I fell in love with Chopin last summer because I kept listening to his Nocturne in F minor, op. 55 no. 1 and Nocturne, op. 9 no. 1, which I am currently learning. So I went to his Wikipedia page to learn more about him and discovered that he got the nocturne idea from John Field so I went over and listened to his nocturnes and fell in love with them as well.
And let’s not forget about great feature of beautiful Field’s nocturnes: a beginner can play them and not sound ridiculous. I do not remember how I learned about Field and his nocturnes, but some time in 1980s I got myself the whole set printed edition and with some effort I learned to play some. E-flat major #1 is of course a jewel. At the same time, Chopin’s nocturnes are way beyond my abilities. So, thank you John for giving me a chance to enjoy beautiful music even with my limited technical skills.
"...Chopin’s nocturnes are way beyond my abilities." Surely not the Op9No2? If you can play several of Field's, you could surely also manage 9/2? Fred (I'd be hard-pressed to do most of FC's, but I do manage the 9/2. I also love the Field Bb, that makes a brief appearance in this video. That said, I'm still 100% with your main point.)
Actually I happened to read yesterday a letter where John Field is remembered by Chopin. Friederike Mueller to her aunts, 05.04.1840, the discussion was about aging of some of the pianists Chopin used to love once: "[Chopin to Mueller]: 'Field's art has also aged, and how magnificently Field once played! I was deeply saddened when I heard him for the last time in Paris. Oh, that was no longer his playing at all. Admittedly, there was still that pearly lightness in his runs, which no one before Field had, and which no one after him will ever achieve, but the spirit of his playing was gone.'"
As an Irish person who follows your channel and your other one, I love when I see YT''er's feature his music, also I've seen and met John O' Conor many times. I'm also irishpianoman on socials! N.B. 9:55 "Go to the Devil and Shake Yourself" is a traditional Irish jig that John Field arranged the tune as a rondo for piano in 1797. This popularized the melody and cemented its association with Field, even though he didn't actually compose the original tune.
On adding ornamentation, Liszt in his edition of Field's nocturnes has a long interesting preface. He heard Field playing, and he describes how Field ornamented his work, "... he deviated from the first plan of the piece as it was present in his imagination, and invented new groups in an uninterrupted succession, which he twined around his melodies like garlands ...". So perhaps the simplicity of his nocturnes is also an invitation to embellish as the feeling takes you.
Vladimir Horowitz is my favorite Chopin performer. It was one of his albums that first introduced me to Chopin, so some of his additional ornamentations and alternate notes are the "original" to me. I later learned that Horowitz was often criticized for doing things like that, though I've always had the mindset that Chopin himself would likely have appreciated it. Happy to learn that there may be truth to that sentiment ❤️
I agree. There's some so convincing about Horowitz's Chopin interpretations that make the emotions seem more real and less affected. I always appreciate the chances he takes.
Chopin's superior musical sense especially with regard to harmony. Compare the piano concertos in which Chopin was influenced by Field. The latter although with nice melodies and figuration, frequently ramble; they don't have the tight structure of Chopin's PC's.
Thank you for this great and informative interview about such a criminally underrated composer! As a young Irish-American piano student, I learned John Field’s Nocturne in B-flat Major. While I’ve always loved this piece, I didn’t fully appreciate Field’s historical significance. I’m going to listen to John O’Conor’s recordings of these nocturnes right away! P.S. My grandma was an O’Connor, too! 🇮🇪
I’m fascinated by the little psychological but practical games disciplined people will play with themselves to push them forward, as in the story here about the bowl of marbles from one side to another on the piano. Love it
I think the reality is that one doesn't change late Beethoven, but early Beethoven is still part of a tradition of ornamentation. I think the most amazing experiments with this are composer Frederic Rzewski's performances of the Appassionata and Hammerklavier with improvised ornaments and cadenzas. He makes a strong argument.
This videos so valuable! thanks a lot!! I would really like to know what you think about Czerny's nocturnes. I find them really beautiful and exciting, yet very few people plays them or talks about them.
As a composer myself, I often play things differently than how I wrote it down originally. The reason is because a score is a set of ideas on a page. If you can articulate the same idea in a different way, then you can do it, as long as you get the idea. This is I guess the whole controversy around “what is the idea of (so and so) part of this (say) nocturne”?
I saw a video of John hosting young pianists in a small Italian village for a piano camp, and was impressed with his teaching skills. Is he still doing that, or was it a guest appearance?
KevinVolans!SirHamiltonHarty made many recordings and he was knighted.So who (what Irish composer)has done exceptional, masterful compositions-music in Ireland since 1850. I will research this and what important musicians visited. Beckett was Irish. Shaw?VictorHerbert!Kinda forgotten.ErnestMoeran is a name ive seen before
Chopins Nocturnes start with the 2 of opus 9 when the young genius was barely 20 years of age. The B minor is already genuinly Chopin style in many ways though the left hand is more simple than in many of the later ones. The e-flat consciously imitates Fields Nocturne in the same key and given the popularity of Field any contemporary player knew that. 20 year old chopin was overflowing with melodies and ideas so the only reason for his "copying" is IMO that he wants to demonstrate: I can do whatever Field does - and indeed much better. That said Fields early romantic pieces have a lot of ^^charm and can still be attractive to intermediate level players.
Claiming that John Field's nocturnes are a "pale imitation of Chopin's" is a bit like comparing a Mozart piano sonata with a Beethoven piano sonata and concluding that Mozart's music lacks innovation and emotional depth. One composer created amazing nuance and beauty within the harmonic conventions of their time. The other, broke away from those conventions to explore new sounds and ideas that were often highly upsetting to their contemporaries. I'm not saying that we should undersell the creative genius of Beethoven or Chopin, but it is possible to acknowledge the brilliance of their innovation, while still appreciating the beauty and artistry in the music that inspired them.
Interesting. You learn something new every day. But people still improvise on classical today, especially on Beethoven, just not in academic circles. Moonlight Sonata ruclips.net/user/shortsakC1Q2JfBGc Für Elise (simultaneously mashed-up with La Campanella) ruclips.net/user/shortsXL62KqbW6kA I'd rather listen to some new interesting ideas like that than the same rehashed performances. These were audience requests and she even learned a song she didn't know by ear in less than a minute then improvised the rest ruclips.net/user/shortsgK8ob4yVm5E
Field is always referred to as "Irish," but the family left when he was a child. His life was spent in Russia. So isn't he at least Irish-Russian? But they probably all spoke French...ah, well.
Briiliant but the trope of British always trying to put down the Irish isn't true -Im half Yorkshire/half Irish and have lived in Ireland for 20yrs and id argue there's an arrogance amongst certain quarters here post "Celic Tiger" -many my friends growing up had deep respect and liking for much in Irish culture and John Field would be regarded as anglo-irish by many here in Ireland...Perhaps John meant the comment was typical of a certain strata in British life of the time and now but it certainly doesn't reflect many peoples thinking in Britain. All that said -great interview
I'm half Irish/English (Yorkshire) too and completely agree. I've never met anyone over here who feels any antipathy towards the Irish people or culture, but plenty who love and appreciate both. I thinks it was an unfair generalisation which doesn't reflect modern British attitudes:-)
I like Field's nocturnes. As Rimbaud said of Baudelaire's poetry - it was great but 'un peu trop artiste' - just like Chopin's nocturnes in comparison...
I like this John O'Conor - I hereby dedicate this playlist of 6 rather dreadful sonatinas to him (nevertheless, my line goes back to Beethoven through my teacher's teacher's teacher Nikolaev who also had Tchaikovsky in his line as well as Beethoven) - ruclips.net/p/PLYUhuuvIrJm3JdtYJcMuKOcmlrJ0j13xO
Ben Chopin nocturne no 2 and Field"s that nocturn gives us almost totaly different effect thay are different in characteristic. Their 2 bars can be similar but Chopin"s nocturn has a liric and profound melody longer and more distinguishable melody but Field's melodies are pale...dont have a definit profound characters. You are teying to find an imitation by Chopin but I see that by doing so, you are loosing a bigger picture I am afraid...
I agree with you, but this video suggests we honor what Field did on his own terms. Of course Chopin’s Nocturnes are peerless miracles - this is the Chopin podcast after all, so we’re well aware! But we wouldn’t have them without Field, and it’s a worthwhile challenge to forget about Chopin when appreciating what Field did before him.
@@benlawdy I appretiate Field totally. I love his nocturns very peacefull. I appretiate your videos in many ways Ben I enjoy watching them. But dont agree that if two or three bas are simmilar the later one is imitation. No..I dont agree with Being influenced is different thing than imitating ir copying..Chopin does not even play the same them twice in the same way..if the them repeats you need to play it in a different light..He does not imitate( or repeat) himself😊
@@bluepearl4806 oh we just have a misunderstanding then - the thumbnail is referring to a quote by a foolish music writer John O’Conor quotes in this video, where he says *Field* is an imitation of *Chopin.* of course that’s absurd, since Chopin came after. But we also don’t think Chopin is imitating Field, only that there was influence. Actually, one’s appreciation for Chopin deepens not by comparing him to Field and saying he went beyond Field, or whatever, but by treating them separately and appreciating them on their own terms. In any case, I think we agree.
I have listened to a lot of Field. I just find it very dull and lacking in imagination. Like musical cardboard. His unique genre became popular for a few years. Chopin for generations.
I fell in love with Chopin last summer because I kept listening to his Nocturne in F minor, op. 55 no. 1 and Nocturne, op. 9 no. 1, which I am currently learning. So I went to his Wikipedia page to learn more about him and discovered that he got the nocturne idea from John Field so I went over and listened to his nocturnes and fell in love with them as well.
And let’s not forget about great feature of beautiful Field’s nocturnes: a beginner can play them and not sound ridiculous.
I do not remember how I learned about Field and his nocturnes, but some time in 1980s I got myself the whole set printed edition and with some effort I learned to play some. E-flat major #1 is of course a jewel. At the same time, Chopin’s nocturnes are way beyond my abilities. So, thank you John for giving me a chance to enjoy beautiful music even with my limited technical skills.
"...Chopin’s nocturnes are way beyond my abilities."
Surely not the Op9No2? If you can play several of Field's, you could surely also manage 9/2?
Fred
(I'd be hard-pressed to do most of FC's, but I do manage the 9/2. I also love the Field Bb, that makes a brief appearance in this video.
That said, I'm still 100% with your main point.)
Actually I happened to read yesterday a letter where John Field is remembered by Chopin. Friederike Mueller to her aunts, 05.04.1840, the discussion was about aging of some of the pianists Chopin used to love once:
"[Chopin to Mueller]: 'Field's art has also aged, and how magnificently Field once played! I was deeply saddened when I heard him for the last time in Paris. Oh, that was no longer his playing at all. Admittedly, there was still that pearly lightness in his runs, which no one before Field had, and which no one after him will ever achieve, but the spirit of his playing was gone.'"
Love your guest John O’Conor!
Finally someone else who rates Field’s Nocturnes❤
Happy to know about John Field, the Irish composer, who might have influenced Chopin. Thanks for the podcast!!❤
As an Irish person who follows your channel and your other one, I love when I see YT''er's feature his music, also I've seen and met John O' Conor many times. I'm also irishpianoman on socials!
N.B. 9:55 "Go to the Devil and Shake Yourself" is a traditional Irish jig that John Field arranged the tune as a rondo for piano in 1797. This popularized the melody and cemented its association with Field, even though he didn't actually compose the original tune.
On adding ornamentation, Liszt in his edition of Field's nocturnes has a long interesting preface. He heard Field playing, and he describes how Field ornamented his work, "... he deviated from the first plan of the piece as it was present in his imagination, and invented new groups in an uninterrupted succession, which he twined around his melodies like garlands ...". So perhaps the simplicity of his nocturnes is also an invitation to embellish as the feeling takes you.
You're a Wezzy as we said in Bridlington! 🤣 Good to talk my fellow Chopin admirer
Thank You!
This was a beautiful interview. Thank you.
Vladimir Horowitz is my favorite Chopin performer. It was one of his albums that first introduced me to Chopin, so some of his additional ornamentations and alternate notes are the "original" to me. I later learned that Horowitz was often criticized for doing things like that, though I've always had the mindset that Chopin himself would likely have appreciated it. Happy to learn that there may be truth to that sentiment ❤️
I agree. There's some so convincing about Horowitz's Chopin interpretations that make the emotions seem more real and less affected. I always appreciate the chances he takes.
Chopin added something special to nocturnes
Chopin's superior musical sense especially with regard to harmony. Compare the piano concertos in which Chopin was influenced by Field. The latter although with nice melodies and figuration, frequently ramble; they don't have the tight structure of Chopin's PC's.
Thank you for this great and informative interview about such a criminally underrated composer! As a young Irish-American piano student, I learned John Field’s Nocturne in B-flat Major. While I’ve always loved this piece, I didn’t fully appreciate Field’s historical significance. I’m going to listen to John O’Conor’s recordings of these nocturnes right away!
P.S. My grandma was an O’Connor, too! 🇮🇪
I’m fascinated by the little psychological but practical games disciplined people will play with themselves to push them forward, as in the story here about the bowl of marbles from one side to another on the piano. Love it
That caught my interest and attention too!That was unique
I think the reality is that one doesn't change late Beethoven, but early Beethoven is still part of a tradition of ornamentation. I think the most amazing experiments with this are composer Frederic Rzewski's performances of the Appassionata and Hammerklavier with improvised ornaments and cadenzas. He makes a strong argument.
John field has some fun piano sonatas. I must also mention his Piano Concdrto No.1
On improvisation, how does a musician resist the urge to do it? It’s mind boggling. It’s like breathing air.
Because our training as classical pianists is suffocating ;)
Some very good Field compositions
This videos so valuable! thanks a lot!!
I would really like to know what you think about Czerny's nocturnes. I find them really beautiful and exciting, yet very few people plays them or talks about them.
Interesting stuff. Thanks.
My family has very very very distant relation to John Field I believe he was a distant cousin or uncle
Hey that’s so cool I can’t believe I met a John Field’s descendant (kind of) in a youtube comment section.
As a composer myself, I often play things differently than how I wrote it down originally. The reason is because a score is a set of ideas on a page. If you can articulate the same idea in a different way, then you can do it, as long as you get the idea. This is I guess the whole controversy around “what is the idea of (so and so) part of this (say) nocturne”?
One does not imitate someone who comes after them.
The original "Chopin" sound.
All right. I'm havin' a Ben(ge) Laude afternoon. Gotta go back and catch up!
I saw a video of John hosting young pianists in a small Italian village for a piano camp, and was impressed with his teaching skills. Is he still doing that, or was it a guest appearance?
KevinVolans!SirHamiltonHarty made many recordings and he was knighted.So who (what Irish composer)has done exceptional, masterful compositions-music in Ireland since 1850. I will research this and what important musicians visited. Beckett was Irish. Shaw?VictorHerbert!Kinda forgotten.ErnestMoeran is a name ive seen before
Chopins Nocturnes start with the 2 of opus 9 when the young genius was barely 20 years of age. The B minor is already genuinly Chopin style in many ways though the left hand is more simple than in many of the later ones. The e-flat consciously imitates Fields Nocturne in the same key and given the popularity of Field any contemporary player knew that. 20 year old chopin was overflowing with melodies and ideas so the only reason for his "copying" is IMO that he wants to demonstrate: I can do whatever Field does - and indeed much better. That said Fields early romantic pieces have a lot of ^^charm and can still be attractive to intermediate level players.
Claiming that John Field's nocturnes are a "pale imitation of Chopin's" is a bit like comparing a Mozart piano sonata with a Beethoven piano sonata and concluding that Mozart's music lacks innovation and emotional depth. One composer created amazing nuance and beauty within the harmonic conventions of their time. The other, broke away from those conventions to explore new sounds and ideas that were often highly upsetting to their contemporaries.
I'm not saying that we should undersell the creative genius of Beethoven or Chopin, but it is possible to acknowledge the brilliance of their innovation, while still appreciating the beauty and artistry in the music that inspired them.
Interesting. You learn something new every day.
But people still improvise on classical today, especially on Beethoven, just not in academic circles. Moonlight Sonata ruclips.net/user/shortsakC1Q2JfBGc Für Elise (simultaneously mashed-up with La Campanella) ruclips.net/user/shortsXL62KqbW6kA I'd rather listen to some new interesting ideas like that than the same rehashed performances. These were audience requests and she even learned a song she didn't know by ear in less than a minute then improvised the rest ruclips.net/user/shortsgK8ob4yVm5E
How can you imitate music that lies in thr future?
Field came before Chopin, so he was quite original?
Field is always referred to as "Irish," but the family left when he was a child. His life was spent in Russia. So isn't he at least Irish-Russian? But they probably all spoke French...ah, well.
Briiliant but the trope of British always trying to put down the Irish isn't true -Im half Yorkshire/half Irish and have lived in Ireland for 20yrs and id argue there's an arrogance amongst certain quarters here post "Celic Tiger" -many my friends growing up had deep respect and liking for much in Irish culture and John Field would be regarded as anglo-irish by many here in Ireland...Perhaps John meant the comment was typical of a certain strata in British life of the time and now but it certainly doesn't reflect many peoples thinking in Britain. All that said -great interview
I'm half Irish/English (Yorkshire) too and completely agree. I've never met anyone over here who feels any antipathy towards the Irish people or culture, but plenty who love and appreciate both. I thinks it was an unfair generalisation which doesn't reflect modern British attitudes:-)
I'm half Irish half Cypriot, but born and bred in the West Riding... Can I join your Chopin appreciation society?
I like Field's nocturnes. As Rimbaud said of Baudelaire's poetry - it was great but 'un peu trop artiste' - just like Chopin's nocturnes in comparison...
I like this John O'Conor - I hereby dedicate this playlist of 6 rather dreadful sonatinas to him (nevertheless, my line goes back to Beethoven through my teacher's teacher's teacher Nikolaev who also had Tchaikovsky in his line as well as Beethoven) - ruclips.net/p/PLYUhuuvIrJm3JdtYJcMuKOcmlrJ0j13xO
Ben, what happened to your amazingly hilarious pageant video? I was looking for it to cheer a friend up, but I can't find it anywhere!
Oh wow, I didn't even notice!
ruclips.net/video/MejcxHoo-Ic/видео.html
Got some flak and it was reaching Sara directly, so after talking with her we decided to make it unlisted.
@@benlawdy People can't take jokes anymore apparently. Sorry you and Sara had to deal with that!
@@benlawdy That's more than fair enough - hope she and you are doing okay ✨ thanks so much for sharing the link :)
@@benlawdy Sorry you had you and Sara had to deal with that - I agree with the other OP, some people can't take jokes unfortunately
Ben Chopin nocturne no 2 and Field"s that nocturn gives us almost totaly different effect thay are different in characteristic. Their 2 bars can be similar but Chopin"s nocturn has a liric and profound melody longer and more distinguishable melody but Field's melodies are pale...dont have a definit profound characters. You are teying to find an imitation by Chopin but I see that by doing so, you are loosing a bigger picture I am afraid...
I agree with you, but this video suggests we honor what Field did on his own terms. Of course Chopin’s Nocturnes are peerless miracles - this is the Chopin podcast after all, so we’re well aware! But we wouldn’t have them without Field, and it’s a worthwhile challenge to forget about Chopin when appreciating what Field did before him.
@@benlawdy I appretiate Field totally. I love his nocturns very peacefull. I appretiate your videos in many ways Ben I enjoy watching them. But dont agree that if two or three bas are simmilar the later one is imitation. No..I dont agree with Being influenced is different thing than imitating ir copying..Chopin does not even play the same them twice in the same way..if the them repeats you need to play it in a different light..He does not imitate( or repeat) himself😊
* losing.
@@bluepearl4806 oh we just have a misunderstanding then - the thumbnail is referring to a quote by a foolish music writer John O’Conor quotes in this video, where he says *Field* is an imitation of *Chopin.* of course that’s absurd, since Chopin came after. But we also don’t think Chopin is imitating Field, only that there was influence. Actually, one’s appreciation for Chopin deepens not by comparing him to Field and saying he went beyond Field, or whatever, but by treating them separately and appreciating them on their own terms. In any case, I think we agree.
@@benlawdy Yes we agree then dear Ben thank you😊🍀
I have listened to a lot of Field. I just find it very dull and lacking in imagination. Like musical cardboard. His unique genre became popular for a few years. Chopin for generations.
It’s interesting because that is how I would describe most of Chopins works 🫠