@neshomk his depiction of the character of Liszt. He was extremely generous and larger than life, very religious and not a womaniser. In think it was his generosity of spirit.
I'm starting a petition to have Alan Walker narrate everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. Audiobooks? Alan Walker. Documentaries? Alan Walker. Need a male voice actor? Alan Wlaker. Need a female voice actor? Alan Walker. I think the world would be significantly better, if we just heard Alan Walker's voice on a daily basis.
6:33 Walker: "the ballades are things in themselves requiring no verbal explanation" Well said! Why some people need a picture to imagine is beyond me.
@@dwdei8815I agree. Walker is approaching his subject with a scholar’s eye. But who cares why people love a piece of music. Isn’t that the point of not insisting on programmatic meaning - that interpretation is in the ear and mind of the performer and individual listener? And anyway, Walker does expound at some length on the likely inspiration for no. 4…
A great pleasure to hear Alan Walker again. All us pianists know and love his books on Liszt & Chopin. Exciting news about a 2nd edition of gus Chopin biography. Such amazing details surrounding the 4th ballade given to us as clearly and elegantly as he writes. Very grateful to have these recorded commentaries online to be preserved.
Arthur Rubinstein at the end , with Schumann help, reminded me why I love Chopin so much. His touch is un matched. Great and very interesting podcast. Found out a lot of things I didn’t know. Made me want to play that masterpiece again . Thanks
Wonderful chat with Alan Walker. After listening to the podcast, I decided to listen to some of the performances of the 4th Ballade that are on RUclips. That was a mistake! For the last month or so, the fourth Ballade has earwormed its way into my brain and I hear it all the time! I don’t just mean the simple melodic themes, I mean the whole darn thing in all its magnificent and infinitely complex glory! I have never found a way to “clear” an earworm. I just have to wait until it plays itself out.👂🏻🐛
Scunthorpe boy makes good. Alan Walker is the greatest musicologist, wonderful knowledge and insights. What a blessing he has lived so long. May he remain with us for a long time. I read his Chopin biography and will buy the second edition for its new gems.
I would highly recommend all the viewers of this video to check out Richter's interpretation. To me it perfectly encapsulates what this magnificent piece meant and added more.
After reading around 10 renowned books on Chopins life/musicianship/teachership (from all aspects) and letters not only of his own, but letters and diaries of his students and friends, ignorant me thought I could not learn much more from another biography which, above all, isn't available in my mother tongue (German). So I skipped Alan Walker's Chopin book until now. Thanks to this Podcast I changed my mind. I was instantly impressed by this razor-sharp, classy gentlemen in those interviews, and persuaded that I would probably learn more from his Chopin biography than I learned from any other. So I bought it and are reading it right now. I did not regret it, the details are overwhelming!
That revelation about Chopin's take on his own music is so ravishing! I wouldn't have expected another piece to surpass the Polonaise but as I've learned more about music I'm less surprised. The fourth Ballade is, of course, in a profound way, a piece which speaks for itself.. now, I really want to play it!
I read a few pages of George Sand's letters in their original french (I'm a native french speaker). It is written in the romantic style prevalent at the time. Events are over dramatised; a walk in the rain is described as a saga for survival. It seems that the goal was to elicit an emotional response rather than to be an impartial historical record.
Fascinating, as Dr. Alan Walker always is. Since he is the foremost expert on Liszt, in the future you should invite him to discuss some of Liszt's most important works such as his Sonata in B minor and his Ballade no. 2.
What a jewel of a video, informative, interesting, vivid and stimulating. Alan Walker is an inexhaustible source of inspiration and I hope that we will see and hear more of him in the next videos.
I always felt it like the four seasons. We begin with falling autumn leaves, the last ones. Then begins a subtle rain in winter that derives in a storm. Spring is the 2nd theme, the lovely one, the one that makes you cry when it arrives right after that funny run at the end of "winter". After the spring choral, we have summer, sunny, dancing music, almost latin-like, with butterflies. This merges with autumn again, but a distintive one, with minor chords, nostalgic. Then winter again, but is weird too, like, we don't know for a while where we are. Then, after another storm, spring again, now for the climax, one of the most beautiful moments in the history of music, you know what we are talking about. The only break is that now we miss summer... Because I know for sure those last six pianissimo chords right before the coda are with no doubt the very last falling autumn leaves. Then, a stormy winter ends the full work. I don´t know how, but this makes perfect sense to me. I know for sure the choral of love and its reprise are the apix of emotion in music. Pure love.
I think John Cage also spoke about the futility of "programmatic music." Most important, I stand in awe of Mr. Walker's vast knowledge and amazing analysis, thanks so much for this!!!
So cool to see this interview, I'm in college for medicine but wrote a paper where we could choose the topic and I chose to write and present about Chopin, I found one of Alan Walkers books for reference and ended up reading the whole thing as I found it so interesting
I have taken great pleasure in these podcasts and have learned so many fascinating things about Chopin. This particular podcast on the 4th Ballad of Chopin was particularly so, as I have always loved it the most. For me, it Chopin's heart, soul, and most of all his life all rolled into one incredible masterpiece. Thank you both. I will definitely be getting Mr. Walker's "A Life and Times"!
Alan Walker did some great series on Liszt as well. Hopefully when you’re done with Chopin you’ll cover him as well. It’s kind of amazing they were both around at the same time and same place and knew each other
@@benlawdy- Has the new edition been delayed? It sounds like your courageous defense of George Sand has forced Alan to reconsider his strong opinions about Sand's personal recollection of her time with Chopin in Mallorca. ;-)
@@j.vonhogen9650 I think it just takes a while go through the editorial review process and prepare for publishing. Alan has written the new essays, I know that! And I’m not sure about my Sand defense, but I do have more questions for Alan. I just don’t want this to turn into the “raindrop podcast.” But like, how do we know Chopin didn’t step outside? Also, wasn’t there a window he had access to? In any case, it’s worth pointing out that Sand didn’t actually think Chopin was directly representing raindrops, but only believed he was inspired by them in exactly Liszt’s sense. What I want to ask Alan next is, when Liszt is “inspired by” a storm in l’orage and writes stormy-sounding broken octaves, how can we say those broken octaves don’t represent a storm? It seems like at some point we’re getting into trivial semantics. Having said that, I understand that the question of program music vs intrinsically meaningful “autonomous” music is a hugely significant aesthetic debate going on 200 years, so in that light Alan is right to take the question of raindrops seriously and I admire his firm stance!
Bravo ×10 for this video, life-altering for anyone who has spent hundreds of hours studying Chopin and his Ballades (most professional pianists, let's face it).....A.W. is brilliant, and your work on this video and elsewhere amazing. Additional compliments for engaging Jed Distler in your other Chopin videos, he is a treasure.
As always, a really fantastic, inspiring and well-made video! Thank you! I’m curious if you’ve ever heard Josef Hofmann’s live performance of the F minor ballade-I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.
Dear sir Alan Walker, you and your work are a gift to humanity, thank you. About the memory of George Sand, or anyone's: yes I do believe people can recall memories so specifically from so long ago, I do. This put: I don't believe she, or anyone but Chopin, can say what he was feeling or thinking on that moment with the storm and on the composition of the preludes (or any compositions). Also: and I do believe she might have misrecalled or made up the sound of the raindrops.
Mahler famously said “A symphony must be like the world. It must contain everything,” As great as Mahler's symphonies are - Chopin only needed around 12 minutes to express every emotion known to the human heart. This work is a treasure beyond measure - as John Ogdon called it "the most exalted, intense and sublimely powerful of all Chopin's compositions... It is unbelievable that it lasts only twelve minutes, for it contains the experience of a lifetime".
I agree with you on your points. Except for Mahler symphonies being “great”. They’re not great. They’re transcendental. Despite differences of length and overall shape of musical ideas, I don’t think what Chopin achieved in his smaller forms is able to trump what Mahler did in his larger forms. If you want to compare, emotionally, what Chopin did with his music and what Mahler did with his music, Mahler beats him there, regardless of factors of length and scope. Im saying this as a massive Chopin fan.
I once took a course on narrative in music. The question is: can music (without a text) narrate? I understand the answer is no. The ballade is a narrative form. In this class, I centered on Medtner’s fairy tales. It seems to in these cases, these pieces are born out of impression(s). I remember first hearing a piece by Jehan Alain called “Tarass Boulba.” I wondered just exactly how this Russian novella had influenced him - I even wondered if it was a reaction to the French film that came out the same year as the composition (1936). I ordered the score. It turns out that the actual title is “Tarass Boulba, Encelade, Icare, etc . . .” - suggesting something more philosophical, perhaps pride before a fall, thus having nothing narrative at all in the work. It all seems to boil down to impression.
I feel as I agree to Alan, to an extent. Perhps we shouldn't limit a piece's vast imagination by predetermining what it can only be. But at the same time, speaking from my experiences only, one might listen to Schumann's Chopin and instantly be convinced that his piece does create an imagery, or evoke a feeling, of what Chopin would be like in real life. God, that piece literally 'feels like' Chopin, it's hard to put it.
Throughout music and literary history, Ballades tell stories, and knowing the crucial importance of the use of titles of his pieces, the word has similar connotations here. . In these pieces, the stories are the music itself. There is a "narrative," a "journey," upon which the music takes us, and a resolution and conclusion. There is nothing extra-musical about them. that is their genius.
A great insight on the 4th Ballade. The ballade came from Miskiewicz "Romaces y Balladys" wich were in fact Polish patriotic tales, for instance "Conrad Wallenrod". That's why Chopin said at the time he wrote his 1st Ballade that is was his dearest composition (because of it's patriotic rootes). I also don't buy "The three brothres" tale for Ballade 4... But i'm prety sure there might be one... The Ballades are about Polish Identity... Thats why they ment as much or more than the Polonaise to Chopin... They weren't just noble dances, they were the foundation of Poland as a Nation. As for the Raindrop Prelude, i've comented here before that the titlle or sugested title should be "Rainy" and it was written in Polish by Chopin in Zelenska's Score, as well as "Stabat Mater" for prelude nº20. It's a fact, not a story... That could be the imagery that Chopin found to give to Zelenska in his classes. Chopin refused to give titles, he just wanted us to guess as he wrote is the manuscript of Nocturne Op 15 nº3 "In Ophelia Funeral" (Hamlet) crossing it out later with the phrase "let them guess"...
Very interesting interview! It is safe to say that Chopin has composed many works that are of extraordinary beauty. I appreciate Alan Walker’s views. Most ‘explanations’ are made up by other people.
After decades being scared of it, I’ve recently tried No.2. No, I will never be able to make the stormy parts stormy enough, but I can make it sound reasonable musically. I suggest you give it a try, especially if you can play 3 and 4.
@@ropedragon9709 you’re right. I used an AI to clean of/reconstruct his voice because the original Zoom audio sounded like he had a “mouthful of rice pudding” (his words)
Another great video. It made me think about 5 great but very different artists: Baudelaire's poem 'Paysage' in which he seems to be saying that you don't need external stimuli to produce art ('De tirer un soleil de mon coeur, et de faire De mes pensers brûlants une tiède atmosphère') - Mussorgsky's 'Pictures' in which he is very clearly reproducing not only individual paintings but even the walking around the gallery itself - Beethoven who allegedly said 'I usually am inspired by something in nature' or 'read Shakespeare's The Tempest' - Schubert who writes [please read the Fischer-Dieskau excellent biography] in a letter that he tries to beautify his imagination due to the horridness of this life around him [or words to that effect] - Dali who says [cf a YT video of him saying this] that his 'dreamscape' paintings are actually not of dreams but the state of semi-consciousness just before one goes to sleep /wakes up - Brook and his final carnival-prelude entitled 'Chopin-Schumann' - ruclips.net/video/Xg58SeS50ek/видео.html
One can always appreciate a piece more if one knows what inspired it. This is why composers give titles to their works. Why else give a title? A Ballade is telling a story. Chopin obviously wants us to know that the music is telling a story, whether an existing story or a story of his own.
I always think of descriptive titles or programs as a bit of marketing. Not intended as direction for the performer or insight into the composer's inspiration, but to help sell the piece to the audience. I'll never forget a Professor trying to encourage me to title my works (I did the classic student thing of Untitled 1, 2, 3 etc), he told me about Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima. It was originally titled 8'37" and the inspiration was a purely a musical/timbral idea, but after hearing it performed Penderecki heard the emotional impact of the work and gave it the descriptive title. The piece became much more famous after that. I still prefer to let the audience interpret the work without leading them, but I notice the general public is unable to traffic in the language of musical ideas and almost always invents a vivid narrative when they hear my work. Interesting insight as always from Walker, but rather than criticize, I would credit George Sand for likely making the Db prelude much more famous than it otherwise would have been.
The opening measures reveal what the 4th Ballade is all about: In the upper voices, we hear repeated G notes as lower voices fall below. This represents trying to "hold on" (the repeated G notes) as you feel the world falling apart beneath you (the descending passage). The rest of the piece is an examination of how humans deal with loss of control, loss of safety, loss of peace. The chords before the coda are an ironic funeral dirge--in a major key. The coda is the arrival of the inevitable: Death--the end of our world entirely. The final four chords close the book on our "story".
That‘s a very interesting analsyis, one I haven‘t thought of in the fourth ballade! Do you think it aligns with what Alan Walker said, about how Chopin‘s music shouldn’t be reduced to “baby talk” (program music)?
Hmm, non vocal music might not represent the outside world but opera certainly does and oratorio probably does too. The orchestra conveys the scene which the singers emote to. Think of the opening of Rheingold, the river and the swimming maidens, or the overture to Marriage of Figaro, sheer emotional anticipation - the thoughts and dilemmas of the four characters. However, does 'pure' music - non vocal music - not express 'the outside world'? I think it's the liminal seam between the inner subjective world and the outer objective world, and we only have an inner world because of the outside world. Anyway the 4th Ballade speaks to me of immense angst releasing into supreme self-actualisation: yes he knows he's dying but he also knows what he had achieved.
All music is programmed music. Something is going through your mind when you play or listen to a passage. The net sum from all these passages is your program. Even a Strauss waltz (to me) is program music. At least when it comes to classical music, it’s always moving. I mean, heck, we even use the word “movements.” Music is hardly ever monotonous (and if it is, then that’s part of the program lol).
17:04 I’m arrested by that Schopenhauer quote.. wondering if i knew that once. I discovered him in middle school at the library when researching free will. I was a talented writer, but found words wanting, and music became my main focus by high school.
The 20th C Russian poet Akhmatova said that one of Pushkin's great contributions to russian poetry was the introduction of new and novel meters. We english speakers don't think too much about meter in our contemporary poetry, but russians do. It is not at all likely that you can match up one of M's ballade narratives with chopin's 4th ballade. That strikes me as a childish idea. But I think it is possible that M's meters and overall poetic forms might be something that stimulated the composition of the ballades. But I don't know anything about Polish lyric poetry. Too bad nobody else does.
I thought for one awful moment that someone was going to apply the phrase “ about nothing” to this incredibly beautiful masterpiece which the world has ever inherited! Thank goodness the video title was completely wrong and nothing more than click bait……..
Ben, I believe Walker touches on the point that I think unites all the ballades. I do not think any of them represent stories. Rather, I think Chopin wrote them all to represent emotional journeys. What I found a bit frustrating in the main portion of the podcast was your and Garrick's focus on the codas, as I think they are the least important aspect of interpreting the ballades. In the first and third ballades I think the central interpretive question is how you balance the three occurrences of the dominant theme. In the 4th ballade, of course, you have 5. I believe that each occurrence represents a distinct emotional state of mind. This was an interpretation I recently shared with a European concert pianist. if I had to apply a title to this ballade it would be "The Triumph Over Doubt." Imagine that your happiness or fulfillment in life is dependent on a particular belief. You are incredible content until a doubt about this belief begins to emerge from your subconscious (occurrence 1). You then begin to consciously question that belief (occurrence 2) even though you rationally believe the belief to be true. Despite rational analysis you enter a moment of panic and despair that you must be wrong (occurrence 3). That moment of despair passes, however as you regain control of your emotions. That first victory brings you back to your contentment (7:17) until the doubt surfaces again (occurrence 4). As the doubt tries to grow, however, it meets fierce resistance until it is affirmatively conquered with a sense of triumph (9:30-11:00) and confidence (the coda).
Wonderful. I would add an amendment and two thoughts. First, the f minor ballade is not merely one of the greatest works of 19th century music. It is a high water mark of human achievement equal to anything. Second, I agree the hand drives the composition and in this regard, I believe this holds true for Scarlatti and a good number of other composers. Lastly, there is a 17th century keyboard piece which has the vastness and greatness of this ballade, which is Frescobaldi’s Cento Partite. This contains every human emotion between heaven and hell one can imagine with start to finish gorgeousness, another piece greater than it can ever be played and is inexhaustible.
In his book "The Literature of the Piano," pianist Ernest Hutcheson claims that the title of "Raindrop Prelude" properly belongs to the Bb Minor prelude, not the Db Major!
@@miguelisaurusbruh1158 I had to reconstruct his voice using an AI because the original zoom audio sounded like he had rice pudding in his mouth. But it’s really him, just with an artificial effect so his voice is at least clear.
Leonard Bernstein discussing Beethoven's 6th Symphony: 'There is a popular myth that composers write the way they feel at that moment they're writing, which is simply not true. If you're suicidal, you stay in bed, depressed. You don't write music. Everything Beethoven did is a gloss on something that had already been done... The mould is always visible behind what he does.' ??
Well, I find myself wanting to defend george sand here. Certainly it is possible to recall events that left a strong impression from 17 years prior, while the humdrum events are lost. and this seems, by her (rather poetic) description, to have left an impression. as to the monastery, we're told that chopin was anxious that george sand was not back. would it not have been reasonable that he opened, a door, looked about for her, and heard the rain? lastly, the repeated tapping in the middle section is actually a little unusual for chopin and even a little dubious musically? so maybe it did mean something more than pure music. although it is also true that it is hard to find another example of anything programme-like in all of chopin's music, which alone is cause for skepticism.
The question is questionable. Asking what any musical composition is "about" presupposes music "means" something. Music is an organisation of sounds according to established norms and within a historical context. Chopin is not "participating in epic tales"; he is writing music. Chopin's music is phenomenal and the F minor Ballade is undoubtedly a masterpiece. As soon as one attaches "meaning" to music or describes what a piece "means", one diminishes the listening experience. Music, uniquely among the arts, elicits an emotional and intellectual response, so to assert what it "means" is to trespass on the listener's experience. It is interesting and illuminating, of course, to explore the circumstances surrounding its composition. Little more. Programme music is a creation of the will (Schopenhauer). Music stands alone., which makes it the most respectful, respected and elusive art form.
In a Tonebase video Gary Graffman singles out the second ballade as being the only ballade where there is no doubt it was based off of Mickiewicz’s poem Switez. I wonder what made him say that since it seems to run contrary to what Alan Walker says in this video.
@@Chopin-Etudes-Cosplay that was my video, and I’m sure the reason is that Gary is old school and these legends have been told by many influential musicians dating back through Cortot to Schumann. Nothing against Gary and that video was a lot of fun, but Walker is a meticulous scholar who searched for any hard evidence of Chopin’s deliberately programming Mickiewicz and all he could find was the gossip by Schumann in 1841, 5 years after Chopin reportedly told him about the link. My guess is that Chopin did tell Schumann he was inspired to write in a musical “Ballade” genre by literary ballads like those of Mickiewicz. But that’s very different than saying he actually set specific poems to music
Of course, some music explicitly has non-musical themes. Opera, ballet, and songs are examples of this, along with some symphonic poems. But most music has no explicit (or even implicit) non-musical themes. Tortuous attempts to attribute non-musical themes to pieces like the F minor ballade are wastes of effort and undervalue the music. Well said, Alan.
@@BRNRDNCK oh gosh yeah I don’t know about “best.” Easier to identify other superlatives like “most transcendent” (op. 111), and so on. Am I going to have to make a Beethoven podcast next?
@@benlawdy Well I love most of the Beethoven sonatas, but I’d contend strongly that Opus 109 is the greatest, and possibly B’s greatest work. Opus 111 is second IMO. And yes, you should make a podcast for Beethoven
When you like Schubert's or Schumann's "Lieder" not to talk about operas, you really wonder how someone can think music had nothing to do with the outside world. The idea of 'absolute music' is sort of a religion for some music scholars. Not to me.
I don't know if George Sand made it up, but the claim that she couldn't possibly remember it is really strange. I can remember things from many years ago, if they were sufficiently memorable (sometimes even without any apparent reason).
I'm not sure why there's such an insistence on Walker's part that music is a non-mimetic or non-representational art form. It can be, of course; but it certainly can and does re-present objective reality as well (as the Schumann examples--and any number of others--demonstrate). It may well be that Liszt was only "inspired" by the fountains at Villa d'Este, but it's hard to argue that the actual piece he wrote with that title doesn't also depict the cascading play of water--as do so many other "water" pieces ever since. And for that matter, to say, as he does, that unlike music, painting is a representational form, with a direct connection to an external reality, something outside itself, is equally misleading. Abstract expressionists for over a century have pretty thoroughly exploded that notion. We can accept that Chopin, from all that we know about his compositional process, did not write program music. Fine. But it seems to me Walker goes beyond that, suggesting that music with a program, a story, a set of images attached, is somehow a lesser form of artistic expression than the "act of will" he celebrates as a higher form of composition. For me, there's a touch of protesting too much.
I don't want to put words in Walker's mouth, but my sense is that he's taken up the old cause of musical autonomy (an out-of-fashion and heavily critiqued notion in western musicology) and resurrected 19th century viewpoints on the matter because he thinks music has for a long time been reduced to, or seemed to have to depend on, extramusical associations in order for it to convey meaning. We live in a society, after all, in which most of the music we hear accompanies visuals, words, dance, and so on. Music as a thing-in-itself is has always been an endangered species. And so while, yes, Liszt was inspired by fountains, and Chopin was inspired by literary forms, at the end of the day the music that came from these worldly influences is able to hold up without the titles and stories attached to it. And we know this is true, because often we hear this music before knowing anything about it, and it captures our attention and makes us listen, and we find it beautiful and meaningful on its own terms. If Walker doth protest too much, in this case I think it's warranted. Despite the Romantic efforts to extol it, music has arguably never been properly valorized in our society.
@@benlawdy I can appreciate that, Ben, and I didn't mean to carp in my response. It just seemed that I was hearing echoes of the old Brahms vs. Liszt set-to, a debate I'd have said we're pretty well past at this point. Music, no matter if it's been designed to represent particular things or emotions or ideas, is ultimately suggestive and will defy such programmatic impositions, right? Any individual listener is going to hear what they hear, be captured or not by what they hear, regardless of an intrinsic or appliqued program. That, to me, is music's power. When, in the late 19th century, Walter Pater said that "all art aspires to the condition of music," he meant precisely this, that while poetry is inextricably tied to words and their denotative meanings and painting (at least as he knew it, i.e., representational painting) was tied to the external world of identifiable objects, music was free from this explicitness, free simply to suggest. Notes aren't words or objects; they're not fixed but can find their way into all sorts of potent combinations, and harmonies, create all sorts of colors, all sorts of "meanings." You're probably right that music in and of itself (w/o lyrics, a narrative, a program) has "never been properly valorized." Which is another great reason to carry on with these riveting Chopin podcasts & videos you're providing. Many thanks!
seong-jin cho tried to explain something about it, i think this part of ballade4 is most beautiful , time 6:10 ruclips.net/video/1S67VhWbDik/видео.html
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I never expected to hear Alan Walker in real. I read his Liszt biography more than 20 years go. It transformed my life. Amazing interview!
There are several lectures given by Walker on his RUclips channel, some of them from the last couple of years - they're amazing ... as is he!
omg same. the Liszt biography changed my life too, I am literally the person I am today because of that.
What was it in the Liszt biography that had this impact?
@neshomk his depiction of the character of Liszt. He was extremely generous and larger than life, very religious and not a womaniser. In think it was his generosity of spirit.
Chopin TV every night. I'm loving this series and will be so sad when it's over.
one of the more precious series on youtube
Professor Walker looks very good for a 94 year old scholar. His mind is sharp!!!
I had to look up his age to verify for myself. 94 is incredible.
@@RafaelGarcia-ue6uc he looks 80.
I'm starting a petition to have Alan Walker narrate everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. Audiobooks? Alan Walker. Documentaries? Alan Walker. Need a male voice actor? Alan Wlaker. Need a female voice actor? Alan Walker. I think the world would be significantly better, if we just heard Alan Walker's voice on a daily basis.
6:33 Walker: "the ballades are things in themselves requiring no verbal explanation"
Well said! Why some people need a picture to imagine is beyond me.
It seems it gives some people a doorway into falling in love with pieces music, so that's a positive.
@@dwdei8815I agree. Walker is approaching his subject with a scholar’s eye. But who cares why people love a piece of music. Isn’t that the point of not insisting on programmatic meaning - that interpretation is in the ear and mind of the performer and individual listener? And anyway, Walker does expound at some length on the likely inspiration for no. 4…
Mr. Walkers voice is so deep. Sounds like a movie narrator
A great pleasure to hear Alan Walker again. All us pianists know and love his books on Liszt & Chopin. Exciting news about a 2nd edition of gus Chopin biography. Such amazing details surrounding the 4th ballade given to us as clearly and elegantly as he writes. Very grateful to have these recorded commentaries online to be preserved.
Arthur Rubinstein at the end , with Schumann help, reminded me why I love Chopin so much. His touch is un matched. Great and very interesting podcast. Found out a lot of things I didn’t know. Made me want to play that masterpiece again . Thanks
Wonderful chat with Alan Walker. After listening to the podcast, I decided to listen to some of the performances of the 4th Ballade that are on RUclips. That was a mistake! For the last month or so, the fourth Ballade has earwormed its way into my brain and I hear it all the time! I don’t just mean the simple melodic themes, I mean the whole darn thing in all its magnificent and infinitely complex glory! I have never found a way to “clear” an earworm. I just have to wait until it plays itself out.👂🏻🐛
I could listen to him all day. It’s such a pleasure to hear someone who speaks expertly and so clearly. Thx!
Ben, this content is so great. I appreciate you uploading these, and in such volume!
Scunthorpe boy makes good. Alan Walker is the greatest musicologist, wonderful knowledge and insights. What a blessing he has lived so long. May he remain with us for a long time. I read his Chopin biography and will buy the second edition for its new gems.
I would highly recommend all the viewers of this video to check out Richter's interpretation.
To me it perfectly encapsulates what this magnificent piece meant and added more.
Richters “war horse”. I just love even some recordings of his. Prague, Kiev,…
After reading around 10 renowned books on Chopins life/musicianship/teachership (from all aspects) and letters not only of his own, but letters and diaries of his students and friends, ignorant me thought I could not learn much more from another biography which, above all, isn't available in my mother tongue (German). So I skipped Alan Walker's Chopin book until now. Thanks to this Podcast I changed my mind. I was instantly impressed by this razor-sharp, classy gentlemen in those interviews, and persuaded that I would probably learn more from his Chopin biography than I learned from any other. So I bought it and are reading it right now. I did not regret it, the details are overwhelming!
Professor Walker's story of Chopin's losses made me cry. Of course, Chopin can do that with only two measures of music.
That revelation about Chopin's take on his own music is so ravishing! I wouldn't have expected another piece to surpass the Polonaise but as I've learned more about music I'm less surprised. The fourth Ballade is, of course, in a profound way, a piece which speaks for itself.. now, I really want to play it!
I read a few pages of George Sand's letters in their original french (I'm a native french speaker). It is written in the romantic style prevalent at the time. Events are over dramatised; a walk in the rain is described as a saga for survival. It seems that the goal was to elicit an emotional response rather than to be an impartial historical record.
Fascinating, as Dr. Alan Walker always is. Since he is the foremost expert on Liszt, in the future you should invite him to discuss some of Liszt's most important works such as his Sonata in B minor and his Ballade no. 2.
I love Alan Walker. He brought two of my favorite heroes of humanity together. Chopin and Schopenhauer.
The gold standard musicologist/biographer of the late 20th-early 21st century. Will have to get the 2nd edition of the magnificent Chopin biography.
This guy is my favorite part of the podcast. No nonsense.
What a jewel of a video, informative, interesting, vivid and stimulating. Alan Walker is an inexhaustible source of inspiration and I hope that we will see and hear more of him in the next videos.
I always felt it like the four seasons. We begin with falling autumn leaves, the last ones. Then begins a subtle rain in winter that derives in a storm. Spring is the 2nd theme, the lovely one, the one that makes you cry when it arrives right after that funny run at the end of "winter". After the spring choral, we have summer, sunny, dancing music, almost latin-like, with butterflies. This merges with autumn again, but a distintive one, with minor chords, nostalgic. Then winter again, but is weird too, like, we don't know for a while where we are. Then, after another storm, spring again, now for the climax, one of the most beautiful moments in the history of music, you know what we are talking about. The only break is that now we miss summer... Because I know for sure those last six pianissimo chords right before the coda are with no doubt the very last falling autumn leaves. Then, a stormy winter ends the full work.
I don´t know how, but this makes perfect sense to me. I know for sure the choral of love and its reprise are the apix of emotion in music. Pure love.
Excellent interview, Ben!
Thank you so much!
I saw the title and busted
Gesundheit
I’m enjoying this Chopin series very much. Thank you. Great channel
Alan Walker has a wonderful speaking voice imo.. incredibly articulate as well
I think John Cage also spoke about the futility of "programmatic music." Most important, I stand in awe of Mr. Walker's vast knowledge and amazing analysis, thanks so much for this!!!
Perfect timing. I received my copy of Prof Walker's Chopin today! Hooked from page 1.
What a true gentleman
priceless series. please never stop ben
So cool to see this interview, I'm in college for medicine but wrote a paper where we could choose the topic and I chose to write and present about Chopin, I found one of Alan Walkers books for reference and ended up reading the whole thing as I found it so interesting
What an epic voice
Compliments on this one, it spoke to me. Especially about depicting the inner vs. the outer life.
I have taken great pleasure in these podcasts and have learned so many fascinating things about Chopin. This particular podcast on the 4th Ballad of Chopin was particularly so, as I have always loved it the most. For me, it Chopin's heart, soul, and most of all his life all rolled into one incredible masterpiece. Thank you both. I will definitely be getting Mr. Walker's "A Life and Times"!
Thank you, really good - such a wonderful piece - and especially for locking horns gently with Alan Walker over extra-musical reference.
Alan Walker did some great series on Liszt as well. Hopefully when you’re done with Chopin you’ll cover him as well. It’s kind of amazing they were both around at the same time and same place and knew each other
A wonderful conversation by two esteemed teachers.
To me Ballade #4 has always evoked the emotions of mortality and the human trajectory; birth, labor, triumph, love, sadness, terror
I own Alan's three biographical books on Liszt. I need to read those.
Love your videos!
I'm a simple man. I see Alan Walker, I click.
Aaargh! I just ordered the FIRST edition. A new edition of the book is forthcoming? I look forward to it w diluted joy.
It's not coming out for another year, so enjoy the first edition in the meantime!
@@benlawdy- Has the new edition been delayed? It sounds like your courageous defense of George Sand has forced Alan to reconsider his strong opinions about Sand's personal recollection of her time with Chopin in Mallorca. ;-)
@@j.vonhogen9650 I think it just takes a while go through the editorial review process and prepare for publishing. Alan has written the new essays, I know that! And I’m not sure about my Sand defense, but I do have more questions for Alan. I just don’t want this to turn into the “raindrop podcast.” But like, how do we know Chopin didn’t step outside? Also, wasn’t there a window he had access to? In any case, it’s worth pointing out that Sand didn’t actually think Chopin was directly representing raindrops, but only believed he was inspired by them in exactly Liszt’s sense. What I want to ask Alan next is, when Liszt is “inspired by” a storm in l’orage and writes stormy-sounding broken octaves, how can we say those broken octaves don’t represent a storm? It seems like at some point we’re getting into trivial semantics. Having said that, I understand that the question of program music vs intrinsically meaningful “autonomous” music is a hugely significant aesthetic debate going on 200 years, so in that light Alan is right to take the question of raindrops seriously and I admire his firm stance!
Bravo ×10 for this video, life-altering for anyone who has spent hundreds of hours studying Chopin and his Ballades (most professional pianists, let's face it).....A.W. is brilliant, and your work on this video and elsewhere amazing. Additional compliments for engaging Jed Distler in your other Chopin videos, he is a treasure.
Could you imagine if chopin lived a lot longer? We'd have so much more of his music !!!!
The fourth ballade was never played in public while Chopin was alive? That is insane!
Alan Walker is a legend - best biography EVER.
As always, a really fantastic, inspiring and well-made video! Thank you! I’m curious if you’ve ever heard Josef Hofmann’s live performance of the F minor ballade-I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.
Dear sir Alan Walker, you and your work are a gift to humanity, thank you.
About the memory of George Sand, or anyone's: yes I do believe people can recall memories so specifically from so long ago, I do. This put: I don't believe she, or anyone but Chopin, can say what he was feeling or thinking on that moment with the storm and on the composition of the preludes (or any compositions). Also: and I do believe she might have misrecalled or made up the sound of the raindrops.
Thank you so much Ben Laude, all your videos,informations are so insightful and helpful !😀😊
Few musicologists have the credibility of Alan Walker. Would love to hear him often.
Wondnerful episode
Mahler famously said “A symphony must be like the world. It must contain everything,”
As great as Mahler's symphonies are - Chopin only needed around 12 minutes to express every emotion known to the human heart.
This work is a treasure beyond measure - as John Ogdon called it "the most exalted, intense and sublimely powerful of all Chopin's compositions... It is unbelievable that it lasts only twelve minutes, for it contains the experience of a lifetime".
Debussy famously said that Chopin was the greatest composer, because with the piano alone he discovered everything…
I agree with you on your points. Except for Mahler symphonies being “great”. They’re not great. They’re transcendental. Despite differences of length and overall shape of musical ideas, I don’t think what Chopin achieved in his smaller forms is able to trump what Mahler did in his larger forms. If you want to compare, emotionally, what Chopin did with his music and what Mahler did with his music, Mahler beats him there, regardless of factors of length and scope. Im saying this as a massive Chopin fan.
@@DynastieArtistique You can’t say one trumps the other, they’re just incomparable and are masterpieces in their own ways
I once took a course on narrative in music. The question is: can music (without a text) narrate? I understand the answer is no. The ballade is a narrative form. In this class, I centered on Medtner’s fairy tales. It seems to in these cases, these pieces are born out of impression(s). I remember first hearing a piece by Jehan Alain called “Tarass Boulba.” I wondered just exactly how this Russian novella had influenced him - I even wondered if it was a reaction to the French film that came out the same year as the composition (1936). I ordered the score. It turns out that the actual title is “Tarass Boulba, Encelade, Icare, etc . . .” - suggesting something more philosophical, perhaps pride before a fall, thus having nothing narrative at all in the work. It all seems to boil down to impression.
I feel as I agree to Alan, to an extent. Perhps we shouldn't limit a piece's vast imagination by predetermining what it can only be. But at the same time, speaking from my experiences only, one might listen to Schumann's Chopin and instantly be convinced that his piece does create an imagery, or evoke a feeling, of what Chopin would be like in real life. God, that piece literally 'feels like' Chopin, it's hard to put it.
'Nothing comes of nothing' - King Lear
Throughout music and literary history, Ballades tell stories, and knowing the crucial importance of the use of titles of his pieces, the word has similar connotations here. . In these pieces, the stories are the music itself. There is a "narrative," a "journey," upon which the music takes us, and a resolution and conclusion. There is nothing extra-musical about them. that is their genius.
A great insight on the 4th Ballade.
The ballade came from Miskiewicz "Romaces y Balladys" wich were in fact Polish patriotic tales, for instance "Conrad Wallenrod". That's why Chopin said at the time he wrote his 1st Ballade that is was his dearest composition (because of it's patriotic rootes). I also don't buy "The three brothres" tale for Ballade 4... But i'm prety sure there might be one... The Ballades are about Polish Identity... Thats why they ment as much or more than the Polonaise to Chopin... They weren't just noble dances, they were the foundation of Poland as a Nation.
As for the Raindrop Prelude, i've comented here before that the titlle or sugested title should be "Rainy" and it was written in Polish by Chopin in Zelenska's Score, as well as "Stabat Mater" for prelude nº20. It's a fact, not a story... That could be the imagery that Chopin found to give to Zelenska in his classes. Chopin refused to give titles, he just wanted us to guess as he wrote is the manuscript of Nocturne Op 15 nº3 "In Ophelia Funeral" (Hamlet) crossing it out later with the phrase "let them guess"...
Very interesting interview! It is safe to say that Chopin has composed many works that are of extraordinary beauty. I appreciate Alan Walker’s views. Most ‘explanations’ are made up by other people.
My favorite ballade. I can play 3 and 4 but 1 and 2 are forever beyond me.
4 is the most musically and technically difficult of the set…
After decades being scared of it, I’ve recently tried No.2. No, I will never be able to make the stormy parts stormy enough, but I can make it sound reasonable musically. I suggest you give it a try, especially if you can play 3 and 4.
1 is far easier than 4, you should give it a try!
Lol you can play 4, which is hardest IMO. I've played all but the 2nd one.
The Christmas concert on the 8th doesn't just feature Westminster Choir. The Bel Canto and Jubilate choirs will also sing.
Instead of the Raindrop Prélude, we can call it the Walker Mic Drop Prélude.
Who better to talk about a Ballade than a Walker?
Is it just me or does Alan Walker sound like an AI? I know he’s not, his inflections are just so precisely repeated it’s almost uncanny
@@ropedragon9709 you’re right. I used an AI to clean of/reconstruct his voice because the original Zoom audio sounded like he had a “mouthful of rice pudding” (his words)
Another great video. It made me think about 5 great but very different artists: Baudelaire's poem 'Paysage' in which he seems to be saying that you don't need external stimuli to produce art ('De tirer un soleil de mon coeur, et de faire
De mes pensers brûlants une tiède atmosphère') - Mussorgsky's 'Pictures' in which he is very clearly reproducing not only individual paintings but even the walking around the gallery itself - Beethoven who allegedly said 'I usually am inspired by something in nature' or 'read Shakespeare's The Tempest' - Schubert who writes [please read the Fischer-Dieskau excellent biography] in a letter that he tries to beautify his imagination due to the horridness of this life around him [or words to that effect] - Dali who says [cf a YT video of him saying this] that his 'dreamscape' paintings are actually not of dreams but the state of semi-consciousness just before one goes to sleep /wakes up - Brook and his final carnival-prelude entitled 'Chopin-Schumann' - ruclips.net/video/Xg58SeS50ek/видео.html
One can always appreciate a piece more if one knows what inspired it. This is why composers give titles to their works. Why else give a title? A Ballade is telling a story. Chopin obviously wants us to know that the music is telling a story, whether an existing story or a story of his own.
I always think of descriptive titles or programs as a bit of marketing. Not intended as direction for the performer or insight into the composer's inspiration, but to help sell the piece to the audience. I'll never forget a Professor trying to encourage me to title my works (I did the classic student thing of Untitled 1, 2, 3 etc), he told me about Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima. It was originally titled 8'37" and the inspiration was a purely a musical/timbral idea, but after hearing it performed Penderecki heard the emotional impact of the work and gave it the descriptive title. The piece became much more famous after that.
I still prefer to let the audience interpret the work without leading them, but I notice the general public is unable to traffic in the language of musical ideas and almost always invents a vivid narrative when they hear my work. Interesting insight as always from Walker, but rather than criticize, I would credit George Sand for likely making the Db prelude much more famous than it otherwise would have been.
The opening measures reveal what the 4th Ballade is all about: In the upper voices, we hear repeated G notes as lower voices fall below. This represents trying to "hold on" (the repeated G notes) as you feel the world falling apart beneath you (the descending passage). The rest of the piece is an examination of how humans deal with loss of control, loss of safety, loss of peace. The chords before the coda are an ironic funeral dirge--in a major key. The coda is the arrival of the inevitable: Death--the end of our world entirely. The final four chords close the book on our "story".
That‘s a very interesting analsyis, one I haven‘t thought of in the fourth ballade! Do you think it aligns with what Alan Walker said, about how Chopin‘s music shouldn’t be reduced to “baby talk” (program music)?
Hmm, non vocal music might not represent the outside world but opera certainly does and oratorio probably does too. The orchestra conveys the scene which the singers emote to. Think of the opening of Rheingold, the river and the swimming maidens, or the overture to Marriage of Figaro, sheer emotional anticipation - the thoughts and dilemmas of the four characters. However, does 'pure' music - non vocal music - not express 'the outside world'? I think it's the liminal seam between the inner subjective world and the outer objective world, and we only have an inner world because of the outside world. Anyway the 4th Ballade speaks to me of immense angst releasing into supreme self-actualisation: yes he knows he's dying but he also knows what he had achieved.
All music is programmed music. Something is going through your mind when you play or listen to a passage. The net sum from all these passages is your program. Even a Strauss waltz (to me) is program music. At least when it comes to classical music, it’s always moving. I mean, heck, we even use the word “movements.” Music is hardly ever monotonous (and if it is, then that’s part of the program lol).
17:04 I’m arrested by that Schopenhauer quote.. wondering if i knew that once. I discovered him in middle school at the library when researching free will. I was a talented writer, but found words wanting, and music became my main focus by high school.
The 20th C Russian poet Akhmatova said that one of Pushkin's great contributions to russian poetry was the introduction of new and novel meters. We english speakers don't think too much about meter in our contemporary poetry, but russians do. It is not at all likely that you can match up one of M's ballade narratives with chopin's 4th ballade. That strikes me as a childish idea. But I think it is possible that M's meters and overall poetic forms might be something that stimulated the composition of the ballades. But I don't know anything about Polish lyric poetry. Too bad nobody else does.
I was going to comment on what Mendelssohn had to say on what music means, but 17:27, thanks!
I thought for one awful moment that someone was going to apply the phrase “ about nothing” to this incredibly beautiful masterpiece which the world has ever inherited! Thank goodness the video title was completely wrong and nothing more than click bait……..
Ben, I believe Walker touches on the point that I think unites all the ballades. I do not think any of them represent stories. Rather, I think Chopin wrote them all to represent emotional journeys. What I found a bit frustrating in the main portion of the podcast was your and Garrick's focus on the codas, as I think they are the least important aspect of interpreting the ballades. In the first and third ballades I think the central interpretive question is how you balance the three occurrences of the dominant theme. In the 4th ballade, of course, you have 5. I believe that each occurrence represents a distinct emotional state of mind.
This was an interpretation I recently shared with a European concert pianist.
if I had to apply a title to this ballade it would be "The Triumph Over Doubt." Imagine that your happiness or fulfillment in life is dependent on a particular belief. You are incredible content until a doubt about this belief begins to emerge from your subconscious (occurrence 1). You then begin to consciously question that belief (occurrence 2) even though you rationally believe the belief to be true. Despite rational analysis you enter a moment of panic and despair that you must be wrong (occurrence 3). That moment of despair passes, however as you regain control of your emotions. That first victory brings you back to your contentment (7:17) until the doubt surfaces again (occurrence 4). As the doubt tries to grow, however, it meets fierce resistance until it is affirmatively conquered with a sense of triumph (9:30-11:00) and confidence (the coda).
Who is the pianist playing right at the end? Thanks!
Wonderful. I would add an amendment and two thoughts. First, the f minor ballade is not merely one of the greatest works of 19th century music. It is a high water mark of human achievement equal to anything. Second, I agree the hand drives the composition and in this regard, I believe this holds true for Scarlatti and a good number of other composers. Lastly, there is a 17th century keyboard piece which has the vastness and greatness of this ballade, which is Frescobaldi’s Cento Partite. This contains every human emotion between heaven and hell one can imagine with start to finish gorgeousness, another piece greater than it can ever be played and is inexhaustible.
Ben, first Chopin's teaches was Wojciech Żywny!!!!
Yes, Wojciech Adalbert Żywny
In his book "The Literature of the Piano," pianist Ernest Hutcheson claims that the title of "Raindrop Prelude" properly belongs to the Bb Minor prelude, not the Db Major!
wait why does he sound like a robot???
@@miguelisaurusbruh1158 I had to reconstruct his voice using an AI because the original zoom audio sounded like he had rice pudding in his mouth. But it’s really him, just with an artificial effect so his voice is at least clear.
Leonard Bernstein discussing Beethoven's 6th Symphony: 'There is a popular myth that composers write the way they feel at that moment they're writing, which is simply not true. If you're suicidal, you stay in bed, depressed. You don't write music. Everything Beethoven did is a gloss on something that had already been done... The mould is always visible behind what he does.'
??
I may or may not have clicked this because I was perplexed by the name Alan Walker (the old EDM artist???)
I mean, has anyone seen them in the same room?? think not
Well, I find myself wanting to defend george sand here. Certainly it is possible to recall events that left a strong impression from 17 years prior, while the humdrum events are lost. and this seems, by her (rather poetic) description, to have left an impression. as to the monastery, we're told that chopin was anxious that george sand was not back. would it not have been reasonable that he opened, a door, looked about for her, and heard the rain? lastly, the repeated tapping in the middle section is actually a little unusual for chopin and even a little dubious musically? so maybe it did mean something more than pure music. although it is also true that it is hard to find another example of anything programme-like in all of chopin's music, which alone is cause for skepticism.
The question is questionable. Asking what any musical composition is "about" presupposes music "means" something. Music is an organisation of sounds according to established norms and within a historical
context. Chopin is not "participating in epic tales"; he is writing music. Chopin's music is phenomenal and the F minor Ballade is undoubtedly a masterpiece. As soon as one attaches "meaning" to music or describes what a piece "means", one diminishes the listening experience. Music, uniquely among the arts, elicits an emotional and intellectual response, so to assert what it "means" is to trespass on the listener's experience. It is interesting and illuminating, of course, to explore the circumstances surrounding its composition. Little more. Programme music is a creation of the will (Schopenhauer). Music stands alone., which makes it the most respectful, respected and elusive art form.
In a Tonebase video Gary Graffman singles out the second ballade as being the only ballade where there is no doubt it was based off of Mickiewicz’s poem Switez. I wonder what made him say that since it seems to run contrary to what Alan Walker says in this video.
@@Chopin-Etudes-Cosplay that was my video, and I’m sure the reason is that Gary is old school and these legends have been told by many influential musicians dating back through Cortot to Schumann. Nothing against Gary and that video was a lot of fun, but Walker is a meticulous scholar who searched for any hard evidence of Chopin’s deliberately programming Mickiewicz and all he could find was the gossip by Schumann in 1841, 5 years after Chopin reportedly told him about the link.
My guess is that Chopin did tell Schumann he was inspired to write in a musical “Ballade” genre by literary ballads like those of Mickiewicz. But that’s very different than saying he actually set specific poems to music
@@benlawdy Thanks. I’ll go with that too then haha
4th is esential chopin
Everybody should listen to this video. I am speachless!
Of course, some music explicitly has non-musical themes. Opera, ballet, and songs are examples of this, along with some symphonic poems. But most music has no explicit (or even implicit) non-musical themes. Tortuous attempts to attribute non-musical themes to pieces like the F minor ballade are wastes of effort and undervalue the music. Well said, Alan.
Ben, I'm curious what your thoughts on Beethoven's sonatas are. Which do you find the best overall?
Why pick a single 'best'? What's the point?
@@BRNRDNCK oh gosh yeah I don’t know about “best.” Easier to identify other superlatives like “most transcendent” (op. 111), and so on.
Am I going to have to make a Beethoven podcast next?
please please please please please @@benlawdy
@@benlawdy Well I love most of the Beethoven sonatas, but I’d contend strongly that Opus 109 is the greatest, and possibly B’s greatest work. Opus 111 is second IMO. And yes, you should make a podcast for Beethoven
George Sand made up her life and her experiences. If you prefer fantasy ... Chopin was too great an artist to be constrained by her imaginative life.
When you like Schubert's or Schumann's "Lieder" not to talk about operas, you really wonder how someone can think music had nothing to do with the outside world. The idea of 'absolute music' is sort of a religion for some music scholars. Not to me.
What does it mean? To me the 4th Ballade is like Autumn becoming Winter.
Ah Alan Walker, the guy who wrote ‚Faded‘ - right?
I don't know if George Sand made it up, but the claim that she couldn't possibly remember it is really strange. I can remember things from many years ago, if they were sufficiently memorable (sometimes even without any apparent reason).
Yes, Robert Graves said things that I would say are also really strange.
Ben, Do you glorify your maker? He gave Frederic all his gifts just like you.
I thought it mas Alan Wlker the electropop artist 😭
Alan Walker is a god
The pronouncement of Mickiewicz thrown me somewhat off, by thinking he might be a relative of the Scientology boss.
I'm not sure why there's such an insistence on Walker's part that music is a non-mimetic or non-representational art form. It can be, of course; but it certainly can and does re-present objective reality as well (as the Schumann examples--and any number of others--demonstrate). It may well be that Liszt was only "inspired" by the fountains at Villa d'Este, but it's hard to argue that the actual piece he wrote with that title doesn't also depict the cascading play of water--as do so many other "water" pieces ever since. And for that matter, to say, as he does, that unlike music, painting is a representational form, with a direct connection to an external reality, something outside itself, is equally misleading. Abstract expressionists for over a century have pretty thoroughly exploded that notion. We can accept that Chopin, from all that we know about his compositional process, did not write program music. Fine. But it seems to me Walker goes beyond that, suggesting that music with a program, a story, a set of images attached, is somehow a lesser form of artistic expression than the "act of will" he celebrates as a higher form of composition. For me, there's a touch of protesting too much.
I don't want to put words in Walker's mouth, but my sense is that he's taken up the old cause of musical autonomy (an out-of-fashion and heavily critiqued notion in western musicology) and resurrected 19th century viewpoints on the matter because he thinks music has for a long time been reduced to, or seemed to have to depend on, extramusical associations in order for it to convey meaning. We live in a society, after all, in which most of the music we hear accompanies visuals, words, dance, and so on. Music as a thing-in-itself is has always been an endangered species. And so while, yes, Liszt was inspired by fountains, and Chopin was inspired by literary forms, at the end of the day the music that came from these worldly influences is able to hold up without the titles and stories attached to it. And we know this is true, because often we hear this music before knowing anything about it, and it captures our attention and makes us listen, and we find it beautiful and meaningful on its own terms. If Walker doth protest too much, in this case I think it's warranted. Despite the Romantic efforts to extol it, music has arguably never been properly valorized in our society.
@@benlawdy I can appreciate that, Ben, and I didn't mean to carp in my response. It just seemed that I was hearing echoes of the old Brahms vs. Liszt set-to, a debate I'd have said we're pretty well past at this point. Music, no matter if it's been designed to represent particular things or emotions or ideas, is ultimately suggestive and will defy such programmatic impositions, right? Any individual listener is going to hear what they hear, be captured or not by what they hear, regardless of an intrinsic or appliqued program. That, to me, is music's power. When, in the late 19th century, Walter Pater said that "all art aspires to the condition of music," he meant precisely this, that while poetry is inextricably tied to words and their denotative meanings and painting (at least as he knew it, i.e., representational painting) was tied to the external world of identifiable objects, music was free from this explicitness, free simply to suggest. Notes aren't words or objects; they're not fixed but can find their way into all sorts of potent combinations, and harmonies, create all sorts of colors, all sorts of "meanings." You're probably right that music in and of itself (w/o lyrics, a narrative, a program) has "never been properly valorized." Which is another great reason to carry on with these riveting Chopin podcasts & videos you're providing. Many thanks!
seong-jin cho tried to explain something about it, i think this part of ballade4 is most beautiful , time 6:10
ruclips.net/video/1S67VhWbDik/видео.html