What a Difference a Cable Makes! Technics SL-1200MK2 Upgrade
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Cable skeptics beware! My curiosity led me down a rabbit-hole and the making of this video. I recently purchased a second Technics SL-1200MK2 and my impressions were that it didn't sound as good as my other one.
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Capacitance in RCA cables matter when using a MM cart. You can argue about cables in other areas of the system, but getting the proper amount of capacitance for your cart makes a massive difference in sound.
@@DG-ie5ip Yup…for sure 👍
Very,very true. Unless you're fortunate enough to own a phono stage with true capacitive loading.
I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that high capacitance cable = more treble. Low capacitance = more bass.
I never looked back after getting a nice interconnect for my first CD player. I could hear a difference very clearly. TTs you have to be careful. Just to share some info, my tech in MA. is a TT addict, he had a 40,000$ table in his shop, he sells equipment too. He makes his own TT interconnects and he uses coaxial cable. Very important to be shielded.
Anyway want to share this information with you.
I can see why people might want to have RCA sockets on their turntables to use whatever cables they like. However, as an engineer I can also see a major problem with that, in that most MM or MI cartridges need to be loaded with specific capacitances to get flat frequency response, and to sound the way the cartridge designer wanted them to sound, and shielded audio cables can vary widely in their capacitance, between different examples.
As already mentioned, coaxial cable, as used for (radio or TV) antenna leads, or video leads, tend to be low in capacitance, so are suitable for use with turntables. But not all other shielded cables are - I’ve got leads which vary between about 50pF per metre of length (excellent for turntables), and 300pF/m (terrible for turntables!), and there’s no way of knowing by sight, without measuring them for capacitance.
So for many turntable manufacturers, their solution was to use fixed output leads of a suitable capacitance (typically 70-150pF), so that people couldn’t change them, and alter the sound of a cartridge for the worse, by using cables with a too-high capacitance. See the following picture, for how much it can affect the frequency response of some MM or MI cartridges, in this case, the ADC 10E MkIV, as measured by an audio magazine. With an extra 250pF or more, the cartridge would be sounding quite shrill due to the noticeable electrical resonance introduced (the ‘bump’ in the response), followed by a very dull sound at higher frequencies due to the level rolling off rapidly above that resonance. The top one was measured with only 145pF output cables, and the lower ones had extra capacitance added to that 145pF value.
Effect of capacitance load change on ADC 10E IV.jpg
So if you are going to use new cables, remember to use the lowest capacitance cables you can find, and try and keep the total capacitance of the cartridge to amplifier wiring well below 100pF, if possible. You can add more capacitance if needed (at the amplifier input), but it’s impossible to take capacitance away, without shortening the output leads, or modifying the amp/receiver. And depending on the capacitance of the turntable leads, and what the cartridge needs, you can get a change in the frequency response of an MM or MI cartridge, and it may sound quite different.
However, I'd stick close to what the cartridge manufacturer recommended for a capacitance load (if they did), since they should know what they need for the best frequency response. Remember that you also need to add in the (phono) input capacitance of the amplifier to the leads, to get the total capacitance that the cartridge sees.
Kind Regards from Don
I love your channel and get so much from it, I hope you get something out of this information.
I've had my Technics 1200 MK2s for 24 years. Bought both turntables in the year 2000. I spin Drum & Bass so I need everything to sound crisp, clean, with the best lows and the highest highs.
My Teac receiver died recently and so I bought Technics SB-A27 speakers from a dude on Craigslist for $150. The guy threw in a Sherwood receiver for free.
I have a backup Teac receiver, but I hooked up the Sherwood to hear how it sounds since the dude threw it in...and everything sounds amazing!
Also have Ortofon Pro-S cartridges that I've been rocking since 2012.
I fell in love with Drum & Bass again after hearing everything in my rig.
One more step to take, which you might not have tried, would be to compare both turntables with each of your two M91ED carts, in their own headshells, swapping them back and forth to assure yourself that there are no differences in playback that might be attributed to the particular cartridge/headshell combination such as mating, alignment, vta, stylus condition and so forth. My assumption that you have two M91EDs could be wrong. If so, my apologies. BTW, congrats on the Walsh speakers. And hats off to Marty Gersten for his foresight and pioneering efforts in the speaker industry. I owned Ohm Fs in the late '70s and before that, had a pair of Rectilinears. Both very good sounding speakers. Great video! added comment: I was wrong suggesting swapping cartridges and headshells. Having watched the video again, I saw that there was one M91ED in one headshell. Is the VTA adjustable on the 1200s ? Could that be a reason for the different sound from the two, along with the cable changes?
One Shure cartridge swapped between tables. Yes, VTA is adjustable and was set correctly, I believe. Did you watch my Ohm Walsh 2 video about how I acquired them? Thanks.
I had all 3 of your demo records, then in the late 90’s, my ex took all my records. I just started recollecting and had completely forgotten about these 3, thanks!
Roxy Music and Bryan Ferry in your collection. Now that is style.
That's what I thought when I saw his Ohm Walsh speakers, very nice!
Would be nice to add RCA jacks on the 1200Mk2 instead of a fixed cable, so you could swap/upgrade as you wish
You can do this. just watch a video of someone swapping out the cables for the LP120USB, and He shows You how to do this. ruclips.net/video/WpeL7lUonQ4/видео.html This also works for SL range of TT's. Hope this helps.
Just got the 50th anniversary deck and happy to report…it’s got plugs rather than cables.
There are kits for that purpose on ebay, KAB USA, etc.
Those Mogamis are great cables with really good capacitance specs of around 65 pf / m. The stock technics cables are actually quite high quality, but let down by the cheap plastic molded connectors which have a tendency to fail. They have a capacitance of approx 93 of / m so the Mogamis are lower.
I recently fitted a pair to my turntables and very happy with the results. It's worth saying that at an overall diameter of 4.8 mm x 2, they are a fair bit wider than the stock ones but they do fit in the cable clamp without any modification. Probably the maximum cable diameter that will fit in the clamp and I wouldn't go any wider than this.
I also have the KAB super flex tonearm wire installed in both decks which is also a worthwhile upgrade
You’re almost definitely hearing the difference in capacitance in those cables. Too much capacitance on certain MM carts via cables can make em sound harsh, but not enough can make them sound dull. It’s not just a matter of resistance, which you can obviously adjust on a decent phono pre. Not all MM carts sound best set at 47K. One of my decks is a 1200 MK5, which I’ve done a lot of upgrades and mods to over the years, and changing phono cables no doubt makes an audible difference. I’m glad you showed the difference between phono cables. AC and speaker cables are another situation, where the difference between them is usually more subtle that it’s often times difficult to tell any kind of difference if your system isn’t resolving enough, plus you need to know what to listen for. ✌️🎶🌝🔊👍
@@DG-ie5ip Thanks very much. I occasionally end up watching electronic vids like this: 🤦♂️ lol
It’s of course not necessarily a good idea to take on projects without understanding the basics. A simple understanding of what capacitance and resistance does in a phono circuit, from the cartridge to the output of one’s preamp is indeed extremely important and easily measurable. I built one of my phono preamps, and added loading plugs and added a SUT for use with MC carts. For MM, I just remove the SUT and find the resistance that sounds best.
Edit: I’ve got loading plugs from 100 ohms up to 100K. Every cartridge sounds best when fine tuned to the rest of your system. 👍🔊🎶😊
Quality cables and wires certainly do make a difference even before we get into the preamp stage.
Just bought my mk2- mint condition. Was in a closet… wont change a thing. Its a vibe thing. To each- thrill your own ears. Nice video. Nice system.
I have three SL-1210mk2's and upgraded them with better cables and wiring and longer heavier counterweight for better tracking. The difference Is amazing. This Is why my Rega Planer 3 Is In It's box In the loft. Thanks for sharing.
I’m gonna do this. I use shure m447 carts and I know this will make it sound better. Also I have the stock rca that came w my 1200m3d back in 1999. Might do the rca input on tt so I can unplug them and when put in coffin it won’t bend the wires like normal. Good comparison vid!!!
The origin connectors may look cheap and flimsy, but inside the wires are soldered directly to both the pin and the outer ring contact.
This is usually not the case with more expensive gold plated brass RCA plugs.
Next video Deoxit/clean/polish all connections or change the RCA input connectors to something better. Makes a huge difference :)
Very interesting, I agree with your comments, I have two of my turntable silver wired, and I would like to say I really like that technics 1100.
Great video mate, I watched this to decide If I should upgrade the wiring loom for my Stanton ST150 (known as the tech killer) I’ve decided to order the new wires on line because you have satisfied me that it is worth it.
My observation of your video, with what you are saying about the difference in bass between the 1200 and 1100A, is that I think there would be a factor of low frequency transfer from the environment of the room for the 1100, which would present as deeper but looser bass and in a way providing a bass boost. I say this because I have observed it when I have changed locations of turn tables relevant to my speakers, and noticed boost in bass with some turn tables, that turn into low frequency feed back when the volume of an amp is turned up. The 1200 is designed to be played in a club where there is a pumping PA system staking the room. It’s key focus is to prevent bass feed back or loop from the environment to the needle.
If you experimented with a superior cartridge on each table, I think you would find that the bass would improve on the 1200, as that it is designed to be as neutral as possible and the better cartridge would improve the bass of the 1200, but show little improvement on the 1100, because it would be interfered with by environment, due to a different plinth structure.
Have the technics sl 1100a for about 40 years and decided to get the technics 1210 m5g . Two because I dj. I noticed the same thing you did. I look on utube and ran into your video. I noticed you not only had the same problem but had the same turntable as me. What a coincidence. Anyway I'm getting rca jacks installed on mine. Thsnk you for your video it was helpful. I watched it 4 times and gave a like and so on.
With all due respect, you've been visited by Dr. Placebo, who is very influential. Your comment early on, that you're not blind or AB testing, plays out here. Also, you didn't say anything about the cartridge. Did you use the same model in all cases? Even 2 of the same, can sound different, as a result of factory tolerances and stylus condition. I could see where cable capacitance can make a difference in the highs only. I'll keep an open mind re the arm rewiring. I'm well aware of the kabusa site. Auditory memory is notoriously faulty. You would really need to do instantaneous blind switching.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a subscriber, and very much enjoy your site. Keep up the good work.
I thought that I was clear about using the same Shure cartridge. Easily swapped from table to table.
I’m not crazy, I heard what I heard. You were not there in the room with me.
Thanks for the input though, I expected comments such as yours. All opinions are welcome and appreciated.
@@MODAC Sorry, I missed that about the cart. Still, you would have had to do instantaneous switching, for an AB. Again, I say you heard what you wanted and expected to hear, which is different than what you actually heard.
Some great musical selections. Definitely in my goto list. And nice effort to start understanding how to get the most out of your vinyl.
Now you need to try a good belt drive with a lower mass straight arm. While extremely popular, direct drive turntables (with a few exceptions) use multi pole DC motors. Typically 4 pole. Which means the motor pulses 4 times in a rotation. This muddies the sound. Belt drives tend to use AC synchronous motors instead and the belt absorbs any remaining pulsing.
There is a pivot point and the cartridge mount. Laws of physics/ shortest distance/ straight line. The correct amount of mass keeps the stylus in the groove while allowing the arm to move to tracking needs. Excessive mass causes excessive stylus movement and distortions due to the arm not moving as needed. Or overshoot due to inertia of that mass.
Back in the day I used to show the very obvious difference by mounting the same carts onto a belt drive and a DD turntable. Put on the same disc. and do an A/B. The first thing always noticed was the DD sounded louder. The stylus modulated by the DD motor in addition to the music in the groove. Then those inner details muddied by the pulses would start being noticed.
You show the interest and ability to recognize the differences. Good hunting! And keep us updated.
I own nine turntables including a Rega Planar 3. I appreciate your comments and understand the advantages and weaknesses of the different designs. Did you watch my Golden Age of Turntables 1958-1982 video? Thanks
@@MODAC I have to admit I am new to your channel. I will be checking more out. It's a trigger thing. I did the comparison so often back in the day and the SL1200 was often the DD comparison, it just was an autonomic response.
@@DG-ie5ip Yes in fact the Thorens was better than the Empire I was introducing as a Rep. But with similar, better than DD results.
I have found over decades in both HiFi & auditorium PA that audio performance is very greatly influenced by just maintaining good low impedance continuity through all connections. You would probably achieve a similar result with the turntable simply by using a good contact cleaner/lube/conditioner such as a Deoxit product. I have no affiliation with them but having initially tried cheap contact cleaner I found their products safe and very effective over a long time (they have a very good reputation in the audio repair industry). Just using a cheap cleaner allows the connection to oxidise and quickly loose performance. However, the cleaner/lube/conditioner is conductive, increases effective contact area and seals the connection from oxidation. I think almost any conductive wire offers far less signal impedance issues than the actual connector contact surfaces or dodgy soldering/wire wrap etc, by orders of magnitude. I would always try the clean/lube/condition solution 1st & only replace wires if there is a specific problem. This could be a fault or just below par gauge (impedance). With a TT, you have a number of connectors to deal with. cartridge to head shell, head shell to tone arm wires. The tone arm wires then connect with the external signal cable. That is for a vintage TT, modern TTs generally have more electronics, they may had a TT preamp to output to SE signal level or perhaps an internal DAC, various digital connectivity outputs etc. Generally though, modern TTs have poor Wow & Flutter and poor S/N compared to decent Vintage ones, but I digress. Back to the point, Modern TTs tend to have a more complex signal path with a lot more internal connections to maintain. Earthing can also a very big S/N issue with TTs. You need very good clean earth continuity. Be warned, Vintage TTs run mains voltage internally and the strobe light voltage can also be nasty. Don't mess with anything around the power supply or strobe light unless you know what you are doing, which capacitors are dangerous and how to discharge them safely etc. Lube, condition & adjust the speed trimmers and control.
Excellent recommendation…..I removed cartridge (SL1300/M95ED) and applied a wee bit of deoxit to all connections. Things sound crisp and tight, maybe psychological?……not sure, but I think there is an improvement. Thank you for the detailed explanation…..the logic makes sense.
@@bwalsberg Thanks for the feedback, glad you like the result.
5 minutes into your informative and interesting video.... you pulled out Avalon as a test record... that's when I went ahead and hit the subscribe button. I'm a working Dj and a fan of most genres... THAT record right there is probably in my personal top 5 of all time. Just dropping a comment of appreciation of your choice =)
I love that Album, I got hooked on his music I have 14 of his solo and Roxy music albums. His Avonmore album is really good, but it takes awhile to get into it, one of my top five by him!
@@joelane7146 I have ...The Atlantic Years...Love it
Thank you for the info on cables. I bought a set of Blue Jean cables for my Audio Tachnica AT-LP120XBT-USB turn table. What a big difference those cables made. My Bose speakers sound so much better now. That was the last thing I needed to do to my turntable to make it complete and bring it to the level I wanted in this turntable. I think I have roughly 600.00 in this set up with the upgrades I've done to the turntable. Thanks again man for your input and help. Peace and love, Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Which Blue Jeans cable did you buy? I use their interconnects and speaker cables. I own a Technics SL-1800 and would like to replace the old RCAs.
$600 would have bought a real turntable.
I have had a “looks good from far away” Technics SL-D1 that works ok collecting dust in my basement waiting for me to refurb w a paint. Your video has given me motivation to upgrade the cables and get started. So thank you.
I have reconditioned enough units, mostly boom boxes, but never a full paint. If anyone has any suggestions for a good silver that would match other vintage factory silver gear let me know. Great show.
RUclips is great source for info like that. Look at videos about painting 1200s. They could provide helpful info.
You're correct it's an awesome turn table I bought a sl-1200 brand new when it came out who is $180 my friends thought I was nuts spending $180 on a turntable it showed me quite well I no longer have it I have a bunch of other ones you could say I'm a audio harder but I repair listen I have a systems hooked up at all times it's fun it keeps me busy have a great day thanks for the videos
Talk about nostalgia. Back in the 70s and 80s a lot of audio dealers used Aja to demo their sound systems. I use an Aja remastered CD to show off my systems today.
Excellent album. Thats one of my favorite albums to test a system out as well. Mines the first MCA press, i love it. That drum work at the end of the title track is incredible
@@TheAirConditionerGuy Nice!
@@TheAirConditionerGuy You have a good ear, Sir. That is the one and only Steve Gadd. He, and Bernard Purdie both appear on this album, two of the most sought after drummers in the music world.
Yeah! Blue jean Cables!!! I use them on all 3 of my turntables.
Awesome video , i snipped a couple high density Monster RCA cables on one end and modded a 78 Pioneer deck to fit. I de-pinned the connector, took the wire out and solder in the Monster Cables. Had to make the outlet bigger out the back of the turntable.
Similar result , picked up some bass and clarity.
I agree with you.. and add that the mat can also change it slightly. Yours were very similar so probably not a factor here.
I have been using an Sl 1600 mk2 that had some major upgrades, and I agree with you that cables can make a major difference, Alas this turntable has developed an electrical problem and the cost I have been quoted for repairs has meant it has been put in storage until I cam work out what I will do with it.
Blue Jeans makes really good cables
I think "The Low Spark of High Heel Boys" is an EXCELLENT choice for testing a system, and not just because its a great track. A few years ago, after I bought a particularly nice set of headphones (KKRs) I was listening to that track one night and I heard headphone bleedover, one of the takes for a particular musician had a different vocal. Another excellent choice is "Dazzle Ships" by OMD, one of the best engineered records I own, and it was done completely analogue.
As others have said it may be do to capacitance however what ever makes it sound better works. I have a hi$$$$ end table as well as a 12 and I find the 1200 to be just as enjoyable if not more so. I kab KAB rewire and dampen the arm as as well as add jacks so I can put whatever cable I wish. I use moving coil cart and just love everything about it. My ref has more detail and better staging but I get a rumble of the rim drive when my headphones are being used that the 1200 doesn't have
I bought 3 sets of 90pf Technics OEM replacement tonearm cables from KAB about 20 years ago, while they were still available. Early RCA cable failure was a known defect of several Technics models of that generation and I have already replaced 2 of my Technics turntables tonearm cables with only one in reserve. Damn, I should have bought 4!
Whether or not there's any audible difference, I think it's still a good idea to change the cables, if only for aesthetical reasons, and hopefully your technics will be good for a few more decades 😉.
Nice system. And I love the stand the holds the turntable and electronics in the center and shows two album covers on the sides.
Power cables, signal cables and speaker cables make a big difference. Remember that it is not always the most expensive cables that will be the most and best compatible cables for your system. It took me a long, long time to find cables that fit my system and my taste. I had to try many brands until I found optimal cables for my system. I was surprised at how much difference there was in the sound between different brands even though they were in the same price range. Some cables made a blurry sound, some pulled down the treble, some pulled back the midrange and the voice was dark and weak, some made the base deeper but undefined and on the contrary hard and defined. In the end, I found a brand that gave me a perfect balance between everything and made my system play the music magically. Everything from High, mid-high, mid and low was phenomenal. If you want to get the most out of your hi-end system, you should replace speaker cables, signal rca cables and power cables. But as I said, try different brands until you find optimal cables for your system, and even cables need to be burned in. Power cables long burn-in, speaker cables also long burn-in, singnal rca cables a little less burn-in. After the burn-in time, the absolute best optimal sound comes. Believe it or not but my Power cables and speaker cables performed best after 1 year of burn time. Then the sound changed to the most optimal and perfect sound regardless of whether you played at low or high volume and every single tone / electron was synced to the max between the right and left speakers. Every single frequency sent by tubeamp came out without a loss.
I am planning a cable video in a few weeks. Thanks
In fact, expensive cables are always a waste. Using the right cable is the crucial thing. Dont use regular RCA cables for anything, they are trash. If you have the option to use balanced cables, always use those. If you need to use an RCA, use SPDIF (shielded RCA). For speakers, use any thick (12 ga or lower) multistranded cable. That's all you will ever need to know about cables: science, not magic.
BTW the reason for multistrand is simply because they are flexible and thus easier the handle and snake around.
Cables, expensive always sound better !
I have the same issue with glare and upper midrange harshness. Seems to be getting worse as I get older.
I'm going to give you not an opinion of an audiophile but facts from an electrical engineer with nearly 50 years of experience who has specified, bought, and installed many millions of dollars of all kinds of wire for many purposes. Can different cables sound different. Yes they can. But here is an explanation based on science and math, not on opinions. BTW audiophiles hate me but I couldn't care less. This is just one small example of where I bust them. Do with this what you like but at least you have another point of view. BTW, for signal cables Belden is considered the Rolls Royce of cables but now there are many other brands that perform just as well.
So how do cables make a difference? They change the frequency response of the system. If you have all of the necessary parameters not just of the cables but of the source and load impedances you can calculate it. Further down I'll show you a RUclips example of how it is done. We probably know more about cables than any other electrical component. Cables are seen as what we call a distributed parameter filter network. That's right, a filter network meaning that it is frequency selective. The Telegrapher's equation gives the lump sum parameter equivalent which depends on the length of the cable among other things. Here it is.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegrapher%27s_equations
Knowing these parameters for a specific cables is necessary for engineering purposes but not enough. Here is a demonstration of how it is used. The tedious work of performing the calculations is done by the software to predict the frequency response. The actual demonstration of its use starts at about 5:35. Notice that Gdx is omitted. That is because this is the conductivity (inverse of resistance) between the wires and for audio frequency it is so close to zero it is irrelevant.
ruclips.net/video/O1LQ6r4n4mk/видео.html
This method applies to virtually all electrical circuits. Is wire a good choice for a control element of a sound system? NO, it is an awful choice. It is expensive, hit or miss, not adjustable, unpredictable. You can achieve identical results with a graphic equalizer properly adjusted. So the first thing people who make and sell audiophile wires is to convince you they are the devils work. Using one properly requires skill and patience as well as a fairly experienced ear, something most audiophiles lack in my experience. It's your money, not mine so it doesn't matter to me whether anyone believes it or not.
most people with an interest in audiophile, or audiophile adjacent, results would be well served to know a few electronic basics and to understand how human hearing works, that it is not fact based.
Depending on the exact cartridge and pre-amp you use.. For MM type cartridges the capacitance of a phono cable can matter a lot, but lower isn't always better. This is because your cartridge, the cabling and the input stage of the phono pre-amp together make for an LCR ring, and C just needs to be of the right value (dicated by your cartridge, and tunable with both the cable capacitance, and on more advanced pre-amps, the capacitance setting of the pre-amp. If the later is very flexible in this, lowest would be better probably, but try, because it is very much depending on the cartridge and pre-amp also, and of course on the internal cabling.
Sounds very complicated.
@@MODAC either use a MC cartridge (and suitable pre-amp), or.. have a pre-amp on which you can change the capacitance (if I remember right, you are very much into classic receivers, and I'm sure some of the more up-market ones from the 1970s have this, else, something like a pro-ject tube box s does), and try different settings. For a typical MM type cartridge the expected capacitance is usually specified, so if you know the cable, you can actually calculate what the pre-amp should be set to...
But no need to calculate, you will clearly hear the difference between totally wrong and approx right.. the gain between almost right and right requires a lot more carefull listening, but you seem a good listener, so probably you will still appreciate that bit of gain.
Listen for how well balanced mid and high tones are, and especially listen for any sign of a specific mid or high frequency being boosted strongly, or early rolloff of high frequencies, those are telltale signs of capacitance mismatch. From your description of how your new cables sound better, I think a fair part of the improvement you are getting is due to better capacitance matching, and part due to lower resistance and better connectors.
@@MODAC The Shure M91ED is an old high inductance type moving magnet cartridge that is very sensitive to capacitance loading. I would suggest you replace it with a moving iron type such as those made by Grado, Nagaoka or Soundsmith. These are available in all price ranges. Moving coil types are also relatively insensitive to capacitance.
i found you to be spot on on whar you said about cable make a huge difference in listening to my records ill keep watching keep the videos coming thanks
Thanks for a solid review? Very Common complaint. If a guy was planning to hang on to one it's not difficult to retro fit rca jacks also power cord socket.
If you’re going to keep your old SL-1200 and never plan to sell it, go crazy with the KAB upgrades; if you’re not sure, you might want to just sell it (not recommended!), save up the cash and buy a GR. The Litz tonearm cable upgrade and RCA interconnects made the most difference in all of my mods, but it’s definitely a labor of love. Add the internal tube sleeve while you’re there, and check the contacts for the barrel connector, because this is the time to replace it. You really need to look at all of the RUclips videos for this because the way you reassemble it has to done in the correct order else you will taking it apart again and again and you don’t want to do that. My VTA ring is not quite right so pay very close attention to its positioning when it’s tightened as far as it can go so you can duplicate the results. Good thing is, once you’ve broken down and reassembled one of these arms it’s a cakewalk the next time (if ever).
I have upgrade the cables as you suggested. Look out for my next video coming soon.
I am kind a skeptical to what you said but in spite on that I added one more like
I swapped out the phono cables on my vintage Sony PS-X600 turntable with Vadamme silver plated lc cables, a huge improvement to an already fantastic sounding Bio trace Turntable.
I need to do that to my vintage Kenwood KD 2000 from the 1970s. Did you set the ground wire? Alot of people say don't set the ground wire?
Hi, put some good Cardas RCA's on the 1200 and that would probably be a huge upgrade. I have Cardas on a Rega RB 300 on Re-built Lenco and sounds awesome!
Nothing audible is the answer.
Ive done ABX tests with people who made rewire upgrades on their Technics and suddenly you cant hear the differences when you dont know which one is playing. Go figure, placebo is a heck of a thing.
Technics were installing high capacitance cables in the 1200 for a time; if the high cap stuff has been switched out for low, that's going to be audible, especially the upper mids, which might get a couple of decibels quieter depending on the cartridge, and any resonant peak will get pushed further up the frequency range.
Thought you knew about this stuff 🧐 Where's Leon The Pro? What have you done with him?? Imposter!!
@@phishpot Youre talking resistance loading (pf) from the cart to the pre amp I assume.
You can try ABX testing a pre amp using 100pf to 200pf. Should make up most of the difference any cables will. You will not be able to identify a difference unless maybe you listen exclusively to HF test tones or something akin.
Ive also as mentioned I tried people on their ability to hear cable upgrades in their modded 1200s and they cant.
But if youre sure you can, feel free to try ABX testing yourself.
Nah... I already did all this 🙂 Both capacitance and resistive loading have an effect on the frequency response which is easily heard and represented with a response graph.
Decreasing the capacitance increases the resonant frequency of any peaks that exist (usually more prevelant with a fine line / Microline / shibata / FG variant / put yours here), decreases the roll off above the resonant peak, and, depending on the cartridge, affects the volume of the frequency regions beneath the peak, e.g, upper mids when dealing with Audio Technica.
Resistive loading only affects the amplitude of the resonant peak.
@@phishpot Just because something is measurable doesnt mean its audible. You can measure speaker cable differences too, never been any listening tests confirming it.
Again, listen to some actual music and try to ABX test yourself. You might be surprised.
@@leon9021 @Leon I did - I have a DJ Pre II with a 100pf/200pf switch refitted with custom caps changing the selections to 33pf and 133pf, the person who did this also insisted on swapping out the capacitors on my PP2 preamp and seeing which values I liked the best. When the upper mids vary by up to two decibels it's dead easy to A/B between recordings of the different configurations.
And now that I have changed phono cartridges, I'm two decibels down in the upper mids, and we are about to do this all again 🙂
You can't compare speakers with magnetic phono cartridges. Magnetic cartridges are highly susceptible to capacitance in the cables. Speakers are not.
All albums mentioned are some goodies. I was wanting to see you do the work. I have a technics SLD2 and the cables have gone to crap.
I'm considering installing RCA phono jacks (Neutrik) in place of the RCA cables that are common for most TT. This way, I can swap RCA terminated cables (Interconnects) at will without having to de-solder etc.. Thoughts? Incidentally, sometimes your first cable swap sounds better due to corrosion. If you just pull out and re-insert your old RCA phono jacks ten times or so or simply cleaning with deoxit, you might hear an improvement.
Cables make a huge difference on older tables. I loved every mark 2 I ever owned, but hated the mark 3 and mark 5's. I had a very rare sl1200 gold I absoluted hated for sound. I can only think it must have been poor cableing. I tried about ten different carts on it, and could not get it to sound good.
I have three of these beasties. A Mk5 and two Mk5g. In one I upgraded the tonearm - to a Jelco 750D. My experience with the other two is that the wiring is ok as is. Ie no benefit from redoing the wiring. There was however a tiny benefit in upgrading the connectors. I chose Furutech that used set screws rather than solder.
I just did the same wire job on my SL-5200. Sounds great! The tonearm wiring alone is worth it. The original wiring appears to be aluminum? Copper litz is definitely an upgrade.
really like the looks of the 1100
Nice to see you keeping the Technics SL-1200 running in great shape.
Good to see you upgrading the TT. Should make a huge difference. Rewired my Rega with an actual ground cable... lacking on the original.... and can now use a true Hifi tonearm cable.
Really enjoy how it all sounds. Those little upgrades start to really add up over time.
It's probably just due to the difference in capacitance of the cables, as MM carts are generally heavily impacted by total capacitance. Shure carts are known to need higher capacitance to sound their best, while AT carts are the opposite i.e. need lower capacitance. You also have to factor in the input capacitance in your phono stage to match the cart. Cheap RCA cables are generally higher capacitance, and if your phono stage already has about 200pf capacitance (very typical), generic RCAs could be overloading the Shure cart and making it too bright and thin, while the low capacitance BJ cables are probably the better match in this case.
I would assume you used the same cartridge on all 3 turntables (by swapping headshells), right? The slight difference in bass between the two models of Technics could be due to a difference in tracking force or VTA...did you take the time to normalize all alignment parameters across the turntables?
Stylus alignment has gotta be bang on, amount of times I took headshell off and put back on again, never going to get it perfect In same spot, I'm on mk5g's connecters are gold technics brand, quite chunky to be fair, only thinking now Monster cables are more chunky and I've allways rated them! maybe I might bite the bullet!🤔
I recently replaced the power, ground and RCA cables wired to my turntable...for $60 including labor it was a sound improvement worthy
If you clean the connections in the tone arm with some switch cleaner this will make a big improvement. The metal will tarnish over time. I've done this on my turntables. SL1200 more of a DJ work horse but it's a great turntable if you just want to listen to music.
Meh plenty people also think the SL-1200G is a DJ deck, funny people don't know what they're talking about when they think they know all about 1200s 😂
Don't take them seriously.
You should make the phono cables yourself, it's not that hard.
I recently made a phono cable of Mogami 2964 wire and Neutrik Profi plugs - I used pick up some hum, but it's dead silent now, even with low output moving coil cartridges.
KAB is a good store, I can definitely recommend the TD-1000 tonearm damper!
If you want a classic 1200 with removable phono cable, you should get a 1200MK4. The new 1200s also come with detachable cables.
Btw, the reason that those BlueJeans sound better is because of lower capacitance, which provides a flatter frequency response when using a MM cartridge.
There's a lot of cable voodoo in the HiFi world, but this is an actual real thing that can even be measured and calculated.
Oh yeah btw, nice setup, love those speakers 👍
I have djed with Technics SL 1200 MK2-5 for most of my dj career over 20 years now and I have been repairing turntables for a long time as well. They are not the best sounding turntables. Out of all the turntables I have came across through the years, the best has been the Gemini PT series of tables 1000 II and up. And also the Gemini XL 600. All these tables have high quality gold plated Jack inputs. I had replaced the cables on both of my Technics SL MK2's like the guy in the video and the Gemini's still beat them in sound. The thing about the Gemini sound is that it has the best HI's or treble I have ever heard. The mids and bass sound good and detailed as well. I have tested the Gemini's against Stanton 150s Vestax and Numarks as well and it beat them in sound too. I love the Technics SL series of tables there legendary but they are just Mid level Hi Fi tables at best.
Oh in 2019 is when I switched to DJing with Gemini PT 2100 for the better sound. I'm an audiophile and do a lot of mixtapes so sound is very important to me.
Another company I’ve had great experience with is worlds best cables. Running Mogami and nuetrik w my 1200GR and they are great. Apparently they take some time to “break in” as well. Also have the vintage aDcom like yours!
Totally subjective but if that's the way you roll that's fine. By the way I am a John Hiatt fan now - thanks!
Excellent upgrades and recommendations! I'm using the same exact Mogami cable on my SL-1600 and those tonearm wires from KAB as well. 😎 Also, Low Spark & Aja as test records? Hah! Great minds think alike, those are my go-to's as well! ✌️
Doh! Almost forgot, I noticed you had a later pressing, but I highly recommend trying to track down an Island pink label 1st pressing of Low Spark.. You should definitely notice a big difference there as well! 🤘
Fascinating video - I've done the cable thing on my PX-2, and older but reference design TT from Yamaha - in the real old days, HP, from Absolute Sound magazine really liked this table - anyway, similar to you, I installed litz high end tonearm wire and bypassed the connecters inside the table and then hard wired the tone arm wire directly to (for the time) high end interconnect - - that table, which in my opinion was already excellent, was practically transformed - I still run it to this day and it holds it's own against my current reference TT - anyway I share your findings - thanks for posting.
I believe by adding a mixer and the same record on each turntable it would have been a more thorough AB test ...
Though I believe adding premium cables as mogami helps receive a much better sound transfer and lessens outside interference.
He didnt touch on the ground...
These are all very objective I mean subjective observations maybe we could do like a recording of analyze it to see the differences
The only way to find out if there are any ‘differences’ in sound, is to digital record the output and apply a null-test on the audio files.
The only way???
This is interesting and funny, I am listening to this on an iPad really makes no matter to me.
Ah yes the death of quality sound.
I listened to this on hi end sound system and clearly heard the difference..
Your right in what you are saying 👍🧢
I have found turntable cables do make a difference in the sound of music at the speakers. Turntables seem to have a greater vulnerability to cross-talk especially at longer cable lengths. I'm blessed to not have your acute sense of hearing. My collection is mostly cheap Sony, Sansui, JVC and Technics turntables producing music I love. My collections high end turntables are a Dual 1229, Dual 704 and Dual 721 installed with basic Shure cartridges. I'm not particular as you regards sound. I'm a philistine when it comes to music reproduction quality. Music either sounds good or bad. I don't like tinny music, I love a deep full bass, high notes that tickle my ears and expanded surround sound. I like hearing individual instruments in music, not a muddy noise mix.
Fantastically engineered design. Several more expensive high brow turntables spend so much money and material to achieve the same level of robustness as the sl1200
Those cables come from Monoprice if anyone is interested in getting them unmodded. They also make fantastic and inexpensive speaker wire.
Gemini PT series (1000 II and up) and the Gemini XL 600 are the best sounding turntables I have ever come across. I have been Djing and repairing turntables for over 20 years. Now I wouldn't recommend djing with Thorens turntables these days but I will say there series of tables would be in 2ND place in my opinion when it comes to sound but there not the best for DJing now a days. Gemini's great sound is new too a lot of people but the Thorens for years people knew they sounded better than Technics even Technics with upgraded cables.
Can’t beat Mogami cable. Most audiophiles don’t rate it because it doesn’t cost three digit amounts.
The Cure Head On The Door. Was the first album I ever heard on Compact Disc. Bet it sounds Great on record.
The Blood sounds amazing, when Porl does his solo it'll give you goosebumps. You can get the 180g for around 20ish dollars you won't regret it.
Very interesting, well worth doing, especially if ones 1200’s are for PA (big systems) playing to the public at gigs / raves etc. Nice one ☝️ dude! 👊🏼
Thank you for a very good video
In fact, the biggest upgrade you can do to any turntable is to throw away the regular RCA cables. They will catch all types of electrical interference. A simple test, turn everything on but dont play the record, crank the volume all the way up. 95% of that hiss you will hear is the crappy RCA cables. Simply replace them with SPDIF "shielded" RCAs commonly used for video applications This will immediately eliminate more than 75% of that hiss, which is what causing all those deleterious effects that you are hearing when actually hearing music. SPDIF cables are only slightly more expensive than regular RCAs. A decent pair is less than 20 bucks. The only negative is that you will have to supply your own ground wire and that each channel will have a separate cable instead of being bundled. This is particularly easy to do if your turtable has an RCA output instead of the crappy RCA being directly wired as in some cheaper decks. On those cheaper decks you will have to open them up and replace the cables inside.
Wow a lot sharper nice 👍
Great video man. Informative and really entertaining. I have great gear, Technics 1200 mk5, Shure v15T3, mac amps etc. , buy ive always used crappy thin generic RCAs. I am now convinced! Time to upgrade wires!
Hi do you rate the Lenco L75?
Just upgrading my SL-1200mk2 this week with the same new interconnect cable! I also have to replace the pad they solder to. Did the new cable fit through the clamp that screws to the metal plate on the bottom? Mine seems like it is a bit too thick.
I'm no expert here. But the only thing that makes a difference here is the capacitance, right? From what I can gather, basically all the 1200s had somewhere around 30pf (actually 10pf it turns out) for the cabling inside the arm plus 125 pf (actually 90pf according to several tests) for the RCAs. That could be a little much when you're using a cartridge with low tolerance for high cap values, such as an Audio-Technica (they say loading should be 100-200pf) and a standard or built in phono pre-amp, which generally is around 220 pf (an Ortofon MM shouldn't present a problem though).
Technics apparently made a mistake with some 1200MK2's made in around 2009 which shipped with cables with a capacitance value of about 300 pf. Since that would give you a total of about 500-600pf with an average phono stage a cable swap might be advisable on those models. But the old tried and true ones... do you really need to upgrade the cables on those?
UPDATE: I've checked. And it seems all SL-1200MK2s, except for the ones made in 2009/2010, came with cables that had a capacitance of 90pf, plus 10pf for the tonearm wires. That's Technic's own specs and it's been confirmed in multiple tests. You could maybe push the 90pf down to 50-60 pf with a very short, ultra-low cap cable. But that shouldn't make much of a difference. So if you're not unlucky a managed to get hold of a 1200 with the faulty cable this exercise is quite unneccesary, I think. Replacing the hardwired cables with RCA jacks so you can use whichever cable you like could be sensible if you're a DJ though. But I'm not buying the notion that you can hear a difference.
Not scientific but none of these comparisons are. The main thing is you have a good set of ears and got it right IMO. Good job.
More like a good set of placebo
great content wonderful speakers lucky man thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Hi There ,
Enjoying you channel thanks for all the content. I’ve just purchased 2 1210 used and one thing I’d like to do is upgrade the RCR cables .However I’m not super confident with a soldering iron ,and I don’t trust myself to solder on the the internal bord . So my question is if I externally solder joined the existing cable to a new set of gold plated RCA cables do you think this would be an improvement in sound . Thanks for your help . In. advance.
Bren Dublin Ireland 🇮🇪
No, I would definitely not suggest that. Look on RUclips for videos on how to replace the cables to see how it’s done. Thanks.
so how can we measure that cables, to be as closest to original (when factory new), when replacing them? Are the original ones still available to buy for us to service the 1210 MKII?
I have difficulty believing there's that much of a difference in changing wire, as there's plenty of "snake oil" being sold out there, going back as far as Monster Cables back in the 80s. A more tangible test which would show visual proof would be to get one of the CBS Labs test records with all the tones and compare the resulting audio levels using an accurate VTVM or oscilloscope. How much improvement, if any, is phycological by suggestion and what, if any, is actual real-world performance increase? Besides, what small samples may have been included in RUclips would be deteriorated by compression artifacts in the video so viewer can't really judge, either.
Believe what you like. Not doing any of that.
I agree, but a visual inspection doesnt matter, whats audible is the only important thing, this is not.
@@leon9021 If you can't measure it with test equipment, you cannot possibly hear it.
@@HobbyBroadcaster Im unsure, but even if you can measure it, doesnt mean you can hear it is my point.
The Shure M91ED is an old high inductance type moving magnet cartridge that is very sensitive to capacitance loading. There is therefore nothing the least bit surprising in what has been reported here. There are large and easily measurable changes in high-frequency response with changes in input capacitance. (total capacitance-=tonearm capacitance+interconnect capacitance+preamp input capacitance) There is plenty of information available on this topic on the web.
How is the proper connection for the earth/ground? I’ve got an SL-1210 mk II hooked to a DBX BX-3/CX-3 combo all two prong plugs. Should all chassis be grounded directly to the wall socket screw or all to the pre-amp and a single wire to the wall?
Very interesting comparison between the two decks.
Nice things you spotted. I loved how the one i bought sounded with the original cable yet i put a 40 dollar one after the phonostage.
If you hear deeper bass and better highs thats a valid assesment.
I remember putting a clip on my speakers elac b5 wires and taking off the treble grills after a long time and the result was hugely improved.
The arm on the SL1100A may be higher in mass (looks like it is) and the M91ED is a highish compliance, perhaps too high for the SL1100A and more suited to the SL1200Mk2. That may explain the difference in perceived bass extension and control. A lower compliance cart would put the resonance frequency higher...away from the warp range...allowing more stable tracking and "tighter" bass, whereas a too compliant cart (for the arm mass) pushes the resonance down to where imperceptible record warps upset the cart's stability, lending a "wallowy" quality to the bass. That's my theory...
Looks like a fellow SU alum. Class of '84 here.
Daughter graduated from the law school in 2020. Thanks.
Defo sounds way better, even through my phone on the u tube ha.. Cool video, cheers..
Those 12’s are worth more now than they were the day they were purchased. I bought a pair in 97-98 for 699.00 per. I’m positive they’re worth double that now.. you should consider buying the covers they sell that go over the body of the deck. I think they sell for $50 per. One thing I’ve learned over the years of playing my turntables out and about is not to twist the jacks when you go to pull that jacks out. If you twist them you can break the soldering inside the mixer or tuner. Treat yourself to the covers. It will make your decks look identical and brand new.
Only a blind AB test counts though.
If i upgrade stuff i already think it's better.
I have a technics SL1900 with an ortofon blue and also upgraded the RCA cables
with a thicker wire and shielded gold plated jacks (about $20 cables)
and I will confirm that it does sound better,
the bass got tighter/louder the mids/highs are cleaner and bigger,
my next upgrade will be upgrading the tone arm cables, can anyone recommend a brand or type?
Thanks for sharing!
I can hear subtle differences on Techincs, might be good weldings most important in cable matter?
awesome setup....great video
Good video David! Well done on your upgrade! Did you use silver solder? How did you rewire the headshell connector on the arm - is it easily removable? The generic cables sounded flat and undynamic to me, listening on my computer. With the sunlight shining on the LP at 15:43 to 16:07 I had the feeling that the vinyl was very dirty - but it might have been an optical illusion compounded by the patterns of the grooves, the rotation of the LP, the frame rate of the video camera and the pixel resolution of the video camera.
I have recently done a "tweakfest" on my system and one of the biggest improvements was clean power supply (230V here) and RF-proofing all power to the system with ferrite cores.
Reason being I have two WiFi routers and a cordless phone very near the system. This made a huge difference with more dynamics, more treble energy, more space round instruments. De-coupling the speakers from the floor also released deeper bass and more energy in mid and highs. Give it a try and see what you think. All the best, and keep enjoying the music! Rob in Switzerland.
Even in the Quietest Moments