Building a HI-FUNCTION cold air box.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In this, episode 139, DV shows how to modify an existing so called 'cold air' box to functionally raise it from mediocre to a substantially higher capability.
After completion the MotorTec Features gang took the new setup to Shadyside Dragway for testing and netted the quickest ET to date with the 2.3 Ecoboost Mustang project car.
I thank David Vizard for the treasure of information that he shares without caveat. Thank you so much a true treasure!
Improvement thoughts - There are my thouhgts not as an expert or someone with a phd, but someone who did a lot of research when building my home and shop to get the best energy efficiency. A lot of this research involved heat transfer, so hopefully it is actually correct for your application and mayb helpful to you. I would love to see you give it a try and see if it helps! Here is my take.
I believe your airbox is absorbing heat. In order to prevent your airbox from absorbing heat, you need to reflect that heat away. that's where the reflective material comes into play. When you are reflecting heat, you are reflecting radiant heat. Radiant heat is heat that is moved without direct contact. A reflective material will reflect some of this heat, so something shiny is a good idea. That's part of why the shiny air tube works well.
Then why isn't it working? Becaues your reflective material is in direct contact with the airbox. The heat is being transferred by conduction, which is heat transfer through direct contact. In order for reflective material to work most effectively, it requires an air gap. Easiest way to explain is to think if your heat shielding the same way a heat shield on exhaust manifold is installed to prevent a starter from heat soaking. the metal shield is not in direct contact with the exhaust manifold or the starter. The heat id reflected away, and it cannot be transferred to the starter by conduction because the air gap acts as an insulator to prevent the heat transfer. Also, the airflow around the heat shield helps to keep the heat shield cool because the air passing around the shield takes heat away from it and carries the heat towards the back of the vehicle. You need an air gap. Shiny thin aluminum installed around the airbox using standoffs will give you distance. 1/2" should be good. Also, try to have the shield open at the front of the engine, then have it curve down behind the airbox so the air is directed down and away from the engine bay. The engine heat will be reflected by the shiny material and the airflow will remove the heat that is absorbed by the aluminum. It can't reflect all of the heat, it is going to absorb some, so cooling it with airflow will help a lot.
Your air box is heating up and retaining the heat that is getting to it and the airbox is holding that heat. That is because the materials you are using have a high heat capacity. Heat capacity is how many BTUs of energy can be stored in 1 pound of a material. To overcome the problem of your airbox retaining heat, you need something light that has a low heat capacity. With all the black paint and lizard skin you are adding, you are giving that air box a greater heat capacity. It is going to take longer to cool down. It will take a little less time to heat up because the heat energy has to be absorbed by that material before it can affect the temperature inside the air bos, so for drag racing, maybe that''s a plus, but what you really want is to prevent the heat from getting to the surface of the air box in the first place and a low heat capacity so it takes less energy to cool it down,
If you can find a lighter (and lighter colored) material than the black plastic, it will improve it. If you feel you need insulation more than the heat shield and air gap, use something low density like a mineral wool insulation , but pack it loosely, not tightly. You want less weight, and loosely packed insulation will have less heat transfer by conduction.
The color matters! Black is not one color, it is all of the colors. This means black is absorbing all of the energy from the light being put towards it. This is why black leather seats are worse than light colored leather seats when it is hot out. Don't paint your stuff black. Paint it while. White absorbs substantially less heat than black will. Use a gloss paint to get the added benefit of reflecting radiant heat.
1. Keeping the radiant heat away be making sure there is an air gap between your reflective material and the air box.
2. Reduce heat transfer by conduction by using a loose fill light weight insulation
3. Use the fresh air from the front of your car to cool the heat shield and airbox by directing flow between and around these parts and direct the hot air down and away from the engine.
4. Reduce the thermal mass / heat capacity of your airbox assembly by using materials that are lightweight and have a low thermal mass.
These things should help you reach your temperature reduction goals.
I really enjoy your videos, I just came across them tonite and am very much enjoying learning a ton. Thank you and I hope my advice helps you!
I love the REAL DYNO proven results from the track😉. Much better proven results in real world situation then in a Room. Good job guys, Keep it coming.
On my 2013 Boss 302 I ran a Steeda CAI. It was the open top style with weatherstrip that attempted to seal against the hood. The car had an IAT readout from the factory. Sitting at a stoplight in summer traffic IAT would rise into the 130-135 degree range. As soon as the car got rolling IAT would drop fairly quickly and would reach exactly ambient. The other car on which I did on the road testing was a 94 Supra converted to single turbo with 500 whp. It had a large front mount air to air intercooler with temperature sensors at the inlet and outlet of the intercooler. The air filter was mounted just above the airdam completely isolated from the engine compartment. The intake tube was wrapped in some sort on insulation. Sitting at idle I saw the same 130-135 degrees as in the Mustang. What was interesting were the temps under power. At 15 psi boost temperature at the IC inlet was somewhere around 175 degrees (I think. It's been 30 years). Outlet temperature was within single digits of ambient. That GReddy air to air intercooler was quite efficent.
Loctite PL MAX Premium gray color is great for gluing air boxes together for custom configurations. It will even glue polyethylene and stick very well even though it says it is not recommended for that purpose. It is amazing and will fill gaps and can be even used on plastic fuel tanks which I have done for moto cross.
Nice. It’s hard to find stuff that works on plastic fuel tanks.
I once used Seal-All with a shop towel patch. Did the trick.
Very impressive insulation job
Now for the heat soak problem, two things need to be overcome, heat leaving the engine and heat staying inside the airbox.
For the engine,
*Intercooler
*Dual water/methanol injection setup, one for performance and with a button press switch to a tank used for maximized cooling
*High flow radiator fan paired with a high powered motor
*add heatsinks to the hottest parts of the engine, that also has passive/active airflow.
Heat soak cannot be prevented, so increased insulating properties and heat removal are the only options.
*Silica aerogel insulation, extremely lightweight with similar insulating properties as vacuum glass. And 2-3 times as effective as spray foam. (conduction/convection)
*space/Mylar blankets, but might prove to be similar to aluminum foil. To be Tested (radiation)
*Ceramic paint such as SuperTherm used by Nasa (Conduction/Radiation/Convection)
It is good practice to have multiple layers of different materials, as heat/energy is not just 1 thing it consists of 3 conductive properties Radiation, Convection and Conduction and each needs their own insulating property.
Heat Transfer, Diamond is amazing at transferring heat so if you have a spare diamond intercooler lying around that would be best :)
*Drill small paths in the middle of your insulation and add copper/aluminum tune and create a radiator inside to dissipate the heat, add it to your cooling circuit of choice or create one.
*internal heatsinks inside the airbox, create small lanes inside the airbox to increase the surface area so heat can dissipate faster
*Active cooler (electric turbo/fan) that can manually be switched on to suck/blow air though the airbox
Have fun, i did thinking and researching while writing this comment
To add, make the hood of the car a giant heatsink increasing teh surface area of the top and bottom. Adding copper would be great but will be costly and heavy. So painting it black would suffice
I've used a product called "Double Bubble" in aviation applications. It works better than anything else I've used. It does dry solid, so be careful you don't put it on an application that needs to flex.
There's also a paint product used in boat applications for the inside of the hull to, in that case keep the heat in in cold climates.
Double Bubble is epoxy similar to the JB epoxy
Guys,
Thanks for all the glue/epoxy suggestions. Many of these I had never heard of before.
BTW the guy who suggested plastic welding please let me know how welding plastic to wood is done!!!!
We see lots of aftermarket Hot Air boxes at the shop, this should actually work!
DV. The jb weld epoxy created heat that doesn't like foam or wood. Smooth on products make a coating or glue called Epsilon that is made specific for foams or soft materials. It will also except paint. In reality, the entire air box and tube could be made out of carbon fiber. Lighter weight, cooler temps and better looking.
7:14 I have some experience with that, ive recently built a kit car that used a fair amount of "spaceage" ashesives.
3m has an application chart on their website.
Plug in the two substrates you are trying to glue together, and they will tell you what to use.
I wanted to glue some abs bumper material to some fiberglass.
They said dp-8010.
2oz tube was like 60$!!
But it works.
It glues low energy plastics ,which is a very difficult thing to do.
I believe in the reviews I read a customer that had a very demanding situation of needing to glue Teflon to metal where it would be at 150° f all the time. This stuff does it.
I own about every book you published. I read these and learned every time I reread them.
I have almost everything you have written. I learned and kept learning.
How many people can put a riding mower on a highway and get a speeding ticket.
Thanks
Mikel
Pm
One of the difficult things with new cars is they have everything packaged very tight so it makes mods like this a lot more tricky than the days when you could hide a full grown man in the engine bay with the engine. LOL
DV - When you mentioned troubles with the glues/adhesives and the balsa, and foam used:
Could you list all the other adhesives you tested, other than the JB Weld Clearweld epoxy you decided to use?
---
Looking forward to the results of the later prototypes! Keeping the air 1F or 2F above ambient outside air on the freeway is QUITE promising. Thank you so much for the testing and sharing this information!
I've ideas for non-prototype construction bouncing around my head. But I'll keep such comments reserved until after your second round of testing proves out all the other materials and construction methods.
Glad you are keeping a track correction factor in mind .
5:00 ill vouch that their sound deadening spray works very well,im very impressed by it in a recent car i built.
Hopefully their heat blocker tests out just as good ,as ive seen the video on their site.
That video is just as impressive as the one for the sound deadening!
Anyways, if this heat blocker seems to be legit ,i guess ill have to gut my interior and go to town.
I wouldn't mind if my feet stayed a little cooler ,so do the firewall and floor at least to keep the road heat from radiating thru.
Love your experiments and thought process David. It's cool to see the results in increments. Your definitely on to something! 👍
David instead of balsa you could use coroplast. Its essentially corrugated polystyrene. Commonly used for signs so you can get it for free if its an election year.That would give you an air gap. Just be sure you pot the exposed edges with epoxy or model airplane filler (or drywall compound if you are really trying to save a buck).
On top of the coroplast I would use aluminum faced duct insulation. Leave it shiny so it can reflect radiant heat. If it has trouble sticking use an epoxy or polyurethane adhesive.
If you have the room I would add more insulation. Rockwool and Fiberglass insulation board both work very well for high heat areas but about thinnest you can find is 1". Maybe try a fiberglass sheathing product. That should be 5/8" but is rather heavy. Polyiso has the highest insulating performance but is flammable.
Very cool. Nice job. I love this stuff. Very nice job!
I'm glad the lizard skin worked for you. Thank you for testing it.
G'day DV just wondering if your mustang has a coolant heated trottle body , ive notice an aproxment 40°to 50° C drop in temps with by passing the coolant around the t/b in my r34 n/a skyine 👍🍻🇭🇲
I've got a vr6 VW ,and everybody says they just get hot.
I bypassed the throttle body coolant ,and enhanced the stock exhaust manifold heat shield by "gluing" strips of exhaust wrap to it with red/copper rtv.
I even put some along the bottom of the intake where it's above the exhaust manifold.
I had it all apart, it was basically free (I keep a few rolls of wrap around) except the cost of wrap and rtv.
That trick works good ,I learned it from an experimental aircraft builder.
I'm at the point in the video where he's talking about the lizard skin, I have used their sound deadening and it works great. If this stuff looks good for heat, I'm doing that on my interior
Blocking coolant at the throttle body plate is good.....But the Oem added the coolant to heat up the plate in winter cars so the throttle dosnt get stuck open and kill the driver....cool mod but consider the super cold weather
@@jmoore9806nope incorrect it was introduced to get cars to warm up faster and warm the cats up faster to get through ever stringement manufacture emissions requirements
Great video as always DV! Love your content! That Andy is good people as well!
Great video, thanks for sharing, all the best to you and your loved ones
So what were the temp readings at the different points of the original box? What were the temps at the same points with the modified box?
Also, the cardboard will absorb the first product more until cardboard is saturated so needs more hardening agent. Use a non absorbing mixing surface.
JB Weld has the best temperature transfer properties. I used it when I invented the "Thermoelectric Boost Cooling & Charging System".
I'd be tempted to try adding an aluminium radiator from an old fridge between the fuel tank and engine, have it in an insulated box. Few bags of ice dumped in there.
IIRC the main ingredient in Lizard Skin is latex paint. So the adhesion properties should be similar.
Thank you sir very impressive knowledge you pass on Bravo
There's a product made by Klean Strip called "bulldog paint adhesion promoter". It might help in making the bond of different materials stick on your project box.
I'm not sure if the air spends enough time in the air box to warm much? As long as you are feeding the intake system with ambient air it should be good while running. I could see this helping on hot starts like at a gas station.
I normally use a heat gun to dry and speed up the vht wrinkle pain process. I haven't had any failures yet.
Adhering to plastic can be tricky. Cleaning with solvents helps a lot. I’ve also never liked mixing on cardboard. If there’s a spec I always mix in a cup by weight and get good results. By volume in a cup is better, too, than on cardboard. 3M makes a nice line of adhesives called Scotch-Weld. Check them out.
Have you considered running a boat bilge blower across the outside of the filter housing? You could potentially turn it off/on with a thermostat.
It seems to me that it would be a better outcome if the finish was reflective (to address the radiant heat energy) rather than a dark coating.
l have all of your books. They're great!
Good deal guys!!!
The focus on the instulation seems like barking up the wrong tree to me. The amount of heat exchanged from the box and tube to the air seems like it would be insignificant to me with the speed of the airflow through those volumes.
You may change your mind if you test your own vehicle. Years ago I used a cheap indoor outdoor digital thermometer to test the stock air box on an na car. I cut away the plastic covering the thermocouple probe which gave an immediate response to temp changes (no insulation on the probe). I fed the lead down the intake system and went for a drive. I saw an immediate spike in temp when accelerating fro cruise. I used the probe to find a cool spot to use for a modified air pickup location. Also used a no cost self made water manometer to test air restriction with great results. Car was a 1.5 litre daihatsu charade. Made some worthwhile mods with induction, cat back exhaust, premium unleaded fuel and advanced ignition timing. Testing showed there was no point changing from the factory paper air filter, but flow was absolutely strangled at the stock entry point, which I changed.
Moral of the story - by testing yourself you can see what the car really needs. People are always trying to sell you something that you may not need. Total cost of testing under $15 for the thermometer. Add a stopwatch and time yourself between telegraph poles as you make changes.
@@johnhunt6992 So it was sucking in hot air? No argument there, if it's sucking hot air that's no good. But that temperature isn't exchanging through the duct, it's merely hot air being drawn in from the radiator etc. Not the case in the ecoboost here as it has a direct duct to the front of the car.
Yes standard entry point is above the headlight, forward facing in a high pressure area. The air box is copping the immediate temp rise from the cooling system and exhaust. I noticed someone else's comment that David has found there can Be a flow reversal of air at high speed from the grill area. I haven't seen that video or book but l know air can do the unexpected from my interest in air cooled cars and aeroplanes.
Check the salvage yards for the airbox
Dunno but I can't stop thinking that having the filter box in the engine compartment isn't the best place. Saab didn't place them in front of the wheel well on the 9000 and 9-5 only for space saving I guess.
Thanks for the information about the Saab filter box!
I run a diy dual intake on my ecoboost mustang, same location, and I pull the air from my bottom grille.
I was starting to have 2nd thoughts, concerning my setup... but if it's good enough for Saab, then it's good enough for me!!
@@donhelms8358 just to be certain, you placed it also on the outside of the engine bay?
Yes! Mine are located in front of the wheel well, outside of the engine compartment and I feed them both with fresh air from the bottom grille.
PS: Based on information shared from a S550 Mustang wind tunnel test, the highest amount of available air is at the bottom grille, not the top grille location of the OEM filter box.
Maybe construct it like a thermos. Just a simple air gap and reflective tape on the inside facing out.
Those Ecoboost Mustangs are stupid fast! I can’t imagine what the V8 DOHC would do.
I don't know much about plastics, but where appropriate solvent adhesives are amazing. FWIW "Mike Patey" another RUclipsr that does a lot with aircraft does a lot of carbon fibre forming, he uses some sort of polystyrene spheres to pad out layers for structural reasons, Maybe something similar might have merit?
Mike Patey , definitely world class ,,, !
DV! Another great video! Any advice for those of us with a tunnel ram as far as airbox/ ram air goes?
Gkueing plastic, use propane torch, hold about 5 to 8 " away and sear the outside, doesn't take much. Then glue/
5:29 118-96=22
14:13 Any thermal testing video before the coating was applied?
Have you compared your charge temperatures (mapt sensor ) and engine timing, vs launch RPM?
PS: Congratulations on your progress!
Great info
Can you leave a gap between the balsa wood and the plastic ? Like a Thermos?
I wonder if there is anything you can change about the inside of the airbox. Most factory airboxes have these square channels that I assume are there to cut down on noise. I wonder if filling those in with epoxy are cutting them out all together would improve air flow...
Fyi it's well known that 2 part liquid epoxies like jb weld don't like heat. Says so on the package.
It also takes 24 hours to fully set, says so on the package fyi the 5 minute thing is really just another advertising lie.
Isn't better to lower charge (fuel) temp and increase intake temp?
So best atomization and vaporization is gotten without wet flow and full atomization particles from plenum to cylinder mixture flowing?
Fan on the intercooler ? Would that work for the drag racing
Curious what the temp difference between old and new at the throttle body entrance, after its gone through the turbo and intercooler.
Try some Qbond it sticks anything together
If you open the lid between rounds wouldn't that help the box disapate heat quicker?
are there any color plastic that is cooler than all the other colors?
what about keeping a stock box to use for driving to track and the modded one for racing and take it off between rounds for cooling
15:22 Did you use a heat gun to dry it? If not it just lay there. 19:42 Would ceramic coating inside and out work?
Super glue and baking soda works pretty good. Plenty of you tube videos on it.
Glueing plastic is a crap shoot. Have to have the correct glue for the breed of plastic, and finding out what breed the parent is seems to be half futile.
What about mylar or reflective tape
6 gears in the eighth. 😲😲😲😎
will it work on the intake manifold
What engine is this ?
The stock intercooler is getting killed by the heatsoak and should really be replaced, it's horrible and will give you better consistancy run to run.
Why use glue when you can weld plastic easily all u need is a cheap walmart soldering iron and some fine brass screen for strength
@@r3tr0sp3ct3r nah ive been doing it for years lol jk yea i put a good air mover and a covid mask
Did he do a bigger (deeper) airbox with the original as a mould?
I think what you saw, that made you think that, was the under side of the two halves of the stock airbox. When you web-search for images of the stock airbox, the bottom "half" is at least twice as deep as the top cover.
@@chrstphrrYes; I know the difference between the halves. So, he didnt cut the bottom out, but just put another thick layer of material over the bottom end exterior?
What about leaving the inside with that lizard skin and the outside with a chrome finish?
try 2 part epoxy , I use it on everyihing
Okay, what's "HI FUNCTION".? and why is noone using Electronic Cooling.?
I build LSR engines down here in Australia, where operation temperature windows are Critical, not just for max' power, but MTBF also.
To the Ausseis out there. Air temperature control of the engine bay IS street legal. Its been in use since 1959. They will have to change legislation to stop U's Outback Outlaws...
Don't forget ya thongs Paulie..
fundamental contradiction you are violating cross sectional area to the internal dimension
I still think that you could have built your own with a CAD program and then sent what you had to someone with a 3D printer🤷♀️.
Just put a good cowl induction and be done.
David has covered these and they only draw in air till about 50/60 mph then air entering the engine compartment reverses the air flow and it becomes an exit for the engine compartment air,the cowl area is a very low air pressure area so not very effective tbh, at the very front of the car around 12" from the ground is nearly the best high pressure area for air induction
@@ANDYblacks13 I guess that's why nascar uses it at 200mph.
I hope this is an actual instructional video and not another video about future events and intentions.
Womp womp
If you have patience you will find out by watching to the end!
DV
@@DavidVizardhow about that foil bubble blanket stuff wrapped on the inside of your air box , maybe the bubbles will move the air faster ? Great stuff David ! 👍😎
Have you forgotten about your daughter? What about the 318?
Are you monitoring the air temps via the in built gauge in the car or are you using a Cobb Access Port or some other tuner? The reason I ask is the factory gauge is the air intake temps BEFORE it goes into the turbo. After it comes out of the turbo and runs through the intercooler there is a substantial difference.