There's an old sci-fi story that had automatic weapon systems based on this in a WW3 trench warfare scenario. Spotting rifles would randomly fire into various pieces of concealment in no-mans-land (an arctic wasteland, so lots of shifting snowdrifts and the like) with powerful directional microphones listening to the impact. Any metallic sound would immediately be followed up by an anti-tank round...
Legend has it that this "sighting gun" was itself sighted by a .357 S&W Magnum, which in turn was sighted using a .45 ACP Derringer. By the time the whole unit was properly sighted, half the enemy targets were already dead.
You forgot the rubber slingshot to sight the derringer and the rocks for throwing to sight the slingshot. My understanding is that your very first action was to spit into the air to gauge windage for the rocks.
@brianmccarthy5557 the funny thing about this is, when you think about it, our most advanced infantry weaponry still just amounts to throwing rocks really, really hard 😂
Back in the 80's I was in the South African Army, and I can remember having a chat to a paratrooper who trained on the 106mm recoilless rifle. He specifically mentioned that the ballistic matching on the 12.7mm spotting round was pretty much perfect. The 106 would land exactly where the 12.7 landed every time.
@@thesaddestdude3575 Happened in early 1991, he had some minor burn marks on his neck and chest, but nothing major. I still remember that Lima Foxtrot incident as a USN MEU was sailing by on the way to GW1, and their comms jammed all our signal sets - some idiot repeating “Mercedes Now” over and over, so it wasn’t constructive as we were doing an infantry battalion heavy weapons shoot.
This solves a mystery for me. I had an empty 50cal cartridge in my pile of misc brass that was too short to be 50 BMG (12.7x99) and I didn't know what it was for. The headstamp was no help. Then while watching this I was like "Ah ha!" I went and measured it and yep, it was 12.7x77.
We used to call the spotting rifle shot "Firing the Oh Round". Because after that registers on target, they have about as long as it takes to say; "Oh!" before the M40 round hits. I hated seeing those guns leave the arsenal. They were so versatile. It only took 5 Marines to carry it by hand when broken down into Gun tube, Tripod and T&E Block.
It's been very interesting to see what's happened to them since then though. A lot of spotting and training rifles have gone on to have some very unusual lives. In Ukraine right now they're actually repurposing barrel insert rifles which were made to train Soviet tank crews as heavy sniper rifles.
@@WineScrounger A corollary to necessity being the mother of invention, is that it is perilous for a nation-state to inflict asymmetrical necessity on an enemy nation.
Funny you should mention that. A decade or three ago when I was researching the 20-round mag I had, I read somewhere that gunners could clear out a building/bunker just by firing the spotting round in there. The occupants assumed the reckless round would be following shortly and took the opportunity to abandon the real estate.
These were used on the M50 Ontos (because it had the M40 recoilless rifles), and similar systems (with M2 Brownings) were used on the Centurions and Chieftain tanks for ranging their main guns. All predating laser rangefinders, obviously, which completely changed everything.
Back in 72, in 2/14 QMI ( light horse) we had an AT troop with M40s on Beachbuggy Landrovers. I got to fire them. Driver would locate vehicle in hull down shooting position, Gunner (me) would lay the gun with scope, Loader would chamber 106 round, clear Back Blast area, tap me on s shoulder, One round M48 50 Spotter to confirm lay, and Bang! 106mm Round on target, Loader Jumps aboard, Driver guns engine in reverse, and we Scoot to new position. Great Times! Doc AV
Ahh, the old shoot n' scoot berm drills. About the only time you can almost recklessly drive around a large dangerous vehicle in training (M113A3 in my case).
I’m sure it’s extremely common among vets but I’ll post it for everyone else anyway: During the 50’s a relative serving in the British armed forces had a friend reprimanded after recklessly riding a motorcycle. He was charged with:“Driving with excessive zeal.” It’s always stuck with me as hilarious. Now I think about it, it may actually have been my relative. Will edit and confirm.
I was trained as a 106mm RG section commander in the '80s. The way we charge the spotting rifle was palms down n pull back, not palms up pull back (as shown 6'50" of the video). This was due to the sharp edges of the ejection port right about in the middle. You may cut yourself in the palm if you pull back with your palm facing upwards. It is safer to pull back with your thumb and pointer finger sliding along the rifle body, palms facing down. Just sharing. Nice to see this old bugger again after so many years.
I was trained as a M40 106mm gunner back in the 80s at Walvis bay in Namibia. We used to remove the bolt from the spotter and use a zeroing cap in the breech of the main gun to boresight the 2 systems together. Often using the church spire in town as our aiming point. Excellent video.
@@georgeau2523 It was a cap that went into the breech and had an aperture for bore sighting, spotting rifle and optical sight to the same point approx 1200m in the distance. Was part of the cleaning and maintenance kit.
We used these as part of a subcaliber training device on the M-60 tank. We mounted it on top of the main gun like we later mounted the M2. The vehicles we fired at were manned. We fired non-AP incendiary rounds at the up-armored M114s with steel plates welded on. This was in the 80s and sounds as primitive as all hell now - but it did at the time too.
I had an anti-tank platoon with 6 x 120mm WOMBAT recoilless AT rifles in Berlin (1981-83). They each had a 50 cal spotting rifle, but the trajectory of the spotting rounds was mismatched to the main armament, because the size, mass and low velocity of the HESH round meant that it not only arced in the vertical plane, but also (because of the rifling induced spin on its front-to-rear axis), it 'rolled' and drifted - consistently, I might add - to the right as it travelled. Zeroing the system was a complicated affair, (telescope - dead straight LOS, 50 cal vertically parabolic trajectory, main armament parabolic trajectory on the V axis with a built-in right-hand Yaw on the H axis . . . ) Teaching the lesson "Theory of Zeroing" was very distinctly an Officer's Job, let me tell you 😀 Happy daze
I appreciate how you said "self loading" instead of semi-automatic. A lot of non-gun people are confused when they hear semi-automatic. They could think it´s a kind of automatic. And as always: great video.
Not to get too technical, but self-loading and semi-automatic ARE different things. Even a lot of gun people don't know the difference, but not all semi-automatics are self-loading.
@real pedroppp To qualify as semi-automatic, the gun only needs to eject the spent cartridge and possibly reset the striker. A self-loader also loads itself. A semi-automatic doesn't necessarily cycle, unless it's also self-loading.
@real pedroppp This is established terminology, self-ejecting isn't a thing. This isn't about putting "self" and "loading" together and yelling "Aha! It loads itself!"
SPOTTING rifle. I misread the title as sporting rifle. Now I’ve seen plenty of odd things marketed as sporting arms but I was about to say now this is a bit far but then I focused my eyes.
@@lairdcummings9092 I saw a Punt Gun being demonstrated a good number of years ago now & remember thinking that it didn't seem very sporting. [I know its not a rifle & is classed as a shotgun. But standing near it when it went off it seemed more like a canon using grapeshot]. Remember thinking at the time that I was amazed no one every employed them in WWI as a way of breaking up charges against the lines, would have been devastating.
I remember shooting the 106 back in the late 70's. The back blast was tearing chunks out of the asphalt behind the firing line. The trigger reminded me of a door know. Semper fi
My Dad was on an Ontos in Vietnam. He always praised this aiming system. The Museum of the America GI in College Station Texas has a fully restored M50 Ontos. It worth a look if your in the area.
You missed it this year, but in March the GI museum does a living history weedend. It awesome they actual run the Tanks in field behind the museum with a demo battle.
Sofilein posted a video at the museums living history weekend 2021 of my Dad describing M50 operations. Me and Dad had great time their and love that museum.
We had these on our 120mm Conbat & Wombat anti- tank guns. Great watch. After a range day and all our 120mm hesh rounds were fired we would use up all the remaining spotting rounds on hard targets.
Ian, from TM 9-1000-205-12 dated March 1959: "Cal. .50 spotting rifle M8C is the only model spotting rifle covered in this manual. As prescribed by MWO ORD B48-Wl, all rifles of early manufacture, designated cal. .50 spotting rifle M8 will be converted to cal. .50 spotting rifle M8C before issue. This modification consists of machining a counterbored hole in the firing mechanism housing of cal. .50 spotting rifle M8 to permit installation of an electrical safety mechanism when the rifle is used with multiple 106-mm full tracked self-propelled rifle M50 (TM 9-7222). A "C" is then stamped after the M8 designation on the receiver of the rifle. This modification does not affect troop use or care within the scope of this manual."
Saw one of those from up close a few weeks ago. The Brazilian Army had an antique weapons display and at the Brazilian Expeditionary Force section they had a M38A1C. My son is only 1 year old so i couldn't explain to him what it was, but took some pictures of him on the drivers seat to explain to him what it was in the future hahahaha Sadly it didn't had the magazine attached (for obvious reasons) so thank you for i was curious about it.
To fire the M40 recoiless rifle, you sit on a seat on one side and look through a telescopic sight. There are two crank wheels, one traverses and one elevates and depresses the rifle. You turn these cranks until you are on the target with the scope. The spotting rifle is fired by pulling a big nob out. It is a semiauto. The .50 cal. spotter rounds are all tracers. As soon as you get a hit with the spotter rifle, you push the nob in and the recoiless rifle fires, vitually instantly. When the M40 is fired, It feels like someone briefly stepped on your chest.
These remained in service with the Jeep-mounted106 in the armour defence platoons of Canadian Forces' reserve manoeuvre units into the 1980s. Their field stripping looks niggly and I am glad that I never had to do it in winter (I was never a 106 gunner).
To install springs without kinking, pull bolt to rear, install springs into bolt. Press springs forward as you press bolt forward. Tension and latch plugs.
Im fairly certain that if you HAD TO a .50cal exploding tracer round would delete an emergent threat infantryman rather quickly, without you needing to offload the primary round
@@justforever96 Having been an AT platoon leader, if someone exposed himself two klicks away thinking he was safe, we might just kill him on general principles to remove him from the gene pool. You have to be judgmental, though. Do you really want to give away your AT position (remember, you're paid to kill tanks)
If the AT guy is so unsupported that he has to use his spotting rounds for infantry, your tactics have already failed tremendously at the platoon level.
Well ya but a recoilless rifle isn't for single infantry targets, it's a replacement for bazookas. This is an anti armor or something you fire into fortified positions with multiple enemies
I've seen them in use with the M40. Very cool to see them used at night. Watching the tracer go down range then ricochet off the target. The M40 fired at night is something to behold.
A gentleman about 3 miles from me has a large collection of militaria, which he uses for re-enactments, photo shoots and parades. he has one of these in operating condition, mounted on a M40A2 Recoilless rifle, which in turn is mounted on a M38 Jeep. It's totally awesome.
Aw man. I read a book by a guy that crewed one of these during vietnam and have always been curious! The context y'all add to historical battles is superb!
my uncle use this in Italian Army during '60s he told me they where trained as a team on board of the FIAT Campagnola "jeep" armed with 106mm recoilless, they stop, aimed and fire the tracer, adjust fire the 106mm and run away of position... Don't forget to yell "attenti al 106!!" (pay attention to 106mm) when you fire !!
I enjoyed this video. The M40 recoilless rifle 106mm was still in Marine Corps service when I was in boot camp and I saw a live-fire demonstration as part of my training. Later, when the Army sent me to an 80-hour Unit Armorer Course, the M40 and its spotting rifle were out of the inventory, but I learned that there were still some spotting rifles and ammunition in the supply system--probably wartime reserves or used as military aid. You've given me a detailed look on the innards of the M8C spotting rifle that I thought I'd never get.
Hey, I love these spotting rifles! Possibly one of my favorite types of gun, something designed to NOT shot people, but still fires bullets like anything else. It's honestly quite interesting.
I hope you didn't use an inertia puller - despite the primers being recessed in the nose, those buggers are NOT smack-safe; hell, they're barely bore-safe. Had one go off about 15 yds downrange. My crew was extremely lucky that none of us got any WP burns.
There is a legend that all 6 guns of the Ontos were fired at once at Aberdeen Proving grounds, and the concussion from the firing blew out the glass in all the cars in the nearby parking lot....hence the need for a spotting round....as Ian indicates, the 106 is not a stealthy weapon.
Funny thing about the mags being pretty common. I actually have a 20rnd one myself. Picked it a few years ago at a gun shop that was going out of business.
Not only I learn about guns on this channel (I was not interested in guns before, but Ian's presentation is great, and I like the mechanical aspects), but it also helps improve my poorly self-taught "English". FINALLY I understood the word "kink" (and the "other" meaning) after Ian used it regarding that spring :-)
OOOOO. Sounds so smooth and seems so well engineered, simple and reliable was obviously the primary goal on the engineer's mind. That firing pin block/retractor is... top tier design.
WARNING from someone who had a platoon of 106's in a prior life. The spotting round is NOT DROP SAFE. If you drop it on its nose, it will detonate! That is the reason for the cardboard sleeve. I had good gunners, despite what the book says, my guys were getting first round hits at 2000-2500 meters. I asked the oldest sergeants and no one knew what the C stood for.
NICE! I have read about the 106's for years and have seen references to the spotting rifle, but nobody has gone into detail on the M8C, how it worked, or the very special ammo for it. As a bonus, in the next video we actually get to see it go BANG. Good stuff Ian!
Thank you for showing me this. One of these hanging from the ceiling at the surplus store in North Las Vegas and I had no idea what it was. More knowledge
anyone else wanna see someone reform some brass to make some loads up in fmj and build a stock system for it to allow Ian to undertake a shooting match with it?
I now wish I had the talent and time to gather up a bunch of those 20 round magazines and make some kind of semi-auto rifle around them to fire that short .50 round. Style it like a massive M14, and chamber it in .50 Special.
I was surprised to learn about systems like this when I first heard of the Mk 153's spotting rifle, it's still cool to hear about them in other weapon systems.
Hey Ian! Mexican Army uses m40 recoiless rifles in an exposition i saw some years back with i think is one of these, i didnt know the name until this video popped up thanks!
Hmmm, pretty sure I remember these from the (UK) WOMBAT anti-tank gun, still in use up to the early '80s. Wombat was a 120mm recoilless rifle used by UK Army either towed by a land rover or mounted on top of a FV432 APC - UK analogue to the M113.
@@Treblaine And the noise! Probably one reason (along with 84mm) that I'm deaf as a post. 1 shot weapons in reality - but anything hit by 120mm squash head was going to be utterly buggered!
The Marine Corps’ SMAW used a spotting rifle. As I recall, it was chambered in a proprietary round made from 7.62 necked up to 9mm diameter. I was a machine gunner and my buddy a SMAW gunner. He once asked me for some 7.62 blanks. I didn’t know about the spotting rifle, so a very confused conversation followed.
I've serviced the M8C before, this spotter uses a shortened 12.7×76mm cartridge that is ballistically matched to the M-40 (105mm) recoilless rifle. The military called its ammo 106mm to help prevent the accidental firing of the M-40 ammo in the earlier 105mm recoilless rifle, M-27. The 12.7x99mm of the M2/M3 service .50-cal machine-gun will not fit. I believe the (C) markings are due a clarification in the military model nomenclature. the term M8 was being used by the M8 greyhound scout car.
What a trip down memory lane! I trained on the first 106 At rifles" issued by the NZ Army they were a n amazing weapon in the day . the little sighting 50 cal had a n optical sight . when the splash showed a hit on the target instantly you smacked the firing knob ---& the main gun FIRED, once out of the tube the folded stabilising fins opened with a loud KRANg !! as the charge sped off to the target! Now it must be clearly understood--- NOW the whole district knows where you are ! a huge blast emerges from the rear of the weapon 20 yards long & 5 yards high! YOU DO Not hang about!! Ian show the main cartridge it explains a lot. t he Ontos thang mounts 6 or MORE of these ..imagine a main battery fire! thanks from an Ol KIWI this was 60 years ago
I'm honestly amazed they were able to design a mounting that not only allowed you to zero that thing to the main weapon, but KEPT it zeroed while the whole assemblage was bouncing around across rough terrain. That must've been a job and a half.
There was a gunsmith at my childhood range that built a heavy benchrest rifle chambered in .50 Spotter. I'd have gone one step further in the hipster scale and necked it down to .375 and blown out the shoulders", but that's just me. :)
That mysterious "C" reminded me of the Colt 1911 occurrence, Ian surely knows it, if he made no comment it must've been due to being knowledge-overloaded 😂 Anyway, for us mortals, when the 1911 began to be sold on the civilian market, each pistol's serial number would begin with a "C", never an "A", or "B" either, just like this case, excepting that I hardly doubt there's been a "civilian" version of the M40, leading me to humbly believe that it was the third model that became the _charm,_ and thus greenlighted for production/acquisition. Cheers.
Apparently it stood for "commercial", to separate them from military contract 1911s. A bit of googling suggests the prototype for the spotting rifle was called the T46, and the T46E3 model was the one that worked best, so perhaps that was why it's the C-model. Springfield Armory's collection website reveals it was designed by a chap called Earle Harvey, but the website is horrible to use and the links look like spam.
@UCmtAZswa1MukOcE1Xjm6yaA Seems you nailed it, Ashley. And thanks for the correction, of course, how dumb of mine, in the Colt case, the "C" would've been for "commercial", not "civilian", DOH! 🤦♂ Thanks also for the info on the prototypes! As a side note, isn't it funny that apparently the US began this whole "Technical" trend? - haha! Moreover, this just reminded me of the 1998 movie "Black Hawk Down", where some hostile technicals are using *a recoiless gun mounted on a flatbed truck,* before being surprised by Eric Bana & co. Ramblings aside, thanks for the reply and info again, have a great weekend!
@@juanordonezgalban2278 - perhaps additional uses. I recall reading that particular 20mm had an similar trajectory to the 120mm so it could be used to range find...along with an anti material role, anti personnel role, and etc. I did say 'just a little bit'.
Random fact: The Swedish 90 mm recoilless gun, Pansarvärnspjäs 1110 (Pvpj 1110), used a modified Ag m/42 rifle (Ljungman) as ranging gun under the designation Inskjutningsgevär 5110.
Also used in the British Army under the designation L40A1 (classed as '.50 Machine Gun' for some reason ), mounted on the L6 120mm WOMBAT recoiless rifle. The WOMBAT was known as " The VC Gun", due to the considerable amount of backdraught raised when firing, which basically negated the subtlety of using the spotting rifle after the first shot.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
This must be the most american telescope ive ever seen
More of a rangefinder, but I agree with the sentiment.
I believe lots of tanks/artillery from around the world used similar guns using tracers
@@zXPeterz14 Even rocket launchers and recoilless rifles use something like that. But it's 9mm tracers.
The bigger the more american it is
@@u2beuser714 russian 50cal is bigger than american bmg
There's an old sci-fi story that had automatic weapon systems based on this in a WW3 trench warfare scenario. Spotting rifles would randomly fire into various pieces of concealment in no-mans-land (an arctic wasteland, so lots of shifting snowdrifts and the like) with powerful directional microphones listening to the impact. Any metallic sound would immediately be followed up by an anti-tank round...
That is fucking awesome.
This is sound cool where is it from?
@@singedeguerre3028 Short story by Frank Herbert (yes, the Dune guy) called "Cease Fire". It's terrifying on multiple levels.
@@GaldirEonai thought it sounded familiar. I read a lot of early Frank Herbert after I had read dune. The "Bureau of Sabotage" series is my favorite.
@@dbmail545 Oh yes. Jorj McKie is such a fun character :D.
Legend has it that this "sighting gun" was itself sighted by a .357 S&W Magnum, which in turn was sighted using a .45 ACP Derringer. By the time the whole unit was properly sighted, half the enemy targets were already dead.
You forgot the rubber slingshot to sight the derringer and the rocks for throwing to sight the slingshot. My understanding is that your very first action was to spit into the air to gauge windage for the rocks.
LOL, great comment 😂😂
@brianmccarthy5557 the funny thing about this is, when you think about it, our most advanced infantry weaponry still just amounts to throwing rocks really, really hard 😂
Back in the 80's I was in the South African Army, and I can remember having a chat to a paratrooper who trained on the 106mm recoilless rifle. He specifically mentioned that the ballistic matching on the 12.7mm spotting round was pretty much perfect. The 106 would land exactly where the 12.7 landed every time.
Should have kept them around as cheap bunker busters.
I’ve seen one of these rounds explode in the chamber an pepper an M40 gunner in the chest with burning powder. Thankfully he wasn’t badly injured.
@@shawnc5188 Poor guy, hope he had a swift recovery!
@@thesaddestdude3575 Happened in early 1991, he had some minor burn marks on his neck and chest, but nothing major. I still remember that Lima Foxtrot incident as a USN MEU was sailing by on the way to GW1, and their comms jammed all our signal sets - some idiot repeating “Mercedes Now” over and over, so it wasn’t constructive as we were doing an infantry battalion heavy weapons shoot.
This method was used on tanks also. If you heard a single strong metalic bullet strike it was often followed by the main gun.
This solves a mystery for me. I had an empty 50cal cartridge in my pile of misc brass that was too short to be 50 BMG (12.7x99) and I didn't know what it was for. The headstamp was no help. Then while watching this I was like "Ah ha!" I went and measured it and yep, it was 12.7x77.
nice! How long did you live with that mystery?
What headstamp does it have?
But Headstamp Publishing was. (Thank you. I´m here all week)
@@redcat9436 One letter/number on each four ordinal points. F, A, O, 9
@@mr6johnclark About a decade. It was mixed in with some other items I had inherited.
We used to call the spotting rifle shot "Firing the Oh Round".
Because after that registers on target, they have about as long as it takes to say; "Oh!" before the M40 round hits.
I hated seeing those guns leave the arsenal. They were so versatile. It only took 5 Marines to carry it by hand when broken down into Gun tube, Tripod and T&E Block.
It's been very interesting to see what's happened to them since then though. A lot of spotting and training rifles have gone on to have some very unusual lives. In Ukraine right now they're actually repurposing barrel insert rifles which were made to train Soviet tank crews as heavy sniper rifles.
@@asteroidrules they’re inventive people, gotta hand it to them
@@WineScrounger A corollary to necessity being the mother of invention, is that it is perilous for a nation-state to inflict asymmetrical necessity on an enemy nation.
@@someweirdguyew9757 or indeed to make a nation its enemy. I’m sure Ukraine would have happily just carried on and left Russia alone.
Funny you should mention that. A decade or three ago when I was researching the 20-round mag I had, I read somewhere that gunners could clear out a building/bunker just by firing the spotting round in there. The occupants assumed the reckless round would be following shortly and took the opportunity to abandon the real estate.
These were used on the M50 Ontos (because it had the M40 recoilless rifles), and similar systems (with M2 Brownings) were used on the Centurions and Chieftain tanks for ranging their main guns. All predating laser rangefinders, obviously, which completely changed everything.
An useful info I'm about to exploit in Warthunder
Doesn't the SMAW used by the USMC have a 9mm ranging gun, though? Isn't that a little anachronistic? Or is it meant as a redundancy?
@@Warfaremachine0095 Check controls, you need to separate your spotting rifle from regular MGs because some of them have the same tracer colors.
@@Warfaremachine0095 I just tried it, they're not the same ballistic trajectory at all.
@@TheNorthHawk A redundancy would make sense. You never know what will happen.
Mounted one on my camera's telephoto lens, worked like a charm. The .50 really helps to make sure the wildlife stays still when I take their pictures
Amazing comment!
Wily Coyote School of Gunnery WCSOG!
Do you photograph weddings?
Back in 72, in 2/14 QMI ( light horse) we had an AT troop with M40s on Beachbuggy Landrovers.
I got to fire them.
Driver would locate vehicle in hull down shooting position, Gunner (me) would lay the gun with scope, Loader would chamber 106 round, clear Back Blast area, tap me on s shoulder, One round M48 50 Spotter to confirm lay, and Bang! 106mm Round on target, Loader Jumps aboard, Driver guns engine in reverse, and we Scoot to new position.
Great Times!
Doc AV
Ahh, the old shoot n' scoot berm drills. About the only time you can almost recklessly drive around a large dangerous vehicle in training (M113A3 in my case).
I’m sure it’s extremely common among vets but I’ll post it for everyone else anyway:
During the 50’s a relative serving in the British armed forces had a friend reprimanded after recklessly riding a motorcycle.
He was charged with:“Driving with excessive zeal.”
It’s always stuck with me as hilarious.
Now I think about it, it may actually have been my relative. Will edit and confirm.
Sounds familiar, except for me it was 77, 2PPCLI and jeeps. Last class before we switched to TOW.
You see Ivan, if we put gun on gun, gun will never miss
yes but Instead with more patriotic abilities
The russians did the same but on tanks
I was trained as a 106mm RG section commander in the '80s. The way we charge the spotting rifle was palms down n pull back, not palms up pull back (as shown 6'50" of the video). This was due to the sharp edges of the ejection port right about in the middle. You may cut yourself in the palm if you pull back with your palm facing upwards. It is safer to pull back with your thumb and pointer finger sliding along the rifle body, palms facing down. Just sharing. Nice to see this old bugger again after so many years.
I was trained as a M40 106mm gunner back in the 80s at Walvis bay in Namibia. We used to remove the bolt from the spotter and use a zeroing cap in the breech of the main gun to boresight the 2 systems together. Often using the church spire in town as our aiming point. Excellent video.
What do you mean by 'Zeroing cap'?
@@georgeau2523 It was a cap that went into the breech and had an aperture for bore sighting, spotting rifle and optical sight to the same point approx 1200m in the distance. Was part of the cleaning and maintenance kit.
We used these as part of a subcaliber training device on the M-60 tank. We mounted it on top of the main gun like we later mounted the M2. The vehicles we fired at were manned. We fired non-AP incendiary rounds at the up-armored M114s with steel plates welded on. This was in the 80s and sounds as primitive as all hell now - but it did at the time too.
I had an anti-tank platoon with 6 x 120mm WOMBAT recoilless AT rifles in Berlin (1981-83). They each had a 50 cal spotting rifle, but the trajectory of the spotting rounds was mismatched to the main armament, because the size, mass and low velocity of the HESH round meant that it not only arced in the vertical plane, but also (because of the rifling induced spin on its front-to-rear axis), it 'rolled' and drifted - consistently, I might add - to the right as it travelled.
Zeroing the system was a complicated affair, (telescope - dead straight LOS, 50 cal vertically parabolic trajectory, main armament parabolic trajectory on the V axis with a built-in right-hand Yaw on the H axis . . . )
Teaching the lesson "Theory of Zeroing" was very distinctly an Officer's Job, let me tell you 😀
Happy daze
I appreciate how you said "self loading" instead of semi-automatic. A lot of non-gun people are confused when they hear semi-automatic. They could think it´s a kind of automatic. And as always: great video.
Not to get too technical, but self-loading and semi-automatic ARE different things. Even a lot of gun people don't know the difference, but not all semi-automatics are self-loading.
@real pedroppp To qualify as semi-automatic, the gun only needs to eject the spent cartridge and possibly reset the striker. A self-loader also loads itself. A semi-automatic doesn't necessarily cycle, unless it's also self-loading.
@real pedroppp This is established terminology, self-ejecting isn't a thing.
This isn't about putting "self" and "loading" together and yelling "Aha! It loads itself!"
@real pedroppp Those are semi-automatic now.
@real pedroppp How do you figure?
SPOTTING rifle. I misread the title as sporting rifle. Now I’ve seen plenty of odd things marketed as sporting arms but I was about to say now this is a bit far but then I focused my eyes.
I just did exactly the same but I blame not having my glasses on.
Depends on what you think of as "Sporting." 😛
“Be vewwy vewwy quiet, i hunting panzer iv. Hehehehehe :D”
@@lairdcummings9092 I saw a Punt Gun being demonstrated a good number of years ago now & remember thinking that it didn't seem very sporting. [I know its not a rifle & is classed as a shotgun. But standing near it when it went off it seemed more like a canon using grapeshot]. Remember thinking at the time that I was amazed no one every employed them in WWI as a way of breaking up charges against the lines, would have been devastating.
@@Getpojke punt guns are notoriously slow to load; not very efficient. Machine guns did a bloodily effective job - no need for exotics.
I remember shooting the 106 back in the late 70's. The back blast was tearing chunks out of the asphalt behind the firing line. The trigger reminded me of a door know. Semper fi
The mk 153 SMAW has a 9mm version as well this is still a viable option for aiming shoulder launched anti-tank dumb rounds
9x51 SMAW is such a darn silly cartridge. It's 3 different cartridges jammed into one
My Dad was on an Ontos in Vietnam. He always praised this aiming system. The Museum of the America GI in College Station Texas has a fully restored M50 Ontos. It worth a look if your in the area.
Hopefully Ian see's your comment
Holy shit I'm a little ways down the road from there about 2 hours. Guess I've got a weekend trip in the making now.
You missed it this year, but in March the GI museum does a living history weedend. It awesome they actual run the Tanks in field behind the museum with a demo battle.
Sofilein posted a video at the museums living history weekend 2021 of my Dad describing M50 operations. Me and Dad had great time their and love that museum.
@@drollieascoliasm9667 Thanks - she posted the 2022 weekend Ontos a month ago.
We had these on our 120mm Conbat & Wombat anti- tank guns. Great watch. After a range day and all our 120mm hesh rounds were fired we would use up all the remaining spotting rounds on hard targets.
I thought they started with a Bren on the Mobat but I guess the round was too small.
@@mauricestainsby196 That's right, long before my time. Conbat, Wombat then Milan, that's my experiences.
Ian, from TM 9-1000-205-12 dated March 1959:
"Cal. .50 spotting rifle M8C is the only model spotting rifle covered in this
manual. As prescribed by MWO ORD B48-Wl, all rifles of early manufacture,
designated cal. .50 spotting rifle M8 will be converted to cal. .50 spotting
rifle M8C before issue. This modification consists of machining a counterbored
hole in the firing mechanism housing of cal. .50 spotting rifle M8
to permit installation of an electrical safety mechanism when the rifle is
used with multiple 106-mm full tracked self-propelled rifle M50 (TM
9-7222). A "C" is then stamped after the M8 designation on the receiver of
the rifle. This modification does not affect troop use or care within the
scope of this manual."
Saw one of those from up close a few weeks ago. The Brazilian Army had an antique weapons display and at the Brazilian Expeditionary Force section they had a M38A1C. My son is only 1 year old so i couldn't explain to him what it was, but took some pictures of him on the drivers seat to explain to him what it was in the future hahahaha Sadly it didn't had the magazine attached (for obvious reasons) so thank you for i was curious about it.
To fire the M40 recoiless rifle, you sit on a seat on one side and look through a telescopic sight. There are two crank wheels, one traverses and one elevates and depresses the rifle. You turn these cranks until you are on the target with the scope. The spotting rifle is fired by pulling a big nob out. It is a semiauto. The .50 cal. spotter rounds are all tracers. As soon as you get a hit with the spotter rifle, you push the nob in and the recoiless rifle fires, vitually instantly. When the M40 is fired, It feels like someone briefly stepped on your chest.
These remained in service with the Jeep-mounted106 in the armour defence platoons of Canadian Forces' reserve manoeuvre units into the 1980s. Their field stripping looks niggly and I am glad that I never had to do it in winter (I was never a 106 gunner).
Niggly, lolz
To install springs without kinking, pull bolt to rear, install springs into bolt. Press springs forward as you press bolt forward. Tension and latch plugs.
Im fairly certain that if you HAD TO a .50cal exploding tracer round would delete an emergent threat infantryman rather quickly, without you needing to offload the primary round
Accidentally, of course.
@@justforever96 Having been an AT platoon leader, if someone exposed himself two klicks away thinking he was safe, we might just kill him on general principles to remove him from the gene pool. You have to be judgmental, though. Do you really want to give away your AT position (remember, you're paid to kill tanks)
@@zoiders Recon by fire is best recon. 👍
If the AT guy is so unsupported that he has to use his spotting rounds for infantry, your tactics have already failed tremendously at the platoon level.
Well ya but a recoilless rifle isn't for single infantry targets, it's a replacement for bazookas. This is an anti armor or something you fire into fortified positions with multiple enemies
I've seen them in use with the M40. Very cool to see them used at night. Watching the tracer go down range then ricochet off the target. The M40 fired at night is something to behold.
A gentleman about 3 miles from me has a large collection of militaria, which he uses for re-enactments, photo shoots and parades. he has one of these in operating condition, mounted on a M40A2 Recoilless rifle, which in turn is mounted on a M38 Jeep. It's totally awesome.
that 12.7 x 77 would make an interesting sporting cartridge in a bolt action rifle
Are you hunting small buildings in the next zip code?
Hey! Just wait until *you're* attacked by a raging Eegee's!
Fun fact: Japanese Howa Type 64 7.62mm automatic rifle borrowed some of M8C's working principle (esp. the receiver).
Aw man. I read a book by a guy that crewed one of these during vietnam and have always been curious! The context y'all add to historical battles is superb!
my uncle use this in Italian Army during '60s he told me they where trained as a team on board of the FIAT Campagnola "jeep" armed with 106mm recoilless, they stop, aimed and fire the tracer, adjust fire the 106mm and run away of position... Don't forget to yell "attenti al 106!!" (pay attention to 106mm) when you fire !!
Its funny, that vehicle is in warthunder and can be played!
@@thesaddestdude3575 really ? I'm going to install that game
@@thesaddestdude3575different vehicles, the campagnola was a proper Willys inspired jeep. The 6614 is an armoured car.
I enjoyed this video. The M40 recoilless rifle 106mm was still in Marine Corps service when I was in boot camp and I saw a live-fire demonstration as part of my training. Later, when the Army sent me to an 80-hour Unit Armorer Course, the M40 and its spotting rifle were out of the inventory, but I learned that there were still some spotting rifles and ammunition in the supply system--probably wartime reserves or used as military aid. You've given me a detailed look on the innards of the M8C spotting rifle that I thought I'd never get.
So happy to see this as my dad crewed an M50 Ontos in Vietnam. He always talked about these.
Cool idea to make the round glow a different colour as it travels. Makes for an easy (if inaccurate) distance indicator.
Yeah its awesome.
In late 90s, I was at a gun range and met a guy who built 4 shot revolver (yes hand-gun) in .50 spotter, this round.
Hey, I love these spotting rifles! Possibly one of my favorite types of gun, something designed to NOT shot people, but still fires bullets like anything else. It's honestly quite interesting.
I’m putting a 22 rifle on top of all my AK47‘s in lieu of sights.
I like how you think. I'm gonna use my 106mm recoiless on my Davy Crockett.
I found some of these spotter tracer rounds, pulled bullets and loaded up for my 50BMG. They are impressive!
I hope you didn't use an inertia puller - despite the primers being recessed in the nose, those buggers are NOT smack-safe; hell, they're barely bore-safe. Had one go off about 15 yds downrange. My crew was extremely lucky that none of us got any WP burns.
There is a legend that all 6 guns of the Ontos were fired at once at Aberdeen Proving grounds, and the concussion from the firing blew out the glass in all the cars in the nearby parking lot....hence the need for a spotting round....as Ian indicates, the 106 is not a stealthy weapon.
I’ve had an inert spotting round like this for years. Never seen the rifle that it fits until now.
Funny thing about the mags being pretty common. I actually have a 20rnd one myself. Picked it a few years ago at a gun shop that was going out of business.
Thanks!
Not only I learn about guns on this channel (I was not interested in guns before, but Ian's presentation is great, and I like the mechanical aspects), but it also helps improve my poorly self-taught "English".
FINALLY I understood the word "kink" (and the "other" meaning) after Ian used it regarding that spring :-)
Superb description as always. Thanks Ian.
OOOOO. Sounds so smooth and seems so well engineered, simple and reliable was obviously the primary goal on the engineer's mind. That firing pin block/retractor is... top tier design.
Top tier design! Just like your beard!
WARNING from someone who had a platoon of 106's in a prior life. The spotting round is NOT DROP SAFE. If you drop it on its nose, it will detonate! That is the reason for the cardboard sleeve.
I had good gunners, despite what the book says, my guys were getting first round hits at 2000-2500 meters.
I asked the oldest sergeants and no one knew what the C stood for.
Thanks for all the work you put into this excellent, informative and entertaining channel, Ian.
If they mass produced a sporting version of the cartridge and bolt action rifle, I’d start saving up my pop cans
NICE! I have read about the 106's for years and have seen references to the spotting rifle, but nobody has gone into detail on the M8C, how it worked, or the very special ammo for it. As a bonus, in the next video we actually get to see it go BANG. Good stuff Ian!
Thanks for making this video, I've been wanting to see one of these since you mentioned it during the recoilless rifle video.
Thank you for showing me this. One of these hanging from the ceiling at the surplus store in North Las Vegas and I had no idea what it was. More knowledge
That's SO crazy but yet makes tons of sense.
Very cool!
Man I Love this channel!
Wonderful! I love the M8C, and I'm so happy to get such a good look at it!
Clean,simple, and efficient engineering. Cool!
The Brits adapted this for thier 120mm revoiless rifle as well. Seen them used night time fire at Camp Wainwright Alberta. Main gun & spotting rifle.
That's a total new genre for me, a spotting gun in .50 cal that shoots tracers. Nice.
GOD bless you all.
Forgotten vs Never Knew Existed Usually learn something of interest from our Host. Thank you Mr. M..
anyone else wanna see someone reform some brass to make some loads up in fmj and build a stock system for it to allow Ian to undertake a shooting match with it?
I now wish I had the talent and time to gather up a bunch of those 20 round magazines and make some kind of semi-auto rifle around them to fire that short .50 round. Style it like a massive M14, and chamber it in .50 Special.
Pretty sure the .50 spotter reamer is available.
It's silly but as somebody that's done a lot of texture work on 3d art I love the patina on that gun, it looks so nice.
I was surprised to learn about systems like this when I first heard of the Mk 153's spotting rifle, it's still cool to hear about them in other weapon systems.
Hey Ian! Mexican Army uses m40 recoiless rifles in an exposition i saw some years back with i think is one of these, i didnt know the name until this video popped up thanks!
Hmmm, pretty sure I remember these from the (UK) WOMBAT anti-tank gun, still in use up to the early '80s. Wombat was a 120mm recoilless rifle used by UK Army either towed by a land rover or mounted on top of a FV432 APC - UK analogue to the M113.
Name a better military acronym than WOMBAT: Weapon Of Magnesium, Batalion Anti-Tank.
@@Treblaine And the noise! Probably one reason (along with 84mm) that I'm deaf as
a post. 1 shot weapons in reality - but anything hit by 120mm squash head was going to be utterly buggered!
i've actually seen one if these spotting rifles on a recoiless rifle in a museum and it truely is a sight to behold
It's always nice to get videos of something I've never even heard of before.
Damn this is the earliest I've been to a video, it showed up in my sidebar while watching some random meme video. RUclips has blessed me.
I just realized that Ian McCollum is the firearms equivalent to Bob Ross. I think that's why I love this channel so much. 😉
Happy little rifles
Another great video, Keep up the good work and shoot safe
The Marine Corps’ SMAW used a spotting rifle. As I recall, it was chambered in a proprietary round made from 7.62 necked up to 9mm diameter. I was a machine gunner and my buddy a SMAW gunner. He once asked me for some 7.62 blanks. I didn’t know about the spotting rifle, so a very confused conversation followed.
7.62 necked up to 9mm sounds like an American spotting vintorez.
@@zoiders I vaguely recall seeing one of the spotting rounds and thought the case head looked odd. That would explain it. Thanks!
.358 Winchester is a necked up 7,62 case, .357 dia ,not .355 as 9x19 have , the Vintorez and other Russian 9mm is actually 9,3mm.
My dad was in Vietnam, he told me about these… Quality video!
We have some of these at the museum on Camp Pendleton! Always wondered what it’s nomenclature was, and there are M40’s as well!
“Self loading 50 caliber rifle” such beautiful words
Makes me go all weak in the knees
Sometime in my childhood of collecting I acquired one of these stubby .50 cal brass. It took my years to figure out what it was.
I've serviced the M8C before, this spotter uses a shortened 12.7×76mm cartridge that is ballistically matched to the M-40 (105mm) recoilless rifle. The military called its ammo 106mm to help prevent the accidental firing of the M-40 ammo in the earlier 105mm recoilless rifle, M-27. The 12.7x99mm of the M2/M3 service .50-cal machine-gun will not fit. I believe the (C) markings are due a clarification in the military model nomenclature. the term M8 was being used by the M8 greyhound scout car.
What a trip down memory lane! I trained on the first 106 At rifles" issued by the NZ Army they were a n amazing weapon in the day . the little sighting 50 cal had a n optical sight . when the splash showed a hit on the target instantly you smacked the firing knob ---& the main gun FIRED, once out of the tube the folded stabilising fins opened with a loud KRANg !! as the charge sped off to the target! Now it must be clearly understood--- NOW the whole district knows where you are ! a huge blast emerges from the rear of the weapon 20 yards long & 5 yards high! YOU DO Not hang about!! Ian show the main cartridge it explains a lot. t he Ontos thang mounts 6 or MORE of these ..imagine a main battery fire! thanks from an Ol KIWI this was 60 years ago
Dear lord. Another horror from the depths of the engineering lords dump pile. Thank you Ian for showing us this monstrosity
This thing actually seems like a pretty good plan and execution in an age before laser range finding
Horror? Monstrosity? You have no soul sir! :-D
And having led an AT platoon equipped with the M40A1 106mm, I can state that the M8C worked like a charm
Great video, Ian.
I knew these existed but this is the first one I've actually seen. Leave it to Ian!
This is why we don't get invaded even our scopes shoot AT rounds
Lul invaded my man you've already been conquered.
I'm honestly amazed they were able to design a mounting that not only allowed you to zero that thing to the main weapon, but KEPT it zeroed while the whole assemblage was bouncing around across rough terrain. That must've been a job and a half.
I don't think I've ever seen a 20rd .50 mag before. What an interesting piece of hardware.
Been waiting years for this one.
There was a gunsmith at my childhood range that built a heavy benchrest rifle chambered in .50 Spotter. I'd have gone one step further in the hipster scale and necked it down to .375 and blown out the shoulders", but that's just me. :)
That mysterious "C" reminded me of the Colt 1911 occurrence, Ian surely knows it, if he made no comment it must've been due to being knowledge-overloaded 😂
Anyway, for us mortals, when the 1911 began to be sold on the civilian market, each pistol's serial number would begin with a "C", never an "A", or "B" either, just like this case, excepting that I hardly doubt there's been a "civilian" version of the M40, leading me to humbly believe that it was the third model that became the _charm,_ and thus greenlighted for production/acquisition. Cheers.
Apparently it stood for "commercial", to separate them from military contract 1911s. A bit of googling suggests the prototype for the spotting rifle was called the T46, and the T46E3 model was the one that worked best, so perhaps that was why it's the C-model. Springfield Armory's collection website reveals it was designed by a chap called Earle Harvey, but the website is horrible to use and the links look like spam.
@UCmtAZswa1MukOcE1Xjm6yaA Seems you nailed it, Ashley. And thanks for the correction, of course, how dumb of mine, in the Colt case, the "C" would've been for "commercial", not "civilian", DOH! 🤦♂
Thanks also for the info on the prototypes!
As a side note, isn't it funny that apparently the US began this whole "Technical" trend? - haha! Moreover, this just reminded me of the 1998 movie "Black Hawk Down", where some hostile technicals are using *a recoiless gun mounted on a flatbed truck,* before being surprised by Eric Bana & co.
Ramblings aside, thanks for the reply and info again, have a great weekend!
"Okay, see that thing over there with the half inch hole in it?"
"Yeah."
"It needs a bigger hole."
That was the cutest cartridge that I've ever seen. There has to be some conversion kits to make other guns use it.
Always wanted to see a live one of these since I was a kid.
Reminds me, just a little, of the coaxial 20mm on a French AMX 40 MBT.
But that had a very different use
@@juanordonezgalban2278 - perhaps additional uses. I recall reading that particular 20mm had an similar trajectory to the 120mm so it could be used to range find...along with an anti material role, anti personnel role, and etc. I did say 'just a little bit'.
I tought the amx40 had a laser range finder already. But I can see it used on early amx30s that just had a coincidence one
Random fact:
The Swedish 90 mm recoilless gun, Pansarvärnspjäs 1110 (Pvpj 1110), used a modified Ag m/42 rifle (Ljungman) as ranging gun under the designation Inskjutningsgevär 5110.
Nice video Ian👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Australia used this also, attached to the M40, which we had mounted on a Jeep. Used by a 2 man team.
Also used in the British Army under the designation L40A1 (classed as '.50 Machine Gun' for some reason ), mounted on the L6 120mm WOMBAT recoiless rifle.
The WOMBAT was known as " The VC Gun", due to the considerable amount of backdraught raised when firing, which basically negated the subtlety of using the spotting rifle after the first shot.
A rifle as an aiming device.
This is peak "shoot first and ask questions later"
"Shoot first, then REALLY shoot later".
A flawless plan if ever there was one.
Warning shots are on a different scale when it comes to anti-tank warfare
i've found these casings at a range in pendleton and was really curious what they went to.
4:55 50 BMG (Browning machine gun) is 12.7x99
Very Interesting.
I have shot that Projectile out of my 50.
Lots of Fun !
Very interesting, thanks again for the great content.
10:34, "And that's how simple a self loading .50 caliber rifle can be"
Damn, someone needs to send this to Brandon Herrera
Things like this is why I watch forgotten weapons! 👍