After watching this video, would you trust using Bluetooth MIDI controllers? Thanks again to Distrokid for sponsoring the video! Get 7% off your first year of music distribution at distrokid.com/vip/taetro
So I own a korg nanokontrol studio, and while the bluetooth latency is roughly imperceptable while you keep playing it, if you pause for a second or two the first note is delayed, like it wakes up and then sends, you can get around this by tweaking the knobs the whole time. I wish I could bypass this
The latency problem in Bluetooth speakers is not only due to the size of the transmitted data but also stems from the conversion process from digital to analog that occurs in the speaker. The sound is transmitted as data via Bluetooth, and the speaker needs to convert it into an analog signal and then amplify it, which unfortunately takes time.
There is no difference in time between DA converter and amplifier in Bluetooth speaker and DA converter in audio interface and amplifier in wired speaker. The biggest delay happens in transmission of data before DA converter in Bluetooth speaker
Not true. If that was the problem, it would also be a problem for any DAC - including any digital audio interface or the built-in audio output on a laptop. The time to convert in the DAC is negligible. It's the polling time and transmission time (and sync) for larger audio streams under BT that is where the latency is introduced.
Converting audio from digital to analog and amplifying it is, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous What takes time in bluetooth audio is converting the raw PCM samples to the SBC codec and back to PCM on the receiver, I'm by no means an expert, but I noticed there seems to be a efficiency vs latency tradeoff in audio codecs, and since SBC was designed to be very easy to decode they had to have large frame sizes for it to have acceptable quality at a low enough bitrate Also theres probably a lot of buffering on the receiver side to mitigate the effects of packet loss
I picked up the MWAVE a few weeks ago and have been using it to do demo versions of my tracks on my iPad. It’s come in handy for when I don’t feel like going upstairs to deal with my iMac and my Launchkey 48 ;)
@@mirotation I haven’t noticed any delays at all. On the iPad I’m using Logic Pro For iPad, since on the iMac in my home studio I run Logic Pro. I’ve also been using the MWAVE via USB to play some things into the DAW when I don’t want to use a full-size keyboard.
I got an M-WAve week and had to return it the next day due to an unresponsive. These chinese products lack quality control and it's a gamble to get one perfectly working. But the build quality feels pretty solid for the price.
The M-Wave doesn't seem to be available in Canada. I have been wondering if there's bluetooth midi controllers since I work mostly work on my laptop, and also I want to go to a coffee shop and work on stuff on the go. Hopefully this tech gets more popular and more options become available.
You mean analog to digital and vice versa? Actually is only digital to analog when you connect to a speaker. Tge source is already digital. Is not double, and ADC And DAC has not the same conversion speeds
Thanks for th info. What about a live situation where there are lots of folks around having Bluetooth enabled on their phone without even realizing? Will that probably increase the risk of dropouts due to interference?
Hey Taetro, I've recently become a big fan of your channel! I was wondering what your opinion on Native Instruments tools such as Maschine or Komplete is?
My wireless midi controller doesn't work with windows 11. It connects through Bluetooth for a second and disconnects immediately and then nothing - windows 11 sees it but doesn't not connect.
@@melihefe123 I had same problem on Windows 10, solved by googling and installing this BLE driver from KORG KorgBleMidiSetup112r4 AND Even after you install this driver and pair the midi keyboard, bluetooth led still blinking UNTIL YOU OPEN softwares or plug-ins that use midi inputs I guess because it is in low-power-mode or something
just got mine today, and man, i cant tell you how happy i am with the purchase. its cheap but built like the best in the market. and yeah the latency is almost non existent
Question:I am a partner dance DJ who also plays some tesla coil midis/tracks from the onetesla forums on my small bluetooth tesla coil i have! I have a dreamto get a keyboard and do this live, BUT when i found a friend with a keyboard- they hardwired into my laptop, and we opened MidiEditor- he played some notes- it sounded awesome, but the latency was a WHOLE second. I think the small bluetooth tesla coil is similar to a bluetooth speaker- but the latency was worse than my BT speakers when i use them argh. Can a bluetooth midi keyboard connect straight to a bluetooth 'speaker' and eliminate most of the lag? My tesla coil CANNOT connect via hardline.... Is there any hope for me?(outside of prerecorded stuff?) /A electricity themed DJ who'd like to not just play pre-made stuff whenever i bust out the tesla coil, trying to solve latency...
I bought a bluetooth midi control and it has been absolutely worthless. I can't even get any Midi information. The manufacturer has been absolutely no help either.
hi, how is this m-vave smk-25 compared to the akai mpk 25? the price difference between them is huge(more than 50% on my end of the world), so hows your impression of m-vave smk-25 compared to its price? (would really help a lot, thankyou in advance.. i might be able to join beatober if ever....)
I bought one of these M-VAVE ones and they're pretty cool. TL;DR; Midi signals are tiny (a few bytes, not a stream of several hundred kilobytes per second of data) and the latency to send 3 bytes through MIDI is (while nonzero, and slower than wired midi) pretty much a non issue.
I just got my m vave 2 and i cant get it to bluetooth connect to my laptop and my pne says i need an app do you know what app i need and is yhe app the problem with my laptop
if you rushed to make this comment, I'll assume you didn't spend too much time trying to solve your problem! try watching the full video or finding another resource for connecting your keyboard
I‘m with you loving Bluetooth MIDI, having the Yamaha MD-BT01 and the CME WIDI Uhost to get DIN and USB MIDI Devices connected wirelessly. But you actually caught me with the JBL Flip, saying the Aux In has no delay. Because all my different brand Bluetooth speakers are having latency on their analogue inputs, probably because they A/D the audio and process it digitally, before airing it.
If I use my M-Vave with my GarageBand on my iPhone, it works perfectly. If I use it with FLStudio on my Lenovo Legion laptop, it has ridiculous latency. I’ve just decided to put it in the closet, and just stick with my wired Arturia controller.
Gonna try with FL Studio . But in Win 11 with Ableton and Bitwig I dont have so many issues with latency . Yeah it will have latency as stated in options page in ableton or bitwig . But still playable even for fast notes . Did you`ve used/ tried/installing midiberry from microsoft stores? Most my friends who used this M-Wave have problem with latency because they`d tried connecting using default bluetooth connection ( not using midiberry ones) . And one thing make sure in you have BT version 5 in your laptop or machines
Which is better: worlde orca 25 key or hoerev 25 keys Bluetooth?means working and knobs and presets changing ,please write fast , because I want buy it thanks .
comparing two keyboards is not so simple and depends on a lot of factors that are personal to you and your workflow/priorities. if you have a clear understanding of your needs, the controller of choice will be more obvious. So probably wait until you have a strong grasp on what you need before making a purchase. OR flip a coin. pick one randomly, and don't look back.
even high quality on stage in ear monitors have latency. i prefer all my stuff with wires. even 8bit midi streams have issues when you play polyphonically and use controllers. use a the usb midi, much better.
Question. I have an Arturia Keystep 37 and would like to connect to my Android Tablet & phone via BT (as well as my Win laptop). Using Arturia's Analog DAW on Windows and FL Studio Mobile on Android. Since the 37 has traditional MIDI IN/OUT connectors, I'm guessing I could use something like a WIDI device to allow MIDI transmission via BT. M-Wave has a cheaper alternative called the MS1 that appears to work similarly to the WIDI. Is doing something like this possible? Anyone actually do it with a 37 or other Arturia controller? Thanks.
Im new to your channel, i really like Ble, i even built my owns ble controller for guitar and a whammy bar shape. I just wanted to point out that the jbe speaker can induced some latency even when connected by 3.5mm cable. That is because of the internal dsp that it uses to "colorize" the music. I would use a Flat response speaker instead
I'm not a big fan of your testing methods. I would have ran an audio line into your interface and synced the audio in with the metronome and then compare it to the wireless midi signal.
@@nnnyel I went with the m-vave I couldn’t pass it as it was on a mega special only paid $60 and well it’s my first midi so fuck it. So far it’s ok I honestly wouldn’t recommend it as when I plugged it into Fl studio you had to do all this extra shit just to get it to work when other devices seem like plug and play even the akai would of been better but oh well I’ll make the best of it
It's not surprising that Bluetooth struggles with audio; after all, it was designed by Nokia for a narrow-bandwidth mono mobile phone. PS It is named after a Danish King.
latency and bluetooth codecs and audio file formats is rough and midi is totally not the same as that. the size of a piece of midi data is so dang tiny. you doing people a favor here
I've been using Distrokid for almost two years now and I had no idea I could collect emails. Thank you for sharing this. I'm okay with hooking up my gear until the technology catches up since my studio setup is still stationary.
@@MT-on4hn you should get what appeals to you the most, sometimes this can be a process, buy one, if you don’t like it just return it and get the other. You can always get a launchkey mini and a widi jack
Sorry, why not just use a cable? I don't understand why one would use BT for such use cases. A cable is not a problem at all for a midi device, you need a power supply cable anyway.
I'm guessing for producers that are constantly on the go; makes things a little easier to not have to worry about remember every single cable. Happened to me a few years back when I was on vacation... I picked up the wrong cable and I couldn't make music for a week. BT MIDI and speakers would've helped. LOL
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
After watching this video, would you trust using Bluetooth MIDI controllers? Thanks again to Distrokid for sponsoring the video! Get 7% off your first year of music distribution at distrokid.com/vip/taetro
So I own a korg nanokontrol studio, and while the bluetooth latency is roughly imperceptable while you keep playing it, if you pause for a second or two the first note is delayed, like it wakes up and then sends, you can get around this by tweaking the knobs the whole time.
I wish I could bypass this
there’s gotta be a setting to fix this. It’s like a power saving option or something
@@ZombieLincoln666 adjusted the lot, I still just use a cable because wireless actually sucks
The latency problem in Bluetooth speakers is not only due to the size of the transmitted data but also stems from the conversion process from digital to analog that occurs in the speaker. The sound is transmitted as data via Bluetooth, and the speaker needs to convert it into an analog signal and then amplify it, which unfortunately takes time.
💯 agree with this
There is no difference in time between DA converter and amplifier in Bluetooth speaker and DA converter in audio interface and amplifier in wired speaker. The biggest delay happens in transmission of data before DA converter in Bluetooth speaker
Not true. If that was the problem, it would also be a problem for any DAC - including any digital audio interface or the built-in audio output on a laptop. The time to convert in the DAC is negligible. It's the polling time and transmission time (and sync) for larger audio streams under BT that is where the latency is introduced.
@@magiceye4656 Don't agree, as it's wrong...
Converting audio from digital to analog and amplifying it is, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous
What takes time in bluetooth audio is converting the raw PCM samples to the SBC codec and back to PCM on the receiver, I'm by no means an expert, but I noticed there seems to be a efficiency vs latency tradeoff in audio codecs, and since SBC was designed to be very easy to decode they had to have large frame sizes for it to have acceptable quality at a low enough bitrate
Also theres probably a lot of buffering on the receiver side to mitigate the effects of packet loss
I picked up the MWAVE a few weeks ago and have been using it to do demo versions of my tracks on my iPad. It’s come in handy for when I don’t feel like going upstairs to deal with my iMac and my Launchkey 48 ;)
Do you have any delays ? And what app are you using ? :)
@@mirotation I haven’t noticed any delays at all. On the iPad I’m using Logic Pro For iPad, since on the iMac in my home studio I run Logic Pro. I’ve also been using the MWAVE via USB to play some things into the DAW when I don’t want to use a full-size keyboard.
@@CJMarsicanoPA did you try out bluetooth in logic on iPad ? :)
Hey I'm having problems with this exact midi, It's not connecting or working and i'm confused how to connect it to my iphone.
I picked up the black MVave a few months ago and it’s been rock solid.
thank for what you doing, really helpful! i still prefering wires in my liveset
I got an M-WAve week and had to return it the next day due to an unresponsive. These chinese products lack quality control and it's a gamble to get one perfectly working. But the build quality feels pretty solid for the price.
The M-Wave doesn't seem to be available in Canada. I have been wondering if there's bluetooth midi controllers since I work mostly work on my laptop, and also I want to go to a coffee shop and work on stuff on the go. Hopefully this tech gets more popular and more options become available.
MIDI is D to D while Audio needs A to D and D to A for monitoring which needs processing twice and hence the the RTL.
You mean analog to digital and vice versa? Actually is only digital to analog when you connect to a speaker. Tge source is already digital. Is not double, and ADC And DAC has not the same conversion speeds
Thanks for th info. What about a live situation where there are lots of folks around having Bluetooth enabled on their phone without even realizing? Will that probably increase the risk of dropouts due to interference?
Hey Taetro, I've recently become a big fan of your channel! I was wondering what your opinion on Native Instruments tools such as Maschine or Komplete is?
My wireless midi controller doesn't work with windows 11. It connects through Bluetooth for a second and disconnects immediately and then nothing - windows 11 sees it but doesn't not connect.
Did you find any solution for that?
@@melihefe123 no. Connecting through usb.
on my win11 doesn't work even wireless headphones
@@melihefe123 I had same problem on Windows 10, solved by googling and installing this BLE driver from KORG KorgBleMidiSetup112r4 AND
Even after you install this driver and pair the midi keyboard, bluetooth led still blinking UNTIL YOU OPEN softwares or plug-ins that use midi inputs
I guess because it is in low-power-mode or something
just got mine today, and man, i cant tell you how happy i am with the purchase. its cheap but built like the best in the market. and yeah the latency is almost non existent
The LUMI is probably the best bluetooth MIDI device on the market rn but that price tag makes me feel faint
Thanks man, one thing you haven't done is how you connect by Bluetooth. My Pc can't connect though.
Question:I am a partner dance DJ who also plays some tesla coil midis/tracks from the onetesla forums on my small bluetooth tesla coil i have! I have a dreamto get a keyboard and do this live, BUT when i found a friend with a keyboard- they hardwired into my laptop, and we opened MidiEditor- he played some notes- it sounded awesome, but the latency was a WHOLE second. I think the small bluetooth tesla coil is similar to a bluetooth speaker- but the latency was worse than my BT speakers when i use them argh.
Can a bluetooth midi keyboard connect straight to a bluetooth 'speaker' and eliminate most of the lag? My tesla coil CANNOT connect via hardline.... Is there any hope for me?(outside of prerecorded stuff?)
/A electricity themed DJ who'd like to not just play pre-made stuff whenever i bust out the tesla coil, trying to solve latency...
Regardless, if there is Bluetooth audio involved, there will be too much latency
I bought a bluetooth midi control and it has been absolutely worthless. I can't even get any Midi information. The manufacturer has been absolutely no help either.
I've only had good experience with bluetooth MIDI controllers, what controller did you buy?
hi, how is this m-vave smk-25 compared to the akai mpk 25? the price difference between them is huge(more than 50% on my end of the world), so hows your impression of m-vave smk-25 compared to its price? (would really help a lot, thankyou in advance.. i might be able to join beatober if ever....)
My question is if you can, idk, plug like three of these over BT and jam out with my buds?
This has cleared up a lot of my questions. I want to make midi controllers but only want them to be bluetooth. Thanks for the video!
the only latency matters is when midi keyboad are using for FPS shooter game :) in the end it just keyboard with specific command.
I bought one of these M-VAVE ones and they're pretty cool. TL;DR; Midi signals are tiny (a few bytes, not a stream of several hundred kilobytes per second of data) and the latency to send 3 bytes through MIDI is (while nonzero, and slower than wired midi) pretty much a non issue.
How are the M-VAVES controller now? do you think they're good for long term?
I just got my m vave 2 and i cant get it to bluetooth connect to my laptop and my pne says i need an app do you know what app i need and is yhe app the problem with my laptop
What happens when the battery dies though?(as all batteries do)
With the unit still power up from USB?
what happens when I die? (as all humans do)
@Taetro I guess you don't know either .
The battery cannot be removed so if it's dead it's possible that the unit doesn't power on anymore either.
@@colin109 ig I would just power up from the usb. Also I think it's not that hard to replace the battery by your own
Excellent video, really informative. Many thanks.
My smk II is not connecting via Bluetooth?
does any of the M-VAVE series work on Mac M1? i found some seller say that it only work on Phone, would buy if it work tho
M Vave: keyboard feel? What are you impressions of same?
Nothing to write home about, pretty standard mini Keybed
absolutely not, I have SMK 25 just arrived and I cant even connect to bluetooth
if you rushed to make this comment, I'll assume you didn't spend too much time trying to solve your problem! try watching the full video or finding another resource for connecting your keyboard
I‘m with you loving Bluetooth MIDI, having the Yamaha MD-BT01 and the CME WIDI Uhost to get DIN and USB MIDI Devices connected wirelessly. But you actually caught me with the JBL Flip, saying the Aux In has no delay. Because all my different brand Bluetooth speakers are having latency on their analogue inputs, probably because they A/D the audio and process it digitally, before airing it.
If I use my M-Vave with my GarageBand on my iPhone, it works perfectly. If I use it with FLStudio on my Lenovo Legion laptop, it has ridiculous latency. I’ve just decided to put it in the closet, and just stick with my wired Arturia controller.
May i ask when you use the cable is the latency still noticable?
@@tracydao763 It does still lag, but not nearly as bad.
Gonna try with FL Studio . But in Win 11 with Ableton and Bitwig I dont have so many issues with latency . Yeah it will have latency as stated in options page in ableton or bitwig . But still playable even for fast notes . Did you`ve used/ tried/installing midiberry from microsoft stores? Most my friends who used this M-Wave have problem with latency because they`d tried connecting using default bluetooth connection ( not using midiberry ones) . And one thing make sure in you have BT version 5 in your laptop or machines
@@tracydao763 I can assure you that just fine . Check my another comment above
hey how do i connect it to my phone? it won't show up and i have been trying for months lol
has anybody used it with FL? can not connect!!...
Yes mine connected straight away works the same as my Akai MPK
Which is better: worlde orca 25 key or hoerev 25 keys Bluetooth?means working and knobs and presets changing ,please write fast , because I want buy it thanks .
I would do a little more research. No need to buy it fast. Lots of videos on this channel can help you
@@Taetro Ofcourse,m wave is better or audio axiom air 32 mini?
comparing two keyboards is not so simple and depends on a lot of factors that are personal to you and your workflow/priorities. if you have a clear understanding of your needs, the controller of choice will be more obvious. So probably wait until you have a strong grasp on what you need before making a purchase.
OR
flip a coin. pick one randomly, and don't look back.
Do you know if the m-vave controller is good for fl studio?
even high quality on stage in ear monitors have latency. i prefer all my stuff with wires. even 8bit midi streams have issues when you play polyphonically and use controllers. use a the usb midi, much better.
Thank you for the great informations here.
Also, the all black M-Vave, damn!! 😍 I guess I just chose my first midi controller ever!
Question. I have an Arturia Keystep 37 and would like to connect to my Android Tablet & phone via BT (as well as my Win laptop). Using Arturia's Analog DAW on Windows and FL Studio Mobile on Android. Since the 37 has traditional MIDI IN/OUT connectors, I'm guessing I could use something like a WIDI device to allow MIDI transmission via BT. M-Wave has a cheaper alternative called the MS1 that appears to work similarly to the WIDI. Is doing something like this possible? Anyone actually do it with a 37 or other Arturia controller? Thanks.
Can M-Vave also be used wired too?
yes
Im new to your channel, i really like Ble, i even built my owns ble controller for guitar and a whammy bar shape. I just wanted to point out that the jbe speaker can induced some latency even when connected by 3.5mm cable. That is because of the internal dsp that it uses to "colorize" the music. I would use a Flat response speaker instead
no issues with a wired connection!
MIDI over Bluetooth is okay, because we are talking just a few kb transmitted, whereas even Mp3/AAC is 250-300 kb/s and CD quality over 1mb/s.
I'm not a big fan of your testing methods. I would have ran an audio line into your interface and synced the audio in with the metronome and then compare it to the wireless midi signal.
You should start a channel!
yo taetro can i make an edit of you? if your comfortable with that and im pretty good lol
How you connected the smk-25 by Bluethoot?
Man i tried a lot but i can't
I’m trying to pick between this device and the korg 😭
What did you end up getting?
@@nnnyel I went with the m-vave I couldn’t pass it as it was on a mega special only paid $60 and well it’s my first midi so fuck it. So far it’s ok I honestly wouldn’t recommend it as when I plugged it into Fl studio you had to do all this extra shit just to get it to work when other devices seem like plug and play even the akai would of been better but oh well I’ll make the best of it
5:47 you clearly hit the button late lol
It's not surprising that Bluetooth struggles with audio; after all, it was designed by Nokia for a narrow-bandwidth mono mobile phone.
PS It is named after a Danish King.
👑 good king Bluetooth
latency and bluetooth codecs and audio file formats is rough and midi is totally not the same as that. the size of a piece of midi data is so dang tiny. you doing people a favor here
Thx dude
No problem!
I've been using Distrokid for almost two years now and I had no idea I could collect emails.
Thank you for sharing this.
I'm okay with hooking up my gear until the technology catches up since my studio setup is still stationary.
The drum pads suck on those m-waves but the Bluetooth is okay,, glitches out every now and again
Should i get panda mini 2 or this m-vave 25 midi?!
@@MT-on4hn you should get what appeals to you the most, sometimes this can be a process, buy one, if you don’t like it just return it and get the other. You can always get a launchkey mini and a widi jack
What program use?
ableton live
Will you try the m-vave SMK-25 II?
Where's that? Didn't find it on Amazon
@@taimaishu99 the video is on the m-vave channel on youtube. It didn’t release yet
Bro we use it for comp gaming 😅it’s fine for music
Sounds like you know a lot!
How do we charge it 😂
Cme! Almost no latency. I have 10 of them
❤❤❤
muchas gracias.
Sorry, why not just use a cable? I don't understand why one would use BT for such use cases. A cable is not a problem at all for a midi device, you need a power supply cable anyway.
I'm guessing for producers that are constantly on the go; makes things a little easier to not have to worry about remember every single cable.
Happened to me a few years back when I was on vacation... I picked up the wrong cable and I couldn't make music for a week. BT MIDI and speakers would've helped. LOL
@@RealDLMusic not really, they would've been out of charge after 4 hours LOL
@@em_the_beedepends on which you're using, some of them have options for AAA batteries which you can find anywhere. Or plug a power bank into it.
iPad Production is the reason I'm looking into. I don't like having to use a dongle, a powered hub, etc...
@@em_the_bee i`ve been doing stress test about this one . And Its working fine for more than two days without need recharging
There is no aux port on the flip 6 because they suck ass and thier dsp sucks ass
what that's lame!!
🥇🏆🎉❤ I Dream of Wires 🙀
ew no
Hahahhaha
😮😮😮😮😮