ADSB is damn expensive! 💸 Glider Install and Flight Test
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2024
- ADSB. Why install it? How does it work in a glider? How much does it cost? We go over some of the basics and what the Trig gear looks like and how it works. And then do a flight test to check it actually does work. Plus a look at behind the instrument panel of the glider. Exciting stuff. Ask questions in the comments, and we'll do our best to answer.
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00:00 Why ADSB and how much does it cost?
02:53 A look at the gear
04:53 Flight Test
08:00 Engine Test
08:48 A wild landing
09:52 A sneak peak at a new project 
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Great video Tim. The cost is high, but the safety that comes as a result is also quite high!! It has saved my bacon several times already.
Yeah and you never really know when a plane avoids you because of it.
Glad to see you out and about. I fly RC gliders not real ones but still learn a lot from watching. Funny thing is we have to start using a remote id system for RC here soon too.
Another great video, thanks for putting it together!
My pleasure!
Is FLARM common at all in NZ? That is the GA system that is pretty much standard in Europe for gliders. Much less power hungry, cheaper, capable of dealing with gliders thermalling in a gaggle, warns about ground obstacles, but, of course ignored by commercial aviation and ATC.
It sure is but only in gliders. Compulsory for contest flying.
I just have hooked up my Redbox Flarm as a GPS source to my Garrecht transponder via a baud converter/filter/splitter to make it ADSB Out capable, no need for the expensive TRIG GPS brick and other thingy beside it.. It is not officially certified, but the ADSB signal does not care about that. I have it working for already about 7 or 8 years like that. At the time I installed my system (did it myself) it was about €1500. I have a Dolba antenna inside the cockpit near my feet, a flight test confirmed it works very well.
In Europe the transponder is not really mandatory, but there are so many airspaces that are TMZ's these days that cross country flying without a transponder is impossible. So almost all gliders have a transponder these days, either the Trig like you have or the Garrecht like I have, but ADSB out is not mandatory (yet).
That’s great! I do wonder if I did that, would our ATC even know?!
Worth every penny
We are going through a similar thing in Europe. I have ADS-B in and out, coupled to my LX9XXX system. Stupid thing is most of our ATC radar systems are not ADS-B capable!
Oh! Yes not nearly as useful if ATC haven't switched to it yet :)
@@PureGlide It's not turned on because they haven't even got it installed!
On the other hand it's fun ( if you haven't set the filters on the Lx right ) to get traffic awareness signals of commercial stuff 40 km away and 30000' above you. More fun to imagine the bored bus driver 40 km away getting a heads up on his glass screen to your lowly presence! :)
Simply stated, ADS-B out standard was written by people who do not understand radio. They guessed at 150W/250W TX power assuming that packet radio communications at near 1GHZ needs any real amount of power to get to horizon at 250miles and 40k feet. Today the standard would have been written with bog simple 5G chipsets and be in a 15W transmitter with top and bottom hemispheres and the cost would be near nothing and about the same for the paper with it.
The unmanned drone community under 20kg would rather use ADS-B with a TX power of about 2 to 10 watts than the mess that is just now on the market.
Drone pilots use receive only ads-b so we can see manned aircraft and get out of the way
Yeah that’s a good advantage I forgot to mention
Great Videos! Love the Accent!
Thanks! 😃
Mine cost $6.5k all up for my microlight (out and in). I received $3k back from the govt, and sold the old transponder for $500 to a guy in the US - so $3k all up
Nice work. Would be nice if we didn't have to buy certified for the gliders in NZ...
Well done!☘️👍
Thanks!
Not related to ADS-B but it's always lovely seeing matamata airfield. I've got fond memories from Walsh years ago. I think I should come back and do some gliding at some point too. Does ADS-B broadcast at 250w constantly or does it scale the power or transmit intermittently to save power?
Only the short moment it broadcasts thankfully for our batteries!
I am not sure what is approved and not in NZ, BUT i just installed a uAvionix AV30 with TailbeaconX transponder and ADSB out. Cost me half of that in hardware, but in US$, and my beacon is going in right wingtip, 10m away from me. I asked about putting it where you did, and manufacturer's engineer said he would not do that. Running a test yesterday, I could feel the heat from 20cm away as my hand was being microwaved.
Yeah we don’t want the drag from one of them!
I have the same setup in my Discus 2b.
Awesome, seems to work!
Excellent talk through of ADSB. It’s a bit like covid, spreading over the globe and people are quite sick of it. Still, safety first. No one liked F1’s Halo, but time served, no one would be without it now. Have to say, was a little disappointed at the end, not seeing covers, tie down and whether the weather beat you.🌦☔ Great straight to the point and informative video. 🏆
Thanks! Yeah I actually like the tracking aspect of it, and not for safety - but that's a story for another video!
Oh yeah and sorry I had to rush to get it covered before the rain, so didn't have time to film it. Rest assured it was all covered up and tied down before the rain arrived :)
Australia is doing $5000 but no mandate to upgrade yet for controlled airspace. IFR needs it though
Wow $5000 would be very nice
250 Watts? bro that's a hell of RF power and especially in microwave bands. That's really overkilled... 1 to 5 watts is optimal TX power for microwave transmitters, especially in the air on some flying devices...
I don’t know exactly what the 250w means, it’s the measured peak output or something. No idea, it’s a trig transponder if you want to look up the specs
Yes, but worth it!! 😁
Yeah I think so too :)
Can you give us a little more info on the antenna mounting? I’m considering an installation on a Blanik L-23, in USA.
Hi not much to it really for the GPS antenna, just a piece of aluminium to hold it behind the panel in a clear spot. The GPS does have to be at least 1m away from the radio antenna and the transponder antenna. My actual transponder antenna is mounted in the fuselage near the gear. But keep in mind I've got a fibreglass glider, so radio works through it. If you have metal or carbon fibre you need an external mount. Hope that helps! Talk to your glider engineer I suggest
Honoured to be featured in another video as wing runner!!
Yes we’ll have you RUclips famous in no time!
Interesting and informative butt you didnt mention FLARM. Does this replace FLARM ot do you still keep that?
Yeah that's a whole separate video! One I want to do soon. The TLDR version:
- No an ADSB transponder does not replace FLARM. It only replaces a non ADSB Transponders. They only broadcast your location.
- ADSB-IN data can be fed into FLARM.
- FLARM is your collision alerting tool. i.e. it's a glider's version of TCAS (kinda)
- FLARM displays or LX9000s can show where both FLARM and ADSB targets are.
Hey Tim, thanks for the ADS-B tour of your panel. Transport Canada is making the same noises about implementing ADS-B into GA aircraft.
I recently purchased a SGS 1-35, installed FLARM, and scoping out ADS-B as well.
I take it that you chose Trig for its size. Was the Trig installation also the best price point?
Thx.
As mentioned the trig system was the only glider suitable ADSB system that satisfies the NZ requirements. The only other option was to installed a normal plane sized unit eg a garmin. The install price was pretty typical, we have to get an approved engineer to do it. Luckily glider engineers were approved (finally).
AFAIK, in Canada gliders will be exempted, just like they have been for Mode-C, but that's only for Class C airspace. Here in the flatlands and weak conditions of eastern Ontario, we're not worried about being above 12500'.
@@davesgliding Hi Dave, we have been exempted for use in Class C in the past. I’m thinking of wave flying next fall in LKP, and having ADB-B available in YOW and YUL Class C will make it easier to transit.
Hope all is well!
Doug
@@CLdriver1960 ATC will still only clear us across certain portions of Class C anyway, simply because we can't maintain a consistent FL. They will give us a FL and below, but that FL needs to be lower and lower the closer we are to the airport, which takes us out of the workable band anyway. While I agree that it would open up more Class C to you, I'm not sure how much of a transit window to the south it would open up for YOW.
@@davesgliding The inability for ATC to identify a non-transponder aircraft is the issue. One of our club members does have Mode C and does get clearance into Class C more easily than I do. To your point, not maintaining a constant altitude does make for a higher workload on the controller, as does our ‘erratic’ course changes (ie hunting for thermals).
If I may ask. Do you have an electrical system with your engine? Is that what powers your ADS-B equipment? Thanks!
Hi, no the engine doesn't have an electrical system, as it's only used very briefly, if at all. Instead we have batteries to run the avionics. A single 9Ah lithium battery will run a glider for a whole day happily, even with the transponder on. I have 2 batteries, one 12Ah + 20Ah, giving me 32Ah total :)
Wow, are we looking behind the panel of the Space Shuttle, or Tim’s glider?! 😋
You have a LOT of electronics there now, Tim. Can the old battery still keep up with all of that?
And what about the CG, had to add weight to the tail? 😁
😁 not too much weight added lol
Looks neat - though the GPS antenna is rather large as you say. Is it not an option to use Sky Echo 2 in NZ? (ADS-B out, but no changeable squawk code). Its encouraging to hear that NZ authorities have said all to have ADSB out by a date. In the UK, no such mandated requirement and people are using a real mix of conspicuity kit - GA using mode A/C/S transponders, or none, and Flarm, Pilot Aware or SE2 for air to air conspicuity - though Pilot Aware cannot be seen by non PA receivers, the users seem to like it as it sort of gets Mode C/S (on repeat from ground stations primarily). I have SE2, which goes with me from one aircraft to another (being self contained and tiny) esp where we have no other ADS-B out - with Sky Demon, we can see its ADSB in and Flarm returns, through the box.
Yeah only a certified transponder allows entry into controlled airspace in NZ. If you don’t ever fly into controlled airspace then any of the devices are fine!
I realize this is a video about ADS-B, but after looking in your panel, I have a weird question. What's that fluffy cat fur you have on the air vent, seen at the lower left corner of the screen at 3:58. Is that standard issue, or did you install that yourself? I guess it's to cut down on the vent noise?
Hi yeah exactly, it's very common to make the vents quieter. Not sure if it's standard or not, I suspect not. But it works well.
250W transmitter seem like over kill in a glider. Just guessing but the range must be thousand of kilometers.
Yeah it likely is
wait, you need extra suff for the ADS-B out system? I thought the transponder included it. now i'm really confused. What about ADS-B IN system? what do i need for that?
Well, ADSB-In is a whole other ball game. It depends what you want to display the other ADSB aircraft. If you have a glider with FLARM, then you really want to feed ADSB data into that. If you're a power pilot with an iPad, then one of the portable ADSB receivers would be a good way to go.
You can still buy non-adsb transponders. ADSB is essentially just adding GPS positioning to the transponder system. Many units e.g. from Garmin are all in one. This Trig system has the components separate as I show. But yes it is confusing figuring out what to get, best to talk to an avionics engineer.
@@PureGlide i for sure bought the ADS-B transponder, but my question was if that comes with the GPS antena and module included, or do i have to buy them separatly.
You can buy them all in a combined package.
250W transponder. Crikey, that seems like a lot for modern electronics. How big is your battery and how long does it last?
That’s a peak wattage, ie only a short burst when it sends the message. A normal 9Ah lithium iron phosphate glider battery will run it for a full flight. I have 32Ah total :)
@@PureGlide I should hope it is a very low duty cycle! Part of my job involves calculating and modelling non-ionising radiation hazards for personnel (HERP). I can assure you spending a long time about a metre or so from a 1 GHz, 250 W CW antenna is not within ICNIRP limits!
On the plus side you could always hack-it into a nice heater for the winter... ;)
Interesting stuff Tim. Are you hooking into the OGN with PureTrack?
Sure am, OGN and ADSBHub, along with a number of other things! Got a spare Raspberry pi sitting around? We could use more ADSBHub antennas around NZ! There are only a few…
@@PureGlide No problem... I've already got a FLARM receiver hooked to OGN so adding an ADSB one won't be a problem. Note that we also run an ADSB alarm at the airfield when we're flying models so that alerts us to approaching (ADSB-equipped) aircraft. Safety first!
Yeah that’s great re your site alarm, now you’ll see me coming 😂.
4:18. what's the fuel filter for?
Hi it's an air filter, on the pitot port. I believe it slows down the pitot and removes gusts? not actually sure!
here in USA, if you have an “experimental” glider you can use the much cheaper ADS-B out gps unit. No, it doesn’t make any sense at all.
Yes the US is quite different! Can you fly to any altitude if you have the cheaper ADSB units?
@@PureGlide In the US, for that it comes down to the selection of the 978 MHz or 1090 MHz extended squitter version. 1090ES is required for use above 18,000ft.
The 978 is also called the Universal Access Transmitter (UAT) and provides free services, such as graphical weather and traffic information for ADS-B In-equipped aircraft. However, it's NOT the international standard as the US always finds a way to complicate things that way.
Since I want to be able to fly above 18,000 in a wave window somewhere I have the Trig TT22 (high power) transponder and the TN72 GPS(only good for "experimental" ships)
In a wave flight might the ground speed fall below 30 knots?
He's detecting Airspeed not groundspeed, using the total pressure from the ASI probe.
Don't worry I'll still be trying
How many watts etc is this thing. The real question I'm asking is how dangerous is this for the pilots - radiation etc and you are at close range for long time periods.
250watts peak, only for a short burst when it sends a message. I used to have the antenna under my seat. It’s now moved further back which makes me feel better about it :)
@@PureGlide oVER HERE IN sYDNEY .... BACK IN THE 90'S. tHE PLOICE SURVELLENCE SQUAD WERE ALL SUEING THE FORCE/STATE FOR HEALTH ISSUES. fULL OF TUMOURS, COULD TELL/FEEL IT WHEN SOMEONE TURNED A RADIO ON, EVEN IN ANOTHER ROOM [ shit I just looked up and notice caps lock on - sorry ] It's not conspirancy crap or etc, it's no joke. You should see how the yank corps used a human giant etc to set safety for radar/microwave/mobile phones and no one considered tablets, they didn't exist and babies and kids use them at point blank range. Nobel winning scientist on YT says there is no safe way to carry a phone, a chick tucked one in her bra 4 hours a day for ten years, had to cut her tit off, imagine the damage to men and it takes years. Top pocket heart. Could the antenna be mounted in or on top of the tail???
Why do not step forward with powerflarm instead?
Hi I have powerflarm in my LX9050. Cheers!
@@PureGlide i mean in general: there are any advantages/benefits to use ADSB instead of powerflarm? In italy, may be europe, flarm is mandatory, but i do not know ADSB for this reason i was asking. I understood powerflarm already has ADSB inside
I’m going to make another video about flarm, powerflarm and ADSB, stay tuned
Within aviation safety is first. The idea you have to pay $8000+ to be safe and legal. The question what if you have a plane and cannot afford the ADSB.
In NZ if you don’t have ADSB then you can’t go into controlled airspace. But many people never do. So not everyone will upgrade. Depends where you are too. Some clubs are IN controlled airspace, so have to upgrade.
Dan Gryder probable cause, and Blancolirio channels
Both excellent channels!
Damn. I fitted the marine version of this to my boat and it was about $1000 !
Yeah slap the word 'certified' and 'aircraft' on it, and multiple the price x 6! It is essentially the same system in the boating world.
Can't afford a haircut after shelling out for that jumped-up Satnav?
Nope! haha
I already have TWO GPS antennas in my glider. Why are gliders and other GA required to have centimetre accuracy for ADS-B. We will never be in situations where separating wingtips on adjacent taxiways will ever be a concern.
Yip it’s a bit mad!
Are these available in USA ? R they being used here. ? Application will be a trike. I’m designing a sexy panel like your gliders. Mate u sure have lit a fire 🔥 under my ass and inspired me so much. I’m starting a soaring flight academy in Boise Idaho in 2024. Super excited. Light sport CFI with float add on. And weight shift control I’d love to add gliders and power gliders to do fun xc. And research different edf. And engines.
yeah all the glider equipment is available in the US, ADSB, Canopy Flashers etc Check wingsandwheels or Cumulus soaring for gear
@@PureGlide awesome mate. Thank u
So let me get this straight. GLIDERS have to install ADS-B but your police helicopters can turn their transponders off and that's A-OK? You guys are nuts.
Anyone can turn their transponders off...
Howzit Tim, Im from South Africa and have been loving your content. I recently started a sim gliding channel in hopes of getting monetized to hopefully jump into the realdeal in the future. 😅
A shoutout to grow my channel would be epic. Hustling my way in the pilot seat. 🤣
Hi welcome! Good luck with your channel :)
Thanks Tim 💪💪
Can hear the interference on the mic!!
Hi I didn't notice, when exactly?
Gee, 10,000 bucks. Not cheap at all.
Nope it sure wasnt
Ridiculously overpriced!
Yip
Well in the states, ADSB is not required in gliders, even in Class A, B or C.....also, it makes big brother to watch you closer!!!!!!!! I recommend to all USA gliders, do not gte it!
Ok , now have an alert for you on Flightradar24 , let see if it works 😃🍻
Excellent, aiming to fly tomorrow!
@@PureGlide I did get an alert , but didn’t notice it at the time , I’m UK based so was probably asleep at the time 😃 when I select playback, it says none available I think this is quite common for private aircraft.
Yes not sure why, someone else had that problem but did manage to get it in the end. And yes we fly while you’re sleeping!
@@PureGlide success today, 3 alerts, 2 tracks available 😃
2500 for install is a huge ripoff, for a couple of hours work. find a new inspector
Yeah that price includes making a wiring loom, and moving my old transponder antenna to a new location, among other things, some of which took longer than expected. Plus that includes parts such as wiring, the air switch and bits and pieces.
The hardest part of the install in a glider is finding space to mount the boxes. Mounting the antenna in the tail can also be difficult. Carbon fiber in the fuselage makes the antenna placement harder. Externally mounted antennas increase drag.