The problem with official documents translating in other than the native language is that it must hold from a judicial standpoint. Only special certified translators could do that and there are but so much, especially if the language is not so frequently spoken. From a standard civil servant, how educated he might be in his native laws you can not expect the right translations and the one saying that he could not help you is aware of the pitfalls of a sloppy translation if he tried.
Both our courts and COA works with translators. And an online form only needs to be translated once. After that it's just keeping them up to date. Translating documents is not rocket science and can prevent a lot of problems with foreigners.
@@YoChocoTube Translating is as much rocket science as it gets: translator is a serious occupation and official translators are as such sworn in in court and recorded in a register.
@@Roel_Scoot I know about the translators - I've worked with them. And unfortunately the standard isn't as high as you think; I've had several conversations where I had to cut off the translator, because he or she was getting into a conversation with the person I was talking with instead of just translating. Translators used in courts, etc. are not of the same caliber as used in EU or UN meetings. And it's not as intensive of a job as you make it; the translations can be done in in the discussed areas where multilingual legal procedures are already common. Long live the internet. And again; we're mostly talking forms here. If the forms are taken care of, most of the questions already will be answered.
There are 5000 languages in the world. Strongly doubt that every legal document is translated in each of them in any country. For buying a house or other real estate the contract is individual, specific for that property, with a lot of legal ins and outs, and conditions. That is why a 'notaris', a lawyer under oath with official status, makes this contract. With the obligation that all conditions and legal aspects of previous contracts are included. All your rights, but also obligations, should be included. This contract, in Dutch, is the only one that is legal. In case of any conflict, courts and judges on all levels, from local to ECJ will only take that document as legal base. Therefor translations are in fact useless. General information from the Dutch government is available in a lot of languages, but always under condition that the Dutch text is leading and translations are only informative, not legal. Wanting to be served in your culture, language and ideology in another country, is called exceptionalism. USA and UK citizens are really good at it, but you are not the center of the universe.
In a different country U have different custom or culture, language, diets. habits etc. that a person must obliged to become accepted. That is why i never go to a nudist colony, because I get cold very easily.
I think the government should have english translations for non dutch speakers but the government should also promote and encourage people to learn dutch to help them integrate better in society. Also the national government should fund/allow us to teach the regional language in schools. It saddens me to see my language (Nedersaksisch) decline so rapidly. And the local government doen’t have the money.
That’s really sad your language is declining. Why does the government not allow/fund teaching it? Especially if Wikipedia is correct is saying “Netherlands indicate that they are making an effort to preserve and promote nedersaksich, but this is not legally enforceable.”
@@knowingthenetherlands662 “making an effort” in this case means the government allows municipalities to set up projects without funding them. Meanwhile municipalities don’t have the budget to do so.
That's why you learn Dutch at the Inburgerscursus. We did learn as country from the other foreingers, who didn't never speak Dutch and they never intergrade. Dutch is not an Alien language for english speakers, when you put energy in it, so we put energy in english, you should learn the language quick enough.
@@knowingthenetherlands662 I did have english on school, but the most english I did learn on english sites on the internet. You can use google translate for difficult words. It will take time, and maybe it's not a pleasure job, but you will learn from it. It also comes across as an DramaQueen to complain about so many things, you knew language in The Netherlands is Dutch, before you came.
We never put energy in English. It's just a lesson in schools here and kids pick it up of tv and internet. Comparing English for Dutch speakers to Dutch for English speakers is not coming across understanding how easy it is for the Dutch to understand English. We've had it around all of our lives.
So, basically, what your research shows is that most European countries you checked _don't_ do it to a huge extent, though some provide some level of service. I think Belgium can be discounted as a counterexample because French, Dutch and German are already the official languages spoken by parts of the native population (even though the German speaking part is small). I'll admit I hadn't expected the UK to provide service in other languages. Outside Europe, I can't really judge South Korea, but I guess there's a huge American influence there, given the tense situation with North Korea and proxies. Australia does it too, which of course was an immigrant nation, just like the U.S.A. I always thought the Dutch government provided translations of many documents in English and I am a bit surprised that this isn't the case in many circumstances? They do so to some extent for people with Arabic or Turkish backgrounds, though. Perhaps the reasoning is that the language gap with English is smaller and that most people coming here speaking English are highly educated so should have less trouble learning our language? (I don't know, just guessing). But I agree it wouldn't hurt to provide translations of most documents in English. Except, of course, it would cost _money_ which always is a sensitive topic with us Dutch :) As for actual contracts, that may be a different story. Even if you'd translate a contract into English, there may be no exact rendition possible, simply because English and Dutch juridical concepts don't necessarily overlap exactly- our systems stem from juridical traditions with fundamentally different influences (though I don't know how much this would matter in, say, a contract for buying a house- I'm certainly no expert). So, even if you were to translate the contract, it might not have legal validity, or only have legal validity under the constraints that the concepts expressed in it should be interpreted in the 'Dutch' juridical way, and that no rights could be derived from the _English_ juridical conception of the terms used in case of concepts that don't quite overlap.
Just a few remarks on the subject. Even many native Dutch have problems reading official papers and forms. Legal texts and forms are seldom easy to understand or readily digestable. They contain legal jargon and always concern a general situation, never a specific one so you have to be able to think in abstract terms. Not everyone is capable, let alone good at that. As long as I live there have been attempts by the government to combat this specific form of illiteracy. And it never succeeds or only for a very short time. So what you are actually asking is the government to be willing to magnify an existing problem to the Nth power by translating that problem to all foreign languages. I say all foreign languages, because on what general priciple would you help english-speakers and not for example French-speakers. There would be no end to it. Non-dutch-speakers in the Netherlands have no right to translations. They are here of their own volition and if things are too rough or complicated for them they may choose to leave. If however they want to stay, they have to make an "Inburgeringsexamen". One part of that exam is demonstrating a certain level of languageskills in Dutch. With that you still have no right to a translation, but also no need anymore. (At least less of it, even if you are functionally illiterate.) I am no legal expert, although I have had experience with legalese. But I am certain that I have not even scratched the surface of this subject. It goes way, way deeper than you might think. I have only one consolation for you, which is an English saying, "The law may baffle reason, but reason may never baffle the law."
" On what general principle would you help english-speakers and not for example French-speakers. " Let me help you with that; There are 3 Dutch municipalities that already have English as an official language beside Dutch, as well as 1 other country. All part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And guess what; the " inburgeringsexamen " for foreigners living there wanting a Dutch passport includes the same level of language, not just for Dutch, but also for English. Hope that answers your question.
@@YoChocoTube Although you don't deliver on the general principle, you do make a good point. I'll have to think this one through. Unfortunately in the meantime it does nothing for the problem I mentioned.
@@clusterpain2000 You mentioned several things, I'll try to tackle a few: Legal terms. They can be explained in 'normal' language. Judges and lawyers do it every day. Maybe it's time to translate our lawbooks to that normal language. Laws and regulations are there to serve the people, not the other way around. Somewhere down the line our lawmakers forgot that. What about adding a link to all the digital forms and pages that are somehow linked to our government (local and national)? Just so you can leave a comment on how easy or hard it was to understand it. Make sure it's collected at a central point that keeps track of the number of reactions ánd number of users would give a clear picture of what needs to change. Simplified Dutch = simplified English for translation. And you only have to make a first good translation. After that it's a matter of keeping it up to date. And I'm sure that a lot of public legal forms are translated every day by official translators. Some documents even more than once into the same language. Set up a system for official translators - so they can offer the translation for public service. Against a fee. There are plenty of options to make it easy and fast. It's time to make a start. But never tell me Belgium can do three languages and we can't. I don't buy that.
I read your links. First of all, Belgian is a three language speaking country. French, Dutch and German are the official languages of Belgium. . I read the U.S info you show. It seems to be highcourt rulings. I think the main difference is that America , Australia , etc are ' immigrant nations' so i guess it makes more sense ? . ( And let's face it, South Korea is a semi- U.S colony ) Now about Europe: (The French one made me laugh, because it wasn't available...That's as French as it gets ;) And I know in Italy, they will laugh out loud, if you even ask a civil servant if they can speak English. And the U.K tells you to ásk a friend' . I understand you better now. Yes standard forms could be done in English. I thought you was talking about personal documentation that needed translation. Notary laws are..Well laws. Buying homes, and legal documents are required in Dutch. And made up by a notary, even for 'us' Dutch people. It sucks, but so be it.
It should be the same for us - we may not be the biggest immigrant country, but we do have former colonies still being part of the King of the Netherlands. And being officially bi lingual. Not accommodating those Dutchies - they are Dutch, is unbelievable to me.
Welcome to Europe, with 26 languages (or thereabouts) on a geographic land mass half of the USA. Since the Schengen treaty everybody in those countries can go freely to another country. So, yeah, we have language problems. It is what it is. It is not possible to translate everything in other languages. This is not only a financial impossibility, but also in legal terms there are some difficulties. There is a lot of fuzz in the EU about different translations meaning different things all the time. And they spend billions of Euros translating documents. There are simply not enough people not speaking Dutch to translate everything. Having said that, I am in favor of translating much non legally binding texts into English. Contracts and laws and regulations need to be in Dutch as long as there is a Dutch state. I had to laugh a little bit about Belgium. Didn't you know that Belgium has German, French and Dutch as official languages? They don't translate anything outside their border. Neither do the Germans, and the French I believe. So, yeah, this is Europe. It is different, because it has a long and bloody tribal history. Maybe things will be different in 500 years.
Where did you get the estimate that it will cost billions of dollars to translate things? Also, what percentage of people need to not speak the native language to make it worth while to translate documents?
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha I believe we had this discussion before; " Contracts and laws and regulations need to be in Dutch as long as there is a Dutch state. " I love this statement. Because it's a big contradiction on your part as the Dutch state is the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And part of our Kingdom already has English as an official language. As long as the title used is " het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden ", we should actually represent het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden - meaning: having all documents in the official languages of our Kingdom. Just like... let's say Belgium. Just to make you laugh a bit more. They don't seem to have a problem to have the paperwork in more than one language, and last time I checked we were doing financially better than them. Us not even having the decency to make documents available in English is arrogant. The Netherlands lives of trade, mostly done in English, we all at least understand a bit of English, can converse a bit in English - advertise how easy it is to adjust here because of the amount of people speaking English... And documents only need to be translated once. After that it's just a matter of keeping them up to date. That is a hell of a lot cheaper than having to hire a translator for every conversation. I can't prove this, but I doubt that the legal contracts the belastingdienst has with multinationals here are in Dutch. What in fact makes us a bunch of hypocrits whining about money - because they all get a tax cut. I also do not believe that the negotiations before signing those papers are done in Dutch. But like I said; I think we had this discussion before. So lets' agree to disagree on this.
@@YoChocoTube As I said, it is all in the numbers. It is just not worth it to translate everything for a small number of people. Besides that, your point about English or Papiamento is not valid, as this is not a Kingdom matter, but a matter of the constiuant countries. If language was a Kingdom matter, the Dutch Carribean would all speak Dutch as a first language. But fortunately we did not have that imperial touch the English had for their colonies. And yes, we agree to disagree.
Hi everyone , I'll try to make it short . When someone live in another country , he/she has to integrate to that country as the country will not integrate to that person individually . And every country always helps their own citizens first , that's their duty , for foreigners , they can go to their consulate to seek help ( consulate's duty to help their citizen ) otherwise they can go to an accountant , or lawyer to do it , but government is not oblige to help non citizen . That's my opinion .
@@leslypianoworld Agreed. It is not for nothing that people have to pass a language exam before being able to apply for citizenship. It is what it is, we can envisage utopia, weher all peoples speak the same language everywhere, but that is not this world.
@@theselecter You know the Antilles have only changed their name, right? They have not left het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden. And also know that in parts of that Papiamento and English are also official languages? And that they also are Dutch citizens? Your 'Dutch by default' presumption doesn't float.
The government only expects foreigners who want to be citizens to have an A2-B1 level of Dutch, that’s not high enough to understand legal forms. The government doesn’t even expect much.
The problem with official documents translating in other than the native language is that it must hold from a judicial standpoint. Only special certified translators could do that and there are but so much, especially if the language is not so frequently spoken. From a standard civil servant, how educated he might be in his native laws you can not expect the right translations and the one saying that he could not help you is aware of the pitfalls of a sloppy translation if he tried.
Yet other countries are capable of such things.
Both our courts and COA works with translators. And an online form only needs to be translated once. After that it's just keeping them up to date. Translating documents is not rocket science and can prevent a lot of problems with foreigners.
@@YoChocoTube Translating is as much rocket science as it gets: translator is a serious occupation and official translators are as such sworn in in court and recorded in a register.
@@Roel_Scoot I know about the translators - I've worked with them.
And unfortunately the standard isn't as high as you think; I've had several conversations where I had to cut off the translator, because he or she was getting into a conversation with the person I was talking with instead of just translating.
Translators used in courts, etc. are not of the same caliber as used in EU or UN meetings.
And it's not as intensive of a job as you make it;
the translations can be done in in the discussed areas where multilingual legal procedures are already common.
Long live the internet.
And again; we're mostly talking forms here. If the forms are taken care of, most of the questions already will be answered.
I think they should.
Here in the UK you can request many official documents in your language of choice and they will send it to you or email it.
With legal status? Very much doubt it.
There are 5000 languages in the world.
Strongly doubt that every legal document is translated in each of them in any country.
For buying a house or other real estate the contract is individual, specific for that property, with a lot of legal ins and outs, and conditions. That is why a 'notaris', a lawyer under oath with official status, makes this contract. With the obligation that all conditions and legal aspects of previous contracts are included. All your rights, but also obligations, should be included.
This contract, in Dutch, is the only one that is legal. In case of any conflict, courts and judges on all levels, from local to ECJ will only take that document as legal base. Therefor translations are in fact useless.
General information from the Dutch government is available in a lot of languages, but always under condition that the Dutch text is leading and translations are only informative, not legal.
Wanting to be served in your culture, language and ideology in another country, is called exceptionalism.
USA and UK citizens are really good at it, but you are not the center of the universe.
You think I could ask for a form in Dutch in the U.S.? Yes, I could ask, but I doubt if I would get it...
In a different country U have different custom or culture, language, diets. habits etc. that a person must obliged to become accepted. That is why i never go to a nudist colony, because I get cold very easily.
I think the government should have english translations for non dutch speakers but the government should also promote and encourage people to learn dutch to help them integrate better in society.
Also the national government should fund/allow us to teach the regional language in schools. It saddens me to see my language (Nedersaksisch) decline so rapidly. And the local government doen’t have the money.
That’s really sad your language is declining. Why does the government not allow/fund teaching it? Especially if Wikipedia is correct is saying “Netherlands indicate that they are making an effort to preserve and promote nedersaksich, but this is not legally enforceable.”
@@knowingthenetherlands662 “making an effort” in this case means the government allows municipalities to set up projects without funding them. Meanwhile municipalities don’t have the budget to do so.
That’s not making an effort, that’s just not stopping it
@@knowingthenetherlands662 precisely…
It often feels like the further away you are from the Hague the less they care about us.
That's why you learn Dutch at the Inburgerscursus. We did learn as country from the other foreingers, who didn't never speak Dutch and they never intergrade.
Dutch is not an Alien language for english speakers, when you put energy in it, so we put energy in english, you should learn the language quick enough.
How long did you study English for? Would you feel comfortable reading and filling out legal documents in English without any help?
@@knowingthenetherlands662 I did have english on school, but the most english I did learn on english sites on the internet.
You can use google translate for difficult words.
It will take time, and maybe it's not a pleasure job, but you will learn from it.
It also comes across as an DramaQueen to complain about so many things, you knew language in The Netherlands is Dutch, before you came.
We never put energy in English. It's just a lesson in schools here and kids pick it up of tv and internet.
Comparing English for Dutch speakers to Dutch for English speakers is not coming across understanding how easy it is for the Dutch to understand English. We've had it around all of our lives.
So, basically, what your research shows is that most European countries you checked _don't_ do it to a huge extent, though some provide some level of service. I think Belgium can be discounted as a counterexample because French, Dutch and German are already the official languages spoken by parts of the native population (even though the German speaking part is small). I'll admit I hadn't expected the UK to provide service in other languages. Outside Europe, I can't really judge South Korea, but I guess there's a huge American influence there, given the tense situation with North Korea and proxies. Australia does it too, which of course was an immigrant nation, just like the U.S.A.
I always thought the Dutch government provided translations of many documents in English and I am a bit surprised that this isn't the case in many circumstances? They do so to some extent for people with Arabic or Turkish backgrounds, though. Perhaps the reasoning is that the language gap with English is smaller and that most people coming here speaking English are highly educated so should have less trouble learning our language? (I don't know, just guessing). But I agree it wouldn't hurt to provide translations of most documents in English. Except, of course, it would cost _money_ which always is a sensitive topic with us Dutch :)
As for actual contracts, that may be a different story. Even if you'd translate a contract into English, there may be no exact rendition possible, simply because English and Dutch juridical concepts don't necessarily overlap exactly- our systems stem from juridical traditions with fundamentally different influences (though I don't know how much this would matter in, say, a contract for buying a house- I'm certainly no expert). So, even if you were to translate the contract, it might not have legal validity, or only have legal validity under the constraints that the concepts expressed in it should be interpreted in the 'Dutch' juridical way, and that no rights could be derived from the _English_ juridical conception of the terms used in case of concepts that don't quite overlap.
Yes Belgium has three official languages, but don"t ask a document in French in Flanders, you will not get it, even if there exists one!
Just a few remarks on the subject.
Even many native Dutch have problems reading official papers and forms. Legal texts and forms are seldom easy to understand or readily digestable. They contain legal jargon and always concern a general situation, never a specific one so you have to be able to think in abstract terms. Not everyone is capable, let alone good at that. As long as I live there have been attempts by the government to combat this specific form of illiteracy. And it never succeeds or only for a very short time. So what you are actually asking is the government to be willing to magnify an existing problem to the Nth power by translating that problem to all foreign languages. I say all foreign languages, because on what general priciple would you help english-speakers and not for example French-speakers. There would be no end to it.
Non-dutch-speakers in the Netherlands have no right to translations. They are here of their own volition and if things are too rough or complicated for them they may choose to leave. If however they want to stay, they have to make an "Inburgeringsexamen". One part of that exam is demonstrating a certain level of languageskills in Dutch. With that you still have no right to a translation, but also no need anymore. (At least less of it, even if you are functionally illiterate.)
I am no legal expert, although I have had experience with legalese. But I am certain that I have not even scratched the surface of this subject. It goes way, way deeper than you might think.
I have only one consolation for you, which is an English saying, "The law may baffle reason, but reason may never baffle the law."
" On what general principle would you help english-speakers and not for example French-speakers. "
Let me help you with that;
There are 3 Dutch municipalities that already have English as an official language beside Dutch, as well as 1 other country.
All part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
And guess what;
the " inburgeringsexamen " for foreigners living there wanting a Dutch passport includes the same level of language, not just for Dutch, but also for English.
Hope that answers your question.
@@YoChocoTube Although you don't deliver on the general principle, you do make a good point. I'll have to think this one through. Unfortunately in the meantime it does nothing for the problem I mentioned.
@@clusterpain2000 You mentioned several things, I'll try to tackle a few:
Legal terms.
They can be explained in 'normal' language. Judges and lawyers do it every day. Maybe it's time to translate our lawbooks to that normal language.
Laws and regulations are there to serve the people, not the other way around.
Somewhere down the line our lawmakers forgot that.
What about adding a link to all the digital forms and pages that are somehow linked to our government (local and national)?
Just so you can leave a comment on how easy or hard it was to understand it.
Make sure it's collected at a central point that keeps track of the number of reactions ánd number of users would give a clear picture of what needs to change.
Simplified Dutch = simplified English for translation.
And you only have to make a first good translation. After that it's a matter of keeping it up to date.
And I'm sure that a lot of public legal forms are translated every day by official translators. Some documents even more than once into the same language.
Set up a system for official translators - so they can offer the translation for public service. Against a fee.
There are plenty of options to make it easy and fast.
It's time to make a start.
But never tell me Belgium can do three languages and we can't.
I don't buy that.
I read your links. First of all, Belgian is a three language speaking country. French, Dutch and German are the official languages of Belgium. . I read the U.S info you show. It seems to be highcourt rulings. I think the main difference is that America , Australia , etc are ' immigrant nations' so i guess it makes more sense ? . ( And let's face it, South Korea is a semi- U.S colony )
Now about Europe: (The French one made me laugh, because it wasn't available...That's as French as it gets ;) And I know in Italy, they will laugh out loud, if you even ask a civil servant if they can speak English. And the U.K tells you to ásk a friend' . I understand you better now. Yes standard forms could be done in English. I thought you was talking about personal documentation that needed translation. Notary laws are..Well laws. Buying homes, and legal documents are required in Dutch. And made up by a notary, even for 'us' Dutch people. It sucks, but so be it.
You mean South-Korea :)
@@Roel_Scoot Ja. haha. Bedankt, zal het ff aanpassen.
It should be the same for us - we may not be the biggest immigrant country, but we do have former colonies still being part of the King of the Netherlands. And being officially bi lingual.
Not accommodating those Dutchies - they are Dutch, is unbelievable to me.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 and English. Both normal to speak in schools, in public and during court sessions.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 depending on which island you are.
I have only a short answer to that question. No.
België heeft volgens mij drie officiële talen. Vandaar dus.
En inwoners die deze talen speken, schrijven, lezen.
Welcome to Europe, with 26 languages (or thereabouts) on a geographic land mass half of the USA. Since the Schengen treaty everybody in those countries can go freely to another country. So, yeah, we have language problems. It is what it is. It is not possible to translate everything in other languages. This is not only a financial impossibility, but also in legal terms there are some difficulties. There is a lot of fuzz in the EU about different translations meaning different things all the time. And they spend billions of Euros translating documents. There are simply not enough people not speaking Dutch to translate everything. Having said that, I am in favor of translating much non legally binding texts into English. Contracts and laws and regulations need to be in Dutch as long as there is a Dutch state. I had to laugh a little bit about Belgium. Didn't you know that Belgium has German, French and Dutch as official languages? They don't translate anything outside their border. Neither do the Germans, and the French I believe. So, yeah, this is Europe. It is different, because it has a long and bloody tribal history. Maybe things will be different in 500 years.
Where did you get the estimate that it will cost billions of dollars to translate things? Also, what percentage of people need to not speak the native language to make it worth while to translate documents?
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
I believe we had this discussion before;
" Contracts and laws and regulations need to be in Dutch as long as there is a Dutch state. "
I love this statement.
Because it's a big contradiction on your part as the Dutch state is the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And part of our Kingdom already has English as an official language.
As long as the title used is " het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden ", we should actually represent het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden - meaning: having all documents in the official languages of our Kingdom. Just like... let's say Belgium. Just to make you laugh a bit more. They don't seem to have a problem to have the paperwork in more than one language, and last time I checked we were doing financially better than them.
Us not even having the decency to make documents available in English is arrogant.
The Netherlands lives of trade, mostly done in English, we all at least understand a bit of English, can converse a bit in English - advertise how easy it is to adjust here because of the amount of people speaking English... And documents only need to be translated once. After that it's just a matter of keeping them up to date.
That is a hell of a lot cheaper than having to hire a translator for every conversation.
I can't prove this, but I doubt that the legal contracts the belastingdienst has with multinationals here are in Dutch. What in fact makes us a bunch of hypocrits whining about money - because they all get a tax cut. I also do not believe that the negotiations before signing those papers are done in Dutch.
But like I said; I think we had this discussion before.
So lets' agree to disagree on this.
@@YoChocoTube As I said, it is all in the numbers. It is just not worth it to translate everything for a small number of people. Besides that, your point about English or Papiamento is not valid, as this is not a Kingdom matter, but a matter of the constiuant countries. If language was a Kingdom matter, the Dutch Carribean would all speak Dutch as a first language. But fortunately we did not have that imperial touch the English had for their colonies. And yes, we agree to disagree.
Hi everyone , I'll try to make it short . When someone live in another country , he/she has to integrate to that country as the country will not integrate to that person individually . And every country always helps their own citizens first , that's their duty , for foreigners , they can go to their consulate to seek help ( consulate's duty to help their citizen ) otherwise they can go to an accountant , or lawyer to do it , but government is not oblige to help non citizen . That's my opinion .
@@leslypianoworld Agreed. It is not for nothing that people have to pass a language exam before being able to apply for citizenship. It is what it is, we can envisage utopia, weher all peoples speak the same language everywhere, but that is not this world.
If the docs are for use of citizens then no, if not then yes.
How would you decide for the citizen and for the government? Voting is mutual.
@@knowingthenetherlands662 a Dutch citizen speaks Dutch by default so no translation needed. Voting is mutual some ways but not all.
@@theselecter You know the Antilles have only changed their name, right? They have not left het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden.
And also know that in parts of that Papiamento and English are also official languages?
And that they also are Dutch citizens?
Your 'Dutch by default' presumption doesn't float.
Live life overhere?
Learn the language!
Nederland doet dit regelmatig. In Turks en ARABISCH. EN ENGELS
Learn the language. Problem solved.
The government only expects foreigners who want to be citizens to have an A2-B1 level of Dutch, that’s not high enough to understand legal forms. The government doesn’t even expect much.
@@knowingthenetherlands662 They should expect more then