in this room. Starting with research into sound absorption lol! Great channel!
Good luck with that. I have a similar room and everything I tried sounded crappy. I finally gave up an use headphones for TV listening in that room and put my music system in a different room. I wasn't willing to do the room treatment that would have been required to make the room audio friendly.
Funny how no Audiophile thinks that way at all.
Wouldn't say all DACs sound the same but if you listen to the top 20 DACs in ASR's tests they are all far better than human hearing, making it likely impossible to hear any difference. Obviously there are bad designs still..
The better test, by which I mean more sensitive, is I think engagement. I find with similar sounding gear there is usually one that is more engaging and that keeps me listening longer rather than getting fidgety. I almost never can identify why that one is more engaging, but the preference usually persists over time. I have experienced this with DACs, amps, preamps and vinyl vs digital. In all cases, I end up wanting to listen to one piece of gear in preference to the other even though I can't pass an A/B test of the gear.
Beyond human hearing that cannot have a sound. Rather they lack coloration.
Nice thanks
I do not know how anyone could think all Dacs sound the same! That is like thinking all speakers sound the same! Wow!
So you're telling me that it's worth upgrading from the Sith Audio "Black" flashlight you showed us to the "Red" for the additional clarity?
difference is like night and when you turn it on at night... night and day
How about this one. Big debate out there about cd transports all sounding the same. Its the dac that makes the good, or bad sound quality. What do you think Randy? Oh and I agree with everything you said. Especially the hearing bit. We are sensitive to different sounds. I know people who hate anything to do with metal. They say it's all garbled noise. The perception of sound is down to the individual. Think you do a great job. Like your openness and honesty.
Love my McIntosh amp! Does it really sound better than my emotivas? Not really. It makes me happy regardless.
I remember reading a little book when I was a teenager entitled 'How to Lie with statistics' I recommend it.
Preach 👏
Preposterous!!😂
That’s the 21st cent for ya!!😉
I'm glad you brought up ears. Our hearing degrades yes but everyone has a physically different ear shape as well, which absolutely impacts what you hear. A "flat" speaker may enter person A's ear as flat, but not person B's ears. Likewise, a V shape speaker may be V for person A, but flat for person B. This is why measurements are *helpful* but because you can't measure your EAR the same way, you MUST apply your own subjective element to it! This is getting out there a bit (but is absolutely true) - what we hear *can* even differ by RACE (even gender)!! Yes, it's true! And this is, again due to how ear shapes and sizes differ. My father's side (who is Italian) have distinctively different ear shapes than my Mom's side, who is primarily Native American/Cherokee. It's very interesting and pretty cool (imo) but not talked about a lot. But it's fun! There's some interesting scientific studies on the subject (ear variances by race, age, gender, etc) if anyone is nerdy/geeky enough to check it out lol.
Your ears keep growing and changing shape your whole life (fact)..add that to increasing hearing loss and you know why audiophiles have to keep changing audiogear and speakers all of the time.. 🤪
So close to 200K !!!
imagine a possible world were the measurement people and the subjective folks realize the truth lies somewhere in the middle. keep enjoying the music! peace
Audiophiles don't even listen to music. It's a hw hobby... like cars enthusiasts who owns some vehicles, spend hundreds of thousands let every inch of it beyond perfect and special... but by no means these cars are BETTER to drive or race... they are just a hw hobby dream, the dont even drive it, just to show it off to friends or meetings... just like audiophiles, they only turn it on to show the system to somebody else, most huge hifi systems don't run more than 2h/month. And the owner always think it's still not good enough!
Well they're all tone deaf. That's also like me saying as a bass player in my younger years, that all bass amps sound the same.
They're either tone deaf or missing some brain cells.
Then you have the other end of the spectrum with the OCD audiophile, where they'll spend £100k on hardware because they think they can hear the transient on a cymbal a touch better.
You can't blame people having cheap Klipsch or Polk speakers for not noticing the difference between DACs or amps. If I have bad components I'll never hear details, separation, soundstage, etc. I'm not dumb, just don't have the appropriate tools.
the commenters never mentioned their speaker choices so I'm not sure that your comment makes much sense
Back when i sold some lower-mid end hifi/hime theatre , the reps used to legitimately try brainwash us into believing their amplifiers are the best for ALL the speakers we sold . The passionate salespeople sold what the customers liked , the moneymakers sold the brand that gave the best commissions.
I've been very skeptical about DAC sound quality for years now. I've never been able to tell a difference when something is decent, unless the alternative is absolutely awful.
I'd love to see you put your money where your mouth is and do a blind test with different DAC's at a whole variety of price points. bonus points if you do the same with speaker amps.
I know you've talked about differences before, but that doesn't eliminate the bias of knowing what you're listening to , or how much it costs.
That SMSL SU1 is the buy of the year. I have one and prefer it over my Topping E30II and Topping RD3 Dacs and its the cheapest. My 40+ year old class A Yamaha B2 amp is a beast nothing I've heard can compete with it.
i love a thicc deep speaker sound myself
Because I think that we’re approx the same age, I know that men our age suffer from hf hearing loss due to the small hairs in our ears tend to get stiff.
Well put. I have tinnitus, I can’t hear your perfect testing frequency response speaker. I need certain frequencies boosted and some cut.
There are ways to do that.
Ur still my favorite. I run the cheapo dh190 with a custom pair of speakers i built with Dayton reference drivers. My first speakers were sscs5 i love them. My customs are incredibly good with the dh190. You are the reason i dove back in at 40yrs old and i will be forever grateful.