Right Teardrop for Left Downwind. Legal or Illegal? Ride Along on This!
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- Опубликовано: 21 дек 2023
- This is the tenth in a series of AQP ride along videos. This one was filmed in reference to the
traffic pattern operations and avoiding future mid air collisions.
The emphasis of this video is to illustrate what to do, and what NOT to do.
Ride along on this pattern entry and the conversation with another pilot about his descending right hand turn in a left hand traffic pattern.
What is your opinion of the right teardrop for a left downwind arrival?
Watch the full video then let me know what you think!
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Dan, you are correct, and the video shows what you are talking about, but I'm not sure you actually explained the problem in the video: The pattern flown at 5:27 looks a lot like what the FAA recommends, but the actual entry is a bit lazy (not really 45 degrees, more like turning as they merge onto downwind) the PROBLEM WITH THIS is that if you are in a right hand turn you are naturally looking away from the potential traffic that you are merging into coming from your left!!! And if you have not already made your descent to pattern altitude, you are also that much more blind as you merge into downwind. So they ALMOST did it right, but the specific of entering at 45 degrees, and being at pattern altitude is the key.
Exactly. If you’re gonna do it, get well outside and then get at least one minute wings level on the 45 degree leg. This guy stayed in a circle all the way until he rolled out on the downwind leg. That’s a right turn in the pattern and if there had been a Lear 35A in the pattern this is how they would have hit.
1) “Teardrop” is an IFR procedure.
2) Descending while in the vicinity will get you killed.
3) right turns in the vicinity are illegal via the FAR.
In the aircraft example included - I specifically asked him if he was turning right “in the pattern” and “descending in the pattern.” He replied “That is correct.”
You can’t descend and turn right in the pattern. He was never wings level on the 45 at any time.
That's the part that bothers me about this 'pattern entry' I imagine every pilot that uses this does it a little different, and some will try to do it in a tight circle, close to the pattern. We old and slow pilots have enough stuff to worry about as it is.
Dan, I have to share, my son-in-law finished pilot school this week. We are so proud of him! He immigrated from Russia at 16 with $50 in his pocket on a tennis scholarship and became a legal citizen. I’ve shared your channel with him. He’s considering different options of job opportunities but I was shocked to see how much Fed Ex pays.
I appreciate the videos Dan. I believe you have this one wrong though. Overflying midfield 1000’ above pattern, flying clear of traffic pattern by 2 miles then starting a descending right turn is by far the safest way to enter the pattern. The airplane flying handbook also agrees. Chapter 8 Figure 3. We don’t call it a teardrop either since teardrop is an instrument maneuver. Come to a flight school that does 70+ flights a day and sometimes has 5-6 people in the pattern, people on the 45, people shooting approaches from both ends and people over flying midfield and you’ll see that overflying for the 45 is the only safe way to operate in the pattern of a busy non towered field.
For sure!
Yes. It was always the accepted procedure. The PIC really makes me nervous here. He’s behind the plane without a clear plan and doesn’t adapt to the traffic. Ugh. He butts into the pattern rather than coming into the flow. Really bad. He forces the downwind to do that 360. Dan is really pointing the finger the 180 direction here.
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 1k gives you a buffer from students flying off altitudes and the added time gives more situational awareness as you get into the pattern flow. So I’m in the school of around 1K works at uncontrolled busy airports.
@@CFITOMAHAWK2piston aircraft traffic pattern altitude is 1,000AGL.
since I fly a turbine my pattern altitude is 1,500 AGL, I really feel like Piston aircraft overlflying midfield at 1,500 AGL always causes me a bit of concern. I’ve had Piston aircraft with CFI in the right seat flying straight towards my wing when im established in the pattern and they’re flying at their supposedly safe 500’ above the pattern altitude.
Just a thought
As someone that lives at a residential Airpark without a tower, I get to watch serious buffoonery entering the traffic pattern , particularly by the flight students out of Houston that do engine out procedures above our airport without making an announcement on CTAF.
THIS maneuver is meant to be executed outside of the traffic pattern and if done according to the FAA advisory circular, it would allow a pilot to enter the left downwind on a 45 deg angle.
You don’t make the teardrop turn into the traffic pattern… You fly out 2 or 3 miles… make the turn… and fly back to the airport and enter 45 degrees to the downwind… or upwind… Whichever the case may be… Descending into the pattern is a good way to drop on top of another aircraft regardless of the direction you turn
This question comes up all the time with my private and commercial students. As I do with them, I refer everyone here to the Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (FAA-H-8083-25C) pages 14-2 thru 14-4. A right teardrop turn to the left 45 degree entry to the left downwind is not illegal if flown as described in the handbook. The key is you must fly well clear of the traffic pattern to complete your descending right teardrop and not descend into traffic at pattern altitude who is already established on the 45 degree leg to the left downwind. Additionally, you must be at pattern altitude before entering the 45 degree leg to the left downwind leg. The mistake I see a lot is pilots who fly the descending teardrop directly over and into the 45 degree leg.
That being said, I teach all of my students to disregard the descending teardrop option and instead use the direct downwind option as depicted in figure 14-3 on page 14-4.
Greetings Dan! This is a topic I make sure to teach my students and it's so easy to loose sight of what's right and what everyone else is doing. I provide both documentation and in air instruction to ensure my students are able to remain safe. From the Airplane Flying Handbook pg8-4 "One method of entry from the opposite side of the pattern is to announce intentions and cross over midfield at east 500 feet above pattern altitude (normally 1,500 feet AGL). However, if large or turbine aircraft operate at the airport, it is best to remain 2,000 feet AGL so as not to conflict with their traffic pattern. When well clear of the pattern-approximately 2 miles-the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield." You cross midfield at leas 500' above pattern altitude(traffic permitting), leave the pattern area(approximately 2mi) then descend to pattern altitude, then and only then make the turn inbound at 45° to the down wind, keeping in contact with local traffic on the radio and also keeping a visual scan for traffic not on the radio.
This is pretty much how we did it instructing for JAL,ANA, and Lufthansa in Bonanzas. We crossed over 1000 over TPA, after 30 sec. started descent, after another 30 sec. turned to landing runway heading for 1 minute, leveled at TPA then turned 135 degrees to enter downwind at 45 degree entry. Works great, and safe.
It seems as if most Jets and turboprops don’t abide by these rules. They would rather do a straight-in approach
Why would you descend to pattern altitude and then execute the right turn? It seems the turn should be done above the pattern altitude since you could be heading towards potential traffic.
@@johnlucas2037the turn is made approximately 2 miles from the airport, which should be clear of aircraft in the traffic pattern. With this type of entry you essentially aren’t in the traffic pattern until the descent and turn have been completed. You going to enter the pattern as if you approached the airport from the pattern side initially. Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) Pages 8-4 & 8-5, Figure 8-3.
@@johnlucas2037 This is all meant to be done away from the traffic pattern environment to mitigate possibilities of mid-air collisions. The descent is done before the turn to remove layers of complexity and reduce pilot work load allowing them the ability to more avidly scan for traffic. You go outside the environment, descend, turn inbound on a 45° to the downwind allowing better visibility of the traffic pattern environment and giving you time to mitigate possible traffic issues.
This descending "teardrop" to 45 entry from at least 500' above the TPA was advocated at FAA Wings meetings in the 90s. It presents a conflict only if the descending turn is begun too close to the runway.
I had my check ride 2 years ago and this was how I was taught to enter the pattern after flying over the top plus 500' fly far enough out to make the turn into the 45 left downwind. I also did it during my check ride and there was no talking about it during or after the flight.
I do this all the time. Perfectly legal and safe. I was trained to do this. I just didn’t know it was called a tear drop. I was expecting to see some other maneuver entry in the video.
Shouldn’t be called a tear drop since tear drop is in reference to IFR. Our calls consist of “overflying midfield at 2200 (1000’ above pattern) maneuvering for the 45 left downwind runway xx”
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 the term tear drop is for IFR. Obviously you can fly what looks like a tear drop but no one should be using the term in VFR
@@CFITOMAHAWK2where does the AC talk about teardrop entires to patterns other than holding patterns?
I'm currently a low time student pilot. For my first four lessons, this is exactly how I was taught to enter the pattern. I had already completed onlline ground school and passed the written. When my instructor explained what we were doing the first time, I thought it was a LOT! However, it quickly became my preferred method when approaching the airport on the opposite side of the downwind.
The one concern would be if a pilot extends their crosswind considerably (at least a mile past downwind). Short of that, it's exactly like entering the pattern at a 45° angle from the downwind side. Especially if I'm in a low wing and they're in a high wing.
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 what? In IFR it’s absolutely a teardrop. You have direct entry, parallel entry and teardrop entry. It’s not called a teardrop in VFR however.
I've always been a firm believer in "less is best." Meaning, the fewer turns I have to make to enter an airport's traffic area (pattern), the better. I'll enter on final, base, downwind or crosswind (sometimes even upwind) at the proper altitude. About the only time I'll fly directly over the airport is when I know of no other traffic and I need to check the windsock or runway condition. Normally, the quicker I 'take a number' (coordinate with other pilots already around), then merge into the pattern from where I am currently, the better for others; it just depends on where I am and how many other airplanes there are in the vacinity. 😎My visibility is most enhanced when my wings are level; I present less of a question to others when my wings are level. If I cross over the airport then fly outbound for a couple of miles and then start maneuvering around out there I simply make myself more of a blind target for other arriving pilots while I'm banked. And it also means that I'm in the air longer, thusly, I'm a target longer than I need to be.
I don't love it, but this was drilled in as the ONLY way to enter the pattern from the opposite side (I got my ppl 11 months ago). The idea is to overfly the field at 500' over pattern altitude, go at least 2 miles beyond the pattern, then descend to pattern altitude, then "the teardrop", then you can enter the 45 into the downwind. So if done correctly, both the descent to pattern altitude and the teardrop turn happen 2 miles away from the pattern. My much preferred method of entry (if the pattern is empty) is to enter the crosswind OR fly midfield and turn directly into the downwind.
Bigger question: why bother with the teardrop in 99% of circumstances where you can just join the downwind without issue. Flying a low wing, one is particularly blind when coming in above traffic.
Totally
@@CFITOMAHAWK2so many variables
I believe the problems is when pilots do not fly far enough away from the downwind to perform the 'teardrop'. They should be AT pattern altitude when they enter the downwind...not descending into the downwind.
Never heard of such entry into a traffic pattern. I earned my private pilot in the 70's, and retired 40 years later from a major airline. Today is the first time I've ever heard the term teardrop to a VFR traffic pattern, or descending to a downwind.
@SI-Ig2vp You can read up about this recommended VFR pattern entry procedure in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook in Chapter 8 specifically the last paragraph on page 8-4 and depicted in Figure 8-3. Dan did a terrible job describing what the maneuver actually entails.
You are supposed to fly 500' or 1000' above the traffic pattern perpendicularly across the runway and maintain that altitude until you are 2 miles past the traffic pattern and then descend straight ahead down to pattern altitude. It is then at that point you make a right or left 225* turn to set yourself up on a 45* entry to the traffic pattern.
You do not cross the runway and then immediately start turning and descending into the traffic pattern like Dan is fearmongering about.
Also teardrop entry is not proper terminology and I did not teach my students to say that, we always stated we'll be overflying midfield at xxxx' and making a right/left 45* entry to the pattern.
Then I'm shocked you even became a pilot. This is extremely common and has been for years. Maybe you haven't done VFR flying in such a very long time, but this is literally what the FAA says to do.
Outstanding as always, Dan. Merry Christmas and stay safe
A many years ago... I was taught to overfly the field including the down wind traffic 500 feet or so higher than pattern altitude and make a right tear drop using a standard rate turn that would position you on a 2mi. 45 to the intersection of cross wind and down wind, not to the center of the field all at pattern altitude 2mi. out. A great excercise in itself ! Just in general, traffic comunications are so poor these days that when you look to where the pilot on the radio says he is, more than half the time he's not there !!!!
Dan, you remind me of my first ex-wife, she had a problem for every solution!
It is well established that there is no descending in the traffic pattern to enter the traffic pattern. Descending should be done well clear of the traffic pattern. But, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
Excellent point Dan. AC 90-66C calls for either:
1) 45 deg entry (if the airplane is already on the side of the TP),
2) Overfly the pattern 500 feet above TPA, continue at least 2 nm, then descend to the traffic pattern altitude (while still flying perpendicular to the runway) and finally turn to intercept the 45 (while flying at TP altitude),
3) Mid-field crosswind entry.
For some reason people started calling 2) a “teardrop entry” (likely because that’s what it’s called in ForeFlight Traffic Pattern procedure advisor) and in addition many make the mistake of descending while turning which is contrary to AC 90-66C. Therefore what people colloquially call “teardrop entry” is both named incorrectly and executed wrong.
The proper radio call should be: “overflying the field at XX feet, planning to enter left/right traffic for runway ZZ”.
Let’s keep it simple and standard and we’ll all be safer.
Dan have you seen the PHAK 14-3 lately? The "alternate" is to overfly at PA and make a left to join the downwind by jumping in front of someone. What you're doing in the maneuver is overflying the field and exiting the pattern, descending in the right spiral/teardrop and reentering on a 45 to the downwind at PA. This gives you visibility of the traffic on crosswind and entering the downwind as you're outbound and sets you up for a normal entry to the pattern
AC 90-66B (superseded) and current AC 90-66C make reference to the entry but do not call it a teardrop. The current AC also references the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C). Chapter 8 of the handbook states the following description of the entry on page 8-4:
"One method of entry from the opposite side of the pattern is to announce intentions and cross over midfield at least 500 feet above pattern altitude (normally 1,500 feet AGL). However, if large or turbine aircraft operate at the airport, it is best to remain 2,000 feet AGL so as not to conflict with their traffic pattern. When well clear of the pattern-approximately 2 miles-the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield."
With mil jets another more commonly used entry procedure is the midfield overhead break where one enters midfield about 500 ft above pattern altitude and at cruse speed; then you cut the power midfield, drop the gear, use speed brakes as needed and descend in the same direction that the pattern calls for ( right or left) so as to enter downwind, base and configured for final as a way to quickly get on the ground. Did it a few times in my Jet Provost. Very fun and ATC will sometimes approve it since it is a standard mil procedure
Merry Christmas Dan and family
Hi Dan,
You’re very didactic. You help(besides your son) GA!!!
Told you before.
Spot on, You deserve all credit for Your altruism. Hats off🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
From 🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪
I don't remember this but I did most of my flying in the mid to late 70s. You are doing a great public service and father; we all owe you a debt of gratitude!!
You are absolutely correct. If you are going the same direction closing speed is very low, a teardrop in an opposite direction the closing speed is 200kts , I’ve chickened out of airports when I’ve heard these teardrop nit whits
Figure 8-3(A) on page 8-5 of the Airplane Flying Handbook. It’s textbook recommend entry, Dan.
"If" youre clear of the pattern. These guys are not.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryderhow many miles do the 2 red lines represent? That was the only thing that was missing for context in the video. Love what you do for aviation
🎄Merry Christmas, Dan
It’s really not a “teardrop” it’s a right 180. I do not read a “teardrop” mentioned in the AC.
Thanks for doing this video guys! I’ve been a CFI since 1974, and this maneuver just came out of left field IMO.
I don’t like it and don’t tech it.
I started flying in 1974 and never heard of doing this until I moved to Florida 2 years ago.
The teardrop is one of the approaches I was trained on during my PPL training in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Interestingly ForeFlight also has the “cross midfield, teardrop” approach listed under their visual approaches when flight planning.
in Ireland and UK we just do an “ over head” join at 1000ft above traffic pattern height then descend on the dead site and join the pattern on the crosswind RH or LH, simple and safe!
Interesting take on this. I’ve never considered people thinking this was improper.
I was taught to use this at my home airport. As others have stated, you come in 600’ or so above traffic pattern, and don’t start descending until you’re in the teardrop turn.
I’ve always used it as opposed to flying right into the downwind from midfield for better separation. My home airport has a lot of crop duster activity that is all NORDO. I’m always looking outside, but those guys fly like cowboys, and it scares the hell out of you if you don’t see them when you turn into crosswind from midfield and they go flying 100’ over or under you.
On the way back from NY, I was cursed out by a guy who did exactly this to me after landing for ‘cutting him off’.
It may be ‘non-standard’ but in my opinion, the teardrop gives you more time to see potential traffic in both the crosswind, and downwind before you enter the pattern.
Every airport is different though. I’ve been to several airports that host flight schools where it just doesn’t work when you have 10 planes in the pattern, and everybody’s paying $3/minute for the plane.
With 5,000 hours dual given here is my technique: Circle over the airport at 1,000 feet above TPA and determine favored runway and traffic pattern direction. Parallel upwind leg over the runway remaining at 1,000 feet above TPA. Extend upwind leg until well outside normal x-wind leg, then turn x-wind. Crossing extended runway centerline start your descent to reach TPA at the extended 45* TP entry. Now turn to the 45* aiming at the approach end of the runway. This technique keeps the airport in sight at all times and puts you on an extended 45° entry at TPA well outside the traffic pattern.
The FAA started this teardrop entry BS and will end it after the first mid-air. The problem is, the attitudes and distances are theoretical. Maybe it was designed after the cloverleaf entry to an interstate highway. I would venture a guess that most low time pilots have no concept of the danger they are putting themselves and their passengers in.
I do it all the time. Pass over the airport 500’ above the traffic pattern. Begin descent after passing the downwind area to traffic pattern altitude then right 180 back towards the pattern which sets you up for entering in the first third of the departure end. Plenty of time to talk and spot other traffic.
You’re in a low wing airplane descending on top of a high wing and going head on with them. I have to ask why you would want to do that.
For one, situational awareness is key. Two, I’m following FAA guidance in the AC you referenced. (I’m usually over two miles away from the downwind leg inbound on a normal 45 degree angle at pattern altitude. I do not use the “teardrop” phraseology. No idea where that came from.
@@johnkiger1123AC 90-66B 11.3 stated the teardrop as the preferred midfield entry. The current AC 90-66C 11.3 changes that.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder I hear ya on the larger (and faster) aircraft operations. I’m usually outside their pattern descending and at pattern altitude 2-21/2 miles inbound. We have civil L-188’s, military C-130’s and a handful of Navy T-6’s that like to do non-standard right hand traffic and overhead breaks operating at one of our airports. Definitely have to communicate and plan to extend out further before turning inbound.
@johnkiger1123 If you're passing over the airport at 500' above the traffic pattern, why wouldn't you just make a left hand turn and join the left downwind?
Dan, I couldn't agree with you more on this topic! The local, large, big name, flight school - I won't mention any names, but I will tell you the field (KFFZ), has made this an absolute must for their pilots, and I think it's the most hazardous thing I've ever seen. They are flying Pipers, doing descending turns (in this case, it's a left teardrop, right downwind for a nonstandard pattern - typically,) into traffic. This maneuver might make sense in a high wing, with good visibility underneath, but I couldn't think of any reason whatsoever to do so in a low-wing (and I can't think of the last time I've done it in a high wing, for that matter). They expose themselves to cross traffic 3 times. It blows my mind. From a procedural standpoint, it is hard to fault them, as it is spelled out in the 8083 (Airplane Flying Handbook, page 8-4 / 8-5), but from a PIC standpoint, I applaud the few pilots from that flight school that don't do it. I had to ask the same question, "What is that?!" It seems like a very foolish maneuver, legal or not. I believe strongly in PIC authority, so I won't say that there is never a reason, but I think it should not be used without a good reason. For what it's worth. . .
A friend asked me about the teardrop procedure this morning down here in New Zealand.
I thought he was referring to an IFR procedure. But alas, he had watched this video.
Come down to New Zealand and do this VFR teardrop procedure and see how long it takes for a fellow aviator to ask you some questions, or for that matter, our Civil Aviation Authority.
I find it interesting ForeFlight call their VFR pattern entry a Teardrop. Now we know where the terminology came from. We have modified it at our local airport to deconflict from a well used VOR-A approach that would make a perpendicular overflight and descent a hazard to those on that approach.
I think I see your point Dan. 91.126 conflicts with AFH 8-4 thru 8-5. The reg does say “all turns”. Good lesson for those who watched this and turned to the Regs. Btw, I sometimes fly the teardrop, just depends on my situation… bottom line is safety! The guy doing the 360 was in clear violation.
In UK they decend on the ”dead” side and then enter midfield at the traffic pattern altitude
I believe people use this when simultaneous ops exists: eg. gliders using right ccts from right grass and powered aircrafts using left ccts from the bitumen, in which case there is no "dead side". Also when two paralel bitumen runways are in place (usually at class D), they run different patterns, joining overhead and descending on "live" side happens.
I have done this, but I never heard a radio call for a "teardrop". I just think of it as maneuvering well c!ear of the traffic pattern in order to enter the downwind.
This is very interesting topic. I overfly often. If no traffic I go at TPA direct to downwind. With traffic +500 fly outside the TP 2 miles or so and damn sure turn right to enter on the 45. I do it because of the AC and it seems logical. I am an advocate for Dan and safety. Dan can you tell me if how I fly is unsafe or are you talking making that right turn in or near the pattern? I will watch the video a second time.
I experienced this recently with a guy in a cirrus, as I was crossing midfield planning to enter a left downwind. Other mature pilots on the ground said "what was that!" (He was entering a typical downwind, at most, a mile off the landing runway.
your 500 feet above the pattern and descend 2 to 3from the pater and inter on a 45 to the down wind. I think this is the 1st time I have disagreed with you on anything. You point is a good one. but the maneuver is outside the pattern. In my opinion.
I usually announce overflying at 1000 feet above pattern, right turn 2 or 3 miles out, and then descend to enter downwind. It seems pretty standard for 80% of us. The 20% are usually straight in final from 10 miles….
Dan, I hear this all the time. I believe fight schools are teaching this now. I was always taught to enter at a 45 or a cross wind. Ive heard other pilots question this and they seem confused as to where the traffic is going. Not until I was instrument rated did I hear the words “teardrop”.
I don’t call it a teardrop. I need to get with the program
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 No, it is not a “teardrop” that is used in IFR procedures. In reality the terminology should not be used in VFR flying.
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 Uhh, surely you jest?
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 Teardrop used to be related to IFR flying only. Both procedures are flown distinctly different. I had no idea ForeFlight called the VFR procedure a Teardrop until I ran across someone’s comment. However, I can see some possible confusion arising using the same terminology during VFR and IFR operations (IMC or not). I’ve always announce I was overflying the airport midfield at xxxxx altitude to maneuver whichever direction from the airport into downwind. Additional position calls as appropriate. Problem is many call it a teardrop but overfly into a descending right 270 directly into downwind.
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 Actually it is not the same shape most of the time with all the VFR cowboys out there. IMC, we are beat into submission to fly correct holding entries lest we will chase the needle trying to intercept the final approach course. And when you call procedure turn inbound those that know what “procedure turn” means know where you should be and most likely are. VFR folks call their “procedure turn” only they know where they are going while we guess.
Parachute jumping?
Sometimes a crosswind join is the better option.
I think the main thing with teardrops is to be at pattern altitude on the 45 before entering the downwind, usually by means of extending out a multiple miles, descending, then making your turn to the 45 at pattern altitude. I feel like giving yourself enough space is what should be considered to prevent pilots from being in a descending turn inside the pattern itself
Been flying GA since 1995 and have never seen the “teardrop” (actually a 270), to get into the pattern. Looks like somebody failing to get on speed and using it to slow down. Maybe try and contact that pilot and get his $0.02 off camera.
It's a recommendation by the faa in the aim or one of the faa handbooks. I can find it for you if you need it
Hi Dan, the Airplane Flying Handbook, Chapter 8, Figure 8.3, shows the traffic pattern entry refered to by pilots (not the FAA) as the "tear drop". Thank You. Perry
Show me in writing where the name "teardrop" is ever used by FAA except in IFR. If you're gonna do it, you got to go way out a long way away to pull this off.
Dan this is very common, very safe and done outside the pattern setting you up for a 45 entry to the downwind. It is called a "teardrop or a right 270." Stop pretending you have never heard or seen this. If I want to argue with someone over nothing I will call my wife in here. In addition you took up a lot of time on a CTAF that may have been needed for an emergency. Dan you are wrong on this one so please stop arguing for the sake of argument and go back to creating some of the good content you are known for.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder agree with your concern over this maneuver, especially in close. I think i picked it up from the AFH as well and perhaps my instructor discussed. I've done it many times, but you have to go way out and then make some steep turns. not sure this is best. If fact some times there could be terrain out there. It doesn't say teardrop , but does say "descend to pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45° to the downwind leg" this end up being a 'teardrop' sort of shape - although not the same a teardrop holding entry... Also the Figure 8-3 of the AFH says this process , depicted as (A) is the 'Preferred entry for upwind leg side" hmmm..
@@jeefflanyt Show me anywhere that the FAA uses the word “teardrop” for VFR pattern. Anywhere.
It may not say the word “teardrop,” but it is the recommended entry by the ASA Flying Handbook
I think your video is good as it calls out differing opinions on the ways to enter traffic patterns. I see both sides of this coin and was taught to cross midfield. I also think that the teardrop is not IN the traffic pattern. I do want to say that I agree with the guy who did a left 360 for spacing though. Is it better if he turned right when in right traffic? That would comply with 91.126. But I could see negatives as well. Something to think about. Always learning!
OK then I am confused. If I cross over midfield and make a left 90° turn for a left downwind, left pattern those are all left turns. However, I’m not entering the pattern at a 45° entry. I am making a 90° turn after crossing midfield, heading initially 90° from the downwind heading. I think this is why people do a teardrop turn, the rollout put you on a 45 for downwind. This, however, can only be achieved by turning in the opposite direction. Maybe an illustration of what is correct should be shown. Thank you.😊
Common sense says entering at pattern altitude, cross midfield and make a LH turn to enter the downwind is the safest.
This seems to assume nobody on upwind... I note at least one comment above where a pilot says the sometimes enter on the upwind... also this makes for a rushed entry and very short time to see others if one was scanning for the wind sock while flying over mid field (eyes down). And what happens if you don't locate the wind sock at unfamiliar airport? I think being above pattern when crossing leaves more time and options. It's not possible to join the pattern at midfield after overflying perpendicular at midfield without some sort of right turn, but as this video and other comment points out, doing that close enough to be in conflict with faster more distant patterns is a problem. However, looking at the altitudes and assuming that the midfield altitude was 1500 AGL (JZP is ~1500msl, so the flight aware data is probably off) the altitude was 500 less than midfield, and nearly pattern altitude by the time the lear jet would have been encountered. Thus they should be safely below the faster pattern it seems. Still this is complex. And everything I see here has me thinking that crossing 1000ft above light aircraft pattern (500 above fast planes) and descent after outside the fast-plane pattern would really be safest albeit slowest.
@@GusHeck the more maneuvering you do in the vicinity of the traffic pattern provides more opportunities for collisions. Overflying 1K above TP with a LH teardrop means you could both be descending and momentarily turning your “back” on traffic. Low wing descending into a high wing… disastrous. High wing banking and descending around the teardrop turn sets up for another blindspot.
It’s best to do as I suggested and use the CTAF radio frequency to check for traffic. If say an aircraft was on the upwind, negotiating over the radio to have them extend their upwind or you slow down would de-conflict.
We merge onto the freeway all the time. No 360s for spacing. We primarily use speed to self adjust and drivers around us also adjust.
As a pilot trained in the 70s and a CFI since that era I prefer to fly the most efficient arrival which may include a straight in if traffic is not a factor. I would only fly this teardrop reversal to a downwind if the pattern was busy and I needed to sequence into the pattern. Performing this entry routinely is both inefficient and unnecessary to safely enter a traffic pattern. I’m finding most newly minted pilots using this procedure and when a number of aircraft are approaching a non controlled airport most are headed one way or another to the same 45 degree downwind entry which generates conflicts. JMHO
@@williamziebarth9380 Do you worry about nordo/wrong freq pilots? I remember reading about an incident where a pilot flying straight in hit a pilot turning final. The one pilot was very experienced but tuned to an outdated CTAF that was found on a note within his cockpit... I do agree that if everyone does the same entry all the time, (at least from one side) this just moves the point of conflict. I guess the question is where is the best merge point to de-conflict, the entry to pattern, or the overflight (honest q, not sure I can rationalize either answer though I lean toward more predictable = better).
@@JohnChvatalGSTV I think the key thing that is at issue is box 2 of figure 8-3 of the AFH.
De-conflicting is a given, but is less effective if the other party (or YOU!) inadvertently tune the wrong freq. I wouldn't want to rely too much on radio communication. Also, cars have brakes and don't fall off the road when they go too slow...
Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) Figure 8-3. Everything is correct 500-1000 over TPA, only thing you dont do is descend while in tp
Totally correct - the diagrams in the PDF are very clear. I personally like the +500 ft option (A) since I fly a low-wing aircraft, and directly entering the pattern after overflying the field at TPA creates a blind spot for me, but both are ok and legal. Of course my favorite way to land is the overhead break, since I'm a wannabe top gun fighter jock. 😂
@@dermick Show me where the overhead break is recommended.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder As of course you know, the overhead break isn't recommended anywhere in civilian aviation, but it's still fun when you can do it. Personally, I only do it when I'm sure that the pattern is empty.
What about flying over at 1500 agl at 45 degrees to the field execute a left descending turn when you are clear of the traffic and enter at a 45 into the downwind leg? Would that be a better option? Or just cross the field at pattern alt and enter on the runway side of the downwind?
Unfortunately you have missed some information. The aircraft crosses the field, 500-1000’ above pattern altitude, the turn is made approximately 2 miles from the airport, which should be clear of aircraft in the traffic pattern. With this type of entry you essentially aren't in the traffic pattern until the descent and turn have been completed. You going to enter the pattern as if you approached the airport from the pattern side initially. Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) Pages 8-4 &
8-5, Figure 8-3.
I have not heard this as a "teardrop entry" - seems that would confuse things with a teardrop procedure ("penetration") turn but it is well described on page 9 of the AOPA article, including the caveat of an extra 500 feet above pattern altitude if higher performance aircraft. Maybe I'm missing the point but (recent tweaks of AC 90-66C notwithstanding) this was done properly and is preferred over the cross-filed with turn into the pattern from essentially the opposite side, also described on page 9 of the AOPA article which apparently is not allowed to be posted here.
On my CFI initial the DPE told me to enter a right tear drop into the left downwind for landing. I was like “WTF are you talking about??!” I’d never even heard of that maneuver. Must be some remnant of old school flight instruction.
I always thought the teardrop was weird and wrong, and I just assumed there was some exception in the regs that I hadn't noticed. The UK "overhead join" makes a lot more sense and has its own Wikipedia page.
As others have pointed out, this maneuver, when performed correctly, is initiated outside the traffic pattern at 500-1000 ft above PA and sets up for a proper 45 entry onto downwind. Nothing illegal or unsafe about it when executed correctly with proper radio calls and standard traffic scanning.
It’s being done in the pattern.
Instructors teach the teardrop pattern. Dan seems to be misreading the regulations, although the phrase “in the vicinity” is less than clear. What is clear is that a teardrop is not in the pattern but an approach to the pattern.
When the minimum required deaths have happened the FAA will advise against this crazy pattern entry maneuver.
Dan, you are incorrect. According to your logic of left turns only in a left pattern or right turns only in a right pattern there can be no 45 degree entry leg. I have to make a right turn to enter the left downwind off a 45 degree leg.
From the Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3C) Chapter 8:
⦁ The traffic pattern is normally entered at a 45° angle to the downwind leg, headed toward a point abeam the
midpoint of the runway to be used for landing.
⦁ The pilot should ensure that the entry leg is of sufficient length to provide a clear view of the entire traffic
pattern and to allow adequate time for planning the intended path in the pattern and the landing approach.
I must make a right turn when I enter the left downwind from a 45 Degree entree. Hanging a hard left after overflying the field at pattern altitude is never mentioned in the Airplane Flying Handbook. In my opinion, it is dangerous.
If Flying N122ME from SW why not decend, 5 miles out to pattern Altitude and Proceed to a Point 1 to 2 miles SE of KJZP for a 45 degree entry to RW 13 at KJZP. Much easie/Safer to plan ahead than desending head into the EXTENDED pattern of Larger/Faster Aircrraft. Even Turning a MidFeild left Down wind (AT PATTERN ALTATUDE) is better/safer than a Right Teardrop into other traffic.
I’m not instrument rated but agree no way I would fly against traffic pattern at any height. And I’ve learned to talk via tower to other traffic and happy to orbit to avoid conflict on busy traffic pattern. My aerodrome ATZ is in uncontrolled class G. When approaching Class D airports I simply comply when safe with ATC for VFR arrival. ( If not safe I discuss with ATC). Sometimes they ask me to orbit. PA 28.
Hey Dan! Didn't know you were gonna be on tonight!
Surprise surprise!😊
Figure 8-3 in the Airplane Flying Handbook depicts the two approved alternate entry methods if entering the traffic pattern from the upwind side (opposite side of the airport from the downwind side) of a non-towered airport.
Also the paragraph before states "There are several ways to enter the pattern if the arrival occurs on the upwind leg side of the airport. One method of entry from the opposite side of the pattern is to announce intentions and cross over midfield at least 500 feet above pattern altitude (normally 1,500 feet AGL). However, if large or turbine aircraft operate at the airport, it is best to remain 2,000 feet AGL so as not to conflict with their traffic pattern. When well clear of the pattern-approximately 2 miles-the pilot should scan carefully for traffic, descend to pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45° to the downwind leg at midfield. [Figure 8-3A] An alternate method is to enter on a midfield crosswind at pattern altitude, carefully scan for traffic, announce intentions, and then turn downwind. [Figure 8-3B] This technique should not be used if the pattern is busy."
I agree now thinking about it as being perhaps not the best choice, but somehow it seems to be the way i was trained or read it here.
Very interesting video Dan. I”m from Canada and up here the teardrop entry is not an approved entry. Descending is only allowed on the side opposite to the traffic pattern, so if coming from the side of the circuit (pattern), we are taught to overfly 500ft above circuit (pattern) height, descend on the opposite side, and then return by crossing midfield at circuit height and turn directly into the downwind accordingly (right or left as indicated for the particular runway). If coming from the side opposite the circuit one leave out the overfly part, but only if you have an idea of weather etc. If no information is available, one would overfly again at 500 above pattern, check the conditions, turn around, cross over again and then descend on the ‘upwind’ non-pattern side. Every time I fly in the US, I’m always uncertain what to do since there’s so much of this ‘teardrop’ entries going on. So I particularly appreciated this video. Dan, I will admit that I’ve been critical of you a few times when you started your channel. I found your presentation very aggressive. However I’ve come around to appreciate what you’re trying to do. And I applaud you for it. Please continue.
I’d certainly never cross midfield at pattern altitude… You may want to rethink that regardless of what they’re teaching you up there
Canada, Australia, UK all the same. The FAA has these guys descending on top of each other and turning head on with downwind traffic at the same altitude where all of the potentially faster and heavier traffic is going to be, The FAA handbook shows the midfield entry from upwind leg side of airport as an alternate entry.
www.tc.gc.ca/publications/en/tp11541/pdf/hr/tp11541e.pdf
"aggressive presentation" yeah I think I can agree with that being an issue. Dan would reach a larger audience if he was more "just the facts" and less harshness that he often directs towards specific individuals.
@@ulbuilder sometimes Dan turns a teaching moment into a beating…
@@mikecamrcplus3057
”Make all descents to the circuit on the upwind side, then cross the aerodrome at mid-field, at 1 000 ft AAE or at the published circuit altitude.”
Wow
Page 8.5 in chapter 8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook recommends the right hand teardrop entry to left downwind 2 mi away from the active runway. I teach that technique to my students because it is preferable to overflying the field and entering the downwind midfield from the opposite side of the traffic pattern. I suggest you choose a different battle, sir.
Where does it say teardrop? I need to know because I think I’m teaching it wrong
@@ericsd55 The teardrop is shown in fig. 3A on page 8-5 in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook. Arriving at airports from the upwind side of the runway is always an exercise requiring good judgement and planning. On heavy traffic days, I just give wide berth and enter on the 45 to the downwind. I teach students to be humble and safe rather than right and dead when it comes to possible traffic conflicts.
@@ajalwin2485 but it's not called a teardrop entry tho
I have just recently been hearing teardrop entry in Minnesota, still do not know what it means, must be a new idea spread by instructors.
It’s safer to join the crosswind than a mid field downwind entry in my opinion. It would’ve put Dylan number 2 on the downwind and would’ve prevented the other airplane from making my the left 360. Also a lot of those uncontrolled airports have jumpers jumping over the middle of the field. Another very dangerous hazard with mid field downwind entries… teardrop or not👍🏼
The circular states: 8.2.1 The FAA does not regulate traffic pattern entry, only traffic pattern flow
Please read FAA AC90-66 in its entirety. The traffic pattern entry procedures outlined and depicted in the AC do not create a regulatory violation.
I wish Dan was my dad 😂 Nice to see how far Dylan has come. Delta bound?
Well, this is timely. I haven't flown to a local airport in an while and recently listened to their AWOS remarks..now says "tear drop maneuvers to left or right are not recommended". I've done it myself, always thinking 2 nm distance was enough...definitely reconsidering. Love all the comments about if I need to do it, go out further, make sure you're wings level, 1 min or so on the 45, etc
Dan in my day we never did opposite direction descending turns in the traffic pattern. It sounds nuts to me.
The turn isn't in the pattern. It's 2 nm out, then joins the pattern (downwind) at a 45° as normal.
Hey Dan … not a hater here 🤓
I believe that AC 90-66C offers an alternate method.
1. Overfly the airport +500 feet above pattern altitude (not in the pattern).
2. Fly clear of the traffic pattern (approximately 2 miles).
3. Descend to pattern altitude (outside the traffic pattern) then turn inbound.
4. Yield to downwind traffic and enter midfield downwind at 45’.
The over the top right turn to the left downwind. All descending and right turning should be out side of the left hand traffic pattern.
Keep up the good work. I’m a huge fan of the DMMS and AQP.
When overflying mid field to enter the traffic pattern on the other side of the RW I always announce how high I am going to be AGL. I must have missed Dylan's announcement about his altitude (~3:06 of vid.) ... didn't hear it. I believe the AIM says you should cross over at least 500' above traffic pattern altitude. If anything, I'd err on the high side between 500' and 1,000'. After crossing mid field, I'm not going to descend and turn toward the traffic patern until I am 3 miles out. If any other A/C is in the patteren, I'm not going to descend until radio and visual contact is made. And don't forget to keep looking for pilots who are NORAD.
How far away is the typical downwind pattern for you? Seems like he was 3 miles away when he made that teardrop turn. My downwinds are like within a 1/2 a mile from the runway at most.
To complicate matters, I fly a gyroplane and according to AC 90-66C, 12.1.3, "In the case of a gyroplane approaching to land, the gyroplane pilot operating in the traffic pattern when landing on the runway may fly a pattern similar to the fixed-wing aircraft traffic pattern but at a lower altitude (500 feet above ground level (AGL)) and closer to the runway." Therefore, if I fly over the field several miles from the runway to turn to enter a 45 degree entry to the downwind, when should I descend and to what altitude for the 45? I typically fly 500 ft AGL on my 45, and then enter a short approach downwind, base, and final, making appropriate position announcements (identifying that I am on a short approach) as I go.
From all the comments, clearly a subject of controversy that needs resolved in the aviation community. PPL for two years now and according to what I was taught, the teardrop is what FAA prefers....AC 90-66C. I'm not certain they refer to it as a teardrop entry but that's what it looks like and what pilots know (if you know). Foreflight lists the teardrop as an approach. However, be careful if using ''Descent to Dest'' altitudes on Foreflight because I don't think they have that correct. If you try to use it, it has you descending as your crossing midfield. (Maybe they'll get updated). ---------- Anyway, love your content Dan but might want to research a bit more on this one and clarify (it's highly needed for everyone, even Foreflight)..... Merry Christmas!!
Thanks, I don't use foreflight (not opposed to it - just don't use it.) This maneuver that I am seeing more and more is clearly done right on the downwind leg and nobody ever stopped to think about why that is not a good idea....If you wanna go way out away and do whatever, that is fine. Be nice and stable and on TPA on a wings level 45 when you think about coming back towards the airport tho...
Dan, in my opinion, the name of the game is risk reduction. We can never eliminate risk, only try to reduce it. In the case of the midfield overhead entry, the entire environment must be analyzed by the arriving pilot. Ten miles out, I'm gauging the amount of traffic and position. I make a decision. Too much traffic in the pattern for my comfort level, I'm going to overfly TPA + 500+, decend and only worry about 45 traffic for pattern entry, then downwind trafffic as I enter that. Light traffic in the pattern? Cross over midfield at TPA. I have upwind, crosswind, downwind, entering 45, and base in my horizon of view. Still outside of the upwind and decending toward TPA, I make my final choice, enter downwind or abort entry and overfly. I believe decision making is fluid. Being dogmatic of a particular point may be counterproductive to the best outcome.
Appreciate your efforts to make us all THINK!
but we(jet traffic) always come in 1500feet (500 above) pattern alt. and then descend into traffic ? I always wondered about this. also we are pretty much always coming in on an approach which makes it more interesting at times
Dan, you are correct that there is no such thing as a VFR teardrop entry into a non-tower controlled downwind leg of the traffic pattern. The FAA Pilot’s Handbook refers to the maneuver as an alternate method of entry when approaching the airport from the opposite side of the traffic pattern. It calls for overflying the airport 500’ above traffic pattern altitude (1500’ AGL for prop driven aircraft or 2000’ AGL for large turbines powered aircraft). Fly approximately 2 miles past the traffic pattern then descend to traffic pattern altitude while making a right turn (for left traffic patterns) to reverse course and enter on the 45 degree entry into the pattern. I think the problem is figure 14-2 of the pilot’s handbook that although not to scale, depicts the turn to appear in a teardrop shape with no completion of course reversal before entering.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard to circumnavigate the airport outside the pattern and make the standard 45 degree entry to downwind. That extra $6 gallon of gas must be the only reason I can see why someone would use the alternate entry. I reckon overflying the field to review the segmented circle or windsock might be a good reason. Trying to beat another aircraft into the pattern is a terrible reason.
Thing is figure 14-2 (in PHAK) or part A of Figure 8-3 (in the AFH) - the so called 'teardrop' is being touted by the FAA at the "preferred" method. hmmm.
I’ve always went at least 3 miles past midfield before doing a “teardrop” however I’m at traffic pattern altitude as I’m actually entering the pattern. I view it as almost like a procedure turn to get into the pattern
What about the collision jazzers that is created when you overfly at pattern altitude and turn onto downwind. You turning your wing up to downwind 45 entry traffic.
*hazard (jazzers!! Lol)
I always thought what people mean when they say teardrop entry is that they overfly the field 500 or 1000 feet above TPA, then they continue outbound until they are well clear of the traffic pattern, then they can either descend and turn, or turn while descending, and then they do a normal 45 degree downwind entry into the traffic pattern. That would be completely legal; in fact, before they changed their docs to include midfield crosswind entry that would be the only legal way to enter the traffic pattern which is on the opposite side of the field as you approach it (short of flying around the airport in a large circle, of course). That guy said he would be outbound for 2 miles, which is arguably not enough to be well clear of the traffic pattern, but certainly if he meant he would still be descending as he'd be joining downwind - that would be grossly illegal.
Right, but if someone is descending into a 45 degree left downwind, aren't you potentially flying head-on to that person?
@@egec1if you're away from the traffic pattern - you could be flying head-on to all sorts of things, there's no way to separate yourself from other traffic other than watching and keeping your fingers crossed.
Well Dan, the teardrop entry is a published entry by the FAA in the PHAK and one I use quite often. As mentioned by other commenters, the idea is you need to fly over and beyond the pattern before beginning your descent and turn back inbound on what’s is essentially a standard 45 degree entry by that point. Yes, it requires situational awareness, but arguably no more than should always be had in the traffic pattern. 👍
Show me where they call it a tear drop. Like anywhere.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryder I didn’t realize the point of your video was what people call it? I thought your issue was with the maneuver itself. Regardless of what people call it, it’s published as the PREFERRED method of entering the pattern from the upwind side of the runway in the AFH section 8-4 and depicted in graphic 8-3.
@@ProbableCause-DanGryderno one can, Dan…no one. We’ve been fighting this BS term at our airport for years. The children of the magenta just laugh at us old guys….until they count our types and hrs of dual given lol
@@NorthwestAeronautbut not exclusive. This is where the pilot needs to perform ADM … I think this is the bigger picture being presented by Blow Hard Dan.
Do you have access to a Debonair to show everyone what flying it with 5° of trim tab deflection in the nose down direction?
That might clarify recent tragic events.
Just saw that someone else did this test a couple days ago with his wife flying. He did it at level flight at reduced speed and his wife was struggling to hold it level with 5° down trim.
Dan, after overflying the downwind leg, how far would one need to fly to be considered no long in the pattern? Standard downwind leg is a mile perpendicular to the runway but i suppose large aircraft (which i don't fly) may choose a wider circuit, hence my question.
See ride along video number 11. FAA says an additional 2 miles beyond traffic pattern so I’d say 3.5 nm beyond airport is minimum.
Exactly! Dangerous
I heard that just today and almost asked what it was. I think the stationair descended too soon, but it does match the Airplane Flying Handbook, chapter 8, fig 3. My question is still the terminology. "Teardrop" is an IFR holding entry, not this maneuver (it has no name in the Airplane Flying Handbook). Proba
If you're on the TP side of the airport and intend to enter the left downwind on the 45 degree angle, what direction will you have to turn to join the downwind leg? If we're being very literal about paragraph (b)(1)[direction of turns], which it seems that we are, then a 45 degree pattern entry would also be illegal. Is that the takeaway from this discussion?
QUESTION FOR THE GROUP: On a similar note, what is the reason for entering the downwind leg on the 45 from the TP side of runway, and why would one make a 90 degree turn to downwind from upwind side of field? In other words, why not use 90 degree turns from either side of the downwind leg?
I had a bigger issue with the plane in front of yall doing a 360. Main reason is you told him you had him in sight. Now him turning a 360 and you turning into the down wind leaves neither of you seeing each other. Why take a dangerous step back and now not see each other?
Exactly.
AC 90-66B page 9 midfielders entry into pattern recommended entry is right teardrop to left downwind … if this is in the FAA’s pub, how can it be illegal?
It is in the PHAK also.
First off…should be illegal to call it a teardrop when there’s no mention of that term anywhere in VFR flight.
Hi, what does DTSB mean?
Off topic question, the pilot does the two handclaps in this video and inthe one over OKC, why? Something to do with seeing that the trim setting is correct? TIA
Sync up the multiple cameras? Ikd
We use UK overhead joins with crosswind circuit entry. Trying to enter especially that 45 degree is ok if you are familiar with the field. UK seeing traffic enter from outside into the circuit 45 wouldn't be considered good form. It's ok to join xwind, d/wind or base or final but can annoy the other 5 in circuit as they try to give way. Overflying then going miles out to descend, what's the point of losing sight of airfield and other traffic.
Say last 20 odd years commercial training and testing asked for direct entries into circuit. That generation of pilots then instructors then think it's ok to just join base or final and mess up those that take the trouble to join overhead, especially when 5 in the circuit. Just bad airmanship.
Another issue here for discussion/debate is non-essential communications clogging up the frequency.
Was not this the cause of a mid air between two gyro copters at Oshkosh last summer??